Obama contmplating some good ole fashioned nationalism

[cutthemdown]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aPWqWZX1SyC4&refer=us

Jan. 2 (Bloomberg) -- President-elect Barack Obama’s advisers are looking at including a “buy American” provision in the economic-stimulus legislation that the incoming administration has made its first priority.

“We are reviewing the buy American proposal and we are committed to a plan that will save or create 3 million jobs, including jobs in manufacturing,” said Jen Psaki, a spokeswoman for Obama’s transition team.

With the U.S. amid its worst economic slump since World War II, Obama is working on a package combining tax cuts and spending on infrastructure, such as roads, bridges and transit systems, to boost growth.

The stimulus package must pass Congress, and Representative Chris Van Hollen, the Maryland Democrat who is a liaison between Congress and Obama’s transition team, said “we obviously want to focus our investments in areas where American industry will benefit.”

Still, Van Hollen, speaking in an interview on Bloomberg Television’s “Political Capital with Al Hunt,” said the aim of the legislation wasn’t to “set up walls” and that the stimulus would be aimed at “generating American jobs,” not triggering a “trade war.”

Obama will meet privately with Democratic congressional leaders on Jan. 5 in the Capitol and will hold discussions later with leaders in both parties, said Brendan Daly, a spokesman for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. The president-elect and lawmakers will discuss the stimulus measure and other legislation slated to move in the first weeks of the congressional session, Daly said.

Manufacturing Council

Nucor Corp. Chief Executive Officer Dan DiMicco said he will use his position as a member of the U.S. Department of Commerce’s manufacturing council to push for the use of domestically produced steel in such projects. Current requirements that American-made material be used in government projects are unevenly enforced, he said.

The New York Times reported yesterday that U.S. steelmakers are counting on government spending to make up for sagging demand from automakers and other industries.

U.S. steel demand fell to an estimated 104 million metric tons last year from 120.5 million in 2007, said Purchasing magazine, an industry publication.

Democrats are seeking to have legislation ready soon after Obama’s Jan. 20 inauguration, though Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell has threatened to slow that timetable.

Obama advisers and congressional Democrats estimate the stimulus plan may total $850 billion. Some economists are recommending as much as $1 trillion to spur the economy.






I'm really excited about Obama. I like his plan to let kids join a National Service to pay off college loans. I love this idea to use his new celebrity to push a pro buy American type plank in his platform. It's time for Americans to start taking care of their own again. We have a huge competition looming with China. It's time to stop buying there crap.

[Spider]

I like this plan .......

[cutthemdown]

I like this plan .......

Me to money spent in America, to Americans can only help. Maybe the dollar will drop but it won't be the end. We have resources in this country. We have smart people, hard working people in our country. We can make this work again. I'm so sick of people acting like it's over with for the USA.

[cutthemdown]

We have oil. We have more water then most. We can grow a ton of food. We have natural gas, gold, silver, coal all in good amounts. We can make steel and we know how to build. I don't see any reason we can't rebound from the huge mistake of thinking cheap crap from China and outsourcing every job was a good idea.

I'm all for free trade but only if the trade deficit is within reason.

[Play2win]

Bringing manufacturing back to the U.S. is probably the single most beneficial thing we could do to this country... That, and provide for post-secondary and graduate education to those want it and succeed at it...

[watermock]

First the banks, then corporations, then infrastructure controlled by the Federal Govt., or really the Bankers who control the Gov't.

Sounds like a controlled economy to anyone with half a brain. Now how many beauocrats/regulations are needed? 30/1 to screw in a light bulb?

Let's **** up the free market even more.

Let's keep trying to lift New Orleans above sea level...see how that works.

[Bronco Bob]

First the banks, then corporations, then infrastructure controlled by the Federal Govt., or really the Bankers who control the Gov't.

Sounds like a controlled economy to anyone with half a brain. Now how many beauocrats/regulations are needed? 30/1 to screw in a light bulb?

