Israel attack on Gaza: Fragile peace shattered again

[baja]

e young Palestinian cadets who gathered in Gaza City’s police headquarters on Saturday would have been buzzing with excitement as they prepared for their passing out ceremony.

By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem
Last Updated: 8:34PM GMT 27 Dec 2008

A Palestinian cradles the body of a Hamas policeman as others look for survivors outside the Hamas police headquarters following the Israeli air strike on Gaza City.
Proud mothers and fathers would have been invited to the parade, where the salute was to be taken by Major-General Tawfiq Jaber, the commander of the police force in the Gaza Strip, which has been controlled by the militant Islamist movement, Hamas, since June 2007.
What nobody on the ground knew was that, just as the band played and the cadets formed up to march past Gen Jaber, they were in the cross-hairs of the Israeli air force.
It is not yet known if the gathering was hit by a guided missile or, as is more likely, a laser-guided bomb. What is certain is that a huge explosion ripped through the scene, killing at least 40 people, including the General.
Within minutes fifty sites, all Hamas police and security force facilities located from Rafah in the south to Gaza City in the north, were attacked by 60 jet fighters. Saturday is a normal working day in Gaza and all these buildings were occupied.
Plumes of thick black smoke rose into the grey winter sky the length and breadth of the Strip as the first wave of Israeli air strikes took place.
F-16 jets were heard overhead, along with the clatter of helicopter gunships and the whine of engines from unmanned drones.
At ground level, the air was filled the sound of ambulance sirens and the wailing of relatives gathered at Gaza’s numerous mortuaries, places that have seen plenty of carnage-fuelled grief over the years.
Once the smoke and dust cleared at the police headquarters, rescuers gingerly began searching the scene for signs of life. There were few.
Most of the fatalities appeared to be in uniform, although it is probable civilians were killed in the police compound.
With Israel restricting the entry of foreign reporters to Gaza, authoritative accounts of what happened came from local sources. The Telegraph’s fixer in Gaza went into mourning after losing a cousin in the attack.
A local television cameraman filmed uniformed bodies piled up on top of each other as all around the wounded writhed in pain.
Rescuers carried those showing signs of life to cars and ambulances, while others tried to revive the unconscious. Several of the rescuers beat their heads and shouted: "Allahu akbar (God is greatest)." One badly wounded, prostrate man quietly recited verses from the Koran.
Islam Shahwan, the Hamas police spokesman, gave the death toll at the police headquarters as at least forty. This was the most prominent target of Israel’s most punishing assault on the Gaza Strip since the end of the Second Intifada in 2004.
The Israeli government gave the green light for the military operation at a meeting of the National Security Cabinet on Christmas Day. The NSC met to deliberate how to deal with the expiry of a six-month ceasefire between Israel and Hamas on Dec 19.
Hopes for a renewal of the truce had been scuppered by tit-for-tat exchanges that began when Israeli ground forces raided Gaza in November. Their aim was to close down a tunnel linking Gaza with neighbouring Egypt. Militants were preparing to use this to smuggle in rockets to launch at southern Israel.
That ground operation, during which three Palestinian fighters were killed, sealed the fate of the ceasefire. The militants began to fire rockets in large numbers at the towns of southern Israel for the first time in months, placing commanders under immediate pressure to respond.
Israel will hold a general election in February and politicians cannot appear anything but robust in dealing with the threat posed by rocket fire from Gaza.
After the NSC’s decision to authorise a military operation, the only question was what kind of attack would follow. Israel has used ground forces before, but this has never provided a lasting solution to the menace of the rockets launched from Gaza.
This time, Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister, Ehud Barak, the defence minister, and other security chiefs decided on something quite different.
Instead of a ground offensive or pinprick air attacks, they would order a massive air assault on all known Hamas security targets. Hamas operatives did not fire all the rockets launched from Gaza - other militant groups such as the Islamic Jihad Party fired many. But Israel believes that Hamas, as the governing power in Gaza, could be held responsible and targeted accordingly.
The office of Ehud Olmert, Israel’s outgoing prime minister, issued a statement explaining that the "cabinet has tasked the prime minister, foreign minister and defense minister with deciding on the time and manner of the said action". this added: "Following a unanimous decision, the three have decided on the Israeli Air Force strike which took place this morning. Israel stresses that it will continue to take action against the terror attacks and rocket fire emanating form Gaza against Israeli citizens.’’
After the first round of air attacks, the Israeli air force sent up patrols to deal with the predicted wave of retaliatory rocket launches.
After the initial round of strikes, sources inside Gaza reported more explosions as the air force sought to destroy rocket-launching parties.
However, they failed to stop all the retaliation. Late in the morning, an Israeli man was killed by a rocket in the Israeli town of Netivot. He was the first Israeli to die as a result of Palestinian rocket attacks since June.
In total, nine Israelis have been killed by rockets launched from Gaza since 2005, when it withdrew from the territory and dismantled all settlements.
Yesterday alone saw over 200 Palestinian deaths.



More on Palestinian Authority
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Israel attacks Hamas after mystery blast
Fatah orders its fleeing fighters back to Gaza
Israelis seize arms shipment
Suicide bomb kills five in Israeli costal city
Militants 'invited into Palestinian cabinet'
More on ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/3981502/Israel-attack-on-Gaza-Fragile-peace-shattered-again.html

[Bronco Bob]

And then people wonder why the Arabs hate Israel so much.

[enjolras]

What a mess...

Of course we immediately come out and point the finger at Hamas. I have no idea what the truth is, but why do we have to say anything about it at all? The blanket support for Isreal is foolish. I'm tired of it. Why are we so beholden to them?

[baja]

What a mess...

Of course we immediately come out and point the finger at Hamas. I have no idea what the truth is, but why do we have to say anything about it at all? The blanket support for Isreal is foolish. I'm tired of it. Why are we so beholden to them?

It is a mess and I think we all know it is going to end badly one day. I doubt there is a good guy or bad guy in all this. It is very complex, very long lived and very volatile.

[Bronco Bob]

What a mess...

Of course we immediately come out and point the finger at Hamas. I have no idea what the truth is, but why do we have to say anything about it at all? The blanket support for Isreal is foolish. I'm tired of it. Why are we so beholden to them?

I don't get why someone would kill cops in retaliation for terrorist attacks.
Because they were an easier target than the terrorists? In my opinion
anyone that kills a cop is scum and deserves to be drug out and shot.
The thing that pisses me off is my tax money is used to support these
murderers. If they want to be bastards, let them fend for themselves.

[The Lone Bolt]

It is a mess and I think we all know it is going to end badly one day. I doubt there is a good guy or bad guy in all this. It is very complex, very long lived and very volatile.

Baja for once we are in complete agreement. Never thought I'd see the day.;)

[baja]

I don't get why someone would kill cops in retaliation for terrorist attacks.
Because they were an easier target than the terrorists? In my opinion
anyone that kills a cop is scum and deserves to be drug out and shot.
The thing that pisses me off is my tax money is used to support these
murderers. If they want to be bastards, let them fend for themselves.

