System Issues and the 2008 Broncos

[SpiritGuy]

Read this at MHR and thought you all would appreciate the insight Hoosierteacher shares. I have to agree with him. The problem is the Broncos have no idea who they are. NO IDENTITY! especially on defense. Out of respect for HT I only posted part of the article. You can find the rest at the link

MHR University is a labor of love for me. I try to give the members of MileHighReport.com and those who link us from other sources (like Sports Illustrated) the very best in lessons about football theory and applied practice that I can. I have to admit when I have a bias though, and my biggest bias (other than being a fan of the Broncos) is that I am very geared towards strategy over tactics. In short, this means that I am not so much of a down in the trenches thinker, as much as an overall gameplan thinker.

As such, when I was a defensive coordinator at the scholastic level, I trusted my assistants to coach the important basics (tackling, stance, etc) and left them alone to do their jobs. I was rewarded by a head coach who trusted me to to run the defense without interference. I developed a fascination with systems run on both sides of the ball and how they matched up, and devoted much of my learning to that portion of football theory.

This was a fortunate development on my part. As we approach the halfway mark of the 2008 season, it is identity as a defense and identity on offense that seems to haunt the Broncos. I take a lot of pride in the fact that the wise and informed members of MHR were discussing defensive identity even before the season began. Stories, FanPosts, and Comments came out about what our defense would do. Show Blitz? Zone Blitz? 4-3? 3-4? We watched together as the season progressed, and scratched our collective heads trying to figure out what the system was. I admit feeling ignorant, trying to give answers where I had none. And then it happened. "There is no system!"

After an embarrasing loss in NE the obvious became apparent. Players said it, sportswriters said it, the MHR faithful said it. Let's take a closer look at what this means, and what can be done.

Styles
Here is the quote that tells it all:

"What type of defense are we?" Williams asked as the Broncos, despite the recent travails, hit the bye week with a 4-3 record and a one-game lead in the AFC West. "Are we a 3-4? A 4-3? Are we a finesse defense? Are we smash-mouth? Do we blitz a lot? Play zone? We've got to pick something and just run it and do it." D.J. Williams - Weakside Linebacker

Identity is an issue that goes to the heart of any endeavor involving teams or individuals with goals. The German army in World War 2 was a blitzkrieg offense. NATO during the Cold War held to a defense by attrition identity. Aerosmith is defined by the distinctive vocal sounds of their lead singer, harmonizations, and a stage prescence marked by entertainment. Pink Floyd is marked by the low tones of the lead singer and haunting, surreal lyrics. Garry Kasparov was marked by adventerous, romanticist attacks in chess, and a bias for the Carro-Kann defense as black. Batman is a detective with gadgets who can kick some butt and uses pyschological warfare.

In football, teams have core philosophies that players and coaches rally around. The Raiders defined rough play on the edges of the rules. The Steelers - smash mouth football. The Colts - Tampa 2 defense and a timed offensive spread machine. The 49ers and the West Coast. Denver and the Zone Block. The Pats - extreme defensive adjustments from game to game within the framework of their Fairbanks-Bullough defense.

In this light, the statements of D.J. Williams are very disturbing. "Who am I? Where am I? Why am I here?" are questions for philosophers, not football players in the heat of battle.


*SNIP*

Found here (http://www.milehighreport.com/2008/10/23/641236/mhr-university-system-issu)

[TonyR]

Very disturbing, and more proof that the FO and coaching staff don't know what they're doing on the defensive side of the ball. There's no plan, and if there is a plan it's ****ed up.

[Popps]

"What type of defense are we?" Williams asked as the Broncos, despite the recent travails, hit the bye week with a 4-3 record and a one-game lead in the AFC West. "Are we a 3-4? A 4-3? Are we a finesse defense? Are we smash-mouth? Do we blitz a lot? Play zone? We've got to pick something and just run it and do it." D.J. Williams - Weakside Linebacker

[B]Identity is an issue that goes to the heart of any endeavor involving teams or individuals with goals.

DJ's right. I've been posting that almost word for word on this forum for what seems like years, and not just about the defense. This TEAM has no identity.

Those who want to poo-poo the concept when I say it can now take it from someone out there on the field.

This team has no idea what they are.

[Los Broncos]

One thing is for sure we aren't tacklers.

[Bronx33]

Can't............. stop............ looking............ at................................... avatar....

[oubronco]

"What type of defense are we?" Williams asked as the Broncos, despite the recent travails, hit the bye week with a 4-3 record and a one-game lead in the AFC West. "Are we a 3-4? A 4-3? Are we a finesse defense? Are we smash-mouth? Do we blitz a lot? Play zone? We've got to pick something and just run it and do it." D.J. Williams - Weakside Linebacker


this is coming from a veteran who is supposed to be a leader on this team and he has "NO CLUE" as to what they are supposed to be running?

this is alarming to me what are the rookies learning are they getting anything from this season except confused?

this is sad VERY SAD

[2KBack]

IF anyone was looking for a reason for the stunted growth of the defensive rookies, here you go. It is hard enough trying to make it in the NFL, imagine trying to do it without a solid system to learn and run.

