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Taco John
12-29-2008, 08:50 AM
...please. We know you want to get rid of Mike Shanahan, so go ahead and get it out of your system now. Pretty soon, though, it's going to be clear that Shanahan is going nowhere, and the focus will no longer be on whether Shanahan should be here or not, but what happens next.

So get it out now, but please - when that focus shifts to reality, lets keep the discussion on the moves the Broncos are making, and not the man, and have a productive offseason of discussion.

Rohirrim
12-29-2008, 08:52 AM
That's like telling a drunk, "We'll discuss everything BUT your drinking." ;D

telluride
12-29-2008, 08:53 AM
I don't hate Shanahan. I'm just tired of him. And I think the team would improve by making a change.

That's not hate, or denial, or venting. Just a simple observation.

Ironlung
12-29-2008, 08:55 AM
...please. We know you want to get rid of Mike Shanahan, so go ahead and get it out of your system now. Pretty soon, though, it's going to be clear that Shanahan is going nowhere, and the focus will no longer be on whether Shanahan should be here or not, but what happens next.

So get it out now, but please - when that focus shifts to reality, lets keep the discussion on the moves the Broncos are making, and not the man, and have a productive offseason of discussion.

You need to get, thinking everything is fine, out of your system.

Broncoman13
12-29-2008, 08:55 AM
Shanny has lost it. This was his proving year remember?? Playoffs or bust. No more excuses, he put "his" man in place as Bates was his final scape goat.

Three game lead with three games remaining... worst collapse in HISTORY and you still support Shanahan? To make matters worse he doesn't want to rid himself of his mistake! This sucks!

Rigs11
12-29-2008, 08:56 AM
with shanny at the helm expect another year of crap defense and special teams, and stale play calling on offense.looking forward to 2009.....

Gort
12-29-2008, 08:58 AM
i don't hate him. i just think that the game has perhaps passed him by. you need to be around new ideas or you get stale in this league. i think he's been surrounded by yes men for so long, he's not being exposed to anything truly innovative going on in the league and the good young assistant coaches coming into the league have not been spending any time in Denver.

my proof... the old shanny could gameplan with the best of them. you gave him 2 weeks to prepare for a tough opponent and he could find a way to beat that opponent. i haven't seen that sort of game planning from him and his staff for at least 6 years now. e.g., he had 2 weeks this season to prepare for Miami and the Broncos showed up wholly unprepared for what Miami showed them. that tells me he either doesn't have an answer for anything new the other team might show him, or can't come up with anything new to show the other team, or both.

Broncoman13
12-29-2008, 08:58 AM
I don't hate Shanahan. I'm just tired of him. And I think the team would improve by making a change.

That's not hate, or denial, or venting. Just a simple observation.


Realistic. I've been thinking the same thing for some time. I would say 7 out of every 10 Bronco fans I know are tire of Shanny. But, most are in the same, "who is better" mindset. Nobody is going to be better than Shanny, but this team needs a change.

Taco John
12-29-2008, 08:58 AM
That's it. Have a good cry. Get it all out...

Taco John
12-29-2008, 09:00 AM
I would say 7 out of every 10 Bronco fans I know are tire of Shanny.


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75257

oubronco
12-29-2008, 09:00 AM
I personally think one more year like this and Shanny will step down he looks like he doesn,t have the fire or desire to keep endearing this kinda sh*t

Rigs11
12-29-2008, 09:00 AM
Taco you should probably start another thread for shanny supporters so they can use the 2 superbowls that he won 10 years ago as reasons for him staying....

Broncoman13
12-29-2008, 09:01 AM
So what is your breaking point TJ? Is the worst collapse in history not bothering you? Three game lead with three games to go and NORV TURNER outcoaches Shanny. How does that not affect you?

Taco John
12-29-2008, 09:01 AM
That's like telling a drunk, "We'll discuss everything BUT your drinking." ;D



I'm not saying don't discuss it. I'm saying *do* discuss it. But at some point in time, that discussion is going to be irrelevant because Bowlen won't have taken action. I'm hoping that at that point, we can move on from "we should fire Shanahan" to "let's look at the moves this team is/isn't making.

theAPAOps5
12-29-2008, 09:01 AM
Shanny has lost it. This was his proving year remember?? Playoffs or bust. No more excuses, he put "his" man in place as Bates was his final scape goat.

Three game lead with three games remaining... worst collapse in HISTORY and you still support Shanahan? To make matters worse he doesn't want to rid himself of his mistake! This sucks!

While I can't defend the man in already saying he will retain Sloyuck the 3 game collapse is actually defensible. 17 plaers on the IR 7 backs and losing Hillis just killed it. But the problem lies before the collapse in the games they threw away.

I don't hate Shanahan and will support him as he will stay but man this game is getting tired.

Sorry TJ its going to be a long offseason. I think it will serve many of us well to take a break from this place. Because nothing will stop the likes of bandwagon wolf from just plain trolling.

Broncoman13
12-29-2008, 09:02 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75257

Do a new one after tanking the season and sticking with Slowick!

Broncoman13
12-29-2008, 09:05 AM
While I can't defend the man in already saying he will retain Sloyuck the 3 game collapse is actually defensible. 17 plaers on the IR 7 backs and losing Hillis just killed it. But the problem lies before the collapse in the games they threw away.

I don't hate Shanahan and will support him as he will stay but man this game is getting tired.

Sorry TJ its going to be a long offseason. I think it will serve many of us well to take a break from this place. Because nothing will stop the likes of bandwagon wolf from just plain trolling.

I don't hate Shanny either. In fact I think he's a helluva coach. But something isn't right with him. Our teams have not looked very good lately. To make matters worse, Bowlen has now restricted his spending. It's basically, hey your the best coach now go beat teams with superior talent b/c you're a great coach... and he can't do it!

Taco John
12-29-2008, 09:06 AM
So what is your breaking point TJ? Is the worst collapse in history not bothering you? Three game lead with three games to go and NORV TURNER outcoaches Shanny. How does that not affect you?


Whatever my breaking point is, this isn't it. I see a team with a bright future ahead of it, being built like it should have been built years ago. I'm frustrated like everyone else, but I can live with that frustration knowing that we've got a powerhouse offense in the making, and at this point we can start putting the bulk of our focus on building a defense.

If we were still in "plug and play" mode, I might feel as hopeless as some of you do. But I don't feel hopeless at all. I feel like we're on the verge of having a powerhouse team that will remain in contention for a good long time.

Broncoman13
12-29-2008, 09:09 AM
Whatever my breaking point is, this isn't it. I see a team with a bright future ahead of it, being built like it should have been built years ago. I'm frustrated like everyone else, but I can live with that frustration knowing that we've got a powerhouse offense in the making, and at this point we can start putting the bulk of our focus on building a defense.

If we were still in "plug and play" mode, I might feel as hopeless as some of you do. But I don't feel hopeless at all. I feel like we're on the verge of having a powerhouse team that will remain in contention for a good long time.


Offensively I agree. On defense, I've seen nothing since Shanny has been here to give me any confidence that we may turn it around. Do tell, what good is a dominant offense that has to score 31 points per game with only 3 or 4 possessions per half b/c the other team has the ball for 40 minutes per game!!?? How do you feel about keeping Slowick?

Rabb
12-29-2008, 09:10 AM
I don't hate Shanny at all, what I do hate is watching the Broncos play the role of the woman in a Lifetime special

beaten and raped and afraid to make a change

Broncoman13
12-29-2008, 09:11 AM
Whatever my breaking point is, this isn't it. I see a team with a bright future ahead of it, being built like it should have been built years ago. I'm frustrated like everyone else, but I can live with that frustration knowing that we've got a powerhouse offense in the making, and at this point we can start putting the bulk of our focus on building a defense.

If we were still in "plug and play" mode, I might feel as hopeless as some of you do. But I don't feel hopeless at all. I feel like we're on the verge of having a powerhouse team that will remain in contention for a good long time.

Keeping Slowick is my breaking point. Get rid of him or demote him and bring in a "real" DC. It's not about a scapegoat, it's about making the wrong choice for the position and fixing it! Keeping Slowick just puts us one more year behind. The bright future you are referring cannot be realized with Slowick as the DC.

BigPlayShay
12-29-2008, 09:16 AM
I am going to digest the offseason and draft before I choose a side. I am still leaning on my faith in Shanahan as I am convinced he is in a rebuild mode regardless of how this season turned out. I am certain he knew we would not be going very far even if we made the playoffs.

How would the "Shanny must go" crowd react if we signed a Haynesworht or Peppers and drafted Ray Maualuga? Just curious.

Jens1893
12-29-2008, 09:17 AM
Keeping Slowick is my breaking point. Get rid of him or demote him and bring in a "real" DC. It's not about a scapegoat, it's about making the wrong choice for the position and fixing it! Keeping Slowick just puts us one more year behind. The bright future you are referring cannot be realized with Slowick as the DC.

The sad thing about Slowik is that heīs probably the one benefitting from Shanahanīs decision to fire one DC after another. If Slowik stays in charge of the defense it will be because they donīt want to fire yet another DC. They finally do have some patience, but they have patience with the wrong guy.

baja
12-29-2008, 09:18 AM
That's it. Have a good cry. Get it all out...

There is a certain smugness that is born of denial that is irritating as hell to those of us that do not share that denial.

NFLBRONCO
12-29-2008, 09:19 AM
I am going to digest the offseason and draft before I choose a side. I am still leaning on my faith in Shanahan as I am convinced he is in a rebuild mode regardless of how this season turned out. I am certain he knew we would not be going very far even if we made the playoffs.

How would the "Shanny must go" crowd react if we signed a Haynesworht or Peppers and drafted Ray Maualuga? Just curious.

I would lay off Shanny must go crowd if we signed and drafted those guys but. I'm expecting more Boss Bailey type moves.

Gort
12-29-2008, 09:20 AM
for all the Shanny nuthuggers out there, please explain to me this... if shanny REALLY and TRULY is rebuilding as you all claim he is, and which is why you are willing to suffer through more seasons of mediocrity, then why did he promise to make the playoffs this year? you can't do both. you can't be rebuilding for the future while also expecting to win now, right? so, somebody is wrong. either Shanny misspoke about the playoffs, or he doesn't see the team in a rebuilding mode.

2KBack
12-29-2008, 09:20 AM
Keeping Slowick is my breaking point. Get rid of him or demote him and bring in a "real" DC. It's not about a scapegoat, it's about making the wrong choice for the position and fixing it! Keeping Slowick just puts us one more year behind. The bright future you are referring cannot be realized with Slowick as the DC.

This is where I'm at right now. Shanahan can be pretty ruthless with players that he feels aren't quite cutting it, he needs to be even more ruthless with coaches who fail in a historical mannor.

His staff of old buddies has bugged me for years now, but I've let it pass because he really is a great football coach. My good faith is running thin now, and he gets about one more season to show that he hasn't competely lost touch.

Rohirrim
12-29-2008, 09:20 AM
I'm not saying don't discuss it. I'm saying *do* discuss it. But at some point in time, that discussion is going to be irrelevant because Bowlen won't have taken action. I'm hoping that at that point, we can move on from "we should fire Shanahan" to "let's look at the moves this team is/isn't making.

They used to say that about King Carl in KC as well. At some point in time, the seats at Mile High will look the same as they're looking at Arrowhead this year. Believe me, at that point, Bowlen will make a change.

Broncoman13
12-29-2008, 09:22 AM
I am going to digest the offseason and draft before I choose a side. I am still leaning on my faith in Shanahan as I am convinced he is in a rebuild mode regardless of how this season turned out. I am certain he knew we would not be going very far even if we made the playoffs.

How would the "Shanny must go" crowd react if we signed a Haynesworht or Peppers and drafted Ray Maualuga? Just curious.

With Slowick's schemes in playing the CBs 10 yards off on 3rd and 5 what good is Julius Peppers AND Albert Haynesworth going to do? Don't know if you notices or not but three step drops were the norm against us. Julius Peppers, Reggie White, Jason Taylor, it doesn't matter who the DE is, with a three step drop and quick outs/slants the routes of choice against our D we CANNOT get pressure before the ball is out of the QB's hands. EVEN WHEN WE BLITZED the CBs were several yards off. What good is a blitz if the QB can just throw the quick slant? Amazing people don't see this.

Rabb
12-29-2008, 09:23 AM
I am going to digest the offseason and draft before I choose a side. I am still leaning on my faith in Shanahan as I am convinced he is in a rebuild mode regardless of how this season turned out. I am certain he knew we would not be going very far even if we made the playoffs.

How would the "Shanny must go" crowd react if we signed a Haynesworht or Peppers and drafted Ray Maualuga? Just curious.

to take that a step further, what would people say about Slowik?

if he had pro-bowl players to bail out and cover up his ****ty schemes with their talent that is

unless the defensive mindset changes, I don't care if we have 11 Champ Bailey type players, they will be in bad spots

we need a new strength and conditioning guy also, way too many injuries that (just my opinion) probably were all about preparation

TonyR
12-29-2008, 09:23 AM
I feel like we're on the verge of having a powerhouse team that will remain in contention for a good long time.

This is foundation of the problem. This team is woefully mediocre and yet some people still think we're close to being a powerhouse. I don't know where they come up with this. We were outscored by 78 points this season. That's a LONG way from being a powerhouse.

Man-Goblin
12-29-2008, 09:23 AM
I am officially on the fence after the Slowik annnouncement. I simply can't justify bringing him back.

Then I think of the alternatives....

Say Shanny steps down this afternoon...what then?

Bowlen has to find a GM, first of all. Does he break the bank for a shot at convincing Scott Paoli or Cowher (who's not coming west anyway) to be the guy? Probably not. For a GM, you end up with an underling from an already successfull GM, or the most likely scenario is the Goodmans get promoted. Yay.

So, you've most likely got the same guys who are drafting for you now, and Bowlen, deciding who the next coach will be. I don't think Bowlen is stupid enough to go after a retread like a Dennis Greene (although a Fassel hire would scare me) or a college coach.

Most likely you've got the Goodmans and Bowlen sifting through current position coaches and coordinators hoping they hit the Tomlin/Harbaugh jackpot, and not the Morningweig/Cameron whammy. Then when the new guy is found, you obviously fire the whole defensive staff and try to retain Turner/Dennison/Bates on the offense.

What you're left with is something less than what I think we have with Shanahan, so I guess I'm content with where we're at. I guess....

bowtown
12-29-2008, 09:23 AM
for all the Shanny nuthuggers out there, please explain to me this... if shanny REALLY and TRULY is rebuilding as you all claim he is, and which is why you are willing to suffer through more seasons of mediocrity, then why did he promise to make the playoffs this year? you can't do both. you can't be rebuilding for the future while also expecting to win now, right? so, somebody is wrong. either Shanny misspoke about the playoffs, or he doesn't see the team in a rebuilding mode.

Actually Shanahan, promised to make the playoffs this year IF the team stayed relatively healthy. Doesn't sound to me like he misspoke at all, just that you misquoted him.

