Gaza in flames

[mhgaffney]

The death count in Gaza is now over 400 -- and counting -- many of them women and children. Israel has refused a 2 day cease fire. The bombing continues. This photo just came from Gaza via a peace activist friend.
MHG

[mhgaffney]

As she points out -- this is not a war. Given that the Palestinians are almost defenseless -- slaughter is more accurate. MHG

I fear for the future of Judaism today.

December 31st, 2008
Tema Okun | ICAHD-USA
http://icahdusa.org/2008/267

As I write, Israel is pounding Gaza with bombs and bullets, not yet satisfied with having killed and injured 1500 people, over a third women and children. Israel claims they don’t target civilians. Six little girls in one family were shot dead in front of their house, making this claim meaningless. The U.S. media tells us Israel is “at war” with Hamas. To call the relentless bombing of a 139 square mile area by the world’s 4th largest military “war” is ludicrous, just one more trick to keep us distracted from thinking too long or hard about the power imbalance of a 4-decades long inhumane Occupation.

I can hear the howl of protests now from the organized Jewish community, which would prefer to label me a self-hating anti-Semitic Jew than face the realities of how Israel is changing the face of Judaism. We forget that less than 50 years ago the Jewish community was hotly debating the pros and cons of statehood; we were free to argue either side without the vicious labels that function as labels always do – to stop people from thinking about what is being said and instead focus on the person saying it. The anti-Zionist arguments of the ‘30s and ‘40s have become dangerously and heartbreakingly realized – we are so obsessed with the mechanisms of statehood that we have willingly forsaken the meaning of our identity as Jews.

Every bomb dropped, every concrete slab of wall built, every acre of land illegally taken, every demolition of a Palestinian home, should force us to come to grips with the fact that to be Jewish in 2008 is no longer about our cultural ties one to the other, our shared values, our collective history. To be Jewish is now measured by our allegiance to Israel; if it was more than that, then our communities would be alive with protests about what we are doing in Gaza.

We are like the child who has been abused and grows up to recycle the abuse on a less powerful woman or child. We make all kinds of excuses for why we have to be abusive; we run the familiar tapes about the threat of anti-Semitism, the hatred of Hamas, the continued shelling of rockets from Gaza into Israel… the list is long and familiar. Yet I have not met a single American Jew (or American, for that matter) who has spent any time in Palestine who continues to recite this list. I do not claim that Israelis live in the kind of stability most of us know here or that the solutions are simple. I do claim, however, that the life Israel forces on the Palestinian people in the name of safety and security is not one any of us would be willing or able to endure.

For the most part the Jewish community here doesn’t know, doesn’t see because to know and to see would mean admitting that we are paying too steep a price for this homeland, this state. We have become comfortable believing that a Jewish life is worth more than a Palestinian one. I’ve sat across the table from devout Jews screaming at me that all Arabs do is breed suicide bombers, without seeing that their screaming hatred of Palestinians is the flip side of our experience. I’ve been called names by respected elders in the Jewish community because I dared to speak about the inhumanity I witnessed in Palestine with my own eyes; this in a community once proud of its ability to argue multiple sides of any issue. I’ve had Jewish leaders of all kinds tell me to keep quiet, now is not the time, don’t speak of it, urging a conditioned silence that is terrifyingly familiar.

As a Jew, I take to heart the teachings of Rabbi Hillel, who instructs us across the ages not to do to others that which we would not want done to us. As a Jew, I understand our invocation of “never again” as universal, a lesson from the Holocaust we should apply to all people. As a Jew, I am proud of our strong cultural commitment to justice. I thought once that these were the things that defined what it meant to be Jewish.
I no longer think so, for what seems to matter most to us now is our unquestioning allegiance to a state that does horrific things in our name. Judaism is not at risk from Hamas, Palestinians, or anti-Semitism. Judaism is at risk because we are silent when we should speak up, blind when we should see. In our haste to be like every other nation, to be powerful regardless of the price, we are indeed killing the very thing that makes us who and what we are. Bent on achieving a security bought with the lives of innocent people, we can’t seem to grasp the age-old lesson that raw force only strengthens the resolve of people to resist. I can’t help but wonder what we have saved, what we have made secure, when the only experience that literally millions of people have of us is one of daily injustice and oppression.

I refuse to conflate Judaism with Israel. I am driven by my deep concern for our future as a people. We may have already gone too far to reclaim Judaism to itself. I do not know. I only know I do not want us to lose ourselves to the continued justification of that which cannot be justified.

[TheReverend]

But... if the US got involved to try and stop it, you would be balls deep in some conspiracy right?

[cutthemdown]

But... if the US got involved to try and stop it, you would be balls deep in some conspiracy right?

That isn't ever going to happen. Only way we would get involved is if Syria or Iran attacked.

[cutthemdown]

The death count in Gaza is now over 400 -- and counting -- many of them women and children. Israel has refused a 2 day cease fire. The bombing continues. This photo just came from Gaza via a peace activist friend.
MHG

I saw that same man in a picture on CNN or some news site last night.

[TheReverend]

I saw that same man in a picture on CNN or some news site last night.

I'll bet they all look alike to you, racist!

[W*GS]

Yep, the one-sided "Israel (and its puppet, the Jew-controlled United States) are entirely at fault" view from gaffney.

Expect many more threads devoted to this, since gaffney is damned-near orgasmic over being able to bash Israel.

[baja]

Yep, the one-sided "Israel (and its puppet, the Jew-controlled United States) are entirely at fault" view from gaffney.

Expect many more threads devoted to this, since gaffney is damned-near orgasmic over being able to bash Israel.

hard to believe even you can condone this slather .

[mhgaffney]

What you guys don't want to face is that we ARE involved. We are in it up to our necks.

Israel is using US made F-16s, US-made helicopter gunships, US-made bombs, ammunition, and US-made equipment of various kinds. We are in this up to our neck.

Also, the US has blocked the UN from intervening to halt the bloodshed. So now the US is officially supporting these attacks.

Russia apparently tried to mediate a cease fire -- but the Israelis refused.

Bush is cheering on the Israelis. As for Obama he has refused to comment. Under the circumstances, however, his silence can only be interepreted as support for what Israel is doing. Surely that is how the world sees it.

Obama was elected on a platform of change -- and he made statements about becoming involved to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The sad truth, I am afraid, is that Obama is going to be yet another rubber stamp for whatever Israel wants to do. This should come as no surprise, given Obama's choice of a hard line Zionist (Emmanuel) for his chief of staff -- and his selection of Hillary (another hard line Zionist) for Secretary of State. Was anyone paying attention?

I hate to prejudge Obama. I would like to give him a chance. But if he will not lead now --- then when??

Now is the moment for strong leadership. And even though Obama is not yet President -- he could certainly make his views known. Israel needs to be sternly rebuked -- in no uncertain terms. The last US president who did this was Dwight D Eisenhower -- at the time of the 1956 Suez War -- when Israel (and France and the UK) invaded Sinai. Ike ordered them out -- and out they went.

My what a different a half century makes. Today it is Israel giving the orders.

The tail is wagging the dog. America is not only bankrupt financially -- and economically -- we are also bankrupt in the sense of being devoid of leadership.

What grim way to start the new year.

MHG

[barryr]

Where are the threads when Israel gets bombed? Oh, that's right, they are supposed to just accept that as a way of life.

[ak1971]

This photo just came from Gaza via a peace activist friend.
MHG

Thats the worst photoshop I've seen in ahwile. Nice to see that smoke doesnt take up the whole frame..ever been in a fire?

[barryr]

Probably just like in Lebanon, the media getting its news and pictures from terrorist organizations.

[orinjkrush]

Could be a premeditated attempt to pull Iran in and then the US.
Should be interesting global chess.

[The Lone Bolt]

Where are the threads when Israel gets bombed? Oh, that's right, they are supposed to just accept that as a way of life.

But we all know Hamas are the "good guys."


Gaza: Armed Palestinian Groups Commit Grave Crimes
Fighters Execute Captives, Attack Hospital, Put Journalists at Serious Risk
June 12, 2007

These attacks by both Hamas and Fatah constitute brutal assaults on the most fundamental humanitarian principles. The murder of civilians not engaged in hostilities and the willful killing of captives are war crimes, pure and simple.
Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director for Human Rights Watch

During recent fighting in the Gaza Strip, armed Palestinian groups have committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, in some cases amounting to war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

In internal Palestinian fighting over the last three days, both Fatah and Hamas military forces have summarily executed captives, killed people not involved in hostilities, and engaged in gun battles with one another inside and near Palestinian hospitals. On Saturday, armed Palestinians from Islamic Jihad and the Fatah-affiliated Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade used a vehicle with a “TV” insignia to attack an Israeli military position on the border with Gaza.

“These attacks by both Hamas and Fatah constitute brutal assaults on the most fundamental humanitarian principles,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director for Human Rights Watch. “The murder of civilians not engaged in hostilities and the willful killing of captives are war crimes, pure and simple.”

On Sunday, Hamas military forces captured 28-year-old Muhammad Swairki, a cook for President Mahmoud Abbas’s presidential guard, and executed him by throwing him to his death, with his hands and legs tied, from a 15-story apartment building in Gaza City. Later that night, Fatah military forces shot and captured Muhammad al-Ra’fati, a Hamas supporter and mosque preacher, and threw him from a Gaza City high-rise apartment building. On Monday, Hamas military forces attacked the home in Beit Lahiya of Jamal Abu al-Jadiyan, a senior Fatah official, captured him, and executed him on the street with multiple gunshots. On Tuesday, there were reports of additional killings of individuals not involved in hostilities.

In addition, Fatah and Hamas forces engaged in battles in and around two Gaza Strip hospitals on Monday. After Hamas fighters killed Fatah intelligence officer Yasir Bakar, Fatah gunmen began firing mortars and rocket-propelled grenades at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, drawing Hamas fire from inside the building, killing one Hamas and one Fatah fighter. At a hospital in Beit Hanun, three family members with ties to Fatah, `Id al-Masri and his sons, Farij and Ibrahim, were killed, and others wounded. Hospital officials reported that the three were being treated for injuries sustained earlier. One was reportedly shot at close range.

All parties engaged in armed conflict are subject to customary international humanitarian law, which forbids deliberate harming of civilians and those who are not engaged in armed hostilities at the time, Human Rights Watch said. International humanitarian law also provides special protection to medical personnel and hospitals. Military and civilian hospitals and medical units must be protected and respected in all circumstances.

In the June 9 incident, four armed Palestinians drove a white jeep bearing “TV” insignias to a fence on the Gaza-Israel border and fired at Israeli soldiers. The Israelis returned fire, killing one Palestinian. Spokesmen for Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, an offshoot of Fatah, claimed responsibility for the attack. An Islamic Jihad spokesperson denied that Palestinians had put press markings on the jeep used in the June 9 attack, and accused the Israeli military of doing so after the fact. However, photos taken by the Associated Press as the attack was under way show the letters “TV” written in red on the front of the jeep.

“Using a vehicle with press markings to carry out a military attack is a serious violation of the laws of war, and it also puts journalists at risk,” said Whitson.

Customary international humanitarian law provides that journalists not taking direct part in hostilities in armed conflict zones “shall be considered as civilians.” The deliberate abuse of this protected status in order to breach the confidence of an adversary in an attempt to kill, injure or capture them, would amount to an act of perfidy, a serious violation of international humanitarian law.

The Palestinian Journalists Union on Sunday criticized the use by armed factions of press insignia in a statement: “The use of vehicles that carry ‘Press,’ ‘TV’ or other signs ... exposes journalists’ lives to danger, gives the Israeli occupation a pretext to target and kill journalists and restricts their ability to perform their professional and national duties. … We demand all parties stop using these methods.”

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/06/12/gaza-armed-palestinian-groups-commit-grave-crimes

Oh wait . . . lemme guess . . . it's another government conspiracy to discredit Hamas, right Gaff?

[cutthemdown]

Israel is really taking it to Hamas. They have now started targeting the top leaders.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090101/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians


GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israel dropped a one-ton bomb on the home of a Hamas strongman Thursday, killing him along with two wives and four children in the first attack on the top leadership of Gaza's rulers. As the aerial bombardment escalated, the army said it was also poised to launch a ground invasion. Israel also appeared to be sounding out a possible diplomatic exit from the 6-day-old military offensive against Hamas by demanding international monitors as a key term of any future truce.

The bombing targeted 49-year-old Nizar Rayan, ranked among Hamas' top five decision-makers in Gaza. His four-story apartment building crashed to the ground, sending a thick plume of smoke into the air and heavily damaging neighboring buildings. It killed Rayan and 11 others, including two of his four wives and four of his 12 children, Palestinian health officials said. The Muslim faith allows men to have up to four wives.

Israel has made clear that no one in Hamas is immune in this offensive, and the strike that flattened Rayan's apartment building in the northern town of Jebaliya drove that message home.

"We are trying to hit everybody who is a leader of the organization, and today we hit one of their leaders," Israeli Vice Premier Haim Ramon said in a television interview.

Hamas leaders went into hiding before Israel launched the offensive on Saturday, but Rayan was known for openly defying Israel. He was seen earlier Thursday praying in a mosque, and the military said he had a tunnel under his house that could serve as an escape route.

A professor of Islamic law, Rayan was closely tied to Hamas' military wing and was respected in Gaza for donning combat fatigues and personally participating in clashes against Israeli forces. He sent one of his sons on an October 2001 suicide mission that killed two Israeli settlers in Gaza.

Defense officials said a one-ton bomb was used to attack Rayan's home, and that weapons stored inside set off secondary explosions. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak to the media.

Israel has assassinated top Hamas officials in the past, including the group's paraplegic spiritual leader, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, who was killed in a wheelchair as he left a mosque in 2004. It had halted the practice during a recent six-month truce, which expired last month and collapsed into all-out violence last week.

Israel launched the offensive to crush militants who have been terrorizing southern Israel with rocket fire from Gaza since the truce expired.

Israeli warplanes have carried out some 500 sorties against Hamas targets, and helicopters have flown hundreds more combat missions, a senior Israeli military officer said Wednesday.

More than 400 Gazans have been killed and some 1,700 have been wounded, Gaza health officials said. The U.N. says the death toll includes more than 60 civilians, 34 of them children.

Three Israeli civilians and one soldier have also died in rocket attacks that have reached deeper into Israel than ever before, bringing one-eighth of the population within rocket range.

Throughout the day, huge blasts had rocked cities and towns across Gaza as Israeli warplanes went after Gaza's parliament building, militant field operatives, police and cars. The military said aircraft also bombed smuggling tunnels along the Gaza-Egypt border, part of an ongoing attempt to cut off Hamas' last lifeline to the world outside the embattled Palestinian territory.

So far, the campaign to crush rocket fire on southern Israel has been conducted largely from the air. But military spokeswoman Maj. Avital Leibovich said preparations for a ground operation were complete.

"The infantry, the artillery and other forces are ready. They're around the Gaza Strip, waiting for any calls to go inside," Leibovich said.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told a meeting of mayors of southern communities Thursday that Israel would not shy from using its vaunted military power.

"We have no interest in a long war. We do not desire a broad campaign. We want quiet," Olmert said. "We don't want to display our might, but we will employ it if necessary."

Thousands of soldiers were massed along the border with Gaza, backed by tanks and artillery. Along the border, the ground troops watched warplanes and attack helicopters flying into Gaza, cheering each time they heard the explosion of an airstrike.

Hamas threatened to take revenge against the Israeli soldiers massed along the border with Gaza.

"We are waiting for you to enter Gaza to kill you or make you into Schalits," the group said in a statement, referring to Sgt. Gilad Schalit who was seized by Hamas-affiliated militants 2- 1/2 years ago and remains in captivity.

Israeli Cabinet ministers have been unswayed by international calls to end the violence.

Instead, they authorized the military to push ahead with its campaign against militants, who fired more than 30 rockets into Israel Thursday, the military said. No injuries were reported, but an eight-story house in Ashdod, 23 miles from Gaza, was hit by a rocket.

Israel's foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, was in Paris on Thursday to prepare for an upcoming Mideast visit by French President Nicolas Sarkozy to push for an end to the violence. She told reporters the offensive was launched "to change the equation" with Hamas. She said the operation has badly damaged the Islamic militant group.

"We affected most of the infrastructure of terrorism in Gaza Strip and the question (of) whether it's enough or not will be according to our assessment on a daily basis," Livni said.

Earlier this week, Olmert rebuffed a French proposal for a two-day suspension of hostilities. But at the same time, he seemed to be looking for a diplomatic way out, telling Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other world leaders that Israel wouldn't agree to a truce unless international monitors took responsibility for enforcing it, government officials said. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the talks were confidential.

International intervention helped Israel accept a truce that ended its 2006 war with Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas, when the U.N. agreed to station peacekeepers to enforce the terms. This time, Israel isn't seeking a peacekeeping force, but a monitoring body that would judge compliance on both sides.

The idea was floated before the offensive but did not gain traction because of the complications created by the existence of rival Palestinian governments in the West Bank and Gaza, defense officials said.

Gaza has been under Hamas rule since the militant group overran it in June 2007; the West Bank has remained under the control of moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who has been negotiating peace with Israel for more than a year but has no influence over Hamas. Bringing in monitors would require cooperation between the fierce rivals.

Abbas confidant Nabil Abu Rdeneh said the Palestinian president is asking for a cease-fire and an international presence to monitor Israel's commitment to it.

[mhgaffney]

Isarel has banned the western press from Gaza -- so there are few if any available photos of Gaza in the mainstream press.

Here is another shot -- from the Internet. As you can see the destruction is extensive.

Others are posted at
http://www.pixcetera.com/news/israel-pounds-gaza/44244

[mhgaffney]

You call these surgical strikes?

No it's shock and awe Israeli style

[cutthemdown]

You call these surgical strikes?

No it's shock and awe Israeli style

if those were the building they wanted to hit then yes I call it pretty accurate. Having said that let's be realistic these are 500 and 1000 pound bombs. All that damage right there was probably done by 2 bombs.