Let's **** up the free market even more.

Let's keep trying to lift New Orleans above sea level...see how that works.

And the problem with this is? The way you dolts have been running things
certainly didn't work out very well in the long run, now did it.

So always look for the union label,
it says we're able to make it in the U.S.A.!

[watermock]

Obama's workforce is going to be under the Obama National Workforce. It will not have the "Union" label.

We will have a 2-3 trillion dollar federal deficiet. Maybe 4 if the Afgahn war is expanded as planned.

[rastaman]

We have oil. We have more water then most. We can grow a ton of food. We have natural gas, gold, silver, coal all in good amounts. We can make steel and we know how to build. I don't see any reason we can't rebound from the huge mistake of thinking cheap crap from China and outsourcing every job was a good idea.

I'm all for free trade but only if the trade deficit is within reason.

I don't know about that. Free trade is why we find ourselves in the position we are now in.

A return to Fair Trade and reincorporating tariff taxes on all imported products back into the U.S., would have positive long term benefits to return financial and economic stability back to this country as well as strengthening the dollar.

Providing tax breaks to those companies and manufacturers to rebuild and reopen American factories will also have longer positive effects by providing jobs and a new tax revenue to replenish the treasury, would all be a great start as well.

Lastly, the Govt Accounting Office estimated that with the Reagan-Bush tax loopholes, the illegal offshore tax heaven accounts, and foreign-trans global companies do not pay an estimated $ 2 trillion dollars annually in taxes. Btwn 2009 and 2012, the Obama Administration needs to find away to get this money back!! This tax money can be used to go full speed ahead with investing in renewable energy infrastructures and these jobs can't be outsourced to 3rd world countries.

[W*GS]

I don't know about that. Free trade is why we find ourselves in the position we are now in.

Actually, no, but don't let your ignorance stand in the way.

A return to Fair Trade and reincorporating tariff taxes on all imported products back into the U.S., would have positive long term benefits to return financial and economic stability back to this country as well as strengthening the dollar.

How so?

Making goods more expensive for consumers and greatly increasing the odds that importers of American-made good will retaliate with tariffs of their own doesn't do us any good at all. No country ever made itself rich by cutting off trade - if that was the case, North Korea would be the wealthiest nation on the planet.

[ghwk]

First the banks, then corporations, then infrastructure controlled by the Federal Govt., or really the Bankers who control the Gov't.

Sounds like a controlled economy to anyone with half a brain. Now how many beauocrats/regulations are needed? 30/1 to screw in a light bulb?

Let's **** up the free market even more.

Let's keep trying to lift New Orleans above sea level...see how that works.

The concept of a "free market" is a joke and stopped working when we all stopped rolling up in our covered wagons and meeting in the village square to exchange goods and services because we all had equal access to that market if we chose to participate in it. It's a slanted, off balance market controlled by a very few individuals or power groups. I love reading editorials in the paper about free market and let the market place determine prices. What a frigging joke.

[W*GS]

The concept of a "free market" is a joke and stopped working when we all stopped rolling up in our covered wagons and meeting in the village square to exchange goods and services because we all had equal access to that market if we chose to participate in it. It's a slanted, off balance market controlled by a very few individuals or power groups. I love reading editorials in the paper about free market and let the market place determine prices. What a frigging joke.

Who controls markets?

[mosca]

We have oil. We have more water then most. We can grow a ton of food. We have natural gas, gold, silver, coal all in good amounts. We can make steel and we know how to build. I don't see any reason we can't rebound from the huge mistake of thinking cheap crap from China and outsourcing every job was a good idea.

I'm all for free trade but only if the trade deficit is within reason.
I agree and think this would be a good idea, but if and only if the fat cats agreed to get on board too - i.e. the multinational corporations.

[ghwk]

Who controls markets?

Depends which ones you talk about. Domestic oil prices? In large part the oligopoly that that is big oil.

[rastaman]

Actually, no, but don't let your ignorance stand in the way.