Unfortunately if we let them fend for themselves they would clean house of all that oppose them. They are not entirely wrong but they are far from right either.

[baja]

Baja for once we are in complete agreement. Never thought I'd see the day.;)

Maybe if we discuss what to do about it we can get back to normal. ;D

[mhgaffney]

The UN blessed the creation of Israel in 1948 with a security council resolution (of course, the Palestinians were never consulted)...

and the UN could resolve the present conflict IF it was allowed to do so. But every single time the UN has attempted to intervene the US has used its security council veto -- to shield Israel from any/all accountability.

As a result - the UN has been powerless. I'm sorry -- you might not like this version of events -- but it happens to be correct.

The problem is a political one -- and needs a political solution. But it will never happen until Americans in large enough numbers DEMAND it.

The problem is that US Mideast policy is presently controlled by Israel's lobby here in the US -- which scares and silences anyone who speaks out for justice. This is the reality.

Once upon a time -- under JFK -- the US was an honest broker in the region. But things changed under LBJ -- the US tilted toward Israel -- and the rest is history. The lone exception was Jimmy Carter -- who had some independence and to his credit used it to further peace.

But even Carter is now under attack -- for speaking the truth in his book PEACE - NOT APARTHEID. Carter was essentially muzzled at the Democratic convention last summer -- allowed only a brief appearance -- and no speech. Why? Because the Democratic Party supports Israel no matter what -- right or wrong -- and mostly wrong.

Obama and Hillary are Zionists -- not peacemakers.

What is happening in Gaza -- may soon be overshadowed by much bigger events in Asia. More US troops will arrive in January. The region is set to explode and it can happen at any moment.

MHG

[W*GS]

Thanks for the as-expected anti-Jew view, gaffney. Oh, and the "nukes are about to fall on us" conclusion was also appreciated.

Them God-damned Jews are gonna be the end of us all, eh?

[Spider]

The UN blessed the creation of Israel in 1948 with a security council resolution (of course, the Palestinians were never consulted)...

and the UN could resolve the present conflict IF it was allowed to do so. But every single time the UN has attempted to intervene the US has used its security council veto -- to shield Israel from any/all accountability.

As a result - the UN has been powerless. I'm sorry -- you might not like this version of events -- but it happens to be correct.

The problem is a political one -- and needs a political solution. But it will never happen until Americans in large enough numbers DEMAND it.

The problem is that US Mideast policy is presently controlled by Israel's lobby here in the US -- which scares and silences anyone who speaks out for justice. This is the reality.

Once upon a time -- under JFK -- the US was an honest broker in the region. But things changed under LBJ -- the US tilted toward Israel -- and the rest is history. The lone exception was Jimmy Carter -- who had some independence and to his credit used it to further peace.

But even Carter is now under attack -- for speaking the truth in his book PEACE - NOT APARTHEID. Carter was essentially muzzled at the Democratic convention last summer -- allowed only a brief appearance -- and no speech. Why? Because the Democratic Party supports Israel no matter what -- right or wrong -- and mostly wrong.

Obama and Hillary are Zionists -- not peacemakers.

What is happening in Gaza -- may soon be overshadowed by much bigger events in Asia. More US troops will arrive in January. The region is set to explode and it can happen at any moment.

MHG
Space balls was the best Sci Fi movie have ever seen

[cutthemdown]

we already have a thread going about this. I said days ago the attack was coming and we started a good thread. This should just be merged with the other thread.

[baja]

It's big news and should not be buried in another thread so quit whining that your precious thread might have to share post count.

[mhgaffney]

Even despite the US Security Council veto -- which has prevented a peace settlement,

the US has still voted with the international community on enough occasions that

today Israel is in violation of many more UN Security Council resolutions than Saddam Hussein ever was. This is not anti semitic anything -- it is the simple truth.

And you morons who don't know shyte from shinola about the history of this conflict are pathetic -- have your biased heads a zillion miles up yer butt. You can call me anything you please. It's all nonsense.

Most Israelis and most American Jews support a land for peace deal with the Palestinians. However, the US power elite -- including Obama and Hillary - - and AIPAC (the Israel lobby) -- are backing a small group of extremists in Israel who refuse peace talks and a political deal. They are in political contol of Israeli and are determined to tough it out -- with US support -- to thumb their nose at the world and dictate their version of "peace."

Of course, their version of peace means slavery for the Palestinians. What exists in Israel-Palestine today is much worse than what prevailed in South Africa under Apartheid.

If Jesus were alive today he would be standing up for the Palestinians, who have justice on their side.

And many of you bastards who call yourselves Christians are lost souls -- who don't know the first thing about what Jesus taught.

You are Chtistians in name only.

MHG

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Even despite the US Security Council veto -- which has prevented a peace settlement,

the US has still voted with the international community on enough occasions that

today Israel is in violation of many more UN Security Council resolutions than Saddam Hussein ever was. This is not anti semitic anything -- it is the simple truth.

And you morons who don't know shyte from shinola about the history of this conflict are pathetic -- have your biased heads a zillion miles up yer butt. You can call me anything you please. It's all nonsense.

Most Israelis and most American Jews support a land for peace deal with the Palestinians. However, the US power elite -- including Obama and Hillary - - and AIPAC (the Israel lobby) -- are backing a small group of extremists in Israel who refuse peace talks and a political deal. They are in political contol of Israeli and are determined to tough it out -- with US support -- to thumb their nose at the world and dictate their version of "peace."

Of course, their version of peace means slavery for the Palestinians. What exists in Israel-Palestine today is much worse than what prevailed in South Africa under Apartheid.

If Jesus were alive today he would be standing up for the Palestinians, who have justice on their side.

And many of you bastards who call yourselves Christians are lost souls -- who don't know the first thing about what Jesus taught.

You are Chtistians in name only.

MHG

QFT.

Great post! :thumbsup:

[cutthemdown]

It's big news and should not be buried in another thread so quit whining that your precious thread might have to share post count.

It just makes it hard to really debate it jumping between two threads discussing the same thing. You lose track of who said what and in what thread and then the discussion gets jumbled all up.

Go ahead and think it's some stupid ego trip thing.......or whatever it is you do.

[Meck77]

What a mess...

Of course we immediately come out and point the finger at Hamas. I have no idea what the truth is, but why do we have to say anything about it at all? The blanket support for Isreal is foolish. I'm tired of it. Why are we so beholden to them?

Take a look at our presidential cabinet.

[elsid13]

I don't get why someone would kill cops in retaliation for terrorist attacks.
Because they were an easier target than the terrorists? In my opinion
anyone that kills a cop is scum and deserves to be drug out and shot.
The thing that pisses me off is my tax money is used to support these
murderers. If they want to be bastards, let them fend for themselves.

