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DB-Freak
01-04-2009, 02:33 PM
2 safeties that need to be replaced.

Good, but aging starting corners and behind is young inexperienced ones.

Linebackers who are only solid at best or backups at best.

A DL that is filled with question marks and average players.


Face it... this defense will be mediocore to horrid for the next few years at least.

Lets face it and start rebuilding thru the draft and not bring in overpriced FA's.

Inkana7
01-04-2009, 02:35 PM
2 Years.

WolfpackGuy
01-04-2009, 02:35 PM
Just an improvement to average would be huge.

DB-Freak
01-04-2009, 02:36 PM
average will get u tooled in the playoffs.

TheDave
01-04-2009, 02:37 PM
Becoming great may never happen... but with this offense average would be enough.

Problem is average will take 2-3 years.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 02:38 PM
average will get u tooled in the playoffs.


Average would have gotten us into the playoffs this year ;D

SonOfLe-loLang
01-04-2009, 02:40 PM
I dont think its ever been great and ive been a broncos fan for 20+ years. Just needs to be 10th-15th overall with our O

NFLBRONCO
01-04-2009, 02:41 PM
3 yrs (6 starters needed)

Denver needs to revamp whole D.

CB- Denver needs starter youth
S- Both spots need upgrading
LB- We need a leader at MLB
DT- We need another one
DE- A pass rush in Denver please

NUB
01-04-2009, 02:42 PM
It's lacking a leader. That is huge. I think someone like Al Wilson (not the Al Wilson) to help inspire the defense and make sure people are where they're supposed to be could really do wonders. Whenever the defense got down this past season you could not pick out any single player who was helping stem the tide whatsoever. It lacked heart.

It also lacked skills; which could be alleviated or at least leveraged by a competent defensive coach or defensive-minded/tutored head coach.

I really don't think talent was ever the issue with our defense, but instead the above missing facets.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 02:43 PM
It's lacking a leader. That is huge. I think someone like Al Wilson (not the Al Wilson) to help inspire the defense and make sure people are where they're supposed to be could really do wonders. Whenever the defense got down this past season you could not pick out any single player who was helping stem the tide whatsoever. It lacked heart.

It also lacked skills; which could be alleviated or at least leveraged by a competent defensive coach or defensive-minded/tutored head coach.

I really don't think talent was ever the issue with our defense, but instead the above missing facets.


woodyard he just needs to get some reps.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 02:44 PM
3 yrs (6 starters needed)

Denver needs to revamp whole D.

CB- Denver needs starter youth
S- Both spots need upgrading
LB- We need a leader at MLB
DT- We need another one
DE- A pass rush in Denver please

Shopping champ could address a few defensive needs.

footstepsfrom#27
01-04-2009, 02:44 PM
Becoming great may never happen... but with this offense average would be enough.

Problem is average will take 2-3 years.
I see no reason to be satisfied with average. We need to expect this new regime to commit to them being the best. I keep hearing all we need is a decent D to win the Superbowl. I disagree...two years of excellent drafts and a key FA or two would do it.

Jens1893
01-04-2009, 02:45 PM
Just having a "competent" defense is the best we can hope and aim for. It´s pretty much impossible to have a great offense and a great defense in this day and age and I think it´s fair to say our offense is a whole lot closer to "greatness" and has a lot more pieces in place than our D. Having a defense that´s ranked somewhere around 10 should be enough to make a decent run.

lex
01-04-2009, 02:45 PM
It depends on if we pick the right coach. But really, Id settle for a good defense. Our offense isnt even great really.

DB-Freak
01-04-2009, 02:47 PM
This team is compared to the KC team few years ago.

Expect their O was actually top ranked while ours isn't.

We need a great D not just a decent to support this O.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 02:47 PM
It depends on if we pick the right coach. But really, Id settle for a good defense. Our offense isnt even great really.


It's an average defense away from being great jay having to consitantly outscore the piss poor defense kept him from moving up to another level.

baja
01-04-2009, 02:48 PM
just firing Slowik will give us two more wins. ;D

TheDave
01-04-2009, 02:49 PM
I see no reason to be satisfied with average. We need to expect this new regime to commit to them being the best. I keep hearing all we need is a decent D to win the Superbowl. I disagree...two years of excellent drafts and a key FA or two would do it.

I'm all for that... problem is, we have the worst D in the league. Yes i know Detroit and St. Louis ranked behind us but they had whoeful offenses that made their D that much worse. This defense is soooo pathetic average would be a significant improvement. Then we can start the how do we become great talk.

WolfpackGuy
01-04-2009, 02:49 PM
The defense the last two years has been totally horrendous. They don't stop anybody, they don't get sacks, they don't get turnovers, they don't gamble to GET sacks or turnovers, etc, etc. Any improvement in those areas would be good for 3-4 more wins with the offense in place.

NFLBRONCO
01-04-2009, 02:49 PM
just firing Slowik will give us two more wins. ;D

Sad but, true Baja

Jens1893
01-04-2009, 02:50 PM
How do you define "great" anyway?

DB-Freak
01-04-2009, 02:50 PM
Average would have gotten us into the playoffs this year ;D

Well I didnt wanna see manning break records against us.

Inkana7
01-04-2009, 02:51 PM
How do you define "great" anyway?

See: The Ravens today.

DB-Freak
01-04-2009, 02:51 PM
How do you define "great" anyway?

at least top 5 in both yards and points allowed for a sustained period of years.

Rocket 7
01-04-2009, 02:51 PM
Another playmaker like Al Wilson. Defense went to hell when he was gone.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 02:52 PM
I'm all for that... problem is, we have the worst D in the league. Yes i know Detroit and St. Louis ranked behind us but they had whoeful offenses that made their D that much worse. This defense is soooo pathetic average would be a significant improvement. Then we can start the how do we become great talk.


Yep i agree unless you're really lucky and some players turn out really good but the focus should be just playing decent consistant defense then try an add the peices to make it great.

TheDave
01-04-2009, 02:52 PM
just firing Slowik will give us two more wins. ;D

There is some truth to that... BUT... I think people will be shocked at how few defensive players are on this team in a couple of years.

This might be the least talented Defense Denver has ever had.

Popps
01-04-2009, 02:52 PM
Becoming great may never happen... but with this offense average would be enough.

Problem is average will take 2-3 years.

I think this statement is true provided we were running the ball like we did with Hillis in there. Outside of that, we had some problems scoring. (Middle of the pack, stat-wise.) Certainly a good D helps take pressure off the offense, but we really need that running game to make it all work.

I think the Giants and New England provided a nice template of how to win in this era of football. It's probably tough to be totally dominant on either side of the ball, but you can be above average on both... and pick your play-makers carefully.

DB-Freak
01-04-2009, 02:54 PM
Hillis will come back down to earth soon.

Lets find some legit RBs first.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 02:54 PM
Well I didnt wanna see manning break records against us.



Me either but the general concencus around here ( was to just make the playoffs) then get destroyed i like the having a defense that can take us deep into the playoffs. But folks around here wouldn't be bitching quit as much if we have made the playoffs ( i wasn't one of them)

footstepsfrom#27
01-04-2009, 02:55 PM
Shopping champ could address a few defensive needs.
As bad as I hate to see that, I can see the wisdom of getting top value for him now rather than waiting and hoping he maintains his level of excellence past when we'd reasonably expect it. Will Champ be a top shelf corner in three years? That might be the time frame before we're championship caliber.

TheDave
01-04-2009, 02:55 PM
Yep i agree unless you're really lucky and some players turn out really good but the focus should be just playing decent consistant defense then try an add the peices to make it great.

There are just too many holes to fill... 2 safties, MLB, 2 DE's

That's 5 of 11 players just to get to average.

Jens1893
01-04-2009, 02:58 PM
See: The Ravens today.

Or Pittsburgh, for that matter ... but all teams in today´s NFL are somewhat one sided and it is EXTREMELY hard to assemble "great" units on both side of the ball.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 02:58 PM
Hillis will come back down to earth soon.

Lets find some legit RBs first.


I agree somewhat currently we were ranked 12th in rushing this year ( not bad for a bunch of rag tag RBs and a cell phone manager i think we could let this need slide until 2010 and focus on defense in 09.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 02:59 PM
There are just too many holes to fill... 2 safties, MLB, 2 DE's

That's 5 of 11 players just to get to average.

No one said it was going to be easy dave ;D but a defensive minded HC could work with the new DC and play it smart you never know what could happen.

WolfpackGuy
01-04-2009, 03:02 PM
I don't have a problem trading Champ. When's the last time (if any time) a shutdown corner led a team to a title? And no, Deion Sanders in 94 and 95 doesn't count.

footstepsfrom#27
01-04-2009, 03:02 PM
I'm all for that... problem is, we have the worst D in the league. Yes i know Detroit and St. Louis ranked behind us but they had whoeful offenses that made their D that much worse. This defense is soooo pathetic average would be a significant improvement. Then we can start the how do we become great talk.
That's why I favor a coach who is highly aggressive in his approach to change, somebody who will come in here and slash and burn his way to superiority the way Johnson did with the Cowboys. Look how fast the offense turned around through the draft. From 2005 with Jake, an ageing Rod Smith, a couple of backs that were running out of time and an O-line that had serious problems, we've gone to the best young QB in the league, probably a top 5 O-line, excellent receivers and TE's and we're one franchise back away from the complete package. We need draft picks...lots of them...to get this done. We have a few pieces in place so it's not like every spot has to be changed out. If the offense can flip within the time it has why not the defense as well?