Now like I said if those building were not targets then I'd say that's collateral damage.

[Garcia Bronco]

Where are the threads when Israel gets bombed? Oh, that's right, they are supposed to just accept that as a way of life.

Gaffney says those don't really count because they are homemade bombs and don't really do any damage. When asked if we could launch one at his house, the requests got no comment.

[The Lone Bolt]

Gaffney says those don't really count because they are homemade bombs and don't really do any damage. When asked if we could launch one at his house, the requests got no comment.

LOL

[Spider]

I have seen plenty of Israel being bombed , 2 I remember the most was an Ambulance turned into a bomb and went into a Jewish barrio and went off , then the second was a Hotel in Israel , a wedding was taking place , people were dancing , then boom .........

[mhgaffney]

The suicide attacks got all of the attention in the news.

What went mostly unreported -- especially in the US --- were the mass peace marches in the W Bank and Gaza in the 1990s. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians marched peacefully -- showing their overwhelming support for a peace settlement.

All the while Israel was violating the terms of the Oslo peace talks by vastly accerating its construction of new settlements in the W Bank. The US turned a blind eye to these violations. Of cousre, the Paletsinians could see what was hapening. Facts were being created on the ground.

Israel's generous peace offer was a disgrace that no leader worth his salt could ever accept. The Palestinian state would have been reduced to a series of isolated enclaves in a tiny fraction of the original land of Palestine -- all surrounded by Israeli highways, checkpoints and barbed wire -- essentially what we have now in Gaza.

This "generous offer" was portrayed in the US press as genuine -- a big fat lie. If the Arabs had made such an offer to Israel it would have been immediately rejected as disgraceful.

Arafat was set up to be the scapegoat in this charade -- and was excoriated for not acepting the so called "generous offer." Clinton that bastard played a major role in the framing of Arafat. Clinton was eager to shift the blame for the failed talks away from himself.

The truth is that Clinton bears a huge measure of blame. As I stated, Clinton ignored Israel's ruch toi build new settlements. Clinton never held Israel accountable.

In fact, Clinton had no policy. His policy was simply to support whatever Israel wanted. The US superpower had no position of its own -- other than to back the Israeli plan. How pathetic for a nation that calls itself a great power. All the whilke, Israel was calling the shots -- wagging the dog.

This is an accurate summary of what happened n the 1990s -- but these inconvenient truths are never mentioned here in the US. The suicide bombers get all the attention. Arabs are portrayed as terrorists. Israel can do no wrong.

As yourself: Why would Israel's leaders allow a tiny fraction of terrorist attacks to sway their policy? Terrorism must never be allowed to derail a nation's policy. But this assumes a genuine committment to peace talks and the endgame of a just political settlement.

MHG

[W*GS]

How many times must Palestinian terrorists use suicide bombers before you find it an unacceptable tactic, gaffney?

Once? Clearly not.

Twice? Suicide bombings are still OK, correct?

5 times? 10 times? 100 times?

[mhgaffney]

I do not support suicide attacks. I've stated this many times -- but you never listen.

The real issue is state terrorism -- which happens on a vastly bigger scale -- and is the reason for the suicide attacks in the first place -- which are acts of desperation.

The problem is your double standard. You think state terrorism is groovy. You are blind to it. You choose not see it -- because you think whatever we do is OK.

Let us be clear: Dropping bombs on civilians in Gaza is terrorism -- pure and simple. It is not "Israel defending itself."

MHG

[W*GS]

As expected, since Israel isn't perfect, whatever the Palestinians do in "retaliation" or "desperation" is acceptable.

Suicide bombings are A-OK in gaffneyland.

Of course, the concept that the Palestinians might be pawns used by bigger powers in the region is something that's never crossed his mind.

[cutthemdown]

I do not support suicide attacks. I've stated this many times -- but you never listen.

The real issue is state terrorism -- which happens on a vastly bigger scale -- and is the reason for the suicide attacks in the first place -- which are acts of desperation.

The problem is your double standard. You think state terrorism is groovy. You are blind to it. You choose not see it -- because you think whatever we do is OK.

Let us be clear: Dropping bombs on civilians in Gaza is terrorism -- pure and simple. It is not "Israel defending itself."

MHG

OK then the real question is what came first, Israel being attacked, or Israel attacking Palestinians.

[kappys]

OK then the real question is what came first, Israel being attacked, or Israel attacking Palestinians.

Not really. Isreal was attacked first but that doesn't give her the right to torture Palestinians any more than 9/11 gave us the right to torture prisoners at Abu Grahib.

[mhgaffney]

Neither is correct.

What came first was Israel's decision to strangle Gaza -- which was an act of war.

Israel imposed collective punishment on Gaza after the 2006 election -- to punish the Paletsinoians for electing Hamas.

I will post Ury Avnery's latest article -- which provides an excellent review of how all of this played out. It's highly recommended.

MHG

[mhgaffney]

January 2 - 4, 2009

How Israel is Multiplying Hamas by a Thousand

Molten Lead in Gaza

By URI AVNERY

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery01022009.html

JUST AFTER MIDNIGHT, Aljazeera’s Arabic channel was reporting on events in Gaza. Suddenly the camera was pointing upwards towards the dark sky. The screen was pitch black. Nothing could be seen, but there was a sound to be heard: the noise of airplanes, a frightening, a terrifying droning.

It was impossible not to think about the tens of thousands of Gazan children who were hearing that sound at that moment, cringing with fright, paralyzed by fear, waiting for the bombs to fall.

* * *

“ISRAEL MUST defend itself against the rockets that are terrorizing our Southern towns,” the Israeli spokesmen explained. “Palestinians must respond to the killing of their fighters inside the Gaza Strip,” the Hamas spokesmen declared.

As a matter of fact, the cease-fire did not collapse, because there was no real cease-fire to start with. The main requirement for any cease-fire in the Gaza Strip must be the opening of the border crossings. There can be no life in Gaza without a steady flow of supplies. But the crossings were not opened, except for a few hours now and again. The blockade on land, on sea and in the air against a million and a half human beings is an act of war, as much as any dropping of bombs or launching of rockets. It paralyzes life in the Gaza Strip: eliminating most sources of employment, pushing hundreds of thousands to the brink of starvation, stopping most hospitals from functioning, disrupting the supply of electricity and water.

Those who decided to close the crossings – under whatever pretext – knew that there is no real cease-fire under these conditions.

That is the main thing. Then there came the small provocations which were designed to get Hamas to react. After several months, in which hardly any Qassam rockets were launched, an army unit was sent into the Strip “in order to destroy a tunnel that came close to the border fence”. From a purely military point of view, it would have made more sense to lay an ambush on our side of the fence. But the aim was to find a pretext for the termination of the cease-fire, in a way that made it plausible to put the blame on the Palestinians. And indeed, after several such small actions, in which Hamas fighters were killed, Hamas retaliated with a massive launch of rockets, and – lo and behold – the cease-fire was at an end. Everybody blamed Hamas.

* * *

WHAT WAS THE AIM? Tzipi Livni announced it openly: to liquidate Hamas rule in Gaza. The Qassams served only as a pretext.

Liquidate Hamas rule? That sounds like a chapter out of “The March of Folly”. After all, it is no secret that it was the Israeli government which set up Hamas to start with. When I once asked a former Shin-Bet chief, Yaakov Peri, about it, he answered enigmatically: “We did not create it, but we did not hinder its creation.”

For years, the occupation authorities favored the Islamic movement in the occupied territories. All other political activities were rigorously suppressed, but their activities in the mosques were permitted. The calculation was simple and naive: at the time, the PLO was considered the main enemy, Yasser Arafat was the current Satan. The Islamic movement was preaching against the PLO and Arafat, and was therefore viewed as an ally.

With the outbreak of the first intifada in 1987, the Islamic movement officially renamed itself Hamas (Arabic initials of “Islamic Resistance Movement”) and joined the fight. Even then, the Shin-Bet took no action against them for almost a year, while Fatah members were executed or imprisoned in large numbers. Only after a year, were Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and his colleagues also arrested.

Since then the wheel has turned. Hamas has now become the current Satan, and the PLO is considered by many in Israel almost as a branch of the Zionist organization. The logical conclusion for an Israeli government seeking peace would have been to make wide-ranging concessions to the Fatah leadership: ending of the occupation, signing of a peace treaty, foundation of the State of Palestine, withdrawal to the 1967 borders, a reasonable solution of the refugee problem, release of all Palestinian prisoners. That would have arrested the rise of Hamas for sure.

But logic has little influence on politics. Nothing of this sort happened. On the contrary, after the murder of Arafat, Ariel Sharon declared that Mahmoud Abbas, who took his place, was a “plucked chicken”. Abbas was not allowed the slightest political achievement. The negotiations, under American auspices, became a joke. The most authentic Fatah leader, Marwan Barghouti, was sent to prison for life. Instead of a massive prisoner release, there were petty and insulting “gestures”.

Abbas was systematically humiliated, Fatah looked like an empty shell and Hamas won a resounding victory in the Palestinian election – the most democratic election ever held in the Arab world. Israel boycotted the elected government. In the ensuing internal struggle, Hamas assumed direct control over the Gaza Strip.

And now, after all this, the government of Israel decided to “liquidate Hamas rule in Gaza” – with blood, fire and columns of smoke.

* * *

THE OFFICIAL NAME of the war is “Cast Lead”, two words from a children’s song about a Hanukkah toy.

It would be more accurate to call it “the Election War”.

In the past, too, military action has been taken during election campaigns. Menachem Begin bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor during the 1981 campaign. When Shimon Peres claimed that this was an election gimmick, Begin cried out at his next rally: “Jews, do you believe that I would send our brave boys to their death or, worse, to be taken prisoner by human animals, in order to win an election?” Begin won.

Peres is no Begin. When, during the 1996 election campaign, he ordered the invasion of Lebanon (operation “Grapes of Wrath”), everybody was convinced that he had done it for electoral gain. The war was a failure and Peres lost the elections and Binyamin Netanyahu came to power.

Barak and Tzipi Livni are now resorting to the same old trick. According to the polls, Barak’s predicted election result rose within 48 hours by five Knesset seats. About 80 dead Palestinians for each seat. But it is difficult to walk on a pile of dead bodies. The success may evaporate in a minute if the war comes to be considered by the Israeli public as a failure. For example, if the rockets continue to hit Beersheba, or if the ground attack leads to heavy Israeli casualties.

The timing was chosen meticulously from another angle too. The attack started two days after Christmas, when American and European leaders are on holiday until after New Year. The calculation: even if somebody wanted to try and stop the war, no one would give up his holiday. That ensured several days free from outside pressures.

Another reason for the timing: these are George Bush’s last days in the White House. This blood-soaked moron could be expected to support the war enthusiastically, as indeed he did. Barack Obama has not yet entered office and had a ready made pretext for keeping silent: “there is only one President”. The silence does not bode well for the term of president Obama.

* * *

THE MAIN LINE was: not to repeat the mistakes of Lebanon War II. This was endlessly repeated on all the news programs and talk shows.

This does not change the fact: the Gaza War is an almost exact replica of the second Lebanon war.

The strategic concept is the same: to terrorize the civilian population by unremitting attacks from the air, sowing death and destruction. This poses no danger to the pilots, since the Palestinians have no anti-aircraft weapons at all. The calculation: if the entire life-supporting infrastructure in the Strip is utterly destroyed and total anarchy ensues, the population will rise up and overthrow the Hamas regime. Mahmoud Abbas will then ride back into Gaza on the back of Israeli tanks.

In Lebanon, this calculation did not work out. The bombed population, including the Christians, rallied behind Hizbullah, and Hassan Nasrallah became the hero of the Arab world. Something similar will probably happen this time, too. Generals are experts on using weapons and moving troops, not on mass psychology.

Some time ago I wrote that the Gaza blockade was a scientific experiment designed to find out how much one can starve a population and turn its life into hell before they break. This experiment was conducted with the generous help of Europe and the US. Up to now, it did not succeed. Hamas became stronger and the range of the Qassams became longer. The present war is a continuation of the experiment by other means.

It may be that the army will “have no alternative” but to re-conquer the Gaza Strip because there is no other way to stop the Qassams – except coming to an agreement with Hamas, which is contrary to government policy. When the ground invasion starts, everything will depend on the motivation and capabilities of the Hamas fighters vis-à-vis the Israeli soldiers. Nobody can know what will happen.

* * *

DAY AFTER DAY, night after night, Aljazeera’s Arabic channel broadcasts the atrocious pictures: heaps of mutilated bodies, tearful relatives looking for their dear ones among the dozens of corpses spread out on the ground, a woman pulling her young daughter from under the rubble, doctors without medicines trying to save the lives of the wounded. (The English-language Aljazeera, unlike its Arab-language sister-station, has undergone an amazing about face, broadcasting only a sanitized picture and freely distributing Israeli government propaganda. It would be interesting to know what happened there.)

Millions are seeing these terrible images, picture after picture, day after day. These images are imprinted on their minds forever: horrible Israel, abominable Israel, inhuman Israel. A whole generation of haters. That is a terrible price, which we will be compelled to pay long after the other results of the war itself have been forgotten in Israel.

But there is another thing that is being imprinted on the minds of these millions: the picture of the miserable, corrupt, passive Arab regimes.

As seen by Arabs, one fact stands out above all others: the wall of shame.

For the million and a half Arabs in Gaza, who are suffering so terribly, the only opening to the world that is not dominated by Israel is the border with Egypt. Only from there can food arrive to sustain life and medicaments to save the injured. This border remains closed at the height of the horror. The Egyptian army has blocked the only way for food and medicines to enter, while surgeons operate on the wounded without anesthetics.

Throughout the Arab world, from end to end, there echoed the words of Hassan Nasrallah: The leaders of Egypt are accomplices to the crime, they are collaborating with the “Zionist enemy” in trying to break the Palestinian people. It can be assumed that he did not mean only Mubarak, but also all the other leaders, from the king of Saudi Arabia to the Palestinian President. Seeing the demonstrations throughout the Arab world and listening to the slogans, one gets the impression that their leaders seem to many Arabs pathetic at best, and miserable collaborators at worst.

This will have historic consequences. A whole generation of Arab leaders, a generation imbued with the ideology of secular Arab nationalism, the successors of Gamal Abd-al-Nasser, Hafez al-Assad and Yasser Arafat, may be swept from the stage. In the Arab space, the only viable alternative is the ideology of Islamic fundamentalism.

This war is a writing on the wall: Israel is missing the historic chance of making peace with secular Arab nationalism. Tomorrow, It may be faced with a uniformly fundamentalist Arab world, Hamas multiplied by a thousand.

Uri Avnery is an Israeli writer and peace activist with Gush Shalom. He is a contributor to CounterPunch's book The Politics of Anti-Semitism.

[cutthemdown]

Gaff I think the only way to fix it is to use economic sanctions by America on Israel. We would have to say Syria you get this part of Golan Heights, Israel you get this part of Golan heights, Palestinians you get half of Jerusalem and get to make it your capital, but you only get this many west bank settlements back ( i have no idea how much Israel has taken this in only a rough outline).

Then you tell Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan,Lebanon, Yemen because you invaded in 1948 and caused the Palestinians to lose so much you owe the Palestinians like 150 billion dollars. We use that money to help rebuild schools, hospitals, roads, sewers etc.

The you tell Israel any more encroachments after this and America cuts you off from all aid.

You tell Palestinians, Hezzbollah, Hamas, arab countries, all of them...that we expect no more terrorism against Israel. Anyone who does it will be a UN force bombing the **** out of you and economic sanctions against anyone caught supporting it.

[Spider]

Gaff I think the only way to fix it is to use economic sanctions by America on Israel. We would have to say Syria you get this part of Golan Heights, Israel you get this part of Golan heights, Palestinians you get half of Jerusalem and get to make it your capital, but you only get this many west bank settlements back ( i have no idea how much Israel has taken this in only a rough outline).

Then you tell Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan,Lebanon, Yemen because you invaded in 1948 and caused the Palestinians to lose so much you owe the Palestinians like 150 billion dollars. We use that money to help rebuild schools, hospitals, roads, sewers etc.

The you tell Israel any more encroachments after this and America cuts you off from all aid.

You tell Palestinians, Hezzbollah, Hamas, arab countries, all of them...that we expect no more terrorism against Israel. Anyone who does it will be a UN force bombing the **** out of you and economic sanctions against anyone caught supporting it.
I dont know , cutting off aid to Israel could be a disaster Arabs are good at being poor , jews not so much , i dont see much of away other then a foreign country monitoring the Arab and Israel boarders .........

[cutthemdown]

I dont know , cutting off aid to Israel could be a disaster Arabs are good at being poor , jews not so much , i dont see much of away other then a foreign country monitoring the Arab and Israel boarders .........

That's sort of my point though. If the consequences were being cut off, maybe Israel would make some real concessions for peace. I don't see anything like this occurring, only that I think unless it did things won't change.

[Spider]

That's sort of my point though. If the consequences were being cut off, maybe Israel would make some real concessions for peace. I don't see anything like this occurring, only that I think unless it did things won't change.

you got to make sure both sides want peace , Jews are at a disadvantage as to population .............

[cutthemdown]

The ground war is on. Israel is now moving into Gaza with troops and armor.

[defenseman]

I do not support suicide attacks. I've stated this many times -- but you never listen.

The real issue is state terrorism -- which happens on a vastly bigger scale -- and is the reason for the suicide attacks in the first place -- which are acts of desperation.

The problem is your double standard. You think state terrorism is groovy. You are blind to it. You choose not see it -- because you think whatever we do is OK.

Let us be clear: Dropping bombs on civilians in Gaza is terrorism -- pure and simple. It is not "Israel defending itself."

MHG

You are, what you claim others to be, and a fool to boot. You are welcome to your opinion, as wrong as it is....dman

[Paladin]

GO ISRAEL!!!!!

Tie that yamulke down and go get 'em......

[mhgaffney]

No, the fools are people like Paladin and yourself -- who have no clue about the history -- and are in denial about how perilous the world situation is at the moment.