[TonyR]

Didn't the players lobby to have Slowik kept on as DC? Or was it just the d-backs who wanted him? Either way, why did they want this guy? What did they like about him? I'd think you'd want a coach who knows what he's doing, but that's just me...

And SpiritGuy, who is that in your avatar?!?

[yerner]

negative comment..blah...blah...blah...negative comment....

[2KBack]

Didn't the players lobby to have Slowik kept on as DC? Or was it just the d-backs who wanted him? Either way, why did they want this guy? What did they like about him? I'd think you'd want a coach who knows what he's doing, but that's just me...

And SpiritGuy, who is that in your avatar?!?

Well when his job was to just coach the secondary, he probably seemed like he knew what he was doing.

[SpiritGuy]

TonyR, her name is Carrie Dalon :~ohyah!:

this one of her some of you may recognize. I know, it's OT but sometimes ya just need something to smile about.

[BroncoMan4ever]

TonyR, her name is Carrie Dalon :~ohyah!:

this one of her some of you may recognize. I know, it's OT but sometimes ya just need something to smile about.

Wow, I was slightly annoyed with everything that article said and then I saw your attachment and was no longer annoyed. The joy a gorgeous woman can bring is incredible....lol

[HEAV]

Don't expect anything to change. Shanny will fire Slo in the offseason, bring in more free agents (cheap scrap heaps) and blow smoke up people rear-ends again...

What really bothers me is the fact that Shanny has forgotten how to run the ball.

[lex]

My question is why does Slowik get so much more time than Bates? And why is Slowik still the DC?

[Wes Mantooth]

What was this thread about again? Wow spirit guy

[SpiritGuy]

It's been my understanding that things like an Identity for the team whether it was offense or defense came with the Coordinators / Head Coach. Heck everyone knew what Bates system was when he came into town. Even if we didn't have the bodies to play it. Slow doesn't seem to have a clue who he wants the D to be, so he's throwing everything against the wall and hoping something sticks. No way they can become the next Orange Crush, Steel Curtain, Purple People Eaters etc.. until he decides what they are going to play and sticks with it for more than a quarter. Feel kind of bad for the players when every week it changes.

All this stuff IMHO should have been played with at camp and if you want to try a vs b do it during the first few pre season games. No wonder the D has so many issues. When the players don't know who they are as a group they can't embrace it and make it happen. Make a darn decision Slow and let the players play!

[RunByDesign]

Slowik needs to go and soon. This is honestly one of the worst defenses I have ever watched and that was with a healthy Champ Bailey.

It's a disgrace.

The defense is so bad, if the offense has a couple of mis-steps, the team has no chance and it ends in a blowout.

[TonyR]

My question is why does Slowik get so much more time than Bates? And why is Slowik still the DC?

My question is why did Shanahan hire Bates to run a system for which he didn't have the right personnel in place? There were certainly other D-coordinator candidates available. Now he's forced to AGAIN start with a new DC again next season. Unbelievably poor management.

[orinjkrush]

My question is why did Shanahan hire Bates to run a system for which he didn't have the right personnel in place? There were certainly other D-coordinator candidates available. Now he's forced to AGAIN start with a new DC again next season. Unbelievably poor management.

nailed it. fool me once, shame on you....fool me twice, er thrice, er four times err....shame on me.

[broncofan2438]

They seem lost and not sure what is going on. Why is it that the fans can figure it out but not the damn team?

[gyldenlove]

My question is why did Shanahan hire Bates to run a system for which he didn't have the right personnel in place? There were certainly other D-coordinator candidates available. Now he's forced to AGAIN start with a new DC again next season. Unbelievably poor management.

I think I can field that one.

It is easier to hire and fire defensive coordinators (you only really have one at any given time) than it is to hire and fire defensive players (you need 11 minimum at any given time). The easiest way to try something new is to bring in a new DC and hope he can work something out rather than trying to replace half your starters and hope they will all work together.

If we peel back the layers of mud that have accumulated on top of our defensive woes we really have to look at the root of the problem which is that we have added players who fit different system, so we have no way of getting our best players on the field at the same time in any conventional system.

DJ is clearly a 4-3 OLB who is best when facing the play and using his speed and size to push people out of the way and getting to the ball. Champ is clearly best when he gets to decided what he is doing on his own and can keep his eyes peering into the backfield to look for the ball. Dumervil is best when he gets moved around a lot and only plays about 40-50% of the snaps when he can use his fresh legs to get to the passer. Moss would probably be a good fit at rush linebacker in the 3-4 where he can line up in the 9 gap and use his long arms to go wide. Dre Bly is only good when he can play aggressive and not have to support the run.

The issue is that we have not had one set system for a long time, so we simply don't have the material to play any normal system without taking some of our good players off the field or leaving them on the field in positions and jobs that are not suited to them.