It very easy to understand why Israel targeted security center. Hamas is the governing body in Gaza strip, unlike the West Bank which is controlled by more moderated former PLO group. When the 6 month true ended Hamas security forces allowed militant groups (some thier own) to fire rockets into Israel. Did you see the story were one the rocket misfired and end up killing folks in Gaza? Israel hope to force those Palestinean in Gaza to lose confidence in Hamas and either vote them out of power or force them back into the peace talks.

[W*GS]

More "it's all the fault of those filthy Jews" crap from gaffney, and the approval from LABF.

You two oughta make up your own little SS unit.

[mhgaffney]

The same phenom has just repeated itself. Once again, the US has used its UN veto to shield Israel from accountability -- so it can continue the slaughter in Gaza. The UN is powerless to intervene to stop the killing -- because of the US role.

Did the US media even report this?
MHG

US veto blocks UN anti-Israel resolution
Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:17:23 GMT
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=79727&sectionid=351020202

The UN Security Council has been unable to force an end to Israeli attacks against Gaza due to the intervention of the United States.

Washington once again used its veto powers on Sunday to block a resolution calling for an end to the massive ongoing Israeli attacks against the Gaza Strip.

The council has only been able to issue a 'non-binding' statement that calls on Israel to voluntarily bring all its military activities in the besieged region to an immediate end.

The statement comes as Israel has begun a fresh wave of air strikes on Gaza on Sunday, killing at least six people. At least 230 people were killed and 800 wounded in similar attacks on Saturday. The number of Palestinians deaths has so far risen to 271.

The council called on the parties to address the humanitarian crisis in the territory but has not criticized the Israeli air attacks.

Croatian UN Ambassador Neven Jurica read out the non-binding statement on behalf of the 15-member body that "called for an immediate halt to all violence" and on the parties "to stop immediately all military activities."

"The members of the Security Council expressed serious concern at the escalation of the situation in Gaza," he said, as the president of the council.

The council also requested the opening of border crossings into Gaza to address the serious humanitarian and economic needs in Gaza and to ensure medical treatment and a continuous supply of food and fuel.

US representative to the UNSC, Zalmay Khalilzad, defended the Israeli move, saying Tel Aviv has the right to self-defense.

"I regret the loss of any of all innocent life," he said, adding that Hamas rockets precipitated this situation.

Palestinian fighters in the Gaza Strip say they fire rockets into Israel in retaliation for the daily Israeli attacks against them. Unlike the state-of-the-art Israeli weapons and ammunition, the home-made Qassam rockets rarely cause casualties.

The US, a staunch ally to Israel, has so far vetoed over 40 anti-Israeli resolutions sought by the council since 1972.

Since 2004, Washington has prevented the adoption of four other resolutions that called for Tel Aviv to halt its operations in the Gaza Strip.

DB/AA/DT

[cutthemdown]

How about a UN security council resolution that tells Gaff to STFU? I bet no one would veto that.

[mosca]

Israel hope to force those Palestinean in Gaza to lose confidence in Hamas and either vote them out of power or force them back into the peace talks.
Killing over 200 people and wounding 800 more with missile strikes is not the way to do that. If anything, the people there will now support Hamas more. This makes no sense.

[cutthemdown]

Killing over 200 people and wounding 800 more with missile strikes is not the way to do that. If anything, the people there will now support Hamas more. This makes no sense.

What about Abbas sending in his security forces after Hamas weakened?

Palestinian civil war anyone?

Oh and Obama welcome to the mideast peace process, ain't it special!!!!

[elsid13]

Killing over 200 people and wounding 800 more with missile strikes is not the way to do that. If anything, the people there will now support Hamas more. This makes no sense.

The reason people supported/elected Hamas in the first place was because they provide better civil services then the PLO(which was seen as corrupt and ineffective). The Israelis cabinet is trying to show the population that Hamas can not defend them or provide the basic government services. That not course of I would have chosen, but that the strategy the Israelis have decide on. Plus the believe they need to make statement to other nations in the area.

[cutthemdown]

The reason people supported/elected Hamas in the first place was because they provide better civil services then the PLO(which was seen as corrupt and ineffective). The Israelis cabinet is trying to show the population that Hamas can not defend them or provide the basic government services. That not course of I would have chosen, but that the strategy the Israelis have decide on. Plus the believe they need to make statement to other nations in the area.

The people of Israel are supporting Benjamin Netanyahoo right now in the polls for the next leader of the govt. He's a real hawk. He would probably lead Israel to an all out war to try and finish this once and for all. Hell he may even want to go back and take on Hezbollah again.

[baja]

Killing over 200 people and wounding 800 more with missile strikes is not the way to do that. If anything, the people there will now support Hamas more. This makes no sense.

This is the George Bush plan, Shock & Awe

[cutthemdown]

This is the George Bush plan, Shock & Awe

I predicted it would be bad. Israelis became fed up. Once Netenyahoo started to do good in the polls you knew it was bad. Once the govt thinks the Israeli people want to see force used you can bet force will be coming.

I think Israel and Abbas are in cahoots. I mean abbas blamed hamas for this. Those are his people being killed and he blames Hamas? I think Israel has told Abbas we are going to bomb hamas into the ground, we are going to occupy gaza, we are going to hunt and kill hamas leadership, and when we are done we are going to pull out and you can mop up Hamas and take control of Gaza.

[mhgaffney]

Cut,

So you support this?

Whatever happened to Homo sapiens?

[Rigs11]

Thanks for the as-expected anti-Jew view, gaffney. Oh, and the "nukes are about to fall on us" conclusion was also appreciated.

Them God-damned Jews are gonna be the end of us all, eh?

Here comes wigged to rescue the poor Jews. Right on schedule.

[W*GS]

Rigs11, don't you have goose-stepping practice to attend?

[cutthemdown]

Cut,

So you support this?

Whatever happened to Homo sapiens?

That's a good question and I will answer it.

I support the right for Israel to respond but I think this is getting out of control. I'd rather see them occupy Gaza then bomb Gaza. The fact it's our jet's they are using does concern me. America doesn't gain anything by this and in fact loses because more people will hate us.

I don't support Hamas in any way though.

For sure though you are right if little kids being blown up was something I supported that would be a bad thing. IMO Hamas doesn't have many targets that are high value. i'd rather see Israel risk troops if its that important.

Also I'd like to see Egypt open the border and let refugees and injured come out to get medical care etc. Hamas gunmen and Egyptians both will shoot to stop people from leaving.

IMO civilians should always be allowed to run from fighting. Making it like Stalingrad is crazy.

[Obushma]

Here comes wigged to rescue the poor Jews. Right on schedule.

Funny thing is, Wags doesnt even know what end of the political spectrum he sits on. Is he a Zionist Jew today, maybe he'll come in and play a Neo-Con, or maybe he'll put on his moderate disguise.