The Gaza situation can spread to Lebanon very easily -- and if this happens it can also spread quickly to Syria.

The problem is that Syria has a security greement with Iran. So if it spreads to Syria -- Iran will probably come in.

This means a wider war -- involving US forces in Iraq and the US fifth fleet in the Gulf.

Iran now has the top of the line Russian ground to air missiles. This means that any aerial attack on Iran will come at great cost.

How do you stop such a conflict -- once it starts? It can go nuclear very quickly -- and then what?

You knee jerks are living in a dream world. Wake up to reality!

MHG

[mhgaffney]

Check out this must see short video -- an interview with a Norwegian doctor reporting frrom Gaza. You won't see the likes of this on FOX/ABC/NBC/CBS/CNN:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21612.htm

[W*GS]

gaffney's "the nuclear fire is about to get us ALL" mantra is getting old.

This planet shoulda died decades back if he had any sense of reality.

[cutthemdown]

LOL at the notion Syria will do anything but funnel weapons to Hezzbolah.

The Arab countries have learned there lesson when it comes to battling Israel toe to toe. They just can't win. Israeli pilots are 10x what the arab pilots are. They have better jet's to fly and better bombs to drop. There tanks are faster and manned by better commander and crew. They have superior intelligence and the help of the USA satellites and spy planes.

It won't happen Gaff. Even if Israel invaded Lebanon Syria would not attack. They would fight back through Hezzbollah like usual. As far as Iran I don't see them wanting to get tangled up in a real war especially since the Palestinians don't matter to the Persians. Iran didn't even take part in the earlier Israeli/Arab wars.

Having said that let's assume Arabs would attack to help them. They would almost have to have Jordan and Egypt in on it to reach Gaza. Otherwise Syria could go through the West Bank and N Israel but that would be a tough tough road to hoe and would suck the rest of the Palestinians into the violence. I doubt that is palpable to Syrian leadership.

[TheReverend]

Gaff, this no knock on you because I actually enjoy your spirit and hate "thought police" more than anything on the planet.

That being said, I'm curious... are you a holocaust denier?

[cutthemdown]

Here's a picture you won't see on American TV.......Oh wait it's from CNN. Cmon Gaff what gives? I thought Americans were being shielded from dead babies?

[Bronco Bob]

It won't happen Gaff. Even if Israel invaded Lebanon Syria would not attack. They would fight back through Hezzbollah like usual. As far as Iran I don't see them wanting to get tangled up in a real war especially since the Palestinians don't matter to the Persians. Iran didn't even take part in the earlier Israeli/Arab wars.


The main reason Iran didn't participate in the '67 and '73 wars was because
up until the '89 revolution, Iran was controlled by the Shah, which was a US
puppet installed by the CIA.

[cutthemdown]

The main reason Iran didn't participate in the '67 and '73 wars was because
up until the '89 revolution, Iran was controlled by the Shah, which was a US
puppet installed by the CIA.

good point but also the people there don't get near as fired up over the issue in general. Also Iran struggling right now because they can't sell oil at a high enough price. I doubt they would want to lose all the fancy new ships and missiles they have built.

That's what would happen. In the end Iran knows they gain nothing by helping Syria, or the Palestinians. That's why it won't happen.

[mhgaffney]

Gaff, this no knock on you because I actually enjoy your spirit and hate "thought police" more than anything on the planet.

That being said, I'm curious... are you a holocaust denier?

No I am not a denier.

But there are legitimate questions about what did actually happen. Scholars who try to do that research tend to be smeared for it.

I have not myself investigated the Holocaust -- so I can't comment further. I only take srong positions on issues I have personally checked out.

MHG

[mhgaffney]

Gaff I think the only way to fix it is to use economic sanctions by America on Israel. We would have to say Syria you get this part of Golan Heights, Israel you get this part of Golan heights, Palestinians you get half of Jerusalem and get to make it your capital, but you only get this many west bank settlements back ( i have no idea how much Israel has taken this in only a rough outline).

Then you tell Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan,Lebanon, Yemen because you invaded in 1948 and caused the Palestinians to lose so much you owe the Palestinians like 150 billion dollars. We use that money to help rebuild schools, hospitals, roads, sewers etc.

The you tell Israel any more encroachments after this and America cuts you off from all aid.

You tell Palestinians, Hezzbollah, Hamas, arab countries, all of them...that we expect no more terrorism against Israel. Anyone who does it will be a UN force bombing the **** out of you and economic sanctions against anyone caught supporting it.

First, I agree with you about economic sanctions against Israel. Heck -- if the US simply put conditions on the $3-4 billion we give them every year that would do a lot. But the Israel lobby insists on no conditions.

Second, you have some fuzzy ideas about the early history.The Palestinians did not lose out because Egypt and Syria attacked the new Jewish state. The Zionist plan all along was to drive the Palestinians out. Menachem Begin's terrorist group the Irgun staged massacres -- one famus one at Der Yassein -- to scare the Palestinians into fleeing for their lives -- and it worked. Hundreds of thousands fled.

Those who refused to flee were driven out. The reason for the ethnic cleansing was Israel's need to purge the Arab population from the new Jewish state -- to overcome the so called demographic proble -- and to make land and homes available for Jews.

More than 400 depopulated Paletsinian villages were bulldozed after the 48 war.

S Arabia, Jordan, Yemen and Lebanon did not even participate in the 48 war.

As for Golan -- most Israelis are now prepared to give it back to Syria. From the Syrian standpoint it is a non negotiable demand. Nor is the Golan needed any longer for security. It once was so -- but no longer. Missiles on both sides have reduced the importance of Golan.

As for the W Bank, the UN Resolution 242 stipulates that Israel must withdraw to the 1967 bounderies -- the so called Green Line. Any changes in the line must be evenly balanced.

MHG

[mhgaffney]

good point but also the people there don't get near as fired up over the issue in general. Also Iran struggling right now because they can't sell oil at a high enough price. I doubt they would want to lose all the fancy new ships and missiles they have built.

That's what would happen. In the end Iran knows they gain nothing by helping Syria, or the Palestinians. That's why it won't happen.

Cut,

You are making a big mistake. Right now the whole region is a tinder box. The hatred of the US was already intense in the 1990s. The psychopath Bush ratcheted it up to a whole new level.

In fact, there was almost a rupture in US - Saudi relations in 2002 - when the crown prince Abdullah visited Crawford. Colin Powell called it the "near death experience." If the rupture had happened S Arabia would have cut off the US from its oil. This still can happen.

Things are sooo much worse today than in 2002. The Muslim world is seething -- and anything is possible.

The problem is that if fighting erupts on Israel's northern border with Lebanon it can easiy spread to Syria. All too easily -- and this means Iran will come in.

Both Syria and Iran have large and advanced biological weapons programs -- and these would be used in a war. So the potential for a cataclysm is real. If these weapons are used -- all bets are off. Israel would almost certainly use its nukes. Once this line is crossed -- how do you uncross it?

There is no way back at that point. It would almost certainly escalate from there.

Today --as a result of all of this -- and because of what is happening in Gaza -- the current Arab leaders are scared to death. If the Arab masses rise up -- and their anger may well first fall on their own leaders -- there will be no stopping them. Egypt, Jordan, S Arabia and Yemen could all end up with new and much more radical Islamic governments.

[W*GS]

No I am not a denier.

But there are legitimate questions about what did actually happen. Scholars who try to do that research tend to be smeared for it.

I have not myself investigated the Holocaust -- so I can't comment further. I only take srong positions on issues I have personally checked out.

You're a denier.

And you wonder why I call you anti-Jew and a Nazi. You're scum, gaffney.

[cutthemdown]

Well Gaff I really don't see this thing erupting like you do. Obviously if Syria used biological weapons Isreal would vaporize whole cities. Same with Iran. IMO they realize that so they would never do it. Same reason Israel would not use nukes first because they know that would unleash the worst weapons on them.

The most I see Iran doing is sending some really good bombs like the sent to Iraq. Maybe some shoulder fired missiles to take out helicopters, training fighters etc etc.

You are right though I'm no expert but I thought Saudi Arabia helped with money and arms for the 48 war, but maybe I am mixing in facts from the 6 day war which was later? in what 67? That is possible I have no doubt I haven't your knowledge on dates and facts. I just disagree with some of your conclusions.

Wasn't there and Arab Liberation army that the countries I mentioned used to get there fighters to the battlefield. I believe it was like 10 thousand strong and commanded through Jordan? I'm fuzzy though it's been a long time since I was in school and read about this stuff.

[cutthemdown]

IMO in 3-4 weeks Israel will be done and then the world will have to help the Palestinians rebuild again. The place looks like friggin Stalingrad circa 1940's.

I really am at that point where if Israel solves nothing by this then it will be obvious they don't want peace. At that point I think America needs to think about putting some conditions on the 3-4 billion we give them.

[TheReverend]

IMO in 3-4 weeks Israel will be done and then the world will have to help the Palestinians rebuild again. The place looks like friggin Stalingrad circa 1940's.

I really am at that point where if Israel solves nothing by this then it will be obvious they don't want peace. At that point I think America needs to think about putting some conditions on the 3-4 billion we give them.

It sucks to see people hurt. Especially children. But the Israelis have their own people to protect.

Maybe they get their point across and somehow some greater good can be achieved?

Naturally, this is optimistically ignorant... but it WOULD be nice. Otherwise the UN needs to step up education aide in these **** holes and get them off their respective biblical bandwagons.

[Paladin]

Palestinians are always pleading victim hood. They lose every fricking time they start something, and claim they were"defending" themselves and the "people". Frankly, Hamas is only good to the Palestinians if they are perceived as defending the "people" from something. So they continue to provoke Israel to do something which keeps the cycle going A number of the Arab leaders have abandoned Hamas because they have done little to actually help the "people" and are continually using money and such for more weapons. A numbe of roosals have bn ut out that the "Plistinans ave rejected ecause it woul have meant the end of such groups as Hamas.

Their leaders deserve to be "inconvienced".

Permenatently.

Gaff, stick in your craw......

[alkemical]

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[Spider]

Man o man , some of the posting here ........... after the Holocaust and WW2 , was it a good Idea to put all the Jews in one place again ?
alot of countrys had an opportunity to help the Jews , Take Switzerland for example ,Swiss bankers they ripped off Jewish customers , Swiss also allowed Jews on their way to the holocaust to be transported through their country ......

[Hotrod]

No I am not a denier.

But there are legitimate questions about what did actually happen. Scholars who try to do that research tend to be smeared for it.

I have not myself investigated the Holocaust -- so I can't comment further. I only take srong positions on issues I have personally checked out.

MHG


Seriously you are a douchbag :nono:

[mhgaffney]

Here is an accurate set of maps -- showing the incremental shrinking of Arab Palestine. The green zones in the 2000 map at the right are what Israel offered during the Oslo peace process in the 1990s. This was Israeli PM Barak's "generous offer."

The Palestinian state would have amounted to isolated enclaves -- all surrounded by Israeli highways, checkpoints and barbed wire. As you can see --- it simply was not viable.

Seriously, no leader worth his salt could ever accept such an offer. The fact this was paraded before a largely uninformed American audience as a fair and just proposal -- shows the mendacity of the pro Zionist media here in the US.

UN SC resolution 242 would require Isarel to return to the 1967 lines - in the third frame -- still a vastly shrunken Arab Palestine.

In 1947 the UN awarded Israel more than 50% of the land -- even though Jews were a minority. At that time no one bothered to consult the Palestinians.

By 1949 -- after the 48 war -- the Zionists had pushed he lines back even further.

These maps give you insight into the problem -- which is why the maps almost never appear in the US media.
MHG

[W*GS]

'Course, we all know that gaffney would prefer the area be entirely green, and the Jews gone. By whatever means necessary...

[Spider]

'Course, we all know that gaffney would prefer the area be entirely green, and the Jews gone. By whatever means necessary...

And the flip side like the Native Americans .......... tough sh!t hey .......... Religion is what is keeping these 2 people apart ..........

[alkemical]

And the flip side like the Native Americans .......... tough sh!t hey .......... Religion is what is keeping these 2 people apart ..........

What's funny - is that when the 3 major religions were open, and vibrant to the others - the world had some of it's best science, ideas, art, etc.

But instead, people bought into the death-cult ideas of religion and caught up in the perpetual state of war.

[Spider]

What's funny - is that when the 3 major religions were open, and vibrant to the others - the world had some of it's best science, ideas, art, etc.

But instead, people bought into the death-cult ideas of religion and caught up in the perpetual state of war.

shut the hell up . my God would kick the living sh!t out of your god ........ ;D

[gyldenlove]

We need to build a huge wall around the entire middle east and throw in a huge supply of short range weapons and ammo and let them duke it out without bothering the rest of us. Like a WWE cage match without the crooked ref, fake injuries and fixed fights. Whoever is still standing at the end gets the whole shabang and we get some peace.

[epicSocialism4tw]

IMO in 3-4 weeks Israel will be done and then the world will have to help the Palestinians rebuild again. The place looks like friggin Stalingrad circa 1940's.

I really am at that point where if Israel solves nothing by this then it will be obvious they don't want peace. At that point I think America needs to think about putting some conditions on the 3-4 billion we give them.

Here's the problem...

Neither of these cultures will ever want to give an inch, because they are both committed to the same assets (Jerusalem, etc).

They are both committed in the same way, being willing to die for those assets.

When people are that devoted to their assets, peace plans are trite and meaningless to them because they solve nothing.

These folks will war over it for generations. Its time that we get out of it all together and let them decide by their own means. By natural competition.

[alkemical]

shut the hell up . my God would kick the living sh!t out of your god ........ ;D

You only have one? ;)

[Spider]

Here's the problem...

Neither of these cultures will ever want to give an inch, because they are both committed to the same assets (Jerusalem, etc).

They are both committed in the same way, being willing to die for those assets.

When people are that devoted to their assets, peace plans are trite and meaningless to them because they solve nothing.

These folks will war over it for generations. Its time that we get out of it all together and let them decide by their own means. By natural competition. that yard stick done been past with all of the money and war equipment we gave the Jews .......... Kinda like arming a guy with a knife and another with a M16 and saying may the better man win

[Spider]

You only have one? ;)

LOL yeah but I am taking applications ........

[Meck77]

'Course, we all know that gaffney would prefer the area be entirely green, and the Jews gone. By whatever means necessary...

Wigs answer me this. Why is it that the jews always find themselves in disputes? There seems to be a couple thousand year history going here.

[gyldenlove]

Wigs answer me this. Why is it that the jews always find themselves in disputes? There seems to be a couple thousand year history going here.

How is that different from any other expansionist religion? the Muslims have been at war since the day of Muhammad who was a celebrated warrior. The Christians started life by being crucified or fed to lions, then went on to fight the turks and Maurers, then the fight against the pagans from the North, another fight with the turks, then the whole colonization campaign and the ethnic cleansing of natives who would not convert, to the inter-christian wars after the reformation, to the crusades, not to forget both world wars who were started by god-fearing christians.

As soon as you have a group of people who have weapons and think the world would be better off if everybody either agreed or died you will have religious wars going on.

[alkemical]

LOL yeah but I am taking applications ........

You can worship me.... I don't have too many demands.

[barryr]

Wigs answer me this. Why is it that the jews always find themselves in disputes? There seems to be a couple thousand year history going here.


It's more like the Muslims that find themselves with disputes with every religion and if all else fails, fights with themselves.

Why do people really think it's Israel that looks to provoke fights when they are surrounded by Muslim countries and where most would love to nuke them? This makes sense to people. Apparently Israel is supposed to accept terrorists lobbing bombs at them.

[epicSocialism4tw]

How is that different from any other expansionist religion? the Muslims have been at war since the day of Muhammad who was a celebrated warrior. The Christians started life by being crucified or fed to lions, then went on to fight the turks and Maurers, then the fight against the pagans from the North, another fight with the turks, then the whole colonization campaign and the ethnic cleansing of natives who would not convert, to the inter-christian wars after the reformation, to the crusades, not to forget both world wars who were started by god-fearing christians.

As soon as you have a group of people who have weapons and think the world would be better off if everybody either agreed or died you will have religious wars going on.

Its silly to limit the scope of war to religious dispute alone.

[Paladin]

Here's the problem...

Neither of these cultures will ever want to give an inch, because they are both committed to the same assets (Jerusalem, etc).

They are both committed in the same way, being willing to die for those assets.

When people are that devoted to their assets, peace plans are trite and meaningless to them because they solve nothing.

These folks will war over it for generations. Its time that we get out of it all together and let them decide by their own means. By natural competition.

So. You're saying that they are just trying to cover their assets?


Sounds like a few people around here. We keep trying to get Spider to cover his assets. Some assets just don't like to be covered. We have seen a boob thread that uncovered many assets. Those should not be covered, IMHO.

I am devoted to a lot of assets like those booby assets, but I would not die for them. Suffer and whimper, maybe, but not die. Some assets just have to be free, ya know? But I agree that those boys and girls need to just get it all out of their systems and just clean out each other's assets.

My money is on the Jews.......

[gyldenlove]

So. You're saying that they are just trying to cover their assets?


Sounds like a few people around here. We keep trying to get Spider to cover his assets. Some assets just don't like to be covered. We have seen a boob thread that uncovered many assets. Those should not be covered, IMHO.

I am devoted to a lot of assets like those booby assets, but I would not die for them. Suffer and whimper, maybe, but not die. Some assets just have to be free, ya know? But I agree that those boys and girls need to just get it all out of their systems and just clean out each other's assets.

My money is on the Jews.......


A-****ing-MEN

[Meck77]

It's more like the Muslims that find themselves with disputes with every religion and if all else fails, fights with themselves.

Why do people really think it's Israel that looks to provoke fights when they are surrounded by Muslim countries and where most would love to nuke them? This makes sense to people. Apparently Israel is supposed to accept terrorists lobbing bombs at them.