Unless Moss can really turn it around in the bottom half of the season I think we need to cut bait and just move on from him. I think we have to play a pretty vanilla 4-3 scheme relying quite heavily on blitzes to mix it up (a lot like the Giants). DJ is a good fit for that as is Champ who would face a lot of 1 on 1 time which suits him well. Dumervil can be used in a rotational role and could even be used in special blitz packages as a SLB. Thomas and Robertson would be a solid pair to rotate in the middle taking up the UT spot with Powell and a big body to be named later to play the NT spot. That would leave us with holes at the DE positions where Ekuban if he can play another season would hold down duties on one side with Dumervil spelling him and we would need another DE to mix with Crowder (if he turns out not to be a total waste of space).

We would need a strong MLB who can control the middle and free up our safeties from having to constantly cheat into the box. We also need a cover safety, someone who can cover tight ends going down the seam and leaving our free safety to look for the ball in pass support.

I just think we are too far away from realisticly being able to play any other system consistently.

[cmhargrove]

I think I can field that one.

It is easier to hire and fire defensive coordinators (you only really have one at any given time) than it is to hire and fire defensive players (you need 11 minimum at any given time). The easiest way to try something new is to bring in a new DC and hope he can work something out rather than trying to replace half your starters and hope they will all work together.

If we peel back the layers of mud that have accumulated on top of our defensive woes we really have to look at the root of the problem which is that we have added players who fit different system, so we have no way of getting our best players on the field at the same time in any conventional system.

DJ is clearly a 4-3 OLB who is best when facing the play and using his speed and size to push people out of the way and getting to the ball. Champ is clearly best when he gets to decided what he is doing on his own and can keep his eyes peering into the backfield to look for the ball. Dumervil is best when he gets moved around a lot and only plays about 40-50% of the snaps when he can use his fresh legs to get to the passer. Moss would probably be a good fit at rush linebacker in the 3-4 where he can line up in the 9 gap and use his long arms to go wide. Dre Bly is only good when he can play aggressive and not have to support the run.

The issue is that we have not had one set system for a long time, so we simply don't have the material to play any normal system without taking some of our good players off the field or leaving them on the field in positions and jobs that are not suited to them.

Unless Moss can really turn it around in the bottom half of the season I think we need to cut bait and just move on from him. I think we have to play a pretty vanilla 4-3 scheme relying quite heavily on blitzes to mix it up (a lot like the Giants). DJ is a good fit for that as is Champ who would face a lot of 1 on 1 time which suits him well. Dumervil can be used in a rotational role and could even be used in special blitz packages as a SLB. Thomas and Robertson would be a solid pair to rotate in the middle taking up the UT spot with Powell and a big body to be named later to play the NT spot. That would leave us with holes at the DE positions where Ekuban if he can play another season would hold down duties on one side with Dumervil spelling him and we would need another DE to mix with Crowder (if he turns out not to be a total waste of space).

We would need a strong MLB who can control the middle and free up our safeties from having to constantly cheat into the box. We also need a cover safety, someone who can cover tight ends going down the seam and leaving our free safety to look for the ball in pass support.

I just think we are too far away from realisticly being able to play any other system consistently.

Did you forward this to Dove Valley?

[chaz]

Are there any hotshot assistant coaches in tampa or indy? a la mike tomlin?

[~Crash~]

Slowik needs to go and soon. This is honestly one of the worst defenses I have ever watched and that was with a healthy Champ Bailey.

It's a disgrace.

The defense is so bad, if the offense has a couple of mis-steps, the team has no chance and it ends in a blowout.

What Defense ?:rofl:

[~Crash~]

Are there any hotshot assistant coaches in tampa or indy? a la mike tomlin?

Yep Coyer :pimp:

[barryr]

Williams is right since it even looks on the field that the players don't know what they're supposed to do. I've mentioned many times how receivers, TE's, and RB's seem to be uncovered way too many times, especially compared to other teams. Guys just don't know their responsibilities and that obviously goes to coaching or lack thereof.

[SpiritGuy]

got to be hard on the players when they bounce between systems from game to game. The responsibilities changing based on the system. A lot of times it seems like they are lost and it's probably trying to remember what system they're using that week and what they should do that has them in a daze.

[tsiguy96]

I think I can field that one.

It is easier to hire and fire defensive coordinators (you only really have one at any given time) than it is to hire and fire defensive players (you need 11 minimum at any given time). The easiest way to try something new is to bring in a new DC and hope he can work something out rather than trying to replace half your starters and hope they will all work together.

If we peel back the layers of mud that have accumulated on top of our defensive woes we really have to look at the root of the problem which is that we have added players who fit different system, so we have no way of getting our best players on the field at the same time in any conventional system.

DJ is clearly a 4-3 OLB who is best when facing the play and using his speed and size to push people out of the way and getting to the ball. Champ is clearly best when he gets to decided what he is doing on his own and can keep his eyes peering into the backfield to look for the ball. Dumervil is best when he gets moved around a lot and only plays about 40-50% of the snaps when he can use his fresh legs to get to the passer. Moss would probably be a good fit at rush linebacker in the 3-4 where he can line up in the 9 gap and use his long arms to go wide. Dre Bly is only good when he can play aggressive and not have to support the run.

The issue is that we have not had one set system for a long time, so we simply don't have the material to play any normal system without taking some of our good players off the field or leaving them on the field in positions and jobs that are not suited to them.

