View Full Version : What is the (draft pick) value you would place on the following players?
SoCalBronco
11-02-2008, 08:04 PM
We're going to have to get the picks somehow.
Shanny is too stubborn to agree to accept even less than equal chart value in order to move down (even though he should), so how are we going to pull this off?
What can we get for each of these guys?
A. Selvin Young
(My guess: a 7th)
B. Daniel Graham
(My guess: a 4th. At this point, I'm willing to eat the salary, because I hate the idea of a babysitter for the OL being paid so much when the OTs are already badasses and don't need a babysitter anymore and also beause he's the only one that might get us any kind of value in return. It will be a cap hit for one year, but there should be good savings on the base salaries after that.)
C. Kenny Peterson
(My guess: a 6th)
D. Nate Webster)
(My guess: a 6th)
E. Jamie Winborn
(My guess: a 6th. However, I do not approve of trading Winborn, because he's cheap and versatile and can start. The value he provides is worth more than we could get for him)
It doesn't look promising.
Id like for us to sign Peppers or Suggs. Doing that would make Moss or Dumervil expendable. Since Moss is coming on and since Dumervil has greater trade value, Doom is the logical choice to move. I think he could get a 2nd.
SoCalBronco
11-02-2008, 08:25 PM
Id like for us to sign Peppers or Suggs. Doing that would make Moss or Dumervil expendable. Since Moss is coming on and since Dumervil has greater trade value, Doom is the logical choice to move. I think he could get a 2nd.
Doom is one of the bigger reasons why our run defense is poor. He does have real pass rushing skill but I highly doubt he would fetch a 2nd. I can't see the coaches giving away their only proven pass rusher, either. I wouldn't exactly say that Moss is coming on, either. He's active now, which is nice and made a few nice plays today, but he's still far away from what he needs to be.
If someone did offer a 2 for Doom, though, I'd definitely take it. If we could get a 4 for Graham, too, that would be good. That would mean all we need left is to get an additional 3 and we could probably move down in the first to get that 3 by giving up some extra value on the chart.
socalorado
11-02-2008, 08:27 PM
Id like for us to sign Peppers or Suggs. Doing that would make Moss or Dumervil expendable. Since Moss is coming on and since Dumervil has greater trade value, Doom is the logical choice to move. I think he could get a 2nd.
Package Doom, Young and a 2010 pick, for a 2nd and a 6th.
DEN then needs to bite the bullet and take ALL the 5ths, 6ths and 7ths and package them for another high 2nd. its the only way.....unless you guys can think of a better scenario.
Doom is one of the bigger reasons why our run defense is poor. He does have real pass rushing skill but I highly doubt he would fetch a 2nd. I can't see the coaches giving away their only proven pass rusher, either. I wouldn't exactly say that Moss is coming on, either. He's active now, which is nice and made a few nice plays today, but he's still far away from what he needs to be.
If someone did offer a 2 for Doom, though, I'd definitely take it. If we could get a 4 for Graham, too, that would be good. That would mean all we need left is to get an additional 3 and we could probably move down in the first to get that 3 by giving up some extra value on the chart.
What about trading Scheffler? He's a talent which is why I like him but its also why he would have trade value possibly. The guy is never healthy though. Still maybe he could get us a 2nd or 3rd. And then we could draft a receiving TE that there seems to be an abundance of now days.
Package Doom, Young and a 2010 pick, for a 2nd and a 6th.
DEN then needs to bite the bullet and take ALL the 5ths, 6ths and 7ths and package them for another high 2nd. its the only way.....unless you guys can think of a better scenario.
I dont think that would work.
SoCalBronco
11-02-2008, 08:35 PM
What about trading Scheffler? He's a talent which is why I like him but its also why he would have trade value possibly. The guy is never healthy though. Still maybe he could get us a 2nd or 3rd. And then we could draft a receiving TE that there seems to be an abundance of now days.
