Evaluating Woodyard as a SS

[Taco John]

Looks like they put him in at SS this game...

[Taco John]

We might not get to even see a running game if they continue to pass at will

[Traveler]

I think they had him at SS according to Enberg.

[Taco John]

Duh. You're right. I typed what I wanted to hear. ::)

[ludo21]

D looks ok since first drive.... If they can keep stopping the run Delholmme will screw up eventually!

[Tombstone RJ]

I like the move alot... a whole lot...

[footstepsfrom#27]

I think he'll struggle with it to start with but if they leave him there we'll see what kind of progress he makes.

[gyldenlove]

Well, that move has backfired like the CIA giving weapons to Osama Bin Laden.

He has no business playing S, we end up playing with 1 deep and unfortunately Barrett was never meant to play deep. We have no safety coverage at all.

[jmz313]

LOoks to me like we're missing is pursuit closer to the LOS.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Well, that move has backfired like the CIA giving weapons to Osama Bin Laden.

He has no business playing S, we end up playing with 1 deep and unfortunately Barrett was never meant to play deep. We have no safety coverage at all.
Yeah let's junk the idea before the kid has a chance to play a single game at a position he's unfamiliar with and determine what he can't do. Makes perfect sense.

[Taco John]

Hard to evaluate the guy in this mess. We're running a gimmick defense this week, and it's getting killed.

[Garcia Bronco]

It wasn't broke. ugh.

[Schism]

Guy looks like he could be something special at LB, I just don't get the logic in playing him at Safety where I can't imagine he has anywhere near as much potential.

Could be a nice run support SS, but he'll always have limitations in coverage.

Get some real safeties, and let him play LB like he was made to do.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Hard to evaluate the guy in this mess. We're running a gimmick defense this week, and it's getting killed.
Agreed. If he stays here we won't know much till training camp next season. It's unreasonable to expect him to perform at a new position straight out the chute like he has at one he knows. I like that Shanny's willing to look at this as an option though.

[Popps]

It wasn't broke. ugh.

Yea, I suspected this might be the case.

Our defense looked much better without DJ/Webster in there. I'm not saying that's a reflection on anyone in particular, but we clearly look worse this week than we have in weeks.

[gyldenlove]

Yeah let's junk the idea before the kid has a chance to play a single game at a position he's unfamiliar with and determine what he can't do. Makes perfect sense.

You would rather lose the next 10 games, before you make your decisions? in this league you can't throw away games because you want to try a player. If he doesn't work you move him or cut him.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Guy looks like he could be something special at LB, I just don't get the logic in playing him at Safety where I can't imagine he has anywhere near as much potential.
Why do people keep saying this? He fits safety in the NFL more than he fits LB. It should be blatantly obvious that he will need time to learn the position so it's ridiculous to judge him yet.
Could be a nice run support SS, but he'll always have limitations in coverage.
Why? He's faster than Atwater or Lynch. There's zero evidence that he will "always" have limitations in coverage. Can we give this a chance before people shoot it down? The fact is DJ stunk to high heaven when he first switched over to MLB and yet he wound up getting better as time went along.
Get some real safeties, and let him play LB like he was made to do.
What do you think...we're going to the Superbowl? This is the ideal time to let him get his feet wet.

[footstepsfrom#27]

You would rather lose the next 10 games, before you make your decisions? in this league you can't throw away games because you want to try a player. If he doesn't work you move him or cut him.
That's idiotic. We're not going to lose 10 games because we try him at safety. Did you forget the crap we have at safety NOW is not going to win us ****? If you want the truth he's better than DJ Williams is at Will but nobody wants to hear that. DJ isn't a SAM and moving himi to MLB means that the guy we have who is best suited to play there continues to be a fullback.

Cripes he's not the reason we're getting the crap beat out of us. I wouldn't be surprised if he's picking the position up pretty well within a short time but to hear this crap he should be cut now.

[gyldenlove]

Why do people keep saying this? He fits safety in the NFL more than he fits LB. It should be blatantly obvious that he will need time to learn the position so it's ridiculous to judge him yet.

Why? He's faster than Atwater or Lynch. There's zero evidence that he will "always" have limitations in coverage. Can we give this a chance before people shoot it down? The fact is DJ stunk to high heaven when he first switched over to MLB and yet he wound up getting better as time went along.

What do you think...we're going to the Superbowl? This is the ideal time to let him get his feet wet.

How does he fit a safety? he can't cover, he doesn't read plays, he doesn't change direction, seems to me like he fits safety about as well as a horse would.

If being fast is all you need, then why aren't we using PJ Pope or Chad Jackson? they are much faster. He was so bad in coverage he got cut out of TC and NOBODY else wanted him, that is how bad his coverage is. I have news for you, DJ was never a good MLB, getting better from being **** is not that hard.

[gyldenlove]

That's idiotic. We're not going to lose 10 games because we try him at safety. Did you forget the crap we have at safety NOW is not going to win us ****? If you want the truth he's better than DJ Williams is at Will but nobody wants to hear that. DJ isn't a SAM and moving himi to MLB means that the guy we have who is best suited to play there continues to be a fullback.

Cripes he's not the reason we're getting the crap beat out of us. I wouldn't be surprised if he's picking the position up pretty well within a short time but to hear this crap he should be cut now.

Vernon Fox is MUCH better at S than Woodyard, Calvin Lowry was better.

Woodyard is a linebacker, he can tackle and has straight line speed, those are things you need from a LB. I don't know if he is better than DJ, but he is certainly a good LB, but he is a crappy S.

[Schism]

I'm not denying that maybe he could be a decent safety given some time to learn the position.

But he's obviously a very good linebacker already, why should we mess with that for the sake of maybe creating a half decent safety one day?

[footstepsfrom#27]

How does he fit a safety? he can't cover, he doesn't read plays, he doesn't change direction, seems to me like he fits safety about as well as a horse would.

If being fast is all you need, then why aren't we using PJ Pope or Chad Jackson? they are much faster. He was so bad in coverage he got cut out of TC and NOBODY else wanted him, that is how bad his coverage is. I have news for you, DJ was never a good MLB, getting better from being **** is not that hard.
Chill out dude. What did you expect the first time out, Dennis Smith? Get a clue and realize that we're looking at moves to build a defense for next year because this team is going NOWHERE in 2008. Shanahan at least has the stones to throw these kids out there and let them get better.

I have no idea what you're talking about him getting cut in TC. He came here and he's been sensational. Also you're analysis of DJ at MLB is nonsense. He played well as the positon considering he'd not been there before...none the less he's a weakside backer and that's where he's best.