Unless Moss can really turn it around in the bottom half of the season I think we need to cut bait and just move on from him. I think we have to play a pretty vanilla 4-3 scheme relying quite heavily on blitzes to mix it up (a lot like the Giants). DJ is a good fit for that as is Champ who would face a lot of 1 on 1 time which suits him well. Dumervil can be used in a rotational role and could even be used in special blitz packages as a SLB. Thomas and Robertson would be a solid pair to rotate in the middle taking up the UT spot with Powell and a big body to be named later to play the NT spot. That would leave us with holes at the DE positions where Ekuban if he can play another season would hold down duties on one side with Dumervil spelling him and we would need another DE to mix with Crowder (if he turns out not to be a total waste of space).

We would need a strong MLB who can control the middle and free up our safeties from having to constantly cheat into the box. We also need a cover safety, someone who can cover tight ends going down the seam and leaving our free safety to look for the ball in pass support.

I just think we are too far away from realisticly being able to play any other system consistently.

forward this to every denver broncos employee. player, coach, store clerk, vendor person, everyone.

[Fusionfrontman]

^ ditto this. Wow. Post of the year. Good job bro, you nailed it.

I would rather have the D FULLY commit to SOMETHING (ONE THING) rather than half hearted commit to a bunch of different things. It's like a GREAT guitar player focusing on bass, drums, piano, clarinet, trombone and being barely servicable at them all, but able to say hey look at the versitility rather than saying, ' I am a guitar player' and be Phenomenal at it.

[rovolution]

Williams is right since it even looks on the field that the players don't know what they're supposed to do. I've mentioned many times how receivers, TE's, and RB's seem to be uncovered way too many times, especially compared to other teams. Guys just don't know their responsibilities and that obviously goes to coaching or lack thereof.

Having safeties with actual cover ability would somewhat help in that department.

instead we've got Larry, Curly, and Moe.

[chickennob2]

People look at the Patriots and Ravens defenses and are very jealous. Look at all of the things they can do! They can play a 4-3, they can play a 3-4. They can tailor their defense to maximize matchups and confuse the offense. Look at Adalius Thomas, he plays at least 3 different positions, as a 3-4 OLB, 3-4 ILB, 4-3 OLB, and he could see time as a 4-3 DE. The only 'identity' they have is as a versatile defense, able to beat the offense in many ways.

Last year, Bates had a very definite system. We made trades, drafted players, and signed FA's to fit his scheme. We were committed to his scheme. But we didn't have enough of the right players for it, so rather than take our lumps and growing pains, we cut him loose and switched to Slowick, who built a defense to tailor to our players' abilities.

This year, Slowick is doing the same thing. He is switching up the defense to tailor it to our opponent. Playing a pass heavy team? Run a 3-4 to disguise blitz packages. Playing a run heavy team? 8 in the box, with only the biggest boys activated on the d-line. It makes sense. This could be our 'identity' just as much as it is the Patriots' or Ravens' identity. The difference in the effectiveness of our defense and theirs is that they simply have better players.

[Popps]

People look at the Patriots and Ravens defenses and are very jealous. Look at all of the things they can do! They can play a 4-3, they can play a 3-4. They can tailor their defense to maximize matchups and confuse the offense. Look at Adalius Thomas, he plays at least 3 different positions, as a 3-4 OLB, 3-4 ILB, 4-3 OLB, and he could see time as a 4-3 DE. The only 'identity' they have is as a versatile defense, able to beat the offense in many ways.

Last year, Bates had a very definite system. We made trades, drafted players, and signed FA's to fit his scheme. We were committed to his scheme. But we didn't have enough of the right players for it, so rather than take our lumps and growing pains, we cut him loose and switched to Slowick, who built a defense to tailor to our players' abilities.

This year, Slowick is doing the same thing. He is switching up the defense to tailor it to our opponent. Playing a pass heavy team? Run a 3-4 to disguise blitz packages. Playing a run heavy team? 8 in the box, with only the biggest boys activated on the d-line. It makes sense. This could be our 'identity' just as much as it is the Patriots' or Ravens' identity. The difference in the effectiveness of our defense and theirs is that they simply have better players.


No one doubts we're lacking talent, and you make your point well.

It's just a tough call. Slowik doesn't have any track record to show he can produce results in his system, in fact... somewhat the opposite. But, you're
right, cutting him loose now only puts us back at square one as far as rebuilding the D. So, are we worse off back at square one... or giving him another season to show that his defense is making progress?

We're probably in trouble either way, as like you said... it's about talent.

I really wonder what this team could have been like if we just made a couple of serious moves in free agency this and last year.

Imagine Kearney, Rogers and even a journeyman LB like London Fletcher added to this unit. We really might be talking about a different team. Those guys were all out there, along with Jenkins and so many others.

We opted for guys like Engleberger and unproven commodities like Marcus Thomas and Jamie Winborn.

[lex]

No one doubts we're lacking talent, and you make your point well.