How so?

Making goods more expensive for consumers and greatly increasing the odds that importers of American-made good will retaliate with tariffs of their own doesn't do us any good at all. No country ever made itself rich by cutting off trade - if that was the case, North Korea would be the wealthiest nation on the planet.

Look man, this country needs to return the tariff laws and taxes that were in place for over 200 years in this country.....prior to Reagan getting elected in 1981 and totally dismantling America's tarrifs laws and taxes for goods entering into the U.S.

Every Industrialized nation in the world (the G8 or G7) all have tarrif laws and taxes on ON FOREIGN GOODS entering into their country!!! EXCEPT the U.S.!!!

Now why is the U.S. the only country that has all but repealed their own tariff laws and taxes since 1981???? Import-Export Tariff laws and taxes protect American jobs and American industries.

India and China know something you won't hear on conservative "business" programs. While China and India eagerly let multinational corporations move work from America to their nations, they fiercely protect their own domestic industries primarily through the use of tariffs - taxes on imported goods - and the strict regulation of imported labor.

We should do the same. To return balance to the international game of business, America can again use tariffs to balance trade relationships. This is not a new idea, by the way - it's how America has protected its economy from the founding of this nation right up until Clinton signed NAFTA and GATT.

Tariffs were an important aspect of American foreign policy from the administration of George Washington up until Bill Clinton got us into the World Trade Organization, thus eliminating most tariffs and trade "restrictions," letting multinational corporations instead of sovereign nations write the rules of international business.

The United States should pull out of the WTO and other multilateral treaties that give corporations the power to enforce their will on our government and on our workers. This will again allow us to impose leveling tariffs on work done overseas. Offshore labor can then be set in price - by adding tariffs to it - to equal a living wage in the United States.

If a company wants to hire people to answer the phone in India for two dollars an hour, fine. Let them do it - and pay a $10/hour tariff on top of the $2/hour wage. Most will simply return to the United States for their labor, and those that don't will enhance government coffers with funds that can be used for national healthcare and education of our workforce.

[W*GS]

Depends which ones you talk about. Domestic oil prices? In large part the oligopoly that that is big oil.

Almost all the oil on the planet is under control of governments.

[W*GS]

Look man, this country needs to return the tariff laws and taxes that were in place for over 200 years in this country.....prior to Reagan getting elected in 1981 and totally dismantling America's tarrifs laws and taxes for goods entering into the U.S.

Why?

Every Industrialized nation in the world (the G8 or G7) all have tarrif laws and taxes on ON FOREIGN GOODS entering into their country!!! EXCEPT the U.S.!!!

They do? Show me.

Now why is the U.S. the only country that has all but repealed their own tariff laws and taxes since 1981???? Import-Export Tariff laws and taxes protect American jobs and American industries.

Actually, they don't. Protectionism is a self-imposed blockade.

When are you going to counter my argument that if protectionism and autarky really worked, then North Korea ought to be the wealthiest nation on the planet?

India and China know something you won't hear on conservative "business" programs. While China and India eagerly let multinational corporations move work from America to their nations, they fiercely protect their own domestic industries primarily through the use of tariffs - taxes on imported goods - and the strict regulation of imported labor.

Would you trade the US' standard of living for India's or China's?

The United States should pull out of the WTO and other multilateral treaties that give corporations the power to enforce their will on our government and on our workers. This will again allow us to impose leveling tariffs on work done overseas. Offshore labor can then be set in price - by adding tariffs to it - to equal a living wage in the United States.

The consequence of such idiocy being that American companies wouldn't hire any "foreign" workers at all - non-American companies would, and eventually American companies would go in the ****ter. Add in the fact that American companies would immediately pass along those vastly increased labor costs to consumers via their prices, and we consumers would join them in the ****ter.