Woodyard can't be judged as a safety till farther downt the line. I would think that would be obvious.

[extralife]

I liked the idea in theory, but he basically was an invisible linebacker today. I think this defense would have had a shot if Champ was in the game on Steve Smith, but he wasn't. So we were torched. Credit to the Carolina coaches for figuring we'd come out with something like this, and featuring Smith in the gameplan early and often to expose it.

Really though, how many different kind of base defenses have we played this year? It's been a mess.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I'm not denying that maybe he could be a decent safety given some time to learn the position.

But he's obviously a very good linebacker already, why should we mess with that for the sake of maybe creating a half decent safety one day?
The same could have been said about Darren Woodson.

[Schism]

The same could have been said about Darren Woodson.

I dunno, I just don't see the point.

It's a good FA safety group and draft class coming up, I'd prefer to see us address the position there and play Woodyard at LB.

Be a shame to waste such a really good LB prospect by forcing him into a move. Just as much chance of him flopping at Safety as there is of him succeeding surely?

[Drek]

The same could have been said about Darren Woodson.

That is a rather disingenuous argument isn't it?

Woodyard has played linebacker in the NFL this year, and done so at a very high level. Its not quite the same as X college convert moving from the start of his NFL career.

One of the things I'm real concerned about with moving Woodyard to safety is that the league is moving more and more towards a pass heavy, attacking downfield offensive mind set and that requires safety help in coverage more than in run support. Sure we need the help in run support now, but if we're ever going to actually be a good defense we need to start defending the run with seven men in the box, not eight or nine.

Also, recent such conversions have not panned out so well. Adam Archuletta was the collegiate LB of the year and Roy Williams was basically a LB. Both had some success early in their careers but it wasn't too long before teams figured out how to isolate and exploit them in coverage.

The question on Woodyard is can he gain the agility and coverage skills to play safety, or the size and power needed to play linebacker. Not only is it theoretically easier to add strength as opposed to increasing agility, we've already seen Woodyard progressing along those lines this year.

I'd rather see Woodyard at safety than Manual or McCree, but then I'm almost thinking I'd rather see Leach there as well at this point. We know he's got a world of potential at LB and the skills that make him worth discussing as a safety can make him a stand out LB. Play him at safety if that is what is needed to get him on the field this year, but come the off-season he needs to be focusing on adding some extra muscle and being a full time linebacker.

[Bronx33]

It was a failure last week ww2 was registering 9+ tackles a game today 1 now where do you say ww2 is most effective?

[broncolife]

It was a failure last week ww2 was registering 9+ tackles a game today 1 now where do you say ww2 is most effective?

And I think he moved back to lb for that one tackle

[Bronx33]

And I think he moved back to lb for that one tackle


now that is freaking funny.

[Spider]

still to early to tell , you just dont go from Line backer to Safety .......

[Br0nc0Buster]

WW needs to bulk up and play SLB.

He is much more natural at LB than S

[Dedhed]

I noticed that there was a distinct lack of playmaking from the LBs and I didn't see Woodyard make a play either.

[Bronx33]

WW needs to bulk up and play SLB.

He is much more natural at LB than S

check mike singletarys playing weight.

[Dedhed]

WW needs to bulk up and play SLB.

He is much more natural at LB than S

I'd rather sacrifice DJ to the strong side.

[BroncoMan4ever]

How does he fit a safety? he can't cover, he doesn't read plays, he doesn't change direction, seems to me like he fits safety about as well as a horse would.

If being fast is all you need, then why aren't we using PJ Pope or Chad Jackson? they are much faster. He was so bad in coverage he got cut out of TC and NOBODY else wanted him, that is how bad his coverage is. I have news for you, DJ was never a good MLB, getting better from being **** is not that hard.

Dude, he isn't going to be Ed Reed on day 1.

also, considering he was playing the Lynch version of SS, he basically acted as a 4th LB. Shanahan knows the guy has talent, and obviously wants him on the field. while he wasn't all over the field making plays like the past 5 weeks at WILL, he played a decent game, made some stops and considering it was his first game at a new position he played well.

next season i would much rather have him hit the weights and be our SAM or MIKE than see him at Safety, but for this season i am cool with whatever position he has to play to stay on the field.

[Bronx33]

Question: was todays important?

[Br0nc0Buster]

check mike singletarys playing weight.

Well players are bigger and faster now days, so I am not sure you can use comparisons from older players.
But I would be fine with him in the middle to, I think he benefits coming to the ball carrier at an angle instead of straight forward.
Which is why I think the strong side would be a better fit assuming he can shed blocks.

[Bronx33]

Well players are bigger and faster now days, so I am not sure you can use comparisons from older players.
But I would be fine with him in the middle to, I think he benefits coming to the ball carrier at an angle instead of straight forward.
Which is why I think the strong side would be a better fit assuming he can shed blocks.


Well i haven't seen anything from his play that says he needs to gain weight hes shedding tackles and making tackles at NFL levels ( why **** with perfection) and slow him down.

[Br0nc0Buster]

I'd rather sacrifice DJ to the strong side.

I wouldnt.
I think right now WW is just happy to be on the team.

DJ is really only good at the weakside.
I think WW has the instincts to be good at other spots than just WLB

[Br0nc0Buster]

Well i haven't seen anything from his play that says he needs to gain weight hes shedding tackles and making tackles at NFL levels ( why **** with perfection) and slow him down.

well if he doesnt need to gain weight then that is good.
I am confused, are you suggesting moving DJ and putting WW back at the weakside?
Or you prefer him in the middle?

My argument is if he can shed blocks, then the best way to get the best players on the field in a manner to where they could all play at a high level would be DJ at WLB, WW at SLB, and Larson/1st day rookie at MLB

[Bronx33]

well if he doesnt need to gain weight then that is good.
I am confused, are you suggesting moving DJ and putting WW back at the weakside?
Or you prefer him in the middle?

My argument is if he can shed blocks, then the best way to get the best players on the field in a manner to where they could all play at a high level would be DJ at WLB, WW at SLB, and Larson/1st day rookie at MLB


Naw i was kinda stating that putting DJ back in this game was a mistake when we really need help up front ( DJ didn't do squat today) and neither did WW2. i just think WW2 should have stayed up front for this game IMO.

[Tombstone RJ]

Question: was todays important?

good question. The answer is no, this game was not as important as next weeks and this was the perfect game to experiment with new ideas.

[SoCalBronco]

WW should be at MLB.