Inkana7
01-04-2009, 03:04 PM
I don't have a problem trading Champ. When's the last time (if any time) a shutdown corner led a team to a title? And no, Deion Sanders in 94 and 95 doesn't count.

Because that's when a shutdown corner DID lead a team to a title?

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 03:05 PM
I don't have a problem trading Champ. When's the last time (if any time) a shutdown corner led a team to a title? And no, Deion Sanders in 94 and 95 doesn't count.


Question: is champ worth more ( in trade value) in 09 or less in 2010 hes not getting any younger? it just might be the right time to move him for maximum value.

WolfpackGuy
01-04-2009, 03:07 PM
Because that's when a shutdown corner DID lead a team to a title?
My question was sort of a trick question. LOL
Those defenses were LOADED before getting Deion.
Maybe by the time the rest of the defense improves, they can bring in Asomugha to be that final piece.

Popps
01-04-2009, 03:08 PM
There are just too many holes to fill... 2 safties, MLB, 2 DE's

That's 5 of 11 players just to get to average.

For sure... but even the addition of one dominant DE would go a long way.

Add a competent MLB, and we're even further along.

Barrett can probably be developed. Bly/Bailey will be fine.

I'd like to see Woodyard back out there and Williams either traded or moved over to the other side.

Thomas/Robertson should work... and we have the run-stuffing kid returning at DT.

Basically, add a top-flight DE and S, shuffle personnel a little and draft defense-heavy, and a good coordinator could have that group competing.

cabronco
01-04-2009, 03:11 PM
As bad as I hate to see that, I can see the wisdom of getting top value for him now rather than waiting and hoping he maintains his level of excellence past when we'd reasonably expect it. Will Champ be a top shelf corner in three years? That might be the time frame before we're championship caliber.


As much as I would hate to see Champ leave us, it would be for the better long term, imo. We have alot of holes to fill on defense, and this would be the quickest way to get to a half way decent D. We just need to find the perfect team that thinks a player like Champ will get them to the Superbowl now, and give up draft picks ( high) for him. Build from the d-line on back.

footstepsfrom#27
01-04-2009, 03:11 PM
There are just too many holes to fill... 2 safties, MLB, 2 DE's

That's 5 of 11 players just to get to average.
Barrett might be the answer at one safety and Larsen might answer the question at MLB since I doubt the new coach will keep him at FB. He's a meat eater which is what we need in there next to DJ. We also don't know if Moss will finally jump to the next level once he gets good coaching, and it's a mistake to rule Elvis out since his injury this year impacted him. If just two of these things work out, say Barrett and Larsen...we're halfway home. Two really nice drafts would do it.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 03:11 PM
There are just too many holes to fill... 2 safties, MLB, 2 DE's

That's 5 of 11 players just to get to average.


Well with the state of the offense being pretty good it would seem fairly wise to get to work on the D.

Popps
01-04-2009, 03:12 PM
My question was sort of a trick question. LOL
Those defenses were LOADED before getting Deion.
Maybe by the time the rest of the defense improves, they can bring in Asomugha to be that final piece.

Precisely.

No one has sung Champ's praises around here more than me. He's the best football player on this team and I love watching him play. But, top-flight CBs are a luxury teams should afford themselves after having their front 7 fortified.

Back when Shanahan was going CB-crazy, a few of us were on these boards asking why we were building the defense from the back-forward. Look at the product out there, and its' pretty apparent why we were asking that question. It's ass-backwards.

The problem is, I don't know that Bailey brings much in trade. He's been banged up and really not much of a factor the past couple of years. When healthy, teams have simply avoided him.

Same with DJ Williams... trade value is probably marginal, so you're probably better finding a way to make it work.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 03:13 PM
As much as I would hate to see Champ leave us, it would be for the better long term, imo. We have alot of holes to fill on defense, and this would be the quickest way to get to a half way decent D. We just need to find the perfect team that thinks a player like Champ will get them to the Superbowl now, and give up draft picks ( high) for him. Build from the d-line on back.


Exactly...

footstepsfrom#27
01-04-2009, 03:15 PM
As much as I would hate to see Champ leave us, it would be for the better long term, imo. We have alot of holes to fill on defense, and this would be the quickest way to get to a half way decent D. We just need to find the perfect team that thinks a player like Champ will get them to the Superbowl now, and give up draft picks ( high) for him. Build from the d-line on back.
How long is Champ under contract for? He probably doesn't want to stick around for a rebuilding job anyway. I wonder what he'd bring if we traded him now? It would have to be a team that's close to the championship and willing to maybe give us 2 #1's I'm thinking. But then you're looking at those picks being near the end of the first round instead of top 10. Certainly though, having 4 #1's in the next two years plus a lot of lower picks would give us real leverage to move near the top of the draft. I don't know if this draft is the one to do that or not but it is an intriguing possibility.

WolfpackGuy
01-04-2009, 03:17 PM
The way the rules are set up today, shutdown corners aren't as valuable as say a couple DL's who can get to the QB. Champ was brought in to combat the Colts, but all that got Denver was 6 points closer in a first round road playoff blowout. (41-10 to 49-24) AND, Shanahan seemed to forget about LT and LJ which has prevented the Broncos from even winning their own division. If last year's Super Bowl didn't prove to anybody that a strong DL is key in today's game, then I don't know what will.

footstepsfrom#27
01-04-2009, 03:31 PM
The way the rules are set up today, shutdown corners aren't as valuable as say a couple DL's who can get to the QB. Champ was brought in to combat the Colts, but all that got Denver was 6 points closer in a first round road playoff blowout. (41-10 to 49-24) AND, Shanahan seemed to forget about LT and LJ which has prevented the Broncos from even winning their own division. If last year's Super Bowl didn't prove to anybody that a strong DL is key in today's game, then I don't know what will.
Agreed. Shanny tried to plug holes with Browncos and other castoff FA stop gaps so ANY OTHER strategy ought to be an improvement. Thomas should stick but we'll need to draft a young DT as well as addressing the DE spot even if either Moss or Elvis fits with the new defense. What I'm hoping for is a fast, attacking defense that can bring the wood like the Steelers, Ravens or Eagles do.

Natedog24
01-04-2009, 03:47 PM
What I'm hoping for is a fast, attacking defense that can bring the wood like the Steelers, Ravens or Eagles do.

Aren't all of those teams that run the 3-4 defense?

WolfpackGuy
01-04-2009, 03:49 PM
Watch the Eagles/Vikes game. What the Eagles run is the system that will come with Spagnoulo.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 03:53 PM
Same with DJ Williams... trade value is probably marginal, so you're probably better finding a way to make it work.

That's because pro teams aren't looking for the next Pinochio trying to become a real boy. They want football players, not the sloppy seconds of Ted Sunquist and his vast compendium of epic failure.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 03:54 PM
Watch the Eagles/Vikes game. What the Eagles run is the system that will come with Spagnoulo.

I wonder how badly that would be embarrassed with Denver's linebackers and safeties.

R8R H8R
01-04-2009, 04:00 PM
Making these assumptions:

The offense and O-staff is kept intact and continues to develop.
A DC or HC that is a defensive guru is brought in.
We have good off-seasons ( draft and FA).

With these assumptions, I think this is possible:

1yr. - At least average D. W/ an avg. D and this offense, we win min. 10 games, maybe more. The key will be if we get better as the year goes on, not the same or worse.

2yrs.- Good D. Not only do we make the playoffs, winning a game or 2 is not out of the realm of possibility.

3yrs. - Great D is a real possibility. Anything would be possible at this point.

The reason I like Spags so much as HC is he turned a mediocre to bad(although maybe not as bad as ours) defense around his 1st year. They gave up 80 points the 1st two games, but were the best D in football in the SB. Anything is possible.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 04:02 PM
Making these assumptions:

The offense and O-staff is kept intact and continues to develop.
A DC or HC that is a defensive guru is brought in.
We have good off-seasons ( draft and FA).

With these assumptions, I think this is possible:

1yr. - At least average D. W/ an avg. D and this offense, we win min. 10 games, maybe more. The key will be if we get better as the year goes on, not the same or worse.

2yrs.- Good D. Not only do we make the playoffs, winning a game or 2 is not out of the realm of possibility.

3yrs. - Great D is a real possibility. Anything would be possible at this point.

The reason I like Spags so much as HC is he turned a mediocre to bad(although maybe not as bad as ours) defense around his 1st year. They gave up 80 points the 1st two games, but were the best D in football in the SB. Anything is possible.

Yeah. Maybe can hire a defensive guru. Maybe the guy who invented the scheme that Tenn runs.

(Btw, Tenn runs the Bates scheme. One of the most respected DCs in the modern NFL. We fired him last year after one half season of opportunity)

WolfpackGuy
01-04-2009, 04:03 PM
I wonder how badly that would be embarrassed with Denver's linebackers and safeties.

A possiblity, but you don't know where the pressure is coming from. Not a problem with Denver's recent schemes because it was nonexistent and damn near unoriginal at times.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 04:08 PM
A possiblity, but you don't know where the pressure is coming from. Not a problem with Denver's recent schemes because it was nonexistent and damn near unoriginal at times.

And when it was original, and sacking the QB a ridiculous amount of times, it still got gashed for over 40 points. See New England game.