It's just a tough call. Slowik doesn't have any track record to show he can produce results in his system, in fact... somewhat the opposite. But, you're
right, cutting him loose now only puts us back at square one as far as rebuilding the D. So, are we worse off back at square one... or giving him another season to show that his defense is making progress?

We're probably in trouble either way, as like you said... it's about talent.

I really wonder what this team could have been like if we just made a couple of serious moves in free agency this and last year.

Imagine Kearney, Rogers and even a journeyman LB like London Fletcher added to this unit. We really might be talking about a different team. Those guys were all out there, along with Jenkins and so many others.

We opted for guys like Engleberger and unproven commodities like Marcus Thomas and Jamie Winborn.

Considering that we're currently at square -4 because of Slowik, Id very much settle for square 1.

[Mediator12]

Good lord, that is a great article! I need to talk to Hoosierteacher about a few things systemically, but otherwise its just a more in depth look at what I have been saying since Preseason.

I have almost seen every NFL game this year and I disagree that this is a down year in games. It is just that the margin between these teams is getting smaller and supposed elite teams are struggling to dominate this year. Otherwise, the quality is extremely high and the blowouts are more circumstantial than dominance.

I will say this, Shanahan has failed to allow the defense to be more than his sidekick as HC. He pays very little attention to having balance on this team, and ST's also struggles because of this. Anyone who thinks the defense matters to Shanahan should watch what he is doing when they are actually on the field. I guarantee its not paying them much attention if at all.....

[chaz]

Considering that we're currently at square -4 because of Slowik, Id very much settle for square 1.

Hilarious! ^5

[TheReverend]

Good lord, that is a great article! I need to talk to Hoosierteacher about a few things systemically, but otherwise its just a more in depth look at what I have been saying since Preseason.

I have almost seen every NFL game this year and I disagree that this is a down year in games. It is just that the margin between these teams is getting smaller and supposed elite teams are struggling to dominate this year. Otherwise, the quality is extremely high and the blowouts are more circumstantial than dominance.

I will say this, Shanahan has failed to allow the defense to be more than his sidekick as HC. He pays very little attention to having balance on this team, and ST's also struggles because of this. Anyone who thinks the defense matters to Shanahan should watch what he is doing when they are actually on the field. I guarantee its not paying them much attention if at all.....

I disagree about a lot of this.

1. The first half of the article is all self-congratulation.

2. You can't own an identity until you find one that's working. Notice what the Titans are playing this year? Bates' base D... only they have the LBs and discipline to pull it off. We can complain about no identity all day, but if it was the same thing every week, and didn't work for just 2 games running, everyone would be screaming about needing changes and adjustments and being outcoached and too predictable.

On the majority of the big plays given up this season, we're a half step away from making the tackle in the backfield, we're a LB attacking the outside shoulder of the blocker away from an easy shed and tackle, we're a breakdown of the hips away from not getting juked into the turf... the good defenses are doing that... and making the plays.

Now... as far as the intermediate coverage is concerned... I don't know wtf is going on still.

3. We've spent a considerable amount of draft picks and FA dollars on the defense (and the special teams as well) in recent years so calling it nothing more than Shanahan's sidekick is not only extremely unfair, but flat out wrong.

[fontaine]

Look, if we all can see this, so can Shanahan.

Don't you think he knows our safeties suck, our DL keeps missing assignments, the coaching at unit level hasn't gotten it done?

The problem isn't that Shanahan DOESN'T know these things. Hell he's given the defense a face lift every offseason for the past 6 years in an effort to make it work.

The long term problem for a cancer patient isn't knowing that s/he has cancer. It's trying to find the solution. Mike Shanahan has shown he knows next to nothing on defense be it drafting players or signing FAs/Coaches.

Until we have a GM or someone else in decision making authority who knows how to pick defensive staff/players then we're going to continue seeing these SAME problems again, and again, and again, with the SAME one year fixit jobs by Mike by hiring/firing coordinators etc.

Hell, Mike fired the best damn D-Coach we've had in the past 10 years in Coyer? What makes anyone believe Shanahan can do any better than that after Bates/Slowik?

I love the guy because he knows the offense inside out, but Shanahan is probably the last guy I want making personnel decisions on defense which is what's happening.

[TonyR]

The long term problem for a cancer patient isn't knowing that s/he has cancer. It's trying to find the solution. Mike Shanahan has shown he knows next to nothing on defense be it drafting players or signing FAs/Coaches.


That about sums it up. Why bring in Bates if you don't have the right players for his system? And then fire him when it doesn't work right away because of not having the right players? Did Shanahan not know we didn't have the right players? Or did he know but think we could correct the problem on the fly? No matter what the situation was he made a mistake that has this team in the position it's in today. Shanahan made this bed, and now we all have to sleep in it.

[TonyR]

I disagree about a lot of this.
We've spent a considerable amount of draft picks and FA dollars on the defense (and the special teams as well) in recent years so calling it nothing more than Shanahan's sidekick is not only extremely unfair, but flat out wrong.

Maybe so, but he hasn't spent the picks and dollars correctly. And it's his job to do that. He failed miserably again this past offseason in defense FA. Boss, Niko, McCree, Manuel. The only "right" decision he made was Robertson. But sorry, one out of five is a failing grade.