He's too important. He has a special chemistry with Jay and is one of the best 10 TE's in football even though his blocking is ****. His absence has been evident the last few weeks. This guy is a huge stud.
I'd much rather get rid of Graham than Scheffler.
He's too important. He has a special chemistry with Jay and is one of the best 10 TE's in football even though his blocking is ****. His absence has been evident the last few weeks. This guy is a huge stud.
I'd much rather get rid of Graham than Scheffler.
Yeah, but he's frequently injured. How important can he be if he is injured so often?
SoCalBronco
11-02-2008, 08:40 PM
Yeah, but he's frequently injured. How important can he be if he is injured so often?
I'm praying that the last injury will be his last for awhile.
Hopefully I'm not drinking the Kool Aid in that hope, because he's a certified stud when he's on the field.
I'm praying that the last injury will be his last for awhile.
Hopefully I'm not drinking the Kool Aid in that hope, because he's a certified stud when he's on the field.
The other thing to consider, and I realize its only one game, but Hillis did a lot of damage today in situations where one might expect Scheffler to do damage. And after having seen a lot of him in college, today wasnt a fluke with Hillis.
SoCalBronco
11-02-2008, 08:52 PM
The other thing to consider, and I realize its only one game, but Hillis did a lot of damage today in situations where one might expect Scheffler to do damage. And after having seen a lot of him in college, today wasnt a fluke with Hillis.
It doesnt surprise me, either. I was extremely happy on draft day and made a thread on this very issue (Hillis in the pass game) at the time. I don't think, though, that it would be a reason to justify getting rid of Scheff since there would be an H-Back type replacement for him in Hillis (I don't agree that he's really a replacement because Scheff is still a bigger matchup problem and is more of a deep threat). I think the presence of both would be great in terms of providing us with alot of ways to attack subpar LBs in coverage. I'm glad they are getting Hillis involved.
The ideal situation is having Marshall, Royal, Schieffler and Hillis all on the field at once. So it would be better to get rid of Graham.
NFLBRONCO
11-02-2008, 08:55 PM
How is RB class in 09?
It doesnt surprise me, either. I was extremely happy on draft day and made a thread on this very issue (Hillis in the pass game) at the time. I don't think, though, that it would be a reason to justify getting rid of Scheff since there would be an H-Back type replacement for him in Hillis (I don't agree that he's really a replacement because Scheff is still a bigger matchup problem and is more of a deep threat). I think the presence of both would be great in terms of providing us with alot of ways to attack subpar LBs in coverage. I'm glad they are getting Hillis involved.
The ideal situation is having Marshall, Royal, Schieffler and Hillis all on the field at once. So it would be better to get rid of Graham.
Well, you would potentially have Hillis, Royal, and Marshall. Scheffler would be a nice piece too but I would at least listen to offers. Theres an abundance of receiving TEs in the draft more and more these days. But our bigger problem is rounding out other areas of our team. If trading Scheffler could help us become a better running team or better on defense, its definitely worth considering.
How is RB class in 09?
Decent.
nickademus
11-02-2008, 09:17 PM
How is RB class in 09?
Not as good as 08 but better than 07
Breaker
11-03-2008, 03:54 AM
How is RB class in 09?
Weak in terms of top end talent like a Bush or McFadden, but some guys like Knowshawn Moreno, CJ Spiller, etc are probably solid NFL players.
Denver724
11-03-2008, 06:56 AM
How is RB class in 09?
I think it could be solid depending on Jr's. Remember the name LeSean McCoy (PITT). The guy is unreal.
Weak in terms of top end talent like a Bush or McFadden, but some guys like Knowshawn Moreno, CJ Spiller, etc are probably solid NFL players.