Personally I could care less for either group as they are both dragging down the American way of life IMO. Our defense of Israel threatens our way of life here and I just don't see them worth dieing for IMO.

I doubt anyone from Israel gives a rats ass about us Americans but they sure love taking our tax dollars. Do you think the Israeli army would lay down their blood for Americans? No freaking way. Why should our guys do the same for them?

If we could just get out of the region I'd be ok with the entire region getting into a massive conflict. They all are living a self fulfilling prophecy as it is so they just need to get it on. I'd imagine a few nukes in the area would do the trick.

[barryr]

Israel could bomb the crap out of that area if they wanted to and didn't care about trying to limit the cost of lives. However, the Muslim terrorists do not have such a care and to me, that makes a difference.

I'm all for the U.S. getting our energy from someplace else or having our own and letting the M.E. rot, but the democrats wants us dependent on them for oil as the republicans are said to.

[Spider]

Israel could bomb the crap out of that area if they wanted to and didn't care about trying to limit the cost of lives. However, the Muslim terrorists do not have such a care and to me, that makes a difference.

I'm all for the U.S. getting our energy from someplace else or having our own and letting the M.E. rot, but the democrats wants us dependent on them for oil as the republicans are said to.

your Daddy ruined a prefect prick when he put ears on your head ........... of all the stupid assed thing I have read here , and believe me these has been some stupid ass takes , you and Stugots II take the mother ****ing cake ....... Someone has beat the living **** our of you with a stupid stick

[Paladin]

your Daddy ruined a prefect prick when he put ears on your head ........... of all the stupid assed thing I have read here , and believe me these has been some stupid ass takes , you and Stugots II take the mother ****ing cake ....... Someone has beat the living **** our of you with a stupid stick

X's 25

[Spider]

X's 25

;D i agree ............ I think

[barryr]

your Daddy ruined a prefect prick when he put ears on your head ........... of all the stupid assed thing I have read here , and believe me these has been some stupid ass takes , you and Stugots II take the mother ****ing cake ....... Someone has beat the living **** our of you with a stupid stick

You are the biggest idiot around and the problem is you believe you have so much knowledge, yet I see little evidence of it on any subject matter. There is nothing inaccurate what I just posted, but for a Jew hating POS, I can see the problem. You and mcgoof are terrorist supporters and racist MF's. You will get yours in the end, you hating fu----. Stick your opinions up your a-- you hateful fu--! You are dead to me since I don't associate with racist and supporters of muslim terrorists.

[barryr]

X's 25


Screw you too buddy. Another racist, jew hater I'm sure.

[Spider]

You are the biggest idiot around and the problem is you believe you have so much knowledge, yet I see little evidence of it on any subject matter. There is nothing inaccurate what I just posted, but for a Jew hating POS, I can see the problem. You and mcgoof are terrorist supporters and racist MF's. You will get yours in the end, you hating fu----. Stick your opinions up your a-- you hateful fu--! You are dead to me since I don't associate with racist and supporters of muslim terrorists.

I know that the Dems dont want us on Foreign or domestic oil you twit , the Dems would rather have a green source of fuel ....... you moron .........

[Spider]

Screw you too buddy. Another racist, jew hater I'm sure.

Denial .......... Dude , you are in deep denial of your own stupidity

[Hotrod]

You are the biggest idiot around and the problem is you believe you have so much knowledge, yet I see little evidence of it on any subject matter. There is nothing inaccurate what I just posted, but for a Jew hating POS, I can see the problem. You and mcgoof are terrorist supporters and racist MF's. You will get yours in the end, you hating fu----. Stick your opinions up your a-- you hateful fu--! You are dead to me since I don't associate with racist and supporters of muslim terrorists.

LOL Geez settle down Nancy you'll be ok

[Garcia Bronco]

I know that the Dems dont want us on Foreign or domestic oil you twit , the Dems would rather have a green source of fuel ....... you moron .........

That's not entirely true either. You'll find there are Democrats with heavy oil interests.

[mhgaffney]

Sorry to shatter your collective bubble - - but you are wrong. This dispute is NOT about religion. At least not primarily.

It is about land -- real estate.

Jews and Mulsims can live in peace together. They have done it before. The Arab world was a refuge for Jewish refugees from Christian persecution for more than 1200 years.

Until modern times -- the center of world Judaism was Iraq. So you are making a bull**** argument.

Yoose guys need to bone up on your history.

No -- as I have stated -- the biggest obstacle to a peace settlement is the US veto in the UN Security Council. This is the only reason the international community did not long ago intervene to end the bloodshed.

The US is the problem.

MHG

[NUB]

Sorry to shatter your collective bubble - - but you are wrong. This dispute is NOT about religion. At least not primarily.

It is about land -- real estate.

Jews and Mulsims can live in peace together. They have done it before. The Arab world was a refuge for Jewish refugees from Christian persecution for more than 1200 years.

Until modern times -- the center of world Judaism was Iraq. So you are making a bull**** argument.

Yoose guys need to bone up on your history.

No -- as I have stated -- the biggest obstacle to a peace settlement is the US veto in the UN Security Council. This is the only reason the international community did not long ago intervene to end the bloodshed.

The US is the problem.

MHG


Baghdad, to be exact. And that was into the 20th century, mind you.

The powerful anti-semitic movement by Arabs came about the same time as Arab nationalism began picking up as kings and princes and emirates began carving up the area at their own leisure, after the West having done so, of course... Also at the same time: the formation of Israel. Had "Israel" been put in Uganda or Argentina as some had actually suggested, I do not doubt whatsoever that those areas would be at ends with the Jews there as well. People don't like their land being taken, it's very simple. And one of the biggest issues here, one that goes on pretty much entirely unreported although it is the most important facet by far, is the constant theft of Palestinian land -- in the face of both Israeli and international law. Hundreds of settlements are in Palestinian land. Hundreds. Illegally.

The argument that Israelis should own the land because they won it is absurd. They didn't win it from the Palestinians, they won it from the Syrians, Egyptians, Jordanians, etc. who, if you had never noticed, had never acted with Palestine in mind having controlled Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights for 19-years without once making a motion towards forming a Palestinian state.

As for the current conflict. Both sides are at fault here. You can't blame Palestinians for being angry pretty much 24/7 when Israelis are stealing their land 24/7. At the same time you'd be pretty angry too if some guys kept putting rockets in your backyard. Then at the same time both sides are pretty angry that the other reneged or never owned up to pretty much every "deal" they've struck out.

However, for Israel, going in with their military arm is truly the worst idea ever. It is so blatantly stupid that one really does have to be suspicious that there are ulterior motives at play here. First, bombing people with aircraft is a horrendous reaction to terrorism and, by pretty much every single study of the subject, will only fuel it. Second, this really does legitimize Hamas to the Palestinians. If Hamas's argument is that Israel is a bully, well, they've just won that debate. Third, it isn't very clear what exactly Israel is trying to accomplish. On one hand they say this wont be an occupation, but on the other they're just knocking out rocket sites. Well, it doesn't take a genius to know that rocket sites are not only mobile, but as soon as Israel leaves they'll be back online in little time.

The British have faced Hamas-like terrorism a few times. Two examples: the PRA in Ireland whom they never went after with Harriers... and the Irgun in what is now Israel. Yes, Jews have also employed terrorism and the tactics employed by the Irgun were not at all different from what we see in modern terror groups. What was their agenda? An independent Jewish state, with a great deal of the terror strikes being against the British. Just some history to spice up current affairs.

[W*GS]

The US is the problem.

And here we have gaffney's tunnel vision on display. It's not that the US is the problem, really - it's that the Jews control the US.

gaffney, you got no cred whatsoever.

[gyldenlove]

Baghdad, to be exact. And that was into the 20th century, mind you.

The powerful anti-semitic movement by Arabs came about the same time as Arab nationalism began picking up as kings and princes and emirates began carving up the area at their own leisure, after the West having done so, of course... Also at the same time: the formation of Israel. Had "Israel" been put in Uganda or Argentina as some had actually suggested, I do not doubt whatsoever that those areas would be at ends with the Jews there as well. People don't like their land being taken, it's very simple. And one of the biggest issues here, one that goes on pretty much entirely unreported although it is the most important facet by far, is the constant theft of Palestinian land -- in the face of both Israeli and international law. Hundreds of settlements are in Palestinian land. Hundreds. Illegally.

The argument that Israelis should own the land because they won it is absurd. They didn't win it from the Palestinians, they won it from the Syrians, Egyptians, Jordanians, etc. who, if you had never noticed, had never acted with Palestine in mind having controlled Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights for 19-years without once making a motion towards forming a Palestinian state.

As for the current conflict. Both sides are at fault here. You can't blame Palestinians for being angry pretty much 24/7 when Israelis are stealing their land 24/7. At the same time you'd be pretty angry too if some guys kept putting rockets in your backyard. Then at the same time both sides are pretty angry that the other reneged or never owned up to pretty much every "deal" they've struck out.

However, for Israel, going in with their military arm is truly the worst idea ever. It is so blatantly stupid that one really does have to be suspicious that there are ulterior motives at play here. First, bombing people with aircraft is a horrendous reaction to terrorism and, by pretty much every single study of the subject, will only fuel it. Second, this really does legitimize Hamas to the Palestinians. If Hamas's argument is that Israel is a bully, well, they've just won that debate. Third, it isn't very clear what exactly Israel is trying to accomplish. On one hand they say this wont be an occupation, but on the other they're just knocking out rocket sites. Well, it doesn't take a genius to know that rocket sites are not only mobile, but as soon as Israel leaves they'll be back online in little time.

The British have faced Hamas-like terrorism a few times. Two examples: the PRA in Ireland whom they never went after with Harriers... and the Irgun in what is now Israel. Yes, Jews have also employed terrorism and the tactics employed by the Irgun were not at all different from what we see in modern terror groups. What was their agenda? An independent Jewish state, with a great deal of the terror strikes being against the British. Just some history to spice up current affairs.

Hey, this invasion is no more stupid that invading Iraq. When you fight someone who has nothing to lose, you can't win. That is why the Iraq invasion didn't work and that is why this Gaza invasion won't work.

If you want the local population to help you, if you want them to stand up for themselves against YOUR enemies, you have to make sure they have more than dung to eat. Right now people in Gaza have nothing, so no matter what they do, they know they can't lose anything, that means that when some extremist yahoo breaks down the door and hides some rocket launchers in the house, people are not going to turn in that yahoo. If Israel instead of dropping bombs, dropped satchels of mashed potato, instant rice, pasta, gravy and other dropable food, you could turn the civilian palestinians against the extremists.

That is how they finaly settled the dispute in Northern Ireland, they gave the catholics power and let them have their political party. Suddenly the catholics had something to lose so they had to start acting accordingly.

[NUB]

Hey, this invasion is no more stupid that invading Iraq. When you fight someone who has nothing to lose, you can't win. That is why the Iraq invasion didn't work and that is why this Gaza invasion won't work.

If you want the local population to help you, if you want them to stand up for themselves against YOUR enemies, you have to make sure they have more than dung to eat. Right now people in Gaza have nothing, so no matter what they do, they know they can't lose anything, that means that when some extremist yahoo breaks down the door and hides some rocket launchers in the house, people are not going to turn in that yahoo. If Israel instead of dropping bombs, dropped satchels of mashed potato, instant rice, pasta, gravy and other dropable food, you could turn the civilian palestinians against the extremists.

That is how they finaly settled the dispute in Northern Ireland, they gave the catholics power and let them have their political party. Suddenly the catholics had something to lose so they had to start acting accordingly.

Just in case there was some misinterpretation, I said "Baghdad" as the early-20th century Jewish center, not as a point of the U.S. invasion.

Great points, though. I will add that the model of getting the locals to work for you is the most successful one. A combination of spec ops and intelligence working in tandem with the population is pretty much universally successful. Why then Israel chose the path they did is beyond me and is also the very reason I'm a little suspicious of ulterior motives because it is inherently antithetical to their own objectives. (Political motives, that is, the kind I expect to see with Iran come before/after Israel's elections.)

[mhgaffney]

Gyldenlove,

In N Ireland the violence ended after the Brits swallowed their pride and began to negotiate with the IRA.

Israel refuses to do this with Hamas -- even though it could have ended the Qassam attacks simply by accepting the need to negotiate.

In fact, after the 2006 election Israel immediately began arresting, imprisoning and murdering the Hamas officials.
MHG

[mhgaffney]

There have been reports that Israel is using depleted uranium weapons and today also reports that Israel is using white phosphorus.

These are horrible weapons -- under any circumstances -- and especially against civilian populations

At Falluja in Iraq the US used white phosphorus to flush the insurgents from hiding -- then took them out with explosive rounds. The combination is said to be lethal to all living things. Including women and children.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cloughley01052009.html

[Spider]

That's not entirely true either. You'll find there are Democrats with heavy oil interests.

oh Brother . it is a hellva lot closer then what Dip **** posted ......... good grief I know every dem doesnt walk in lock step ....... but my statement is hellva lot closer to the truth ......

[Spider]

LOL Geez settle down Nancy you'll be ok

LOL , that was a classic melt down .....

[cutthemdown]

There have been reports that Israel is using depleted uranium weapons and today also reports that Israel is using white phosphorus.

These are horrible weapons -- under any circumstances -- and especially against civilian populations

At Falluja in Iraq the US used white phosphorus to flush the insurgents from hiding -- then took them out with explosive rounds. The combination is said to be lethal to all living things. Including women and children.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cloughley01052009.html


Have they used cluster bombs? that was the big issue before.

Also I asked you earlier and you didn't reply, prob just so many posts you missed it. You said Saudi Arabia didn't participate in the first Arab.Israeli war. But isn't it true the sent about 3000-5000 fighters into the Arab Liberation force that was a 10 thousand strong army? Also I read they gave weapons and supplies the that force as well.

[cutthemdown]

Well Gaff the enemy could just surrender instead of making the other side flush them out. Either come out and fight, lay down weapons, or get flushed out by some hideous weapon. That's pretty much how it works.

Hamas has a tactic of blending in with the civilians. They teach that. They also won't come out to fight instead choosing to do guerilla type tactics. That is probably a good strategy to hold and not be destroyed by a superior force, but it sure does leave the civilians in harms way.

I'm sure burning hot metal is a huge bummer. I'd suggest to all Hamas they lay down weapons and try to play the Martyrs more. Be pathetic and try to change American perception which will then put pressure on our govt to force a land for peace deal.

Hamas can never win this way. They are dooming there people to this existence.

[cutthemdown]

Israel shoulders a lot of the blame but in the end crappy rockets that kill maybe 5-10 Israelis a yr is much easier to take then what Palestinians go through. It's so one sided a pacifist approach may be a better solution for them.

[mhgaffney]

The London Times has now confirmed that Israel is using white phosphorus weapons -- pretty hard to justify under any circumstances in Gaza -- one of the most densely populated areas on the planet.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

Check out this amazing photo. These are frightful weapons. If hit -- even a tiny amount will burn deep into your body.

[mhgaffney]

Cut,

Israel's strategy for 18 months has been to starve the Palestinians into submission. So far it has not worked. The Palestinians continue to resist. I expect this to continue -- but who can say? Does the human spirit break at some point?

Some things are worse than death -- slavery being one of them.

As for the 48 war, yes probably S Arabia did provide some support to the Arabs fighting Israel. I'd have to go back and refresh my memory. I know that Iraq also provided some troops which I believe arrived through Syria.

Jordan stayed out of the 48 war, however. This was due to a secret deal David ben Gurion arranged with King Abdullah of Jordan. Ben Gurion knew that for Jews to win he had to limit the war to two fronts -- Syria in the N and Egypt in the S. Abdullah agreed to stay out -- and in return Israel ceded him the W Bank. It is of ionterest that some of the best Egyptian army units never fought Jews -- but were deployed in the W Bank.

Later when the secret deal became known -- Abdullah was assassinated.

The Palestinians fought too, of course. But their strength had been severely weakened during the 30s when the large scale Palestinian revolt occurred. It was savagely put down by the Brits. By the 40s most of the Pal leaders were dead, in prison or in exile. So they were much weakened in 1948.

British intelligence predicted as early as WW II that the Zionists would win a war against the Arabs.

[mhgaffney]

You think Hamas can never win. But these atrocities in Gaza are a PR nightmare for the US.

Nor will Israel regain respect for its army by attacking civilians. Indeed -- it shows weakness -- not strength.

To be sure Israelk does not care about world opinion -- so longa s they control the US government and media. Which they do at the moment.

However, everything changes. As the US economy/dollar goes down -- the US will no longer be able to provide the same levels of support.

My own opinion is that Israel is insuring its own destruction. The Zionists have squandered the chances for a peace deal/.

What happens if the Saudis (and Venezuela) refuse to sell oil to the US -- in retaliation? You can't invade and bomb everyone.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Gaffney,

Who on earth do you think you are propagandizing here? You have already posted and lauded the authenticity of BLATANTLY DOCTORED PHOTOGRAPHS from this conflict and others.

You are dishonest, and your propaganda stinks of pro-terrorist garbage.

Really...who do you think that you are influencing here?

[cutthemdown]

Cut,

Israel's strategy for 18 months has been to starve the Palestinians into submission. So far it has not worked. The Palestinians continue to resist. I expect this to continue -- but who can say? Does the human spirit break at some point?

Some things are worse than death -- slavery being one of them.

As for the 48 war, yes probably S Arabia did provide some support to the Arabs fighting Israel. I'd have to go back and refresh my memory. I know that Iraq also provided some troops which I believe arrived through Syria.

Jordan stayed out of the 48 war, however. This was due to a secret deal David ben Gurion arranged with King Abdullah of Jordan. Ben Gurion knew that for Jews to win he had to limit the war to two fronts -- Syria in the N and Egypt in the S. Abdullah agreed to stay out -- and in return Israel ceded him the W Bank. It is of ionterest that some of the best Egyptian army units never fought Jews -- but were deployed in the W Bank.

Later when the secret deal became known -- Abdullah was assassinated.