If a company wants to hire people to answer the phone in India for two dollars an hour, fine. Let them do it - and pay a $10/hour tariff on top of the $2/hour wage. Most will simply return to the United States for their labor, and those that don't will enhance government coffers with funds that can be used for national healthcare and education of our workforce.

Why not $1000/hour on top? 100x more means 100x more money to the government...

[ghwk]

Almost all the oil on the planet is under control of governments.

Which proves my point that the term free market is a sham. The oil producers are closely aligned with their governments to protect their interests. This represents a very few people making and controlling energy policy. The pricing of oil through speculation and futures also does not represent a free market as it is controlled and sometimes fabricated by the traders as we saw this past summer.

[W*GS]

Which proves my point that the term free market is a sham. The oil producers are closely aligned with their governments to protect their interests. This represents a very few people making and controlling energy policy. The pricing of oil through speculation and futures also does not represent a free market as it is controlled and sometimes fabricated by the traders as we saw this past summer.

So, a government controlling oil is an example of a market failure.

OK.

[rastaman]

Why?

The Tarriffs have been used sinced the birth of this nation. The concept was that if there was a dollar's worth of labor in a pair of shoes made in the USA, and somebody wanted to import shoes from China where there may only be ten cents worth of labor in those shoes, we'd level the playing field for labor by putting a 90-cent import tariff on each pair of shoes. Companies could choose to make their products here or overseas, but the ultimate cost of labor would be the same.

Then came the flat-worlders, led by misguided true believers and promoted by multinational corporations. Do away with those tariffs, they said, because they "restrain trade." Let everything in, and tax nothing. The result has been an explosion of cheap goods coming into our nation, and the loss of millions of good manufacturing jobs and thousands of manufacturing companies. Entire industry sectors have been wiped out.

These policies have kneecapped the American middle class. Our nation's largest employer has gone from being the unionized General Motors to the poverty-wages Wal-Mart.

They do? Show me.

Are you not even curious to research which major trading partners with the U.S. practice protectionism at the expense of our Nation???

Just of top, India refuses to allow Wal Marts into their country b/c their gov't protects their millions of small shop owners. Japan protects it automarket by not allowing an American Automobile manufacturer to set up shop in Japan and make American cars. The Japanese govt only allow so many U.S. cars made in America into Japan....and guess what! The TARRIFF TAX is really high!

I'm not going to do your research for you. You are either interested to find out which country's practice protectionism and impose high tax tarriffs on U.S. products or you're not.

Actually, they don't. Protectionism is a self-imposed blockade.

When are you going to counter my argument that if protectionism and autarky really worked, then North Korea ought to be the wealthiest nation on the planet?

Using Korea to buffer your argument is extreme at best. I'm only talking about returning to Trade policies and tarriffs back to 1979!!!! How close was the U.S. resmembling N. Korea back in 1979????

Would you trade the US' standard of living for India's or China's?

Our standard of living is rapidly going towards and resembling the standard of living of India and China! We have become a service sector Nation! We no longer make products in this country anymore!! Have you been living under a rock?? We have outsourced practically our entire manufacturing base!! I want to see a return to a standard of living that was was enjoyed from 1950-1979??? Is that asking for too much?

The consequence of such idiocy being that American companies wouldn't hire any "foreign" workers at all - non-American companies would, and eventually American companies would go in the ****ter. Add in the fact that American companies would immediately pass along those vastly increased labor costs to consumers via their prices, and we consumers would join them in the ****ter.

Ummmmmmm.....you are hanging onto failed conservative business models rehtoric that has proven to be wrong! Back in the pre-Reagan days, American companies made profits that were distributed among Americans. They used their profits to build more factories, or diversify into other businesses. The profits stayed in America. Foreign companies are buying up our water systems, our power generating systems, our mines, and our few remaining factories. All because "flat world" so-called "free trade" policies have turned us from a nation of wealthy producers into a nation of indebted consumers, leaving the world awash in dollars that are most easily used to buy off big chunks of America.

Why not $1000/hour on top? 100x more means 100x more money to the government...