When Champ went down, it all went down. Josh Bell is not a pro corner. Neither is Foxworth. JW MIGHT be eventually. Trading Fox was just dumb... especially for the price, but apparently it had little to do with football and more to do with personality clashes.

Fox was probably the D MVP for the 2nd half of Atlanta's games.

WolfpackGuy
01-04-2009, 04:14 PM
And when it was original, and sacking the QB a ridiculous amount of times, it still got gashed for over 40 points. See New England game.

When Champ went down, it all went down. Josh Bell is not a pro corner. Neither is Foxworth. JW MIGHT be eventually. Trading Fox was just dumb... especially for the price, but apparently it had little to do with football and more to do with personality clashes.

Fox was probably the D MVP for the 2nd half of Atlanta's games.

Yeah, the offense caught a touch of the turnoveritis that game. LOL

R8R H8R
01-04-2009, 04:15 PM
Yeah. Maybe can hire a defensive guru. Maybe the guy who invented the scheme that Tenn runs.

(Btw, Tenn runs the Bates scheme. One of the most respected DCs in the modern NFL. We fired him last year after one half season of opportunity)

I thought they were running Jeff Fischer's scheme( who is considered a defensive guru)? No? But nonetheless, if our D can become anywhere near as good as the Titans D is, I would be all for it.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 04:25 PM
I thought they were running Jeff Fischer's scheme( who is considered a defensive guru)? No? But nonetheless, if our D can become anywhere near as good as the Titans D is, I would be all for it.

This is a great example of how "offensive/defensive minded coaches" don't have all that much impact on that side of the ball... unless you're a LOCK HoFer like Shanny or Belicek.

Fischer IS a "defensive minded" HC, who currently has a strong D that does not run his own philosophy/scheme.

Something funny:
2008: Tenn has the 7th ranked D and earns the top seed. Kerry Collins spends time with legit MVP consideration :rofl:
2007: Tenn has the 5th ranked D and Vince Young earns ROY awards :rofl:
2006: Tenn has the 32nd ranked D, earning them the #3 draft pick!

Jeff Fischer: D minded coach.
Mike Shanahan: O minded coach.

Who would you think has had the better D over the past 14 seasons?

Answer: The offensive minded guy!

manchambo
01-04-2009, 04:40 PM
A long time to never, but that's fine. The defense just needs to be respectable and this will be a competitive team.

SoCalBronco
01-04-2009, 04:42 PM
It is hard to have both a great offense and great defense. Resources are finite. You sort of half to lean towards one or the other and the work to make sure that the other side is solid/good/not a liability. But it is extremely hard to be "great" at both.

We have decided to push most of the resources into the offense after trying the defense first method for a couple years. I don't know if it will ever be "great" during the Cutler era, because we have to put a premium on keeping the offensive core together for him. That means resigning Clady when the time is due (prolly Royal as well), resigning Marshall very shortly, Kuper, Harris, Scheffler (despite his glass nature, he is VERY important). This will absorb alot of space.

This leaves limited room for long term FA improvement on D. Maybe like one or two guys, but you can't really rebuild it that way, because of the funding problem. The team might have a short 2-3 year spurt of excellent defensive play, because they might draft well and then you can sink your teeth into those guys cheaply for a couple years before you let them go in order to make sure that the offensive core remains intact.

I think the most you can reasonably expect in the next few years is a good, solid defense. It's unreasonable to expect a great one during this era, especially with Champ going from the scene not too long from now.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 04:44 PM
It is hard to have both a great offense and great defense. Resources are finite. You sort of half to lean towards one or the other and the work to make sure that the other side is solid/good/not a liability. But it is extremely hard to be "great" at both.

We have decided to push most of the resources into the offense after trying the defense first method for a couple years. I don't know if it will ever be "great" during the Cutler era, because we have to put a premium on keeping the offensive core together for him. That means resigning Clady when the time is due (prolly Royal as well), resigning Marshall very shortly, Kuper, Harris, Scheffler (despite his glass nature, he is VERY important). This will absorb alot of space.

This leaves limited room for long term FA improvement on D. Maybe like one or two guys, but you can't really rebuild it that way, because of the funding problem. The team might have a short 2-3 year spurt of excellent defensive play, because they might draft well and then you can sink your teeth into those guys cheaply for a couple years before you let them go in order to make sure that the offensive core remains intact.

I think the most you can reasonably expect in the next few years is a good, solid defense. It's unreasonable to expect a great one during this era, especially with Champ going from the scene not too long from now.

But Spagnuolo would obviously be able to be the Head Coach, coach up all the D players one on one, AND call the plays simulataneously!

Don't you read e-forums?!?!?

SoCalBronco
01-04-2009, 04:51 PM
But Spagnuolo would obviously be able to be the Head Coach, coach up all the D players one on one, AND call the plays simulataneously!

Don't you read e-forums?!?!?

I'm really starting to warm to Spags. I know you don't care for him, much. I don't think anyone is expecting a miracle from the man, but I'm sure he'll help. He can't turn it totally around without talent and that requires money in FA or picks, but he'll help, dude.

Spags + devoting most (but not all) of the picks to D + hitting on some so we can keep them cheaply for a few years in order to extend the kids on O = Solid but not special defense.

That's all I can ask for.

BTW, this is another argument against McDaniels. Since we already have some good minds on the O side of the ball, if we added a good defensive mind at HC, this would help to partially offset the talent deficit, whereas McDaniels would be duplicative on offense, and would create maybe a Reeves-Shanahan-Elway scenario, where the QB may like his QB coach's plays better than his HC's plays and they start conspiring together against the HC. I grant you that the analogy is not perfect because its not like McDaniels is conservative or anything, but its just that it seems Jay is dead set against changing the system itself, and McDaniels has another system, even if it is also a passing one.

Florida_Bronco
01-04-2009, 04:54 PM
2 safeties that need to be replaced.

Actually, just one. Barrett showed enough in his short playing time for us to have confidence in him as a starter in 2009.

Good, but aging starting corners and behind is young inexperienced ones.

I think we're fine here if we keep Bly, Paymah, Bell and Williams.

Linebackers who are only solid at best or backups at best.

With the exception of DJ, this is true. I think we move Woodyard to SAM and then pick up a MLB in the draft or free agency.

A DL that is filled with question marks and average players.

I think this group will be alright with a competent coaching staff. Moss, Crowder , Robertson and Thomas have great talent, Dumervil is a great pass rush specialist and we have a few good depth players. If the coaching staff can get those players to play at the top of their game, then we really only need a NT type, which we may already have in Carlton Powell.

Face it... this defense will be mediocore to horrid for the next few years at least.

That's extreme negativity at best. With a competent coaching staff and a couple good moves, we could have a good defense in 2009

Lets face it and start rebuilding thru the draft and not bring in overpriced FA's.

Ummm, that's what we've been doing for the last year.

My comments in red.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 04:56 PM
I'm really starting to warm to Spags. I know you don't care for him, much. I don't think anyone is expecting a miracle from the man, but I'm sure he'll help. He can't turn it totally around without talent and that requires money in FA or picks, but he'll help, dude.

Spags + devoting most (but not all) of the picks to D + hitting on some so we can keep them cheaply for a few years in order to extend the kids on O = Solid but not special defense.

That's all I can ask for.

BTW, this is another argument against McDaniels. Since we already have some good minds on the O side of the ball, if we added a good defensive mind at HC, this would help to partially offset the talent deficit, whereas McDaniels would be duplicative on offense, and would create maybe a Reeves-Shanahan-Elway scenario, where the QB may like his QB coach's plays better than his HC's plays and they start conspiring together against the HC. I grant you that the analogy is not perfect because its not like McDaniels is conservative or anything, but its just that it seems Jay is dead set against changing the system itself, and McDaniels has another system, even if it is also a passing one.

I care for Spags as much as you do.

The difference is, you assume more than I.

You assume he'll leave the offensive staff in tact, and leave them alone and focus on the D.

I assume he'll be the HC of the Denver Broncos and not the DC.

That's the only difference.

SoCalBronco
01-04-2009, 04:58 PM
I care for Spags as much as you do.

The difference is, you assume more than I.

You assume he'll leave the offensive staff in tact, and leave them alone and focus on the D.

I assume he'll be the HC of the Denver Broncos and not the DC.

That's the only difference.

But why is this your assumption when you already agreed with me that Jay has the juice required to make sure that the offense (and staff) remains intact?

He is the HC, but in reality, he's nothing more than a glorified DC.

baja
01-04-2009, 05:02 PM
But why is this your assumption when you already agreed with me that Jay has the juice required to make sure that the offense (and staff) remains intact?

<b>He is the HC, but in reality, he's nothing more than a glorified DC.

If that is true he should take the Jets job

baja
01-04-2009, 05:04 PM
If you guys want the O left alone than you should be hoping for Dennison or Bates to be promoted to HC and have him bring in a DC

SoCalBronco
01-04-2009, 05:06 PM
If that is true he should take the Jets job

Why? He should be happy that he already has in place highly competent coaches and a highly effective system on the other side of the ball.

Can the Jets say that? Do the Jets have a franchise QB? No, they have a whiny biatch who's done.

This is perfect for Spags. He can focus on his side of the ball which is his specialty. It takes a burden off his shoulders. This is kinda like when Walsh bequeathed the 49ers to Seifert. He was the HC, but he was smart enough to know that it was best to leave the offense alone. They had a great system in place, great coaches who learned under Walsh in Holmgren, and McKittrick, and great players who loved that system. Just cause he was the HC doesn't mean he has to get his hands into everything.

