US planes attack Syria ? [Archive] - The Orange Mane

alkemical

10-27-2008, 05:40 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/27/syria-helicopter-attack

US forces kill eight in helicopter raid on Syria

* Ian Black, Middle East editor and Ewen MacAskill in Washington
* The Guardian,
* Monday October 27 2008

Damascus reacts with fury to what it says was a helicopter and special forces strike on its territory Link to this video

American helicopters flying from Iraq landed inside Syria yesterday and dropped special forces who killed eight people, the Damascus government said last night, as Washington admitted it had targeted "foreign fighters."

Syria warned that it held the US "wholly responsible for this act of aggression and all its repercussions".

It described the dead as Syrian civilians, five of them members of the same family. Syrian state television reported that the attack was against a farm near Abu Kamal, five miles from the Iraqi border. Doctors in nearby al-Sukkariya said another seven people were taken to hospital with bullet wounds.

The incident threatened to unleash a new wave of anti-American feeling in Syria and across the Middle East at a time when President Bashar al-Assad, already being courted by Europe, is looking forward to improved relations with Washington after the November 4 presidential election. News of the attack led bulletins across the Arab world last night - suggesting it will have wide resonance.

Syria summoned the US charge d'affaires in Damascus to explain the incident. It also called on the Iraqi government to prevent its airspace being used in this way in future.

Eyewitness accounts said eight US soldiers landed in two helicopters and that the dead were building workers. A senior Syrian source quoted by the official Sana news agency, said four helicopters violated Syrian airspace and described the target as a "civilian building under construction".

In Washington an unnamed military official told the Associated Press the raid had targeted elements of a "foreign fighter logistics network", and that, due to Syrian inaction, the US was "taking matters into our own hands". It was the first known American attack on Syrian soil.

Intriguingly, Farhan al-Mahalawi, mayor of the nearby Iraqi border town of Qaim, told the Reuters news agency that the targeted village had been surrounded by Syrian troops.

In Israel, a security official said Israel was not involved. Last year Israel destroyed an alleged nuclear site in northern Syria. Qaim has been a significant crossing point for foreign fighters, weapons and money entering Iraq to fuel the Sunni insurgency.

Only last Thursday, the commander of US forces in western Iraq told reporters American troops were redoubling efforts to secure the Syrian border. Major General John Kelly said Iraq's western borders with Saudi Arabia and Jordan were fairly tight as a result of good policing by security forces in those countries, but that Syria was a "different story".

Thabet Salem, a political analyst, told al-Jazeera TV that the US appeared to have mistaken building workers for infiltrators. "It will raise questions as to why this is happening towards the end of the current US administration," he said.

Late last year the then US commander, General David Petraeus, praised Syria's cooperation in reducing violence in Iraq. But Syria has since refused to restart intelligence sharing with the US until Washington recognises its assistance by returning an ambassador to Damascus.

Joshua Landis, an American expert on Syria, commented last night: "The Bush administration must assume that an Obama victory will force Syria to behave nicely in order to win favour with the new administration. Thus White House analysts may assume that it can have a "freebee" - taking a bit of personal revenge on Syria without the US paying a price."

The attack comes as Syria takes another step in from the cold today when its foreign minister, Walid al-Mualim, visits London to hear praise for its newly conciliatory policies in Lebanon - and to be urged to distance itself from Iran.

In recent months Syria has established diplomatic relations with Lebanon and held several rounds of indirect talks with Israel, with Turkey acting as broker. In July, President Assad was invited to an EU summit in Paris.

TailgateNut

10-27-2008, 05:43 AM

There was also a report of an attack launched iside Pakistan.

Garcia Bronco

10-27-2008, 05:58 AM

Hmmmm. We need more facts.

kappys

10-27-2008, 06:13 AM

What a nightmare. Now the mess in Iraq and Afghanistan is spilling over into a regional war.

We need a President who is going to get us out of there. Sadly I doubt Obama is the one to do it and Mccain prefers a hundred years in Iraq to any real peace

baja

10-27-2008, 06:42 AM

The incident threatened to unleash a new wave of anti-American feeling in Syria and across the Middle East at a time when President Bashar al-Assad, already being courted by Europe, is looking forward to improved relations with Washington after the November 4 presidential election. News of the attack led bulletins across the Arab world last night - suggesting it will have wide resonance.

I have been stopped twice today but after a few guick questions to my driver we was waved on.

baja

10-27-2008, 06:44 AM

Hmmmm. We need more facts.

No you (and many other Americans) need to get your head out of your ass. We are not the good guys you like to believe and one way or another you will learn this.

baja

10-27-2008, 06:46 AM

I was talking with my driver and he said many Iraqis liked Saddam depends if you are Sonni or Shiite.

alkemical

10-27-2008, 06:48 AM

I was talking with my driver and he said many Iraqis liked Saddam depends if you are Sonni or Shiite.

lol - "no, we don't like you - you are piece of shiite!"

BABronco

10-27-2008, 08:52 AM

lol - "no, we don't like you - you are piece of shiite!"

"oh yeah? well we don't like you because your a sonni a bitc h"

Hotrod

10-27-2008, 09:02 AM

Does anyone actually believe we targeted a family for no reason what so ever.

Freaking idiots

bronco militia

10-27-2008, 09:04 AM

they probably had it coming

baja

10-27-2008, 09:09 AM

they probably had it coming

Go here;

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/main.htm

watch this

Paladin

10-27-2008, 09:12 AM

And going.

Actually, the "farm" was a jumping off place for insurgents to move into and out of Iraq. Probably was a vacation spot with pool, bar, hohouse and massage parlor to ease those jangled terrorist nerves. A waystop on the road to the 72 virgins........

Rank&File

10-27-2008, 09:21 AM

No you (and many other Americans) need to get your head out of your ass. We are not the good guys you like to believe and one way or another you will learn this.

Get a grip...Don't pretend to know what's going on just because you're talking to some dude driving you around. The guy said we need more facts, which is true, and you jump him for it. Just because you're riding around in a car doesn't make you an expert. Take it easy on the rhetoric, it's a tired act.

Rohirrim

10-27-2008, 09:29 AM

Phuque Syria.

baja

10-27-2008, 10:11 AM

Get a grip...Don't pretend to know what's going on just because you're talking to some dude driving you around. The guy said we need more facts, which is true, and you jump him for it. Just because you're riding around in a car doesn't make you an expert. Take it easy on the rhetoric, it's a tired act.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

baja

10-27-2008, 10:14 AM

Phuque Syria.

Ya lets just go where we want and kill whom we wish after we got the biggest pile of nukes, right

alkemical

10-27-2008, 10:18 AM

So let me get this straight baja -

People are criticizing you for talking to citizens of another country, and then tell you not to take their word for it (the people you meet).

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 10:21 AM

It's funny how good ol' USA never screws up. This was a screw up. Plain and simple. Just like anyone anywhere in the world, this can all be made better by admitting we screwed up, and going hat in hand to Syria and apologize and see what we can do to make sure it doesn't happen again.

baja

10-27-2008, 10:22 AM

So let me get this straight baja -

People are criticizing you for talking to citizens of another country, and then tell you not to take their word for it (the people you meet).

Ya I must be nuts to consider the opinions of Middle Eastern people on affairs in the Middle East, what was I thinking.

alkemical

10-27-2008, 10:24 AM

Ya I must be nuts to consider the opinions of Middle Eastern people on affairs in the Middle East, what was I thinking.

Dude, you didn't get it from any american media? You actually went to the source! :)

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 10:25 AM

Ya I must be nuts to consider the opinions of Middle Eastern people on affairs in the Middle East, what was I thinking.

you mean Arabs. The newest dirty word in the dictionary? People kill me with crap like that. The public has been blinded by hatred and it's gonna boil over real soon.

orinjkrush

10-27-2008, 10:29 AM

if we had delta going in, there was a hugenormous bad guy(s) there, to risk all the PR.

baja

10-27-2008, 10:30 AM

you mean Arabs. The newest dirty word in the dictionary? People kill me with crap like that. The public has been blinded by hatred and it's gonna boil over real soon.

I have had the very great opportunity to be introduced to and have very informed conversations with educated people of Europe and now the Middle East. They have a very good grasp of American Politics and of course their own area too. They all want Obama to win. BTW.

And for those of you wondering I always make the destination between the people and the current federal government but it has been unnecessary because they already know this.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 10:36 AM

I have had the very great opportunity to be introduced to and have very informed conversations with educated people of Europe and now the Middle East. They have a very good grasp of American Politics and of course their own area too. They all want Obama to win. BTW.

I'm sure they do. America has been built on racism, in-equality, hatred, and Propaganda. I grew up with racial tension between blacks and whites, so I don't hardly notice it, but when I saw that same irrational fear and ignorance thrown at the immigrants from the middle east and west Asia, I saw it from the outside and how horrible it is. I see kids at the high school where i coach football being called Saddam and terrorist and they are from India! So much ignorance brought from fear. It's horrible. I never realized how scared people really are. I think that alone is a plight against the current administration. How they have fear mongered us right back to the 50's.

gyldenlove

10-27-2008, 10:37 AM

Haven't heard a word about it. Of course I haven't checked any news sites yet. I'm dubious though. Just like any bomb over here is a terrorist attack any plane over there must be American.

Well that one is a given, who else can afford to fuel their planes over there? It is like if you see a fat guy in Cancun, it is an American without question, who else in that area can afford to subsist largely on things that come in super size.

Hotrod

10-27-2008, 10:37 AM

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 10:38 AM

Well that one is a given, who else can afford to fuel their planes over there? It is like if you see a fat guy in Cancun, it is an American without question, who else in that area can afford to subsist largely on things that come in super size.

Good point.... Although, I agree, i will say we have some allies with planes in the region, just to be a devils advocate booger.;)

baja

10-27-2008, 10:39 AM

you mean Arabs. The newest dirty word in the dictionary? People kill me with crap like that. The public has been blinded by hatred and it's gonna boil over real soon.

FYI I have not seen any Arabs yet I'm in Jordan you know where the Jordanians live. BTW there are over 1 million Iraqi refuges living in this small and very poor country but nobody I have met is complaining. Their gas cost has doubled since US occupied Iraq and I have not heard any complaints about this either. The people here have a hard life and they take a realist attitude about things accepting the way it is.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 10:39 AM

Um your joking right?

War, disagree, bomb, but when you kill the innocent, you FUQED UP!

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 10:41 AM

FYI I have not seen any Arabs yet I'm in Jordan you know where the Jordanians live. BTW there are over 1 million Iraqi refuges living in this small and very poor country but nobody I have met is complaining. Their gas cost has doubled since US occupied Iraq and I have not heard any complaints about this either. The people here have a hard life and they take a realist attitude about things accepting the way it is.

As noble as that is, I'd love to see someone question authority, you know?

baja

10-27-2008, 10:44 AM

As noble as that is, I'd love to see someone question authority, you know?

They are being realistic about their world. They are very poor here in Jordan. Sooner or later everyone I talk with says, "Jordan is a poor country" and than they shrug.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 10:45 AM

They are being realistic about their world. They are very poor here in Jordan. Sooner or later everyone I talk with says, "Jordan is a poor country" and than they shrug.

Yeah, i get it....

Rohirrim

10-27-2008, 11:15 AM

Ya lets just go where we want and kill whom we wish after we got the biggest pile of nukes, right

When I remember people falling from the windows of the WTC, I also remember those who cheered and those who helped fund that mass murder. And Syria is right there at the top of the list.

baja

10-27-2008, 11:16 AM

When I remember people falling from the windows of the WTC, I also remember those who cheered and those who helped fund that mass murder. And Syria is right there at the top of the list.

So let's nuke all of Syira that should teach them, right.

This seems unlike you Ro.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 11:17 AM

When I remember people falling from the windows of the WTC, I also remember those who cheered and those who helped fund that mass murder. And Syria is right there at the top of the list.

http://www.ciadvertising.org/student_account/fall_00/adv382j/christiana/theory/photos/bud.gif

We should declare war or something first though, it's that pesky Geneva convention thing.

Rohirrim

10-27-2008, 11:21 AM

So let's nuke all of Syira that should teach them, right.

This seems unlike you Ro.

I don't remember saying "Nuke all of Syria." But before you start thinking the Syrians are the good guys, I suggest you leave Jordan and take a trip to Lebanon. Ask them what they think about the Syrians. Maybe you'll get a different picture.

baja

10-27-2008, 11:21 AM

I guess one way to decrease dissent is kill the fuucking dissenters

Rohirrim

10-27-2008, 11:22 AM

http://www.ciadvertising.org/student_account/fall_00/adv382j/christiana/theory/photos/bud.gif

We should declare war or something first though, it's that pesky Geneva convention thing.

I think I'll withhold judgment until I hear who these people were.

baja

10-27-2008, 11:24 AM

I don't remember saying "Nuke all of Syria." But before you start thinking the Syrians are the good guys, I suggest you leave Jordan and take a trip to Lebanon. Ask them what they think about the Syrians. Maybe you'll get a different picture.