[Tombstone RJ]

WW should be at MLB.

you sound like me at the beginning of the season...:thumbsup:

[SoCalBronco]

you sound like me at the beginning of the season...:thumbsup:

I don't know why people are opposed to this. We all agree that he has excellent instincts and a special sense for the game. It's clear that this intangible is especially useful and helpful at MLB as opposed to other positions. He's also demonstrated that he sheds tackles better than his frame would indicate. This does not mean that he should stay at 230. I still think he could use another 10 pounds. This makes alot of sense. You keep DJ where he is best and put WW where he can also succeed. Let him fill the hole at MLB. His speed will also allow us to play more coverages (i.e. Tampa 2, etc.) than we would be able to with Webster (or Larsen for that matter).

[24champ]

WW should be at MLB.

Agreed.

WW said in the postgame show, that he played SS because they needed to stop the run. It doesn't sound like SS will be his position for the long term.

[Tombstone RJ]

I don't know why people are opposed to this. We all agree that he has excellent instincts and a special sense for the game. It's clear that this intangible is especially useful and helpful at MLB as opposed to other positions. He's also demonstrated that he sheds tackles better than his frame would indicate. This does not mean that he should stay at 230. I still think he could use another 10 pounds. This makes alot of sense. You keep DJ where he is best and put WW where he can also succeed. Let him fill the hole at MLB. His speed will also allow us to play more coverages (i.e. Tampa 2, etc.) than we would be able to with Webster (or Larsen for that matter).

Larsen to sam is fine with me. WW at Mike, DJ at will...

[ZONA]

One thing is for sure. Something has to change at LB for us. We have too many mediocre to good LB's and no great LB's. It's gonna be hard to change because mainly of the Boss signing. Nobody wants him and his cap hit sucks. You don't want to trade Woodyard because he's proven he's a good young player that might get better. I think Boss is not that good and he's definitely not going to get better. DJ is solid. Webster sucks. Winborn is decent. Larsen is unproven. The rest of the guys bite.

We're in a tough situation with our LB's that's for sure.


But just to make one comment on the game. To me, the most glaring need for this team (and has been for several years) is a DE that makes a difference. Not since Trevor Pryce have we had a guy who can just take care of his side of the field, both on run plays and rushing the passer. I know we need a safety and I think we need to draft one somewhat high but I would like to see our first 2 picks at DE. I might even package a few picks to move up and grab a top DE. We don't need more depth, we need better starters. Screw the 8 picks to bring to camp. Move up high and just bring in 3 high picks. 2 DE's and 1 Safety.

[Tombstone RJ]

One thing is for sure. Something has to change at LB for us. We have too many mediocre to good LB's and no great LB's. It's gonna be hard to change because mainly of the Boss signing. Nobody wants him and his cap hit sucks. You don't want to trade Woodyard because he's proven he's a good young player that might get better. I think Boss is not that good and he's definitely not going to get better. DJ is solid. Webster sucks. Winborn is decent. Larsen is unproven. The rest of the guys bite.

We're in a tough situation with our LB's that's for sure.


But just to make one comment on the game. To me, the most glaring need for this team (and has been for several years) is a DE that makes a difference. Not since Trevor Pryce have we had a guy who can just take care of his side of the field, both on run plays and rushing the passer. I know we need a safety and I think we need to draft one somewhat high but I would like to see our first 2 picks at DE. I might even package a few picks to move up and grab a top DE. We don't need more depth, we need better starters. Screw the 8 picks to bring to camp. Move up high and just bring in 3 high picks. 2 DE's and 1 Safety.

trading up to take the best DE in the game is gonna be huge. That's gonna take alot of fire power. Question is, what do the Broncos give up to get that differenc maker?

[broncocalijohn]

He hasnt played Safety since his first year at Kentucky and switched when their LB were weak and he thought he can play there (which the coaches were thinking the same). Putting him in a game while we are still looking for the division isnt a smart move. If we have a big lead next week or Chargers lose earlier in the day, then try it and play him at SD.

[db56]

I watched the game and the only S on the field most of the time was Barrett, they were in a 4-4 for the first time this year with WW being the fourth LB, not a S. BTW, it didnt work very well, better move to a 10-1.

[Tombstone RJ]

I watched the game and the only S on the field most of the time was Barrett, they were in a 4-4 for the first time this year with WW being the fourth LB, not a S. BTW, it didnt work very well, better move to a 10-1.

I like the move. I think weak play by the CBs was the biggest problem, and lack of pressure on Delhomme.

[footstepsfrom#27]

trading up to take the best DE in the game is gonna be huge. That's gonna take alot of fire power. Question is, what do the Broncos give up to get that differenc maker?
Trade DJ. Hard as it is to believe he's not the playmaker that Woodyard is at Will and that's his best position. He makes tackels at MLB but they're mostly downfield. He's not a great pass rusher and he dissapears at SAM so why keep him just becuase he's a former #1? If we wind up playing Woodyard at Will then DJ will either have to go or be no more than a pretty good MLB. Larsen is probably better suited for the middle even though he's slow. This whole defense needs to be revamped and today's experiment was just the start trying to find the combination that works best.

[footstepsfrom#27]

That is a rather disingenuous argument isn't it?

Woodyard has played linebacker in the NFL this year, and done so at a very high level. Its not quite the same as X college convert moving from the start of his NFL career.
He's been on the field for 5 games. This is the start of his NFL career.
One of the things I'm real concerned about with moving Woodyard to safety is that the league is moving more and more towards a pass heavy, attacking downfield offensive mind set and that requires safety help in coverage more than in run support. Sure we need the help in run support now, but if we're ever going to actually be a good defense we need to start defending the run with seven men in the box, not eight or nine.

Also, recent such conversions have not panned out so well. Adam Archuletta was the collegiate LB of the year and Roy Williams was basically a LB. Both had some success early in their careers but it wasn't too long before teams figured out how to isolate and exploit them in coverage.

The question on Woodyard is can he gain the agility and coverage skills to play safety, or the size and power needed to play linebacker. Not only is it theoretically easier to add strength as opposed to increasing agility, we've already seen Woodyard progressing along those lines this year.