Why not allow American companies to go abroad and set up companies and labor and production for the country and the people they have moved too! Imagine the profits, let say Levi Straus could have realized by opening up factories to cater to the populations of China!!! While keeping their North American factories in north America targeted toward the consumers in North America. Then Levi Strause would have an Asian market and a North American market of which they could now realize profits from both regions of the world.

[rastaman]

So, a government controlling oil is an example of a market failure.

OK.

So give us all an example of how Corporations and Privatizations have been good for all of America!!! I don't want to hear you "howl" about the market indexes.

[Bronco Bob]

So, a government controlling oil is an example of a market failure.


Not for the governments controlling the oil.

[W*GS]

rastaman, making your arguments in bold with lots of exclamation points doesn't make their substance any more sound.

Like I said, read some material on international trade and US trade policy.

If it's wrong for (say) Japan to restrict imports of American-made cars, what makes it right for us to restrict imports of Japanese-made cars?

[W*GS]

Not for the governments controlling the oil.

Hunh?

Since it's not "Big Oil" dictating the supply of oil, but governments, calling the market in crude a "free market" is just plain silly.

[W*GS]

So give us all an example of how Corporations and Privatizations have been good for all of America!!! I don't want to hear you "howl" about the market indexes.

I'm not the one "howl"-ing, you are.

[ghwk]

Hunh?

Since it's not "Big Oil" dictating the supply of oil, but governments, calling the market in crude a "free market" is just plain silly.

That really was my only point, people toss around the term free market as though the playing field is level and not influenced by lobbyists, corruption etc.

[rastaman]

rastaman, making your arguments in bold with lots of exclamation points doesn't make their substance any more sound.

Like I said, read some material on international trade and US trade policy.

If it's wrong for (say) Japan to restrict imports of American-made cars, what makes it right for us to restrict imports of Japanese-made cars?

Fair enough "bold" print a side. Which trade materials and US trade policies are you recommending?? Anyway, my point I was making is when Japan restricts our imported products and we unrestrict their products, then what happens is you have a Trade imbalance btwn the two countries totaling billions of dollars.

Now of course, we are only talking about the country of Japan, however, when you include all the country's the U.S. has trade imbalances with, now we're looking at the U.S. trade deficit in totality.

What are the impacts of a large and chronic trade deficits on the American economy. The consequences of the steady growth in the U.S. trade deficits, leads to lower wages for American workers at home and the incremental devaluation of the dollar!!

We are trading our country out for a bunch of cheap plastic crap from Wal Mart. The trade imbalance is responsible for billions of dollars leaving this country to flow to foreign countries where they in turn buy companies and real estate in the USA and turn us in to a service/factory worker society while the profits return to the foreign "investors". When you factor in "off shore" tax havens and "outsourcing" the picture gets even uglier.

[shakenbake]

This is a pretty simple argument to solve. Raise your hand if you have an extra $1000 to $2000 dollars laying around per person in your household. That is the average per person savings by companies moving some manufacturing outside of America. (I will find the source for this I just don't have the book with me know).

If everyone has an extra $1500 bucks to spend on goods then I say go for it.

**Edit the book is called "China: The Balance Sheet"

[rastaman]

This is a pretty simple argument to solve. Raise your hand if you have an extra $1000 to $2000 dollars laying around per person in your household. That is the average per person savings by companies moving some manufacturing outside of America. (I will find the source for this I just don't have the book with me know).

If everyone has an extra $1500 bucks to spend on goods then I say go for it.

**Edit the book is called "China: The Balance Sheet"

So how did we get to this point???

[cutthemdown]

I'm all for free trade with countries that also buy our stuff. It's time to start competing with China and India before it's too late.

India has more honors students with high IQ's then America has kids. They have that many people.

We are going to have to IMO be more protectionist as we move into the next few decades. Conserve our resources and develop new energy. Fight for Americas interests in the Arctic because we all know there is tons of oil and other goodies in that area. We should work with Canada to fight the Russian claims.