TonyR
12-29-2008, 09:27 AM
Then I think of the alternatives....

Say Shanny steps down this afternoon...what then?


You can't be so scared of change. If you can't embrace change and moving forward then you can NEVER succeed. Miami gutted the ENTIRE organization last offseason and went from 1-15 to 11-5. Atlanta did a similar overhaul and went from 4-12 to 11-5. Are you saying Bowlen can't make good decisions like those team's ownership? I trust that he can, but fear he's stuck in the same rut your mindset suggests you are.

Gort
12-29-2008, 09:27 AM
Actually Shanahan, promised to make the playoffs this year IF the team stayed relatively healthy. Doesn't sound to me like he misspoke at all, just that you misquoted him.

fine, that proves my point. Shanny doesn't see the team as being in a rebuilding mode. which is scary considering how much rebuilding the D needs.

2KBack
12-29-2008, 09:28 AM
I am officially on the fence after the Slowik annnouncement. I simply can't justify bringing him back.

Then I think of the alternatives....

Say Shanny steps down this afternoon...what then?

Bowlen has to find a GM, first of all. Does he break the bank for a shot at convincing Scott Paoli or Cowher (who's not coming west anyway) to be the guy? Probably not. For a GM, you end up with an underling from an already successfull GM, or the most likely scenario is the Goodmans get promoted. Yay.

So, you've most likely got the same guys who are drafting for you now, and Bowlen, deciding who the next coach will be. I don't think Bowlen is stupid enough to go after a retread like a Dennis Greene (although a Fassel hire would scare me) or a college coach.

Most likely you've got the Goodmans and Bowlen sifting through current position coaches and coordinators hoping they hit the Tomlin/Harbaugh jackpot, and not the Morningweig/Cameron whammy. Then when the new guy is found, you obviously fire the whole defensive staff and try to retain Turner/Dennison/Bates on the offense.

What you're left with is something less than what I think we have with Shanahan, so I guess I'm content with where we're at. I guess....

Shanahan would probably rather walk, but it might be worth seeing if he'll give up some of that damn power. When Mike Holmgren was demoted in seattle to just Head Coach, all of a sudden he got back to the superbowl. It might be too late for that though. One mind rules all in Dove Valley, which means change isn't coming.

ScottXray
12-29-2008, 09:28 AM
Shanahans absolute inability to get better on Defense either with players or coaches, is what concerns me. In addition he relies absolutely too much on one or two players a game.

Frankly, as long as he is the main personnel person we will NEVER get better or better enough to go anywhere in the playoffs. How can he have not seen that the defensive scheme was terrible?

It won't matter that we have a powerful Offense, if we can't get the ball or have to score a TD on every possession just to stay EVEN with the Chiefs , or Raiders in a game. That is a Shanahan defense , especially in the second half of seasons.

Take away our run game (either through injury or one on one ) and he expects his QB to take over a game and win it single handed. Throw 50 or 60 times. That is a Shanahan offense..

Injuries have had an enormous impact this year of courese....but injuries happen EVERY year, to all teams. If Cutler goes down do you think we go better than 3-13?

He is living on borrowed time and a legacy of a team whos last player retired this year, and he should have been gone already. At least he will leave a good offensive core for someone who knows how to develope them for the future.
I don't think Shanahan knows where to go from here. He is staying as coach because he has such a huge ego he can't overcome. The decision to retain Slowik says it all.

bowtown
12-29-2008, 09:31 AM
fine, that proves my point. Shanny doesn't see the team as being in a rebuilding mode. which is scary considering how much rebuilding the D needs.

Do you believe that this team would still have missed the playoffs if we had not had all the injuries we had this year? I don't, not for a second. I'm not saying we would have gone to the Superbowl but, if our RBs stay healthy and Champ doesn't get hurt, I'm pretty sure we would have won at least one of those games along the way.

ScottXray
12-29-2008, 09:32 AM
I am officially on the fence after the Slowik annnouncement. I simply can't justify bringing him back.

Then I think of the alternatives....

Say Shanny steps down this afternoon...what then?

Bowlen has to find a GM, first of all. Does he break the bank for a shot at convincing Scott Paoli or Cowher (who's not coming west anyway) to be the guy? Probably not. For a GM, you end up with an underling from an already successfull GM, or the most likely scenario is the Goodmans get promoted. Yay.

So, you've most likely got the same guys who are drafting for you now, and Bowlen, deciding who the next coach will be. I don't think Bowlen is stupid enough to go after a retread like a Dennis Greene (although a Fassel hire would scare me) or a college coach.

Most likely you've got the Goodmans and Bowlen sifting through current position coaches and coordinators hoping they hit the Tomlin/Harbaugh jackpot, and not the Morningweig/Cameron whammy. Then when the new guy is found, you obviously fire the whole defensive staff and try to retain Turner/Dennison/Bates on the offense.

What you're left with is something less than what I think we have with Shanahan, so I guess I'm content with where we're at. I guess....

I don't know if he would come west but Parcells is able to opt out of his contract with Miami becasue the owner is selling the team. (contract clause).

How about that...(assuming bowlen would cough up the dough...big IF)?

Man-Goblin
12-29-2008, 09:34 AM
Shanahan would probably rather walk, but it might be worth seeing if he'll give up some of that damn power. When Mike Holmgren was demoted in seattle to just Head Coach, all of a sudden he got back to the superbowl. It might be too late for that though. One mind rules all in Dove Valley, which means change isn't coming.

The thing is, I don't really have a problem with the power structure right now because he puts a lot of weight, probably ALL of the weight, on the scouting information provided by his staff. I don't see Shanahan sitting there in the off season pouring ad nausiem over scouting info, attending all star games, and college game tape. That's up to the staff.

My main problem is the delusional endorsement of Slowik and his overall incompetence in finding a D-coordinator he can work well with.

Gort
12-29-2008, 09:38 AM
Do you believe that this team would still have missed the playoffs if we had not had all the injuries we had this year? I don't, not for a second. I'm not saying we would have gone to the Superbowl but, if our RBs stay healthy and Champ doesn't get hurt, I'm pretty sure we would have won at least one of those games along the way.

i wanted to see them finish 10-6. i really really did. but this team was terrible on defense and special teams. the fact is they got a couple lucky wins and suffered a couple unlucky losses, so 8-8 is probably a true reflection of where they are. if Sandy Eggo hadn't been so awful as well (thanks Norv), there's no way an 8-8 Broncos team even sniffs at the playoffs. even going 10-6 would not have been enough for a wildcard if Sandy Eggo had lived up to their expectations and won 11, 12, or 13 games. Shanny had to expect that kind of season from SD when he made his prediction. the only reason his prediction nearly came true was because of SD's 4-8 start.

Popps
12-29-2008, 09:40 AM
I don't hate Shanny at all, what I do hate is watching the Broncos play the role of the woman in a Lifetime special

beaten and raped and afraid to make a change

:spit:

O.K... not the most conventional analogy, but it works.

TonyR
12-29-2008, 09:43 AM
There is a certain smugness that is born of denial that is irritating as hell to those of us that do not share that denial.

Yes. And these same people were all phony confident last week leading up to thise game and slamming the people who suggested we were in big trouble. And yet have any of them owned up to how wrong they were about this game? Last I checked we got blown out just like many predicted.

baja
12-29-2008, 09:44 AM
Do you believe that this team would still have missed the playoffs if we had not had all the injuries we had this year? I don't, not for a second. I'm not saying we would have gone to the Superbowl but, if our RBs stay healthy and Champ doesn't get hurt, I'm pretty sure we would have won at least one of those games along the way.

Ya we would have won another game without the injuries and made the playoffs. Big whoop. It's the Defense dummy. We have gotten steadily worse on D and there is no indication that trend is going to change. The Denver Defense is an embarrassment.

Personally with the defense we have I am relieved we did not make the playoff.

Broncomutt
12-29-2008, 09:45 AM
52 points

Taco, you called people gutless wimps for the past week because they moaned and groaned prior to the biggest Den/SD rivalry game...perhaps ever, rather than cheer our team.

And you were right to do so.

The Broncos new what they had to do and they gave up fifty-two points. I'd expect this level of "national disgrace" from a Reeves or Phillips coached team.

But now from Shanny also....?

Time for a change. Shanny is a great offensive mind, but we will never have a championship caliber defense while the current Shanny regime is in place.

bowtown
12-29-2008, 09:46 AM
Ya we would have won another game without the injuries and made the playoffs. Big whoop. It's the Defense dummy. We have gotten steadily worse on D and there is no indication that trend is going to change. The Denver Defense is an embarrassment.

Personally with the defense we have I am relieved we did not make the playoff.

Yes I know it is the defense. Please read the context of my posts and the subsequent posts leading up to it before calling me names.

Spider
12-29-2008, 09:46 AM
That's it. Have a good cry. Get it all out...

LOL

2KBack
12-29-2008, 09:46 AM
The thing is, I don't really have a problem with the power structure right now because he puts a lot of weight, probably ALL of the weight, on the scouting information provided by his staff. I don't see Shanahan sitting there in the off season pouring ad nausiem over scouting info, attending all star games, and college game tape. That's up to the staff.

My main problem is the delusional endorsement of Slowik and his overall incompetence in finding a D-coordinator he can work well with.

It would be nice to know what the relationship really is with his coordinators. Does he allow them a lot of control over their units? If he offers input but the coaches disagree, what is the result? Who decides who's playing, and at what position?

I want to know how much blood of the murdered defense is on Shanahan's hands. The only way I can see any Head coach justifying keeping such an inept DC, is that he was part of the problem himself.

Something has to give, Denver is setting records for ****ty defense. We might as well start breaking out the verticle socks if things remain on this path.

Drastci fundamental changes need to be made to the defensive staff. Those at fault need to be reassigned, retired, or fired. That will include Shanahan pretty soon.

EmpireOrange
12-29-2008, 09:47 AM
I now live in Indy. Where there are no Taco Johns. Everytime I see a post from this guy I think mmmmmmm, crispy tacos and potatoe ole

Traveler
12-29-2008, 09:47 AM
The sad thing about Slowik is that heīs probably the one benefitting from Shanahanīs decision to fire one DC after another. If Slowik stays in charge of the defense it will be because they donīt want to fire yet another DC. They finally do have some patience, but they have patience with the wrong guy.

This actually makes sense in a strange kinda way.

baja
12-29-2008, 09:51 AM
Yes. And these same people were all phony confident last week leading up to thise game and slamming the people who suggested we were in big trouble. And yet have any of them owned up to how wrong they were about this game? Last I checked we got blown out just like many predicted.

I was one of those people, I even offered a bad bet. My feeling was support the team with positive thinking and keep the annalist of what is wrong with this team until we were done for the season. Well here we are done for 08. Now I'm on board with BB fix the broncos phase of things. ;D

HEAV
12-29-2008, 09:52 AM
There is a certain smugness that is born of denial that is irritating as hell to those of us that do not share that denial.


Issac..errr TJ being a smug little school girl when his love interest is being called out for the hack he is....naaahhhhh

We get it TJ Shanny has dirt on Bowlen, he's coach for life, yadydayada. But life isn't forever.

Yes you get to jerk off one more year at everything Shanny say's. But if 09 ends up like 06,07,08... he's done.

Fan's are really starting to take notice... despite what your little homer website tells you. The Broncos community extends past the internet and past the Homer-Mane.

So enjoy Mike's last year.

oubronco
12-29-2008, 09:53 AM
If Shanny is a Mastermind on Offense don't you think he would have some Ideas on how to stop a good offense and couldn't he see this absolutely putrid Defensive schemes in practice before the games are played?

baja
12-29-2008, 09:54 AM
Yes I know it is the defense. Please read the context of my posts and the subsequent posts leading up to it before calling me names.

I meant to put a smily after dummy. ;D

Spider
12-29-2008, 09:54 AM
Whatever my breaking point is, this isn't it. I see a team with a bright future ahead of it, being built like it should have been built years ago. I'm frustrated like everyone else, but I can live with that frustration knowing that we've got a powerhouse offense in the making, and at this point we can start putting the bulk of our focus on building a defense.

If we were still in "plug and play" mode, I might feel as hopeless as some of you do. But I don't feel hopeless at all. I feel like we're on the verge of having a powerhouse team that will remain in contention for a good long time.

I agree , this loss did upset , I was so upset i didnt even pick a fight with cutthemdown in chat,and I love doing that cause he gets squirrily as hell ......it isnt so much that we lost that upset ,it is the way we lost , I dont worry about our offense , it is our defense , we need an Alfred williams type of DE , a kieth Trailor in the middle ...... Cant even tell if our Line backers are any good cause they are caught up in the Wash , our safteys cant read ......but I havent given up hope for next year ;D

Broncoman13
12-29-2008, 09:59 AM
I agree , this loss did upset , I was so upset i didnt even pick a fight with cutthemdown in chat,and I love doing that cause he gets squirrily as hell ......it isnt so much that we lost that upset ,it is the way we lost , I dont worry about our offense , it is our defense , we need an Alfred williams type of DE , a kieth Trailor in the middle ...... Cant even tell if our Line backers are any good cause they are caught up in the Wash , our safteys cant read ......but I havent given up hope for next year ;D

Alfred Williams and Keith Traylor references tell me that you're still stuck in 1998. News flash, Mike Shanahan's teams have won exactly ONE meaningful game since then. ONE!

And I'll ask you the same question, knowing how poorly this defense played, how can you be in favor of a coach that is bringing back the asst. coach that supervised that unit, that scheme, that pathetic excuse for a defense? As much as everyone complained about Bates, statistically it was a better unit!

Popps
12-29-2008, 10:02 AM
If we were still in "plug and play" mode, I might feel as hopeless as some of you do. But I don't feel hopeless at all. I feel like we're on the verge of having a powerhouse team that will remain in contention for a good long time.

It's a strange change of heart, Taco... to say the least. You were the guy moaning and cursing the organization when we were 6-1, or playing in AFC championship games. I remember after a win, people would be enjoying it around here and you would be in wet-blanket-mode, complaining about how it was all useless because we didn't have a top ranked QB.

Well, now we have a top ranked QB and we're in even worse shape. We literally don't have a defense, Taco. We DO NOT have one. We have one aging star who can't stay healthy... and a bunch of no-names. Our offense puts up yards. Great. We can't stop anyone, which has been the problem for years. We're at square 1, defensively... and our special teams pretty much blow, and you're talking about us being a "powerhouse?"

I've long labeled you as a QB-only guy, and for good reason. You defended Griese 'til your death when he was bringing the franchise down.... then railed Plummer when we were winning, and now rally behind Cutler when we're crappy again.

Basically... it seems that you're happy if you approved of the QB to start with, regardless of any results. If we lose... it's fine because you like the QB. If we win, that's not acceptable because you don't?
Takes all kinds, I guess... but that's a rooting strategy I could never quite figure out.