I'd rather see Woodyard at safety than Manual or McCree, but then I'm almost thinking I'd rather see Leach there as well at this point. We know he's got a world of potential at LB and the skills that make him worth discussing as a safety can make him a stand out LB. Play him at safety if that is what is needed to get him on the field this year, but come the off-season he needs to be focusing on adding some extra muscle and being a full time linebacker.
Safety is more about smarts and understanding angles than it is agility and all this other crap people throw out there. Safety is not cornerback. Most of the time they're either helping a corner or their covering a larger, slower TE downfield. The NFL is full of safeties that don't have the swivel hips and the agility people in here are insisting Woodyard needs. Atwater never had that and neither did Lynch. We had a guy playing safety last year who did...Foxworth...he was ALREADY a defensive back and performed poorly at safety when given the chance yet some on this board think Woodyard's first and only attempt at this should be the indication of whether he can/should do it or not. Woodyard is a playmaker and to make plays effectively he needs to be in either the weakside LB spot or at safety. I just do not see this guy being a SAM or MIKE because then he has to fight through 330 pound blockers on every play. There's a reason the WILL is usually a smaller guy and better in space with the speed to chase down ball carriers from behind. Woodyard needs to have ample time to learn the position and see some time on the field before we have any inkling of whether he's the answer or not. If he's not...he can always move back to LB. But that means that DJ probably has to go because he is not meant to play elsewhere. That much is already clear.

[footstepsfrom#27]

WW should be at MLB.
I think we already have a pretty good MLB. Unfortunately he plays fullback because our fullback plays tailback.

[FireFly]

I think we already have a pretty good MLB. Unfortunately he plays fullback because our fullback plays tailback.

I thought I heard them say we didn't have a fullback atm?

[extralife]

I like the move. I think weak play by the CBs was the biggest problem, and lack of pressure on Delhomme.

Well, if your CB play is mediocre and you can't get any pressure, then it becomes a pretty terrible move, does it not?

[footstepsfrom#27]

I thought I heard them say we didn't have a fullback atm?
Larsen was inactive for the game..isn't he hurt?

[Drek]

I don't know why people are opposed to this. We all agree that he has excellent instincts and a special sense for the game. It's clear that this intangible is especially useful and helpful at MLB as opposed to other positions. He's also demonstrated that he sheds tackles better than his frame would indicate. This does not mean that he should stay at 230. I still think he could use another 10 pounds. This makes alot of sense. You keep DJ where he is best and put WW where he can also succeed. Let him fill the hole at MLB. His speed will also allow us to play more coverages (i.e. Tampa 2, etc.) than we would be able to with Webster (or Larsen for that matter).

He sheds tackles better than his frame would indicate, but that still doesn't mean he's capable of taking on guards and centers on an every down basis. And I personally don't think he's actually playing at 230 right now, probably more like 225-ish.

He's got great speed and making him fight through traffic every down is only going to reduce how effective he can be with it. He's also a small guy who will have his career significantly shortened by playing MLB.

SLB and WLB aren't nearly as different as they used to be, he's a great fit at SLB since he isn't a natural pass rusher and is surprisingly good for a person his size and speed at moving through traffic.

As for Larsen, honestly he's just not as good as everyone here wishes he was. He'll make a great utility guy who can fill in at MLB or FB in a pinch and contribute on special teams, but if we want to see this team truly excel in the front seven we need a legit MLB and this is the class for taking one.

You line up DJ at WLB, Woodyard at SLB, and a top tier MLB from this draft class and we've got ourselves a nice LB setup for half a decade.

[footstepsfrom#27]

He sheds tackles better than his frame would indicate, but that still doesn't mean he's capable of taking on guards and centers on an every down basis. And I personally don't think he's actually playing at 230 right now, probably more like 225-ish.

He's got great speed and making him fight through traffic every down is only going to reduce how effective he can be with it. He's also a small guy who will have his career significantly shortened by playing MLB.

SLB and WLB aren't nearly as different as they used to be, he's a great fit at SLB since he isn't a natural pass rusher and is surprisingly good for a person his size and speed at moving through traffic.

As for Larsen, honestly he's just not as good as everyone here wishes he was. He'll make a great utility guy who can fill in at MLB or FB in a pinch and contribute on special teams, but if we want to see this team truly excel in the front seven we need a legit MLB and this is the class for taking one.

You line up DJ at WLB, Woodyard at SLB, and a top tier MLB from this draft class and we've got ourselves a nice LB setup for half a decade.
We know this based on what? His only chance to start was stellar.

[Lolad]

is he really faster then atwater or lynch? Does he have fluid hips to move while in coverage?

[Tombstone RJ]

Well, if your CB play is mediocre and you can't get any pressure, then it becomes a pretty terrible move, does it not?

No, it does not.

[Tombstone RJ]

is he really faster then atwater or lynch? Does he have fluid hips to move while in coverage?

Lynch yes, Atwater, in his prime, Woodyards speed is comparable. Is he fluid enough to play the position? Was Atwater fluid? Please enlighten me 'cause I can't remember.

What I do know is Atwater knocked the schitznik out of opposing offenses, and got himself a ring in the process...

[gyldenlove]

is he really faster then atwater or lynch? Does he have fluid hips to move while in coverage?

He is probably faster in a straight line than Lynch was for his time here. Woodyard however has some of the stiffest hips you will find, his turning circle and speed is like a subway train.

Woodyard is a better fit at SLB than at S that is for sure.

[socalorado]

He is probably faster in a straight line than Lynch was for his time here. Woodyard however has some of the stiffest hips you will find, his turning circle and speed is like a subway train.

Woodyard is a better fit at SLB than at S that is for sure.

WWIII should stay at WLB. He is a beast there.
I dont doubt he could re-learn the SS spot, but it would have to be in the offseason. This throw him in there in a hybrid 4-4 crap was just idiotic.
Barrett played well, and the angle he took on the Williams run was the right angle. He didnt blow it. He was 40! freaking yards away and had to come up to try to make a play and while all the other players were moving to the left, he tried to contain Williams by taking that angle. Its all he could do.
Scheme was at fault in both cases.

[Haroldthebarrel]

WWIII should stay at WLB. He is a beast there.
I dont doubt he could re-learn the SS spot, but it would have to be in the offseason. This throw him in there in a hybrid 4-4 crap was just idiotic.
Barrett played well, and the angle he took on the Williams run was the right angle. He didnt blow it. He was 40! freaking yards away and had to come up to try to make a play and while all the other players were moving to the left, he tried to contain Williams by taking that angle. Its all he could do.
Scheme was at fault in both cases.

I agree with your all your points except, scheme is at fault?

They would have gotten him at the line if the one with contain did his job.
And I don't think especially the long run had none to contain the backside.
I could be wrong, but I thought player execution were just as if not more at fault there.

Containing the backside has been a problem all year long.
It was the worst when the veteran starting, ie the ones we started yesterday. Then it got better with the rookies, culminating in what I thought was our best game when Larsen and WW played and started.
That's something I have a beef with as far as Slowik.
He has to fix everything.
When the run game was horrible in the beginning of the season it just got worse as the scheme was changed every week along with more complexity.
Then after the bye things seemed to change as the rookie started and we played very basic, and thus somewhat predictable.
And now we are back again with the changes.
Bah, everybody knows that if you start with a new problem, you start with the easy parts, and only when you got them right, you can go on to the more complex part. You dont just skip into the complex parts.
Your two sayings, "if it works, to more of it", and "Keep it simple, stupid".