SoCalBronco
01-04-2009, 05:09 PM
If you guys want the O left alone than you should be hoping for Dennison or Bates to be promoted to HC and have him bring in a DC

I'm all good with that. I have no problem with that scenario, either.

baja
01-04-2009, 05:09 PM
Why? He should be happy that he already has in place highly competent coaches and a highly effective system on the other side of the ball.

Can the Jets say that? Due the Jets have a franchise QB? No, they have a whiny biatch who's done.

This is perfect for Spags. He can focus on his side of the ball which is his specialty. It takes a burden off his shoulders.

Well assuming he is not a slacker maybe he'd actually like to be a real HC rather than a glorified DC as you suggest.

R8R H8R
01-04-2009, 05:22 PM
This is a great example of how "offensive/defensive minded coaches" don't have all that much impact on that side of the ball... unless you're a LOCK HoFer like Shanny or Belicek.

Fischer IS a "defensive minded" HC, who currently has a strong D that does not run his own philosophy/scheme.

Something funny:
2008: Tenn has the 7th ranked D and earns the top seed. Kerry Collins spends time with legit MVP consideration :rofl:
2007: Tenn has the 5th ranked D and Vince Young earns ROY awards :rofl:
2006: Tenn has the 32nd ranked D, earning them the #3 draft pick!

Jeff Fischer: D minded coach.
Mike Shanahan: O minded coach.

Who would you think has had the better D over the past 14 seasons?

Answer: The offensive minded guy!

Look I don't have the time, energy, nor inclination to look up the stats, but I have a hard time believing that the Broncos over the last 14 years have had a better overall defense than the titans.

I don't care who's scheme it is, but Fischer has had pretty good defenses over the years with just a few exceptions. He at least has an influence over this defense(the strength of the team), even if it is ran by another.

One other thing concerning the statement about a def. or off. minded coach doesn't impact that side of the ball that much: For every failure you mention, I could name one that applies, Shottenhiemer and Cower are 2 that come to mind; they always had pretty good defenses most years. I am sure there are more.

socalorado
01-04-2009, 05:30 PM
I care for Spags as much as you do.

The difference is, you assume more than I.

You assume he'll leave the offensive staff in tact, and leave them alone and focus on the D.

I assume he'll be the HC of the Denver Broncos and not the DC.

That's the only difference.

hey, do you still think DJ should just be traded? Wonder what he would fetch with Champ in a package deal? STL, HOU, DET all would be interested.
I mean if posters are saying trade champ, with Josh bell as his replacement, i cant see how anyone would be opposed to trading DJ with WWIII as his.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 05:34 PM
Look I don't have the time, energy, nor inclination to look up the stats, but I have a hard time believing that the Broncos over the last 14 years have had a better overall defense than the titans.

I don't care who's scheme it is, but Fischer has had pretty good defenses over the years with just a few exceptions. He at least has an influence over this defense(the strength of the team), even if it is ran by another.

One other thing concerning the statement about a def. or off. minded coach doesn't impact that side of the ball that much: For every failure you mention, I could name one that applies, Shottenhiemer and Cower are 2 that come to mind; they always had pretty good defenses most years. I am sure there are more.

Then I'll help:

Den Tenn
1996: 4 6 (Houston Oilers)
1997: 5 22 (Tennessee Oilers)
1998: 11 16 (Tennessee Oilers)
1999: 7 17
2000: 24 1
2001: 8 25
2002: 6 10
2003: 4 12
2004: 4 27
2005: 15 19
2006: 14 32
2007: 19 5
2008: 29 7
Ave: 11.5 15.38

How quickly we forget. Which would you guess was the O minded guy's team? :rofl:

R8R H8R
01-04-2009, 05:35 PM
Why? He should be happy that he already has in place highly competent coaches and a highly effective system on the other side of the ball.

Can the Jets say that? Do the Jets have a franchise QB? No, they have a whiny biatch who's done.

This is perfect for Spags. He can focus on his side of the ball which is his specialty. It takes a burden off his shoulders. This is kinda like when Walsh bequeathed the 49ers to Seifert. He was the HC, but he was smart enough to know that it was best to leave the offense alone. They had a great system in place, great coaches who learned under Walsh in Holmgren, and McKittrick, and great players who loved that system. Just cause he was the HC doesn't mean he has to get his hands into everything.

That is a great point. And why I am pimping for a Def. guru such as Spags. I just think that a def. guy would more than likely keep the offense and staff in place. At least if he has any brains he would.

Likewise, I fear that an off. guy would think he needs to gut the offense and staff, just so he can call it "his". An ego type of thing.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 05:36 PM
But why is this your assumption when you already agreed with me that Jay has the juice required to make sure that the offense (and staff) remains intact?

He is the HC, but in reality, he's nothing more than a glorified DC.

If that's the ****ing case, why fire Mike aside from an ego trip?

Bowlen flipped his rocker, dude.

Even if we keep the O staff in tact, Cutler lost the greatest resource in the NFL that was readily available to him on a second by second basis. It's just stupid.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 05:37 PM
hey, do you still think DJ should just be traded? Wonder what he would fetch with Champ in a package deal? STL, HOU, DET all would be interested.
I mean if posters are saying trade champ, with Josh bell as his replacement, i cant see how anyone would be opposed to trading DJ with WWIII as his.

I think DJ should play where the **** they tell him to play until he proves worthy. Woodyard earned a LINEBACKER spot, imo.

Champ needs to stay. Bly staying would be extremely helpful also. If Champ's healthy, we go to playoffs and Shanahan's still the ****in coach.

SoCalBronco
01-04-2009, 05:43 PM
If that's the ****ing case, why fire Mike aside from an ego trip?

Bowlen flipped his rocker, dude.

Even if we keep the O staff in tact, Cutler lost the greatest resource in the NFL that was readily available to him on a second by second basis. It's just stupid.

Why are you asking me to justify Bowlen's actions when I was also bitterly opposed to them? Remember, when I'm dead and gone 50 years from now, the only thing they'll remember about me on the OrangeMane of 2060 is that he was the "Bowlen needs to get assraped by a 15 inch AIDS tipped dick" guy.

I can't justify him. I won't justify it. He became upset that it was looking more and more (to the media and public at large) like he was just some kind of aloof owner sitting in the corner and that Shanahan had all the power....even over him. That Shanahan had him in some kind of trans (sp) that he couldn't snap out of. It WAS ego. Now, it was justified for him to be upset about things relating to our team, but this was still nuts. It still reflected an almost child like petulant nature in which he could never really explain why he did it. Maybe Baja was right, maybe Mike did something that angered him, or maybe he thought that since he was the owner he could dictate to Mike that Slowik had to be fired despite Shanny getting final say of those things. Whatever it was, I don't think it was rational.

I totally agree with you on this. I don't agree with Bowlen's reasons. I don't really want change (on that side of the ball). I'm just trying to find a scenario where we can basically have an extension of Shanny and a new DC.

DB-Freak
01-04-2009, 05:46 PM
It was time to go in a different direction.

R8R H8R
01-04-2009, 05:49 PM
Then I'll help:

Den Tenn
1996: 4 6 (Houston Oilers)
1997: 5 22 (Tennessee Oilers)
1998: 11 16 (Tennessee Oilers)
1999: 7 17
2000: 24 1
2001: 8 25
2002: 6 10
2003: 4 12
2004: 4 27
2005: 15 19
2006: 14 32
2007: 19 5
2008: 29 7
Ave: 11.5 15.38

How quickly we forget. Which would you guess was the O minded guy's team? :rofl:

This is yards, not points; which even Shanahan admitted is more important. But regardless of the stat, I can't think of one year in Shanny's tenure where you can honestly say the D was dominant throughout the year. Even the SB years, the D was considered good to good-enough, but not dominant. I also believe these stats may be tainted a bit because of the offense that is usually run oriented and leads in TOP.

DB-Freak
01-04-2009, 05:51 PM
It's been way too long. And no one makes fool of a pimp like Bowlen for too long.

Seriously? How many credible D cord's reps have we ruined?

When Bates got fired that was the last straw for me. I realized its Shanny's management that lead to this.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 05:53 PM
It was time to go in a different direction.



I agree but i will say that everybody on this board has their own interpetation of what actually happened to force pat to drop the hammer on mike maybe someday we will find out the truth until then we are ALL speculating.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 05:56 PM
Why are you asking me to justify Bowlen's actions when I was also bitterly opposed to them? Remember, when I'm dead and gone 50 years from now, the only thing they'll remember about me on the OrangeMane of 2060 is that he was the "Bowlen needs to get assraped by a 15 inch AIDS tipped dick" guy.

I can't justify him. I won't justify it. He became upset that it was looking more and more (to the media and public at large) like he was just some kind of aloof owner sitting in the corner and that Shanahan had all the power....even over him. That Shanahan had him in some kind of trans (sp) that he couldn't snap out of. It WAS ego. Now, it was justified for him to be upset about things relating to our team, but this was still nuts. It still reflected an almost child like petulant nature in which he could never really explain why he did it. Maybe Baja was right, maybe Mike did something that angered him, or maybe he thought that since he was the owner he could dictate to Mike that Slowik had to be fired despite Shanny getting final say of those things. Whatever it was, I don't think it was rational.

I totally agree with you on this. I don't agree with Bowlen's reasons. I don't really want change (on that side of the ball). I'm just trying to find a scenario where we can basically have an extension of Shanny and a new DC.

If you think I'm lumping you into this new "Anti Shanahan" bandwagon that has most assuredly begun since his firing (wanna see something interesting? look at the Should Mike be fired poll before firing, and then the different should he be fired poll after firing. it's a good look into some people's character or lack thereof) I absolutely do NOT.

Pat simply got infuriated over Woody Paige's article insinuating that it was more likely that Mike fired Pat than vice versa and the comments in the presser only confirm that. TJ was beyond right to post his infamous thread. Pat's a douche that will rue the day.

Regardless, we're Bronco fans in this situation, and I'm just wanting someone to post WHY someone should be HC outside of a "glorified DC" spot, which history has shown does NOT work.

That's all. I want the next guy to be the RIGHT next guy since THE guy won't get the shot.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 05:57 PM
This is yards, not points; which even Shanahan admitted is more important. But regardless of the stat, I can't think of one year in Shanny's tenure where you can honestly say the D was dominant throughout the year. Even the SB years, the D was considered good to good-enough, but not dominant. I also believe these stats may be tainted a bit because of the offense that is usually run oriented and leads in TOP.

You really want me to look up points too because it doesn't fit your misguided interpretation of what a HC does?

Shanahan's are still better, btw.

DB-Freak
01-04-2009, 05:57 PM
Pat simply got infuriated over Woody Paige's article insinuating that it was more likely that Mike fired Pat than vice versa and the comments in the presser only confirm that. TJ was beyond right to post his infamous thread. Pat's a douche that will rue the day.



What?

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 06:02 PM
What?

You have a better explanation? Given the facts stated by Bowlen himself?

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 06:04 PM
You have a better speculation? Given the facts stated by Bowlen himself?


Fixed...

DB-Freak
01-04-2009, 06:08 PM
You have a better explanation? Given the facts stated by Bowlen himself?

I don't know the specifics. Fill me in?


All I wanna say is that Pat gave Shanny complete control and what resulted from it is what mike brought onto himelf.

oubronco
01-04-2009, 06:13 PM
just firing Slowik will give us two more wins. ;D

hell it would have given us at least 4 more wins this year

R8R H8R
01-04-2009, 06:21 PM
You really want me to look up points too because it doesn't fit your misguided interpretation of what a HC does?

Shanahan's are still better, btw.

No I don't and don't really care. How would you know what my interpretation of what a HC does? I never said. We are talking defense here, and btw, it was Shanny's defense these last couple of years that got his ass fired; right or wrong. You aren't going to deny that are you?

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 06:25 PM
Fixed...

Oh come on!

Pat Bowlen had the guts to fire Dan Reeves and Wade Phillips. But he doesn't have the backbone to fire Shanahan.

As someone who knows said Sunday, the franchise may be owned by Bowlen, but the organization is under the complete control of Shanahan.

It's more reasonable to believe Shanahan would fire Bowlen.

I run the show

And finally . . . I close with just a thought for many who offered reminders this week that Shanahan never won a Super Bowl without John Elway.

My response to that is he had a lot of company in that thought.

And as some folks know I have banged on this drum many times....

Super Bowl wins for Chuck Noll without Terry Bradshaw: 0.
Super Bowl wins for Vince Lombardi without Bart Starr: 0.
Super Bowl wins for George Seifert without Steve Young: 0.
Super Bowl wins for Bill Walsh without Joe Montana: 0.
Super Bowl wins for Jimmy Johnson without Troy Aikman: 0.
Super Bowl wins for Tom Landry without Roger Staubach: 0.
Championships for Paul Brown without Otto Graham: 0.

Plenty of spectacular, Hall of Fame coaches, have not climbed the league's highest peak without a remember-when quarterback to help them.

So it makes for a memorable statistic, but not sure it is a true measure of whether or not somebody is past their prime in the coaching game.

Even Bill Parcells, who many people consider one of the best team builders in the game right now, is still looking - with his fourth different team - to re-capture what he had with the Giants 19 years ago. Nineteen years.

The Cowboys have no playoff wins - none - in 12 years. They have changed head coaches four times so change isn't always the answer either.

Pat Bowlen has taken a risk by firing one of just 12 coaches who have won at least two Super Bowls and the winningest coach in franchise history.

Because it could be said Bowlen has never won a Super Bowl without Mike Shanahan.

That's it, Happy New Year and thanks. Please remember I'll try, if events cooperate to get the Inbox up as scheduled next week. Please keep the questions coming.

--Jeff Legwold

Might I compound that BOWLEN has never BEEN to a SB without Shanny, while Mike has WON SB's without Bowlen?!

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 06:26 PM
No I don't and don't really care. How would you know what my interpretation of what a HC does? I never said. We are talking defense here, and btw, it was Shanny's defense these last couple of years that got his ass fired; right or wrong. You aren't going to deny that are you?

So, should Fischer have been fired during the year his "specialty" was ranked #32 in the NFL? Or is he doing OK this year?

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 06:30 PM
Oh come on!







Might I compound that BOWLEN has never BEEN to a SB without Shanny, while Mike has WON SB's without Bowlen?!


Ok rev we can say that the final piece to your puzzle is your opinion/interpetation of what woody wrote and pats reaction? it's speculation anyway you look at it and iam not trying to be a dick iam just stating a fact.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 06:31 PM
Ok rev we can say that the final piece to your puzzle is your opinion/interpetation of woody wrote? it's speculation anyway you look at it and iam not trying to be a dick iam just stating a fact.

That's fair if you can make a better interpretation of what Bowlen HIMSELF said.

"Mike did a great job"

It wasn't the GM moves.

It wasn't the staff.

Here's a good one, though:

"I spent last night dreading what you'd ask me, Woody"

SoCalBronco
01-04-2009, 06:35 PM
That's fair if you can make a better interpretation of what Bowlen HIMSELF said.

"Mike did a great job"

It wasn't the GM moves.

It wasn't the staff.

Here's a good one, though:

"I spent last night dreading what you'd ask me, Woody"


Ahh, the press conference.

That reminds me.

I dunno, but in that one segment of the PC when Bowlen was taking that question from the reporter about whether he would look at college coaches and he sort of half smiled and said" I'm going to look at the whole panacea of coaches", it TOTALLY looked like he was on the sauce from the look on his face.

I was thinking of posting that in the "Does Pat have a drinking problem" thread, but decided not to.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 06:38 PM
That's fair if you can make a better interpretation of what Bowlen HIMSELF said.

"Mike did a great job"

It wasn't the GM moves.

It wasn't the staff.

Here's a good one, though:

"I spent last night dreading what you'd ask me, Woody"


Who knows and we will probably never know the truth but in pats defense i might be inclined to beleive pat has a bit more class and handled the situation a bit better than how you say it went. Do you really believe pat fired mike over a artical? i would have thought mike has earned a bit more respect from pat but hey ( iam just speculating)

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 06:41 PM
Who knows and we will probably never know the truth but in pats defense i might be inclined to beleive pat has a bit more class and handled the situation a bit better than how you say it went. Do you really believe pat fired mike over a artical? i would have thought mike has earned a bit more respect from pat but hey ( iam just speculating)

One of the Shanahan hating local writer's even confirmed that thought Bowlen didn't say why Shanahan was fired, he said why Shanahan was fired "I run the show".

It's sad.

Pat's MIGHT be becoming Al Davis. Old men do this. Kirwan has some great stories of his old owners telling him "I don't care what it costs, get me a championship".

Once again, it's just sad.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 06:42 PM
Ahh, the press conference.

That reminds me.

I dunno, but in that one segment of the PC when Bowlen was taking that question from the reporter about whether he would look at college coaches and he sort of half smiled and said" I'm going to look at the whole panacea of coaches", it TOTALLY looked like he was on the sauce from the look on his face.

I was thinking of posting that in the "Does Pat have a drinking problem" thread, but decided not to.

Disgusting, isn't it?

DBroncos4life
01-04-2009, 06:43 PM
Its not as bad as everyone wants to make it out to be but whatever. A true leader MLB will help out lots. I still believe the DTs we have can get it done. I also think that Moss will turn the corner next year as long as nothing happens to him during camp. The safties are a huge problem but there are lots in FA that can help out. You give me a TRUE MLB and one of the FS that are a FA combined with at work horse RB and we will look ten times better next year.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 06:44 PM
Its not as bad as everyone wants to make it out to be but whatever. A true leader MLB will help out lots. I still believe the DTs we have can get it done. I also think that Moss will turn the corner next year as long as nothing happens to him during camp. The safties are a huge problem but there are lots in FA that can help out. You give me a TRUE MLB and one of the FS that are a FA combined with at work horse RB and we will look ten times better next year.

Right. A D isn't that complicated to fix in a record year in FA and the draft. So why fire your coach?

DBroncos4life
01-04-2009, 06:45 PM
Right. A D isn't that complicated to fix in a record year in FA and the draft. So why fire your coach?

It wasn't the right move. End of story

R8R H8R
01-04-2009, 06:46 PM
So, should Fischer have been fired during the year his "specialty" was ranked #32 in the NFL? Or is he doing OK this year?

No, but his GM should. Oh, that's right he was. I forget his name (Floyd Reese?), but he was the genius that drafted PacMan. What a coincidence that after they get rid of the guy in charge of personnel, the Titans start winning.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 06:47 PM
One of the Shanahan hating local writer's even confirmed that thought Bowlen didn't say why Shanahan was fired, he said why Shanahan was fired "I run the show".

It's sad.

Pat's MIGHT be becoming Al Davis. Old men do this. Kirwan has some great stories of his old owners telling him "I don't care what it costs, get me a championship".

Once again, it's just sad.


Pat does indeed ( run the show) noting wrong with him saying say so and pat is a far cry from being al freaking davis that a hole lost his marbles in the 90s when the league started enforcing the rules and removing the heart and sole of al davis team motto ( just cheat baby)

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 06:49 PM
No, but his GM should. Oh, that's right he was. I forget his name (Floyd Reese?), but he was the genius that drafted PacMan. What a coincidence that after they get rid of the guy in charge of personnel, the Titans start winning.

I thought a defensive minded coach could change a team regardless of personnel? Isn't that the theme of the threads on the main page these days?

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 06:49 PM
Pat does indeed ( run the show) noting wrong with him saying say so and pat is a far cry from being al freaking davis that a hole lost his marbles in the 90s when the league started enforcing the rules and removing the heart and sole of al davis team motto ( just cheat baby)

They've got a touch more in common today than they did a month ago, my man.

Bronx33
01-04-2009, 06:52 PM
They've got a touch more in common today than they did a month ago, my man.


How many coaches has pat fired in 14 years vs crazy al? your comparison is a stretch at best, my man.

lex
01-04-2009, 07:00 PM
How many coaches has pat fired in 14 years vs crazy al? your comparison is a stretch at best, my man.

Thats his game, dude. Just throw **** out there and hope it sticks whether its an appropriate comparison or not. He's just being a failure of a contrarian for attention.

Bob's your Information Minister
01-04-2009, 07:03 PM
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R8R H8R
01-04-2009, 07:08 PM
I thought a defensive minded coach could change a team regardless of personnel? Isn't that the theme of the threads on the main page these days?

Regardless of personnel? Look the bottom line is that when Fischer got more say in what guys he is going to coach on the defense they become a top defensive team again and start winning. That is a fact.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 07:09 PM
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Bob, cut the douche act for 10 minutes. You're not stupid, though you play one on TV.

You've been antagonizing a Mike Shanahan firing on e-forums, but if he was hired by KC you'd cream your pants 1000x over.

Just cut the **** and be you for a week. People might start to like you... you might even stumble into some poon.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 07:09 PM
Regardless of personnel? Look the bottom line is that when Fischer got more say in what guys he is going to coach on the defense they become a top defensive team again and start winning. That is a fact.

Hardly.

What star defensive personnel did Fischer bring in?

Haynesworth? Already there.

Vandenbosch? Already there.

Bulluck? Already there.

SoCalBronco
01-04-2009, 07:13 PM
People might start to like you... you might even stumble into some poon.

Woah...woah...woah, back up there, cowboy.

I agree that Bob is actually pretty cool when he is being himself and not going out of his way to be a jerk. I don't think Bob will be stumbling onto any poon anytime soon, though, although he is more mature now and certainly has lost alot of weight.

I know Broncosteven will appreciate this, but Bob's situation re: getting laid reminds me of that scene from Apollo 13 when the three astronauts are all fighting with each other and Hanks has enough of it and says something to the effect of "Look, we need a 1000 things to happen before we get back home and we're on no. 8". That's kind of how it is for Bob. He's improving, but he probably needs 1000 things to happen before he gets laid and he's probably on number 8, too.

DBroncos4life
01-04-2009, 07:14 PM
Hardly.

What star defensive personnel did Fischer bring in?

Haynesworth? Already there.

Vandenbosch? Already there.

Bulluck? Already there.

Vandenbosch was brought in and resigned by them

ScottXray
01-04-2009, 07:15 PM
Hardly.

What star defensive personnel did Fischer bring in?

Haynesworth? Already there.

Vandenbosch? Already there.

Bulluck? Already there.

how long has Fisher been at Tenn? longer than Shanny was here!

How many of those players have been in the NFL that long?

I think zero?

just asking!:thumbsup:

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 07:25 PM
how long has Fisher been at Tenn? longer than Shanny was here!

How many of those players have been in the NFL that long?

I think zero?

just asking!:thumbsup:

You obviously missed the post that was in response too!

Very smart though

*By smart I mean the complete opposite :wiggle:

Florida_Bronco
01-04-2009, 09:34 PM
I agree that Bob is actually pretty cool when he is being himself and not going out of his way to be a jerk.

I don't know how you could say that after the things he said about my father and girlfriend.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 09:37 PM
I don't know how you could say that after the things he said about my father and girlfriend.

Relax, man. Bob's a sensationalist. Never serious. Just an attention whore.

Florida_Bronco
01-04-2009, 09:40 PM
Relax, man. Bob's a sensationalist. Never serious. Just an attention whore.

Oh I know, and it didn't bother me at all because Bobo is not someone who matters, but I believe Bobo meant it.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 09:42 PM
Oh I know, and it didn't bother me at all because Bobo is not someone who matters, but I believe Bobo meant it.

Bobo means nothing that doesn't involve food consumption, bro. Just relax.

rugbythug
01-04-2009, 09:46 PM
The Talent was better than the Coaching. We could get to middle of the pack in a hurry.

Florida_Bronco
01-04-2009, 09:52 PM
Bobo means nothing that doesn't involve food consumption, bro. Just relax.

Oh I'm relaxed. This is an issue that happened 2+ years ago and I wasn't that pissed off then.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 09:56 PM
The Talent was better than the Coaching. We could get to middle of the pack in a hurry.

Mother always taught me to aspire to the day where I could be middle of the pack...

Wow.

lex
01-04-2009, 09:56 PM
Alright, well getting back to the original question. You can probably at least double it if you answered thinking it would be Spags. If Bowlens attention is on McDaniel and not the defense, that should tell you all you need to know right there.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 09:57 PM
Alright, well getting back to the original question. You can probably at least double it if you answered thinking it would be Spags. If Bowlens attention is on McDaniel and not the defense, that should tell you all you need to know right there.

A good post, but I disagree.

The D has more to do with who the HC values as the DC, and their input on FA and draft prospects.

lex
01-04-2009, 10:03 PM
A good post, but I disagree.

The D has more to do with who the HC values as the DC, and their input on FA and draft prospects.

No, I think the HC often gives his area of expertise direction, unless that area is already in good shape as was the case with Tomlin in Pittsburgh. The other thing, is that McDaniels offensive tendencies is going to make it harder on the defense if he passes it 70% of the time, which is likely to happen.

Either way, its just dire right now. I feel like Bowlens about to run this team off a cliff. I hope Im wrong but I dont really see how you can be upset enough with Shanahan about the defense and then find a HC whose specialty is offense. This really sucks. Hey, at least Pat has his stadium. Mike and the fans were just bystanders.

TheReverend
01-04-2009, 10:05 PM
No, I think the HC often gives his area of expertise direction, unless that area is already in good shape as was the case with Tomlin in Pittsburgh. The other thing, is that McDaniels offensive tendencies is going to make it harder on the defense if he passes it 70% of the time, which is likely to happen.

Either way, its just dire right now. I feel like Bowlens about to run this team off a cliff. I hope Im wrong but I dont really see how you can be upset enough with Shanahan about the defense and then find a HC whose specialty is offense. This really sucks. Hey, at least Pat has his stadium. Mike and the fans were just bystanders.

I agree. I hope I/we are wrong, but I agree.

I DO disagree about HC's. If one IS talented enough to lend his expertise beyond his HC duties, they CAN bleed over to their field, but that's far from common place. FAR from it. That's all.

SoCalBronco
01-04-2009, 11:24 PM
I don't know how you could say that after the things he said about my father and girlfriend.

Like I said, when he's not going out of his way to be a jerk....or to be mean spirited, which he sometimes is.

At one time, you had very good relations with Bob, too, before he said some rather terrible things, which I still hope he will one day apologize for.

Florida_Bronco
01-04-2009, 11:28 PM
Like I said, when he's not going out of his way to be a jerk....or to be mean spirited, which he sometimes is.

At one time, you had very good relations with Bob, too, before he said some rather terrible things, which I still hope he will one day apologize for.

Me and Bobo never had very good relations. At one time we'd talk on AIM every once in awhile, and even then he acted like a prick alot of times.

On his best day, Bob is a barely tolerable as a human being.

24champ
01-04-2009, 11:39 PM
Like I said, when he's not going out of his way to be a jerk....or to be mean spirited, which he sometimes is.

At one time, you had very good relations with Bob, too, before he said some rather terrible things, which I still hope he will one day apologize for.

Bob's a f****ing moron. There's no defending that worthless sack of **** Socal.

Rocket 7
01-04-2009, 11:42 PM
Bob's a *****ing moron. There's no defending that worthless sack of **** Socal.

UNLV got lucky Lobos rule

spdirty
01-04-2009, 11:43 PM
[/QUOTE]How long will it take for this defense to become actually great? [/QUOTE]

Depends on what players are picked up in fA as well as the draft. Also depends on who is coaching them. Could take 1 offseason if everything falls into place. I guaruntee you though a 32 year old kid wont get it done.