Your weird rooting strategy aside, you can't begrudge people around here for making results-based arguments that deal with factual information, not hope or weird, biased rooting strategies. Some of us fans are just fans and have been through enough with this team to know when things aren't in a good state.

Again, the last period of futility this pronounced for this organization began before most of us were born. We're in a historically awful ten-year run for this franchise and our weakest points are getting weaker every year. It's wonderful that the quarterback fits some sort of twisted rooting strategy you have, but just don't be angry at the more coherent around here who demand real results from the team.

baja
12-29-2008, 10:03 AM
Alfred Williams and Keith Traylor references tell me that you're still stuck in 1998. News flash, Mike Shanahan's teams have won exactly ONE meaningful game since then. ONE!

And I'll ask you the same question, knowing how poorly this defense played, how can you be in favor of a coach that is bringing back the asst. coach that supervised that unit, that scheme, that pathetic excuse for a defense? As much as everyone complained about Bates, statistically it was a better unit!

ya but Bates probably didn't say " Yes Coach Mastermind' as good as Slowik does...

Garcia Bronco
12-29-2008, 10:03 AM
Alfred Williams and Keith Traylor references tell me that you're still stuck in 1998. News flash, Mike Shanahan's teams have won exactly ONE meaningful game since then. ONE!




Horse ****. We've won many meaningful games. You just don't remember

Spider
12-29-2008, 10:06 AM
Alfred Williams and Keith Traylor references tell me that you're still stuck in 1998. News flash, Mike Shanahan's teams have won exactly ONE meaningful game since then. ONE! what in the hell are you babbling about ? I said those type of players ........

And I'll ask you the same question, knowing how poorly this defense played, how can you be in favor of a coach that is bringing back the asst. coach that supervised that unit, that scheme, that pathetic excuse for a defense? As much as everyone complained about Bates, statistically it was a better unit!

Simple really , Defense just like offense all begins up front , how in the hell can you judge anything , when you Dline is getting blown off the LOS ?
there is a reason for our late season slide , or even late game slides ......
1. T.O.P. . we got to kill clock in the 4 th quarter keep your D on the bench . Slowik has nothing to do with that now does he ?
2. Fatigue , watch late in the game , the D just wears down , even when they are in position , they still get ran over ,Slowik doesnt draft personal now does he ? .......
lets wait and see how we do after Sunquist before we go Drama queen and over react

gunns
12-29-2008, 10:10 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75257

I think a lot of those fans are one more year fans because they are still scared of what's out there. I think they are just as tired though. We went through the same thing with Dan Reeves, thanks for the 3 SB appearances, but what have you done for me lately. The coach after him gave us all nightmares. Yes Shanahan will be here next year, no doubt, and a playoff win will be his security. Now we sound almost like the Chiefs or Raiders fans, but I guess we're a step up, they want just an appearance, we just want a win. How low we have sunk. And no, I'm not calling for Shanahan to be let go, but we've reached the point of an ultimatum, especially when he can't see the problems with the D coach.

baja
12-29-2008, 10:11 AM
what in the hell are you babbling about ? I said those type of players ........



Simple really , Defense just like offense all begins up front , how in the hell can you judge anything , when you Dline is getting blown off the LOS ?
there is a reason for our late season slide , or even late game slides ......
1. T.O.P. . we got to kill clock in the 4 th quarter keep your D on the bench . Slowik has nothing to do with that now does he ?
2. Fatigue , watch late in the game , the D just wears down , even when they are in position , they still get ran over ,Slowik doesnt draft personal now does he ? .......
lets wait and see how we do after Sunquist before we go Drama queen and over react

Well if Sunquist was the problen how did he get all those extra years to do all that drafting damage.

Anyway you slice it the Broncos have under preformed for several years now and on the D side it's getting worse not better.

Spider
12-29-2008, 10:11 AM
I dont know why everyone here wants to go off the deep end , demand so and so head , this isnt rocket science , you have to win the battle on the LOS , you dont win that , no scheme is going to work ........

Taco John
12-29-2008, 10:12 AM
I was extremely disappointed when we fired Coyer. He was my type of coach: a no-nonsense guy who milked every last ounce of talent out of his guys. The job he did while in Denver in this regard was incredible - especially where the defensive line was concerned. The problem that he had was that his scheme was very physical - it was a stlye like "line up your guys and play them straight up - may the best man win."

I like that ballsy style of defense, though it has it's ups and downs. That style of defense is heavy on technique, but light on scheme. Players don't have to think as much in that style of defense - they just go out and play. This is the kind of defense that I prefer. (And don't get me wrong - that's not to say that there isn't scheme - it's just that it's not as involved, it's more simple, more traditional). Think Baltimore, KC in the 90's. There are several reasons that I like this style of defense, but it has a serious weakness: over the long course of the season, they're easier to scheme against, and if you don't have standouts who can disrupt that counter-scemeing, it results in big plays.

Coyer got a lot out of the players that he had to work with, and at one point our defense was on a historic pace. But things eventually collapsed. There are a lot of reasons that factor into that collapse, but I think chief of those was the talent - something I think that everybody here can agree with (regardless of what they think of Coyer).

So on the other hand, we have Slowick. Slowick is a schemer. He wants to shuffle things up a lot, and do things that requires more finesse style of players. He needs players who are more cerebral, and pay attention to details. His style of player needs to build a lot of trust in his teammates before they are comfortable giving up chunks of ground to get to their assignment. This style of defense also has its ups and downs.

One of the chief downs is the fact that it takes time to learn it all. Anyone who read what the players has to say about the transition to Slowik is that their meetings took on more of a classroom tone. Slowik's relationship to the players seems to be very "Student-Teacherish."

It takes time for players to buy into this cerebral program - to buy into the scheme. Worse, if the players simply aren't there to make the scheme work, it affects the mentality of your team. The bottom line is, it takes time to make this sort of a cultural shift. These guys were dealing with new terminology, new techniques, new assignments, etc. There was no continuity in scheme from last year to this year. And from my understanding, Slowik was using a simplified version of his scheme this year - he apparently hasn't even really installed the whole thing.

So I'm thinking If we didn't have the players to play a simple, straight up stlye of defense, it's hard for me to make a judgement about Slowik and his scheme until he gets the players that he needs to make his cerebral-style defense work.

I'm not necessarily defending Bates though, because if I had it my way, Shanahan would own up to his mistake and offer Coyer an apology and ask him to come in and retake his DC mantle, and rather than drafting defensive players based on whether or not they fit into a specialized scheme, we just draft the best athletes available.

The reality is, people who complained about Coyer's scheme finally got what they asked for. They're just not being patient enough to find out if it's going to work. In this, Slowik's first season as our DC, it certainly didn't work this year. I share everybody's frustration over that. But even Slowik said at the beginning of the season that we aren't even close yet (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2008-07-27-3774986737_x.htm).

At the end of the day, Shanahan, being the offensive mind that he is, sees something in Slowik's scheme that he obviously finds valuable. But until he gets the players that he needs to actually make the scheme work, I think that it's hard to evaluate it.

bowtown
12-29-2008, 10:12 AM
Alfred Williams and Keith Traylor references tell me that you're still stuck in 1998. News flash, Mike Shanahan's teams have won exactly ONE meaningful game since then. ONE!

And I'll ask you the same question, knowing how poorly this defense played, how can you be in favor of a coach that is bringing back the asst. coach that supervised that unit, that scheme, that pathetic excuse for a defense? As much as everyone complained about Bates, statistically it was a better unit!

Sorry, but Bates scheme and his talent choices are a large reason this defense is such a mess this year. Slowik is certainly nothing special but Bates set this defense back at least 3 years.

Taco John
12-29-2008, 10:15 AM
There is a certain smugness that is born of denial that is irritating as hell to those of us that do not share that denial.


Indeed. I call it confidence.

At the end of the day though, the only thing that any of us has is faith.

Popps
12-29-2008, 10:15 AM
The reality is, people who complained about Coyer's scheme finally got what they asked for. They're just not being patient enough to find out if it's going to work. In this, Slowik's first season as our DC, it certainly didn't work this year. I share everybody's frustration over that. But even Slowik said at the beginning of the season that we aren't even close yet (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2008-07-27-3774986737_x.htm).
.


As I recall... people hated Coyer's scheme because we rarely blitzed, applied no pressure to opposing QBs and failed to make any adjustments at half-time. Those were the primary complaints about his defense.

From what I can tell, we just had better defensive talent back then... much better. Hard to believe, because even then... we lagged behind the better defenses in the league talent-wise, but when Shanahan "blew up" the 05 team... he forgot to restock it with any defensive talent... and here we are.

Is Slowik a crappy DC? Probably, but I'll guaran-fuc#ing-tee you Coyer couldn't do much better with this band of slobs we throw out there on Sundays.

Taco John
12-29-2008, 10:17 AM
From what I can tell, we just had better defensive talent back then... much better.


Your whole point of view is grounded in a pretty thin premise. You're power lifting in quicksand.

Spider
12-29-2008, 10:18 AM
Well if Sunquist was the problen how did he get all those extra years to do all that drafting damage.

Anyway you slice it the Broncos have under preformed for several years now and on the D side it's getting worse not better.I think having an Al Wilson type of Line backer buys everyone time , when Al Went down so did our Defense ......

Bronx33
12-29-2008, 10:18 AM
I am officially on the fence after the Slowik annnouncement. I simply can't justify bringing him back.

Then I think of the alternatives....

Say Shanny steps down this afternoon...what then?

Bowlen has to find a GM, first of all. Does he break the bank for a shot at convincing Scott Paoli or Cowher (who's not coming west anyway) to be the guy? Probably not. For a GM, you end up with an underling from an already successfull GM, or the most likely scenario is the Goodmans get promoted. Yay.

So, you've most likely got the same guys who are drafting for you now, and Bowlen, deciding who the next coach will be. I don't think Bowlen is stupid enough to go after a retread like a Dennis Greene (although a Fassel hire would scare me) or a college coach.

Most likely you've got the Goodmans and Bowlen sifting through current position coaches and coordinators hoping they hit the Tomlin/Harbaugh jackpot, and not the Morningweig/Cameron whammy. Then when the new guy is found, you obviously fire the whole defensive staff and try to retain Turner/Dennison/Bates on the offense.

What you're left with is something less than what I think we have with Shanahan, so I guess I'm content with where we're at. I guess....

The only way i will swallow this slowik returns pill IF hes taken out of the DC position he does not have the nessesary skills to call defenses but could still coach a D ( i think ) but if hes still calling plays in 09 iam going to go apeshyt i refuse to watch another season of that god aweful defense i would rather watch high school football.;D

Kaylore
12-29-2008, 10:18 AM
If Slowik stays as has been announced, Shanahan has lost my support. To go with the alcoholic reference earlier in the thread, he's an enabler. :flush:

bronco militia
12-29-2008, 10:18 AM
Sorry, but Bates scheme and his talent choices are a large reason this defense is such a mess this year. Slowik is certainly nothing special but Bates set this defense back at least 3 years.

bates shouldn't get all the blame for that. But he deserved to be fired.

personel decisions made during coyer's stay are part of the problem too.

also, Slowdick was coaching on both Coyer and Bates staff. there's isn't anything left I'd need to see from him.
The last four years and his stay in green bay should be enough to know it's time to move on

baja
12-29-2008, 10:19 AM
I was extremely disappointed when we fired Coyer. He was my type of coach: a no-nonsense guy who milked every last ounce of talent out of his guys. The job he did while in Denver in this regard was incredible - especially where the defensive line was concerned. The problem that he had was that his scheme was very physical - it was a stlye like "line up your guys and play them straight up - may the best man win."

I like that ballsy style of defense, though it has it's ups and downs. That style of defense is heavy on technique, but light on scheme. Players don't have to think as much in that style of defense - they just go out and play. This is the kind of defense that I prefer. (And don't get me wrong - that's not to say that there isn't scheme - it's just that it's not as involved, it's more simple, more traditional). Think Baltimore, KC in the 90's. There are several reasons that I like this style of defense, but it has a serious weakness: over the long course of the season, they're easier to scheme against, and if you don't have standouts who can disrupt that counter-scemeing, it results in big plays.

Coyer got a lot out of the players that he had to work with, and at one point our defense was on a historic pace. But things eventually collapsed. There are a lot of reasons that factor into that collapse, but I think chief of those was the talent - something I think that everybody here can agree with (regardless of what they think of Coyer).

So on the other hand, we have Slowick. Slowick is a schemer. He wants to shuffle things up a lot, and do things that requires more finesse style of players. He needs players who are more cerebral, and pay attention to details. His style of player needs to build a lot of trust in his teammates before they are comfortable giving up chunks of ground to get to their assignment. This style of defense also has its ups and downs.

One of the chief downs is the fact that it takes time to learn it all. Anyone who read what the players has to say about the transition to Slowik is that their meetings took on more of a classroom tone. Slowik's relationship to the players seems to be very "Student-Teacherish."

It takes time for players to buy into this cerebral program - to buy into the scheme. Worse, if the players simply aren't there to make the scheme work, it affects the mentality of your team. The bottom line is, it takes time to make this sort of a cultural shift. These guys were dealing with new terminology, new techniques, new assignments, etc. There was no continuity in scheme from last year to this year. And from my understanding, Slowik was using a simplified version of his scheme this year - he apparently hasn't even really installed the whole thing.

So I'm thinking If we didn't have the players to play a simple, straight up stlye of defense, it's hard for me to make a judgement about Slowik and his scheme until he gets the players that he needs to make his cerebral-style defense work.

I'm not necessarily defending Bates though, because if I had it my way, Shanahan would own up to his mistake and offer Coyer an apology and ask him to come in and retake his DC mantle, and rather than drafting defensive players based on whether or not they fit into a specialized scheme, we just draft the best athletes available.

The reality is, people who complained about Coyer's scheme finally got what they asked for. They're just not being patient enough to find out if it's going to work. In this, Slowik's first season as our DC, it certainly didn't work this year. I share everybody's frustration over that. But even Slowik said at the beginning of the season that we aren't even close yet (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2008-07-27-3774986737_x.htm).

At the end of the day, Shanahan, being the offensive mind that he is, sees something in Slowik's scheme that he obviously finds valuable. But until he gets the players that he needs to actually make the scheme work, I think that it's hard to evaluate it.

That's all well and good TJ except most football players are not rocket scientists they are drafted for their physical abilities not there ability to learn complex schemes.

The KISS program fits the model of an NFL defensive player best.

theAPAOps5
12-29-2008, 10:20 AM
If Slowik stays as has been announced, Shanahan has lost my support. To go with the alcoholic reference earlier in the thread, he's an enabler. :flush:

cosigned

HEAV
12-29-2008, 10:21 AM
It's a strange change of heart, Taco... to say the least. You were the guy moaning and cursing the organization when we were 6-1, or playing in AFC championship games. I remember after a win, people would be enjoying it around here and you would be in wet-blanket-mode, complaining about how it was all useless because we didn't have a top ranked QB.