[socalorado]

I agree with your all your points except, scheme is at fault?

They would have gotten him at the line if the one with contain did his job.
And I don't think especially the long run had none to contain the backside.
I could be wrong, but I thought player execution were just as if not more at fault there.

Containing the backside has been a problem all year long.
It was the worst when the veteran starting, ie the ones we started yesterday. Then it got better with the rookies, culminating in what I thought was our best game when Larsen and WW played and started.
That's something I have a beef with as far as Slowik.
He has to fix everything.
When the run game was horrible in the beginning of the season it just got worse as the scheme was changed every week along with more complexity.
Then after the bye things seemed to change as the rookie started and we played very basic, and thus somewhat predictable.
And now we are back again with the changes.
Bah, everybody knows that if you start with a new problem, you start with the easy parts, and only when you got them right, you can go on to the more complex part. You dont just skip into the complex parts.
Your two sayings, "if it works, to more of it", and "Keep it simple, stupid".

Maybe i should have used the term gameplan. Not scheme.
To gameplan having WWIII at SS, or the hybrid 4-4 LB/SS spot was stupid.
To gameplan having Barrett play in the endzone for half the game....was stupid.

[Taco John]

Maybe i should have used the term gameplan. Not scheme.
To gameplan having WWIII at SS, or the hybrid 4-4 LB/SS spot was stupid.
To gameplan having Barrett play in the endzone for half the game....was stupid.

So what was your answer to Steve Smith then? It's one thing to call a plan stupid - but when you have nothing to replace it, then all you're doing is chirping.

The fact is, without Bailey on the field, we don't have an answer to Steve Smith but to put a safety deep, cheat him in Smith's direction, and hope you can keep a lid on the guy. It wasn't great. It was a gimmick. But it's about all we could do. We didn't have a single person on the field who could keep up with him.

As far as Woodyard goes, they were using him exclusively as an extra linebacker on the field.

[socalorado]

So what was your answer to Steve Smith then? It's one thing to call a plan stupid - but when you have nothing to replace it, then all you're doing is chirping.

The fact is, without Bailey on the field, we don't have an answer to Steve Smith but to put a safety deep, cheat him in Smith's direction, and hope you can keep a lid on the guy. It wasn't great. It was a gimmick. But it's about all we could do. We didn't have a single person on the field who could keep up with him.

As far as Woodyard goes, they were using him exclusively as an extra linebacker on the field.

Right. To gameplan with gimmicks is stupid.
At the NFL level, a pro team should be beyond playing gimmicks.
Injuries?!?! Good excuse.
The team has CBs, line them up and play them across from the mighty steve smith.

[cmhargrove]

Find a way to put this kid back in at LB.

Barrett did great at SS against Gonzales, no we are screwing around with him at FS?

WW is a linebacker, Barrett is a SS - let's leave it at that.

We need a top flight ballhawk FS to be competitive.

[Br0nc0Buster]

What Drek and I have been saying seems to make perfect sense, at least to me.

Have WW play the strong side, and we can draft a stud middle linebacker in 2010.
I think we should leave the LBs alone for now, except of course replace Webster with Larson and Winborn with WW

We have much bigger fish to fry, the Dline and FS spot

[Mountain Bronco]

It was a bad idea PERIOD. Not simply because he is a better fit at WLB, but because he had one week to prepare, we are in the home strech, DJ is rusty, rusty, rusty and looked pathetic today. I am sorry, but when WW is making a ton of plays and DJ is not, we have to bench DJ or move him to the middle. I disagre with the masses on here that DJ is not an effective MLB. He was better than Webster.

SLB = Winborn
MLB = DJ or Larsen
WLB = WW

For the rest of the season. Please.

[~Crash~]

It was a bad idea PERIOD. Not simply because he is a better fit at WLB, but because he had one week to prepare, we are in the home strech, DJ is rusty, rusty, rusty and looked pathetic today. I am sorry, but when WW is making a ton of plays and DJ is not, we have to bench DJ or move him to the middle. I disagre with the masses on here that DJ is not an effective MLB. He was better than Webster.

SLB = Winborn
MLB = DJ or Larsen
WLB = WW

For the rest of the season. Please.

yes and when coach was asked if he would ever move DJ back to MLB'er his answer was crisp . "DJ is no MLB'er".

And then I thought to myself thank God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[yavoon]

woodyard at wlb, dj at some other spot. make it so.

[Irish Stout]

sometimes I cry myself to sleep.

[montrose]

DJ needs to stay at Will, period. We're getting into the same trouble we did with Ian Gold in 2000 and 2005. I'm with SoCal in having Woody put on about 10 lbs. and compete with Webster for the Mike job. I think Woody has the instincts and tackling ability to flourish there. Remember, Brian Urlacher was a safety-converted WLB-converted MLB for a lot of the same traits as Woody.

WLB: DJ, Green
MLB: Woody, Webster, Larsen (probably also be our starting FB next year)
SLB: Boss, Winborn

[Bronco Yoda]

So what was your answer to Steve Smith then? It's one thing to call a plan stupid - but when you have nothing to replace it, then all you're doing is chirping.

The fact is, without Bailey on the field, we don't have an answer to Steve Smith but to put a safety deep, cheat him in Smith's direction, and hope you can keep a lid on the guy. It wasn't great. It was a gimmick. But it's about all we could do. We didn't have a single person on the field who could keep up with him.

As far as Woodyard goes, they were using him exclusively as an extra linebacker on the field.

I agree. It didn't work but at least we gave it a shot. Bailey being out is like the last Domino effect.

Woodyard plays bigger than he is and his intensity and desire is forcing Mike to find ways to keep in on the field. It's going to be fun watching this player mature. He's going to get opportunities to see exactly what he can and cannot do.

[Mediator12]

One of the reasons you would want to convert this Defense to a Tampa 2 Base is that every LB in that system has to have the skills to play WLB. DJ, Check. Woodyard, Check. The rest of them, maybe. Monte Kiffin says they obtain every LB in their system to play WLB. That makes Former Bucs Webster and Winborn qualified and accustomed to that scheme.

A lot of quality Defenses in the league have "undersized" LB's playing in the Tampa 2 Base. A few of them even stop the run better than average, but losing a starting DT can be disaster as happened to INDY, CHI, and TB the last few weeks. Get 2 Quality DT's and play a TB2 scheme next year and this defense would be average again right quick. Plus, that would Limit the amount of big plays given up once it gels.