The Palestinians fought too, of course. But their strength had been severely weakened during the 30s when the large scale Palestinian revolt occurred. It was savagely put down by the Brits. By the 40s most of the Pal leaders were dead, in prison or in exile. So they were much weakened in 1948.

British intelligence predicted as early as WW II that the Zionists would win a war against the Arabs.

Jordan did not stay out of the 48 war. They had force called the transjordan army which actually had British commanders. To even suggest Abdullah and Jordan played no role is crazy.

[alkemical]

Hey, this invasion is no more stupid that invading Iraq. When you fight someone who has nothing to lose, you can't win. That is why the Iraq invasion didn't work and that is why this Gaza invasion won't work.

If you want the local population to help you, if you want them to stand up for themselves against YOUR enemies, you have to make sure they have more than dung to eat. Right now people in Gaza have nothing, so no matter what they do, they know they can't lose anything, that means that when some extremist yahoo breaks down the door and hides some rocket launchers in the house, people are not going to turn in that yahoo. If Israel instead of dropping bombs, dropped satchels of mashed potato, instant rice, pasta, gravy and other dropable food, you could turn the civilian palestinians against the extremists.

That is how they finaly settled the dispute in Northern Ireland, they gave the catholics power and let them have their political party. Suddenly the catholics had something to lose so they had to start acting accordingly.



IMO - this is exactly it. You have to change the rules of engagement - it make take some time from giving food, and other humanitarian efforts - but the long term payoff would be obscene.

But no, stupid monkeys...at least those who want this cycle to continue - manipulate these people to keep going.

[Garcia Bronco]

People where ever they are, always have somethig to lose. It's just a matter of finding out what it is. If you wish to hurt your enemy you take from them. Their children, their education, their food, their woman, their life, their God. It's a cold business. One where you have to be committed to the destruction of your enemy. If I were Isreal, and they attacked me? I would wipe them out, all of them.

[alkemical]

People where ever they are, always have somethig to lose. It's just a matter of finding out what it is. If you wish to hurt your enemy you take from them. Their children, their education, their food, their woman, their life, their God. It's a cold business. One where you have to be committed to the destruction of your enemy. If I were Isreal, and they attacked me? I would wipe them out, all of them.

The same is true for the Pal's. Isreal is not innocent. that's my stance and my claim. I get annoyed with how we support them in actions, that we'd criticize others for. It's this hypocrisy that gets people a bit angry at our policies.

[alkemical]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaphone_desktop_tool

The software

The Megaphone Desktop Tool gives the user the option of going to a particular site with a poll, and if the user chooses to go to the site, the software then casts a vote automatically, when this is technically feasible. The vote is chosen by the distributors of Megaphone.

Giyus tries to save you the time and effort of locating the voting form inside the website, a seemingly simple task that may prove quite confusing at certain sites. Whenever we technically can we direct you straight to the voting action. If you have arrived at the poll results, it means that you were directed straight to the voting action and have already successfully voted. If for some reason you don't care to vote, you can always use the "No Thanks" link in the article alert popup. [1]

The software license provides for remote updates: "You understand and agree that Giyus.Org may provide updates, patches and/or new versions of the Software from time to time, including automatic updates that will be installed on your computer, with notice to You, as needed to continue to use the Services, and You hereby authorize such installations." [2]

[mhgaffney]

Jordan did not stay out of the 48 war. They had force called the transjordan army which actually had British commanders. To even suggest Abdullah and Jordan played no role is crazy.

Sorry, you are confusing the 48 and 67 wars.

Jordan stayed out of the 48 war. The British trained Arab Legion did enter the 6 day war in 67 -- and was defeated by the Israelis. This was when Israel siezed the West Bank, which from 48 to 67 had been administered by Jordan.

The story of ben Gurion's secret deal with Jordan's King Abdallah is well documented in Avi Shlaim's 1988 book COLLUSION ACROSS THE JORDAN. Shlaim is one of Israel's best historians. Check it out.

[Hotrod]

All wars suck. Personally I'm a firm believer that you avoid war as much as possible but once you make the decission to attack you do so 100% with everything you have.

Hamas has brought this on the very people who elected them. That Gaff is a fact. Oh I know you'll tell us how the evil Jews were forcing the Pals hands but thats flat out bull****. If they dont want to get the **** kicked out of them with "horrible" weapons then maybe they should stop lobbing missles at the Jews population centers...........**** them they are getting what they voted for period.

[alkemical]

All wars suck. Personally I'm a firm believer that you avoid war as much as possible but once you make the decission to attack you do so 100% with everything you have.

Hamas has brought this on the very people who elected them. That Gaff is a fact. Oh I know you'll tell us how the evil Jews were forcing the Pals hands but thats flat out bull****. If they dont want to get the **** kicked out of them with "horrible" weapons then maybe they should stop lobbing missles at the Jews population centers...........**** them they are getting what they voted for period.

and why are they lobbing rockets at israel?

This is what i mean - you can't ask one side to stop when the other won't. It also wouldn't surprise me that if some "extremists" attacks their own people and country to lay blame on the other, just to have an excuse to fight.

[Rohirrim]

From what I understand listening to NPR, Hamas has been firing rockets at the Israelis from Gaza for years and now Israel has moved in to stop them and the Hamas spokesman says Israel will never stop them from firing rockets. And these are the people the Palestinians elected to lead them?

[Hotrod]

and why are they lobbing rockets at israel?

This is what i mean - you can't ask one side to stop when the other won't. It also wouldn't surprise me that if some "extremists" attacks their own people and country to lay blame on the other, just to have an excuse to fight.

Because they shut down crossing to stop the flow of suicide bombers.

[alkemical]

Because they shut down crossing to stop the flow of suicide bombers.

Maybe they are pissed off from being starved, and bombed themselves.

You see what i'm getting at... There is no-one who is not @ fault.

[cutthemdown]

Sorry, you are confusing the 48 and 67 wars.

Jordan stayed out of the 48 war. The British trained Arab Legion did enter the 6 day war in 67 -- and was defeated by the Israelis. This was when Israel siezed the West Bank, which from 48 to 67 had been administered by Jordan.

The story of ben Gurion's secret deal with Jordan's King Abdallah is well documented in Avi Shlaim's 1988 book COLLUSION ACROSS THE JORDAN. Shlaim is one of Israel's best historians. Check it out.

Wow I checked on the net and every timeline of the 48 war says same thing. Transjordan, later became Jordan, was a major player in the 48 war.

This one lifted on info.com. Wikipedia said same thing.


The 1948–49 War

Although Israel's independence on May 14, 1948, triggered the first full-scale war, armed conflicts between Jews and Arabs had been frequent since Great Britain received the League of Nations mandate for Palestine in 1920. From 1945 to 1948 Zionists waged guerrilla war against British troops and against Palestinian Arabs supported by the Arab League, and they had made substantial gains by 1948. The 1948–49 War reflected the opposition of the Arab states to the formation of the Jewish state of Israel in what they considered to be Arab territory.

As independence was declared, Arab forces from Egypt, Syria, Transjordan (later Jordan), Lebanon, and Iraq invaded Israel. The Egyptians gained some territory in the south and the Jordanians took Jerusalem's Old City, but the other Arab forces were soon halted. In June the United Nations succeeded in establishing a four-week truce. This was followed in July by significant Israeli advances before another truce. Fighting erupted again in August and continued sporadically until the end of 1948. An Israeli advance in Jan., 1949, isolated Egyptian forces and led to a cease-fire (Jan. 7, 1949).

Protracted peace talks resulted in armistice agreements between Israel and Egypt, Syria, and Jordan by July, but no formal peace. In addition, about 400,000 Palestinian Arabs had fled from Israel and were settled in refugee camps near Israel's border; their status became a volatile factor in Arab-Israeli relations.



I stand by what i said Gaff part of the settlement should be a pledge by arab countries who decided that a military solution was the best one. They have a big role in this mess but you don't see it because I think maybe you are a little anti-semitic.

[alkemical]

From what I understand listening to NPR, Hamas has been firing rockets at the Israelis from Gaza for years and now Israel has moved in to stop them and the Hamas spokesman says Israel will never stop them from firing rockets. And these are the people the Palestinians elected to lead them?

So Israel instigates nothing?

[Hotrod]

So Israel instigates nothing?

Nope they just open up a big old can of whoop ass. :)

Of course they do and it needs to be stopped. The problem is I have no sympathy for the Pals as long as they continue to us suicide bombers and rockets launched at population center.

How the hell can Israel come to the table while rockets are flying at her citizens???

[troya900]

It's ironic how the Pals and their sympathizers whine how they are deprived of food, gas, etc. etc., yet they have a never-ending supply of rockets to shoot off at Israel.

[Rohirrim]

So Israel instigates nothing?

I think both sides are equally insane. Which is why I want the U.S. to stop meddling over there.

[alkemical]

I think both sides are equally insane. Which is why I want the U.S. to stop meddling over there.

That's my position Ro~. I'm tired of supporting one murder for another.

[alkemical]

Nope they just open up a big old can of whoop ass. :)

Of course they do and it needs to be stopped. The problem is I have no sympathy for the Pals as long as they continue to us suicide bombers and rockets launched at population center.

How the hell can Israel come to the table while rockets are flying at her citizens???

What's the difference between a suicide bomber & some appache's tearing up cars in an intersection with rockets and missiles. The end result is still the same.

That's why i can't justify it for anyone. Death is still death, murder is still murder.

[cutthemdown]

What's the difference between a suicide bomber & some appache's tearing up cars in an intersection with rockets and missiles. The end result is still the same.

That's why i can't justify it for anyone. Death is still death, murder is still murder.

Most people can agree IMO that both sides share blame. Really is who is at fault the most important factor in a settlement that brings peace.

The facts are Hamas and the Palestinians are trying to use violent resistance to obtain there goals of an independent Palestine. IMO it's obvious that it won't work. By doing that they doom there people to lives of Israeli oppression. Like it or not a country with more might is never going to concede land to an inferior force through the use of violence.

The only way to bring down a power that is more then you is through passive resistance and world opinion.

As long as Hamas gives Israel rocket attacks to justify there aggression then the status quo will remain for many more years.

[cutthemdown]

What's the difference between a suicide bomber & some appache's tearing up cars in an intersection with rockets and missiles. The end result is still the same.

That's why i can't justify it for anyone. Death is still death, murder is still murder.

The main difference is the Apache's are very effective and the rocket attacks are not.

[Meck77]

Wow...Just heard on the news the Israel bombed a freaking school killing dozens of people.

[gyldenlove]

Most people can agree IMO that both sides share blame. Really is who is at fault the most important factor in a settlement that brings peace.

The facts are Hamas and the Palestinians are trying to use violent resistance to obtain there goals of an independent Palestine. IMO it's obvious that it won't work. By doing that they doom there people to lives of Israeli oppression. Like it or not a country with more might is never going to concede land to an inferior force through the use of violence.

The only way to bring down a power that is more then you is through passive resistance and world opinion.

As long as Hamas gives Israel rocket attacks to justify there aggression then the status quo will remain for many more years.

I agree here, I think the best they can do is to take a page out of Mohadma Gandhis playbook and do some good old fashioned marches and sitdown protests.

If you look at another muslim terrorrist hotspot in the Caucasus in Chechnia, they used to have tons of goodwill and the international society was putting a fair bit of pressure on the Russians to get something done, then they go and kidnap an entire school and murder and rape kids, and now people couldn't care less. I bet you the Russians could run their T-90s all over truckloads of civilian Chechnians and nobody would bat an eyelash, because the Chechnians kills kids.

The Palestinians should make a grand gesture, lay down the weapons, start cooperating and stop being idiots, that would leave Isreal looking squarely like the bad guys.

[alkemical]

Most people can agree IMO that both sides share blame. Really is who is at fault the most important factor in a settlement that brings peace.

The facts are Hamas and the Palestinians are trying to use violent resistance to obtain there goals of an independent Palestine. IMO it's obvious that it won't work. By doing that they doom there people to lives of Israeli oppression. Like it or not a country with more might is never going to concede land to an inferior force through the use of violence.

The only way to bring down a power that is more then you is through passive resistance and world opinion.

As long as Hamas gives Israel rocket attacks to justify there aggression then the status quo will remain for many more years.



As long as israel keeps blowing up intersections and markets, and starving people, it will continue.

Noone is right in this instance, therefore there is no fault.

The only way to get passed all this, is for people to just get over it.

[alkemical]

The main difference is the Apache's are very effective and the rocket attacks are not.

LOL, you are silly. What's the end result when 25 people are dead or killed? No matter what nationality/religion they are.

See, this is why this world deserves to have humans die. People like you who justify death and killing are no different than any other who justifies death and killing.

[cutthemdown]

I agree here, I think the best they can do is to take a page out of Mohadma Gandhis playbook and do some good old fashioned marches and sitdown protests.

If you look at another muslim terrorrist hotspot in the Caucasus in Chechnia, they used to have tons of goodwill and the international society was putting a fair bit of pressure on the Russians to get something done, then they go and kidnap an entire school and murder and rape kids, and now people couldn't care less. I bet you the Russians could run their T-90s all over truckloads of civilian Chechnians and nobody would bat an eyelash, because the Chechnians kills kids.

The Palestinians should make a grand gesture, lay down the weapons, start cooperating and stop being idiots, that would leave Isreal looking squarely like the bad guys.

Yeah that's my thinking as well. It's not that Israel is right it's that they are too strong for Hamas and the Palestinians to beat. They would have better luck playing the victim and the martyr and stopping all violence. A few yrs of Israeli's not making peace, but Palestinians not attacking them, IMO would lead to a huge backlash by Americans.

[cutthemdown]

LOL, you are silly. What's the end result when 25 people are dead or killed? No matter what nationality/religion they are.

See, this is why this world deserves to have humans die. People like you who justify death and killing are no different than any other who justifies death and killing.

silly rabbit huh? Well you didn't understand my post. I don't justify anything I only say that as long as Israel has attacks to point to Palestinians won't be able to win the war when it comes to the minds of Americans.

My point on the Apache's is that when Israel strikes they do considerable damage. When Hamas strikes they fire a rocket that probably won't even kill anyone. It's a mismatch. Hamas can't win, they should lay down arms and try a new approach.

You are wrong though i don't revel in death or think Israel has no fault. I just think Hamas has no chance and as long as they fire rockets most Americans will support the Israelis.

[mhgaffney]

Wow I checked on the net and every timeline of the 48 war says same thing. Transjordan, later became Jordan, was a major player in the 48 war.

This one lifted on info.com. Wikipedia said same thing.


The 1948–49 War

Although Israel's independence on May 14, 1948, triggered the first full-scale war, armed conflicts between Jews and Arabs had been frequent since Great Britain received the League of Nations mandate for Palestine in 1920. From 1945 to 1948 Zionists waged guerrilla war against British troops and against Palestinian Arabs supported by the Arab League, and they had made substantial gains by 1948. The 1948–49 War reflected the opposition of the Arab states to the formation of the Jewish state of Israel in what they considered to be Arab territory.

As independence was declared, Arab forces from Egypt, Syria, Transjordan (later Jordan), Lebanon, and Iraq invaded Israel. The Egyptians gained some territory in the south and the Jordanians took Jerusalem's Old City, but the other Arab forces were soon halted. In June the United Nations succeeded in establishing a four-week truce. This was followed in July by significant Israeli advances before another truce. Fighting erupted again in August and continued sporadically until the end of 1948. An Israeli advance in Jan., 1949, isolated Egyptian forces and led to a cease-fire (Jan. 7, 1949).

Protracted peace talks resulted in armistice agreements between Israel and Egypt, Syria, and Jordan by July, but no formal peace. In addition, about 400,000 Palestinian Arabs had fled from Israel and were settled in refugee camps near Israel's border; their status became a volatile factor in Arab-Israeli relations.



I stand by what i said Gaff part of the settlement should be a pledge by arab countries who decided that a military solution was the best one. They have a big role in this mess but you don't see it because I think maybe you are a little anti-semitic.


Cut,

As I'm sure you know there's a lot of garbage on the web. Wikepedia is not the best source. I did this research back in the 1980s and it is covered in my book on Israel's nukes. My sources are mostly Israeli scholars.
http://www.gnosticsecrets.com/pages/dimona.htm

If Jordan were involved in the 48 war then how do you explain the fact that Jordan governed the W Bank betwen 1949-1967? Explain that one.

No question, Zionist armies fought around Jerusalem -- and between Jerusalem and the coast. But if the W Bank had been a battleground you can bet the Zionists would have conquered it in 1948-49. It would have been a part of Israel in 1949. Check the map. It wasn't.

Me anti semitic? Naah. As I have stated many times this is not about Judaism -- not even about religion. That's secondary. It's about colonialism and real estate.

MHG

[cutthemdown]

Cut,

As I'm sure you know there's a lot of garbage on the web. Wikepedia is not the best source. I did this research back in the 1980s and it is covered in my book on Israel's nukes. My sources are mostly Israeli scholars.
http://www.gnosticsecrets.com/pages/dimona.htm

If Jordan were involved in the 48 war then how do you explain the fact that Jordan governed the W Bank betwen 1949-1967? Explain that one.

No question, Zionist armies fought around Jerusalem -- and between Jerusalem and the coast. But if the W Bank had been a battleground you can bet the Zionists would have conquered it in 1948-49. It would have been a part of Israel in 1949. Check the map. It wasn't.

Me anti semitic? Naah. As I have stated many times this is not about Judaism -- not even about religion. That's secondary. It's about colonialism and real estate.

MHG



Gaff I just checked every link I could find on the Arab/Israeli 1948 war and everyone from MSNencarta, to zionist webpages, to wikipedia, to a site in canada, then I decided to call my friend who lives in Israel and she confirmed that her dad fought against Jordanian soldiers from the transjordan Army in the war for independence. She says that Transjordan changed it's name to Jordan sometime right after the conflict.

How do you explain your differences with what seems to be common knowledge.

I have a feeling if it were 40 yrs from now you would talk about your 9-11 fantasies like they were facts also.

How about some proof showing Jordan wasn't involved in links or stuff like I did my point.