Wigs is a deflector. You ever seen a post where Wags comes on here and states his opinion? Wigs is a paid profesional troll, why anyone argues or listenes to anything he has to say is beyond me.

[baja]

Funny thing is, Wags doesnt even know what end of the political spectrum he sits on. Is he a Zionist Jew today, maybe he'll come in and play a Neo-Con, or maybe he'll put on his moderate disguise.

Wigs is a deflector. You ever seen a post where Wags comes on here and states his opinion? Wigs is a paid profesional troll, why anyone argues or listenes to anything he has to say is beyond me.

What is a paid professional troll and who pays them?

[mhgaffney]

Whether paid or unpaid -- troll does cover it.

W*gs has no beliefs, no morals, no values, no principles, and no philosophy -- of his own. He lives to attack and smear others.

[Garcia Bronco]

I just wish the US would stay out of it and Isreal can do what they want. Which means they would probably eliminate all of them. The problem is they would war with Iran and oil production would fail and prices would go through the roof.

[W*GS]

Funny thing is, Wags doesnt even know what end of the political spectrum he sits on. Is he a Zionist Jew today, maybe he'll come in and play a Neo-Con, or maybe he'll put on his moderate disguise.

Wigs is a deflector. You ever seen a post where Wags comes on here and states his opinion? Wigs is a paid profesional troll, why anyone argues or listenes to anything he has to say is beyond me.

Popping back up from the sewer of your ideology, I see.

If you've read gaffney's bilge, on just about any issue, you know he's a liar and a fraud, who uses OM mainly to advertise his books in the hope that he gets a few sales. He profits off the tragedy of strangers.

Figures you'd stand up for him. You're scum.

[W*GS]

Whether paid or unpaid -- troll does cover it.

W*gs has no beliefs, no morals, no values, no principles, and no philosophy -- of his own. He lives to attack and smear others.

This from the guy whose existence revolves around bashing Jews and making personal profit from 9/11, and who has no qualms about telling gratuitous lies in order to do so.

If anyone is suspect around here, it's you, gaffney.

[epicSocialism4tw]

In reading an AP article on msn.com, it appears that their language has changed regarding Israel. Instead of treating Hamas as a terrorist organization, they call its enforcement arm a "security" force. Instead of destroying a building, they destroyed a "women's wing" of a building.

Its little suggestions like these that get the spin done.

[Rigs11]

I asked wigged a long time ago if he was jewish and if that's why he always freaked out and starting calling people nazis when they questioned israels motives. he couldn't even anwer that question.

[W*GS]

I asked wigged a long time ago if he was jewish and if that's why he always freaked out and starting calling people nazis when they questioned israels motives. he couldn't even anwer that question.

I'm an atheist, and no, I wasn't raised as a Jew.

You and gaffney go far beyond suspicion of Israel's motives, and it's disingenuous of you to claim otherwise.

[alkemical]

This is the George Bush plan, Shock & Awe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekhinah

[Rohirrim]

This has been going on my entire life, and before. Ireland finally realized the killing had to stop. It took a few hundred years, but they finally came to a realization. How long will it take for Israel and the Arabs to come to that realization? Who knows? I just wish we would get out of it and stay out of it.

[mhgaffney]

In reading an AP article on msn.com, it appears that their language has changed regarding Israel. Instead of treating Hamas as a terrorist organization, they call its enforcement arm a "security" force. Instead of destroying a building, they destroyed a "women's wing" of a building.

Its little suggestions like these that get the spin done.

FYI, Hamas is NOT a terrorist organization. It is a political party -- with various subdivisions.

Hamas runs schools, medical clinics and other social programs that help hundreds of thousands of people -- in Gaza.

One wing of the party is para military -- which should not surprise anyone.

Hamas came into existence in the early 1980s and grew in strength largely because of corruption in the secular PLO.

Israel played a major role in those early years -- doing everything possible to help Hamas. Why? Because this weakened Arafat. At some point this strategy succeeded. In the end Arafat was weakened -- and so now Israel gets to deal with the monster it helped to create.

This is why I have no sympathy for the Israelis. The Zionist strategty has always been to divide and conquer. The strategy is summarized as follows: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

[Garcia Bronco]

FYI, Hamas is NOT a terrorist organization. It is a political party -- with various subdivisions.

Hamas runs schools, medical clinics and other social programs that help hundreds of thousands of people -- in Gaza.

One wing of the party is para military -- which should not surprise anyone.

Hamas came into existence in the early 1980s and grew in strength largely because of corruption in the secular PLO.

Israel played a major role in those early years -- doing everything possible to help Hamas. Why? Because this weakened Arafat. At some point this strategy succeeded. In the end Arafat was weakened -- and so now Israel gets to deal with the monster it helped to create.

This is why I have no sympathy for the Israelis. The Zionist strategty has always been to divide and conquer. The strategy is summarized as follows: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

And it's also a terrorist organization. They launched explosives at Isreal just last week.

[Smiling Assassin27]

And it's also a terrorist organization. They launched explosives at Isreal just last week.

While I deplore and condemn Israel's actions as being totally disproportionate to Hamas' launch of rockets at them, I gotta say that Hamas is not merely a political party, but a political party AND para-military organization. This organization has been deemed a terrorist organization by many more nations than the US and are not even allowed to exist in Jordan.

It builds schools and hospitals for its people but then uses them as shields and shelter for their terrorist attacks. As I recall, even their charter says that the killing of the Jews is their goal in order to bring about judgment day. Hamas is as much to blame for this mess as Israel is, though what Israel has done goes WAY beyond legitimate defense.

[mhgaffney]

You guys are merely regurgitating the anti Hamas propaganda that is pervasive here in the US. You don't know any better.

The fact is that Hamas won the 2006 elections fair and square -- and Israel could have ended the Qassam rocket attacks at any time simply by sitting down and negotiating with the Hamas leaders.

It really and truly is as simple as that.

But Israel refuses to talk. Why? Simple. Because their greatest fear is and always has been the prospect that negotiations might actually succeed. The threat of peace terrifies Israel's leaders more than any war.

I'm very sorry to report: this is the fact.

MHG

[mhgaffney]

As for the Qassam rockets -- let us be very clear.

We are talking about a weapon that is militarily inconsequential. These are homemade rockets -- and are extremely crude -- something you would make in your garage or basement. Half the time they mis fire -- and even when launched successsfully -- they are wildly inaccurate. Usually they land far from their target. Only a hand full of Israelis have been killed/injured by these rockets over a period of years.

The Qassams are militarily useless. Their significance is mostly symbolic -- and psychological -- as a sign of resistance.

[cutthemdown]

As for the Qassam rockets -- let us be very clear.

We are talking about a weapon that is militarily inconsequential. These are homemade rockets -- and are extremely crude -- something you would make in your garage or basement. Half the time they mis fire -- and even when launched successsfully -- they are wildly inaccurate. Usually they land far from their target. Only a hand full of Israelis have been killed/injured by these rockets over a period of years.