We should move to normalize relations with Cuba and thwart Chinese investment there.

We should continue to trade freely with Mexico and Canada. Canada a good partner and Mexico IMO could emerge as a powerful country in say 30 more yrs. Mexico has some decent natural resources and a pipeline to American consumers. All the cheap **** we buy from China we should try to get companies to go to Mexico and make.

I think Obama has some good ideas. We need to fight back and IMO we won't do it with tariffs and bans on imports etc, we will do it with incentives on our side. Tax breaks for companies that make stuff in America. Tax breaks for Americans who buy American products. Not to mention just the fact we as Americans can change our spending habits and make a huge difference.

If Obama asks us all to buy American more, he may just be charasmatic enough for people to actually do it.

[cutthemdown]

So how did we get to this point???

He's saying we save 1500 bucks a piece by buying cheap stuff from other countries.

[W*GS]

That really was my only point, people toss around the term free market as though the playing field is level and not influenced by lobbyists, corruption etc.

And governments...

[cutthemdown]

This is a pretty simple argument to solve. Raise your hand if you have an extra $1000 to $2000 dollars laying around per person in your household. That is the average per person savings by companies moving some manufacturing outside of America. (I will find the source for this I just don't have the book with me know).

If everyone has an extra $1500 bucks to spend on goods then I say go for it.

**Edit the book is called "China: The Balance Sheet"

With the dollar becoming a little devalued to Chinese Yuan we just might. In the end that money stays in the country and get's back into the America economy.

No way we can just accept the trade imbalance China expects us to.

[cutthemdown]

And governments...

and lifestyles. China will just move forward letting half the country prosper and the other 600 million to wallow in poverty. They pollute all over the place and have little in the way of environmental control.

The reason America wouldn't even think about Kyoto accords is because Chinas economy is the fastest, going to be the biggest, but they were exempt.

EXEMPT!!! the worst polluter is exempt? Yeah that makes sense. What we should do is mask our tariff as a green carbon tax to offset there polluting ways.

[rastaman]

He's saying we save 1500 bucks a piece by buying cheap stuff from other countries.

Boy don't spend all that in one place. The $1500 saved per person per year is a fine example of failed trickle down economics and equates to peanuts ins 21st Century purchasing power.

America is still stuck with a service sector economy while more and more people are becoming the Working Poor in this country. Question is, how do you bring back American prosperity once again???

[shakenbake]

India is becoming less and less a popular destination for foreign direct investment. The corruption is terrible there, you have to bribe everyone to get something done.

I work in the foreign direct investment/construction industry here in China, and we can get a project done here in about half the time or less than what it takes you to get it done in India. A lot of the companies I work with are becoming less and less enamored with India.

[shakenbake]

and lifestyles. China will just move forward letting half the country prosper and the other 600 million to wallow in poverty. They pollute all over the place and have little in the way of environmental control.

The reason America wouldn't even think about Kyoto accords is because Chinas economy is the fastest, going to be the biggest, but they were exempt.

EXEMPT!!! the worst polluter is exempt? Yeah that makes sense. What we should do is mask our tariff as a green carbon tax to offset there polluting ways.

I always chuckle at people who make environmental complaints about China without even understanding the policy or the people here.

Sure in the past China was willing to take all industry and the pollution they brought with them, but now you will have a damn hard time finding a place in China that will accept your factory if you have any substantial pollution. I know a company that wants to set up a paint factory here but we simply can't find a industrial zone that will accept them because of the pollution they produce.

Some zones are even taking measures to get rid of heavy polluters by taxing them heavily or just generally making it hard for them to operate in China.

The official policy is actually pretty good, and I have seen companies get tax incentives for building "Green Buildings"

As far as the people go they are way more energy conservation minded than people are in America. Way more people ride bikes, walk or take public transportation everywhere they go. They recently created a new law that requires people to bring a reusable bag to go shopping or pay an extra fee.