As far as Woodyard @ SS, it was required to stop CAR from Pounding the ball down their throats. It was pick your poison against CAR whose offense is peaking at exactly the right time of the year. Let's not read too much into it just yet.

[Inkana7]

Med, in your opinion, would we be able to employ a Tampa 2 base and still be able to play to Bailey and Bly's strengths?

[gyldenlove]

Bly certainly doesn't fit in Tampa 2, that is what Mariucci tried to have him play in Detroit and he was awful.

Bailey could fit just fine, he is a secure tackler and supports the run well. It would probably be a waste of his man to man cover skills though.

Moss and Dumervil would both fit quite nicely in a Tampa 2 front where you rely on your pass rush from your ends and try not to blitz. Again the problem I see comes back to 2 things, we do not have the big runstuffing DTs we need to play this system, just like we didn't last year with Bates hybrid system, in the Tampa 2 you need at least one 2-gap DT since your ends often go for penetration rather than gap assignments, we also lack the very rangy safeties you need. Since the CBs play short zones the safeties have to cover all the backfield, and they need to have very good range or very good instincts to do so, and we just don't have that.

[Mediator12]

Med, in your opinion, would we be able to employ a Tampa 2 base and still be able to play to Bailey and Bly's strengths?

Absolutely! The common Misperception is that you would waste CB's talents playing them in zone coverage, but Both have been very good at jumping routes and it would be nice to turn them loose with real deep assist coverage.

Plus, that is the base package. Teams will not play TB2 all the time. They would only use it as a base and mix a bunch of other coverages and fronts in as well.

[PRBronco]

Bly certainly doesn't fit in Tampa 2, that is what Mariucci tried to have him play in Detroit and he was awful.

Bailey could fit just fine, he is a secure tackler and supports the run well. It would probably be a waste of his man to man cover skills though.

Moss and Dumervil would both fit quite nicely in a Tampa 2 front where you rely on your pass rush from your ends and try not to blitz. Again the problem I see comes back to 2 things, we do not have the big runstuffing DTs we need to play this system, just like we didn't last year with Bates hybrid system, in the Tampa 2 you need at least one 2-gap DT since your ends often go for penetration rather than gap assignments, we also lack the very rangy safeties you need. Since the CBs play short zones the safeties have to cover all the backfield, and they need to have very good range or very good instincts to do so, and we just don't have that.

I've thought about this often, I wonder if Powell can be a 2 gapper type to allow Thomas and Robertson to rotate as the UT? Also you need a middle linebacker who can drop back and cover don't you? We don't have anything resembling that :-/

*edit* Just read Med's post about what Monte Kiffin has said about using 3 "will" style linebackers, didn't know that :)

[Mediator12]

Bly certainly doesn't fit in Tampa 2, that is what Mariucci tried to have him play in Detroit and he was awful.

Bailey could fit just fine, he is a secure tackler and supports the run well. It would probably be a waste of his man to man cover skills though.

Moss and Dumervil would both fit quite nicely in a Tampa 2 front where you rely on your pass rush from your ends and try not to blitz. Again the problem I see comes back to 2 things, we do not have the big runstuffing DTs we need to play this system, just like we didn't last year with Bates hybrid system, in the Tampa 2 you need at least one 2-gap DT since your ends often go for penetration rather than gap assignments, we also lack the very rangy safeties you need. Since the CBs play short zones the safeties have to cover all the backfield, and they need to have very good range or very good instincts to do so, and we just don't have that.

Bly would fit the Tampa 2 with the right fronts and playing on the right instead of the left as well. Just because DET was just as bad or worse defensively than DEN, does not mean Bly is a poor fit, just not used properly like the last 2 years in DEN!

Big Run stuffing DT's are not necessary, just Good at stopping the run first and attacking the QB from the UT position. The safeties do not need to be as rangy because they are playing thirds not halves like Traditional cover 2. The Mike Plays deep middle third between the hashes and the safeties play outside. The DE's are also one gap play the run on the way to the QB like Freeney and Mathis in INDY; Brown, Ogunleye, and Anderson in CHI, or Adams, White, and Carter in TB.

[PRBronco]

Bly would fit the Tampa 2 with the right fronts and playing on the right instead of the left as well. Just because DET was just as bad or worse defensively than DEN, does not mean Bly is a poor fit, just not used properly like the last 2 years in DEN!

Big Run stuffing DT's are not necessary, just Good at stopping the run first and attacking the QB from the UT position. The safeties do not need to be as rangy because they are playing thirds not halves like Traditional cover 2. The Mike Plays deep middle third between the hashes and the safeties play outside. The DE's are also one gap play the run on the way to the QB like Freeney and Mathis in INDY; Brown, Ogunleye, and Anderson in CHI, or Adams, White, and Carter in TB.

Do you think Boss could play this role (when not injured)?

[Mediator12]

Do you think Boss could play this role (when not injured)?

Nope, you need a player that can be tough inside the tackles and shed. That would be more Woodyard than Bailey. Guys like Wilson, Urlacher, Barret Ruud.

[socalorado]

Bly would fit the Tampa 2 with the right fronts and playing on the right instead of the left as well. Just because DET was just as bad or worse defensively than DEN, does not mean Bly is a poor fit, just not used properly like the last 2 years in DEN!

Big Run stuffing DT's are not necessary, just Good at stopping the run first and attacking the QB from the UT position. The safeties do not need to be as rangy because they are playing thirds not halves like Traditional cover 2. The Mike Plays deep middle third between the hashes and the safeties play outside. The DE's are also one gap play the run on the way to the QB like Freeney and Mathis in INDY; Brown, Ogunleye, and Anderson in CHI, or Adams, White, and Carter in TB.

Bly does not fit the tampa 2, man. No.
He would have to go, and thats not a bad thing.
I am all for the Tampa 2 but there would need to be a change at the D-Coord. spot. Now that Monte is going to TENN, Raheem Morris will more than likely get the D-Coord spot in TB, so who? Herm?!?!? *sighs*
Going Tampa 2 also allows the broncos alot of flexibility in the 1st round of this years draft. Not so handcuffed to one or two players now.

[socalorado]

Nope, you need a player that can be tough inside the tackles and shed. That would be more Woodyard than Bailey. Guys like Wilson, Urlacher, Barret Ruud.

Not that i am a homer for him, but Brian Cushing would be a beast in the Tampa 2.
He can run a 4.5 40, and can shed any blocks and is great dropping back in coverage.
Seriously, I am not a big fan, just sayin....