The Qassams are militarily useless. Their significance is mostly symbolic -- and psychological -- as a sign of resistance.

They launch these missiles with no regard to whom they might strike. That's why they are terrorists. If they don't do anything to really harm Israel why do they fire them? Also how would any deal Israel makes lead to them not being fired?

Israel could give into every demand the UN wants and still the rockets would be fired. Israel really has no incentive to make peace.

[mhgaffney]

Contrast the impotent Qassams with Israel's advanced weaponry -- US made F-16s delivering huge US made bombs of enormous size --

and US made helicopter gunships firing incredible volleys of US made bullets and rockets --

In short, it's David (Hamas) versus Goliath (Israel). Indeed, the biblical comparison is not even accurate -- because it vastly understates the enormous disparity in fire power.

The lightly armed Palestinians are like mice under the feet of the dinosaurs. No wonder the world supports the underdog.

[mhgaffney]

They launch these missiles with no regard to whom they might strike. That's why they are terrorists. If they don't do anything to really harm Israel why do they fire them? Also how would any deal Israel makes lead to them not being fired?

Israel could give into every demand the UN wants and still the rockets would be fired. Israel really has no incentive to make peace.

No, you are wrong. Israel could have ended the rocket attacks simply by starting negotiations. Which they refused and still refuse to do.

Hamas has honored truces in the past -- but each time Israel launched extra judicial assassinations of Hamas leaders. So Hamas started up the rocket attacks again.

What is interesting is that Israel specifically targetted for execution those Hamas leaders who were perceived as more moderate. This is no mere coincidence. Israel has always sought to toss gas on every fire -- and make things even worse.

[W*GS]

FYI, Hamas is NOT a terrorist organization. It is a political party -- with various subdivisions.

Since when does a mere political party use suicide bombers to achieve its aims?

[mhgaffney]

Cut,

I suggest you check out this piece by Neve Gordon, a professor at Ben Gurion University in Israel. I agree with his analysis -- and he agrees with me about Hamas. MHG

December 29, 2008

Violence and Lies

What, Exactly, is Israel's Mission?
http://www.counterpunch.org/gordon12292008.html

By NEVE GORDON

The first bombardment took three minutes and forty seconds. Sixty Israeli F-16 fighter jets bombed fifty sites in Gaza, killing over two hundred Palestinians, and wounding close to a thousand more.

A few hours after the deadly strike, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert convened a press conference in Tel-Aviv. With Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni sitting on his right and Defense Minister Ehud Barak on his left, he declared: “It may take time, and each and every one of us must be patient so we can complete the mission.”

But what exactly, one might ask, is Israel’s mission?

Although Olmert did not say as much, the “mission” includes four distinct objectives.

The first is the destruction of Hamas, a totally unrealistic goal. Even though the loss of hundreds of cadres and some key leaders will no doubt hurt the organization, Hamas is a robust political movement with widespread grassroots support, and it is unlikely to surrender or capitulate to Israeli demands following a military assault. Ironically, Israel’s attempt to destroy Hamas using military force has always ended up strengthening the organization, thus corroborating the notion that power produces its own vulnerability.

The second objective has to do with Israel’s upcoming elections. The assault on Gaza is also being carried out to help Kadima and Labor defeat Likud and its leader Benjamin Netanyhu, who is currently ahead in the polls. It is not coincidental that Netanyahu’s two main competitors, Livni and Barak, were invited to the press conference – since, after the assault, it will be more difficult for Netanyahu to characterize them as “soft” on the Palestinians. Whether or not the devastation in Gaza will help Livni defeat Netanyhu or help Barak gain votes in the February elections is difficult to say, but the strategy of competing with a warmonger like Netanyhu by beating the drums of war says a great deal about all three major contenders.

The third objective involves the Israeli military. After its notable humiliation in Lebanon during the summer of 2006, the IDF has been looking for opportunities to reestablish its global standing. Last Spring it used Syria as its laboratory and now it has decided to focus on Gaza. Emphasizing the mere three minutes and forty seconds it took to bomb fifty sites is just one the ways the Israeli military aims to restore its international reputation.

Finally, Hamas and Fatah have not yet reached an agreement regarding how to proceed when Mahmoud Abbas ends his official term as President of the Palestinian National Authority on January 9th, 2009. One of the outcomes of this assault is that Abbas will remain in power for a while longer since Hamas will be unable to mobilize its supporters in order to force him to resign.

What is clearly missing from this list of Israeli objectives is the attempt to halt the firing of Qassam rockets into Israel’s southern towns. Unlike the objectives I mentioned, which are not discussed by government officials, this one is presented by the government as the operation’s primary objective. Yet, the government is actively misleading the public, since Israel could have put an end to the rockets a long time ago.

Indeed, there was relative quiet during the six-months truce with Hamas, a quiet that was broken most often as a reaction to Israeli violence: that is, following the extra-judicial execution of a militant or the imposition of a total blockade which prevented basic goods, like food stuff and medicine, from entering the Gaza Strip. Rather than continuing the truce, the Israeli government has once again chosen to adopt strategies of violence that are tragically akin to the one’s deployed by Hamas, only the Israeli ones are much more lethal.

If the Israeli government really cared about its citizens and the country’s long term ability to sustain itself in the Middle East, it would abandon the use of violence and talk with its enemies.

Neve Gordon is the chair of the Department of Politics and Government, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Israel, and is the author of Israel’s Occupation, University of California Press, 2008. His website is www.israelsoccupation.info

[W*GS]

If the Palestinians (Hamas and Fatah both) government really cared about themselves and their nation's long term ability to sustain itself in the Middle East, it would abandon the use of violence and talk with their enemies, instead of using suicide bombers and being Iran's bitches.

Fixed it for ya.

[Rigs11]

Yeah bombing runs are better and more civilized.

[cutthemdown]

Gaff you should have read all my posts. I said this attack is more because Netenyahoo had started doing so well in the polls. He's a total hawk that makes even Bush JR seem like a pacifist. I also said Israel lives in a bubble. Once the people of Israel start to want some blood, some revenge, some payback, some justice, whatever you want to call it, you can bet there govt will oblige.

Just like USA wanted to see bombs drop after 9-11, they gave it to us.

I guess I don't see things as right and wrong, only what is, why, and what can USA do to gain from it, or not be hurt by it.

Of course Israel knows it can't wipe out Hamas that is hyperbole.

As far as the rockets go by firing them Hamas gives Israel just what it needs for the USA to convince the American people it is just. Hamas can't control the militants and because of that Israel will always have what it needs to keep the conflict going.

That and Hamas has done some really horrific attacks on civilians in the past. For many Israelis they can never be forgiven for that.

[cutthemdown]

Yeah bombing runs are better and more civilized.

any attacks directed at civilians are uncivilized.