[cutthemdown]

From a duke university webpage

http://cssaame.dukejournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/28/3/459

King `Abdallah's political ambitions in Palestine—the<sup> </sup>annexation of Palestine to Transjordan under his rule—and<sup> </sup>his wish to send his army (the Arab Legion) to realize these<sup> </sup>ambitions, worried leaders of Arab countries. In an attempt<sup> </sup>to prevent King `Abdallah from realizing this goal, the ArabLeague decided in December 1947 to establish an Arab volunteerarmy, known as the Arab Liberation Army, under the command ofFauzi al-Qawuqji. The aim of this irregular army was to fightthe Jews and to prevent the Arabs from sending their regulararmies (including the Arab Legion) to Palestine. Al-Qawuqji and King `Abdallah, however, had been very close<sup> </sup>since 1936, when with the king's help al-Qawuqji escaped from<sup> </sup>the British to Transjordan. Al-Qawuji was opposed to the former<sup> </sup>mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Huseini, and therefore al-Qawuji<sup> </sup>and King `Abdallah were on one side against the mufti and opposedto his political ambition to establish an independent Palestinianstate. This political closeness between the two leaders formedthe basis of King `Abdallah's aid to al-Qawuqji and to the Arab<sup> </sup>Liberation Army's entrance into Palestine from Transjordan,<sup> </sup>in return for Palestine's staying in the Arab territories—the<sup> </sup>territories King `Abdallah wanted to annex to Transjordan. TheArab Liberation Army soldiers deployed in these territoriesclashed with the mufti's supporters and diminished the mufti'sinfluence in Palestine, helping King `Abdallah finally to conquerthe territories and to annex them to Transjordan.

This explains how they got control of west bank. I guess you''re splitting hairs just because the Arabs made an army called the Arab Liberation Army containing troops of all countries you feel those countries get off.

I stand by that Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and transjordan all sent troops in some numbers to fight in the 48 war.

IMO all those countries should be part of the settlement. They all have some blame and should have to help the Palestinians rebuild. If it was important enough to kill over 50 some odd yrs ago when they started all this BS then they should be willing to step up.

Gaff please show me something other then your book that proves these countries played no part in that conflict.

[NUB]

(Trans-)Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon all fought Israel in '48.


The war ended with expanded Israeli land, but Syria controlled the Golan Heights, Jordan the West Bank, and Egypt the Gaza Strip. For the 19-years they were controlled no Arab nation made a serious effort to turn them into a Palestinian state, which just goes to show you just how f'ed these folks are.

[broncocalijohn]

From what I understand listening to NPR, Hamas has been firing rockets at the Israelis from Gaza for years and now Israel has moved in to stop them and the Hamas spokesman says Israel will never stop them from firing rockets. And these are the people the Palestinians elected to lead them?

THis is the thing that many dont realize. People think Israel is this big bully
and pulling this out of thin air to show their might. 3k rockets that land inside israel aimed at nothing but "Israel" is never protested against but once Israel defends itself, thousands want to cry for Palestine. Nobody gives a rats ass over there about Palenstine. Egypt has a wall to keep them out.
Anyone watch Geraldo the other day where the UNSpokesman for Palestine wouldnt condemn the rockets launching into Israel or wouldnt call them terrorist acts? If you get a chance to see it, it shows how much Hamas is for not peace, but the destruction of Israel.

[mhgaffney]

Cut,

Check out the maps again. They do not lie. You'll notice that nearly all of the Jewish population pre 1948 was along the central coast. Tel Aviv was the center of Jewish settlement. These are the areas the Zionists conquered first.

There was also a sizeable Jewish population in Jerusalem -- with lots of fighting there. The road between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv was a major battlefield. The Zionists had to keep it open or risk losing Jerusalem.

There were also kibbutzes in the north, in Galilee and in the southern coastal strip. But the W Bank was 100% Arab until after the 1967 war -- when Moshe Dayan first started encouraging Jewish settlement.

No doubt there were movements of Arab armies and Palestinians there during the 48 war.No doubt the W Bank was considered an Arab stronghold. But in 48-49 the Zionists were primarily interested in securing the Jewish part of the country.

I will post the top histories. However, I don't have time right now to search the web -- too busy with 9/11 research.

Also, I will be gone for coupla days. MHG

[mhgaffney]

Here are three well recommended histories.

Avi Shlaim, COLLUSION ACROSS THE JORDAN 1988.

Benny Morris, THE ORIGINS OF THE PALESTINIAN REFUGEE PROBLEM, new edition 2004

Simha Flapan, THE BIRTH OF ISRAEL, 1988 -- This one is highly recommended. Flapan renounced Zionism after he realized he had wasted his life defending a monstrous lie. In his book he explodes a shopping list of misconceptions - myths -- about Zionism. He changed after he studied David ben Gurions war diaries -- and other declassified Zionist war records.

http://www.amazon.com/Birth-Israel-Myths-Realities/dp/0679720987/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231329545&sr=1-1

[NUB]

Here is the 1949/1950 armistice agreement where Jordan eventually came to annex the West Bank. Now, I don't know what you're really reading, but it's a narrative I have found pretty much nowhere. All I have to ask is how could Jordan possibly gain so much from a conflict that they did not participate in?

http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Egov46/israel-post-armstice-1949.gif

[cutthemdown]

Here are three well recommended histories.

Avi Shlaim, COLLUSION ACROSS THE JORDAN 1988.

Benny Morris, THE ORIGINS OF THE PALESTINIAN REFUGEE PROBLEM, new edition 2004

Simha Flapan, THE BIRTH OF ISRAEL, 1988 -- This one is highly recommended. Flapan renounced Zionism after he realized he had wasted his life defending a monstrous lie. In his book he explodes a shopping list of misconceptions - myths -- about Zionism. He changed after he studied David ben Gurions war diaries -- and other declassified Zionist war records.

http://www.amazon.com/Birth-Israel-Myths-Realities/dp/0679720987/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231329545&sr=1-1




Here is a review of Benny Morris's book Gaff


Reviewed by Glenn Frankel

In a zero-sum world, one side's gain must be exactly balanced by another's loss. In such a world, violence is inevitable, compromise is betrayal, neutral observers are enemies, and the only heroes are those willing to take the contest to its logical, lethal conclusion. And the only histories worth publishing are those that validate your own self-sustaining myths.

The remorseless, zero-sum conflict between the stateof Israel and the Palestinianshas been going on for three score years,and despite the sadly belated efforts of a lame-duck Bush administration, there is no end in sight.

The fault-line was clearly visible in mid-May: While Israelis sang "Happy Birthday" to themselves to celebrate the 60th anniversary of their independence, Palestinians were mourning 60 years of al-Naqba, "the Catastrophe."

Each side's narrative is self-contained and in total conflict with the other. In the Israeli version, Holocaust survivors redeemed their ancestral homeland against extraordinary odds by defeating bloodthirsty Palestinian terrorists and five Arab armies, while thousands of Arab civilians abandoned their homes under the directive of leaders who promised glory and spoils upon their return. The Arab counter-narrative depicts Palestinians as hapless victims of a vastly superior Jewish army, backed by the United States and Britain, waging a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing according to a plan laid out before the first shot was fired.

Both accounts contain elements of truth. Neither one was constructed for the sake of veracity, however. Each was useful in mobilizing members of a particular tribe to sustain the conflict: Israelis in their beleaguered fortress-state; Palestinians in their refugee camps, some still fondling the keys to their lost homes. The narratives have nurtured their separate identities -- and their enduring grievances.

Benny Morris, born in 1948 on a kibbutz, is a charter member of a generation of Israeli historians who have challenged his country's founding narrative and deepened our understanding of the roots of the conflict. A former Jerusalem Post correspondent with a doctorate from Cambridge University, he first came to prominence with his 1988 book, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949, a ground-breaking, revisionist account of how Israeli forces uprooted and expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians during Israel's independence war. His new book is an ambitious, detailed and engaging portrait of the war itself -- from its origins to its unresolved aftermath -- that further shatters myths on both sides of the Israeli-Arab divide.

Morris splits the war into two distinct phases. The first was a civil war between Jewish and Palestinian militias that began in November 1947, when the United Nations General Assembly approved the partition of British-run Palestine into two countries, one dominated by Jews, the other by Palestinian Arabs. Despite early setbacks, the main Jewish military force, known as the Haganah, rolled up major victories and forced much of the Arab population to flee. The key moment, according to Morris, came in early April when the Haganah took the offensive and seized as much land as possible before the planned British military departure. "Palestinian Arab society fell apart and was crushed by a relatively poorly armed and, in many ways, ragtag Jewish militia," Morris writes.

The second phase was the Pan-Arab invasion by the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq (Lebanon stayed largely on the sidelines) after Israel's declaration of independence on May 14, 1948. The Israelis won that struggle as well, expanding the territory of the new Jewish state well beyond the original partition lines and expelling hundreds of thousands more Palestinians in the process.

Along the way, Morris seeks to separate fact from legend. It's true, Morris notes, that the Arab states had a combined population of 40 million, while the Jewish community, known in Hebrew as the Yishuv, numbered a mere 650,000. But the Yishuv, led by the indomitable David Ben-Gurion, "had organized for war. The Arabs hadn't." Arab Palestine, lacking a great leader or unifying principle, amounted to a series of disparate towns, villages and clans rather than a coherent nation, and it succumbed readily to a spirit of powerlessness and fatalism.

As for the war that followed, the combined Arab militaries were far stronger than the Haganah, Morris argues, if not in manpower then certainly in equipment and firepower. But Israeli forces had some "home court advantages" over the four invading armies, such as a unified command, internal lines of communication, familiarity with the terrain and a commitment to protect their homes and families. By the end of the war, they outnumbered the Arab soldiers almost 2 to 1 and produced smashing victories on virtually every front.

Morris is remarkably even-handed when he sifts through the evidence of atrocities. During the civil-war phase, he says, neither side paid much heed to the possible injury or death of civilians, and both sides executed prisoners. In the more conventional fighting that followed, the killing of civilians and prisoners of war mostly stopped -- except for a series of atrocities committed by Israeli troops in the Palestinian town of Lydda in central Israel and in the Galilee. "In truth," writes Morris, "the Jews committed far more atrocities than the Arabs and killed far more civilians and POWs in deliberate acts of brutality in the course of 1948."

Morris doesn't attribute this to any greater morality on the Arab side but rather to the fact that the victorious Israelis captured some 400 Arab villages and towns, while the Arabs overran fewer than a dozen Jewish settlements. By his tally, Palestinians slaughtered some 190 Israelis in two large-scale massacres, while Israeli troops probably murdered some 800 Arab civilians and prisoners of war. But in comparison to modern slaughterhouses like Bosnia or the Congo, the atrocities were relatively limited. The 1948 war "is actually noteworthy for the relatively small number of civilian casualties," Morris concludes.

As for the 700,000 Palestinian refugees, he rejects the claims of other revisionist historians -- most notably Ilan Pappe in his 2006 book, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine -- that the expulsions were part of Plan D, drawn up by Zionist leaders and military officers in Tel Aviv in March 1948 and carried out with relentless precision. Morris contends that the plan called for the destruction only of villages that resisted conquest, not those that were quiescent. "Nowhere does the document speak of a policy or desire to expel 'the Arab inhabitants' of Palestine," he writes, adding that "nowhere is any brigade instructed to clear out 'the Arabs.' "

Why is all of this worth re-adjudicating six decades after the event? Because none of it has been resolved. For Israelis, 1948 is central to the legitimacy of the Jewish state. For Palestinians, it is an open wound; if the refugees were unfairly expelled, then they should be allowed to return.

One weakness of Morris's book is that he can offer little documentation of the Arab side. Most of the archives of countries like Egypt, Jordan, Iraq and Syria remain off-limits. Too often Morris ends up speculating about the perceptions and motives of Arab leaders because he lacks the documentation that enriches his treatment of the Israeli side.

Morris himself is a controversial figure in the conflict over the conflict. As an army reservist in 1988, he protested Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip by refusing to report for duty during the first Palestinian uprising; he spent three weeks in jail as a consequence. But after the second intifada broke out in 2000, he condemned Palestinian suicide bombers as "barbarians" and said the early Israelis were right to have expelled their Arab neighbors. "When the choice is between destroying or being destroyed, it's better to destroy," he told the Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz.

Despite his personal views, Morris strives to give a balanced view of the conflict. The collapse of the Arab military effort caused a chain reaction of coups and assassinations that brought down many of the old regimes. Leaders were killed or discarded in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Jordan. "But 1948 has haunted, and still haunts, the Arab world on the deepest levels of collective identity, ego, and pride," Morris writes. "The war was a humiliation from which that world has yet to recover."



Sure looks like Morris also says Jordan was part of this war Gaff. What gives?

[alkemical]

silly rabbit huh? Well you didn't understand my post. I don't justify anything I only say that as long as Israel has attacks to point to Palestinians won't be able to win the war when it comes to the minds of Americans.

My point on the Apache's is that when Israel strikes they do considerable damage. When Hamas strikes they fire a rocket that probably won't even kill anyone. It's a mismatch. Hamas can't win, they should lay down arms and try a new approach.

You are wrong though i don't revel in death or think Israel has no fault. I just think Hamas has no chance and as long as they fire rockets most Americans will support the Israelis.

Ok, this post - i'm with you on.

[Hotrod]

Gaff I just checked every link I could find on the Arab/Israeli 1948 war and everyone from MSNencarta, to zionist webpages, to wikipedia, to a site in canada, then I decided to call my friend who lives in Israel and she confirmed that her dad fought against Jordanian soldiers from the transjordan Army in the war for independence. She says that Transjordan changed it's name to Jordan sometime right after the conflict.

How do you explain your differences with what seems to be common knowledge.

I have a feeling if it were 40 yrs from now you would talk about your 9-11 fantasies like they were facts also.

How about some proof showing Jordan wasn't involved in links or stuff like I did my point.

Gee Gaff making **** up to fit his personal 'opinons' who would have thunk it Ha!

[The Lone Bolt]

Gee Gaff making **** up to fit his personal 'opinons' who would have thunk it Ha!

This thread once again demonstrates Gaffney's long standing policy of simply ignoring overwhelming evidence that proves him wrong beyond any reasonable doubt. It's clearly the method by which Gaff has dug himself so deep in his paranoid fantasies that he cannot dig himself out (or perhaps refuses to).

[Rohirrim]

Here's what they teach at the War College: All wars are resolved politically. In other words, war is a failure of politics and diplomacy. Until the two sides get serious about a political resolution, there will be war. Ask the Irish. If they want it to go on for four hundred years, then so be it. That's their decision.

[barryr]

The Palestinians have been run out of other Arab countries, so this notion that they care what happens to them is pure crap. It's just their excuse to shoot at Jews. Notice they shoot and hide behind Palestinians. The muslim terrorists don't care if Palestinians die, they just use their deaths as a way to get people who don't pay attention and the media to get mad at Israel for killing them. In fact, one can firmly believe Hamas especially wants Israel to kill Palestinians to help get sympathy, which again, works on the simple minded.

[baja]

Here's what they teach at the War College: All wars are resolved politically. In other words, war is a failure of politics and diplomacy. Until the two sides get serious about a political resolution, there will be war. Ask the Irish. If they want it to go on for four hundred years, then so be it. That's their decision.

Do what they do in Mexico lock everybody up in really shiity conditions until the concerned parties find a solution. It gets worked out pretty fast, 4 pound cockroaches will do that for ya.

[cutthemdown]

So where is Gaff to respond that Morris his hero is also quoted as including Jordan among the participants in the 1948 Arab/Israeli war.

I think you are mistaken on your history. For a guy that writes books about it that's pretty bad.

You might want to just give that up and instead give tours to sites where alien abductions occurred.

[cutthemdown]

The Palestinians have been run out of other Arab countries, so this notion that they care what happens to them is pure crap. It's just their excuse to shoot at Jews. Notice they shoot and hide behind Palestinians. The muslim terrorists don't care if Palestinians die, they just use their deaths as a way to get people who don't pay attention and the media to get mad at Israel for killing them. In fact, one can firmly believe Hamas especially wants Israel to kill Palestinians to help get sympathy, which again, works on the simple minded.


Not to mention Egypt hates Hamas as much as Israelis do.

[Spider]

This thread once again demonstrates Gaffney's long standing policy of simply ignoring overwhelming evidence that proves him wrong beyond any reasonable doubt. It's clearly the method by which Gaff has dug himself so deep in his paranoid fantasies that he cannot dig himself out (or perhaps refuses to).

are you saying the Jews are totally innocent ?
Here is Ghaffs #1 problem , he sees what the Jews do and takes up for the other side , in reality it takes 2 to tango , make no mistake , Israel is on a land grab mission , they want what they had before , Arabs standing in the way .....
Jews should do like we do , buy the ****ers out .......

[cutthemdown]

are you saying the Jews are totally innocent ?
Here is Ghaffs #1 problem , he sees what the Jews do and takes up for the other side , in reality it takes 2 to tango , make no mistake , Israel is on a land grab mission , they want what they had before , Arabs standing in the way .....
Jews should do like we do , buy the ****ers out .......

No we are saying Gaff saying Jordan didn't participate in the 48 war when every history book, including a revisionist one written by someone he said was an expert says they were. He refuses to admit he was wrong on that because if he does he loses his perception of himself as an expert.

[Spider]

No we are saying Gaff saying Jordan didn't participate in the 48 war when every history book, including a revisionist one written by someone he said was an expert says they were. He refuses to admit he was wrong on that because if he does he loses his perception of himself as an expert.

I knew what you was saying , and you are right , Ghaff screwed the pooch on that

[cutthemdown]

When women and children are being killed how can either side claim innocence. Even when violence can be justified it isn't innocent.

[cutthemdown]

I knew what you was saying , and you are right , Ghaff screwed the pooch on that

I honestly didn't know for sure until iI researched a bit. I had just made a comment that I thought the Arab countries that originally participated in the 48 war should have to spend so money to rebuild for palestinians.