I'm not talking good or bad here I'm saying we (USA) should stay the fuuck out of other countries, rebuild our global creditably and deal with rogue nations through a coalition of nations.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 11:26 AM

I think I'll withhold judgment until I hear who these people were.

See, and my personal feeling is, I don't care if it's Bin laden, we can't just go inside another country we AREN'T at war with and bomb ANYTHING without telling them first. If it was France (whom also thinks we deserved to get bombed) would you still feel the same?

Rohirrim

10-27-2008, 11:28 AM

I'm not talking good or bad here I'm saying we (USA) should stay the fuuck out of other countries, rebuild our global creditably and deal with rogue nations through a coalition of nations.

I can't be a hypcrite about it. If we knew where Bin Laden and Zawahiri were, I honestly couldn't give a **** what country they're in. I would want us to take them out. If these Syrians were members of Al Queda, or involved in killing American troops, **** them. Syria doesn't deserve anybody's respect. Like I said, go to Lebanon and ask them about respecting the sovereignty of countries.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 11:33 AM

I can't be a hypcrite about it. If we knew where Bin Laden and Zawahiri were, I honestly couldn't give a **** what country they're in. I would want us to take them out. If these Syrians were members of Al Queda, or involved in killing American troops, **** them. Syria doesn't deserve anybody's respect. Like I said, go to Lebanon and ask them about respecting the sovereignty of countries.

Its kinda like the red tape police have to go through to catch criminals. The criminals have no rules to obey, but the police do. That's the situation we are in here. Besides, as bad as Syria is, we should at least find out if they even know they are harboring terrorists and if they will co-operate with us. If not, then we go after them.

BTW-What ever happened to co-ops? Do all our attacks have to be so public? Just send a small regiment in there and take em out while they sleep!

Rank&File

10-27-2008, 11:33 AM

So let me get this straight baja -

People are criticizing you for talking to citizens of another country, and then tell you not to take their word for it (the people you meet).

nobody was criticizing him for talking to people...but him talking to a ****ing cab driver doesnt make an expert...go to nyc, you'll get the same thing

baja

10-27-2008, 11:34 AM

That's a very slippery slope my friend.

The global repercussions of these acts are not worth killing bin Laden. People here are watching the US presidential election with more interest than most Americans. They want the America they respect back not the one the fear and they are right. The US will not stand alone it will fall without friends.

alkemical

10-27-2008, 11:35 AM

nobody was criticizing him for talking to people...but him talking to a ****ing cab driver doesnt make an expert...go to nyc, you'll get the same thing

Yeah man, i keep forgetting that talking to people and getting their viewpoints isn't valid. Cool, i'll remember that if it doesn't have a commercial in it, it's not valid.

Rohirrim

10-27-2008, 11:36 AM

See, and my personal feeling is, I don't care if it's Bin laden, we can't just go inside another country we AREN'T at war with and bomb ANYTHING without telling them first. If it was France (whom also thinks we deserved to get bombed) would you still feel the same?

Ludicrous analogy. France would not harbor Bin Laden. You seem to forget, there have been Al Queda attacks in France. Syria would. Pakistan would, and is. It's a little game these countries play. Hell, Syria just last year blew up one of the most beloved figures in Lebanese politics because he supported driving the Syrians out of Lebanon. Everybody on Earth knows Syria was behind it. Everybody knows Syria has been carrying out terrorist attacks for years. They've been providing support to Al Queda in Iraq. Everybody knows Syria is one of Al Queda's biggest supporters. So you think we should just play along because their politicians throw up their hands and cry innocent?

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 11:36 AM

Yeah man, i keep forgetting that talking to people and getting their viewpoints isn't valid. Cool, i'll remember that if it doesn't have a commercial in it, it's not valid.

yeah, lets turn on fox news and see what they think....!Booya!

baja

10-27-2008, 11:38 AM

nobody was criticizing him for talking to people...but him talking to a ****ing cab driver doesnt make an expert...go to nyc, you'll get the same thing

You have missed some of the conversation I have been talking with more than a cab driver. For instance the hotel owner where I stayed last night that a friend from Israel introduced me to and I drank Turkish coffee and talked for good long while last night.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 11:39 AM

Ludicrous analogy. France would not harbor Bin Laden. You seem to forget, there have been Al Queda attacks in France. Syria would. Pakistan would, and is. It's a little game these countries play. Hell, Syria just last year blew up one of the most beloved figures in Lebanese politics because he supported driving the Syrians out of Lebanon. Everybody on Earth knows Syria was behind it. Everybody knows Syria has been carrying out terrorist attacks for years. They've been providing support to Al Queda in Iraq. Everybody knows Syria is one of Al Queda's biggest supporters. So you think we should just play along because their politicians throw up their hands and cry innocent?

No one is arguing that point. ( I hope) what I'm saying is, we have to play by the rules. As sucky as that is. It's true. We have to at least declare war or let the U.N. know at least before we bomb a country that we are not at war with.

Rank&File

10-27-2008, 11:39 AM

Yeah man, i keep forgetting that talking to people and getting their viewpoints isn't valid. Cool, i'll remember that if it doesn't have a commercial in it, it's not valid.

whatever dude. he jumped on a guy for saying we needed more facts...then he talkes about what a cabby has to say. im sure the cabby knows all about it

Rank&File

10-27-2008, 11:42 AM

You have missed some of the conversation I have been talking with more than a cab driver. For instance the hotel owner where I stayed last night that a friend from Israel introduced me to and I drank Turkish coffee and talked for good long while last night.

thats fine, you just bashed garcia or somebaody for not jumping right in with their judgement. im sure youve met wonderful people over there, you whacked a guy for no reason that's all

baja

10-27-2008, 11:44 AM

Ludicrous analogy. France would not harbor Bin Laden. You seem to forget, there have been Al Queda attacks in France. Syria would. Pakistan would, and is. It's a little game these countries play. Hell, Syria just last year blew up one of the most beloved figures in Lebanese politics because he supported driving the Syrians out of Lebanon. Everybody on Earth knows Syria was behind it. Everybody knows Syria has been carrying out terrorist attacks for years. They've been providing support to Al Queda in Iraq. Everybody knows Syria is one of Al Queda's biggest supporters. So you think we should just play along because their politicians throw up their hands and cry innocent?

These acts have a serious global impact rather you like it or not and there is a right way to do this and a wrong way, attacking a target on foreign soil is the wrong way, period!

Sorry if that hurts your personal "feel good".

Rank&File

10-27-2008, 11:44 AM

yeah, lets turn on fox news and see what they think....!Booya!

no i get my news from pompous pricks on internet message boards.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 11:45 AM

:juggle: :juggle:

these juggling guys are distracting me. i can't concentrate! I think I have ADD.

Rohirrim

10-27-2008, 11:46 AM

No one is arguing that point. ( I hope) what I'm saying is, we have to play by the rules. As sucky as that is. It's true. We have to at least declare war or let the U.N. know at least before we bomb a country that we are not at war with.

I think one of the rules is, if you harbor terrorists and support terrorism, you will be treated as a terrorist state. That means you don't deserve diplomacy and declarations of intent.

baja

10-27-2008, 11:46 AM

thats fine, you just bashed garcia or somebaody for not jumping right in with their judgement. im sure youve met wonderful people over there, you whacked a guy for no reason that's all

garcia has a long history here as do I. You might give consideration to the fact you are quite new here and may not be up to speed with this long time group.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 11:46 AM

no i get my news from pompous pricks on internet message boards.

SO DO I!!!!^5

Rank&File

10-27-2008, 11:46 AM

:juggle: :juggle:

these juggling guys are distracting me. i can't concentrate! I think I have ADD.

jedi mind trick

Rank&File

10-27-2008, 11:49 AM

garcia has a long history here as do I. You might give consideration to the fact you are quite new here and may not be up to speed with this long time group.

Perhaps you're right.

Rohirrim

10-27-2008, 11:50 AM

These acts have a serious global impact rather you like it or not and there is a right way to do this and a wrong way, attacking a target on foreign soil is the wrong way, period!

Sorry if that hurts your personal "feel good".

I don't know what the "right" way would be. Ask Syria to turn them over? Then we are telling a terrorist state the names and locations of our targets and they promptly move them somewhere else. I'll wait for the story to come out. Given the pinpoint nature of this attack, I'm guessing the intel was very good and very specific.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 11:52 AM

I think one of the rules is, if you harbor terrorists and support terrorism, you will be treated as a terrorist state. That means you don't deserve diplomacy and declarations of intent.

Do we know they are harboring them though? We might have wanted to ask them first.

BTW-I don't agree with our "terrorist state" policy. We don't agree with them, fine. I don't believe we should lower ourselves and our standards to battle their low standards. We are not justified in everything we do just because we are the USA. We need to alert our allies first, even if we don't alert the attackee. Our friends deserve an explanation at the very least. We need to get the Ok of the rest of the civilized world that we share this earth with. So OK, fuq Syria if you want to, but what we do will have repercussions on Europe just as our last two wars have. How about a heads up to them first.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 11:55 AM

I don't know what the "right" way would be. Ask Syria to turn them over? Then we are telling a terrorist state the names and locations of our targets and they promptly move them somewhere else. I'll wait for the story to come out. Given the pinpoint nature of this attack, I'm guessing the intel was very good and very specific.

What do you do if Syria moves them, you blow their government off the map. Then you've gone about it the right way. you've given them a chance. Afghanistan should have been a warning for those who harbor terrorist. It would have been a better warning had we stayed there and not gone into Iraq, but i still think they should have gotten the message. I still say you have to get approval from our world allies.

baja

10-27-2008, 11:58 AM

I don't know what the "right" way would be. Ask Syria to turn them over? Then we are telling a terrorist state the names and locations of our targets and they promptly move them somewhere else. I'll wait for the story to come out. Given the pinpoint nature of this attack, I'm guessing the intel was very good and very specific.

There may be a strong reason to have done this my point is we (US) have so damaged our creditability with most of the rest of the world that to attack a target inside yet another country even a country with the history of Syria carries a very big price. We are feared and seen as the problem my many rational people and this is something we can not afford anymore of. Thanks to George.

Paladin

10-27-2008, 12:41 PM

no i get my news from pompous pricks on internet message boards.

LOL!!!!

Paladin

10-27-2008, 12:43 PM

garcia has a long history here as do I. You might give consideration to the fact you are quite new here and may not be up to speed with this long time group.

Yeah. He's been an arsehole a loooong time. You gotta respect that.........

:welcome:

Hotrod

10-27-2008, 12:45 PM

Your either with us or against us. Syria can go **** itself for all I care.

Paladin

10-27-2008, 12:48 PM

H3ll of a lot of money to knock out a recreational sports bar/pick up point/viagra dispensing drug store is all I can say about that.....

DomCasual

10-27-2008, 01:21 PM

Do we know they are harboring them though? We might have wanted to ask them first.

BTW-I don't agree with our "terrorist state" policy. We don't agree with them, fine. I don't believe we should lower ourselves and our standards to battle their low standards. We are not justified in everything we do just because we are the USA. We need to alert our allies first, even if we don't alert the attackee. Our friends deserve an explanation at the very least. We need to get the Ok of the rest of the civilized world that we share this earth with. So OK, fuq Syria if you want to, but what we do will have repercussions on Europe just as our last two wars have. How about a heads up to them first.

Seriously?

Hey, Syria - you guys harboring terrorists?

Nope. No terrorists here.

Thanks! Have a great day!

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 01:29 PM

Seriously?

Hey, Syria - you guys harboring terrorists?

Nope. No terrorists here.

Here's our proof still deny it?

yes

war on then!

Fixed it for you

I'm saying try diplomacy first then shoot. not shoot first George bush.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 01:31 PM

let me explain it to you this way, Lets say Russia blew up a building in Syria. Syria tracked the guy who did it to the USA. If they sent a plane in to Bomb one of our buildings without telling us, how do you think we might react?

Hotrod

10-27-2008, 01:37 PM

Needa Pass Rush

10-27-2008, 01:39 PM

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 20px" vAlign=top width="99%">US official: Raid on Syria killed leader of cell</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right rowSpan=3>http://img.breitbart.com/images/ap.gif (http://www.breitbart.com/partner.php?source=ap)</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="99%">Oct 27 03:18 PM US/Eastern
By ZEINA KARAM and HUSSEIN MALLA
Associated Press Writers</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gif</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 14px">SUKKARIYEH, Syria (AP) - Families in this Syrian village on Monday buried loved ones they said died in a U.S. helicopter attack. A U.S. counterterrorism official said American forces killed the head of a Syrian network that funneled fighters, weapons and cash into Iraq.
The raid Sunday targeted the home of Abu Ghadiyah, the nickname for the leader of a key cell of foreign fighters in Iraq, according to the U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive intelligence.
Also Monday, a villager said U.S. forces grabbed two men and took them away by helicopter during the cross-border raid.
During the funerals, residents shouted anti-American slogans and carried banners reading: "Down with Bush and the American enemy." Syria's foreign minister condemned the raid as "cowboy politics."
The Syrian government said four U.S. military helicopters attacked a civilian building under construction shortly before sundown, killing eight people in Sukkariyeh—a village about five miles inside the Syrian border.
A U.S. military official in Washington confirmed Sunday that special forces had conducted a raid in Syria that targeted the network of al-Qaida-linked foreign fighters moving through Syria into Iraq.
"We are taking matters into our own hands," the official told The Associated Press, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the political sensitivity of cross-border raids.
The attack is another sign that the United States is aggressively launching military raids across the borders of Afghanistan and Iraq to destroy insurgent sanctuaries. In Pakistan, U.S. missile strikes have killed at least two senior al-Qaida operatives this year and ramped up the threat to groups suspected of plotting attacks on Western troops in Afghanistan and terror strikes in the West.
A Sukkariyeh resident, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he feared for his life, said he saw at least two men taken into custody by American forces and whisked away by helicopter. Another villager displayed amateur video footage he took with his mobile phone that shows four helicopters flying toward them as villagers point to the skies in alarm.
An Associated Press journalist saw the grainy video Monday.
At the targeted building, about a five-minute drive off the main road, the floor was bloodstained and white tennis shoes were surrounded by blood and pieces of human flesh. A tent pitched near the site had bags of bread, pots and pans and wool blankets.
In Washington, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino refused to confirm, or even discuss, Sunday's attack.
Iran condemned the attack as did Russia, which has had close ties with Syria since Soviet times.
The raid also put the Baghdad government in an awkward position while negotiating a security pact with the United States. Iraqi officials said they hoped the raid would not harm their relations with Syria, but the government spokesman in Baghdad noted that it happened in an area known as a terrorist haven.
"We are trying to contain the fallout from the incident," Iraqi Foreign Ministry undersecretary Labid Abbawi said. "It is regrettable and we are sorry it happened."
Government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh, however, said the area where the raid occurred "is a theater of military operations where anti-Iraq terrorist activity takes place."
Syria's foreign minister, Walid al-Moallem, described the raid as "cowboy politics." He spoke to reporters in London and warned that if there was a repeat attack on Syria, "we would defend our territories."
The Syrian government statement said eight people were killed, including a man and his four children and a woman. However, local officials said seven men were killed and two other people were wounded, including a woman among the injured.
An Associated Press journalist at the funerals in the village cemetery saw the bodies of seven men—none of them children. The discrepancy could not immediately be explained.
Sunday's attack came at a time when Syria appears to be making some amends with the United States. Though Syria has long been viewed by the U.S. as a destabilizing country in the Middle East, Damascus has been trying in recent months to change its image and end years of global seclusion.
The raid came just days after the commander of U.S. forces in western Iraq said American troops were redoubling efforts to secure the Syrian border, which he called an "uncontrolled" gateway for fighters entering Iraq.
In Sukkariyeh, villager Jumaa Ahmad al-Hamad told the AP he was walking Sunday when he saw four helicopters, two of which landed.
"Shooting then started ringing for more than 10 minutes," al-Hamad said Monday. After the helicopters stopped firing and left the area, he and other villagers went to the site and discovered the bodies of his uncle, Dawoud al-Hamad, and four of his uncle's sons, who he said were killed.
At the one-story family house of the deceased Dawoud al-Hamad and his sons, about 30 women dressed in black wept in a courtyard. They all dismissed allegations that the dead men had links to al-Qaida.
"They were innocent laborers who worked from dusk to dawn," said Abdullah's wife, Rima, while sitting on the floor. She said work at the construction site started last week.
Asked about U.S. reports that an al-Qaida-linked group used the site, Siham, the widow of one of Dawoud al-Hamad's sons, Ibrahim, said: "I don't know about any of that."
"All I know is that they went to work and never came back," said the mother of seven children, the youngest of whom is an 8-month-old girl.
Some Iraqi officials warned that the U.S. military raid into Syria could be used by opponents of the security pact under negotiation with the United States.
"Now neighboring countries have a good reason to be concerned about the continued U.S. presence in Iraq," Kurdish politician Mahmoud Othman told the AP.
Abbawi said he did not believe the Syrian raid would affect the security negotiations but acknowledged that "some will use the incident for the argument against the agreement."
Sunday's attack comes as the flow of foreign fighters into Iraq has been declining. A senior U.S. military intelligence official told the AP in July that it had been cut to an estimated 20 a month. That's a 50 percent decline from six months ago, and just a fifth of the estimated 100 foreign fighters who were infiltrating Iraq a year ago, according to the official.
The area targeted Sunday is near the Iraqi border city of Qaim, which had been a major crossing point for fighters, weapons and money coming into Iraq to fuel the Sunni insurgency. Ninety percent of the foreign fighters enter through Syria, according to U.S. intelligence. Foreigners are some of the most deadly fighters in Iraq, trained in bomb-making and with small-arms expertise and more likely to be willing suicide bombers than Iraqis. ____
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Needa Pass Rush

10-27-2008, 01:44 PM

Perhaps you're right.

You don't know Baja at all. He is an American apologizing lefty. :~ohyah!:

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 02:13 PM

Um we would shoot the plane down because we are the badest mother ****ers on the block

For how long? Keep stretching yourself thin and alienating your allies and watch you become the newest occupied country on the block.

Paladin

10-27-2008, 02:36 PM

"US official: Raid on Syria killed leader of cell"

Does that count?

Hotrod

10-27-2008, 02:37 PM

For how long? Keep stretching yourself thin and alienating your allies and watch you become the newest occupied country on the block.

Um yea after the first Syrian fighter (LMAO) was shot down the remaining Syrian airforce would be destoyed. We are not stretched so thin we cant take on the mighty Syrian airforce.

baja

10-27-2008, 02:45 PM

You don't know Baja at all. He is an American apologizing lefty. :~ohyah!:

You are an ignorant fool who thinks his country is all about truth, justice and the American way. Get a clue "Needa clue"

baja

10-27-2008, 02:48 PM

"US official: Raid on Syria killed leader of cell"

Does that count?

There will be untold more and going it alone will fail. America can not take on the world and win and with each rogue act we further alienate ourselves from any reasonable coalition.

baja

10-27-2008, 02:52 PM

Um yea after the first Syrian fighter (LMAO) was shot down the remaining Syrian airforce would be destoyed. We are not stretched so thin we cant take on the mighty Syrian airforce.

Those of you with this arrogant way of seeing things will be taught a painful lesson some day. Hopefully Obama will seek a coalition of allies to move against terrorism.

TailgateNut

10-27-2008, 02:54 PM

"US official: Raid on Syria killed leader of cell"

Does that count?

As much as "we've killed the #2 Al Queda guy" (about a hundred times).:rofl:

Whack A Mole. (except this version of the game is a quarter million a whack).

TailgateNut

10-27-2008, 02:55 PM

Those of you with this arrogant way of seeing things will be taught a painful lesson some day. Hopefully Obama will seek a coalition of allies to move against terrorism.

No shiat. This is exactly what got us into this ****ing mess. Stupid ass, better than thou, arrogant American mentality.

gunns

10-27-2008, 03:03 PM

Hotrod

10-27-2008, 03:14 PM

Those of you with this arrogant way of seeing things will be taught a painful lesson some day. Hopefully Obama will seek a coalition of allies to move against terrorism.

You have convinced me. I am off to buy beans, seeds and gold ::)

Unlike you I dont see America as the great satin :ouwknow:

Hotrod

10-27-2008, 03:16 PM

No shiat. This is exactly what got us into this ****ing mess. Stupid ass, better than thou, arrogant American mentality.

We are better then them what is wrong with that?

elsid13

10-27-2008, 03:18 PM

Since no has the full story, can we at least give the our folks the benefit of the doubt that they did the right thing. If the decision was made to put American Boots on the ground in Syria they must have had a very significate belief that there was very high value target that need to be captured or eliminated.

Plus something everyone should remember both Obama and McCain would have been briefed on this action before it happened.

elsid13

10-27-2008, 03:19 PM

You have convinced me. I am off to buy beans, seeds and gold ::)

Unlike you I dont see America as the great satin :ouwknow:

I believe America was the great cotton myself

TailgateNut

10-27-2008, 03:19 PM

We are better then them what is wrong with that?

No use wasting time here!

TailgateNut

10-27-2008, 03:20 PM

I believe America was the great cotton myself

LOL

Hotrod

10-27-2008, 03:21 PM

I believe America was the great cotton myself

LOL whoops

Hotrod

10-27-2008, 03:22 PM

No use wasting time here!

You are correct. 90% of the posters in this forum want to hug trees and sing peace songs with the same people who want to cut your ****ing head off because of your religious beliefs. Unless of course your muslim.

gunns

10-27-2008, 03:31 PM

As much as "we've killed the #2 Al Queda guy" (about a hundred times).:rofl:

Whack A Mole. (except this version of the game is a quarter million a whack).

Isn't that the truth.

Garcia Bronco

10-27-2008, 03:37 PM

No you (and many other Americans) need to get your head out of your ass. We are not the good guys you like to believe and one way or another you will learn this.

Get a grip dude.

Rohirrim

10-27-2008, 03:51 PM

This is the picture I keep at the front of my mind. Until they're dead. No excuses.
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/08/23/trade_narrowweb__300x478,0.jpg

cutthemdown

10-27-2008, 03:54 PM

There will be untold more and going it alone will fail. America can not take on the world and win and with each rogue act we further alienate ourselves from any reasonable coalition.

The Syrians are a brutal regime. The Assads are among the most brutal. They once bulldozed an entire city and buried everyone alive. No way we send special forces in to just kill a regular family.

If this happened then Syria had it coming to them.

cutthemdown

10-27-2008, 04:02 PM

TailgateNut

10-27-2008, 04:07 PM

This sends a message to all countries that if you harbor Al Queda we will find a way to eventually kill you. Syria is lucky we don't bomb their govt for allowing terrorists to use there soil.

Sounds like a good job by our boys in the special forces they deserve a big Hell Yeah!!!!!

Here's to hoping Obama keeps up the fight, and you know what? I think he will.

Good ****ing grief. Do you think that we are currently in an economic position to continue fighting wars across the globe while Osama laughs at the puppets he has created. He has singlehandedly ****ed our economy. We have been chasing our tails in one ****hole after another with no positive outcomes.

Our soldiers continue to die, our defense budget is in the crapper, and the whole world is losing what little respect the have left for us.

****ing morons!

cutthemdown

10-27-2008, 04:43 PM

Good ****ing grief. Do you think that we are currently in an economic position to continue fighting wars across the globe while Osama laughs at the puppets he has created. He has singlehandedly ****ed our economy. We have been chasing our tails in one ****hole after another with no positive outcomes.

Our soldiers continue to die, our defense budget is in the crapper, and the whole world is losing what little respect the have left for us.

****ing morons!

Obama can spend less and still keep up the fight. Iraq was an exception to the rule. Most times we won't be invading the whole country.

You can use missiles, unmanned drones, special forces incursions and not spend the kind of money we have been. We can afford to bomb the hell out of people here and there when they support terrorism.

Feeling sorry for Assad and Syria is a joke. They run a ruthless dictatorship and deserve to be bombed when they step out of line.

Bronco Bob

10-27-2008, 05:04 PM

Does anyone actually believe we targeted a family for no reason what so ever.

Wouldn't be the first time this has happened.

Garcia Bronco

10-27-2008, 05:08 PM

Wouldn't be the first time this has happened.

When was that?

Bronco Bob

10-27-2008, 06:50 PM

Obama can spend less and still keep up the fight. Iraq was an exception to the rule. Most times we won't be invading the whole country.

You can use missiles, unmanned drones, special forces incursions and not spend the kind of money we have been. We can afford to bomb the hell out of people here and there when they support terrorism.

Feeling sorry for Assad and Syria is a joke. They run a ruthless dictatorship and deserve to be bombed when they step out of line.

Ironically Syria was an ally of ours in the first Gulf War. And the same folks
were in charge of the government at the time. Back then Libya was the
enemy, and now they are our friends. And the same folks are still in charge
of Libya. Odd how stuff like that works.

That One Guy

10-27-2008, 07:03 PM

Once again... I really wish I could give some details on this stuff. Make no mistake though, Syria knows what's going on over there. They just don't really care. The situation is much like the Taliban situation was pre-war in that Syria doesn't really care to do the US any favors unless we somehow make it in their best interest. The fighters aren't hurting them, why put out the effort. A government that doesn't really care and a border patrol that is more than happy to take bribes makes a very conducive situation.

Something jumped out at me in one of those articles where they referenced the operation and "sensitive intelligence". Anyone in intelligence knows that term and it's telling unless it's merely a coincidence that he used that term. I doubt it was.

And just a comment... I don't know if it's the fact that I just usually don't agree with Baja on anything but in reading almost every post in this thread it seems like he's on some spiritual journey and more enlightened than everyone else. "Oh but I talk to foreigners..." These countries you're so enlightened by don't become the armpit of the civilized world by their wisdom and prosperity. Those people wouldn't know an honest government if it slapped em. Forgive me if I don't take humanity nor political advice from any of them. Forgive me also if I don't take any of the opinions you supposedly conclude from your talks with them. It's not hard to hear what you want to hear. "We talked and drank turkish coffee for hours..." Move to Syria if they're so awesome and the US sucks so much.

Bronco Bob

10-27-2008, 07:44 PM

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 07:56 PM

We are better then them what is wrong with that?

Brush up on your Chinese folks if this is the way people think around here. :-[ :nono:

That One Guy

10-27-2008, 09:42 PM

At least he's out there talking to people instead of basing his opinions
on what he has been spoon fed by the corporate media.

Sure, but he's gotta realize that they all have their biases and personal perspectives as well. He talks of the "US they respect not the one they fear"... That's like some made for TV drama lines. It's just the way he's conveying his conversations I guess. You'd think he was high on acid and revealing the secrets of the universe with the wonder and awe that he seems to be posting with. It's just a bunch of Middle Eastern folks' opinions. They're no better or worse than anyone elses and they can't speak for anyone but themselves.

That One Guy

10-27-2008, 09:44 PM

Brush up on your Chinese folks if this is the way people think around here. :-[ :nono:

You guys want to talk of holding ourselves to a higher standard. If we hold ourselves to a higher standard, does that not make us better than them? The line that goes along with that mentality is always, "we're better than that". Well, what's "That"? That is them. So, in the end, we're acknowledging that by holding ourselves to a higher standard, we're saying we're better than them.

If you can't uphold laws of decency and help your neighbor, don't get upset when you have ****ty neighbors. You can blame noone but yourself.

cutthemdown

10-27-2008, 09:51 PM

Ironically Syria was an ally of ours in the first Gulf War. And the same folks
were in charge of the government at the time. Back then Libya was the
enemy, and now they are our friends. And the same folks are still in charge
of Libya. Odd how stuff like that works.

no it's just all the mideast countries knew Iraq couldn't be allowed to take kuwait. It had nothing to do with USA and Syria being friends. We have always had a problem with Syria and there support of terrorism.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN

10-27-2008, 10:12 PM

You are correct. 90% of the posters in this forum want to hug trees and sing peace songs with the same people who want to cut your ****ing head off because of your religious beliefs. Unless of course your muslim.

That's retarded.

I would say that ~90% of the posters here want to end terrorism - we just disagree on the methods.

One thing is for sure: Bush's way doesn't work.

Thanks to Bush, we've spent a ~trillion dollars in Iraq to create a new haven for al Qaeda where none existed, we still haven't captured or killed Bin Laden, and we have allowed the Taliban and al Qaeda to regroup in Afghanistan and the region along the border with Pakistan.

SJ Bronco

10-27-2008, 10:28 PM

That's retarded.

I would say that ~90% of the posters here want to end terrorism - we just disagree on the methods.

One thing is for sure: Bush's way doesn't work.

Thanks to Bush, we've spent a ~trillion dollars in Iraq to create a new haven for al Qaeda where none existed, we still haven't captured or killed Bin Laden, and we have allowed the Taliban and al Qaeda to regroup in Afghanistan and the region along the border with Pakistan.

Only 90%? I'd say all but maybe 1. Who that is i don't know, but I didn't want to say 100%

baja

10-27-2008, 11:27 PM

You have convinced me. I am off to buy beans, seeds and gold ::)

Unlike you I dont see America as the great <b>satin </b>:ouwknow:

You have allowed to let the wool be pulled over your eyes. The US has been meddling in other countries affairs for a good long while. How do you think you got gas for a buck and a half all those years while everyone was paying 5 to 6, it wasn't all taxes. We US banks loaned money that could for cheap oil deals at the experience of the people of those nations

baja

10-27-2008, 11:35 PM

You are correct. 90% of the posters in this forum want to hug trees and sing peace songs with the same people who want to cut your ****ing head off because of your religious beliefs. Unless of course your muslim.

Amazing! I have been surrounded by 100% Muslims for 3 days now and no one has even looked at my neck. Most of the people here in the Middle East are very decent folks who like to engage foreigners. I have been treated very well here, actually I have been extended greater hospitality here than I would ever receive in the USA. Your government has you brain washed and blinded by fear. BTW that is one of the ways that Bush is like Hitler, he uses fear to control.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN

10-27-2008, 11:44 PM

You have allowed to let the wool be pulled over your eyes. The US has been meddling in other countries affairs for a good long while. How do you think you got gas for a buck and a half all those years while everyone was paying 5 to 6, it wasn't all taxes. We US banks loaned money that could for cheap oil deals at the experience of the people of those nations

According to right-wing extremists like the guy you're debating here, any American who thinks we should examine our policy in the region and acknowledge our mistakes where we find them is a rotten patriot or a traitor.

No wonder America is rejecting the dangerous crackpots who populate his party.

kappys

10-28-2008, 05:45 AM

Um we would shoot the plane down because we are the badest mother ****ers on the block

You've completely missed the point. It is not a question of practicality but one of morality. Practically of course there is no way that Syria could attack the US.

The question is simple. Do we apply to ourselves the same standards that we apply to others? In this issue of terrorism the answer is clearly no.

If we are going to legitamately accept this standard for intervention then Nicaragua clearly has the right to bomb the Pentagon, should have killed Reagan, still would have the right to take out #2 guys (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz), etc.

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 07:37 AM

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 07:38 AM

You've completely missed the point. It is not a question of practicality but one of morality. Practically of course there is no way that Syria could attack the US.

The question is simple. Do we apply to ourselves the same standards that we apply to others? In this issue of terrorism the answer is clearly no.

If we are going to legitamately accept this standard for intervention then Nicaragua clearly has the right to bomb the Pentagon, should have killed Reagan, still would have the right to take out #2 guys (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz), etc.

So it is a question of morality but the weak knee nancy girls in here want to turn a blind eye on the evils of the world? Let us just stick our head in the sand and pretend all it right in the world. Blah

TailgateNut

10-28-2008, 07:57 AM

So it is a question of morality but the weak knee nancy girls in here want to turn a blind eye on the evils of the world? Let us just stick our head in the sand and pretend all it right in the world. Blah

Yet, in your feeble mind it is acceptable to become what just like those we dispise.

A ****ing double standard. Why? Just because we think we are better, when in reality we are getting worse with each dispicable act.

Honor went out the ****ing window when Bush moved into the WH.

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 08:00 AM

Yet, in your feeble mind it is acceptable to become what just like those we dispise.

A ****ing double standard. Why? Just because we think we are better, when in reality we are getting worse with each dispicable act.

Honor went out the ****ing window when Bush moved into the WH.

feeble mind what is up with the weak personal attack? I thought you had honor? Do you live your life by double standards off the internets also?

Rohirrim

10-28-2008, 08:02 AM

You've completely missed the point. It is not a question of practicality but one of morality. Practically of course there is no way that Syria could attack the US.

The question is simple. Do we apply to ourselves the same standards that we apply to others? In this issue of terrorism the answer is clearly no.

If we are going to legitamately accept this standard for intervention then Nicaragua clearly has the right to bomb the Pentagon, should have killed Reagan, still would have the right to take out #2 guys (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz), etc.

Syria has been attacking the U.S. for years. Through surrogates. Including Al Queda.

baja

10-28-2008, 08:29 AM

That really tells the story right there.

i didn't vote for him and his band of thieves and you are right i do consider myself more a citizen of the world than a "them vs us" type of guy but I do understand your perspective given the fact you have never been out of Texas and your high level of fear of that that you do not know. What is amazing to me is the people of the world that have your same lack of worldly experience yet are so much more open and non judgmental.

baja

10-28-2008, 08:30 AM

I just came from soaking in the Dead Sea what a treat.

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 08:30 AM

i didn't vote for him and his band of thieves and you are right i do consider myself more a citizen of the world than a "them vs us" type of guy but I do understand your perspective given the fact you have never been out of Texas and your high level of fear of that that you do not know. What is amazing to me is the people of the world that have your same lack of worldly experience yet are so much more open and non judgmental.

FWIW I've only been to Texas twice. I'm just saying

baja

10-28-2008, 08:32 AM

Syria has been attacking the U.S. for years. Through surrogates. Including Al Queda.

So what do you suggest is done about it.

Needa Pass Rush

10-28-2008, 08:59 AM

So what do you suggest is done about it.

Carry a big stick. Send one of ours to the hospital. Send one of yours to the morgue. -or- flog yourself in the dead seas and seek a soft sand pile. :welcome:

alkemical

10-28-2008, 09:03 AM

Carry a big stick. Send one of ours to the hospital. Send one of yours to the morgue. -or- flog yourself in the dead seas and seek a soft sand pile. :welcome:

The only problem with that, is it's a circular conundrum. Rinse, Repeat.... Nothing changes. Check out the information on 4th Generation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_generation_warfare) and 5th Generation warfare (http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2006/10/the_changing_fa.html).

The model of action you are suggesting will do nothing to accomplish anything, other than validate the oppositions resolve that their POV is correct.

TailgateNut

10-28-2008, 09:05 AM

The only problem with that, is it's a circular conundrum. Rinse, Repeat.... Nothing changes. Check out the information on 4th Generation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_generation_warfare) and 5th Generation warfare (http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2006/10/the_changing_fa.html).

The model of action you are suggesting will do nothing to accomplish anything, other than validate the oppositions resolve that their POV is correct.

Don't ya know that only our attacks are valid and just.

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 09:14 AM

Don't ya know that only our attacks are valid and just.

QFT they are valid and just

SJ Bronco

10-28-2008, 09:20 AM

Don't ya know that only our attacks are valid and just.

Those whom don't study their history, will be doomed to repeat it. Hail Caesar. The fall of the Trojans and the crumbling of the Romans all began with arrogance. Even Hitler lost because he over extended himself in Russia. The world hates us, and it won't be long till one of those who hate us, will see us stretched too thin in the middle east and decide it is time to destroy the US. If Bin laden hasn't already accomplished that by persuading the current administration to restrict our rights and hijack elections and creating division in our countrymen with their lies and deceit. The country is indeed at stake, but the republicans and guys who want to attack first and ask questions later, are the ones who put it in danger. Our "allies" will not come to our rescue, in fact, the may bask in the irony, and point a finger at yet another crumbled empire that imploded from it's own ranks. Study your history my friend.

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 09:23 AM

American History would indicate you dont want to **** with America.

SJ Bronco

10-28-2008, 09:30 AM

American History would indicate you dont want to **** with America.

The Vietnamese are laughing at you, so is north Korea and Bin laden.....

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 09:31 AM

The Vietnamese are laughing at you, so is north Korea and Bin laden.....

To the winners go the rice cakes I guess

TailgateNut

10-28-2008, 09:49 AM

. Study your history my friend.

I forgot the ;) smilie. I don't agree with the Hotrod line of thinking of "bomb bomb bomb everybody".

ak1971

10-28-2008, 09:55 AM

I forgot the ;) smilie. I don't agree with the Hotrod line of thinking of "bomb bomb bomb everybody".

You do know that we are inforcing God's will, right? The rightous shall overcome.

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 09:57 AM

I forgot the ;) smilie. I don't agree with the Hotrod line of thinking of "bomb bomb bomb everybody".

I dont think we should bomb everybody. We should however bomb everyone who deserves it.

Rohirrim

10-28-2008, 10:02 AM

Bomb them all and let God sort them out. ;D

SJ Bronco

10-28-2008, 10:04 AM

You do know that we are inforcing God's will, right? The rightous shall overcome.

I was wrong about you and dortch..... I thought you guys were stupid...I humbly apologize, your not stupid....

YOU'RE TEN TONS OF CRAZY!:puff:

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 10:05 AM

Ha!

ak1971

10-28-2008, 10:05 AM

I was wrong about you and dortch..... I thought you guys were stupid...I humbly apologize, your not stupid....

YOU'RE TEN TONS OF CRAZY!:puff:

its you're not your :welcome:

SJ Bronco

10-28-2008, 10:07 AM

its you're not your :welcome:

Typo....check the rest of the post....I know how to spell. I appreciate your concern though...:thumbs:

ak1971

10-28-2008, 10:09 AM

Typo....check the rest of the post....I know how to spell. I appreciate your concern though...:thumbs:

I'm always down for running some good grammar and spelling smack.

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 10:10 AM

Typo....check the rest of the post....I know how to spell. I appreciate your concern though...:thumbs:

Why do I have this sick feeling that you voted for that terrorist fella

SJ Bronco

10-28-2008, 10:11 AM

Why do I have this sick feeling that you voted for that terrorist fella

:poke:

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 10:12 AM

FWIW I voted early and wrote in GW Bush in protest.

ak1971

10-28-2008, 10:14 AM

:poke:

oh..yeah back to that Osama guy running for president

SJ Bronco

10-28-2008, 10:14 AM

FWIW I voted early and wrote in GW Bush in protest.

:spit: :thumbsup:

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 10:19 AM

oh..yeah back to that Osama guy running for president

You mean Berry? I've decided he is like the kid growing up in Iowa that sees a rapper on television and the next day he is all thug.

Berry is actually a little feminine to to be a terrorist. But a wanna be I think the jury is still out.

Rohirrim

10-28-2008, 10:27 AM

I think SJ is a socialist. ;D

SJ Bronco

10-28-2008, 10:28 AM

I think SJ is a socialist. ;D

Marxist is the buzz word this week.....:angel:

ak1971

10-28-2008, 10:29 AM

You mean Berry? I've decided he is like the kid growing up in Iowa that sees a rapper on television and the next day he is all thug.

Berry is actually a little feminine to to be a terrorist. But a wanna be I think the jury is still out.

you know Barry and Beelzebub both have 'B's in them. He is definately the devil

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 10:30 AM

Marxist is the buzz word this week.....:angel:

Oh I see. That makes more sense I read that 92.89% of marxists turn their back on God's will. :nono:

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 10:31 AM

you know Barry and Beelzebub both have 'B's in them. He is definately the devil

I saw on Fox news a report that it is possible that Barrys social security # starts with 666. Now that is news you wont hear the liberal media talking about.

SJ Bronco

10-28-2008, 10:31 AM

Oh I see. That makes more sense I read that 92.89% of marxists turn their back on God's will. :nono:

I thought "god's" son was named Jesus not Will.:kiddingme

Rohirrim

10-28-2008, 10:31 AM

you know Barry and Beelzebub both have 'B's in them. He is definately the devil

I'm surprised Palin hasn't tried that. They've tried everything else. Palin ought to give it a shot: "Obama is Satan!"

ak1971

10-28-2008, 10:33 AM

I'm surprised Palin hasn't tried that. They've tried everything else. Palin ought to give it a shot: "Obama is Satan!"

5 letters in both words..Barry = Satan. Coincidence? I think not.

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 10:33 AM

I'm surprised Palin hasn't tried that. They've tried everything else. Palin ought to give it a shot: "Obama is Satan!"

I mentioned I thought he was "satin" the other day Ha!

Rank&File

10-28-2008, 10:36 AM

Baja - "garcia has a long history here as do I. You might give consideration to the fact you are quite new here and may not be up to speed with this long time group."

Perhaps you're right.

I conceded yesterday because i didn't know the history. Today, however, I'm somewhat up to speed on many of your posts. That being said, your continual percieved state of "higher enlightenment" or whatever you called it makes me want to puke. Your posts and your overall message as a whole is pharisaical at best. You go out of your way to point out that because of some of your travels, you are in some way better, or your "worldly" views make your opinions more valid than others. I can smell your disdain for America from here, and I'm disgusted by it.

Rohirrim

10-28-2008, 10:36 AM

5 letters in both words..Barry = Satan. Coincidence? I think not.

Many Americans might feel comfortable with the Dark Lord himself in control. After all, his second in command has been VP for the last eight years.

Rohirrim

10-28-2008, 10:37 AM

I mentioned I thought he was "satin" the other day Ha!

I once put satin sheets on my bed to impress the girls. All I did was chase my pillow around all night. :rofl:

ak1971

10-28-2008, 10:37 AM

Many Americans might feel comfortable with the Dark Lord himself in control. After all, his second in command has been VP for the last eight years.

Where is Vadar? that would be cool

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 10:39 AM

I once put satin sheets on my bed to impress the girls. All I did was chase my pillow around all night. :rofl:

LOL satin sheets were invented by Satan himself

TailgateNut

10-28-2008, 10:45 AM

LOL satin sheets were invented by Satan himself

...and then came velcro to keep your ass from sliding out of bed.

TailgateNut

10-28-2008, 10:46 AM

LOL satin sheets were invented by Satan himself

...and so was Cheney. So, that's two aw****s.

SJ Bronco

10-28-2008, 10:48 AM

...and then came velcro to keep your ass from sliding out of bed.

Sleeping on velcro would suck. Velcro straps on the bedpost rules however..:wave:

TailgateNut

10-28-2008, 10:50 AM

Sleeping on velcro would suck. Velcro straps on the bedpost rules however..:wave:

^5

Of course youl'd put the "scratchy side of the velcro facing out.

Paladin

10-28-2008, 11:14 AM

Baja - "garcia has a long history here as do I. You might give consideration to the fact you are quite new here and may not be up to speed with this long time group."

I conceded yesterday because i didn't know the history. Today, however, I'm somewhat up to speed on many of your posts. That being said, your continual percieved state of "higher enlightenment" or whatever you called it makes me want to puke. Your posts and your overall message as a whole is pharisaical at best. You go out of your way to point out that because of some of your travels, you are in some way better, or your "worldly" views make your opinions more valid than others. I can smell your disdain for America from here, and I'm disgusted by it.

Attt boy. Glad you became enlightened...

baja

10-28-2008, 01:06 PM

Rank&File

10-28-2008, 01:13 PM

You're not allowed to talk to me you are a member of the unwashed, get your post count up and get back to me in about a year. ;D

Well done...Well done.:approve:

TheReverend

10-28-2008, 01:31 PM

I'm sure they do. America has been built on racism, in-equality, hatred, and Propaganda. I grew up with racial tension between blacks and whites, so I don't hardly notice it, but when I saw that same irrational fear and ignorance thrown at the immigrants from the middle east and west Asia, I saw it from the outside and how horrible it is. I see kids at the high school where i coach football being called Saddam and terrorist and they are from India! So much ignorance brought from fear. It's horrible. I never realized how scared people really are. I think that alone is a plight against the current administration. How they have fear mongered us right back to the 50's.

...because the rest of the world is so much more progressive with these issues?

Rank&File

10-28-2008, 01:48 PM

Those of you with this arrogant way of seeing things will be taught a painful lesson some day. Hopefully Obama will seek a coalition of allies to move against terrorism.

I agree with the second part of your statement. But WTF are you talking about with that first sentence. You get that out of Bin Laden's diary? Who the **** says something like that? Goddamn you are one ****ed up old man.

Rank&File

10-28-2008, 01:59 PM

Here's a few more you can use baja:

"We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.orangemane.com/BB/ /><o:p><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3></o:p>There is no dialogue except with weapons"
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>"</o:p>Every Muslim, from the moment they realize the distinction in their hearts, hates Americans, hates Jews and hates Christians. For as long as I can remember, I have felt tormented and at war, and have felt hatred and animosity for Americans"

Hotrod

10-28-2008, 02:04 PM

Rank&File

10-28-2008, 03:19 PM

i didn't vote for him and his band of thieves and you are right i do consider myself more a citizen of the world than a "them vs us" type of guy but I do understand your perspective given the fact you have never been out of Texas and your high level of fear of that that you do not know. What is amazing to me is the people of the world that have your same lack of worldly experience yet are so much more open and non judgmental.

I can't help but keep picking this tripe out of your posts. You must **** Tiffany cufflinks. Your inflated ego alone is enough to keep you afloat you don't need the dead sea for that.:oyvey:

elsid13

10-28-2008, 03:38 PM

I can't help but keep picking this tripe out of your posts. You must **** Tiffany cufflinks. Your inflated ego alone is enough to keep you afloat you don't need the dead sea for that.:oyvey:

god dammit, hotrod. Are you going to let the newbie get away with this???

We all know that your ego shouldn't take a back seat to anyone's and baja's seems to having its own vacation

rastaman

10-28-2008, 03:50 PM

I saw on Fox news a report that it is possible that Barrys social security # starts with 666. Now that is news you wont hear the liberal media talking about.

So how long have you been a FAUX NEWS FAN...........

rastaman

10-28-2008, 03:52 PM

5 letters in both words..Barry = Satan. Coincidence? I think not.

Were you aware the Biblical name for McCain is ........"Son-of-Cain"!!!!!LOL

kappys

10-28-2008, 06:26 PM

Syria has been attacking the U.S. for years. Through surrogates. Including Al Queda.

I'm not suggesting that we do nothing about it. Merely pointing out an egregious double standard.

The question again is would Nicaragua be justified in bombing the United States? Because that is the clear justification you are using here for us to bomb Syria.

Bronco Bob

10-28-2008, 06:32 PM

Amazing! I have been surrounded by 100% Muslims for 3 days now and no one has even looked at my neck. Most of the people here in the Middle East are very decent folks who like to engage foreigners. I have been treated very well here, actually I have been extended greater hospitality here than I would ever receive in the USA. Your government has you brain washed and blinded by fear. BTW that is one of the ways that Bush is like Hitler, he uses fear to control.

When I was in college I met Arabians, Syrians, Iranians, Egyptians,
Libyans, Turks, and Iraqis, and they were the nicest people I have
ever met. I just don't get all this hatred for Muslims based on
what a few bad apples have done. Should we hate all Christians
because of what Timothy McVeigh did?

Bronco Bob

10-28-2008, 06:38 PM

To the winners go the rice cakes I guess

Vietnam will be the next China in terms of manufacturing and trade.
Already China doesn't have enough labor to meet their manufacturing
demands and are setting up manufacturing facilities in Vietnam.
Look to see a lot of Made in Vietnam labels at WalMart in the coming
years.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN

10-28-2008, 06:49 PM

When I was in college I met Arabians, Syrians, Iranians, Egyptians,
Libyans, Turks, and Iraqis, and they were the nicest people I have
ever met. I just don't get all this hatred for Muslims based on
what a few bad apples have done. Should we hate all Christians
because of what Timothy McVeigh did?

Ding ding ding! :yep:

I've had the same experiences.

Isn't it funny how the "death to all Muslims" kooks are usually ignorant rubes who have never traveled, never actually known any Muslims, etc?

Thank God these embarrassing yokels will no longer be representing America come 1/09.

elsid13

10-28-2008, 06:50 PM

Vietnam will be the next China in terms of manufacturing and trade.
Already China doesn't have enough labor to meet their manufacturing
demands and are setting up manufacturing facilities in Vietnam.
Look to see a lot of Made in Vietnam labels at WalMart in the coming
years.

labor cheaper in Vietnam. So less cost more profit.

Bronco Bob

10-28-2008, 06:55 PM

labor cheaper in Vietnam. So less cost more profit.

Yeah, that was another point I should have mentioned. The Chinese
are becoming wealthy. Sure there are a lot of poor people. But
a lot of them are in remote rural areas where it's hard to set up
a manufacturing facility. The average urban dwellers in China is
getting paid a lot more than the average urban dweller in Vietnam.
So for the same reason the US manufacturers shipped our jobs
to China, the Chines are shipping jobs to Vietnam.

kappys

10-29-2008, 07:30 AM

Feeling sorry for Assad and Syria is a joke. They run a ruthless dictatorship and deserve to be bombed when they step out of line.

The problem with this line of thinking is that its the same as the terrorists who flew planes into the towers.

They think that by punishing civilians whom they have little interest in they are somehow harming the leadership of countries that they despise.

But that is never how it works. bombing countries usually strengthens the most brutual and harsh elements, which can then use fear and Gestapo tactics to crack down on any domestic dissent.

There are plenty of ways to support real democracy in the Middle East, we just won't do it because they might vote in governments that don't capitulate to US demands. That is not tolerated. Isolated examples like Syria can exist because they don't have anything of value, but if they had oil the issue would have been decided long ago.

rastaman

10-29-2008, 03:34 PM

labor cheaper in Vietnam. So less cost more profit.

Actually there won't be that much profit if import tarrif taxes are restored in this country.

Restoring import tarrif laws and taxes could get rather expensive for those American Companies who who layed off white collar and blue collar workers to go offshore to exploit 3rd world labor.

These companies will pay a hefty tariff tax when its time to bring their products back to this country.

Tax breaks will only go to those U.S. companies who keep their companies, factories, and businesses in this U.S., not to those companies who lay off workers to go overseas to set up shop.

elsid13

10-29-2008, 04:32 PM

Actually there won't be that much profit if import tarrif taxes are restored in this country.

Restoring import tarrif laws and taxes could get rather expensive for those American Companies who who layed off white collar and blue collar workers to go offshore to exploit 3rd world labor.

These companies will pay a hefty tariff tax when its time to bring their products back to this country.

Tax breaks will only go to those U.S. companies who keep their companies, factories, and businesses in this U.S., not to those companies who lay off workers to go overseas to set up shop.

The problem with that line of thinking is the WTO treaties do not allow us to that. The key is not to impose tariffs on our border but to force other nations to lower theirs, remove the government subsidies and meet base environmental standards. But key is not to attempt to try to become a commodities based economy but to continue to evolve into specialized skills one that create wealth through innovation and knowledge.

That One Guy

10-29-2008, 04:50 PM

Everyone should keep in mind that the Muslim you met in college isn't the average Muslim. The huge Arab population just outside Detroit, Michigan that they loved to show in the early days of the Iraq war aren't the average Iraqi. The average Arabs, from my perspective, are so ingrained in a world of bribes and corruption that everyone's lives begin to center around themselves.

Islam as a religion isn't inherently evil. Unfortunately, some of the religious leadership for many, many, many years have tought hatred, violence, and non-acceptance. Now, you take those born into corruption and their only avenue to a higher being involves a hateful soul as many Islamic personalities are... you end up, very soon, with a unprosperous, corrupt, and hateful people.

Without oil, the Middle East as a whole would be simply war torn villages living in antiquated living conditions. Since they have oil, they're just as incompetent for the most part, they just don't always live so bad off. A reason to invest in alternate energy, I guess. Watch the Middle East dissolve into what it is at heart when that pot of gold begins to run thin.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN

10-29-2008, 05:36 PM

Everyone should keep in mind that the Muslim you met in college isn't the average Muslim.

And you make this generalization based on what experience or authority?

How about an assessment of the "average Christian" in two paragraphs?

Bronco Bob

10-29-2008, 05:41 PM

And you make this generalization based on what experience or authority?

How about an assessment of the "average Christian" in two paragraphs?

Like this, for instance?

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/mccain-miami-rally-getting-ugly-down.html

L.A. BRONCOS FAN

10-29-2008, 05:47 PM

Or this?

ABC News: Neo-Nazi Obama Plot One of "A Handful" of "Serious" Threats Against Obama: Secret Service Reports Record Number of Assassination Threats 10/29 (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6123157&page=1)

Rank&File

10-29-2008, 05:52 PM

And you make this generalization based on what experience or authority?

How about an assessment of the "average Christian" in two paragraphs?

I'll make a generalization... Some of the muslims I met in Iraq are not the same as the muslims that i work, and go to school with now.

Here's another....Some of the christians that i saw jumping around playing with rattlesnakes and speaking some crazy languages in Alabama, are not the same as the christians sitting calmly listening to the female methodist preacher that spoke last sunday in Va.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN

10-29-2008, 05:53 PM

I'll make a generalization... Some of the muslims I met in Iraq are not the same as the muslims that i work, and go to school with now.

Here's another....Some of the christians that i saw jumping around playing with rattlesnakes and speaking some crazy languages in Alabama, are not the same as the christians sitting calmly listening to the female methodist preacher that spoke last sunday in Va.

;D

That One Guy

10-29-2008, 06:56 PM

And you make this generalization based on what experience or authority?

How about an assessment of the "average Christian" in two paragraphs?

That's a moot point. "Muslims" and "Arabs" are almost synonymous. Americans aren't operating under the control of any religions. The most powerful men in America are businessmen. The most powerful in many Arabic countries are the religious leaders. So Christians don't matter in this discussion.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN

10-29-2008, 07:01 PM

That's a moot point. "Muslims" and "Arabs" are almost synonymous.

:oyvey:

Good God, how does one even begin to argue with this level of ignorance?

Americans aren't operating under the control of any religions. The most powerful men in America are businessmen. The most powerful in many Arabic countries are the religious leaders. So Christians don't matter in this discussion.

But you just made a generalization about an entire group of people based solely on their religious beliefs.

That One Guy

10-29-2008, 07:13 PM

:oyvey:

Good God, how does one even begin to argue with this level of ignorance?

But you just made a generalization about an entire group of people based solely on their religious beliefs.

...? It is absolutely true that Arab nations are more religiously aligned than the US is. They are adamently religious in most nations with a few less so. You have the spectrum of something like Syria where they're still very much aligned with the religion to somewhere like Saudi Arabia where religion is almost literally law. Either way, if you see an Arab in his home country, I'd put money on it that he's a Muslim. It's generally a safe bet.

I did say that previous statement that you quoted wrong though. Almost all Arabs are Muslim, all Muslims are not necessarily Arab so I was wrong.

As for my generalization, yes it was a generalization. Nothing ever meets a stereotype or prejudice 100%. That doesn't make it a completely inaccurate stereotype, merely means there are exceptions. There's always exceptions. The generalization that I made is that those things I said were what I've seen from what I will term "authentic" Muslims. Not the Americanized version so many run into stateside :)

Anyone remember where we took a left off of US-Planes-attack-Syria Avenue and ended up here again? We've had the "I don't like the Muslim world" conversation before and it's well documented.

Rank&File

10-29-2008, 07:18 PM

[QUOTE=cah412;2144853]Anyone remember where we took a left off of US-Planes-attack-Syria Avenue and ended up here again? We've had the "I don't like the Muslim world" conversation before and it's well documented

Somewhere between baja drinking turkish coffee at a bathhouse and this quote from Anchorman:

We've both seen our share of pornographic materials.

Oh, you never have?

Of course you haven't,
how stupid of me. Neither have I.

I was just speaking
in generalities.

I'll stop by the school
a little later, Sister Margaret. Bye.

cutthemdown

10-29-2008, 07:41 PM

And you make this generalization based on what experience or authority?

How about an assessment of the "average Christian" in two paragraphs?

I'd say that when you meet college students they represent the avg college student. You can't compare students to non-students they are in 2 totally different environments.

Also you generalize republicans all the time with no authority to back it up.

You're so 2 faced no one knows if you're coming or going.

cutthemdown

10-29-2008, 07:43 PM

That One Guy

10-29-2008, 11:52 PM

besides anyone who believes the US decided to bomb some innocent Syrians house just to be ruthless is pretty naive. No way the govt would risk the fallout from such an action for no reason.

I can believe some innocents may have went down with the bad guys but so goes the breaks when you have enemies of the US near you.

From all reports it sounds like the military has proof they killed the guy they were after. They may even have the body for all we know.

I've had targets before that when we've identified their location, we don't think twice. Consideration for family is done in the timespan between where the missile leaves the aircraft and before it explodes on impact. Sad fact is that the way these people move around, you don't pass an opportunity to turn em into hamburger by whatever means necessary.

This isn't the first time these things have happened but this was the first time it was blatantly an invasion of Syrian airspace so it's getting uber-press. "Accidental" runs have happened in the past where we didn't know we were crossing over while in pursuit and we thought the Syrian border patrol was just shooting at our aircraft because they were picking on us. The Syrians were known to shoot across the border just to f with people and try to pick a fight so it was always plausible enough for those deeming accountability.

As I said earlier in the thread, I'm fairly certain it was no coincidence that the source of the article used the phrase "sensitive information". I'd be willing to bet I know how this operation went down and I'd be very confident in their intelligence.

I'd be willing to put a very large sum of money on it that we know 3 facts in this situation. 1: The Americans knew they were crossing into Syrian territory. 2: The Syrians are well aware of foreign fighter infiltration across their borders. 3: The Americans knew exactly who they were going after and acted upon time sensitive information which means they almost assuredly got their target. Anyone that doubts those 3 statements absolutely should rethink their position if they want to understand the situation that unfolded here.

Bronco Bob

10-30-2008, 12:55 AM

That's a moot point. "Muslims" and "Arabs" are almost synonymous.

The nation with the highest Muslim population is India. Not very many Arabs
in India. The largest nation with a majority Muslim population is Indonesia,
also not very many Arabs in Indonesia. Iran and Pakistan also have
large Muslim populations. Neither of whose people are Arabs. Several
nations of the former Soviet Union also have predominantly Muslim
populations, and these people aren't Arabs either. Of the billion
and a half Muslims in the world, only 17% are Arabs.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN

10-30-2008, 02:47 AM

cutthemdown

10-30-2008, 04:03 AM

L.A. BRONCOS FAN

10-30-2008, 04:06 AM

We are fighting Islamic extremists who just happen to be Muslims.

Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

cutthemdown

10-30-2008, 04:20 AM

Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

It's not really funny a lot of people have died.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN

10-30-2008, 04:30 AM

It's not really funny a lot of people have died.

That's not what I was laughing about.

SJ Bronco

10-30-2008, 08:29 AM

I can believe some innocents may have went down with the bad guys but so goes the breaks when you have enemies of the US near you.

"Excluding the 19 hijackers, 2,974 people died in the attacks. Another 24 are missing and presumed dead. The overwhelming majority of casualties were civilians, including nationals of over 90 different countries. In addition, the death of at least one person from lung disease was ruled by a medical examiner to be a result of exposure to dust from the World Trade Center's collapse."

NBC NEWS 2001

I'm thinking there are people who think just like you. Substitute US for Islam and you probably have a direct quote.:notthissh

baja

10-30-2008, 09:51 AM

That's a moot point. "Muslims" and "Arabs" are almost synonymous. Americans aren't operating under the control of any religions. The most powerful men in America are businessmen. The most powerful in many Arabic countries are the religious leaders. So Christians don't matter in this discussion.

There are 12 million Christian Arabs in the Middle East

baja

10-30-2008, 01:39 PM

Rank&File

10-30-2008, 02:54 PM

[QUOTE=Rank&File;2144859]

That's a perfect movie for you. Right up your alley.

You didn't like it? Oh yeah, my grandpa didn't like it either, so I guess I understand. But just so you know...Jazz flute is for little fairy boys.

That One Guy

10-30-2008, 04:59 PM

The nation with the highest Muslim population is India. Not very many Arabs
in India. The largest nation with a majority Muslim population is Indonesia,
also not very many Arabs in Indonesia. Iran and Pakistan also have
large Muslim populations. Neither of whose people are Arabs. Several
nations of the former Soviet Union also have predominantly Muslim
populations, and these people aren't Arabs either. Of the billion
and a half Muslims in the world, only 17% are Arabs.

"I did say that previous statement that you quoted wrong though. Almost all Arabs are Muslim, all Muslims are not necessarily Arab so I was wrong. "

I had already beat you to the punch there sunshine. It doesn't mean that the two words aren't almost synonymous, I was just going to concede it in advance because it contributes nothing to argue my opinion there. If you played that word association game, Arab-Muslim-Terrorist would be a very common connection. Say one of the 3, get one of the other two quite often, I'd bet. That's the point I was getting at but I didn't feel like someone claiming a moral victory by pointing out statistics that don't necessarily matter. But, even after I corrected myself to avoid straying even further, you insisted on claiming that victory so go ahead and get yourself that gold star. You deserve it.

That One Guy

10-30-2008, 05:06 PM

There are 12 million Christian Arabs in the Middle East

Well, Baja too gets that gold star. Congratulations for arguing a point that doesn't matter. There may be Christians, but they are so few and far between that they don't constitute a real force in any venue and are quite often outcasts in any society.

You guys realize how retarded it is to poke these little holes that you all think makes your point, right? How many people are there in the middle east and what percentage of that does 12 million make? I bet it's not very large. But you wanted that gold star so you too are correct, sir. Please see Bronco Bob to arrange a date for your star presentation.

cutthemdown

10-30-2008, 05:10 PM

"Excluding the 19 hijackers, 2,974 people died in the attacks. Another 24 are missing and presumed dead. The overwhelming majority of casualties were civilians, including nationals of over 90 different countries. In addition, the death of at least one person from lung disease was ruled by a medical examiner to be a result of exposure to dust from the World Trade Center's collapse."

NBC NEWS 2001

I'm thinking there are people who think just like you. Substitute US for Islam and you probably have a direct quote.:notthissh

I wasn't talking about 9-11. I was talking about the bombing in Syria.

That One Guy

10-30-2008, 05:20 PM

I wasn't talking about 9-11. I was talking about the bombing in Syria.

But it serves his purpose if he tries to say an actual military mission with collateral damage is the same as a terrorist attack on a solely civilian target. Drawing insane conclusions, making absurd connections, and arguing completely insignificant portions of a thread or post are becoming the absolute norm and textbook arguement for some. All that is until Spider enters the conversation and completely abandons the point just to threaten/personally attack someone and pat himself on the back for it, of course.

SJ Bronco

10-30-2008, 07:43 PM

But it serves his purpose if he tries to say an actual military mission with collateral damage is the same as a terrorist attack on a solely civilian target. Drawing insane conclusions, making absurd connections, and arguing completely insignificant portions of a thread or post are becoming the absolute norm and textbook arguement for some. All that is until Spider enters the conversation and completely abandons the point just to threaten/personally attack someone and pat himself on the back for it, of course.

pay attention newbie, I didn't say it was the same event, I said your boy think like a terrorist. Btw -Were you there in Syria, do you know it was a strategic hit? You know, it seems to me, if you declare war on terrorist, then when they attack you and they plan it, it's a strategic hit.

Miss I.

10-30-2008, 08:01 PM

what % of Arab countries are Muslim? Is there even one non Muslim Arab country.

And who really cares anyways we aren't fighting against mainstream Muslims in India or Indonesia. We are fighting Islamic extremists who just happen to be Muslims. Everyone understands they twist the religion to stir furor among young people, and to control people to live by strict religious rules.

I believe what LABF was laughing at and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong is the fact that you wrote Islamic extremists who happen to be Muslim. Muslims are members of the nation of Islam and therefore are Islamic. Now amongst Islams followers (called Muslims) are various denominations: Suni and Shi'a being the most referenced (there are a few smaller off shoots like Sufism that are not strictly denominations).

As far as country breakdown of Muslim nations, here's a link to Wikpedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country#By_country

I believe you will find in India, Islam is not the largest religion, it is more likely to be Hinduism.
"Hinduism is the world's third largest religion after Christianity and Islam, with approximately a billion adherents, of whom about 905 million live in India.[8] Other countries with large Hindu populations include Nepal, Sri Lanka, Indonesia (Bali), Malaysia, Singapore, Mauritius, Fiji, Suriname, Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago, Canada, and the United States"

Anyway, short story long, that's probably what that was about.

That One Guy

10-30-2008, 08:02 PM

pay attention newbie, I didn't say it was the same event, I said your boy think like a terrorist. Btw -Were you there in Syria, do you know it was a strategic hit? You know, it seems to me, if you declare war on terrorist, then when they attack you and they plan it, it's a strategic hit.

Are you really trying to legitimize 9-11 here?

SJ Bronco

10-30-2008, 08:04 PM

Are you really trying to legitimize 9-11 here?

Quite the opposite, I'm trying to show you how inhumane it is to bomb a country you haven't declared war on. Sneak attack, pearl harbor style ain't right.

That One Guy

10-30-2008, 08:09 PM

Quite the opposite, I'm trying to show you how inhumane it is to bomb a country you haven't declared war on. Sneak attack, pearl harbor style ain't right.

Nobody attacked Syria though. There was an attack IN Syria but the Syrian Government was in no way harmed. Nor were 99.9999999 percent of the population. Can you say that about 9-11? A precision strike with military objectives and some collateral damage is different from a terrorist attack. I refuse to argue this point anymore. If you think 9-11 was fair game because the US declared war on terror (a phrase which wasn't even being used at the time) then there's nothing anyone here is gonna be able to do for you and your logic.

SJ Bronco

10-30-2008, 08:11 PM

kappys

10-30-2008, 08:20 PM

Nobody attacked Syria though. There was an attack IN Syria but the Syrian Government was in no way harmed. Nor were 99.9999999 percent of the population. Can you say that about 9-11? A precision strike with military objectives and some collateral damage is different from a terrorist attack. I refuse to argue this point anymore. If you think 9-11 was fair game because the US declared war on terror (a phrase which wasn't even being used at the time) then there's nothing anyone here is gonna be able to do for you and your logic.

Actually this is the second war on terror. Remember that the first war on terror was declared by Reagan, as he was frightened that Nicaraguans were only 2 days marching time from Texas and he'd be damned if Nicaragua was going to invade the US.

Some simple questions though.

If Saudi Arabia launched an attack in the United States to take out dissidents(or insurgents, or terrorists all a matter of definition) that opposed their government would you sanction such actions? What if they accomplished their goal of killing a terrorist at a cost of 6 American lives is it justified?

Bronco Bob

10-30-2008, 08:20 PM

Nobody attacked Syria though. There was an attack IN Syria but the Syrian Government was in no way harmed. Nor were 99.9999999 percent of the population.

By that logic the Japanese were justified in bombing Pearl Harbor.
It was a precision strike at a military target that had the potential
to cause harm to Japan. The US government was in no way affected,
nor was 99.999% of the population of the US at that time.
Hawaii wasn't even a state at the time, just a territory.

cutthemdown

10-30-2008, 08:37 PM

But it serves his purpose if he tries to say an actual military mission with collateral damage is the same as a terrorist attack on a solely civilian target. Drawing insane conclusions, making absurd connections, and arguing completely insignificant portions of a thread or post are becoming the absolute norm and textbook arguement for some. All that is until Spider enters the conversation and completely abandons the point just to threaten/personally attack someone and pat himself on the back for it, of course.

You better wrap a pad around your throat.....Dem's fighten words in Wyoming!!!

cutthemdown

10-30-2008, 08:40 PM

Actually this is the second war on terror. Remember that the first war on terror was declared by Reagan, as he was frightened that Nicaraguans were only 2 days marching time from Texas and he'd be damned if Nicaragua was going to invade the US.

Some simple questions though.

If Saudi Arabia launched an attack in the United States to take out dissidents(or insurgents, or terrorists all a matter of definition) that opposed their government would you sanction such actions? What if they accomplished their goal of killing a terrorist at a cost of 6 American lives is it justified?

It's a stupid scenario because if there were terrorists in USA, Saudi Arabia would tell the CIA and we would arrest them. The reason we had to go into Syria is because their govt turns a blind eye to terrorism and also actually supports them with money and shelter.

So to answer your question of course we would not tolerate any country taking actions inside our borders.

Syria has every right to say we believe in terrorism and fight to protect the people we came into kill. Of course they don't because they know these guys are terrorists and they would rather sweep it under the rug.

That One Guy

10-30-2008, 09:05 PM

By that logic the Japanese were justified in bombing Pearl Harbor.
It was a precision strike at a military target that had the potential
to cause harm to Japan. The US government was in no way affected,
nor was 99.999% of the population of the US at that time.
Hawaii wasn't even a state at the time, just a territory.

Haha... So when the US Navy got attacked at Pearl Harbor, that in no way affected the US Government? You're stretching the boundaries of logic wellllllll beyond their comfortable means. Keep trying, Champ.

By the way, we'll omit any sort of historical reference to the whole Japan was in talks with the US at the time confirming their neutrality while they were in the middle of planning those attacks.

It's sad you guys will try so hard to win an argument that you'll go beyond justifying 9-11 to the point of saying even Pearl Harbor was fair game.

Do you see anything about the US going into Jordan, Turkey, etc? No. Those countries are policing themselves and their borders. This has been a long standing issue with Syria and the US conducted a single precision strike across the border.

That One Guy

10-30-2008, 09:09 PM

Actually this is the second war on terror. Remember that the first war on terror was declared by Reagan, as he was frightened that Nicaraguans were only 2 days marching time from Texas and he'd be damned if Nicaragua was going to invade the US.

Some simple questions though.

If Saudi Arabia launched an attack in the United States to take out dissidents(or insurgents, or terrorists all a matter of definition) that opposed their government would you sanction such actions? What if they accomplished their goal of killing a terrorist at a cost of 6 American lives is it justified?

As to the first point, that was kinda before my day so I didn't know the phrase had previously been coined. Either way, to say Bin Laden conducted 9-11 in response to any declaration of War on Terror is completely false.

And to the 2nd part, you can't honestly think we'd harbor a terrorist within our borders and purposely prevent a foreign government from recovering them, do you? We can play the if game all day long but the simple fact is that the US government aren't playing the games with anyone that Syria is so noone would have a legitimate reason to even go beyond requesting extradition from the US. We didn't go into Syria to kill a common theif, the US would honor an extradition request for anything serious. You have to make some reasonable concessions and you should be able to admit that we're not Syria.

SJ Bronco

10-30-2008, 09:25 PM

It's sad you guys will try so hard to win an argument that you'll go beyond justifying 9-11 to the point of saying even Pearl Harbor was fair game.

no one said that ::) Keep up sparky...

baja

10-30-2008, 09:46 PM

baja

10-30-2008, 09:57 PM

It's a stupid scenario because if there were terrorists in USA, Saudi Arabia would tell the CIA and we would arrest them. The reason we had to go into Syria is because their govt turns a blind eye to terrorism and also actually supports them with money and shelter.

So to answer your question of course we would not tolerate any country taking actions inside our borders.

Syria has every right to say we believe in terrorism and fight to protect the people we came into kill. Of course they don't because they know these guys are terrorists and they would rather sweep it under the rug.

So if the government ignored them and they attacked anyway would they be terrorists?

kappys

10-31-2008, 06:32 AM

As to the first point, that was kinda before my day so I didn't know the phrase had previously been coined. Either way, to say Bin Laden conducted 9-11 in response to any declaration of War on Terror is completely false.

And to the 2nd part, you can't honestly think we'd harbor a terrorist within our borders and purposely prevent a foreign government from recovering them, do you? We can play the if game all day long but the simple fact is that the US government aren't playing the games with anyone that Syria is so noone would have a legitimate reason to even go beyond requesting extradition from the US. We didn't go into Syria to kill a common theif, the US would honor an extradition request for anything serious. You have to make some reasonable concessions and you should be able to admit that we're not Syria.

1) Neither did the Nicaraguans. They certainly didn't attack the US, we attacked them. We alone have been convicted of International Terrorism by the World Court. Of course the edict is unenforcable. Of course this is before your time, and those who hold the clubs often find it convenient to ignore history. The same is not true for the victims of the clubs, who tend to have a rather clear memory. 20 years ago is not very long, and the victims of our foreign policy still suffer from its effects.

2) We are making some pretty tall assumptions about the US when you suggest that we would extradite any known criminal. Noriega comes to mind - who by all rights should be extradited to Nicaragua and not sit in US detention. In addition we, ironically I suppose, wouldn't extradite someone to Syria because they torture their prisoners and therefore it would be illegal for us to do so.

3) The argument that the US is better than Syria holds no real weight. So what? Feudalism was better than slavery - is that a serious argument for a fuedal society? Arguing that we are not as bad as some other guy who is really bad does not justify immoral actions.

alkemical

10-31-2008, 06:53 AM

1) Neither did the Nicaraguans. They certainly didn't attack the US, we attacked them. We alone have been convicted of International Terrorism by the World Court. Of course the edict is unenforcable. Of course this is before your time, and those who hold the clubs often find it convenient to ignore history. The same is not true for the victims of the clubs, who tend to have a rather clear memory. 20 years ago is not very long, and the victims of our foreign policy still suffer from its effects.

2) We are making some pretty tall assumptions about the US when you suggest that we would extradite any known criminal. Noriega comes to mind - who by all rights should be extradited to Nicaragua and not sit in US detention. In addition we, ironically I suppose, wouldn't extradite someone to Syria because they torture their prisoners and therefore it would be illegal for us to do so.

3) The argument that the US is better than Syria holds no real weight. So what? Feudalism was better than slavery - is that a serious argument for a fuedal society? Arguing that we are not as bad as some other guy who is really bad does not justify immoral actions.

Isn't there something that permates with our culture. Pick the lesser of two evils, etc - has led us down a slope where we use semantics to validate our own corruptions.

That One Guy

10-31-2008, 12:37 PM

1) Neither did the Nicaraguans. They certainly didn't attack the US, we attacked them. We alone have been convicted of International Terrorism by the World Court. Of course the edict is unenforcable. Of course this is before your time, and those who hold the clubs often find it convenient to ignore history. The same is not true for the victims of the clubs, who tend to have a rather clear memory. 20 years ago is not very long, and the victims of our foreign policy still suffer from its effects.

2) We are making some pretty tall assumptions about the US when you suggest that we would extradite any known criminal. Noriega comes to mind - who by all rights should be extradited to Nicaragua and not sit in US detention. In addition we, ironically I suppose, wouldn't extradite someone to Syria because they torture their prisoners and therefore it would be illegal for us to do so.

3) The argument that the US is better than Syria holds no real weight. So what? Feudalism was better than slavery - is that a serious argument for a fuedal society? Arguing that we are not as bad as some other guy who is really bad does not justify immoral actions.

OK, well again... we missed the point here. The point was that the US wouldn't allow someone to run free and terrorize other countries from within its borders.

Rohirrim

10-31-2008, 01:08 PM

Actually this is the second war on terror. Remember that the first war on terror was declared by Reagan, as he was frightened that Nicaraguans were only 2 days marching time from Texas and he'd be damned if Nicaragua was going to invade the US.

Some simple questions though.

If Saudi Arabia launched an attack in the United States to take out dissidents(or insurgents, or terrorists all a matter of definition) that opposed their government would you sanction such actions? What if they accomplished their goal of killing a terrorist at a cost of 6 American lives is it justified?

You're trying to forward an argument that creates a logic vacuum by denying the existence of 911. The correct analogy would be, if terrorists had carried out an attack on Saudi Arabia that killed three thousand Saudis and the U.S. was harboring members of the terrorist organization that carried out that attack, would the Saudis be justified in carrying out an attack against that organization within the U.S.? And the answer would be, of course they are justified. However, the U.S. would not engage in that behavior, would they? Or I should say, would we?

Let me ask you a question. If the U.S. knew for 100% certain that a house in NW Pakistan (the unincorporated tribal area) contained Bin Laden and Zawahiri would the U.S. be justified in firing a couple of missiles into that house to take them out?

cutthemdown

10-31-2008, 03:40 PM

So if the government ignored them and they attacked anyway would they be terrorists?

The point is our govt wouldn't ignore terrorists. If you make a hypothetical in which America harbors terrorists then I guess you could say other countries would be within there rights to attack. It's a stupid hypo though. Even you have to admit that America does not let known terrorists operate from out soil to carry out attacks on other countries.

baja

10-31-2008, 09:48 PM

The point is our govt wouldn't ignore terrorists. If you make a hypothetical in which America harbors terrorists then I guess you could say other countries would be within there rights to attack. It's a stupid hypo though. Even you have to admit that America does not let known terrorists operate from out soil to carry out attacks on other countries.

One nations terrorists is another nations freedom fighters.

kappys

10-31-2008, 11:01 PM

You're trying to forward an argument that creates a logic vacuum by denying the existence of 911. The correct analogy would be, if terrorists had carried out an attack on Saudi Arabia that killed three thousand Saudis and the U.S. was harboring members of the terrorist organization that carried out that attack, would the Saudis be justified in carrying out an attack against that organization within the U.S.? And the answer would be, of course they are justified. However, the U.S. would not engage in that behavior, would they? Or I should say, would we?

Let me ask you a question. If the U.S. knew for 100% certain that a house in NW Pakistan (the unincorporated tribal area) contained Bin Laden and Zawahiri would the U.S. be justified in firing a couple of missiles into that house to take them out?

Not really a great argument either. Lets take another 911 - Sept 11th 1973 when the CIA sponsored and essentially created a coup that overthrew Salvador Allende the democratically elected President of Chile and installed Pinochet leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people(I would have to look at the exact figures again to be sure). Would the people of Chile be justified in bombing CIA headquarters?

I'm not sure how you really justify saying that we haven't engaged in that behavior when there is ample evidence to the contrary.

I agree with your second point - there are times when violence is justified. Its a fine line to draw when you are sacrificing innocents to prevent further destruction - and the facts about these attacks should be made public and those made to suffer for them should be offerred some compensation(trivial though it may be).

kappys

10-31-2008, 11:03 PM

OK, well again... we missed the point here. The point was that the US wouldn't allow someone to run free and terrorize other countries from within its borders.

I've provided you with plenty of examples of terrorists that run free in the US and terrorize other countries from within our borders. You have choosen to look at the evidence with an obediant blind eye but it is rather clear. Since you've conveniently rejected the World Court conviction of terrorism levelled against the US then who should be the judge of such acts?

cutthemdown

11-01-2008, 12:18 AM

One nations terrorists is another nations freedom fighters.

I'm fine with that. I fully support the right of any country to do what they feel they need to do to be safe. Obviously I'm an American so if what they want, and what America wants, come to odds, I will always pull for America and her allies.

I totally understand how Islamic radicals feel. I have empathy for them. I'm good at putting myself into anothers shoes to try and understand why they feel the way they do.

These radicals IMO are a threat to how I like to live and I don't have much in common with them. I will pull for our boys to kill the **** out of them.

The stories about CIA putting ruthless people in power goes back to many different countries. They have done that a lot. I'm not saying I agree with all of them but I understand why they do it. If countries like Iran/Chili/Iraq want to hate us for that I can understand why they do.

I can totally understand poor little arab boy, has nothing, see's Americans heavy hand, grows up to be a terrorist. It makes total sense. I just can't pull for him even though I can sympathize with the conditions that created him.

Listen it's great you are traveling. It's a great experience to spend time with other cultures, it makes you smarter and more worldly.

The thing is though I don't picture being someone that shows people what's great about America. All you do is hate on it.

I spent some time in Singapore and I can tell you they could care less about American politics outside of free trade issues. They love money in Singapore almost more then we do. Also Singapore is an example of a system that is working that isn't a democracy like America.

I guess it's interesting to know what Euros think of out election. I wouldn't however go thinking that they aren't somewhat nationalistic just like we are. You have to take what they think with a grain of salt IMO.

Rohirrim

11-01-2008, 06:36 AM

Not really a great argument either. Lets take another 911 - Sept 11th 1973 when the CIA sponsored and essentially created a coup that overthrew Salvador Allende the democratically elected President of Chile and installed Pinochet leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people(I would have to look at the exact figures again to be sure). Would the people of Chile be justified in bombing CIA headquarters?

I'm not sure how you really justify saying that we haven't engaged in that behavior when there is ample evidence to the contrary.

I agree with your second point - there are times when violence is justified. Its a fine line to draw when you are sacrificing innocents to prevent further destruction - and the facts about these attacks should be made public and those made to suffer for them should be offerred some compensation(trivial though it may be).

Hell, if you ask me the policies of the American government in the past led directly to the "blowback" of 911. So what do we do about it now? Bomb ourselves? Somewhere the line must be drawn between past and future. I'm hoping when Obama enters the Oval Office in January that the direction of our foreign policy will change deeply and completely and our intelligence services will cease being the trained dogs of the Right Wing agenda of corporatist America. If that does not happen, then we can expect more 911s down the road. In the meantime, there is an organization of terrorists out there committed, not just to the destruction of America, but to the destruction of Western Civilization itself. We cannot afford to curl up into our self-recriminations to such a point that we lose the ability to defend ourselves. Yes, we must change. But we must also fight. What would you prefer, imperfect democracy, or Sharia law?

defenseman

11-01-2008, 06:51 AM

The point is our govt wouldn't ignore terrorists. If you make a hypothetical in which America harbors terrorists then I guess you could say other countries would be within there rights to attack. It's a stupid hypo though. Even you have to admit that America does not let known terrorists operate from out soil to carry out attacks on other countries.

Syria has more payback coming their way shortly...dman

baja

11-01-2008, 08:29 AM

I'm fine with that. I fully support the right of any country to do what they feel they need to do to be safe. Obviously I'm an American so if what they want, and what America wants, come to odds, I will always pull for America and her allies.

I totally understand how Islamic radicals feel. I have empathy for them. I'm good at putting myself into anothers shoes to try and understand why they feel the way they do.

These radicals IMO are a threat to how I like to live and I don't have much in common with them. I will pull for our boys to kill the **** out of them.

The stories about CIA putting ruthless people in power goes back to many different countries. They have done that a lot. I'm not saying I agree with all of them but I understand why they do it. If countries like Iran/Chili/Iraq want to hate us for that I can understand why they do.

I can totally understand poor little arab boy, has nothing, see's Americans heavy hand, grows up to be a terrorist. It makes total sense. I just can't pull for him even though I can sympathize with the conditions that created him.

Listen it's great you are traveling. It's a great experience to spend time with other cultures, it makes you smarter and more worldly.

The thing is though I don't picture being someone that shows people what's great about America. All you do is hate on it.

I spent some time in Singapore and I can tell you they could care less about American politics outside of free trade issues. They love money in Singapore almost more then we do. Also Singapore is an example of a system that is working that isn't a democracy like America.

I guess it's interesting to know what Euros think of out election. I wouldn't however go thinking that they aren't somewhat nationalistic just like we are. You have to take what they think with a grain of salt IMO.

I appreciate your thoughtful answer, but for some reason I can't seem to get the point across I don't hate America I love my country I served my country for three years when it was popular to go to Canada.

My point is this, the US government (as you admit ) has done some things that are viewed as terrorism by other nations, things that have devastated other nations. We are not the squeaky clean nation that many here seem to think. If we do not take an honest look at the actions we take around the globe and at home for that matter we will lose this great nation and that is what troubles me. If we keep our head in the sand the rest of the world will conspire to take us down as they should and that would be tragic because we are the best example of a nation that offers what works for the most of the citizens. Over these last 8 years we have watched Bush and his cronies cripple this great nation with their self serving policies. Those that speak out against those acts are the ones I consider the great Americans.

cutthemdown

11-01-2008, 10:26 AM

I appreciate your thoughtful answer, but for some reason I can't seem to get the point across I don't hate America I love my country I served my country for three years when it was popular to go to Canada.

My point is this, the US government (as you admit ) has done some things that are viewed as terrorism by other nations, things that have devastated other nations. We are not the squeaky clean nation that many here seem to think. If we do not take an honest look at the actions we take around the globe and at home for that matter we will lose this great nation and that is what troubles me. If we keep our head in the sand the rest of the world will conspire to take us down as they should and that would be tragic because we are the best example of a nation that offers what works for the most of the citizens. Over these last 8 years we have watched Bush and his cronies cripple this great nation with their self serving policies. Those that speak out against those acts are the ones I consider the great Americans.

No country is squeaky clean.

Just maybe post some positive things about our country once in awhile to offset your critiques.

I don't think Bush has done as much damage as you think. I agree he's been a bad leader and way to arrogant of a President. I disagree though that we are down and out. I think you will be surprised how quickly the word opinion you seem to care so much about changes when he's gone.

I said once before that people either hate or love America and it can swing quickly. Right now we aren't at a peak of positive feelings from the world.
I tie that into the fact America got attacked and wanted blood in return. Bush gave it to them and then some. In the end I think Americans realized they don't really have the stomach for it. The world saw something that frightened them which was how dangerous the American military is when unleashed.

Bush became the face of American aggression and that was the end of him.
Once all you have is fear and threats you lose your statesmanship and ability to engage in anything but force. 9-11 and how Bush reacted to it shaped the last 8 yrs but I don't think the world has a very long memory unless the bombs actually dropped on you.

In the end they new President will be forgiven and get to start with a clean slate. So is the beauty of the American transfer of power.

Whether you agree with who wins we should all really be happy to live in America. If this is as bad as it gets when we are down and out then we are pretty friggin lucky. I thank you for your service to the country and really do hope that you feel better about America very soon.

baja

11-01-2008, 11:17 AM

No country is squeaky clean.

Just maybe post some positive things about our country once in awhile to offset your critiques.

I don't think Bush has done as much damage as you think. I agree he's been a bad leader and way to arrogant of a President. I disagree though that we are down and out. I think you will be surprised how quickly the word opinion you seem to care so much about changes when he's gone.

I said once before that people either hate or love America and it can swing quickly. Right now we aren't at a peak of positive feelings from the world.
I tie that into the fact America got attacked and wanted blood in return. Bush gave it to them and then some. In the end I think Americans realized they don't really have the stomach for it. The world saw something that frightened them which was how dangerous the American military is when unleashed.

Bush became the face of American aggression and that was the end of him.
Once all you have is fear and threats you lose your statesmanship and ability to engage in anything but force. 9-11 and how Bush reacted to it shaped the last 8 yrs but I don't think the world has a very long memory unless the bombs actually dropped on you.

In the end they new President will be forgiven and get to start with a clean slate. So is the beauty of the American transfer of power.

Whether you agree with who wins we should all really be happy to live in America. If this is as bad as it gets when we are down and out then we are pretty friggin lucky. I thank you for your service to the country<b> and really do hope that you feel better about America very soon.

OK I give up. Go Broncos

That One Guy

11-01-2008, 09:48 PM

No country is squeaky clean.

Just maybe post some positive things about our country once in awhile to offset your critiques.

I don't think Bush has done as much damage as you think. I agree he's been a bad leader and way to arrogant of a President. I disagree though that we are down and out. I think you will be surprised how quickly the word opinion you seem to care so much about changes when he's gone.

I said once before that people either hate or love America and it can swing quickly. Right now we aren't at a peak of positive feelings from the world.
I tie that into the fact America got attacked and wanted blood in return. Bush gave it to them and then some. In the end I think Americans realized they don't really have the stomach for it. The world saw something that frightened them which was how dangerous the American military is when unleashed.

Bush became the face of American aggression and that was the end of him.
Once all you have is fear and threats you lose your statesmanship and ability to engage in anything but force. 9-11 and how Bush reacted to it shaped the last 8 yrs but I don't think the world has a very long memory unless the bombs actually dropped on you.

In the end they new President will be forgiven and get to start with a clean slate. So is the beauty of the American transfer of power.

Whether you agree with who wins we should all really be happy to live in America. If this is as bad as it gets when we are down and out then we are pretty friggin lucky. I thank you for your service to the country and really do hope that you feel better about America very soon.

Does the US being the world police and savior of inferior nations not earn them a bit of extra leway in policing by their own policies?

cutthemdown

11-01-2008, 11:53 PM

Does the US being the world police and savior of inferior nations not earn them a bit of extra leway in policing by their own policies?

I'm not sure i understand the question.

kappys

11-02-2008, 10:40 PM

Hell, if you ask me the policies of the American government in the past led directly to the "blowback" of 911. So what do we do about it now? Bomb ourselves? Somewhere the line must be drawn between past and future. I'm hoping when Obama enters the Oval Office in January that the direction of our foreign policy will change deeply and completely and our intelligence services will cease being the trained dogs of the Right Wing agenda of corporatist America. If that does not happen, then we can expect more 911s down the road. In the meantime, there is an organization of terrorists out there committed, not just to the destruction of America, but to the destruction of Western Civilization itself. We cannot afford to curl up into our self-recriminations to such a point that we lose the ability to defend ourselves. Yes, we must change. But we must also fight. What would you prefer, imperfect democracy, or Sharia law?

Well what you don't do is to continue policies that have created this situation and are likely to worsen it.

The threat of terror and attraction of radical islamic nationalism has increased since we entered Iraq, not diminished. In addition these groups are now attracting well educated intellectuals to their movements, something they had struggled to do in the past.

There are plenty of ways to combat terror, and as you say we are in a hell of a bind right now. The way out would be a policy of not bombing Syria and Pakistan but rather of supporting pro-democratic groups within those countries. Bombing them tends to strengthen the harshest and most repressive forces within those countries and their people, who are desparate for protection by any avaiable means from the US, will turn to them in panic.

If a small incursion is necessary it should be followed immediately by a full disclosure of the cause, target, and civilian casualties. Those who are injured should be given free care at least and some compensation made to their families.

The question is not Western Civilization versus Islam. Rather it is the destruction of the human race versus peace. Islamic Sharia law cannot take over the West - nuclear war would occur long before then so your choices are not valid IMO.