[TheReverend]

Maybe so, but he hasn't spent the picks and dollars correctly. And it's his job to do that. He failed miserably again this past offseason in defense FA. Boss, Niko, McCree, Manuel. The only "right" decision he made was Robertson. But sorry, one out of five is a failing grade.

Obviously I missed something that you caught this past off-season. Were there better Safety options out there to garner that kind of criticism? Were there contracts handed out for big money? Boss is the only one that got paid a respectable amount for an NFL player and he was playing up to his contract level (above average) before his injury.

Show me the moves that could've been made differently this past off-season, and I'll even give you the benefit of hindsight.

[Mediator12]

I disagree about a lot of this.

1. The first half of the article is all self-congratulation.

2. You can't own an identity until you find one that's working. Notice what the Titans are playing this year? Bates' base D... only they have the LBs and discipline to pull it off. We can complain about no identity all day, but if it was the same thing every week, and didn't work for just 2 games running, everyone would be screaming about needing changes and adjustments and being outcoached and too predictable.

On the majority of the big plays given up this season, we're a half step away from making the tackle in the backfield, we're a LB attacking the outside shoulder of the blocker away from an easy shed and tackle, we're a breakdown of the hips away from not getting juked into the turf... the good defenses are doing that... and making the plays.

Now... as far as the intermediate coverage is concerned... I don't know wtf is going on still.

3. We've spent a considerable amount of draft picks and FA dollars on the defense (and the special teams as well) in recent years so calling it nothing more than Shanahan's sidekick is not only extremely unfair, but flat out wrong.

1. Self-congratulation occurs when you nail it. This is and has been this teams biggest and most glaring weakness in the Shanahan era. No defensive Identity, no scheme consistency, no drafting players that can play a specific assignment = no progress defensively.

2. Ask yourself this question, Why are the Titans able to play that scheme and DEN does not have a freakin chance? It starts with a dominant set of DT's and 2 very good to great DE's in Kearse and Vanden Bosch. Kyle does not play last night and His backup gets hurt on the opening kickoff and their DL is not as effective as they have been against the Colts, yet they are still more than solid. Bates Scheme really works when you have a dominant DL, which TEN has.

Plus, Who the F cares about fans screaming, 95% have zero clue what actually happens on any given play, but can only see the results. And, you are very wrong on the big plays. There is not one error occuring, there are multiple errors occuring. Mostly it starts with the DT's not holding their gaps in the running game and in the passing game it is not having an inside push as usual. From there, the LB's are overrunning the play and getting walled off on contain routinely. In the secondary, none of the safety's can match up in coverage on TE or RB let alone a WR anymore. Then, once the Front seven blow an assignment up front they are already in a poor position to make a play and take even worse recovery steps.

DEN used to give up big plays very infrequently until the last two years, because they played schemes that minimized big plays and had a MLB and safeties that could clean up obvious mistakes up front. Teams could drive on them, but they had to be very consistent play to play to score. Those players are gone and this lack of scheme just magnifies the errors instead of minimizing them.

3. You do realize chucking darts at a board in the draft defensively does not really count don't you? No scheme consistency DESTROYS player development and limits the effectiveness of any drafted player. The young DL have had to play three different fronts in 2 years with no ability to get meaningful reps game to game because they are changing the gap responsibilities every week! The LB's are not very consistent either because they keep rotating between fronts and the techniques are not the same as well. This is not a defense with savy, smart veteran players who can adapt on the fly anymore. When they commit to a scheme for 2 years running it will be the first time since 2001. The players deserve to be able to be proficient at what they do, not just stuck out there with a new approach each week that they are not capable of grasping.

Finally, Making a speed player play from a four point stance is absolutely ludicrous. Having DT's that are continually outplayed and not performing their responsibilities will wear out a team that has to compensate for their errors. Getting undersized, poor shedding LB's with a porous DT set kills their effectiveness and playmaking ability from their speed. Not having safeties that are fundamentally sound mentally and technically only makes it worse.

The sum of these parts is WORSE than their abilities. And, Shanahan is contributing to this the way people compensate for making mistakes in this country. He is throwing money and resources at the problem, without having a plan or a clue at how to Correct it. The last FA pickup that was any help whatsoever was Lynch in 2004. The last drafted Defensive player to make a contribution is the one dimensional Dumervil. That is absolutely a waste of time and money the last 4 years on the defensive side of the ball. And, the performances they have given the last year and a half more than accurately portray that.

[WolfpackGuy]

Pulled from a Rocky Mountain News article...

"Whether we make the play or not, at least we know what we're doing, how we're doing it, we've practiced it for a long time and go from there," Slowik said. "And then after that, we've got to get consistent in all areas - getting off blocks, hitting blocks, tackling, pass-rushing. Everything."

Wow, don't you get a warm and fuzzy feeling from that comment? Not only is Slowik terrible, he's BLIND!

[socalorado]

Considering that we're currently at square -4 because of Slowik, Id very much settle for square 1.

Agreed. Screw Slow-ik. Lets just go back to square 1 and start over.
Arent there any young Defensive minded guys out there that want as DC job?
For cryin out loud!