Beanie Wells is actually a better running back than Reggie Bush. He has speed at 235 lbs and is willing to lower his shoulder. And he plays well in big games. He's torched Michigan more than once and he took it to the house against LSU. I like Spiller though too. He is so explosive and can help in the passing game too.
nickademus
11-03-2008, 08:28 AM
Beanie Wells is actually a better running back than Reggie Bush. He has speed at 235 lbs and is willing to lower his shoulder. And he plays well in big games. He's torched Michigan more than once and he took it to the house against LSU. I like Spiller though too. He is so explosive and can help in the passing game too.
The thing that has bugged me about Wells is sometimes he totally disapears. He has the talent to dominate but it seems like he needs some motivation. I love that he gets up for big games but I would like a more consistant effort out of a guy who could be as good as he can. I like Spiller and going into the season I was keeping an eye on the Clemson rb Davis. I saw the kid from Pitt this weekend against ND he looked good and seemed to get better as the game wore on (I love that) so I will keep watching but I like what I see.
mattob14
11-03-2008, 01:12 PM
We're going to have to get the picks somehow.
Shanny is too stubborn to agree to accept even less than equal chart value in order to move down (even though he should), so how are we going to pull this off?
What can we get for each of these guys?
A. Selvin Young
(My guess: a 7th)
B. Daniel Graham
(My guess: a 4th. At this point, I'm willing to eat the salary, because I hate the idea of a babysitter for the OL being paid so much when the OTs are already badasses and don't need a babysitter anymore and also beause he's the only one that might get us any kind of value in return. It will be a cap hit for one year, but there should be good savings on the base salaries after that.)
C. Kenny Peterson
(My guess: a 6th)
D. Nate Webster)
(My guess: a 6th)
E. Jamie Winborn
(My guess: a 6th. However, I do not approve of trading Winborn, because he's cheap and versatile and can start. The value he provides is worth more than we could get for him)
It doesn't look promising.
Probably pretty close here, and I don't think anyone would have a problem moving any of these guys, with the exception of Graham. I don't know that he would have even a 4th round value at this point, since he hasn't shown any receiving ability in his time here. It would be tough to swollow the cap hit too.
The good news is, we may not need to move players to pick up another 1st day pick. With the direction this team is headed, we should be in the top half of the draft and could add another pick through a trade down. Our needs don't match up real well with the top talent in the draft, but there's a lot of depth at S, LB, DE (assuming the juniors come out), C, and even a few intriguing RB values. Of course, we've all been wanting to trade down for several years now and it hasn't happened yet (at least since the Redskins deal in '05).
Hercules Rockefeller
11-03-2008, 03:25 PM
We're going to have to get the picks somehow.
No, they don't. They're already a +2 for next April. How many of these guys do you actually expect to make the team, or do you just want them to give away vets and do a spray and pray approach?
This team needs vocal, veteran leadership more than anything at this point. Draft picks are not going to provide that.
Probably pretty close here, and I don't think anyone would have a problem moving any of these guys, with the exception of Graham. I don't know that he would have even a 4th round value at this point, since he hasn't shown any receiving ability in his time here. It would be tough to swollow the cap hit too.
The good news is, we may not need to move players to pick up another 1st day pick. With the direction this team is headed, we should be in the top half of the draft and could add another pick through a trade down. Our needs don't match up real well with the top talent in the draft, but there's a lot of depth at S, LB, DE (assuming the juniors come out), C, and even a few intriguing RB values. Of course, we've all been wanting to trade down for several years now and it hasn't happened yet (at least since the Redskins deal in '05).
By intriguing RB values, Im going to assume you mean what we've been doing for the last few years.
theAPAOps5
11-03-2008, 07:33 PM
I never understand you and your moving down theory. Its ludicrous and bad draft management. If there is one thing we have learned its that you don't find value in the late picks of the 1st rounds. You find players that are stretches, thats what has hurt this rebuilding process.
Shanahan has amassed picks where the team is better at finding serviceable talent and that is the middle rounds. So don't trade anything or anyone and use what you have.
God I hate the whole trade down for picks theory almost as much as the lets get a losing mentality and tank to get a better pick mentality.
You do your homework and if you have to trade to move UP in the 1st to get talent and then draft for quality but DO NOT MOVE BACK OR TRADE TALENT.
nickademus
11-03-2008, 07:44 PM
Apa you can trade talent if it is redundant. if we were to sign peppers or suggs then doom is expendable. I dont like trading down either IMHO unless you have the first pick in a draft with no clear cut option for that pick then trading down is dumb just take your guy.
SoCalBronco
11-03-2008, 07:46 PM
No, they don't. They're already a +2 for next April. How many of these guys do you actually expect to make the team, or do you just want them to give away vets and do a spray and pray approach?
This team needs vocal, veteran leadership more than anything at this point. Draft picks are not going to provide that.
+2 is not an appreciable advantage over anyone. What is it that we have over and above the average team? A 5th and a 7th. That's bull****.
They have NOTHING of value on anyone else. NOTHING. Meanwhile, we're sitting here needing 2 DEs, another DT, at least 1 LB, a RB, another interior OL, two safeties and probably another CB for depth purposes.
Vocal, veteran leadership is not really worth alot when you don't have the horses. I suspect if Engelberger or Ekuban held a team only meeting, the DL would still get stoned. I deal in tangibles. Don't tell me about "leadership". That doesn't help someone beat an OT around the corner. It doesn't help someone get to the sideline from the hash faster.
What is required is not leadership, but talent.
theAPAOps5
11-03-2008, 07:51 PM
Apa you can trade talent if it is redundant. if we were to sign peppers or suggs then doom is expendable. I dont like trading down either IMHO unless you have the first pick in a draft with no clear cut option for that pick then trading down is dumb just take your guy.
IMHO you don't trade your pick if you are chosing 1 through 11. Which this team is heading for.
I will give you Doom because he isn't a run stopping DE. But I abhor moving down and think its a horrid way to build your team. The stars need to align where you can amass picks and get the game changer you need but that happens less and less now days.
nickademus
11-03-2008, 08:14 PM
IMHO you don't trade your pick if you are chosing 1 through 11. Which this team is heading for.
I will give you Doom because he isn't a run stopping DE. But I abhor moving down and think its a horrid way to build your team. The stars need to align where you can amass picks and get the game changer you need but that happens less and less now days.
Normally I agree with you but lets take SF in 05 do you really want to take Utah's version of Cliff Kingsbury? and then give mr. smith the contract and pressure that goes with the #1 pick? to me in that particular situation you do everything in your power to trade that pick.
kdissette
11-04-2008, 09:02 AM
Dumervil-i think 2nd at best but 3rd is good value for an expiring contract
webster-6th
Mcdaniel-6th
young-6th
hall-7th
graham-4th
scheffler-5th
d.jack-6th (not sure if hes under 1yr deal or not)
peterson-6th
engleberger-5th
ekuban-7th
this isnt good, dumervil is our most valueable expendable guy by far
gyldenlove
11-04-2008, 09:09 AM
We're going to have to get the picks somehow.
Shanny is too stubborn to agree to accept even less than equal chart value in order to move down (even though he should), so how are we going to pull this off?
What can we get for each of these guys?
A. Selvin Young
(My guess: a 7th)
Nothing, he is way too injury prone to represent any value.
B. Daniel Graham
(My guess: a 4th. At this point, I'm willing to eat the salary, because I hate the idea of a babysitter for the OL being paid so much when the OTs are already badasses and don't need a babysitter anymore and also beause he's the only one that might get us any kind of value in return. It will be a cap hit for one year, but there should be good savings on the base salaries after that.)
5th, he is a blocking expert with a good attitude. He still has several years left and for a team with a shakey offensive line and lackluster run game he could be a major upgrade.
C. Kenny Peterson
(My guess: a 6th)
Nothing, he is a rotational player who is not a good fit at neither DT nor DE.
D. Nate Webster
(My guess: a 6th)
We could probably give up Webster and a 6th round pick to get a 7th round pick back. He is completely useless, he doesn't play special teams, he has a long and painful injury history and he has proven that he can't play SLB or MLB.
E. Jamie Winborn
(My guess: a 6th. However, I do not approve of trading Winborn, because he's cheap and versatile and can start. The value he provides is worth more than we could get for him)
Nothing, he was a free agent last year and got no major interest. Winborn is the player of this bunch I would be most opposed to losing, he is a decent backup, a good special teamer and on a very affordable deal.
It doesn't look promising.
gyldenlove
11-04-2008, 09:25 AM
I never understand you and your moving down theory. Its ludicrous and bad draft management. If there is one thing we have learned its that you don't find value in the late picks of the 1st rounds. You find players that are stretches, thats what has hurt this rebuilding process.
Shanahan has amassed picks where the team is better at finding serviceable talent and that is the middle rounds. So don't trade anything or anyone and use what you have.
God I hate the whole trade down for picks theory almost as much as the lets get a losing mentality and tank to get a better pick mentality.
You do your homework and if you have to trade to move UP in the 1st to get talent and then draft for quality but DO NOT MOVE BACK OR TRADE TALENT.
If I am drafting number 1 overall I would drop back to between 3 and 6, if I am drafting between 6 and 9 I would drop back to 12-14. If I am drafting anywhere else I stay put.
It only makes sense to trade back if you are in the top of the 1st round because dropping back a bit will gain you a lot of value. This is why it almost never happens, it is too expensive to move up a couple of spots. The talent in the bottom end of the top 10 is very comparable to the talent in the top teens, but you can still flip a 4th rounder to a 2nd rounder or get a 3rd rounder for the trouble.
If you draft in the teens or lower there is no sense in moving down unless you have 3 or 4 players targeted who are all available. You don't get enough value for it and instead of getting a good player you get a player with questionmarks.
I am not much for moving up the draft unless you draft in the 20s and can move into the mid teens where you can still get prime talent.
The players taken in the end of round 1 are typically either athleted with quesntionable football skills or players of marginal positions (such as tight ends (Keller and Graham)) or players who are not top of their positions.
I would say a best case scenario for us is to win the AFC West with an 8-8 record and draft in the 16-20 area.
Right now I see our primary needs as MLB and S (these should get serious consideration for round 1 and 2), I see our secondary needs as DE (big power end), RB (Hall and Young are injury liabilities and Pittman is old), SLB. We need depth CB, DT and S.
mattob14
11-04-2008, 03:48 PM
I never understand you and your moving down theory. Its ludicrous and bad draft management. If there is one thing we have learned its that you don't find value in the late picks of the 1st rounds. You find players that are stretches, thats what has hurt this rebuilding process.
Shanahan has amassed picks where the team is better at finding serviceable talent and that is the middle rounds. So don't trade anything or anyone and use what you have.
God I hate the whole trade down for picks theory almost as much as the lets get a losing mentality and tank to get a better pick mentality.
You do your homework and if you have to trade to move UP in the 1st to get talent and then draft for quality but DO NOT MOVE BACK OR TRADE TALENT.
If we could go BPA, it'd make since to hold onto a higher pick. But with our defense in shambles, I'd think we have a pretty good shot of picking MLB or S in round 1. I don't think any of the Safeties are worth a top-12 pick and, personally, I like Spikes as much as JL or Maualuga at MLB. If we could move down and get a similar player 10 spots later, why not pick up an extra 2nd or 3rd?
if you trade graham i d et dollars to donuts youd be complaining about stalling in short yardages next year
nickademus
11-05-2008, 07:00 AM
I agree Graham should stay he helps make our line one of the best in the league.
BroncoMan4ever
11-05-2008, 02:49 PM
why does everyone want to dump Doom?
he is our only pass rusher. and nobody give me that crap about Moss being able to replace him. Moss won't match Doom's sack output for another 3 years at least. i would rather trade Moss because other teams in the league know he has possible potential and would trade for him, but Doom is the only DE worth a damn on this roster. We need to do whatever we can to get Peppers and pair them on passing downs and let offenses shake in fear.
mattob14
11-05-2008, 02:58 PM
why does everyone want to dump Doom?
he is our only pass rusher. and nobody give me that crap about Moss being able to replace him. Moss won't match Doom's sack output for another 3 years at least. i would rather trade Moss because other teams in the league know he has possible potential and would trade for him, but Doom is the only DE worth a damn on this roster. We need to do whatever we can to get Peppers and pair them on passing downs and let offenses shake in fear.
Dumerville's one of the few players on our roster that has any trade value. Moss wouldn't bring back anything more than a mid-rounder at this point. Also, Doom's due for an extension and the market value for a pass-rusher is pretty high right now. So, are we better off holding onto Doom and paying top-dollar for a pass-rush specialist, or moving him, adding an extra pick, and using the cap space elsewhere? Saving the money on him may be the difference between going out and signing a Haynesworth/Peppers/Suggs or standing pat.
nickademus
11-05-2008, 07:31 PM
Dumerville's one of the few players on our roster that has any trade value. Moss wouldn't bring back anything more than a mid-rounder at this point. Also, Doom's due for an extension and the market value for a pass-rusher is pretty high right now. So, are we better off holding onto Doom and paying top-dollar for a pass-rush specialist, or moving him, adding an extra pick, and using the cap space elsewhere? Saving the money on him may be the difference between going out and signing a Haynesworth/Peppers/Suggs or standing pat.
Great post. I love doom but the fact is he is a liability against the run and is going to command a pretty hefty contract very soon. IMHO if we were to ship im for a pick it would be worth it for a 3rd or better.
BroncoMan4ever
11-05-2008, 10:03 PM
Great post. I love doom but the fact is he is a liability against the run and is going to command a pretty hefty contract very soon. IMHO if we were to ship im for a pick it would be worth it for a 3rd or better.
Doom won't be able to command a big money contract when his rookie contract expires. Anywhere else in the league he is a situational player. He is a liability in the run and for that reason he would only be able to command around 3 or 4 million a year. i think that is a good bargain for a guy who has the potential to be a double digit sack DE, especially if we can get a guy like Peppers to take his LE spot and make him a situational guy.
If we could get a good DE that can take his LE position and move him to RE, no longer is he going up against the most athletic O-linemen, he can be set loose and actually increase his output if he isn't constantly having to fight off double teams.
if we let Doom go and let Moss take over his spot, the DL play gets worse than it is, and because of the lack of a pass rush our secondary looks terrible again.
I am not for shipping out young talented players to get draft picks. however our replaceable guys I am fine seeing them go. We have 9 picks next season, that is enough, especially considering we will be players in FA again.
BroncoMan4ever
11-05-2008, 10:15 PM
IMHO you don't trade your pick if you are chosing 1 through 11. Which this team is heading for.
I will give you Doom because he isn't a run stopping DE. But I abhor moving down and think its a horrid way to build your team. The stars need to align where you can amass picks and get the game changer you need but that happens less and less now days.
we should trade our pick if we end up picking top 10. the only MLB in the 1st slated to go that early is Maualuga and I would take Spikes over him and he will be a mid to late round pick. so i say trade back to the 20's and pick up an additional 2nd round pick so we can draft,
Spikes in the 1st, Chung in the 2nd and Shonn Greene in the 2nd.
those 3 picks instantly upgrade this team, Spikes and Chung make our defense better and Greene instantly makes our offense better. better in the running game and makes Jay's job a hell of a lot easier as well as increases all passing stats, plus the defense looks better if they are not on the field 40 minutes a game.
this season has shown the system isn't going to guarantee you 1200 yards with anyone running the ball. we need a stud.