I was thinking they share some blame by attacking and not finishing the job, they in the end left the Palestinians to be the martyrs and they pulled back to their own countries and forgot about them.

IMO Israel should give up settlements in west bank that are less then 10 yrs old. Then Palestinians get half of Jerusalem to make a capital. The Syria gives up claim to Golan Heights to make Israel feel like they are getting something good. Then rebuild Palestine but make the Arab countries pledge like 300 billion over a period of yrs to make up for the fact they attacked and basically screwed the Palestinians.

[alkemical]

are you saying the Jews are totally innocent ?
Here is Ghaffs #1 problem , he sees what the Jews do and takes up for the other side , in reality it takes 2 to tango , make no mistake , Israel is on a land grab mission , they want what they had before , Arabs standing in the way .....
Jews should do like we do , buy the ****ers out .......

Ding ding ding - winner!

[Hotrod]

Ding ding ding - winner!

Yes but if your 4'6" 100lbs you should not provoke the 6'6" 240lb guy on the bar stool next too you unless you like getting your ass used as a broom and your face used like a mop.

[alkemical]

Yes but if your 4'6" 100lbs you should not provoke the 6'6" 240lb guy on the bar stool next too you unless you like getting your ass used as a broom and your face used like a mop.

Depends on if the little guy is crazy.

[Hotrod]

Depends on if the little guy is crazy.

Life is certainly full of choices.....some more painful then others as the Pals and the little guy on the barstool find out :)

[mhgaffney]

Gaff I just checked every link I could find on the Arab/Israeli 1948 war and everyone from MSNencarta, to zionist webpages, to wikipedia, to a site in canada, then I decided to call my friend who lives in Israel and she confirmed that her dad fought against Jordanian soldiers from the transjordan Army in the war for independence. She says that Transjordan changed it's name to Jordan sometime right after the conflict.

How do you explain your differences with what seems to be common knowledge.

I have a feeling if it were 40 yrs from now you would talk about your 9-11 fantasies like they were facts also.

How about some proof showing Jordan wasn't involved in links or stuff like I did my point.

Cut,

Check out this op ed by Oxford professor Avi Shlaim, one of Israel's top historians. I cited him to you the other day.

He agrees with my analysis of the Gaza crisis on every point. If this doesn't convince you I am not making stuff up -- then nothing will.

When I get a chance -- I will do some digging -- and try to resolve the issue of Jordan's role in the 48 war.
MHG

How Israel Brought Gaza to the Brink of Humanitarian Catastrophe

Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions

By Avi Shlaim

January 08, 2009 "The Guardian" -- - The only way to make sense of Israel's senseless war in Gaza is through understanding the historical context. Establishing the state of Israel in May 1948 involved a monumental injustice to the Palestinians. British officials bitterly resented American partisanship on behalf of the infant state. On 2 June 1948, Sir John Troutbeck wrote to the foreign secretary, Ernest Bevin, that the Americans were responsible for the creation of a gangster state headed by "an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders". I used to think that this judgment was too harsh but Israel's vicious assault on the people of Gaza, and the Bush administration's complicity in this assault, have reopened the question.
I write as someone who served loyally in the Israeli army in the mid-1960s and who has never questioned the legitimacy of the state of Israel within its pre-1967 borders. What I utterly reject is the Zionist colonial project beyond the Green Line. The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the aftermath of the June 1967 war had very little to do with security and everything to do with territorial expansionism. The aim was to establish Greater Israel through permanent political, economic and military control over the Palestinian territories. And the result has been one of the most prolonged and brutal military occupations of modern times.

Four decades of Israeli control did incalculable damage to the economy of the Gaza Strip. With a large population of 1948 refugees crammed into a tiny strip of land, with no infrastructure or natural resources, Gaza's prospects were never bright. Gaza, however, is not simply a case of economic under-development but a uniquely cruel case of deliberate de-development. To use the Biblical phrase, Israel turned the people of Gaza into the hewers of wood and the drawers of water, into a source of cheap labour and a captive market for Israeli goods. The development of local industry was actively impeded so as to make it impossible for the Palestinians to end their subordination to Israel and to establish the economic underpinnings essential for real political independence.

Gaza is a classic case of colonial exploitation in the post-colonial era. Jewish settlements in occupied territories are immoral, illegal and an insurmountable obstacle to peace. They are at once the instrument of exploitation and the symbol of the hated occupation. In Gaza, the Jewish settlers numbered only 8,000 in 2005 compared with 1.4 million local residents. Yet the settlers controlled 25% of the territory, 40% of the arable land and the lion's share of the scarce water resources. Cheek by jowl with these foreign intruders, the majority of the local population lived in abject poverty and unimaginable misery. Eighty per cent of them still subsist on less than $2 a day. The living conditions in the strip remain an affront to civilised values, a powerful precipitant to resistance and a fertile breeding ground for political extremism.

In August 2005 a Likud government headed by Ariel Sharon staged a unilateral Israeli pullout from Gaza, withdrawing all 8,000 settlers and destroying the houses and farms they had left behind. Hamas, the Islamic resistance movement, conducted an effective campaign to drive the Israelis out of Gaza. The withdrawal was a humiliation for the Israeli Defence Forces. To the world, Sharon presented the withdrawal from Gaza as a contribution to peace based on a two-state solution. But in the year after, another 12,000 Israelis settled on the West Bank, further reducing the scope for an independent Palestinian state. Land-grabbing and peace-making are simply incompatible. Israel had a choice and it chose land over peace.

The real purpose behind the move was to redraw unilaterally the borders of Greater Israel by incorporating the main settlement blocs on the West Bank to the state of Israel. Withdrawal from Gaza was thus not a prelude to a peace deal with the Palestinian Authority but a prelude to further Zionist expansion on the West Bank. It was a unilateral Israeli move undertaken in what was seen, mistakenly in my view, as an Israeli national interest. Anchored in a fundamental rejection of the Palestinian national identity, the withdrawal from Gaza was part of a long-term effort to deny the Palestinian people any independent political existence on their land.

Israel's settlers were withdrawn but Israeli soldiers continued to control all access to the Gaza Strip by land, sea and air. Gaza was converted overnight into an open-air prison. From this point on, the Israeli air force enjoyed unrestricted freedom to drop bombs, to make sonic booms by flying low and breaking the sound barrier, and to terrorise the hapless inhabitants of this prison.

Israel likes to portray itself as an island of democracy in a sea of authoritarianism. Yet Israel has never in its entire history done anything to promote democracy on the Arab side and has done a great deal to undermine it. Israel has a long history of secret collaboration with reactionary Arab regimes to suppress Palestinian nationalism. Despite all the handicaps, the Palestinian people succeeded in building the only genuine democracy in the Arab world with the possible exception of Lebanon. In January 2006, free and fair elections for the Legislative Council of the Palestinian Authority brought to power a Hamas-led government. Israel, however, refused to recognise the democratically elected government, claiming that Hamas is purely and simply a terrorist organisation.

America and the EU shamelessly joined Israel in ostracising and demonising the Hamas government and in trying to bring it down by withholding tax revenues and foreign aid. A surreal situation thus developed with a significant part of the international community imposing economic sanctions not against the occupier but against the occupied, not against the oppressor but against the oppressed.

As so often in the tragic history of Palestine, the victims were blamed for their own misfortunes. Israel's propaganda machine persistently purveyed the notion that the Palestinians are terrorists, that they reject coexistence with the Jewish state, that their nationalism is little more than antisemitism, that Hamas is just a bunch of religious fanatics and that Islam is incompatible with democracy. But the simple truth is that the Palestinian people are a normal people with normal aspirations. They are no better but they are no worse than any other national group. What they aspire to, above all, is a piece of land to call their own on which to live in freedom and dignity.

Like other radical movements, Hamas began to moderate its political programme following its rise to power. From the ideological rejectionism of its charter, it began to move towards pragmatic accommodation of a two-state solution. In March 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a national unity government that was ready to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with Israel. Israel, however, refused to negotiate with a government that included Hamas.

It continued to play the old game of divide and rule between rival Palestinian factions. In the late 1980s, Israel had supported the nascent Hamas in order to weaken Fatah, the secular nationalist movement led by Yasser Arafat. Now Israel began to encourage the corrupt and pliant Fatah leaders to overthrow their religious political rivals and recapture power. Aggressive American neoconservatives participated in the sinister plot to instigate a Palestinian civil war. Their meddling was a major factor in the collapse of the national unity government and in driving Hamas to seize power in Gaza in June 2007 to pre-empt a Fatah coup.

The war unleashed by Israel on Gaza on 27 December was the culmination of a series of clashes and confrontations with the Hamas government. In a broader sense, however, it is a war between Israel and the Palestinian people, because the people had elected the party to power. The declared aim of the war is to weaken Hamas and to intensify the pressure until its leaders agree to a new ceasefire on Israel's terms. The undeclared aim is to ensure that the Palestinians in Gaza are seen by the world simply as a humanitarian problem and thus to derail their struggle for independence and statehood.

The timing of the war was determined by political expediency. A general election is scheduled for 10 February and, in the lead-up to the election, all the main contenders are looking for an opportunity to prove their toughness. The army top brass had been champing at the bit to deliver a crushing blow to Hamas in order to remove the stain left on their reputation by the failure of the war against Hezbollah in Lebanon in July 2006. Israel's cynical leaders could also count on apathy and impotence of the pro-western Arab regimes and on blind support from President Bush in the twilight of his term in the White House. Bush readily obliged by putting all the blame for the crisis on Hamas, vetoing proposals at the UN Security Council for an immediate ceasefire and issuing Israel with a free pass to mount a ground invasion of Gaza.

As always, mighty Israel claims to be the victim of Palestinian aggression but the sheer asymmetry of power between the two sides leaves little room for doubt as to who is the real victim. This is indeed a conflict between David and Goliath but the Biblical image has been inverted - a small and defenceless Palestinian David faces a heavily armed, merciless and overbearing Israeli Goliath. The resort to brute military force is accompanied, as always, by the shrill rhetoric of victimhood and a farrago of self-pity overlaid with self-righteousness. In Hebrew this is known as the syndrome of bokhim ve-yorim, "crying and shooting".

To be sure, Hamas is not an entirely innocent party in this conflict. Denied the fruit of its electoral victory and confronted with an unscrupulous adversary, it has resorted to the weapon of the weak - terror. Militants from Hamas and Islamic Jihad kept launching Qassam rocket attacks against Israeli settlements near the border with Gaza until Egypt brokered a six-month ceasefire last June. The damage caused by these primitive rockets is minimal but the psychological impact is immense, prompting the public to demand protection from its government. Under the circumstances, Israel had the right to act in self-defence but its response to the pinpricks of rocket attacks was totally disproportionate. The figures speak for themselves. In the three years after the withdrawal from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. On the other hand, in 2005-7 alone, the IDF killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children.

Whatever the numbers, killing civilians is wrong. This rule applies to Israel as much as it does to Hamas, but Israel's entire record is one of unbridled and unremitting brutality towards the inhabitants of Gaza. Israel also maintained the blockade of Gaza after the ceasefire came into force which, in the view of the Hamas leaders, amounted to a violation of the agreement. During the ceasefire, Israel prevented any exports from leaving the strip in clear violation of a 2005 accord, leading to a sharp drop in employment opportunities. Officially, 49.1% of the population is unemployed. At the same time, Israel restricted drastically the number of trucks carrying food, fuel, cooking-gas canisters, spare parts for water and sanitation plants, and medical supplies to Gaza. It is difficult to see how starving and freezing the civilians of Gaza could protect the people on the Israeli side of the border. But even if it did, it would still be immoral, a form of collective punishment that is strictly forbidden by international humanitarian law.

The brutality of Israel's soldiers is fully matched by the mendacity of its spokesmen. Eight months before launching the current war on Gaza, Israel established a National Information Directorate. The core messages of this directorate to the media are that Hamas broke the ceasefire agreements; that Israel's objective is the defence of its population; and that Israel's forces are taking the utmost care not to hurt innocent civilians. Israel's spin doctors have been remarkably successful in getting this message across. But, in essence, their propaganda is a pack of lies.

A wide gap separates the reality of Israel's actions from the rhetoric of its spokesmen. It was not Hamas but the IDF that broke the ceasefire. It di d so by a raid into Gaza on 4 November that killed six Hamas men. Israel's objective is not just the defence of its population but the eventual overthrow of the Hamas government in Gaza by turning the people against their rulers. And far from taking care to spare civilians, Israel is guilty of indiscriminate bombing and of a three-year-old blockade that has brought the inhabitants of Gaza, now 1.5 million, to the brink of a humanitarian catastrophe.

The Biblical injunction of an eye for an eye is savage enough. But Israel's insane offensive against Gaza seems to follow the logic of an eye for an eyelash. After eight days of bombing, with a death toll of more than 400 Palestinians and four Israelis, the gung-ho cabinet ordered a land invasion of Gaza the consequences of which are incalculable.

No amount of military escalation can buy Israel immunity from rocket attacks from the military wing of Hamas. Despite all the death and destruction that Israel has inflicted on them, they kept up their resistance and they kept firing their rockets. This is a movement that glorifies victimhood and martyrdom. There is simply no military solution to the conflict between the two communities. The problem with Israel's concept of security is that it denies even the most elementary security to the other community. The only way for Israel to achieve security is not through shooting but through talks with Hamas, which has repeatedly declared its readiness to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with the Jewish state within its pre-1967 borders for 20, 30, or even 50 years. Israel has rejected this offer for the same reason it spurned the Arab League peace plan of 2002, which is still on the table: it involves concessions and compromises.

This brief review of Israel's record over the past four decades makes it difficult to resist the conclusion that it has become a rogue state with "an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders". A rogue state habitually violates international law, possesses weapons of mass destruction and practises terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel fulfils all of these three criteria; the cap fits and it must wear it. Israel's real aim is not peaceful coexistence with its Palestinian neighbours but military domination. It keeps compounding the mistakes of the past with new and more disastrous ones. Politicians, like everyone else, are of course free to repeat the lies and mistakes of the past. But it is not mandatory to do so.

• Avi Shlaim is a professor of international relations at the University of Oxford and the author of The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World and of Lion of Jordan: King Hussein's Life in War and Peace.

[alkemical]

Cut,

Check out this op ed by Oxford professor Avi Shlaim, one of Israel's top historians. I cited him to you the other day.

He agrees with my analysis of the Gaza crisis on every point. If this doesn't convince you I am not making stuff up -- then nothing will.

Just be wary of getting stuck thinking that if something validates, that's 100%. Remember, even false things can be true.

[alkemical]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians_journalists_banned

Israel keeps ban on foreign journalists in Gaza

[cutthemdown]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians_journalists_banned

Israel keeps ban on foreign journalists in Gaza

Israel is smart when it comes to that. Media IMO gives away valuable information to the enemy. If they were in the city they would report on tank and troops movements, everything. It would help Hamas.

[mhgaffney]

Cut,

How would it help Hamas?

Even before this crisis the people of Gaza only had electric power for 6 hours a day -- hence only very limited media/news.

At present -- you can be sure the power is off -- period. Though possibly they turn it on for 1-2 hours a day so people can pump water for drinking.

Its part of Israel's strategy of starving the Palestinans into submision. Barbarism by any other name.

So there is little chance what is seen on the news in Europe/the USA gets back to Gaza to help Hamas. Probably the Israelis are also interfering with cell phone service -- to isolate Gaza.

Beyond this -- even if Hamas had the knowledge -- what could they do? They are armed with only light weapons -- have no artillery or heavy armor.

Your reference to the Palestinians as the enemy also shows that you are seeing through the US media filter -- instead of understanding what is happening.
MHG

[W*GS]

Hamas and Hezbollah are Iran's proxies.

So, gaffney, what sorts of things must Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Saudi Arabia do to help create peace in the ME?

We know you think the Jews merely need to be gotten rid of; do the other players have to do nothing (except launch rockets and send suicide bombers) until that desirable outcome takes place?

[cutthemdown]

Cut,

How would it help Hamas?

Even before this crisis the people of Gaza only had electric power for 6 hours a day -- hence only very limited media/news.

At present -- you can be sure the power is off -- period. Though possibly they turn it on for 1-2 hours a day so people can pump water for drinking.

Its part of Israel's strategy of starving the Palestinans into submision. Barbarism by any other name.

So there is little chance what is seen on the news in Europe/the USA gets back to Gaza to help Hamas. Probably the Israelis are also interfering with cell phone service -- to isolate Gaza.

Beyond this -- even if Hamas had the knowledge -- what could they do? They are armed with only light weapons -- have no artillery or heavy armor.

Your reference to the Palestinians as the enemy also shows that you are seeing through the US media filter -- instead of understanding what is happening.
MHG

You are kidding right? In todays world someone watching in Iran on the news can simply use a cell phone to instantly report what they hear to Hamas fighters.

[cutthemdown]

Hamas and Hezbollah are Iran's proxies.

So, gaffney, what sorts of things must Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Saudi Arabia do to help create peace in the ME?

We know you think the Jews merely need to be gotten rid of; do the other players have to do nothing (except launch rockets and send suicide bombers) until that desirable outcome takes place?

I think all the countries that participated in the war against Israel should have to spend there oil money to build palestinians a decent life. The fact they get no blame for the original attack is mind boggling to me. They decided the UN partition wasn't acceptable and they attacked. That set off a string of events that were all bad for the Palestinians.

Maybe Egypt should have to give them some land? Syria as well?

[alkemical]

Hamas and Hezbollah are Iran's proxies.

So, gaffney, what sorts of things must Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Saudi Arabia do to help create peace in the ME?

We know you think the Jews merely need to be gotten rid of; do the other players have to do nothing (except launch rockets and send suicide bombers) until that desirable outcome takes place?


Hezbollah was created by Israel... just an FYI.

[Paladin]

Huh? Link?

[alkemical]

Israel's actions, let hezbollah be created. It's a reaction from israel's actions.

[mhgaffney]

The Wrong Side of History

Gaza slaughter exposes truth about Zionism

by Mark H. Gaffney

January 11, 2009

The reason given by Israel for its massive assault upon Gaza, which continues as I write, is to halt the Qassam rocket launches into southern Israel staged by Hamas. But even the Israeli military admits that its ongoing operations will not necessarily halt the Qassams. The only way Israel could militarily do this would be to permanently reoccupy all of Gaza: lock it down. But this alternative has no support with the Israeli public. Permanent military reoccupation would expose thousands of Israeli soldiers to continued guerrilla attacks from Hamas. Over time, Israel would take unacceptable losses. Indeed, the Israeli army ended its occupation of southern Lebanon in 2000 for this very reason, because it sustained heavy losses from Hezbollah fighters. This means, quite simply, that there is no military solution to the Qassam rocket attacks.

The Qassam is not a guided missile. It is a crude device, a kind of homemade weapon, something you might fabricate in your garage or basement. The rockets often misfire, are wildly inaccurate, and sometimes injure other Palestinians. In fact, from a military standpoint the Qassam is a nearly useless weapon. Over a period of years the Qassams have killed only a handful of Israelis. So, why do the Palestinians lob useless weapons at Israel? It is an important question, and one the western press has not honestly addressed.

The answer is that the Qassams have become a symbol of Palestinian resolve. The launches show defiance at Israel’s siege of Gaza, which has continued over many years and which greatly intensified after Hamas swept to victory in the 2006 Palestinian elections. At the time, the Israeli government was incensed that its preferred candidate, Fatah chief Abbas, went down to defeat. Among Palestinians Abbas is widely regarded as an Israeli collaborator.

Israel’s Blockade of Gaza

By most accounts, the 2006 election was a fair one. Yet, Israel’s leaders refused to accept the outcome. This is strange and repugnant, given Israel’s reputation as a democracy. But evidently Israel (and the US) apply a double standard when it comes to Arabs. In any event, Israel reacted by imprisoning and even assassinating the elected Hamas officials. Israel also collectively punished the people of Gaza by curtailing all disbursements of Palestinian taxes for public services. As a result, civil servants in Gaza, including local police, worked without pay for many months. Why did Israel withhold these civil funds? Obviously, to disrupt Palestinian society and foment chaos by undermining law and order. Israel also tightened its military blockade. Israel controls the border crossings into Gaza and for years had arbitrarily blocked shipments of food, fuel, medicines, and other essential commodities from entering. By one report, even shoes and clothing are among the forbidden goods.

Israel’s decision to intensify its blockade after the Hamas victory caused great suffering. What remained of the Gaza economy collapsed and many Palestinians became destitute. For the first time malnutrition became a serious issue. Most Gaza residents became dependent on humanitarian assistance, and many now live just one or two meals away from starvation. Indeed, this was the plan: to starve the people of Gaza into submission. The Palestinians refused to be broken, however. Hence the Qassams.

Collective punishment is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. In fact, Israel’s siege was a belligerent act of war. But the western press, including the US media, failed to report it honestly and now they blame the victims. The Palestinians, we are told, are responsible for Israel’s attacks upon them because of the Qassams. Of course, due to the media filter the average American probably has never heard of the siege, and doesn’t even know it happened.

If the goal were truly to end the Qassam rocket attacks, Israel could have done so, at any time, simply by sitting down and negotiating with Hamas. Such is the view of Neve Gordon, chair of political science at Ben Gurion University. Professor Gordon has been following the Gaza situation for years from Beersheba, located just down the road, and he even authored a book upon the subject. His analysis is undoubtedly correct. But evidently this is too simple for Israel’s leaders, who deem Hamas an unsuitable negotiating partner.

In fact, Israel’s military operation in Gaza probably has as much to do with political expedience as halting the Qassams. Israel’s leaders have resorted to violence in the past for temporary political gain: to boost their standing with voters; and the present Gaza offensive appears to be another case. It was in the planning for months and probably became inevitable after far-right Likud candidate Benjamin Netanyahu moved ahead in the polls. With Prime Minister Olmert’s Kadima party facing a tough uphill fight in the upcoming February 2009 elections, Olmert no doubt hoped to recoup Kadima’s chances by showing toughness. It is telling that Israeli voters will choose between the right and the far-right, another inconvenient truth ignored by the western press, which sees only Arab extremism.

For the record, I do not support the firing of Qassam rockets by Hamas into Israel. It is wrong. But on a scale of violence it is a mere pin-prick compared with the wholesale terror being unleashed against the Palestinians, who are almost defenseless. A comparison of the casualty figures shows that 99% of the violence is being directed at the Palestinians; and the numbers do not lie. Unfortunately, due to the media filter their significance has been lost. The US media always portrays Israel in the best possible light and the Palestinians in the worst. It is a formula that distorts real events beyond recognition. As a result, most Americans do not understand what is happening.

The Critical US Role

Indeed, it is remarkable that even though the US Senate just voted unanimous support for Israel many Americans probably still think the United States is not directly involved in the Gaza violence. Nothing could be further from the truth. The US is deeply involved.

On December 28th, the US government used its UN Security Council veto to block the international community from ending the bloodshed. From that point the US was officially on record: openly supporting Israel’s attacks. But US support long predates the recent crisis. Israel's refusal to negotiate with Hamas was only possible because of US diplomatic and military support dating back over many years. The US has used its UN veto on forty occasions, spanning almost four decades, to shield Israel from accountability. But for this the UN would have intervened to resolve the conflict, long ago. In which case Hamas would never have come into existence and there would be peace in Palestine, today.

US military assistance is also crucial. Israel is slaughtering the people of Gaza with US-made F-16s, US-made helicopter gun ships, and US-made bombs/ammunition. Other US-made equipment includes enormous Caterpillar bulldozers which the Israeli army uses to flatten Palestinian homes, often arbitrarily, even entire neighborhoods. During Ariel Sharon’s 2002 offensive in the West Bank these bulldozers were used to level wide swathes of urban real estate in Jenin and other towns. No doubt, the dozers are being put to similar use in Gaza as I write.

Most of the violence directed at the Palestinians is being kept from American eyes. Israel has barred the western press from Gaza because what is happening cannot stand the light of day. But the truth is reaching the world anyway via the Arab press, which is covering the attacks in graphic detail. Although Americans are not seeing the grisly reality, elsewhere in the world people are watching the uncut unedited version of events, including gruesome videos of dead children, body parts, smoking ruins and starving refugees. Surely the world is no less aghast by the mendacity of America’s political leaders, who continue to mouth transparent lies about Israel defending itself when the whole world can plainly see that Israel is engaging in near-genocidal attacks against a civilian population.

To describe all of this as a public relations disaster for the US fails to capture the reality. The international community was already alienated from Washington because of President George W. Bush’s self-proclaimed right to treat the world as a US free-fire zone. Continuing US support for Israel’s state terrorism is like throwing gas on this fire, and the temperature is rising.

The nature of Zionism

But the slaughter of more than 800 Palestinians, as I write, in addition to more than 3,000 injured, has had one positive effect: It has brought the deeper issue, the nature of Zionism, into sharper focus. The question that Americans should be asking is how 1.4 million Palestinians came to be crowded into Gaza in the first place. After all, the length and breadth of Israel/Palestine is the homeland of these Palestinians, no less than the home of the Jews. Both peoples have an equal claim to the land. Why, then, are Israelis free to fulfill their dreams and lives in the greater part of Palestine, I should add, a right they take for granted, while these 1.4 million Arabs are confined to a tiny coastal Gaza strip that is essentially a prison? Some aptly compare it to the Warsaw ghetto of World War II.

The answer is that these Arabs are unwanted people. The Israeli government regards them as surplus humanity. They are the descendants of the original flood of at least 700,000 Palestinian refugees ethnically cleansed by Israel during its 1948 war of independence. The shocking fact is that these Arabs remain incarcerated in Gaza today for the same reason they were driven from their homes in the first place. In Israel this is euphemistically referred to as the "demographic problem," a polite way of saying that in 1948 the Palestinians stood squarely in the path of the Zionist plan to settle all of Palestine with Jews. For this reason they had to be made to disappear. This is why the Palestinians were herded into refugee camps at that time and it is why they continue to be incarcerated in Gaza today. Israel will not incorporate them because their sheer numbers would pollute the ethnic/racial purity of the Jewish state.

This is the deeper issue, and it brings to mind the Apartheid "solution" cooked up by the racists in South Africa, where unwanted blacks were segregated into separate Bantustans to keep them out of sight (and out of mind) of the white minority rulers. Fortunately, the people of South African dismantled their Apartheid system years ago. But it survives today in Israel/Palestine in an even more pernicious form. In fact, Israel is probably the last of the settler colonies that were common during the heyday of colonialism, in the 18-19th centuries, when Europeans lorded over the rest of humanity. Britain, for example, financed its industrial revolution with wealth stolen from India, at the time the jewel in the British crown. Nor was that stolen wealth ever repaid.

My point is that in 2009 this hierarchical way of organizing society is far out of step with present-day standards of morality and justice. Uncritical US support for Israeli-style Apartheid has thus placed the United States on the wrong side of history, a stark reality that ought to be a source of concern, indeed, of alarm, for each and every American. At issue is the racist nature of the Zionist enterprise, and it’s long past time that we call the thing by its true name.


Mark H. Gaffney’s first book was a pioneering study of Israel’s nuclear weapons program. His latest, The 9/11 Mystery Plane, explores whether 9/11 was an inside job. Visit his web site at www.the911mysteryplane.com Mark can be reached for comment at markhgaffney@earthlink.net

[baja]

A simple question;

Why are the Jews hated & persecuted where ever they are found, they were persecuted in Russia, they were persecuted in Germany, they were hated in early America, they were persecuted in Germany and they are deeply hated by their neighboring nations currently.

Why does this one group of people become so despised where ever they go.

[Rigs11]

A simple question;

Why are the Jews hated & persecuted where ever they are found, they were persecuted in Russia, they were persecuted in Germany, they were hated in early America, they were persecuted in Germany and they are deeply hated by their neighboring nations currently.

Why does this one group of people become so despised where ever they go.

Arrogant. Tyhey are allowed to have nukes and no else can. This also creates hate towards the us for supplying them with those weapons.

[baja]

I'm sure that's a big part but not the whole story what about the other situations

[Paladin]

They had nukes while they were in Russia? In Germany? Does the UN know about this? I mean, crikey, this changes everything. The Jews had nukes IN RUSSIA you say? Damm. Maybe I misunderstand. but your post was a bit .......inane....or whatever........

Note: I don't give a rats arse about what happened three thousand years ago, nor even in 1948. Don't give a whip. What is happening now is the result of those Hamas bustards shooting rockets at Israeli citizens. Fug it. Take the bustards out.

[baja]

So if some outside agitators came in to your neighborhood and started to shoot at the airplanes overhead (for example) and the authorities could not find them because they blended in with the other people in the neighborhood than you're good with wiping out your neighborhood. Might kill a few friends and family but the problem was solved so your good with that right?

[baja]

They had nukes while they were in Russia? In Germany? Does the UN know about this? I mean, crikey, this changes everything. The Jews had nukes IN RUSSIA you say? Damm. Maybe I misunderstand. but your post was a bit .......inane....or whatever........

Note: I don't give a rats arse about what happened three thousand years ago, nor even in 1948. Don't give a whip. What is happening now is the result of those Hamas bustards shooting rockets at Israeli citizens. Fug it. Take the bustards out.

They're killing kids but maybe that doesn't count because they don't look like you, is that it?

[TDmvp]

They're killing kids but maybe that doesn't count because they don't look like you, is that it?

God you are a moron , I really wish you would get a hobby .
Try self asphyxiation.

Maybe we will both get lucky .

[baja]

Right!

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=50623759&albumID=754408&imageID=2990973#a=754408&i=2890771

[mhgaffney]

It may be that the Palestinians who are being killed are none other than the descendants of the original Jews who lived in Palestine!

If so -- then Israeli Jews are killing their own kin -- former Jews.

You might recall I suggested this already. Well I just learned about a new book published in Israel last October -- now a best seller in Israel.

This is mind boggling. MHG

October 9, 2008

Israeli Bestseller Breaks National Taboo

Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian
by Jonathan Cook

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=13569

No one is more surprised than Shlomo Sand that his latest academic work has spent 19 weeks on Israel's bestseller list – and that success has come to the history professor despite his book challenging Israel's biggest taboo.

Dr. Sand argues that the idea of a Jewish nation – whose need for a safe haven was originally used to justify the founding of the state of Israel – is a myth invented little more than a century ago.

An expert on European history at Tel Aviv University, Dr. Sand drew on extensive historical and archaeological research to support not only this claim but several more – all equally controversial.

In addition, he argues that the Jews were never exiled from the Holy Land, that most of today's Jews have no historical connection to the land called Israel and that the only political solution to the country's conflict with the Palestinians is to abolish the Jewish state.

The success of When and How Was the Jewish People Invented? looks likely to be repeated around the world. A French edition, launched last month, is selling so fast that it has already had three print runs.

Translations are under way into a dozen languages, including Arabic and English. But he predicted a rough ride from the pro-Israel lobby when the book is launched by his English publisher, Verso, in the United States next year.

In contrast, he said Israelis had been, if not exactly supportive, at least curious about his argument. Tom Segev, one of the country's leading journalists, has called the book "fascinating and challenging."

Surprisingly, Dr. Sand said, most of his academic colleagues in Israel have shied away from tackling his arguments. One exception is Israel Bartal, a professor of Jewish history at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Writing in Haaretz, the Israeli daily newspaper, Dr. Bartal made little effort to rebut Dr. Sand's claims. He dedicated much of his article instead to defending his profession, suggesting that Israeli historians were not as ignorant about the invented nature of Jewish history as Dr. Sand contends.

The idea for the book came to him many years ago, Dr. Sand said, but he waited until recently to start working on it. "I cannot claim to be particularly courageous in publishing the book now," he said. "I waited until I was a full professor. There is a price to be paid in Israeli academia for expressing views of this sort."

Dr. Sand's main argument is that until little more than a century ago, Jews thought of themselves as Jews only because they shared a common religion. At the turn of the 20th century, he said, Zionist Jews challenged this idea and started creating a national history by inventing the idea that Jews existed as a people separate from their religion.

Equally, the modern Zionist idea of Jews being obligated to return from exile to the Promised Land was entirely alien to Judaism, he added.

"Zionism changed the idea of Jerusalem. Before, the holy places were seen as places to long for, not to be lived in. For 2,000 years Jews stayed away from Jerusalem not because they could not return but because their religion forbade them from returning until the messiah came."

The biggest surprise during his research came when he started looking at the archaeological evidence from the biblical era.

"I was not raised as a Zionist, but like all other Israelis I took it for granted that the Jews were a people living in Judea and that they were exiled by the Romans in 70AD.

"But once I started looking at the evidence, I discovered that the kingdoms of David and Solomon were legends.

"Similarly with the exile. In fact, you can't explain Jewishness without exile. But when I started to look for history books describing the events of this exile, I couldn't find any. Not one.

"That was because the Romans did not exile people. In fact, Jews in Palestine were overwhelming peasants and all the evidence suggests they stayed on their lands."

Instead, he believes an alternative theory is more plausible: the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. "Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God."

So if there was no exile, how is it that so many Jews ended up scattered around the globe before the modern state of Israel began encouraging them to "return"?

Dr. Sand said that, in the centuries immediately preceding and following the Christian era, Judaism was a proselytizing religion, desperate for converts. "This is mentioned in the Roman literature of the time."

Jews traveled to other regions seeking converts, particularly in Yemen and among the Berber tribes of North Africa. Centuries later, the people of the Khazar kingdom in what is today south Russia, would convert en masse to Judaism, becoming the genesis of the Ashkenazi Jews of central and eastern Europe.

Dr. Sand pointed to the strange state of denial in which most Israelis live, noting that papers offered extensive coverage recently to the discovery of the capital of the Khazar kingdom next to the Caspian Sea.

Ynet, the website of Israel's most popular newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth, headlined the story: "Russian archaeologists find long-lost Jewish capital." And yet none of the papers, he added, had considered the significance of this find to standard accounts of Jewish history.

One further question is prompted by Dr. Sand's account, as he himself notes: if most Jews never left the Holy Land, what became of them?

"It is not taught in Israeli schools but most of the early Zionist leaders, including David Ben Gurion [Israel's first prime minister], believed that the Palestinians were the descendants of the area's original Jews. They believed the Jews had later converted to Islam."

Dr. Sand attributed his colleagues' reticence to engage with him to an implicit acknowledgement by many that the whole edifice of "Jewish history" taught at Israeli universities is built like a house of cards.

The problem with the teaching of history in Israel, Dr. Sand said, dates to a decision in the 1930s to separate history into two disciplines: general history and Jewish history. Jewish history was assumed to need its own field of study because Jewish experience was considered unique.

"There's no Jewish department of politics or sociology at the universities. Only history is taught in this way, and it has allowed specialists in Jewish history to live in a very insular and conservative world where they are not touched by modern developments in historical research.

"I've been criticized in Israel for writing about Jewish history when European history is my specialty. But a book like this needed a historian who is familiar with the standard concepts of historical inquiry used by academia in the rest of the world."

[TDmvp]

Right!

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=50623759&albumID=754408&imageID=2990973#a=754408&i=2890771


you can't insert links like that Baja ... they don't show if you wrap the image thingy around them like you did ...... only way to see it is there is to quote you.

that link tho to my myspace pics is Bill Hicks a hero of mine, .... You may know who he is , very left stand up comic i love who passed away in the 90's.

and i think we talked about this somewhere else but there is 0 pics of me on the web . If you was trying to link to that to be discouraging in some way or to prove some sorta point ...





http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=50623759&albumID=754408&imageID=2990973#a=754408&i=2890771

[baja]

You're just too smart for me.

[Paladin]

Damm straight

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/israeli-w-lessons.jpg

[Hotrod]

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd59/squeemish/Motivational%20posters/JewJitsu.jpg