[Garcia Bronco]

You guys are merely regurgitating the anti Hamas propaganda that is pervasive here in the US. You don't know any better.

The fact is that Hamas won the 2006 elections fair and square -- and Israel could have ended the Qassam rocket attacks at any time simply by sitting down and negotiating with the Hamas leaders.

It really and truly is as simple as that.

But Israel refuses to talk. Why? Simple. Because their greatest fear is and always has been the prospect that negotiations might actually succeed. The threat of peace terrifies Israel's leaders more than any war.

I'm very sorry to report: this is the fact.

MHG

I doubt it. The language of your conclusions tell us all we need to know about your feelings. It's pathetic, but then you also think that our Government staged the moon landing or some other such garbage. The bottom line is they bombed people and now they are getting it back in spades.

[Garcia Bronco]

As for the Qassam rockets -- let us be very clear.

We are talking about a weapon that is militarily inconsequential. These are homemade rockets -- and are extremely crude -- something you would make in your garage or basement. Half the time they mis fire -- and even when launched successsfully -- they are wildly inaccurate. Usually they land far from their target. Only a hand full of Israelis have been killed/injured by these rockets over a period of years.

The Qassams are militarily useless. Their significance is mostly symbolic -- and psychological -- as a sign of resistance.

Can I come by then and let one loose on your crib? STFU.

[mhgaffney]

You guys are pathetic apologists for state terror -- which is happening on a vastly greater scale than anything a few Palestinians can muster.

As I indicated -- it is not even David versus Goliath. The biblical comparison fails to do justice to the disparity in firepower being unleashed in Gaza.

Neve Gordon teaches at Ben Gurion University -- in Beersheba -- just down the road from Gaza -- and is not only chairman of the department of political science there but also has authored a book about the issue. I think he knows of what he speaks, indeed, knows a hell of a lot better than the knee jerks on this board, who merely mouth the familiar political cliches learned from watching US TV.

The violence in N Ireland dids not abate until the Brits swallowed their pride and sat down and negotiated with the IRA -- and it's reasonable to believe that the same pattern will prevail in Palestine.

Meanwhile, the whole world is watching.

Even though the grisly scenes of the attack are NOT being shown to Americans on US TV everywhere else around the globe people are seeing the uncut unedited version of events -- watching in horror -- I might add.

Despite Israel's ban on the press in Gaza -- to keep the world from knowing the facts, enough is getting out. The world is seeing dead children and body parts -- and this is a PR disaster for the USA.

The world is not stupid. The planet clearly understands - even if the knee jerks on this board do not -- what is going on here. America is just as responsible for the violence as Israel. After all, Israel is using US-made F-16s, US-made helicopters, US-made bombs and equipment, even US-made caterpillar bulldozers to demolish the homes of Palestinians.

The world also sees through the transparent lies of virtually every US politician (with the notable exception of Ron Paul), who continue to insist upon America and Israel's right to view the world as a free fire zone.

Raise your head, insist upon your land, and your G-d-given rights, and we will bomb-bomb-bomb you back into the stone age.

This message is wearing very very thin. In fact, it doesn't wash with the world any more.

MHG

[cutthemdown]

Gaff just because once pissed off Israel a mismatch for these terrorists doesn't mean anything. They should not allow any rockets to be fired when they know the result will be a total mismatch once Israel get's pissed.

Would you be happier if Israel just launched crude missiles to kill whoever? I mean they have killed what 250 militants for 50 civilians? That shows they are at least trying to keep the civilian deaths down. In the past, WW2, etc, countries just carpet bombed the enemy.

[alkemical]

Yeah bombing runs are better and more civilized.

lol, have you gotten your sense of humor yet? Trust me... i know man...i know. I get it.

[alkemical]

any attacks directed at civilians are uncivilized.

Wow civilized war? tell me when that happened.

[mhgaffney]

Gaff just because once pissed off Israel a mismatch for these terrorists doesn't mean anything. They should not allow any rockets to be fired when they know the result will be a total mismatch once Israel get's pissed.

Would you be happier if Israel just launched crude missiles to kill whoever? I mean they have killed what 250 militants for 50 civilians? That shows they are at least trying to keep the civilian deaths down. In the past, WW2, etc, countries just carpet bombed the enemy.

Cut, you are failing to see the situation as it is. You need to ask the deeper question: Why have these 1.5 million Palestinians been crowded into Gaza in the first place?

Israel/Palestine is their homeland, after all. The land of Palestine belongs to them every bit as much as it belongs to the Jews. The Palestinians have no less a claim.

So why are they not free to share the land and pursue their own dreams and their own happiness? The reason is because they are unwanted. The Israeli government regards them as surplus humanity. I am referring to the so called "demographic problem." This is a polite way of saying that they cannot be allowed to live in their homeland on an equal footing with Jews because their sheer numbers would pollute the racial purity of the Jewish nation.

This is the underlying issue -- and why the Palestinians have been crowded into a narrow strip of desert -- in fact -- the world's largest concentration camp.

It is yet another example of racial Apartheid -- the very same "solution" cooked up by the racists in S Africa, where blacks were segregated into separate Bantustans because they were unwanted -- to keep them out of sight (and out of mind) of the white minority racist rulers.

The underlying issue is no different in Gaza. The firing by Hamas of Qassam rockets into Israel - militarily useless weapons -- is nothing more nor less than a display of defiance in the face of this intolerable and unjust reality. And from a moral standpoint the situation IS intolerable.

Does our Father in heaven favor Jewish babies to Arab babies? No, of course not. The Father loves and values everyone equally. Indeed, the corraling of these Palestinians into this narrow strip of land is an insult to G-d's beneficence.

True, we often hear Scripture cited as the justification for this moral outrage. But anyone (even the devil) can cite Scripture to suit his purpose. We are told that once upon a time the G-d of Abraham gave this land to the Jews. But the truth is that Scripture, in this case the Old testament, still retains dross elements, traces of paganism, that do not embody the later understanding reflected in the teachings of Jesus. In many passages the G-d of the Old Testament is merely the old Canaanite storm god -- not the universal Father of love an compassion. Much evil and injustice has resulted from this misuse of Scripture.

BTW, I do not agree with Hamas about the firing of Qassam rockets into Israel. It is wrong. However, on a scale of violence it is nothing but a pin prick compared with the wholesale terror being unleashed against the Palestinians, who are all but defenseless.

The deeper problem is the racist nature of the Zionist enterprise. It's time to call it by its true name.

[Garcia Bronco]

If I recall correctly a certain someone didn't have a problem with the Russians putting their foot on the Georgians for shelling Ossetia.

[NOLA Bronco]

Most Israelis and most American Jews support a land for peace deal with the Palestinians. However, the US power elite -- including Obama and Hillary - - and AIPAC (the Israel lobby) -- are backing a small group of extremists in Israel who refuse peace talks and a political deal. They are in political contol of Israeli and are determined to tough it out -- with US support -- to thumb their nose at the world and dictate their version of "peace."