Well, now we have a top ranked QB and we're in even worse shape. We literally don't have a defense, Taco. We DO NOT have one. We have one aging star who can't stay healthy... and a bunch of no-names. Our offense puts up yards. Great. We can't stop anyone, which has been the problem for years. We're at square 1, defensively... and our special teams pretty much blow, and you're talking about us being a "powerhouse?"

I've long labeled you as a QB-only guy, and for good reason. You defended Griese 'til your death when he was bringing the franchise down.... then railed Plummer when we were winning, and now rally behind Cutler when we're crappy again.

Basically... it seems that you're happy if you approved of the QB to start with, regardless of any results. If we lose... it's fine because you like the QB. If we win, that's not acceptable because you don't?
Takes all kinds, I guess... but that's a rooting strategy I could never quite figure out.

Your weird rooting strategy aside, you can't begrudge people around here for making results-based arguments that deal with factual information, not hope or weird, biased rooting strategies. Some of us fans are just fans and have been through enough with this team to know when things aren't in a good state.

Again, the last period of futility this pronounced for this organization began before most of us were born. We're in a historically awful ten-year run for this franchise and our weakest points are getting weaker every year. It's wonderful that the quarterback fits some sort of twisted rooting strategy you have, but just don't be angry at the more coherent around here who demand real results from the team.


QFT.

Not only did he whine about Plummer, he rooted for Plummer to fail. Even when Jake was leaving it all on the field and trying desperatly to keep up with the Colts in the playoff games.

It was never Roc Alexander, Lenny Walls, some other street free agent palying on defense. It was always Jake's fault.

But when his first man-crush (Brian Greise) was faultering it wasn't Brian. It was the poor O-line, the lack of a playmaker...

TJ your shtick is old. You own the board, but your just as hacky as Shanny.
Always trying to come off as the Super-fan, better than all, challenginig the views of others...making wild bet challenges in attemps to prove or expose the "Bad Fans"... Look in the mirror buddy your not that good of fan. You may bet for the team, but you rooted against this team before. I have never bet or rooted against this team Never.

gunns
12-29-2008, 10:22 AM
2. Fatigue , watch late in the game , the D just wears down , even when they are in position , they still get ran over ,Slowik doesnt draft personal now does he ? .......
lets wait and see how we do after Sunquist before we go Drama queen and over react

I believe Slowik had input on the D draft. I'm willing to give it one more year, not Slowik though. How long are you willing to give it? It's been 10 years.

Taco John
12-29-2008, 10:24 AM
It's a strange change of heart, Taco...

It's not strange at all. We all know that your still sore over being wrong about Plummer, and that all this is more love-lorn Plummer butt hurt.

I think we made the right decision to dump Plummer, abandon the plug-and-play effort, and rebuild this team from the ground up. Cutler is the keystone, and we've built the offense around him at the expense of the defense. I fully accept this and believe that it was the right thing to do. Now that they're built. I believe that we'll see the same effort put into the defense.

So no, it's not a strange change of heart. Sorry if you can't get over Plummer. Oh, I know - you didn't mention Plummer, it had nothing to do with Plummer. Right. People are smart enough to read between the lines.

Spider
12-29-2008, 10:25 AM
I believe Slowik had input on the D draft. I'm willing to give it one more year, not Slowik though. How long are you willing to give it? It's been 10 years.

10 years is pretty much the norm after winning the big one , I forget who I was arguing with , but I showed them ,Post F.A. Steelers , Cowboys , Niners etc 10+ years ....Slowik may have had in put , but the Dcords had the final say ....... So we will see

Taco John
12-29-2008, 10:26 AM
...making wild bet challenges in attemps to prove or expose the "Bad Fans"...

Actually, I rarely make bets. I'm usually on the accepting end. For the most part, I think bets are stupid, but sometimes my pride gets the best of me.

Taco John
12-29-2008, 10:27 AM
That's all well and good TJ except most football players are not rocket scientists they are drafted for their physical abilities not there ability to learn complex schemes.

The KISS program fits the model of an NFL defensive player best.

Yes. This is the overarching point of my post.

wolf754life
12-29-2008, 10:32 AM
i'm on a misssion, to oust the rat bastard from his hole

it might take another year but I will get his head

smell that cheese mikey mansion?

he is as good as gone..................

just wait and see

theAPAOps5
12-29-2008, 10:34 AM
But if he wins 3 in a row to start are you going to suck his dick again, Wolf.

wolf754life
12-29-2008, 10:41 AM
if he chokes it away again he is gone, i thought he had it earlier this year, i was in denial, thinking this year will be different, i was wrong, his team is soft (see all the injuries) and weak (see giving up 30 to buffalo at home)

BroncoFiend
12-29-2008, 10:46 AM
I am going to digest the offseason and draft before I choose a side. I am still leaning on my faith in Shanahan as I am convinced he is in a rebuild mode regardless of how this season turned out. I am certain he knew we would not be going very far even if we made the playoffs.

How would the "Shanny must go" crowd react if we signed a Haynesworht or Peppers and drafted Ray Maualuga? Just curious.

If we sign Peppers, the haters would use that as more fire against Shanny this time next year. Peppers will fail in his next location, the guy is driven by money alone and that is the reason for his big upswing this year.

HEAV
12-29-2008, 10:46 AM
It's not strange at all. We all know that your still sore over being wrong about Plummer, and that all this is more love-lorn Plummer butt hurt.

I think we made the right decision to dump Plummer, abandon the plug-and-play effort, and rebuild this team from the ground up. Cutler is the keystone, and we've built the offense around him at the expense of the defense. I fully accept this and believe that it was the right thing to do. Now that they're built. I believe that we'll see the same effort put into the defense.

So no, it's not a strange change of heart. Sorry if you can't get over Plummer. Oh, I know - you didn't mention Plummer, it had nothing to do with Plummer. Right. People are smart enough to read between the lines.



Sorry I just don't see the common sense in loading up only one side of the ball.

Football is about balance. The NBA,NHL MLB you can have sucess with offense only teams.

The NFL not so much.

Los Broncos
12-29-2008, 10:47 AM
I'm getting a little tired of him, but he gets 2 more seasons to make it work then he's gone.

Popps
12-29-2008, 10:49 AM
It's not strange at all. We all know that your still sore over being wrong about Plummer, and that all this is more love-lorn Plummer butt hurt..

Again, you're so hung up on QBs, man. You NEVER hear me talk about Plummer. I couldn't care less that he's gone. I'm happy we've upgraded the position. You're the QB-only guy around here.

I've been saying the same thing since Griese was here, Taco. We need a complete team that starts with a dominant defense. I've never changed that tune.

You, on the other hand... are happy losing, as long as you supported the QB going into the year. It's just bizarre.

socalorado
12-29-2008, 10:49 AM
Whats really scary is that shanny announces these things, like keeping Slowdick. Hes the GM, the HC, hell, he might as well be the owner!
He has WAAAAY too much power.
I see this becoming a power struggle between shanny and the fans.
Fans are already turning, i think it will just get worse.
This dude is losing it.
When you dont have to be held accountable for ANY of your actions, this is what happens.

wolf754life
12-29-2008, 10:54 AM
Whats really scary is that shanny announces these things, like keeping Slowdick. Hes the GM, the HC, hell, he might as well be the owner!
He has WAAAAY too much power.
I see this becoming a power struggle between shanny and the fans.
Fans are already turning, i think it will just get worse.
This dude is losing it.
When you dont have to be held accountable for ANY of your actions, this is what happens.

he will lose, he has lost so much already

he has lost his team
he has lost his credibility in coaching circles in the league
he has lost his reputation as a competent talent evaluator
he has lost his homefield advantage
next up: he will lose his mind...
then: his job

bye bye mikey masterpants!

HEAV
12-29-2008, 11:00 AM
Again, you're so hung up on QBs, man. You NEVER hear me talk about Plummer. I couldn't care less that he's gone. I'm happy we've upgraded the position. You're the QB-only guy around here.

I've been saying the same thing since Griese was here, Taco. We need a complete team that starts with a dominant defense. I've never changed that tune.

You, on the other hand... are happy losing, as long as you supported the QB going into the year. It's just bizarre.


When's the last time we had a serious pass rush? I mean one that had teams worried.

Also another scary trend is the running game fades.

theAPAOps5
12-29-2008, 11:06 AM
Again, you're so hung up on QBs, man. You NEVER hear me talk about Plummer. I couldn't care less that he's gone. I'm happy we've upgraded the position. You're the QB-only guy around here.

I've been saying the same thing since Griese was here, Taco. We need a complete team that starts with a dominant defense. I've never changed that tune.

You, on the other hand... are happy losing, as long as you supported the QB going into the year. It's just bizarre.

The defense doesn't even have to be dominant. It just has to be good. The Superbowl years the Defense were not what most consider dominant but they got the job done. I would be ecstatic with a Got the Job Done Defense again!

Taco John
12-29-2008, 11:09 AM
The defense doesn't even have to be dominant. It just has to be good. The Superbowl years the Defense were not what most consider dominant but they got the job done. I would be ecstatic with a Got the Job Done Defense again!



This is what I agree with. I don't believe the defense has to be dominant. I believe it just has to be good - a "get the job done defense."

I don't believe that the defense has to be "the number one priority." I personally think Offense has to be your number one priority in the modern NFL, with a "get it done defense" that is just above average (Ie. Top 15, but the higher the better).

Taco John
12-29-2008, 11:13 AM
You're the QB-only guy around here.



I'm pretty confidant that anyone who has read my position on Coyer and the defense knows that I'm not a QB-only guy. Certainly anyone who read my takes going all the way back to Greg Robinson at the old DPO knows that I'm not a QB only guy.

You can keep saying that if you want to, though. It doesn't matter to me.

NFLBRONCO
12-29-2008, 11:14 AM
When's the last time we had a serious pass rush? I mean one that had teams worried.

Also another scary trend is the running game fades.


I don't blame Shanny for these things

I know he wants to win SB's
I know he works hard and puts alot of time in

This I disagree with

Look at this board I would think more fans would start getting tired of this cycle and look he's still a god. So why would he have to make MAJOR moves because nobody cares what he does or how he does it. In this situation no Pepper's or Haynesworth's will be coming here he is under no pressure to win now. He is living on past rep and that's all people see I guarantee you if he was coaching in KC all this time with same results fans here would call him overrated and be laughing their asses off at him.

Taco John
12-29-2008, 11:15 AM
Sorry I just don't see the common sense in loading up only one side of the ball.



It gives that side of the ball the opportunity to build continuity over a couple seasons while you remove the focus from them in subsequent years while you build up the other side of the ball.

baja
12-29-2008, 11:26 AM
Yes. This is the overarching point of my post.

No, the overarching point of your post is to give Slowik more time because he has a complex cerebal scheme that will take a special combination of smarts and skill to play.

My point is you cut the available players that can play a system like that in half because football players are often not that smart.

For example DJ is a good football player who is probably not a good candidate for Slowik's system. He would do much better with Coyer.

Rohirrim
12-29-2008, 11:28 AM
It's not strange at all. We all know that your still sore over being wrong about Plummer, and that all this is more love-lorn Plummer butt hurt.

I think we made the right decision to dump Plummer, abandon the plug-and-play effort, and rebuild this team from the ground up. Cutler is the keystone, and we've built the offense around him at the expense of the defense. I fully accept this and believe that it was the right thing to do. Now that they're built. I believe that we'll see the same effort put into the defense.

So no, it's not a strange change of heart. Sorry if you can't get over Plummer. Oh, I know - you didn't mention Plummer, it had nothing to do with Plummer. Right. People are smart enough to read between the lines.

Who knows? Maybe we will see the same effort put into the D. Or maybe we'll see the first draft pick come down as a RB. One thing is true, though. There is no reason whatsover for having faith in Shanahan's ability to create a good defense. He has never shown an inkling of ability to do so. Given that he controls every element of the organization, there is no reason to believe that anything will suddenly change. It is belief devoid of reason.

If we are really going to base our beliefs on Shanahan's pattern of behavior in the past, then he will simply continue the "hole-plugging" concept of defense he's always had combined with his "bargain hunter" mentality. He'll look for that one "diamond in the rough" DT in the fourth round while passing up on three, more solidly scouted players in the first three rounds. Year after year, I've been on this board saying that the Broncos need to get playmakers on this D. He needs to do what he did to get Cutler: Trade up. I said it about Polamalu, Tommie Harris and Suggs. Why would I believe Shanahan would suddenly do something this offseason? Because TJ believes it? You have no basis in fact for such a belief. :oyvey:

baja
12-29-2008, 11:33 AM
This is what I agree with. I don't believe the defense has to be dominant. I believe it just has to be good - a "get the job done defense."

I don't believe that the defense has to be "the number one priority." I personally think Offense has to be your number one priority in the modern NFL, with a "get it done defense" that is just above average (Ie. Top 15, but the higher the better).

I doubt you could find even one poster here that thinks a dominant D and a dominant O is possible any more. We all just want a respectable D do go with this juggernaut O.

Popps
12-29-2008, 11:39 AM
When's the last time we had a serious pass rush? I mean one that had teams worried.

Also another scary trend is the running game fades.

1998.

We had spells where a couple guys could at least apply pressure. Berry/Heyward had their moments, for sure. But, we haven't had a dominant line since the SB days.

Our leading sacker this year has 5.

5.

Taco John
12-29-2008, 11:40 AM
No, the overarching point of your post is to give Slowik more time because he has a complex cerebal scheme that will take a special combination of smarts and skill to play.

My point is you cut the available players that can play a system like that in half because football players are often not that smart.

For example DJ is a good football player who is probably not a good candidate for Slowik's system. He would do much better with Coyer.



:welcome:

I'm not necessarily defending Bates though, because if I had it my way, Shanahan would own up to his mistake and offer Coyer an apology and ask him to come in and retake his DC mantle, and rather than drafting defensive players based on whether or not they fit into a specialized scheme, we just draft the best athletes available.

Rohirrim
12-29-2008, 11:51 AM
And for those who are under the delusion that offense will get you to the promised land, here's a fun little exercise. Simply take the team stats for this season in two categories, Team D & Team O, and match them up. See which teams are clustered at the top in the playoffs.

Here's the Team D stats:
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&season=2008&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

Here's the Team O stats:
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&statisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2008&seasonType=REG

As the playoffs continue, keep returning to these team pages and to see which teams keep moving ahead and which teams drop off. If the past is any teacher, the teams with the solid Ds will move ahead while the O-leaning teams (like Sandyeggo) drop off. The top three O teams were the Saints, Broncos and Texans. Top three D teams? Steelers, Ravens, Eagles.

Bob's your Information Minister
12-29-2008, 12:08 PM
Taco, I'll bet you anything the Broncos are in the bottom 20 on defense next year.