[socalorado]

Obviously I missed something that you caught this past off-season. Were there better Safety options out there to garner that kind of criticism? Were there contracts handed out for big money? Boss is the only one that got paid a respectable amount for an NFL player and he was playing up to his contract level (above average) before his injury.

Show me the moves that could've been made differently this past off-season, and I'll even give you the benefit of hindsight.

Madieu Williams was given a HUGE contract by MIN.
He is a very good cover FS. He also is currently collecting his HUGE salary on IR for the year.
I would have loved it if DEN had made a run at him, but not for 30 million!
Other than that, not alot.

[TheReverend]

1. Self-congratulation occurs when you nail it. This is and has been this teams biggest and most glaring weakness in the Shanahan era. No defensive Identity, no scheme consistency, no drafting players that can play a specific assignment = no progress defensively.

2. Ask yourself this question, Why are the Titans able to play that scheme and DEN does not have a freakin chance? It starts with a dominant set of DT's and 2 very good to great DE's in Kearse and Vanden Bosch. Kyle does not play last night and His backup gets hurt on the opening kickoff and their DL is not as effective as they have been against the Colts, yet they are still more than solid. Bates Scheme really works when you have a dominant DL, which TEN has.

Plus, Who the F cares about fans screaming, 95% have zero clue what actually happens on any given play, but can only see the results. And, you are very wrong on the big plays. There is not one error occuring, there are multiple errors occuring. Mostly it starts with the DT's not holding their gaps in the running game and in the passing game it is not having an inside push as usual. From there, the LB's are overrunning the play and getting walled off on contain routinely. In the secondary, none of the safety's can match up in coverage on TE or RB let alone a WR anymore. Then, once the Front seven blow an assignment up front they are already in a poor position to make a play and take even worse recovery steps.

DEN used to give up big plays very infrequently until the last two years, because they played schemes that minimized big plays and had a MLB and safeties that could clean up obvious mistakes up front. Teams could drive on them, but they had to be very consistent play to play to score. Those players are gone and this lack of scheme just magnifies the errors instead of minimizing them.

3. You do realize chucking darts at a board in the draft defensively does not really count don't you? No scheme consistency DESTROYS player development and limits the effectiveness of any drafted player. The young DL have had to play three different fronts in 2 years with no ability to get meaningful reps game to game because they are changing the gap responsibilities every week! The LB's are not very consistent either because they keep rotating between fronts and the techniques are not the same as well. This is not a defense with savy, smart veteran players who can adapt on the fly anymore. When they commit to a scheme for 2 years running it will be the first time since 2001. The players deserve to be able to be proficient at what they do, not just stuck out there with a new approach each week that they are not capable of grasping.

Finally, Making a speed player play from a four point stance is absolutely ludicrous. Having DT's that are continually outplayed and not performing their responsibilities will wear out a team that has to compensate for their errors. Getting undersized, poor shedding LB's with a porous DT set kills their effectiveness and playmaking ability from their speed. Not having safeties that are fundamentally sound mentally and technically only makes it worse.

The sum of these parts is WORSE than their abilities. And, Shanahan is contributing to this the way people compensate for making mistakes in this country. He is throwing money and resources at the problem, without having a plan or a clue at how to Correct it. The last FA pickup that was any help whatsoever was Lynch in 2004. The last drafted Defensive player to make a contribution is the one dimensional Dumervil. That is absolutely a waste of time and money the last 4 years on the defensive side of the ball. And, the performances they have given the last year and a half more than accurately portray that.

Great post, all in all, and the two sections in bold are what I feel are the most accurate and telling statements you can make on the defense. I don't have the time to make the response a post like this deserves at the moment, but I'll throw some cliffs notes back in response:

Re the big plays. Let's use NE as a microcosm. One situation where Lowry has the carrier in the backfield, but instead of breaking his hips down and making the play/stringing the play out, he over runs it and looks stupid. Moss's screen pass for a TD, where if one player attacks a proper ****ing shoulder and sheds a block, it's for minimal/no gain. The opportunities are there to solidify the unit... it's just missing the intensity to make the play.

Re the intermediate passing game. This is definitely something I want to take a significantly closer look at when the season ends, if my priorities aren't somewhere else. And you're right that on these 3 steps if pressure is going to come, it's gotta come from the middle, but unless you have an Albert Haynesworth or Shaun Rogers, it's not gonna happen without a blitz. This is the area concerning me the most... that and the utter lack of turnovers against even conservative offenses.

Re the draft. Good athletes AND football players should be able to excel from system to system. A guy like Shawn Merriman should be able to put his hand in the dirt and still bring the pressure. A guy like Ray Lewis can (and has) been dominant from system to system. I agree with you that establishing a system can bring incredible value on the back end of the draft, but let's not look at the 2007 draft as such a failure. Gaines Adams, Jamaal Anderson (think that's his name? atlanta), Patrick Willis... these were the top shelf guys that could've really done if for Denver, but were unattainable. Realistically Denver had shots at the players they had targeted in Timmons, Harrell and Moss. As slow as Moss is developing, Timmons and Harrell have been just as frustrating. Does that mean Pittsburgh and Green Bay are just throwing darts at the draft board?