First, you are wrong. Most Jews in the US and Israel do not support giving up land. Not sure how many synogauges or rabbis you talk to.

For argument sake, lets say you are right though. Why isn't it being done then? Why would the US support the extremists in Israel? Whats their motive? Spell it out for me.

I must also state my shock that you think the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is worse than Aparthied. That is just ridiculous. This situation in South Africa right now is much worse.

[mhgaffney]

Cut, most of the "militants" as you call them were men killed when Israel bombed local police stations and a polic academy. So why are they bombing police stations? To cause social chaos? A lawless situation -- of anarchy? If this is the Israeli intent -- - it would not surprise me.

[Garcia Bronco]

Cut, most of the "militants" as you call them were men killed when Israel bombed local police stations and a polic academy. So why are they bombing police stations? To cause social chaos? A lawless situation -- of anarchy? If this is the Israeli intent -- - it would not surprise me.

Why are the "police" not stopping the terrorist attacks from their own country?

[mhgaffney]

The situation in S Africa is bad now for a simple reason. When Apartheid ended the African National Congress cut a deal with the white rulers that gave the ANC political power -- but allowed the white racists to retain control of the economy.

As a result the ANC was unable to make the needed changes to improve the lives of the black majority. It's why the poverty is worse today than under Apartheid.

I suggest you check out Naomi Klein's brilliant book THE SHOCK DOCTRINE, which has an excellent analysis of this.

[mhgaffney]

You are shocked? Too bad for you.

I suggest you read Jimmy Carter's book PEACE NOT APARTHEID. Carter states the reality clearly. In fact he understates it.

The situation in Israel is far far worse than what existed in S Africa.

[mhgaffney]

Polls in Israel and the US show that most American Jews and most Israelis favor giving land for peace. The polls on this have not changed over many years.

[Florida_Bronco]

You guys are merely regurgitating the anti Hamas propaganda that is pervasive here in the US. You don't know any better.

You're right, you're so high above us here. We could never be like you, Mr. Bastion of intelligence.

[NOLA Bronco]

Polls in Israel and the US show that most American Jews and most Israelis favor giving land for peace. The polls on this have not changed over many years.

Show me.

[cutthemdown]

Cut, most of the "militants" as you call them were men killed when Israel bombed local police stations and a polic academy. So why are they bombing police stations? To cause social chaos? A lawless situation -- of anarchy? If this is the Israeli intent -- - it would not surprise me.

Well that wouldn't surprise me either. They want to show the Palestinians Hamas can't take care of them. What's worst though IMO is how Fatah is sitting back and actually saying this the fault of Hamas. Almost like they are glad Israel is doing this.

I wonder if they are in on it. The intelligence from what I read is spot on. Israel seems to have the information where every Hamas leader lives, all the HQ's, etc etc.

Also Gaff I understand how they lost there land but I would liken it to Indians attacking to try and get land back. It may have some justifiable roots but they can't win. To keep trying to win just causes the people more despair. At this point they need to try and live on the land they have without attacking Israel.

These rocket attacks only give Israel what they need to justify the response.

Israel will never let them live side by side on same land because Israel a democracy and Israel would cease to be a jewish state.

We only need to see how Muslim govt are run to see that most are not friendly to the jews. So really if Israel did that they would cease to exist.

[mhgaffney]

The history of this conflict puts the lie to the idea that Jews and Muslims cannot coexist in peace. Despite what many falsely believe, this conflct is NOT ancient. It started in the 20th century when Zionist settlers began pushing Arab farmers off their land.

The ethnic cleansing accelerated in the 48 and 67 wars.

This is a recent conflict. In the 5th century AD when Christianity began persecuting Jews big-time Jews in droves fled to Iraq - which became the world center of Judaism for 1200 years. So Jews and Arabs lived together in peace for many centuries -- and can do so again.

After the rise of Islam Jews were protected in the Arab world as people of the book. The Jewish prophets are recognized by Muslims. Many of the holy places in Palestine are shared by both faiths.

If Arabs believed that coexistence were not possible they would never have offered Israel an olive branch in 2002. This peace offer was historic because EVERY Arab state signed on -- and because it calls for a complete cessation and resolution of the conflict. Meaning: an end to war, the start of full diplomatic relations, cultural exchanges, economic ties, trade etc

The sole condition is that Israel join the community of nations. This means abiding by UN Security Council resolutions on Palestine.

Israel must withdraw its troops from the West Bank.

There is absolutely no reason why Jerusalem cannot be the capital of two states -- coexisting side by side. NO reason whatsoever.

As for the right of return, the Jews claim this for world Jewry and if Palestinians are equal then their right to return must also be recognized. Of course, this can be subject to negotiations -- and in the end a smaller number may be acceptable to the Palestinians -- IF refugees are reinbursed for their stolen lands and homes and helped to settle elsewhere.

Far better to spend some tens of billions to achieve this kind of settlement than suffer the repeated cycle of war and strife. The Saudis and the other wealthy oil states in the Gulf can be tapped to provide a large chunk of the cash to achieve this. World Jewry must also help.

Many years after WW II we still hear of cases where Jewish victims of Nazi crimes are finally being compensated by the German government. This pattern needs to be repeated as regards the Palestinians. Instead of targetting the whole world with nuclear weapons -- the Jews should use their money to reimburse the Palestinians for the property stolen in 48 and 67.

I have no patience for idiots who say: Peace is not possible.

Nuf said.

[mhgaffney]

A word of warning:

IF America does not live up to its principles and If we do not use our power/influence to bring about a just settlement in Palestine

then we have only seen the start of strife. More than a billion Muslims will make war on us.

Americans will be unable to travel in safety -- for fear of being shot down in the streets.

Most of the world will target America, the new symbol NOT of freedom but of tyranny.

So, think carefully before you swallow the cliches and lies presently coming out of the mouths of American politicians about this Gaza situation.

[NOLA Bronco]

I have no patience for idiots who say: Peace is not possible.

And I have no respect for idiots who think this is just Israel's fault. If the world catered to Hamas and the terrorists in Palestine, you think they will stop blowing **** up? You think they won't go after Jews in Israel with much more gusto than Israel does now? Give em an inch..... Land for peace will not work.

Still waiting for your response on the "polls" that show Jews in the US and Israel are in favor of a land for peace deal. Also interested to hear why, if thats the case, the US supports just the militant Israelis....

[W*GS]

Of course, in gaffney-land, only the Jews have any responsibilities. The Palestinians and Arabs are completely innocent, and the victims.

[alkemical]

Of course, in gaffney-land, only the Jews have any responsibilities. The Palestinians and Arabs are completely innocent, and the victims.

That's not what he says. It bugs me that you don't hold each party accountable for their own share of the mess.