Even some very basic things like Heating and AC. They seem much less willing to turn on the heat during the winter and will just put on some extra clothes. Same goes for AC in the summer. They would rather open a window and turn on a fan that to turn on AC. Overall they are much more energy conservation minded that people in the west, from what I have experienced. They just have 1.3 Billion people so obviously they are going to be issues. If those 1.3 billion consumed energy resources like we do in America there is no way the planet could support it.

I was at a conference the other day and I heard a funny statement from a British guy who said that China has done more to stop global warming than any other country on earth..... Its called the one child policy...

[cutthemdown]

I always chuckle at people who make environmental complaints about China without even understanding the policy or the people here.

Sure in the past China was willing to take all industry and the pollution they brought with them, but now you will have a damn hard time finding a place in China that will accept your factory if you have any substantial pollution. I know a company that wants to set up a paint factory here but we simply can't find a industrial zone that will accept them because of the pollution they produce.

Some zones are even taking measures to get rid of heavy polluters by taxing them heavily or just generally making it hard for them to operate in China.

The official policy is actually pretty good, and I have seen companies get tax incentives for building "Green Buildings"

As far as the people go they are way more energy conservation minded than people are in America. Way more people ride bikes, walk or take public transportation everywhere they go. They recently created a new law that requires people to bring a reusable bag to go shopping or pay an extra fee.

Even some very basic things like Heating and AC. They seem much less willing to turn on the heat during the winter and will just put on some extra clothes. Same goes for AC in the summer. They would rather open a window and turn on a fan that to turn on AC. Overall they are much more energy conservation minded that people in the west, from what I have experienced. They just have 1.3 Billion people so obviously they are going to be issues. If those 1.3 billion consumed energy resources like we do in America there is no way the planet could support it.

I was at a conference the other day and I heard a funny statement from a British guy who said that China has done more to stop global warming than any other country on earth..... Its called the one child policy...



Ok then no problem...China can be exempt from 3rd world status and join the big boys when it comes to global warming. No reason to exempt China if they are already up to it right?

[cutthemdown]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iC_8YQET6ZYiDrtbf6cYwmlIXFlw


There is a story about Hong Kongs horrid air.

I'm not saying China not trying in some ways. I heard the spent 200 billion on environmental projects from 2006-2008. I'm saying since we are competing with China, and they are growing so fast, they have all this debt of ours, there is no reason to expect less from them the the EU or North America when it comes to helping out around the world, working to clean up the greenhouse gas and associated global warming problems.

Also IMO they have to completely open up there markets to American products. We have movies about Tibet we want to market there.

[shakenbake]

Ok then no problem...China can be exempt from 3rd world status and join the big boys when it comes to global warming. No reason to exempt China if they are already up to it right?

Well they are still 3rd world status... Outside of a few major cities (and area's in those cities) China and the Chinese people are pretty damn poor.

You said they were doing nothing to stop pollution, that simply isn't true. They do have measures in place and are doing things to get control of the situation. But you are more than welcome to carry on with you uniformed opinion and spew bs without understanding the situation or the measures being put in to place.

[shakenbake]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iC_8YQET6ZYiDrtbf6cYwmlIXFlw


There is a story about Hong Kongs horrid air.

I'm not saying China not trying in some ways. I heard the spent 200 billion on environmental projects from 2006-2008. I'm saying since we are competing with China, and they are growing so fast, they have all this debt of ours, there is no reason to expect less from them the the EU or North America when it comes to helping out around the world, working to clean up the greenhouse gas and associated global warming problems.

Also IMO they have to completely open up there markets to American products. We have movies about Tibet we want to market there.

I didn't say pollution wasn't a problem here it is a big problem. What I am saying is that they are taking measures to get it under control.

They contend they would do more but they don't have the technology and the west in unwilling to give it to them.....

[cutthemdown]

Just a question can I as an American have 100% ownership of land in China?