Taco John
12-29-2008, 12:11 PM
No one is saying that offense alone gets you to the promised land. Ultimately, I believe you need balance. But when it comes to building a foundation, I think that offense is the place to start. That way you can get a core group of guys working together and familiar. It builds continuity. Indeed, it affects the other side of the ball, but nobody is saying you don't focus on the defense once that offense is built. I think that's exactly what this next off season will be about.

Rabb
12-29-2008, 12:31 PM
:spit:

O.K... not the most conventional analogy, but it works.

lol, sorry...I was bitter and felt violated at the time of that posting still

baja
12-29-2008, 12:40 PM
:welcome:

Originally Posted by Taco John
I'm not necessarily defending Bates though, because if I had it my way, Shanahan would own up to his mistake and offer Coyer an apology and ask him to come in and retake his DC mantle, and rather than drafting defensive players based on whether or not they fit into a specialized scheme, we just draft the best athletes available.

But you also said this;
It takes time for players to buy into this cerebral program - to buy into the scheme. Worse, if the players simply aren't there to make the scheme work, it affects the mentality of your team. The bottom line is, it takes time to make this sort of a cultural shift. These guys were dealing with new terminology, new techniques, new assignments, etc. There was no continuity in scheme from last year to this year. And from my understanding, Slowik was using a simplified version of his scheme this year - he apparently hasn't even really installed the whole thing.

So I'm thinking If we didn't have the players to play a simple, straight up stlye of defense, it's hard for me to make a judgement about Slowik and his scheme until he gets the players that he needs to make his cerebral-style defense work.

I saying waiting is a bad idea and this cerebral system is not NFL friendly.

Shanahan's weakness has always been holding too much value on cerebral players

Brian Griese for example.

It's football not chess.

It is especially true of the defense.

It's the reason we got rid of Greg Robinson, remember.

HEAV
12-29-2008, 01:12 PM
It gives that side of the ball the opportunity to build continuity over a couple seasons while you remove the focus from them in subsequent years while you build up the other side of the ball.

So by the time your defense is coming up...your offense could be going down...

Makes perfect sense! so in 2 to 3 years the Broncos will have a defense combined with an offense on the decline.

That's if they can re-up B-Marsh, Scheff, keep the O-line together, find a running back, not suffer a huge injury to any player...

Build both sides eqaully.

Bronx33
12-29-2008, 01:16 PM
So by the time your defense is coming up...your offense could be going down...

Makes perfect sense! so in 2 to 3 years the Broncos will have a defense combined with an offense on the decline.

That's if they can re-up B-Marsh, Scheff, keep the O-line together, find a running back, not suffer a huge injury to any player...

Build both sides eqaully.



Sounds like what every team in the league has to do and deal with every year.

Taco John
12-29-2008, 02:02 PM
So by the time your defense is coming up...your offense could be going down...

Makes perfect sense! so in 2 to 3 years the Broncos will have a defense combined with an offense on the decline.

That's if they can re-up B-Marsh, Scheff, keep the O-line together, find a running back, not suffer a huge injury to any player...

Build both sides eqaully.


Build both sides equally and lavish in mediocrity for a decade. That's why I'm in favor of an actual "re-build." Get one side going and confident with eachother, and THEN get the other side going. From there, you can plug and play as needed for some time.

I think that there are both plusses and negatives with this approach - but for this team, at this time, I think that it's the right approach.

TonyR
12-29-2008, 02:53 PM
And for those who are under the delusion that offense will get you to the promised land, here's a fun little exercise. Simply take the team stats for this season in two categories, Team D & Team O, and match them up. See which teams are clustered at the top in the playoffs.

Here's the Team D stats:
...

As the playoffs continue, keep returning to these team pages and to see which teams keep moving ahead and which teams drop off. If the past is any teacher, the teams with the solid Ds will move ahead while the O-leaning teams (like Sandyeggo) drop off. The top three O teams were the Saints, Broncos and Texans. Top three D teams? Steelers, Ravens, Eagles.

Don't bother, I already proved this point beyond all reasonable doubt in a thread last week which he clearly ignored. Most of the league's top teams are top defensive teams: Steelers, Titans, Ravens, Giants, and Panthers being the best examples. It's so elementary the fact that it even has to be pointed out to someone speaks volumes.

Broncojef
12-29-2008, 02:57 PM
Build both sides equally and lavish in mediocrity for a decade. That's why I'm in favor of an actual "re-build." Get one side going and confident with eachother, and THEN get the other side going. From there, you can plug and play as needed for some time.

I think that there are both plusses and negatives with this approach - but for this team, at this time, I think that it's the right approach.

Crazy thought here....why not bring in some coaches with an agressive style that actually embrace the talent the kids have and start game planning some real defensive schemes. The thought we need a Champ Bailey at every position cause our coaches suck is ludacris and unachievable.

footstepsfrom#27
12-29-2008, 03:00 PM
Hey Pat Bowlen are you listening? Fire Mike and hire Urban Meyer NOW.

OK I feel better now.

Meck77
12-29-2008, 03:08 PM
Anyone remember when Mike Shanahan promised that the Broncos would make the playoffs? Does it matter? Will Mike be a man and finally admit we aren't a player or two from the SB? How long have we heard that song and dance now.

The point is Shanny is in denial to the state of this team. He was all season long.

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rmsanger
12-29-2008, 03:19 PM
I say Fire Shanny and bring in this guy...

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/01/15/1137303176_0010.jpg

cutthemdown
12-29-2008, 06:09 PM
Keeping Slowick is my breaking point. Get rid of him or demote him and bring in a "real" DC. It's not about a scapegoat, it's about making the wrong choice for the position and fixing it! Keeping Slowick just puts us one more year behind. The bright future you are referring cannot be realized with Slowick as the DC.

Weren't you the guy who went to TC practices and told us how good McCree looked at safety? I don't really see you as someone who has proven he knows anything about football. Both you and Khan are like that. You both pumped up players in the off season that me and many others said were scrubs.

It's not slowiks fault. Talking about how far off he plays the CBs shows you don't know what your talking about.

Slowik tried playing corners in under type coverage and they gave up big plays. He tried playing them in over coverage and they missed tackles.

He tried playing the safety's 1 deep, and 2 deep. They didn't make plays in either strategy. When he played 1 deep the safety in the box misses tackles and the safety deep fails to make any plays to help CBS in coverage. When he played 2 deep we got run on.

The linebackers were horrid. We have no presence on the SSL to help manhandle TE and help our smaller dends hold the edge. They can't shed blocks and they don't make big plays.

I remember both you and Kaylore and your camp reports. Back to the drawing board for Oskie the great football mind.

footstepsfrom#27
12-29-2008, 06:21 PM
Weren't you the guy who went to TC practices and told us how good McCree looked at safety? I don't really see you as someone who has proven he knows anything about football. Both you and Khan are like that. You both pumped up players in the off season that me and many others said were scrubs.

It's not slowiks fault. Talking about how far off he plays the CBs shows you don't know what your talking about.

Slowik tried playing corners in under type coverage and they gave up big plays. He tried playing them in over coverage and they missed tackles.

He tried playing the safety's 1 deep, and 2 deep. They didn't make plays in either strategy. When he played 1 deep the safety in the box misses tackles and the safety deep fails to make any plays to help CBS in coverage. When he played 2 deep we got run on.

The linebackers were horrid. We have no presence on the SSL to help manhandle TE and help our smaller dends hold the edge. They can't shed blocks and they don't make big plays.

I remember both you and Kaylore and your camp reports. Back to the drawing board for Oskie the great football mind.
Yeah...well I do something about the game and I think we should fire him also. What exactly has he EVER done to warrant being THE choice for DC on this team? This guy has been mediocre or less his entire career so why is he here? He supposedly knows how to coach secondaries...fine...demote him to that job. But Slowick is NOT an NFL caliber DC.

Having said that...the defensive talent on this team stinks. THAT is not his fault, it's Shanahan's.

bowtown
12-29-2008, 06:28 PM
Anyone remember when Mike Shanahan promised that the Broncos would make the playoffs? Does it matter? Will Mike be a man and finally admit we aren't a player or two from the SB? How long have we heard that song and dance now.

The point is Shanny is in denial to the state of this team. He was all season long.



No I don't remember when he said that. I do remember when he said this team would make the playoffs if it stayed relatively healthy... and it would have.

baja
12-29-2008, 06:33 PM
Anyone remember when Mike Shanahan promised that the Broncos would make the playoffs? Does it matter? Will Mike be a man and finally admit we aren't a player or two from the SB? How long have we heard that song and dance now.

The point is Shanny is in denial to the state of this team. He was all season long.

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Make up your mind I thought you said Pat called you and told you not to worry everything will be all right.

Meck77
12-29-2008, 06:38 PM
Make up your mind I thought you said Pat called you and told you not to worry everything will be all right.

WTF are you talking about. My comment on the other thread was from a conversation I had with the ticket director of the Broncos. I sat next to him and Mediator 12 at the colts playoff game a few years ago. Got to love the internet and random internet personalities.

colonelbeef
12-29-2008, 06:45 PM
Don't bother, I already proved this point beyond all reasonable doubt in a thread last week which he clearly ignored. Most of the league's top teams are top defensive teams: Steelers, Titans, Ravens, Giants, and Panthers being the best examples. It's so elementary the fact that it even has to be pointed out to someone speaks volumes.


That has not always been the case. That just happens to be the trend this year.

Balance is the key.

cutthemdown
12-29-2008, 06:57 PM
Yeah...well I do something about the game and I think we should fire him also. What exactly has he EVER done to warrant being THE choice for DC on this team? This guy has been mediocre or less his entire career so why is he here? He supposedly knows how to coach secondaries...fine...demote him to that job. But Slowick is NOT an NFL caliber DC.

Having said that...the defensive talent on this team stinks. THAT is not his fault, it's Shanahan's.

Listen I can't say whether or not Slowik is a good coach. I have never been coached by him. What I can say is that I see defenders in position and they don't make plays. I see him go 4-3, cover 1, 8 in the box and still the linebackers can't shed blocks and make plays. Unless these linebackers come totally free with no blockers they don't make plays. In the NFL your linebackers have to be able to shed blocks once in awhile. And yes I mean DJ Williams also. He's vastly overrated around here.

Until I see the Broncos with players that win 1-1 battles with offensive players I won't blame the d coord. That and we keep hiring new d coord but the defense still stinks. It has to be the players at this point.

In the game vs SD I saw our defenders all easily being blocked by one player. Not just blocked but not being able to get off the block at all. You have to lower your center of gravity, explode into the blocker, then use upper body strength to shed that block. I see them trying to do this like they have been coached up, but there lack of size and talent prevents them from executing it.

TonyR
12-29-2008, 08:23 PM
That has not always been the case. That just happens to be the trend this year.

Balance is the key.

Several teams have won Super Bowls with below average offenses, most recently and notable Tampa in '02 and and Baltimore in '00.

Name a team in the modern that won a Super Bowl with a below average defense. And don't give me Indy because that defense really came on at the end of that season and was really good in the playoffs.

Spider
12-29-2008, 09:40 PM
Several teams have won Super Bowls with below average offenses, most recently and notable Tampa in '02 and and Baltimore in '00.

Name a team in the modern that won a Super Bowl with a below average defense. And don't give me Indy because that defense really came on at the end of that season and was really good in the playoffs.

St Louis Rams , I know their defense was ranked high , but that was misleading ....teams would have to throw 30 + times vs the Rams

Taco John
12-29-2008, 10:04 PM
Name a team in the modern that won a Super Bowl with a below average defense. And don't give me Indy because that defense really came on at the end of that season and was really good in the playoffs.


"And don't give me Indy because that example completely negates my whole point..."

TheDave
12-29-2008, 10:05 PM
"And don't give me Indy because that example completely negates my whole point..."

or the Rams... ;D

Taco John
12-29-2008, 10:06 PM
They changed the DB rules in '03, and since then the Quarterback has ruled the NFL. It's the truth. That's not to say that defense isn't important, because it is. But defenses aren't marketable like quarterback driven offenses, and the NFL knows this. That's why they did it.

We're doing the right thing by taking advantage of the trend and having focused on offense first in our rebuild. We have nothing to do now BUT focus on defense. Things aren't as bad as people make them out to be.

BroncoBuff
12-29-2008, 10:19 PM
We have nothing to do now BUT focus on defense.
Agreed ... I could see drafting ALL defense, and on top of that signing Oshiomoghu Atogwe ... I'm sold on that kid. Last year he had a run of 8 INTs in 9 games, and free safety is our #1 position of need.

NFLBRONCO
12-29-2008, 10:23 PM
Agreed ... I could see drafting ALL defense, and on top of that signing Oshiomoghu Atogwe ... I'm sold on that kid. Last year he had a run of 8 INTs in 9 games, and free safety is our #1 position of need.

I think Denver should go ALL D but, I could see Shanny drafting a RB in first two rounds. We had huge needs on D last year and Stewart was next on our list not D.

DeusExManning
12-29-2008, 10:38 PM
Keeping Slowick is my breaking point. Get rid of him or demote him and bring in a "real" DC. It's not about a scapegoat, it's about making the wrong choice for the position and fixing it! Keeping Slowick just puts us one more year behind. The bright future you are referring cannot be realized with Slowick as the DC.

You have to give him two years, there has to be continuity.

HEAV
12-29-2008, 10:49 PM
You have to give him two years, there has to be continuity.

Ya tell that to the Falcons and Dolphins coaching staff.

Kaylore
12-30-2008, 07:14 AM
Ya tell that to the Falcons and Dolphins coaching staff.

And remember they gave all their talent away - even good guys like Crumpler - sometimes for no compensation. They're not juggernauts by any means, but everyone in the league thought the Falcons were left for dead with no coach wanting any part of them and that the Dolphins were several years away. Both are in the playoffs with double digit wins. Meanwhile we've been spinning our wheels for three years.

bowtown
12-30-2008, 07:33 AM
And remember they gave all their talent away - even good guys like Crumpler - sometimes for no compensation. They're not juggernauts by any means, but everyone in the league thought the Falcons were left for dead with no coach wanting any part of them and that the Dolphins were several years away. Both are in the playoffs with double digit wins. Meanwhile we've been spinning our wheels for three years.

I wouldn't exactly call a complete offensive rebuild that will only get more mature and potent over the next 8-10 years just "spinning our wheels."

Spider
12-30-2008, 07:36 AM
And remember they gave all their talent away - even good guys like Crumpler - sometimes for no compensation. They're not juggernauts by any means, but everyone in the league thought the Falcons were left for dead with no coach wanting any part of them and that the Dolphins were several years away. Both are in the playoffs with double digit wins. Meanwhile we've been spinning our wheels for three years.

:rofl: but , they said on ESPN that these teams were awesome man ........quit harshing the mellow dude ;D

HEAV
12-30-2008, 08:05 AM
I wouldn't exactly call a complete offensive rebuild that will only get more mature and potent over the next 8-10 years just "spinning our wheels."

9-7

8-8


You nuts if you think in today's NFL you can keep one unit together for more than 3 years.

There's contract's, retirements, injuries. Marshall's contract, Scheffler contract, redo'n Jay, find a new center, left guard...

Look at what happened to the Bengals great offense. Palmer got hurt a few years ago, now Chad is in decline, Housh is nearly gone for sure.

The NFL is about right now. Back in the 80's and 90's you could rebuild slowly. Not anymore.

Taco John
12-30-2008, 08:10 AM
9-7

8-8


You nuts if you think in today's NFL you can keep one unit together for more than 3 years.

There's contract's, retirements, injuries. Marshall's contract, Scheffler contract, redo'n Jay, find a new center, left guard...

Look at what happened to the Bengals great offense. Palmer got hurt a few years ago, now Chad is in decline, Housh is nearly gone for sure.

The NFL is about right now. Back in the 80's and 90's you could rebuild slowly. Not anymore.


http://www.thefantasykickoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/tom-brady-patriots.jpg

"Great Point!"

Rohirrim
12-30-2008, 08:59 AM
BTW, this thread is mis-named. I'm not a "Shanahan hater." I think he makes a great offensive coach. Maybe even a great head coach. But he sucks as President and Lord High Muckity-Muck of the entire Broncos organization. I certainly don't "hate" him. The emotion he brings up in me would best be described as ambivalence. I guess some mis-guided people are under the impression that Shanahan IS the Broncos. Not true. He's just a phase in their history. A phase that many Broncos' fans believe should come to an end. Players, coaches, even owners, come and go. But the Broncos remain, and in that sense, they are the property of the fans.

TonyR
12-30-2008, 09:56 AM
"And don't give me Indy because that example completely negates my whole point..."

It doesn't because that defense was very good when it counted as I stated and you conveniently ignored. But I see, as expected, you weren't able to come up with anything else. You couldn't be more wrong on this topic.

TonyR
12-30-2008, 10:06 AM
or the Rams... ;D

Wrong, that D was pretty good.

Look, if you can't see that the better teams in the league have strong defenses then I don't know what to tell you. Plugging your ears, covering your eyes and humming doesn't make you right about this. Hell, Baltimore's D carried a team with a less than mediocre rookie QB to an 11-5 record. Tennessee (13-3) has Kerry Collins running the offense. The Steelers (12-4) hardly have an offense. This isn't that hard to figure out. I know you're not that stupid and that it's more your desire to be "right" and prove somebody else "wrong" that's muddling up your reasoning here. If you think the Broncos are going to compete with the big boys without significantly upgrading the defense then you're in for a bumpy ride.

Broncomutt
12-30-2008, 12:45 PM
We have nothing to do now BUT focus on defense. Things aren't as bad as people make them out to be.

And you have confidence that Shanny CAN build a defense?

Most people realize that Shanny has tried to address the defense several times and failed pretty hard at almost every attempt.

"The little man upstairs" will fail again.

Ace7
12-30-2008, 02:37 PM
Pretty soon, though, it's going to be clear that Shanahan is going nowhere.

You were saying? ;D

TonyR
12-30-2008, 02:41 PM
You were saying? ;D

Yep, somebody needs to start a "Get it out of your system now, Shanahan apologists!"

NaptownChief
12-30-2008, 02:41 PM
Opps

baja
12-30-2008, 02:42 PM
...please. We know you want to get rid of Mike Shanahan, so go ahead and get it out of your system now. Pretty soon, though, it's going to be clear that Shanahan is going nowhere, and the focus will no longer be on whether Shanahan should be here or not, but what happens next.

So get it out now, but please - when that focus shifts to reality, lets keep the discussion on the moves the Broncos are making, and not the man, and have a productive offseason of discussion.

TJ you gotta stop making these predictions. You might as well have said, "I'm going to go ahead and call it"....

texpat
12-30-2008, 02:48 PM
...please. We know you want to get rid of Mike Shanahan, so go ahead and get it out of your system now. Pretty soon, though, it's going to be clear that Shanahan is going nowhere, and the focus will no longer be on whether Shanahan should be here or not, but what happens next.

So get it out now, but please - when that focus shifts to reality, lets keep the discussion on the moves the Broncos are making, and not the man, and have a productive offseason of discussion.

Stay away from Vegas!

Any other predictions we can bet against you on??

Chupacabra
12-30-2008, 04:23 PM
A little crow is due, TJ.

telluride
12-30-2008, 06:47 PM
...please. We know you want to get rid of Mike Shanahan, so go ahead and get it out of your system now. Pretty soon, though, it's going to be clear that Shanahan is going nowhere, and the focus will no longer be on whether Shanahan should be here or not, but what happens next.

So get it out now, but please - when that focus shifts to reality, lets keep the discussion on the moves the Broncos are making, and not the man, and have a productive offseason of discussion.

Bumped, because this is a tremendously funny bit of arrogant posturing.

baja
12-30-2008, 11:41 PM
...please. We know you want to get rid of Mike Shanahan, so go ahead and get it out of your system now. Pretty soon, though, it's going to be clear that Shanahan is gone, and the focus will no longer be on whether Shanahan should be here or not, but what happens next.

So get it out now, but please - when that focus shifts to reality, lets keep the discussion on the moves the Broncos are making, and not the man, and have a productive offseason of discussion.

can't we all just get along... ;D

Taco John
12-30-2008, 11:43 PM
A little crow is due, TJ.

I was wrong.

I thought more of Pat Bowlen's ability to gut through a tough rebuild.

I was wrong.

Popps
12-31-2008, 02:04 AM
I was wrong.

I thought more of Pat Bowlen's ability to gut through a tough rebuild.

I was wrong.


No, you insinuated that anyone who thought this possible was a moron. Yet, here we are.

Nice semi-confession, though. I love the touch of "I was still right" dashed in.

:rofl:

Taco John
12-31-2008, 02:12 AM
I was wrong.

But your still a moron.

Bob's your Information Minister
12-31-2008, 02:36 AM
How can you seriously sit here and defend Shanahan?

He failed to fix the defense. Doesn't really deserve another chance.

With the playoffs on the line The Mastermind's offense looked like a piece of crap against a terrible defense.

Essentially Shanny's last game in Denver was a playoff game. He blew it. Just like all the others the last few years.

watermock
12-31-2008, 02:57 AM
SD punted 1 time. We had 0 turnovers on d.

How many teams can overcome 52 points?

A: Not even OK.

chex
12-31-2008, 06:43 AM
http://theprudentindian.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/egg-on-face1.jpg

DBBBSBS
12-31-2008, 07:53 AM
Lol Lol.......... Now We Got Our Wish. Get Us A Good Young Coach With Passion For D

RMANCIL
12-31-2008, 10:04 AM
Jake Plummer, who Shanahan acquired from Arizona and then gave up on following his AFC title game loss to Pittsburgh nor Jay Cutler who Shanahan drafted were the problem or the answer. QB are like good looking women there is another one along every few minutes or drafts in football.

However they can't block or tackle nor cover and at some point your wise to be thankful for the one you have and devote some resources to improving your relashionship or in this case taking care of the defense as well as the OL.

Denver improved the OL for Cutler which was what they should have done for Plummer, the QB lust that lead Shanahan to dump Plummer in mid season for his latest pretty QB thing in the end cost him his job.

Defense and run games do matter and quality RB don't fall off trees and character does make a difference always has.

Cutler was surprisingly selected by the Denver Broncos with the 11th pick in the 2006 draft, after the Broncos acquired the pick from the St. Louis Rams by trading their 15th and 68th overall picks despite making it to the AFCCG IN 2005.

Haloti Ngata DT , Tamba Hali DE , DeAngelo Williams RB were on the board and would have helped fill a need. The loss of the 3rd round pick cost them a shot at Ashton Youboty DB , Dusty Dvoracek DT , Jerious Norwood RB , Dave Thomas TE , Owen Daniels TE and Barry Cofield DT any of which would have strengthened the team.

But Plummer would not have as strong of a arm nor run as fast or be such a great leader as Cutler........right?????

TonyR
12-31-2008, 10:50 AM
I was wrong.

I thought more of Pat Bowlen's ability to gut through a tough rebuild.

I was wrong.

Yes, the guy gave up after 10 years. What a loser.

But you're right on the money with the "I was wrong" part. And you're just as wrong about this not being the right move.

Ace7
12-31-2008, 10:55 AM
And you're just as wrong about this not being the right move.

And if it is the right move, the sad thing is that some people won't be able to enjoy it.

Having backed themselves in to a corner, they will now be looking for negatives any way they can.

Any noticeable improvements that arise on the team will not be attributed to the new coach.

You can write the script in here.

chex
12-31-2008, 11:36 AM
And if it is the right move, the sad thing is that some people won't be able to enjoy it.

Having backed themselves in to a corner, they will now be looking for negatives any way they can.

Any noticeable improvements that arise on the team will not be attributed to the new coach.

You can write the script in here.

Yup. Basically, Shanahan would've been 19-0 next year. We will know this for sure when we hear how after every win, Shanahan would've won that game anyway, and after every loss, Shanahan would've won that game too.

Tom A Hawk
12-31-2008, 01:12 PM
I'm not saying don't discuss it. I'm saying *do* discuss it. But at some point in time, that discussion is going to be irrelevant because Bowlen won't have taken action. I'm hoping that at that point, we can move on from "we should fire Shanahan" to "let's look at the moves this team is/isn't making.

ooops!

Rock Chalk
12-31-2008, 01:16 PM
And if it is the right move, the sad thing is that some people won't be able to enjoy it.

Having backed themselves in to a corner, they will now be looking for negatives any way they can.

Any noticeable improvements that arise on the team will not be attributed to the new coach.

You can write the script in here.

Man you just described Taco John to a T.

Popps
12-31-2008, 01:17 PM
ooops!

:rofl:

This needs to be in the ROF, as well. Of all of Taco's great prognostications, this one had to be the funniest.

Taco John
12-31-2008, 01:17 PM
Man you just described Taco John to a T.



Said the guy who hasn't shut up about how bad Cutler is since losing his lover, Jake Plummer...

Tom A Hawk
12-31-2008, 01:18 PM
:rofl:

This needs to be in the ROF, as well. Of all of Taco's great prognostications, this one had to be the funniest.

Between him and Boob, you can place your bet the opposite of their view and come out ahead 80% of the time.

Popps
12-31-2008, 01:19 PM
Said the guy who hasn't shut up about how bad Cutler is since losing his lover, Jake Plummer...

Wow, you and pocket-pet need to get a new routine. You two are the only sad ladies who drone on and on about Plummer on this place.

I mean... get with "reality."


:rofl:

Popps
12-31-2008, 01:20 PM
Between him and Boob, you can place your bet the opposite of their view and come out ahead 80% of the time.

Yep, you heard it here first.... watch for his vendetta against whomever we hire as a coach. He has a new purpose around here, now.

Hell hath no fury! !Booya!

Taco John
12-31-2008, 01:23 PM
Wow, you and pocket-pet need to get a new routine. You two are the only sad ladies who drone on and on about Plummer on this place.

I mean... get with "reality."


:rofl:



Whatever. Everybody knows your act by now. You don't mention Plummer's name anymore, but your scorn for Jay has been obvious since he replaced him. People have caught on to your two-faced act long by now.

Meck77
12-31-2008, 01:25 PM
Taco you are truly a master angler at getting people to bite at your asinine takes.
Shanny was the mastermind of the Broncos offense. Taco is the mastermind of kicking up action on a messageboard!


http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3368/boyfishinggq5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/boyfishinggq5.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img224/boyfishinggq5.jpg/1/)

SprintRightOption
12-31-2008, 02:01 PM
Smug and habitually wrong.

Not the best recipe for respect...

Taco John
12-31-2008, 02:05 PM
The idea that I'm habitually wrong is BS. I hit just as many as I miss, like anyone else here. Everyone else here would be "habitually wrong" if they had Alec and Popps going out of their way at any chance they could get to bring up any single error you make, and never give you any credit for what you get right. No one on this site has that but me (and I'm fine with it, despite the distorted perception it creates).

Nobody on this board - nobody - not even the haters - believed that Bowlen was going to fire Shanahan. They wanted him to, but they didn't believe he'd go through with it.

Bronx33
12-31-2008, 02:07 PM
grain of salt taco ( remember)

Popps
12-31-2008, 02:08 PM
Whatever. Everybody knows your act by now. You don't mention Plummer's name anymore, but your scorn for Jay has been obvious since he replaced him. People have caught on to your two-faced act long by now.

:rofl:

Ahhh... more Plummer fixation. Really original dude.

Yea, you're right... I have said that Plummer needed a defense/running game... just like I said about your boy Griese and now Cutler.

But, you just keep right on obsessing over Griese and Plummer, dude. It's really riveting message board material.

The rest of us will move into "reality."

:thumbsup:

Taco John
12-31-2008, 02:09 PM
grain of salt taco ( remember)


Yeah I know. It's easy for people to take their pot shots when I'm down. Go ahead. I can take it.

Rock Chalk
12-31-2008, 02:09 PM
The idea that I'm habitually wrong is BS. I hit just as many as I miss, like anyone else here. Everyone else here would be "habitually wrong" if they had Alec and Popps going out of their way at any chance they could get to bring up any single error you make, and never give you any credit for what you get right.

Nobody on this board - nobody - not even the haters - believed that Bowlen was going to fire Shanahan. They wanted him to, but they didn't believe he'd go through with it.

That is far from true.

You just remember the times we goad you, but you seem to forget the times we BOTH have given you props for your correctness.

In fact today I have even defended you (yet bashed in the very same post because I am afterall, me and you are you). I specifically said your gutless thread wasnt a meltdown thread and that you were not a meltdown type of person (ala Slap and Jake). That sir, was a compliment to your fairness and generally calm demeanor.

And you are generally among the statistical average on your right and wrong, the problem with you is that you are so vocal, so adamant and so unwilling to admit your misses (it took Foster getting canned before you finally admitted that was a bad call on your part), that they are the ones everyone remembers NOT because of me and/or Popps pointing it out.

Popps may be different but you will NEVER see me start a thread pointing out your errors. I just reply to them :)

Popps
12-31-2008, 02:09 PM
Smug and habitually wrong.

Not the best recipe for respect...

:rofl:

broncofan7
12-31-2008, 02:10 PM
The idea that I'm habitually wrong is BS. I hit just as many as I miss, like anyone else here. Everyone else here would be "habitually wrong" if they had Alec and Popps going out of their way at any chance they could get to bring up any single error you make, and never give you any credit for what you get right. No one on this site has that but me (and I'm fine with it, despite the distorted perception it creates).

Nobody on this board - nobody - not even the haters - believed that Bowlen was going to fire Shanahan. They wanted him to, but they didn't believe he'd go through with it.

But we painted the reasons as to why he should be moved. and others such as yourself, blue flame and The Reverend kept typing , "well it really doesn't matter, Bowlen is TOO INTELLIGENT to get rid of Mike, 80% on this board agree with me, etc etc....".

Rock Chalk
12-31-2008, 02:11 PM
The idea that I'm habitually wrong is BS. I hit just as many as I miss, like anyone else here. Everyone else here would be "habitually wrong" if they had Alec and Popps going out of their way at any chance they could get to bring up any single error you make, and never give you any credit for what you get right. No one on this site has that but me (and I'm fine with it, despite the distorted perception it creates).

Nobody on this board - nobody - not even the haters - believed that Bowlen was going to fire Shanahan. They wanted him to, but they didn't believe he'd go through with it.

Id say less than 1% of the people thought he might but I agree with the premise here, I dont think very many people anywhere in the world suspected Bowlen would have the BALLS to do it (your gutless thread is wrong because Bowlen was far from Gutless in doing so, it was the ballsiest move in the NFL in a long time IMO).

Taco John
12-31-2008, 02:12 PM
If I was wrong, it was about Bowlen. I figured he'd honor the contract that he started with Mike when he brought in Jay. I didn't think that there was any way in hell that Bowlen would want to disrupt the franchise at this delicate point.

I was wrong. Nothing more I can say than that.

I was wrong.

Popps
12-31-2008, 02:19 PM
But we painted the reasons as to why he should be moved. and others such as yourself, blue flame and The Reverend kept typing , "well it really doesn't matter, Bowlen is TOO INTELLIGENT to get rid of Mike, 80% on this board agree with me, etc etc....".

Exaaaaaaaactly.

The problem isn't with a missed prediction. It was with the (usual) smug delivery and the (usual) inaccurate nature of that prediction. Then, a follow-up post calling the owner gutless, which was also inaccurate.

No one begrudges anyone for missing a prediction around here... but when you're popping off at the mouth like your **** doesn't stink and insinuating the rest of the forum are idiots, expect to have your face rubbed in it when you're proven wrong... particularly if your history is that you're regularly wrong.

Taco John
12-31-2008, 02:21 PM
Your constant lying nature doesn't really bother me. I know who I am.

Rock Chalk
12-31-2008, 02:22 PM
If I was wrong, it was about Bowlen. I figured he'd honor the contract that he started with Mike when he brought in Jay. I didn't think that there was any way in hell that Bowlen would want to disrupt the franchise at this delicate point.

I was wrong. Nothing more I can say than that.

I was wrong.
I disagree on why you are wrong.

1) Contracts in the NFL are about performance. If you do not perform as a coach or player, you should not be paid. Mike brought in Jay, and the offense has seen great improvement but Mike failed in the other two phases of the game as the defacto head honcho. As a business owner, Pat made a decision that the head honcho had failed overall. The defense has regressed 3 straight years after being so close in 2005.

2) Bowlen probably didnt WANT to disrupt the franchise, and from the presser I didnt get the impression that this was easy for him but he went with his instinct and his gut and his instinct and gut have made him billions so when you have had that much success you go with what works. You cannot fault him for that. You may question whether or not he made the RIGHT decision but calling the man gutless because he followed his own instincts on a business matter when the man has made BILLIONS is asinine on your part.

3) Your assumption is that the franchise is going to be set back but that is an assumption. Fact is, the franchise may very well be in better shape now than it was this past year with Shanahan at the helm. It was way too early to discern one way or the other so you had a pre-emptive knee jerk reaction because you knew you, like many here, were wrong that Bowlen would indeed fire Mike Shanahan.

My issue with your whole attitude today is simple Isaac. Its not that you were wrong about the firing, its your whining and complaining that the franchise is worse off now as if you know that for fact. You do not. you seem to be scared most of all, of change. All change happens, some good, some bad, this may be either or, but it was inevitable and one that the "best owner in sports" - Mike Shanahan believed needed to be made.

RMANCIL
01-06-2009, 06:50 AM
Id say less than 1% of the people thought he might but I agree with the premise here, I dont think very many people anywhere in the world suspected Bowlen would have the BALLS to do it (your gutless thread is wrong because Bowlen was far from Gutless in doing so, it was the ballsiest move in the NFL in a long time IMO).

Interesting take....just how long should a owner go before pulling the plug?? When you look at the Fish and the Falcons it is pretty clear that in todays N.F.L. a team with the right moves can turn things around in just one or two seasons.

It is pretty clear that the defense and the run game have been issues for some time in Denver. Shannahan at some point has to bear the responsibility of that their are just so many people you can fire and the Broncos have pretty well placed the blame on everyone else but him the past several years.

Who do you folks like for the job?

Garcia Bronco
01-06-2009, 06:57 AM
Interesting take....just how long should a owner go before pulling the plug?? When you look at the Fish and the Falcons it is pretty clear that in todays N.F.L. a team with the right moves can turn things around in just one or two seasons.



Stop repeating the ESPN garbage. These teams have been struggling for a long, long time. More than two seasons. Oh and look, they were both 1 and done in the playoffs.

Man-Goblin
01-06-2009, 07:33 AM
I am officially on the fence after the Slowik annnouncement. I simply can't justify bringing him back.

Then I think of the alternatives....

Say Shanny steps down this afternoon...what then?

Bowlen has to find a GM, first of all. Does he break the bank for a shot at convincing Scott Paoli or Cowher (who's not coming west anyway) to be the guy? Probably not. For a GM, you end up with an underling from an already successfull GM, or the most likely scenario is the Goodmans get promoted. CHECK! Yay.

So, you've most likely got the same guys who are drafting for you now, and Bowlen, deciding who the next coach will be. I don't think Bowlen is stupid enough to go after a retread like a Dennis Greene (although a Fassel hire would scare me) or a college coach. CHECK!

Most likely you've got the Goodmans and Bowlen sifting through current position coaches and coordinators hoping they hit the Tomlin/Harbaugh jackpot, and not the Morningweig/Cameron whammy.CHECK! Then when the new guy is found, you obviously fire the whole defensive staff and try to retain Turner/Dennison/Bates on the offense. CHECK!

What you're left with is something less than what I think we have with Shanahan, so I guess I'm content with where we're at. I guess....

Posted the day before the firing. You are one smart man, man.

Popps
01-06-2009, 06:04 PM
Stop repeating the ESPN garbage. These teams have been struggling for a long, long time. More than two seasons. Oh and look, they were both 1 and done in the playoffs.

Both have a playoff caliber team. They got further than we did with our fancy QB and no defense.

Atlanta is primed to be a force again next year. Young team, great running game... a decent defense and that's where they'll focus in the off-season, is my guess.

I mean... you think we're further along than they are?

Please.

Sassy
01-06-2009, 06:07 PM
Is this like the "Marshall Hater" thread ;D :devil:

Popps
01-06-2009, 06:12 PM
Is this like the "Marshall Hater" thread ;D :devil:

Yes.

Wishing someone to perform well means hate.

Duh. Look it up in the dictionary.

Sassy
01-06-2009, 06:14 PM
Yes.

Wishing someone to perform well means hate.
(AND to have Classy behavior on and off the field...)

Duh. Look it up in the dictionary.

I fixed it for you Popps...you had part of it right :thanku:

Bob's your Information Minister
01-06-2009, 07:03 PM
Between him and Boob, you can place your bet the opposite of their view and come out ahead 80% of the time.

I predicted the Broncos would be 8-8 due to their terrible defense and awesome quarterback this year.

Shove that up your butt.

Popps
01-06-2009, 07:18 PM
I predicted the Broncos would be 8-8 due to their terrible defense and awesome quarterback this year.

Shove that up your butt.

Wow, that's impressive. Meanwhile, so did 95% of the other posters here.

Great job, though.

Bob's your Information Minister
01-06-2009, 07:36 PM
Meanwhile, so did 95% of the other posters here.


Incorrect.

Half you retards thought the Donks were going 11-5. :rofl:

Popps
01-06-2009, 08:10 PM
Incorrect.

Half you retards thought the Donks were going 11-5. :rofl:

Show me the proof, jiggles.

I'll bet you 2/3rds of the forum thought we'd end up between 7-9 and 10-6.

Not that a bet with your doughy ass is worth anything.

TheReverend
01-06-2009, 08:18 PM
Wow. Haven't read the entire thread but sure seems like a TJ bashing thread and a near celebration of Mike getting fired.

Here's some reality that we've seen. Pat was definitely not dodging questions and was serious when he made these two statements:

RE Firing Mike: I've been thinking about it for a long time now.

RE What Next: I haven't thought about that yet.

Wow. What a brain trust. The endless stream of coaching candidates is in ways good that it's thorough, but definitely shows little foresight... at least he's honest. There's a scarily high chance of ended up pissing away all the potential that's been assembled.

By all means, though, crucify... TJ???

Taco John
01-06-2009, 08:44 PM
I don't feel bad about this thread at all. Again, nobody knew that Bowlen was going to do this. And when you consider the deal he just signed Mike to just two years ago, it looked like Bowlen was committed to giving him the time he needed to rebuild this team.

Believing that Bowlen would fire Mike and end up on the hook to him and his coaching staff for three full years left on his contract - well that was delusional crazy talk.

If it was next season - and there were only two years left, that would have been a different story.

My opinion of Bowlen was that he was more pragmatic than this, and above all, loyal to the man he personally said he had picked as "coach for life."

Ironlung
01-06-2009, 08:50 PM
It's miserable being a Bronco fan for you two right now, huh?

Taco John
01-06-2009, 09:29 PM
It's miserable being a Bronco fan for you two right now, huh?


Absolutely. I feel like we just threw a future Superbowl trophy down the tubes. I'll feel miserable about this decision until it's clear that the new coach can take the rebuilding project to the same heigths that I felt we were headed. The first sign of that will be whether or not this offense regresses this upcoming season.

Popps
01-06-2009, 09:32 PM
It's miserable being a Bronco fan for you two right now, huh?

Me, too. I don't know what I'm going to do if we don't finish around .500, miss the playoffs and get ****tier as the season goes on next year.

I mean, how can anyone not miss that? These last few years have been fantastic.

Worst defense in the league.... and a clear history of not being able to improve it.

Ahhh... the good old days.

Popps
01-06-2009, 09:44 PM
Absolutely. I feel like we just threw a future Superbowl trophy down the tubes. I'll feel miserable about this decision until it's clear that the new coach can take the rebuilding project to the same heigths that I felt we were headed. The first sign of that will be whether or not this offense regresses this upcoming season.

A few of us are willing to put up $100 bets that we'll be better than 7-9 next year. I think Meck77 said he'd even bet you $100 we make the playoffs.

If you're so sure we're doomed, that's like free money, dude.

Let me know.

Popps
01-06-2009, 09:48 PM
I don't feel bad about this thread at all. Again, nobody knew that Bowlen was going to do this.

Oh, just a refresher... no one would have begrudged you a missed prediction.

It was the being aloof and douchey about it that made it blow up in your face.

FYI

Bob's your Information Minister
01-06-2009, 09:51 PM
Absolutely. I feel like we just threw a future Superbowl trophy down the tubes.

Why?

Was Shanahan going to give up his dual titles?

It's pretty obvious he had too much power and was in over his head.

There were no signs of life on defense. Nada. Zilch.

I wonder if Bowlen gave Shanny an ultimatum.

SoCalBronco
01-06-2009, 09:52 PM
A few of us are willing to put up $100 bets that we'll be better than 7-9 next year. .

We might be better than 7-9 purely in the abstract...but if you look at our schedule, there's virtually no way we'll have a record that is actually better than 7-9.

As I've said before, there's only one scenario involving that schedule where this team can make the postseason. It's the same scenario that involves Bob sleeping with supermodels and Taco spending $ 250.00 at nflshop.com on an authentic Plummer jersey.

Look at some of these non-divisional opponents:

DENVER
Home: Kansas City, Oakland, San Diego, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New England, Dallas, N.Y. Giants
Away: Kansas City, Oakland, San Diego, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Philadelphia, Washington

Popps
01-06-2009, 09:53 PM
Why?

Was Shanahan going to give up his dual titles?

It's pretty obvious he had too much power and was in over his head.

There were no signs of life on defense. Nada. Zilch.

I wonder if Bowlen gave Shanny an ultimatum.


Yo porker, where's the proof that half the forum thought we'd be 11-5?

Bob's your Information Minister
01-06-2009, 09:53 PM
Fvck off, Popps.

Taco John
01-06-2009, 09:54 PM
A few of us are willing to put up $100 bets that we'll be better than 7-9 next year. I think Meck77 said he'd even bet you $100 we make the playoffs.

If you're so sure we're doomed, that's like free money, dude.

Let me know.


I'm not sure we're doomed. I'm not sure of anything right now.

Interesting though... Meck is actually willing to bet ON the Broncos instead of against them. That's a positive change.

Popps
01-06-2009, 09:55 PM
We might be better than 7-9 purely in the abstract...but if you look at our schedule, there's virtually no way we'll have a record that is actually better than 7-9.

As I've said before, there's only one scenario involving that schedule where this team can make the postseason. It's the same scenario that involves Bob sleeping with supermodels and Taco spending $ 250.00 at nflshop.com on an authentic Plummer jersey.

Look at some of these non-divisional opponents:

DENVER
Home: Kansas City, Oakland, San Diego, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New England, Dallas, N.Y. Giants
Away: Kansas City, Oakland, San Diego, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Philadelphia, Washington

Brutal, indeed. At least it appears that way on paper.

So, we wouldn't have won 8 games next year with Shanahan, is what you're saying?

Popps
01-06-2009, 09:58 PM
I'm not sure we're doomed. I'm not sure of anything right now.

Interesting though... Meck is actually willing to bet ON the Broncos instead of against them. That's a positive change.

You talking about him betting against a rookie QB being thrown into a fire? Sounds like a smart bet, to me.... and it was.

He was right.

Now, he's saying we'll make the playoffs next year, or at least he's willing to put his $ where his mouth is.

Popps
01-06-2009, 09:59 PM
f*** off, Popps.

Now, Bob. It's easier of you just say, "Popps, I'm sorry. I don't have proof. I was talking ****. You were right."

Ratboy
01-06-2009, 09:59 PM
If I was wrong, it was about Bowlen. I figured he'd honor the contract that he started with Mike when he brought in Jay. I didn't think that there was any way in hell that Bowlen would want to disrupt the franchise at this delicate point.

I was wrong. Nothing more I can say than that.

I was wrong.

Taco,

Pat is going to honor the contract. Mike Shanahan will be on the books (unless he decides to coach) for another 3 years. If Pat Bowlen was a prick, he could go after his money.

Pat realizes that he had a contract with Shanahan and it was HIS choice to go a different directions, therefore he will give him the money.

Pat Bowlen is a classy owner, I don't think many (if any) would do the same.

Taco John
01-06-2009, 10:02 PM
I don't think many (if any) would do the same.


They wouldn't have a choice. It's a contract. That's the whole point of having contracts.

Of course, Al Davis refused to pay out a contract. But that was a pittance compared to what Pat owes Mike at this point.

Ratboy
01-06-2009, 10:08 PM
They wouldn't have a choice. It's a contract. That's the whole point of having contracts.

Contracts in the NFL are a joke, might as well be an "IOU" written with a 'Radical Red' crayon.

Taco John
01-06-2009, 10:21 PM
Contracts in the NFL are a joke, might as well be an "IOU" written with a 'Radical Red' crayon.


You're confusing the issue with what happens when a player wants out of his deal. Contracts are still contracts, and once money is put on the table, it rarely just "goes away."

It's not really a discussion worth having really. Bowlen is on the hook for the money, period. He'd have a hard time getting out of it.

Rohirrim
01-07-2009, 07:48 AM
We might be better than 7-9 purely in the abstract...but if you look at our schedule, there's virtually no way we'll have a record that is actually better than 7-9.

As I've said before, there's only one scenario involving that schedule where this team can make the postseason. It's the same scenario that involves Bob sleeping with supermodels and Taco spending $ 250.00 at nflshop.com on an authentic Plummer jersey.

Look at some of these non-divisional opponents:

DENVER
Home: Kansas City, Oakland, San Diego, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New England, Dallas, N.Y. Giants
Away: Kansas City, Oakland, San Diego, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Philadelphia, Washington

Yeah, the new coach "haters" (whoever is chosen) will have plenty of ammo for attacks next season. Obviously, nobody is going to come in here and build a top tier D in one season from the wreckage Shanahan left behind. With that schedule, the Broncos will be lucky to go 8 & 8. I can hear the abuse heaped on the owner, the FO and new coaching staff already - "If Mike was still here..." baddabingbaddaboom.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 07:56 AM
Yeah, the new coach "haters" (whoever is chosen) will have plenty of ammo for attacks next season. Obviously, nobody is going to come in here and build a top tier D in one season from the wreckage Shanahan left behind. With that schedule, the Broncos will be lucky to go 8 & 8. I can hear the abuse heaped on the owner, the FO and new coaching staff already - "If Mike was still here..." baddabingbaddaboom.

I'll restate this in the "Official Prediction Thread for 2009" when it comes, but I'm actually pretty sure all the new coach "haters" are going to end up being the same guys that were the "Shanahan haters".

For most of them, it's a psychological personality type and not an actual belief.

Rohirrim
01-07-2009, 08:02 AM
I'll restate this in the "Official Prediction Thread for 2009" when it comes, but I'm actually pretty sure all the new coach "haters" are going to end up being the same guys that were the "Shanahan haters".

For most of them, it's a psychological personality type and not an actual belief.

Really? My guess is that it will be the Shanahan "Defenders to the Death" group with the famous, "See? I told you so!" whine. ;D

Mediator12
01-07-2009, 08:17 AM
Yeah, the new coach "haters" (whoever is chosen) will have plenty of ammo for attacks next season. Obviously, nobody is going to come in here and build a top tier D in one season from the wreckage Shanahan left behind. With that schedule, the Broncos will be lucky to go 8 & 8. I can hear the abuse heaped on the owner, the FO and new coaching staff already - "If Mike was still here..." baddabingbaddaboom.

With next years schedule and the status quo on defense:

If Mike was still here.....They would still be no better than 8-8 and out of the playoffs, but now for the fourth year in a row under Shanahan ;D

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:26 AM
Really? My guess is that it will be the Shanahan "Defenders to the Death" group with the famous, "See? I told you so!" whine. ;D

There might be a couple, but I SINCERELY doubt it will be Taco or Socal or Colonelbeef or Sureshot and I KNOW it won't be me, and we've been the only vocal "This is stupid" after a week that I've particularly noticed.

However, the situation could probably make a lot of little weasels now saying "It was the right decision" to turncoat and throw that whine around.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:27 AM
With next years schedule and the status quo on defense:

If Mike was still here.....They would still be no better than 8-8 and out of the playoffs, but now for the fourth year in a row under Shanahan ;D

You quit your job and became a gypsy fortune teller?

Mediator12
01-07-2009, 08:31 AM
You quit your job and became a gypsy fortune teller?

No, no, no. I am still an implementation manager. The difference is we make the results the Gypsy fortune tellers say (Organizational Change consultants) bear fruit.

Oh, and I NEVER ever bet on football :welcome: Way too many variables.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:34 AM
No, no, no. I am still an implementation manager. The difference is we make the results the Gypsy fortune tellers say (Organizational Change consultants) bear fruit.

Oh, and I NEVER ever bet on football :welcome: Way too many variables.

Well, if I don't throw some of my money away what would the hell would I do with it?

socalorado
01-07-2009, 08:41 AM
No, no, no. I am still an implementation manager. The difference is we make the results the Gypsy fortune tellers say (Organizational Change consultants) bear fruit.
Oh, and I NEVER ever bet on football :welcome: Way too many variables.

http://www.360winnett.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/tom2.jpg

Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that!?! What the hell is wrong with you people?!!??!!

bowtown
01-07-2009, 08:45 AM
Well, if I don't throw some of my money away what would the hell would I do with it?

Just PMed you my address.

Rohirrim
01-07-2009, 08:55 AM
No, no, no. I am still an implementation manager. The difference is we make the results the Gypsy fortune tellers say (Organizational Change consultants) bear fruit.

Oh, and I NEVER ever bet on football :welcome: Way too many variables.

My fine, old, Irish grandpa always did very well on the horses. One day, he put his arm around me and said, "Son, let me give you a piece of advice; Never bet on the big shoulders." By that, he meant "football." ;D

TonyR
01-07-2009, 10:10 AM
I feel like we just threw a future Superbowl trophy down the tubes.

Where did you have our defense and Mikey Mastermind's handpicked man to run it, Bob Slowik, in that future Super Bowl dream of yours?

I'd also be curious as to the timeline on this hypothetical "future Superbowl" than Shanny was going to deliver. The next Super Bowl has been 10 years in the making. When did you see if finally happening again? When and where was the lightening going to strike?

baja
01-07-2009, 12:05 PM
We might be better than 7-9 purely in the abstract...but if you look at our schedule, there's virtually no way we'll have a record that is actually better than 7-9.

As I've said before, there's only one scenario involving that schedule where this team can make the postseason. It's the same scenario that involves Bob sleeping with supermodels and Taco spending $ 250.00 at nflshop.com on an authentic Plummer jersey.

Look at some of these non-divisional opponents:

DENVER
Home: Kansas City, Oakland, San Diego, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New England, Dallas, N.Y. Giants
Away: Kansas City, Oakland, San Diego, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Philadelphia, Washington

I think the Broncos this 09 season will be improved over the 08 team but I also agree with So Cal in that it's a brutal schedule so it's tough to compare the two seasons in won/loss records because of the very different schedules.

baja
01-07-2009, 12:08 PM
f*** off, Popps.

LOL did you think you were logged on to Chiefs Planet ?

You come here to eat shiit remember?

Popps
01-07-2009, 12:13 PM
LOL did you think you were logged on to Chiefs Planet ?

You come here to eat shiit remember?

I think I ran him off. I don't know how, but let's not over-think it.

:thumbs:

baja
01-07-2009, 12:20 PM
Absolutely. <b> I feel like we just threw a future Superbowl trophy down the tubes. </b> I'll feel miserable about this decision until it's clear that the new coach can take the rebuilding project to the same heigths that I felt we were headed. The first sign of that will be whether or not this offense regresses this upcoming season.

nah but the argument can be made made that Shanny did by losing at home to Jacksonville in 96 and again in 05 to Pittsburgh. by losing at home in the AFCC game.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 12:21 PM
nah but the argument can be made made that Shanny did by losing at home to Jacksonville in 96 and again in 05 to Pittsburgh. by losing at home in the AFCC game.

Players also have to execute.

Man-Goblin
01-07-2009, 12:31 PM
Players also have to execute.

A lot of people criticized Shanahan heavily for only giving Terrell Davis 14 carries (91 yards) in that Jags playoff game.

TonyR
01-07-2009, 12:47 PM
A lot of people criticized Shanahan heavily for only giving Terrell Davis 14 carries (91 yards) in that Jags playoff game.

That Jags game is a catastrophe that many forget about and that Shanny has been forgiven for after what happened the next two seasons. That 97 team was really good. I always hated Mark Brunell after that.

HAT
01-07-2009, 01:30 PM
I'll restate this in the "Official Prediction Thread for 2009" when it comes, but I'm actually pretty sure all the new coach "haters" are going to end up being the same guys that were the "Shanahan haters".

For most of them, it's a psychological personality type and not an actual belief.

Wrong....the majority of us calling for change were doing so on the belief that a 14 year tenured coach...ANY 14 year tenured coach, had done all he could with said team.

Even if they go 8-8 again....I for one will consider that improvement if it's the right kind of 8-8. Like say 3-5 in the first half and 5-3 in the second half.

Again, most of us that were wanting change were so frustrated with the late season skids that had become the norm with Mike. (not to mention, second half skids in any particular game).

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 01:32 PM
Wrong....the majority of us calling for change were doing so on the belief that a 14 year tenured coach...ANY 14 year tenured coach, had done all he could with said team.

Even if they go 8-8 again....I for one will consider that improvement if it's the right kind of 8-8. Like say 3-5 in the first half and 5-3 in the second half.

Again, most of us that were wanting change were so frustrated with the late season skids that had become the norm with Mike. (not to mention, second half skids in any particular game).

Uh... how can I be wrong today when it's a prediction about I think you'll be acting years down the line?

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 01:36 PM
A lot of people criticized Shanahan heavily for only giving Terrell Davis 14 carries (91 yards) in that Jags playoff game.

There's one way to look at it. Not letting Brunnell complete that late TD to ice the game is another.

Broncomutt
01-07-2009, 03:11 PM
I think we win that game if Perry jogs off the field instead of waltzing like a dude strolling through the park.

I have no evidence, but I believe that's why Shanny axed him right before the playoff run the next year.

Poetic....

Popps
01-07-2009, 03:21 PM
Let's not forget the worst pass interference call in the history of organized football. Take away that call, and we're likely on the way to a rout.

baja
01-07-2009, 03:23 PM
Players also have to execute.

That coach firings should be very rare.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 03:38 PM
That coach firings should be very rare.

Not really...

baja
01-07-2009, 03:53 PM
It's the never ending story in this sport, it's the coaching - no it's the players - no .....

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 04:07 PM
It's the never ending story in this sport, it's the coaching - no it's the players - no .....

How about I put together a special thread just for you and the rest of the people sharing your thought process tonight or tomorrow?

baja
01-07-2009, 04:37 PM
How about I put together a special thread just for you and the rest of the people sharing your thought process tonight or tomorrow?

Well it might help keep my mind off the concern that the world as we know it is about to shift into something unknown.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 04:38 PM
Well it might help keep my mind off the concern that the world as we know it is about to shift into something unknown.

You are one crazy old man. I'll put it together today because tomorrow I've got the kiddo for a few.

Mediator12
01-07-2009, 05:48 PM
It's the never ending story in this sport, it's the coaching - no it's the players - no .....

It's freakin BOTH.

Why does everything have to be one or the other, when in fact it is usually more than one thing that causes a problem? Sports have so many more ACTIVE variables than regular business because of the direct effect of an active living opponent that changes every time you step on the field.

Football is also the most dependent on coaching to succeed of all the major sports. That is why I never bet on anything football related, its way too variable from the time the ball kicks off to the final whistle.

One more thing about sports that is real confusing, because I am a big performance guy that loves innovative stats. In order for stats to be reliable, they must be able to be repeated. Guess what, football is not repeatable scientifically. No two teams are ever the same after playing each other. It is what makes rematches interesting and third time games really interesting. Those are not the same teams that faced each other the last time. However, that makes it more worth trying to look at things from other viewpoints rather than holding to the same old trends.

Popps
01-07-2009, 08:40 PM
It's freakin BOTH.

Why does everything have to be one or the other, when in fact it is usually more than one thing that causes a problem? Sports have so many more ACTIVE variables than regular business because of the direct effect of an active living opponent that changes every time you step on the field.

Football is also the most dependent on coaching to succeed of all the major sports. That is why I never bet on anything football related, its way too variable from the time the ball kicks off to the final whistle.

One more thing about sports that is real confusing, because I am a big performance guy that loves innovative stats. In order for stats to be reliable, they must be able to be repeated. Guess what, football is not repeatable scientifically. No two teams are ever the same after playing each other. It is what makes rematches interesting and third time games really interesting. Those are not the same teams that faced each other the last time. However, that makes it more worth trying to look at things from other viewpoints rather than holding to the same old trends.

Great post, and I think a lot of sensible posters around here have felt like we've been on the same path for too long in a lot of ways. This team's philosophy hasn't evolved much.

It will now, for better or worse.

Hallside
01-11-2009, 07:11 PM
Get it out of your system now, McDaniels Haters?

jhat01
01-11-2009, 07:14 PM
Great post, and I think a lot of sensible posters around here have felt like we've been on the same path for too long in a lot of ways. This team's philosophy hasn't evolved much.

It will now, for better or worse.

Indeed. Stagnant stagnant stagnant. We needed an infusion of excitement, and we got it. This is cool.

Popps
01-11-2009, 07:19 PM
Indeed. Stagnant stagnant stagnant. We needed an infusion of excitement, and we got it. This is cool.

Again, it'll be difficult for our next coach to underperform our last over a decade. If 11 years from now, McDaniels has one only one playoff game, I guess we'll have to fire him. :)

Taco John
01-11-2009, 07:20 PM
Don't forget about the two Superbowls.

TonyR
01-11-2009, 07:22 PM
Don't forget about the two Superbowls.

I'll NEVER forget them, but I HAVE stopped clinging to them...

Popps
01-11-2009, 07:41 PM
Don't forget about the two Superbowls.

I've got reminders in every corner of my home. Those (and he) will never be forgotten.

But, such as life... it's time to move on.

Climb aboard or stay in the past. It's up to you.

broncosteven
01-11-2009, 07:47 PM
I'll NEVER forget them, but I HAVE stopped clinging to them...

I will never stop clinging to them. I was a die hard for 25 years before they won one SB. That is over a quarter of my life. Never thought they would win one let alone 2.

I think Bronco fans now a days are spoiled because of the wins and success. They think they are entitled to winning every year.

They forget how hard it is for a team to field a playoff caliber team year in and year out.

Look at the Cards, they went 61 years without winning anything!

These Fire Shanny guys would have jumped the Cards ship 3 years after their 1st Championship.

Even the Skins knew how hard it is to get a HOF HC, they hired their's twice.

McMastermind
09-20-2009, 05:52 PM
...please. We know you want to get rid of Mike Shanahan, so go ahead and get it out of your system now. Pretty soon, though, it's going to be clear that Shanahan is going nowhere, and the focus will no longer be on whether Shanahan should be here or not, but what happens next.

So get it out now, but please - when that focus shifts to reality, lets keep the discussion on the moves the Broncos are making, and not the man, and have a productive offseason of discussion.

I ****ing love this thread!

Bronx33
09-20-2009, 05:54 PM
Oooooooo SNAP!