Zionists, while a word used by certain groups for blaming all the worlds problems on Jews, they've hijacked it. But there is an extremist movement that very much is "Zionist" within the jewish heritage. Even so, that it may have led to situations that have led...to killing their own people (jews) in order to prevail for their ideology.

Why is it so hard to believe that there would be "religious/political" nuts on the jewish sides of things, or that these "nuts" would indeed compromise peace?

In conflict, no side is innocent.


IMO, i think you are using the anti-semite slur against MHG because you don't like him for your own # of reasons, valid or not.

But there are some of us, who are not anti-semites who do have a problem with Fundamental-Zionist actions that have caused continued problems in the Middle East, as well as buying our politicians off (Abramoff).

nothing personal, just a rant/observation.

[W*GS]

With gaffney, everything always comes back to Israel. Always.

If anyone doesn't want to hold both sides accountable, it's gaffney. Indeed, he goes out of his way to excuse and rationalize the actions of the Arab and Palestinian terrorists.

That's what I find most galling - that he absolutely refuses to see what's wrong with suicide bombers.

[alkemical]

With gaffney, everything always comes back to Israel. Always.

If anyone doesn't want to hold both sides accountable, it's gaffney. Indeed, he goes out of his way to excuse and rationalize the actions of the Arab and Palestinian terrorists.

That's what I find most galling - that he absolutely refuses to see what's wrong with suicide bombers.

I actually understand his point:

If you don't have the $ or the military, you are going to use guerilla tactics. Since the palestinians lives are so desolate (their own making involved), they'd rather die.

Besides, from what i see - A lot of it is selective when seeing if MHG "disses" the terrorists. He's more bent on Israel due to the foreign policy decisions that have led us into some of the messes we are into. I don't disagree with him on the premise that...our foreign policy in some areas is bought and paid for.

[mhgaffney]

W*gs is an idiot -- blind to events.

My views are clear and have been stated repeatedly in this board, in articles on the Internet, and in my 1989 book about Israel's nuke program. For years I have been concerned -- and have warned -- that the US is being dragged by degrees into a global war -- WW III -- by Israel, which refuses to sit down and negotiate a regional peace treaty with Hamas and with its neighbors.

Neve Gordon, a professor at Ben Gurion University, located in Beersheba, just down the road from Gaza -- has followed the devolving situation with Hamas for years -- and accurately stated in a recent article that Israel could have ended the Qassam attacks long ago -- simply by sitting down and talking with Hamas, just as the Brits did with the IRA.

But evidently face to face talks are too simple.

Instead, Israel has resorted to the same tried and tested formula of demonization and de humanization that they formerly used against the PLO in the US media. Israel's leaders believe that they can yet prevail -- and kill all of their enemies -- as long as the US stands by them --right or wrong.

And let's be clear. From the Zionists standpoint this strategy has been very successful. Their policies vis a vis the Palestinians are morally abhorrent -- but Israel has toughed it out with blind US support.

They count on stooges like W*gs (who has no clue about the issues involved) to fly to their defense -- generally by smearing and attacking anyone who begs to differ. The anti-Semitic slur has proved very successful in the US -- at silencing critics. As a weapon it has been more successful than bullets.

Of course, if Israel had negotiated in good faith with Arafat many years ago -- instead of similarly demonizing him -- there would be no Hamas today because we would have had a negotiated peace settlement. But again -- this is too simple.

Israel's greatest fear is the threat of peace.

The problem with peace -- from the Zionists' standpoint -- is that Israel would then have to give up the West Bank -- and declare final and fixed borders -- and live within them. This would put an end to the grand Zionist dream of Eretz Israel (greater Israel) which in theory has no limit -- and from various statements of Zionists wil eventually include parts of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan - and who knows -- maybe even Iraq.

Zionist expansionism is what makes the Arabs so nervous. They have made it clear they can live with a Jewish state in the region -- so long as it does not insist on continued expansion.

Israel is probably the only state on earth that has never formally declared its borders. Zionist leaders like Menachem Begin and Ariel Sharon time and again made clear their admiration for America's 19th century policy of manifest destiny - our bent to expand westward to the Pacific Ocean. The Zionists evidently share a similar view with regard to the Mideast.

This is also why it is problematic for Hamas ro recognize Israel. Arafat's Fatah recognized Israel in 1988 -- and look what happened to Arafat. Israel promised to stop building new settlements in the territories during the Oslo peace process -- but they lied! Instead, they vastly expanded them - and set up Arafat to be the scaegoat for the resultant failed peace talks. The talks failed because Israel was never serious - and Arafat took the blame.

Hamas does not intend to make that same mistake again.

Even so -- Hamas has made it clear it would agree to live side by side a Jewish state in PART of the land of Palestine -- but Hamas will not give a blank check -- recognition without declared and final borders. That would be national suicide from the standpoint of the Palestinians.

W*gs -- and others who think just like him -- are completely ignorant of these issues. To them Israel can do no wrong. They admire the militaristic Sparta-like regime that thumbs its nose at international law -- and the UN -- and that even dares to bomb and kill Americans on occasion.

W*gs is in fact a traitor to America -- because clearly the US-Israel alliance is not in the best interests of the US -- nor the region -- nor the world. Our founding father Geo Washington warned against becoming involved in entangling alliances. Well, the incestuous US relationship with Israel is the mother of all entangling alliances -- and I believe it will eventually drag the US into global thermonuclear war.

We have come very close on a number of occasions. If Israel's attacks on Lebanon in 2006 had expanded to Syria-- that might have been the trigger. Syria and Iran have a security agreement. If Israel attacks Syria the Iranians may well come in --and general escalation could follow.

Once it starts - how do you stop it? If Iran hits Israel's Dimona nuclear complex with conventionally armed medium range missiles-- they can cause a mini Chernobyl. At which point Israel woud probably lash out like Samson in the temple -- and use nukes indescriminantly against Tehran and G-d only knows who else.

Iran would probably attack (and sink) the US fleet in the Persian Gulf. The Russians might also come to Iran's defense.

How do you stop it once it starts?

All of this and worse can happen -- too easily. And all because Israel refuses to adhere to UN SC resolutions -- and make peace with its neighbors -- I might add -- with blind US support. The whole region is set to explode. This can happen at any time. We live in peril.

But there are still a few Americans with a mind to care -- and we must now speak out loud and clear -- despite the slurs and slanders of slugs like W*gs. Time is very short but maybe just maybe we can wake up enough of our counrtymen and turn the tide -=- in the nick of time.

MHG.

[W*GS]

Thanks for putting your hatred of Jews (dressed up as mere opposition to Israel) on blatant display, gaffney.

As I said, you blame Israel for everything (including the coming WWIII (!)) and hold the Arabs and Palestinians responsible for nothing.

That makes you ridiculous.

As for me being ignorant or a "traitor", go stuff yourself. Often.

[alkemical]

Ok, the over the top rant part....

:paysw*gs$10: