Great article on the state of the Broncos from MHR

[Mediator12]

This is another brilliant article from Hoosier teacher over @ MHR. This guy really knows fooball and that is coming from me ;D

http://www.milehighreport.com/2008/12/17/694632/several-thoughts-as-the-br

Best Quote: "Hard work beats Talent, when Talent doesn't work hard".

[LonghornBronco]

Good read. So Med what is your take on needs this offseason? I think we should take a hard look at DE, Moss/crowder looks like a bust.

[Rock Chalk]

This is another brilliant article from Hoosier teacher over @ MHR. This guy really knows fooball and that is coming from me ;D

http://www.milehighreport.com/2008/12/17/694632/several-thoughts-as-the-br

Best Quote: "Hard work beats Talent, when Talent doesn't work hard".

That was an OK article.

His choices of RBs suck though. Torain will remain injured throughout his career, bank on it. Hillis I do like, but Id rather get a true RB and use Hillis more as an H-Back like Cooley is used.

He's wrong on the DTs too. Well, we might could use one more but a better, smarter LB corps will make the front two gap pluggers look all world.

Safety is clearly our weakest position and its not even close. We need a safety or 3 in a bad way. I cannot believe Abdullah was worse than the clowns we use right now.

Or, maybe the talent is there its just the idiot coach. Who knows. It doesnt look like there is much talent there thats for sure. Barrett was just as bad as everyone else against Carolina.

[Mediator12]

Good read. So Med what is your take on needs this offseason? I think we should take a hard look at DE, Moss/crowder looks like a bust.

I have not really started that outside of DT. It has started there for 4 years since 2005. As for the offense, no real needs outside of a really weird RB situation. I have not even come close to breaking that down yet. Still doing Overall NFL evaluations.

[Mediator12]

That was an OK article.

His choices of RBs suck though. Torain will remain injured throughout his career, bank on it. Hillis I do like, but Id rather get a true RB and use Hillis more as an H-Back like Cooley is used.

He's wrong on the DTs too. Well, we might could use one more but a better, smarter LB corps will make the front two gap pluggers look all world.

Safety is clearly our weakest position and its not even close. We need a safety or 3 in a bad way. I cannot believe Abdullah was worse than the clowns we use right now.

Or, maybe the talent is there its just the idiot coach. Who knows. It doesnt look like there is much talent there thats for sure. Barrett was just as bad as everyone else against Carolina.

Alex, the LB's can not function without real DT's in any system. DEN does not have any of those right now despite the rampant optimism over Thomas and Robertson. In fact, it is hard to say they have had any since Pryce switched to LDE from UT. The LB's clean up the play as long as the OL are not allowed to get to them. DEN has not had that luxury for awhile.

Safety is weak because the whole defense is a makeshift scheme to cover for the lack of quality DT's and DE's. It's not like they are any good mind you, but that is the least of their concerns scheme wise. Safeties are the free players on most plays, if the play gets to them most of the time the front seven screwed up in gap assignment or pass rush. The rate at which the safeties are involved IS THE PROBLEM.

[peacepipe]

Personally, we should go for def via FA rather than the draft due to our track record drafting defense. Draft a RB & depth at OL.

[Rock Chalk]

Alex, the LB's can not function without real DT's in any system. DEN does not have any of those right now despite the rampant optimism over Thomas and Robertson. In fact, it is hard to say they have had any since Pryce switched to LDE from UT. The LB's clean up the play as long as the OL are not allowed to get to them. DEN has not had that luxury for awhile.

Safety is weak because the whole defense is a makeshift scheme to cover for the lack of quality DT's and DE's. It's not like they are any good mind you, but that is the least of their concerns scheme wise. Safeties are the free players on most plays, if the play gets to them most of the time the front seven screwed up in gap assignment or pass rush. The rate at which the safeties are involved IS THE PROBLEM.

I watch the games Med and our DTs are certainly not Albert Haynesworth/Kris Jenkins they are no where near as bad as that guy makes them out to be.

Thomas is still young and a bit raw but YOU said DTs take a long time to adjust to the pro game and he has improved every game from what I am seeing.

Our run defense isn't because of DTs, its because our LBs ****ing suck. They cannot manage to stay focused for a whole game and because of that 60% of the rushing yards against us come on less than 15% of the rushing plays against us. **** LBs and **** safeties are supposed to stop the RBs when they do manage to get through the line and if rushing stats are ANY indication, the line does its fair share of holding up its end of the bargain.

No, Thomas and Robertson are not great pocket pushers, but from what I can see from our front seven no one is good at creating pressure. Our LBs cant get in position in zone coverage to make an interception, they cant shoot gaps and blitz effectively, all they are capable of doing is occassionally making a tackle at the line or behind the line but more often than not its 8 yards down field leaving a 2nd and 3 or 3rd and 1.

This goes back to prior to Coyer. The defense is just horrid at creating pressure. I loved Al Wilson as much as anyone, probably more so but even he wasnt a great blitzer. The difference between Wilson and the schmucks we have playing for us now is INTELLIGENCE.

[Inkana7]

I'm totally digging the recent resurgence of Med.

I've actually been impressed with our DTs this year. Robertson is really quite good in short yardage situations and Thomas has been good all year round. They're not the complete beasts that Haynesworth or Kris Jenkins are, but they're one of the few defensive positions I don't worry too much about. Even Kenny Peterson's made plays this year.

But we do need to draft a stud defender in the draft this year. Good LBs go in the 20s where we'll probably pick. I think Carolina got Beason at like the 21st spot. A stud DT would be better, though. We should also make a play at Oshimogho Atogwe in FA. That and quit messing with our defensive schemes in the middle of the season.

[TonyR]

Personally, we should go for def via FA rather than the draft due to our track record drafting defense.

I agree that we can't fix the defense via the draft alone but our track record isn't exactly stellar finding defensive players in FA.

[Inkana7]

Personally, we should go for def via FA rather than the draft due to our track record drafting defense. Draft a RB & depth at OL.

That's stupid. Don't draft defense because we have a bad track record?

[ZONA]

Not a bad article at all.

I'll say a few things regarding the defense and offense.


OFFENSE: I actually think we don't have too many worries concerning next season. I think when Jay struggles, it's due to having a running game that is not getting the job done. I think when Hillis was in there, that running game was impressive and Jay sure looked alot better because of it. There is no way in hell I would even consider drafting a RB with all the holes on defense.

DEFENSE: If you think LB or Safety is our #1 problem on defense you are wrong. Our DT's are decent. Not a strength but not a weakness. LB's are decent and I say that because I don't think it's a talent issue. I think we have some very talented backers but just some inconsistancy because most of them are very young. I could see us taking a MLB in the 4th round. Our biggest concern is we have absolutely no pressure on the QB. I think we may come close to ranking last in sacks, knockdowns and pressures. I think drafting a DE is a must in the 1st and 2nd rounds. I say that because IMHO, I think DE is the most important defensive position there is. Why? Simple. The QB is the most important position in the game. He is the 1 guy who touches the ball on every possesion. He is responsible for so much. A comfortable relaxed and poise QB, no matter how good he is, can torch a defense if he has time. If you can get pressure, it leads to that QB thinking of other things which causes him not to be relaxed and poise. If he's thinking he might take a sack or get stripped, he will rush passes, make poor throws, they start to only go to a single or double read progression causing them to miss open WR's, etc. Moss, Doom and Crowder are a joke. I'm not saying Safety isn't important but there is a reason why top DE's are always picked above anybody else, sometimes even before top rates QB's. That should tell you something right there. DE is the most important position on the defense and we have none worth a damn.

So, in closing, I think we stay with the guys we have on offense. Sign another FA center because Nalen will retire. I'd like to sign a FA safety also. For the draft I will be concerned if we don't do something close to this.

1st - DE
2nd - DE
3rd - S
4th - MLB


after that just go for depth or use the later picks to move up in the rounds.

[ghwk]

Good read. So Med what is your take on needs this offseason? I think we should take a hard look at DE, Moss/crowder looks like a bust.

Ok there seems to be some deference to Med when it comes to football issues. Not questioning his cred, just curious what it is!

[TheDave]

Ok there seems to be some deference to Med when it comes to football issues. Not questioning his cred, just curious what it is!

I taught him everything he knows... :thumbs:

[ghwk]

Your pic alone makes me question whether or not that is a good thing!

[fontaine]

Good article but I disagree about the Lichtensteiger part. I don't see how this kid can come in and play without the OL play suffering because his play looks real weak physically to me.

Kuper was a very, very strong kid. Lichtensteiger to me looks physically weaker than Hamilton and isn't a technician yet to make up for it.

[19Morton77]

Good read. So Med what is your take on needs this offseason? I think we should take a hard look at DE, Moss/crowder looks like a bust.


One of the worst. They have been hidden by the great 06 and 08 drafts and injured bug. If we can do on defense what we did in those bookend drafts, we can do well. Of course getting the talent drafted on D is where we have been very mediocre.

[rastaman]

Not a bad article at all.

I'll say a few things regarding the defense and offense.


OFFENSE: I actually think we don't have too many worries concerning next season. I think when Jay struggles, it's due to having a running game that is not getting the job done. I think when Hillis was in there, that running game was impressive and Jay sure looked alot better because of it. There is no way in hell I would even consider drafting a RB with all the holes on defense.

DEFENSE: If you think LB or Safety is our #1 problem on defense you are wrong. Our DT's are decent. Not a strength but not a weakness. LB's are decent and I say that because I don't think it's a talent issue. I think we have some very talented backers but just some inconsistancy because most of them are very young. I could see us taking a MLB in the 4th round. Our biggest concern is we have absolutely no pressure on the QB. I think we may come close to ranking last in sacks, knockdowns and pressures. I think drafting a DE is a must in the 1st and 2nd rounds. I say that because IMHO, I think DE is the most important defensive position there is. Why? Simple. The QB is the most important position in the game. He is the 1 guy who touches the ball on every possesion. He is responsible for so much. A comfortable relaxed and poise QB, no matter how good he is, can torch a defense if he has time. If you can get pressure, it leads to that QB thinking of other things which causes him not to be relaxed and poise. If he's thinking he might take a sack or get stripped, he will rush passes, make poor throws, they start to only go to a single or double read progression causing them to miss open WR's, etc. Moss, Doom and Crowder are a joke. I'm not saying Safety isn't important but there is a reason why top DE's are always picked above anybody else, sometimes even before top rates QB's. That should tell you something right there. DE is the most important position on the defense and we have none worth a damn.

So, in closing, I think we stay with the guys we have on offense. Sign another FA center because Nalen will retire. I'd like to sign a FA safety also. For the draft I will be concerned if we don't do something close to this.

1st - DE
2nd - DE
3rd - S
4th - MLB


after that just go for depth or use the later picks to move up in the rounds.

Denver needs to draft a ball hawking FS and allow the SS to help out CB's when they get burnt deep. The SS should not be selling out to play the run but should be also helping out in pass coverage as well.

Then Denver needs to find thru the draft or FA MLB to solidify the run Defense, and another DT that can stop the run and add depth.

Slowick should greatly reduce the scheme by 80%, with allowing the CB's from playing 10-15 yards off the WR's and play more man-2-man in your face coverage b/c now Denver has the FS and SS with deep coverage responsibility---- viola--watch an improvement in Denver's pass rush, stopping the run, and pass coverage.

[Broncoman13]

Ok there seems to be some deference to Med when it comes to football issues. Not questioning his cred, just curious what it is!

Something about a Holiday Inn Express...

[TheReverend]

Alex, the LB's can not function without real DT's in any system. DEN does not have any of those right now despite the rampant optimism over Thomas and Robertson. In fact, it is hard to say they have had any since Pryce switched to LDE from UT. The LB's clean up the play as long as the OL are not allowed to get to them. DEN has not had that luxury for awhile.

Safety is weak because the whole defense is a makeshift scheme to cover for the lack of quality DT's and DE's. It's not like they are any good mind you, but that is the least of their concerns scheme wise. Safeties are the free players on most plays, if the play gets to them most of the time the front seven screwed up in gap assignment or pass rush. The rate at which the safeties are involved IS THE PROBLEM.

I gotta go with Alec here. The linebackers have been kept relatively clean this year. Usually the big pop runs have come from a blown gap asignment. Like the Thomas Jones play where Winborn squeezed in a gap, blew his contain when Jones bounced it one gap out, but by then Winborn had already popped his hips and couldn't recover to make the play he should've been in position to make.

When you watch Tennessee's defense, aside from a guy like Haynesworth, watch Bulluck. He's far from clean every play, but he can play a block. I've seen him get engaged by a guard, shed him, then get engaged by a TE as he scrapes down the LOS, shed him, and make the tackle on the edge for no gain.

Woodyard is the ONLY Denver linebacker that has shown he can effectively play in traffic since Al Wilson. That's a problem.

[Merlin]

Not questioning his cred, just curious what it is!
Do a search on his posts...they speak for themselves. Is not that he is always right, but he does bring a lot of insight to the game.

[Mediator12]

I gotta go with Alec here. The linebackers have been kept relatively clean this year. Usually the big pop runs have come from a blown gap asignment. Like the Thomas Jones play where Winborn squeezed in a gap, blew his contain when Jones bounced it one gap out, but by then Winborn had already popped his hips and couldn't recover to make the play he should've been in position to make.

When you watch Tennessee's defense, aside from a guy like Haynesworth, watch Bulluck. He's far from clean every play, but he can play a block. I've seen him get engaged by a guard, shed him, then get engaged by a TE as he scrapes down the LOS, shed him, and make the tackle on the edge for no gain.

Woodyard is the ONLY Denver linebacker that has shown he can effectively play in traffic since Al Wilson. That's a problem.

This is what people keep telling me Rev, but I still have not seen it! The DT's are routinely getting blown off the ball and teams are able to get through the interior gaps on cut backs. The DT's are getting ridden out of their gaps and 2 yards off the ball on running plays. And this WITH playing a version of the 4-4 against CAR last week that should have freed them up to make plays at the POA. Add to that the fact that none of them can rush the QB on obvious passing downs and "go" rush schemes and I am still not buying it.

As for the Thomas Jones run, that was a completely blown play as both the backside A and B gaps were wide enough to drive a truck through them and the RB saw the LB leave the backside B gap in overpusuit and went right through that hole "untouched". In fact, he had his choice of which hole and the time to cut back because the DL was two yards blown off the ball! It is not like any of these guys are getting defeats at the POA and making negative plays either. The only one to do that recently was Peterson against CAR.

While the LB's are no longer near being a strength for this team, everything is based off stopping the run from the inside out. If the DT's were able to play the inside Gaps with any consistency, they just might be able to stop overplaying the run in their scheme and run NFL type coverages. And while everyone cries over the terrible play of the safeties, the safeties are having to make decisons about two gaps in open space 5 -10 yards down the field with very little pursuit to funnel.

The lack of DT's being able to shed and pursue makes every play that much more risky to surrender a big play on the cutback. A lot of the assists I have seen for Haynesworth, Jenkins, Kevin Williams, hell even Grady Jackson are the result of shedding and backside pursuit. Something, I have Not seen hardly at all with any of DEN's DT all year.

There is simply not a scheme in the NFL that does not start with stopping the run from the inside out. And, that is NOT a function of the LB or safety play, despite it being pretty miserable as a result. The DT's are freaking cones again, and not very good cones either IMHO.

[Peoples Champ]

This is another brilliant article from Hoosier teacher over @ MHR. This guy really knows fooball and that is coming from me ;D

http://www.milehighreport.com/2008/12/17/694632/several-thoughts-as-the-br

Best Quote: "Hard work beats Talent, when Talent doesn't work hard".



Coming from IU, gotta love Hoosier teachers.

[akaspaz]

DT, LB, and Safety are all needs and it's hard to argue the order.

These positions should be addressed via the draft because our Free Agent analysis for Defense (DL in particular) has been terrible as evidenced by the Browncos, Darryl Gardner, and almost everyone this decade.

Our recent drafts have been decent.

Champ is the exception, but he was acquired via trade.

[Kaylore]

DT's aren't awesome but they're far from the worst thing wrong with this team. We need a power end, safeties and better linebackers.

[TheReverend]

This is what people keep telling me Rev, but I still have not seen it! The DT's are routinely getting blown off the ball and teams are able to get through the interior gaps on cut backs. The DT's are getting ridden out of their gaps and 2 yards off the ball on running plays. And this WITH playing a version of the 4-4 against CAR last week that should have freed them up to make plays at the POA. Add to that the fact that none of them can rush the QB on obvious passing downs and "go" rush schemes and I am still not buying it.

As for the Thomas Jones run, that was a completely blown play as both the backside A and B gaps were wide enough to drive a truck through them and the RB saw the LB leave the backside B gap in overpusuit and went right through that hole "untouched". In fact, he had his choice of which hole and the time to cut back because the DL was two yards blown off the ball! It is not like any of these guys are getting defeats at the POA and making negative plays either. The only one to do that recently was Peterson against CAR.

While the LB's are no longer near being a strength for this team, everything is based off stopping the run from the inside out. If the DT's were able to play the inside Gaps with any consistency, they just might be able to stop overplaying the run in their scheme and run NFL type coverages. And while everyone cries over the terrible play of the safeties, the safeties are having to make decisons about two gaps in open space 5 -10 yards down the field with very little pursuit to funnel.

The lack of DT's being able to shed and pursue makes every play that much more risky to surrender a big play on the cutback. A lot of the assists I have seen for Haynesworth, Jenkins, Kevin Williams, hell even Grady Jackson are the result of shedding and backside pursuit. Something, I have Not seen hardly at all with any of DEN's DT all year.

There is simply not a scheme in the NFL that does not start with stopping the run from the inside out. And, that is NOT a function of the LB or safety play, despite it being pretty miserable as a result. The DT's are freaking cones again, and not very good cones either IMHO.

Aw come on! Thomas and Robertson and Peterson are far from world beaters but you make it sound like the issue starts and ends there.

Name one great linebacker that can't play in traffic?

[Haroldthebarrel]

Aw come on! Thomas and Robertson and Peterson are far from world beaters but you make it sound like the issue starts and ends there.

Name one great linebacker that can't play in traffic?

What about Johnatan Vilma?

I think the point here isnt that how average or how bad the line is.
The point is that this defense wont be consistently good making us a true contender without a talented defensive line.
And while Thomas is improving and Robertson has been good at times(he had a few games in NYJ in row where he was great), they also have not developed to the point of what we expect.
So the issue is the defensive line. And if go with a new cordinator or improve some other way, it starts with the defensive line.
All the great defensive coaches have had good defensive lines. Regardless if they acquired the talent themselves, trained them or just were handed.
All consistent defenses have consistent defensive lines.
Or so I read into this.

[TheReverend]

What about Johnatan Vilma?

I think the point here isnt that how average or how bad the line is.
The point is that this defense wont be consistently good making us a true contender without a talented defensive line.
And while Thomas is improving and Robertson has been good at times(he had a few games in NYJ in row where he was great), they also have not developed to the point of what we expect.
So the issue is the defensive line. And if go with a new cordinator or improve some other way, it starts with the defensive line.
All the great defensive coaches have had good defensive lines. Regardless if they acquired the talent themselves, trained them or just were handed.
All consistent defenses have consistent defensive lines.
Or so I read into this.

:spit:

The bolded part is a joke, right?

[oubronco]

for the 6th year in a row D-line D-line and more D-line and of course a new D-line coach

[Haroldthebarrel]

:spit:

The bolded part is a joke, right?

Did you watch Jets games last year?

Then you would have seen how much he struggled when he had to take on blockers in a 4-3.
Now he is back and can scrape and fill the gaps.
I certainly wouldnt call him great playing in traffic unless we have different defnitions of playing in traffic.
I always thought that meant taking on blockers and make the tackle which he is not very good at at all. He is great at filling gaps, contain his area and reading the play.