[Mediator12]

Bly does not fit the tampa 2, man. No.
He would have to go, and thats not a bad thing.
I am all for the Tampa 2 but there would need to be a change at the D-Coord. spot. Now that Monte is going to TENN, Raheem Morris will more than likely get the D-Coord spot in TB, so who? Herm?!?!? *sighs*
Going Tampa 2 also allows the broncos alot of flexibility in the 1st round of this years draft. Not so handcuffed to one or two players now.

I tend to disagree with a lot of people about Bly, because I watch Every CB in the NFL every week. Bly does have the Tackling skills and coverage ability of players like Nathan Vasher, Philip Buchanon, Marlin Jackson, and the like. He could be an excellent LCB in that system, he just was not as effective as a RCB in that woefully inadequate DET Scheme that also lacked a pass rush.

As For Raheem, I would rather bring in Rod Marinelli to be DC and DL coach. He built the DL scheme in TB when they were a regular SB contending defense. He fine tuned the over and under fronts and does have a knack for DL talent. He got decent players to play better and great ones to excel. Just my 2 cents...

[ward63]

I would rather just get some bigger guys up front first of all and if we can get WWIII bigger, i would love it because he has an "Al Wilson heart" in a smaller body

[socalorado]

I tend to disagree with a lot of people about Bly, because I watch Every CB in the NFL every week. Bly does have the Tackling skills and coverage ability of players like Nathan Vasher, Philip Buchanon, Marlin Jackson, and the like. He could be an excellent LCB in that system, he just was not as effective as a RCB in that woefully inadequate DET Scheme that also lacked a pass rush.

As For Raheem, I would rather bring in Rod Marinelli to be DC and DL coach. He built the DL scheme in TB when they were a regular SB contending defense. He fine tuned the over and under fronts and does have a knack for DL talent. He got decent players to play better and great ones to excel. Just my 2 cents...

I just think Blys a clown.
As For Marinelli, SURE! Get him in here today!
I like Raheem causes hes so young and he gets his guys up for games. I dont think someone like Bly would mix well with him. Who knows.

[Inkana7]

Clown? Bly's a playmaker. He's been huge in our wins this year.

[Fusionfrontman]

Trade DJ. Hard as it is to believe he's not the playmaker that Woodyard is at Will and that's his best position. He makes tackels at MLB but they're mostly downfield. He's not a great pass rusher and he dissapears at SAM so why keep him just becuase he's a former #1? If we wind up playing Woodyard at Will then DJ will either have to go or be no more than a pretty good MLB. Larsen is probably better suited for the middle even though he's slow. This whole defense needs to be revamped and today's experiment was just the start trying to find the combination that works best.

OH NO! Trade DJ!?! crap...where were you when I started this thread? hahaha
I do kinda agree tho. Woodyard has more upside.

[Drek]

We know this based on what? His only chance to start was stellar.

Saying he was "stellar" would be quite the exaggeration if you asked me.

Its the first time we saw an MLB who can actually shed blocks this year. He obviously didn't impress the coaching staff enough to not split time with Haggans after that game and to then split time even more thinly with Webster when he came back.

This board acts like Larsen was all over the field blowing people up. In reality even in his best outings of this season he was out shined by the LBs flanking him, Woodyard and Winborn.

Could he be a solid starting MLB? Sure, but I'd take a Laurinaitis or Maualuga over him any day of the week and while MLB is already a pretty good value selection early in the draft we're looking at one of the best LB classes in a very long time this year. It is the perfect time to get a real elite MLB.

Bly does not fit the tampa 2, man. No.
He would have to go, and thats not a bad thing.
I am all for the Tampa 2 but there would need to be a change at the D-Coord. spot. Now that Monte is going to TENN, Raheem Morris will more than likely get the D-Coord spot in TB, so who? Herm?!?!? *sighs*
Going Tampa 2 also allows the broncos alot of flexibility in the 1st round of this years draft. Not so handcuffed to one or two players now.

Bly's only problems with the Tampa 2 in Detroit is that he doesn't want to play Tampa 2. He made it pretty clear that he's got a severe distaste for any coverage scheme that doesn't have him manning up on a guy. At least his comments then suggested it pretty strongly. I'd hope that age has tempered those sentiments, because if he actually took the challenge of a cover 2 scheme he could be a killer compliment to Champ and play a hell of a lot longer. His play reading and ball skills would fit great in that system.

Like a lot of what Med has said about the Tampa 2, especially Marinelli as the person to implement it here. Fits our talent very well.

An FYI for people interested though, on NFL Sirius a few days ago they were discussing Tampa's D and said that the most they've ran the Tampa 2 in a single game was 60% of the defensive snaps. The average on the season was somewhere at or below 50% as well if I recall. Its not like all you run is a cover 2 shell, you change it up a lot more than that, but it gives your coverages another weapon.

I'd be all for it, especially if a professional like Marinelli was the guy we got to install it.

[Fusionfrontman]

Saying he was "stellar" would be quite the exaggeration if you asked me.

Its the first time we saw an MLB who can actually shed blocks this year. He obviously didn't impress the coaching staff enough to not split time with Haggans after that game and to then split time even more thinly with Webster when he came back.

This board acts like Larsen was all over the field blowing people up. In reality even in his best outings of this season he was out shined by the LBs flanking him, Woodyard and Winborn.

Could he be a solid starting MLB? Sure, but I'd take a Laurinaitis or Maualuga over him any day of the week and while MLB is already a pretty good value selection early in the draft we're looking at one of the best LB classes in a very long time this year. It is the perfect time to get a real elite MLB.



Bly's only problems with the Tampa 2 in Detroit is that he doesn't want to play Tampa 2. He made it pretty clear that he's got a severe distaste for any coverage scheme that doesn't have him manning up on a guy. At least his comments then suggested it pretty strongly. I'd hope that age has tempered those sentiments, because if he actually took the challenge of a cover 2 scheme he could be a killer compliment to Champ and play a hell of a lot longer. His play reading and ball skills would fit great in that system.

Like a lot of what Med has said about the Tampa 2, especially Marinelli as the person to implement it here. Fits our talent very well.

An FYI for people interested though, on NFL Sirius a few days ago they were discussing Tampa's D and said that the most they've ran the Tampa 2 in a single game was 60% of the defensive snaps. The average on the season was somewhere at or below 50% as well if I recall. Its not like all you run is a cover 2 shell, you change it up a lot more than that, but it gives your coverages another weapon.

I'd be all for it, especially if a professional like Marinelli was the guy we got to install it.


I love reading informative posts like this. Actually breaking down football schemes and stuff, so really good post. Same with Mediator.

I'm down with whatever scheme that works that fits who will beon our roster next year the best. Bring in a guy who can build a scheme around our guys, not the Bates other way around way. That didn't work and we got stuck with players that are useless. Sam adams, DJ in the middle, ect ect.

[BroncoBuff]

Remember, Brian Urlacher was a safety-converted WLB-converted MLB for a lot of the same traits as Woody.
Good point. Urlacher's much bigger, but Al Wilson was what? 6-foot 240? Woodyard can definitely tackle well enough, let's give him a shot in camp next summer.


WLB: DJ, Green
MLB: Woody, Webster, Larsen (probably also be our starting FB next year)
SLB: Boss, Winborn
I like it ... except the part where you call Woodyard "Woody."

[Mediator12]

Saying he was "stellar" would be quite the exaggeration if you asked me.

Its the first time we saw an MLB who can actually shed blocks this year. He obviously didn't impress the coaching staff enough to not split time with Haggans after that game and to then split time even more thinly with Webster when he came back.

This board acts like Larsen was all over the field blowing people up. In reality even in his best outings of this season he was out shined by the LBs flanking him, Woodyard and Winborn.

Could he be a solid starting MLB? Sure, but I'd take a Laurinaitis or Maualuga over him any day of the week and while MLB is already a pretty good value selection early in the draft we're looking at one of the best LB classes in a very long time this year. It is the perfect time to get a real elite MLB.



Bly's only problems with the Tampa 2 in Detroit is that he doesn't want to play Tampa 2. He made it pretty clear that he's got a severe distaste for any coverage scheme that doesn't have him manning up on a guy. At least his comments then suggested it pretty strongly. I'd hope that age has tempered those sentiments, because if he actually took the challenge of a cover 2 scheme he could be a killer compliment to Champ and play a hell of a lot longer. His play reading and ball skills would fit great in that system.

Like a lot of what Med has said about the Tampa 2, especially Marinelli as the person to implement it here. Fits our talent very well.

An FYI for people interested though, on NFL Sirius a few days ago they were discussing Tampa's D and said that the most they've ran the Tampa 2 in a single game was 60% of the defensive snaps. The average on the season was somewhere at or below 50% as well if I recall. Its not like all you run is a cover 2 shell, you change it up a lot more than that, but it gives your coverages another weapon.

I'd be all for it, especially if a professional like Marinelli was the guy we got to install it.

Drek, Tampa has actually run the Tampa 2 much less than that this year. We are talking 30% of the time as opposed to 50% and mostly on third down and long. They have run a ton of nickle and have actually run more cover 3 than Cover 2 this year by my count. They have also run a lot of zone blitzes with Gaines Adams dropping into coverage in the flat. He has 2 INT's and several passes defended from those plays.

Where your very right is the Tampa 2 is a base defense to build all the rest of the plays around. The scheme builds off this concept with gap integrity, fronts, coverages, and terminology. It does not mean they run cover 2 out of every base package. It is just the base to build how the defense works.

[TheReverend]

I tend to disagree with a lot of people about Bly, because I watch Every CB in the NFL every week. Bly does have the Tackling skills and coverage ability of players like Nathan Vasher, Philip Buchanon, Marlin Jackson, and the like. He could be an excellent LCB in that system, he just was not as effective as a RCB in that woefully inadequate DET Scheme that also lacked a pass rush.

As For Raheem, I would rather bring in Rod Marinelli to be DC and DL coach. He built the DL scheme in TB when they were a regular SB contending defense. He fine tuned the over and under fronts and does have a knack for DL talent. He got decent players to play better and great ones to excel. Just my 2 cents...

Do you have your R and L mixed up? I'm pretty sure Bly was playing the left spot at Detroit. I'll have to find some old Detroit clips to make sure.

As for Marinelli... what the hell are you smoking?

I understand as a HC he doesn't have the volume of time to spend with the players he did in Tampa, but what he's done to that defensive line is astrocious. First, he's unable to properly utilize a talent like Shaun ****ing Rodgers, then he over values Cory Redding and ships Shaun out of town, and then he replaces him with one of his TB scrubs in Darby.

It's been a decade since Marinelli has developed jack ****. He took over a talented and young defensive line and turned them into an inept laughing stock on a worse level than what we're dealing with.

[TheReverend]

One last little note about Rod Marinelli and developing talent on the defensive line for Tampa...

What did he do that a monkey couldn't have done? The guy (and I use that term loosely) coached Warren Sapp and Simeon Rice in their prime! Situations like that lend absolutely ZERO opportunity to fail.

I'll sign on to be Champ Bailey's coach and then I'll take credit for developing him and parlay it into a HC job.

[2KBack]

One last little note about Rod Marinelli and developing talent on the defensive line for Tampa...

What did he do that a monkey couldn't have done? The guy (and I use that term loosely) coached Warren Sapp and Simeon Rice in their prime! Situations like that lend absolutely ZERO opportunity to fail.

I'll sign on to be Champ Bailey's coach and then I'll take credit for developing him and parlay it into a HC job.

You've touched the grey area of how much value there is in coaches developing players. Did Marinelli make Rice and Sapp, or was it the other way around. We have players with physical attributes equal or better than Rice and Sapp, maybe it takes the right coach to make them viable players.

[TheReverend]

You've touched the grey area of how much value there is in coaches developing players. Did Marinelli make Rice and Sapp, or was it the other way around. We have players with physical attributes equal or better than Rice and Sapp, maybe it takes the right coach to make them viable players.

You can potentially make that argument about Rice, though from watching their America's Game special, you can't really come away under the impression he's a big practice guy that takes coaching favorably. Regardless, he had to beat his man, but his impact was probably amplified three fold by Warren.

Sapp's rookie season came before Marinelli, on the other hand, cracked the starting line up during the season and immediately made his presence felt.

Truly GREAT players are a mix of freakish athleticism and hard work beyond the practice field. Development didn't end for Jerry Rice when the final practice whistle blew. What's a coach going to tell him? What's a coach going to tell Reggie White? Champ Bailey? Ray Lewis? Lawrence Taylor?

Some guys need bonafide development. That's when real coaching takes place and why guys like Bobby Turner and Alex Gibbs are so invaluable. GREAT players need polish, at most and would be individually successful in just about any circumstance.

[TheReverend]

MASSIVE brain fart. Cannot believe I forgot this.

Nevermind. You can't say Marinelli developed Simeon Rice at all either. He was a Cardinal before a Buc and had his most successful individual season there.

Just more evidence that Marinelli is a joke.