[shakenbake]

Just a question can I as an American have 100% ownership of land in China?

No one can, not even Chinese people... Can you have 100% ownership of land in America ( go ask Meck)

[cutthemdown]

I didn't say pollution wasn't a problem here it is a big problem. What I am saying is that they are taking measures to get it under control.

They contend they would do more but they don't have the technology and the west in unwilling to give it to them.....

Why should we give it to them? They have how many American dollars? I mean are they poor or do they have all of this American debt? Are they the 4th biggest economy? or some 3rd world country with it's hand out. IMO China wants to be both and that's not how it works. If you want the technology then you buy it. The west has spent billions of that debt of ours you have to make that technology.

China can't have it both ways for much longer.

People in the EU are getting sick of it as well. I just heard European candle makers pissed because of cheap Chinese candles. Probably made in a sweat shop by a 10 yr old.

[shakenbake]

Why should we give it to them? They have how many American dollars? I mean are they poor or do they have all of this American debt? Are they the 4th biggest economy? or some 3rd world country with it's hand out. IMO China wants to be both and that's not how it works. If you want the technology then you buy it. The west has spent billions of that debt of ours you have to make that technology.

China can't have it both ways for much longer.

People in the EU are getting sick of it as well. I just heard European candle makers pissed because of cheap Chinese candles. Probably made in a sweat shop by a 10 yr old.

I think they are willing to buy it, no one will sell it to them because of patent concerns which is a legitimate concern.

The average person in Shanghai (which is the wealthiest city in China) makes between 300 and 600 US dollars per month.

The reason why they hold our debt is more of our problem than thier's. They like to save, we like to spend.....

I still haven't seen those sweat shops...

[cutthemdown]

No one can, not even Chinese people... Can you have 100% ownership of land in America ( go ask Meck)

so then in reality that is a huge protectionist measure wouldn't you say. Does China want free trade or not. Also don't they have a bunch of tariffs and products they won't even allow?

[Spider]

No one can, not even Chinese people... Can you have 100% ownership of land in America ( go ask Meck)

except in Wyoming , all you can own is surface .. and you have to grant public access to BLM lands

[shakenbake]

so then in reality that is a huge protectionist measure wouldn't you say. Does China want free trade or not. Also don't they have a bunch of tariffs and products they won't even allow?

The biggest tariffs are on things like cars, because China wanted to develop an automobile industry. I think that is changing and the tariffs are coming down. They will never have a home grown automobile industry.


As far as the land goes, you get a 50 year lease on the land, so I don't think people really see it as a big issues.

[watermock]

Every time we give/sell China new tech or product, they just reverse engineer and say F-ck u!

A Texan living in China. That's rich.

[cutthemdown]

Every time we give/sell China new tech or product, they just reverse engineer and say F-ck u!

A Texan living in China. That's rich.

Which is why the playing field is unfair. We have to do a little mongering with China to even things up. If they steal this much, then we tariff some to make that money back. Give it back to American companies through tax breaks.

Free trade is really important. And private ownership is also. The govt shouldn't be looking to take over everything. Obviously though in some cases they are having to do that. We have to compete with China however we can.

[shakenbake]

Which is why the playing field is unfair. We have to do a little mongering with China to even things up. If they steal this much, then we tariff some to make that money back. Give it back to American companies through tax breaks.

Free trade is really important. And private ownership is also. The govt shouldn't be looking to take over everything. Obviously though in some cases they are having to do that. We have to compete with China however we can.

You act like we have no tariffs in place when it comes to trade....

I agree we have to watch them closely and not let them steal our technology. Most companies go to great lengths to protect their research and technology, and the Chinese government has been better about going after those who try to steal it or reverse engineer it.

I think their argument is, are we trying to save the planet or are we trying to make money on products to save the planet?

[shakenbake]

Every time we give/sell China new tech or product, they just reverse engineer and say F-ck u!

A Texan living in China. That's rich.

There are lots of Texans living in China.