24champ
01-05-2009, 12:07 AM
UNLV got lucky Lobos rule

Lobos impressed me, I think they will be a player for the conference title and in the Tourney. Things should get interesting in THE PIT next month when the Runnin' Rebs go there...Wink will be 100% next time.:approve:

iforgotmypassword
01-05-2009, 12:08 AM
next year we could easily climb into the top 15 on D

DB-Freak
10-22-2009, 06:00 AM
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/10/20/nolan.jpg

P.I.M.P

exceeded my expectations by a mile.

BABronco
10-22-2009, 09:23 AM
haha nice bump!!

Rock Chalk
10-22-2009, 09:35 AM
2 safeties that need to be replaced.

Good, but aging starting corners and behind is young inexperienced ones.

Linebackers who are only solid at best or backups at best.

A DL that is filled with question marks and average players.


Face it... this defense will be mediocore to horrid for the next few years at least.

Lets face it and start rebuilding thru the draft and not bring in overpriced FA's.

It's posts like these that give me pause about making predictions on how any upcoming season is going to turn out.

Who the **** can know in the NFL anymore.

The only certainties are that Peyton Manning is going to the Pro-Bowl because he is the best QB in the league and that Favre will unretire.

TheReverend
10-22-2009, 09:40 AM
Regardless, we're Bronco fans in this situation, and I'm just wanting someone to post WHY someone should be HC outside of a "glorified DC" spot, which history has shown does NOT work.

That's all. I want the next guy to be the RIGHT next guy since THE guy won't get the shot.

Ready for more negs of off-season comments.

But nailed this one, eh? lol

TheDave
10-22-2009, 09:46 AM
It's posts like these that give me pause about making predictions on how any upcoming season is going to turn out.

Who the **** can know in the NFL anymore.

The only certainties are that Peyton Manning is going to the Pro-Bowl because he is the best QB in the league and that Favre will unretire.

In nearly 30 years of watching the NFL I've never see anything like this.

Last years D was literally one of the 5 worst defenses I have ever seen.

Some how McD and Co. picked up 7-8 new starters via the FA scrap pile(magically hitting on every single one of them), completely changed the scheme, practiced it for about 4 months, and...BAM!

Suddenly... they are one of the 10 best defenses I have ever seen.

I'll bet I never see anything like this again.

baja
10-22-2009, 09:59 AM
My sober thought;

What happens to this magical D when we get our first significant injury on defense?

TailgateNut
10-22-2009, 10:02 AM
My sober thought;

What happens to this magical D when we get our first significant injury on defense?

Go wash your mouth with soap!

TheReverend
10-22-2009, 10:02 AM
My sober thought;

What happens to this magical D when we get our first significant injury on defense?

Depth on the line and at LB are both fantastic.

My two main injury concerns are Champ and Elvis. Confident that Reid and Ayers could play at a high level, but right now Elvis is playing at the HIGHEST level. As for Champ, I just haven't seen nearly enough of Alphonso to be comfortable with him missing a few weeks.

Rohirrim
10-22-2009, 10:06 AM
In nearly 30 years of watching the NFL I've never see anything like this.

Last years D was literally one of the 5 worst defenses I have ever seen.

Some how McD and Co. picked up 7-8 new starters via the FA scrap pile(magically hitting on every single one of them), completely changed the scheme, practiced it for about 4 months, and...BAM!

Suddenly... they are one of the 10 best defenses I have ever seen.

I'll bet I never see anything like this again.

No doubt. One of the biggest things I've noticed is that, in case nobody ever noticed, I'm kind of a draft nerd (;D) and for years, I've been looking at the Broncos D thinking there's so many holes to fill, so many problems to fix. Now, I'm thinking this engine is already running at champion level, how do we supercharge it? It's no longer fixing holes, it's building on what is already working. That's why I think that as long we can hold on to Nolan, it's only going to get better. Top of my wish list for next year is Mount Cody, the next Ted Washington. That would take this D up a couple of hundred horsepower. ;D

baja
10-22-2009, 10:09 AM
Go wash your mouth with soap!

Note to self; never use Lava for this.

TailgateNut
10-22-2009, 10:10 AM
Note to self; never use Lava for this.

I was thinking Lye!
Then you could eat some fish and become a vikings fan.:wiggle:

baja
10-22-2009, 10:12 AM
Depth on the line and at LB are both fantastic.

My two main injury concerns are Champ and Elvis. Confident that Reid and Ayers could play at a high level, but right now Elvis is playing at the HIGHEST level. As for Champ, I just haven't seen nearly enough of Alphonso to be comfortable with him missing a few weeks.

After Champ losing our nose tackle Fields scares me the most.

He gets no press but the guy is playing lights out and has little backing him up

TonyR
10-22-2009, 10:14 AM
I guaruntee you though a 32 year old kid wont get it done.

I love guarantees. Particularly when mispelled. And this stuff may possibly never get old.

Drek
10-22-2009, 10:18 AM
My sober thought;

What happens to this magical D when we get our first significant injury on defense?

Like when Dawkins went down for the entire second quarter and McBath filled in without us missing a beat?

Or when Haggan was hurt in that same quarter and Reid/Ayers picked up the slack?

Or Fields being out then too with Marcus Thomas holding serve in the middle of the DL?

We saw our first brief test of our depth chart in the second quarter of San Diego. Just so happens that was when our D started to put it together against them as well.

We've got a lot of good depth. I think we need to get Larsen healthy and involved to protect us from losing Andra Davis who is invaluable as a run stuffer on 1st and 2nd downs (Woodyard can't do that job). We also need Smith and Williams to be healthy working in the nickel and dime packages to be ready in case Goodman or Champ gets hurt. But other than that we've got some very good depth across the board.

McDaniels built an incredibly solid roster with a nice mix of veteran starters and young, athletic depth.

baja
10-22-2009, 10:27 AM
If you are right Derk

It's one thing to find 11 guys that jell and over achieve but to think McD could have found depth too out of the mess he was handed than maybe the best off season rebuild in the history of the league.

TheDave
10-22-2009, 10:30 AM
Depth on the line and at LB are both fantastic.

My two main injury concerns are Champ and Elvis. Confident that Reid and Ayers could play at a high level, but right now Elvis is playing at the HIGHEST level. As for Champ, I just haven't seen nearly enough of Alphonso to be comfortable with him missing a few weeks.


Ditto. Elvis followed closely by champ. Lose either one of these and significant portions of this D could get exposed. The other player that would concern me would be Andra Davis... especially if he went out long term.

Fortunately, I think we are deep enough everywhere else to survive at least short term injuries.

Rohirrim
10-22-2009, 10:32 AM
If you are right Derk

It's one thing to find 11 guys that jell and over achieve but to think McD could have found depth too out of the mess he was handed than maybe the best off season rebuild in the history of the league.

I'm definitely beginning to get a slight whiff of "Coach of the Year" honors around here. ;D

tsiguy96
10-22-2009, 10:33 AM
And this stuff may possibly never get old.

it will never, ever get old. i love how all the doom and gloomers built in the response "i hope im wrong".

yea, sure. "this defense is gonna suck. i hope im wrong, but they will ****ing suck big time, no question. we are done for, its all over and mcd set the franchise back 10 years...but i hope im wrong"

its kinda silly if you ask me. atleast some people are eating their crow and learning not to make stupid predictions anymore, others however...bf7 and company are just gonna get worse

TheDave
10-22-2009, 10:35 AM
I'm definitely beginning to get a slight whiff of "Coach of the Year" honors around here. ;D

Great... another thread I might have to bump.


I'm starting to understand what it would be like to be an Opus Dei member.

TheReverend
10-22-2009, 10:36 AM
it will never, ever get old. i love how all the doom and gloomers built in the response "i hope im wrong".

yea, sure. "this defense is gonna suck. i hope im wrong, but they will ****ing suck big time, no question. we are done for, its all over and mcd set the franchise back 10 years...but i hope im wrong"

its kinda silly if you ask me. atleast some people are eating their crow and learning not to make stupid predictions anymore, others however...bf7 and company are just gonna get worse

Eh

If this next off-season we fired McD and Nolan and the new guy stepped in and traded Clady or Elvis off for a first and Alex Barron, I'd be right back into "We're going 3-13... but I hope I'm wrong"

baja
10-22-2009, 10:41 AM
I'm definitely beginning to get a slight whiff of "Coach of the Year" honors around here. ;D

Man I've been thinking that for some time now, I mean who is his reasonable challenge.

TheReverend
10-22-2009, 10:43 AM
Man I've been thinking that for some time now, I mean who is his reasonable challenge.

Sean Payton, Jim Caldwell (another undefeated first year coach), Brad Childress

Still, he's definitely got the edge, especially considering the volume of "turmoil" in Denver this past off-season.

My wish to receive the award:

Norv Turner

AJ can't fire the Coach of the Year :thumbsup:

baja
10-22-2009, 10:48 AM
Norv... Good point LOL

Rock Chalk
10-22-2009, 10:51 AM
Sean Payton, Jim Caldwell (another undefeated first year coach), Brad Childress

Still, he's definitely got the edge, especially considering the volume of "turmoil" in Denver this past off-season.

My wish to receive the award:

Norv Turner

AJ can't fire the Coach of the Year :thumbsup:

Sean Payton, Jim Caldwell and Brad Childress all have HoF/Pro-Bowl QBs and elite offenses. The Saints just improved their defense but other than that are the same team as last year. Caldwell just took the keys to the ferrari and didn't wreck it. Childress has AP and the Williams brothers.

Those three coaches have done fantastic jobs but everything pales in comparison to what McDaniels has done.

TheReverend
10-22-2009, 10:55 AM
Sean Payton, Jim Caldwell and Brad Childress all have HoF/Pro-Bowl QBs and elite offenses. The Saints just improved their defense but other than that are the same team as last year. Caldwell just took the keys to the ferrari and didn't wreck it. Childress has AP and the Williams brothers.

Those three coaches have done fantastic jobs but everything pales in comparison to what McDaniels has done.

Even when you agree with me, you add more details so it feels like you're arguing... it's maddening. :rofl:

http://www.scoresreport.com/2009/10/18/nfl-coach-of-the-year-power-rankings/

1. Josh McDaniels, Denver Broncos & Marvin Lewis, Cincinnati Bengals—After last weekend, these two are still tied, even though McDaniels’ team is 5-0 and Lewis’ is 4-1. Denver beat the Patriots and McDaniels’ mentor Bill Belichick last weekend in Denver, while Lewis’ Bengals had an emotional win over the Ravens in Baltimore a few days after defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer’s wife tragically passed away.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/275427-josh-mcdaniels-nfl-coach-of-the-year

In sports nowadays, we're all about premature calls. The New York Yankees and Philadelphia Phillies will be your matchup on the World Series odds and Denver Broncos head coach Josh McDaniels will be the NFL Head Coach Of The Year.

Alright guys, let's be serious. A lot of people hate the Broncos for being this good and a lot of people keep waiting for them to fail. The reality is that this team is 6-0 and they are a good football team.

The Broncos have also done things the right way. Dare I say, the Patriots way.

They are a smart football team that plays defense and doesn't make mistakes. They take what you give them, nickel and dime you up and down the field, and if you make mistakes (turnovers or missed tackles), they burn you. Is that what a good football should do?

Like the Patriots back in the days of yesteryear, who traded away a "franchise" quarterback in Drew Bledsoe, the Broncos also traded away their gunslinger in favor of a lesser known passer.

Then McDaniels removed one more and one more star as he made wide receiver Brandon Marshall stand in a corner until he was ready to join the rest of the team. Now the Broncos have a team - not a bunch of guys - but one tight knit team.

You have to give their defense credit, which has still yet to allow a fourth quarter point this season. While people are still waiting for defenses like Baltimore to turn around, the reality is that the landscape in the NFL has changed and while the Ravens defense is now bad, the Broncos defense is now good. Again, another smart move to hire Mike Nolan as the defensive coordinator.

Online betting handicappers have started to give the Broncos credit, pounding them last night as a 3.5-point underdog that was facing a 2-2 squad. It's only a matter of time before pundits, fans and the rest of the NFL starts respecting the Broncos.

McDaniels has orchestrated this perfect disaster and it has been impressive. he deserve credit and he should have already won Head Coach of the Year.

Cito Pelon
10-22-2009, 11:34 AM
In nearly 30 years of watching the NFL I've never see anything like this.

Last years D was literally one of the 5 worst defenses I have ever seen.

Some how McD and Co. picked up 7-8 new starters via the FA scrap pile(magically hitting on every single one of them), completely changed the scheme, practiced it for about 4 months, and...BAM!

Suddenly... they are one of the 10 best defenses I have ever seen.

I'll bet I never see anything like this again.

Please. The players Denver acquired wasn't the FA "scrap pile". That's insulting to them.

The FA acquisitions would have signed elsewhere if Denver didn't make the higher bid.

baja
10-22-2009, 12:07 PM
Even when you agree with me, you add more details so it feels like you're arguing... it's maddening. :rofl:

http://www.scoresreport.com/2009/10/18/nfl-coach-of-the-year-power-rankings/

1. Josh McDaniels, Denver Broncos & Marvin Lewis, Cincinnati Bengals—After last weekend, these two are still tied, even though McDaniels’ team is 5-0 and Lewis’ is 4-1. Denver beat the Patriots and McDaniels’ mentor Bill Belichick last weekend in Denver, while Lewis’ Bengals had an emotional win over the Ravens in Baltimore a few days after defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer’s wife tragically passed away.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/275427-josh-mcdaniels-nfl-coach-of-the-year

In sports nowadays, we're all about premature calls. The New York Yankees and Philadelphia Phillies will be your matchup on the World Series odds and Denver Broncos head coach Josh McDaniels will be the NFL Head Coach Of The Year.

Alright guys, let's be serious. A lot of people hate the Broncos for being this good and a lot of people keep waiting for them to fail. The reality is that this team is 6-0 and they are a good football team.

The Broncos have also done things the right way. Dare I say, the Patriots way.

They are a smart football team that plays defense and doesn't make mistakes. They take what you give them, nickel and dime you up and down the field, and if you make mistakes (turnovers or missed tackles), they burn you. Is that what a good football should do?

Like the Patriots back in the days of yesteryear, who traded away a "franchise" quarterback in Drew Bledsoe, the Broncos also traded away their gunslinger in favor of a lesser known passer.

Then McDaniels removed one more and one more star as he made wide receiver Brandon Marshall stand in a corner until he was ready to join the rest of the team. Now the Broncos have a team - not a bunch of guys - but one tight knit team.

<b>You have to give their defense credit, which has still yet to allow a fourth quarter point this season.</b> While people are still waiting for defenses like Baltimore to turn around, the reality is that the landscape in the NFL has changed and while the Ravens defense is now bad, the Broncos defense is now good. Again, another smart move to hire Mike Nolan as the defensive coordinator.

Online betting handicappers have started to give the Broncos credit, pounding them last night as a 3.5-point underdog that was facing a 2-2 squad. It's only a matter of time before pundits, fans and the rest of the NFL starts respecting the Broncos.

McDaniels has orchestrated this perfect disaster and it has been impressive. he deserve credit and he should have already won Head Coach of the Year.

Well that is a really nice post and this is a nice line but Cinci scored late in the game. Like the post though ;D

TheDave
10-22-2009, 12:34 PM
Please. The players Denver acquired wasn't the FA "scrap pile". That's insulting to them.

The FA acquisitions would have signed elsewhere if Denver didn't make the higher bid.

True, the bidding for guys like McBean, Fields, Davis, and Goodman was intense... Luckily we were able to outbid several other teams. Uhh

Sorry if I offended your delicate sesebilities with such a slander.

My point is Cito none of these guys excapt dawkins was highly thought of. The magical part is that EVERY FA we got has produced.

Something I've never seen before.

TonyR
10-22-2009, 12:44 PM
...guys like McBean, Fields, Davis, and Goodman...

To be fair, both Davis and Goodman were quality NFL starters last year, and Dawkins and Buckhalter also certainly don't qualify as "scrap heap" material. But I think you overall intended point is fair. Other than perhaps Dawkins we didn't make any fancy moves, but the moves we did make almost all seem to have worked out well.

(And I now see that your edit addresses this)

baja
10-22-2009, 12:49 PM
True, the bidding for guys like McBean, Fields, Davis, and Goodman was intense... Luckily we were able to outbid several other teams. Uhh

Sorry if I offended your delicate sesebilities with such a slander.

My point is Cito none of these guys excapt dawkins was highly thought of. The magical part is that EVERY FA we got has produced.

Something I've never seen before.

The good news is that it speaks to the values the new Broncos apply when assessing a player. It is also why Jay Cutler was traded.

rastaman
10-22-2009, 01:19 PM
In nearly 30 years of watching the NFL I've never see anything like this.

Last years D was literally one of the 5 worst defenses I have ever seen.

Some how McD and Co. picked up 7-8 new starters via the FA scrap pile(magically hitting on every single one of them), completely changed the scheme, practiced it for about 4 months, and...BAM!

Suddenly... they are one of the 10 best defenses I have ever seen.

I'll bet I never see anything like this again.

Good points. I think we need to consider here, the Defense we see in 2009 could be totally different of what we see in 2010 or 2011. Defenses and players can get old rather quickly and of course the injury bug can hit at anytime. There are so many varibles both foreseen and unforeseen that can change to fortunes of any defense or offense in the NFL. Especially if you consider salary cap and injuries.

The best way to hope and attempt to maintain the stellar performance of a defense or offense in todays salary cap restricted NFL is to try and draft, develope and sign via free agency 5 core guys on the offense and defense to build your team around. I think this is the format-plan you want to try and achieve.

These 5 core guys would consist of the following positions:

QB DT
RB DE
TE LB
WR S
C CB

IF an Owner, GM, and HC can develop a team coheisiveness, identity, and scheme on both sides of the ball based on 10 key players, the other 12 player will be very important roll players.

fontaine
10-22-2009, 04:40 PM
Depth on the line and at LB are both fantastic.

My two main injury concerns are Champ and Elvis. Confident that Reid and Ayers could play at a high level, but right now Elvis is playing at the HIGHEST level. As for Champ, I just haven't seen nearly enough of Alphonso to be comfortable with him missing a few weeks.

I'm not confident in Ayers at all. I thought he had a pretty mediocre to poor game against the Chargers. He was singled blocked most of the time and looked slow, sluggish and just tired. He made one good spin move to get past the Center and got a free shot at Rivers.

Except Rivers side stepped the tackle and Ayers completely whiffed.

What's worse though was he showed very little hustle. When Rivers fumbled the ball the only Bronco lying down on the ground and not chasing after it was Ayers who just looked on and made no effort to go after it.