Basically, I agree with so much of what you've said. And I'd love to establish a defensive identity... but we need to find one that's functional first. Maybe they need to place an emphasis on smarter players. Maybe they need to spend more time coaching situational awareness. Maybe they need to preach about sacrifice. Maybe they need to kick them in the balls repeatedly until they sprout a pair and play with attitude.

But in the end, players need to make their reads and play football. These guys are professionals and learning new keys week to week and playing them isn't much to ask for their payday. The offense was completely inept Monday night, but that hardly warrants quitting in the third quarter.

[BroncoBen]

Give me a Break... these players are suppose to be professionals. You have to be the best of the best when you get to this level. Some of these guys act like primadonnas and don't want to hit or tackle.

I agree with new coach Mike Singletary the players have to have Accountability. Honesty. Action.

Some of the Bronco players don't have this.

[SpiritGuy]

A character named Oscar Rogers recently unveiled on Saturday Night Live purports to be an alleged financial expert.

He rails against the Wall Street crisis, listing the litany of problems and punctuating each batch of bad news with an impassioned "Fix it!"

Bob Slowik likely can relate, though the issues he faces as the Broncos' defensive coordinator are in the black-and-white of the NFL statistics, not the Financial Times.

And while complaining bitterly, a la the fictional money man, might be cathartic, it doesn't solve the mess.

And that mess won't be any easier to clean up before Sunday's game with the Miami Dolphins (3-4) at Invesco Field at Mile High (2:05 p.m., CBS 4) with a long-term injury to cornerback Champ Bailey and a season-ending knee issue for linebacker Boss Bailey.

Even while those two were at least partially in the lineup, the Broncos defense accumulated a No. 31 ranking in rushing yards per attempt (5.4), No. 30 rankings in total yards allowed (394.6), yards per play (6.2) and rushing yards allowed (154.6), No. 29 rankings in interceptions (two) and points per game (27.9), a No. 28 in net passing yards (240) and a tie for No. 28 in first downs per game (20.9), a No. 23 in net yards per pass play (7.3) and a No. 21 in third-down efficiency (41.6 percent).

Fix it? It's easier said than done.

'Little out of sorts'

"What happens when you had or have a versatile scheme, if things don't go well, it's always a case of not being in rhythm with the offense. So you get a little out of sorts," Slowik said Monday as the Broncos resumed practice after a four-day break. "And it's the same thing, if, for example, you're in the same call and not having that success. Your first reaction is you need more ammunition and can't just line up in the same thing. So it's somewhere in between.

"In the end, all of that lies on my shoulders. I've got to find something that the guys are comfortable with executing and still have enough mix to get the job done."

What that likely means for the short term is scaling back in order to get consistent play calls in which the defensive players feel confident.

"Whether we make the play or not, at least we know what we're doing, how we're doing it, we've practiced it for a long time and go from there," Slowik said. "And then after that, we've got to get consistent in all areas - getting off blocks, hitting blocks, tackling, pass-rushing. Everything."

The 3-4 has been effective in generating pressure, so it won't be ditched completely.

"It's not being thrown out," Slowik insisted.

But, overall, the breadth of calls might be pared to give the defense a chance to gain some equilibrium after the poor start.

"We've got to cut down the amount of what we're doing," Slowik said. "That's the easiest way of saying it."

The 3-4 front, which still includes eight-man principles, was installed as late as Week 2. The 4-3 had been the core philosophy starting in the offseason.

Less 3-4 likely on horizon

Slowik wouldn't give away any game-planning secrets. But reading between the lines, the Broncos might back off the 3-4 some and, until there's a sense the players can handle more, stress the defense they know best and have practiced the most.

"There's a little more confidence in knowing what to do - language, familiarity, maybe with some of our other schemes," Slowik said.

The last time the Broncos were in action, before the bye weekend, they were shredded by New England for 41 points. Matt Cassel, subbing for Tom Brady, had his best game as a pro, recording a 75 percent completion rate, three touchdown passes and no interceptions.

The Patriots rushed for 257 yards, the highest total Denver has allowed since Green Bay rushed for 262 in the 2003 season finale.

And the comments after that Patriots game underscored the ongoing issues.

Champ Bailey was disgusted by the effort. Fellow captain D.J. Williams lamented the group's lack of identity, in terms of fronts and philosophy. Ebenezer Ekuban, another team leader, mentioned the sloppy tackling and gap-control issues that continue to rear their head.

Opponents' four highest rushing totals have come in the past four games. Their completion rates have been 81 percent, 75, 72, 74 and 75 in the past five contests.

And into town comes a Dolphins team seemingly rejuvenated under coach Tony Sparano and the Bill Parcells regime.

Slowik and the rest of the Broncos staff spent the bye week breaking down the first seven games and came out of those sessions intent on re-emphasizing to the players the defense is built to be an eight-man front whose priority is stopping the run while trying to generate pass rush and coverage behind it the best way possible.

"That part has never changed," Slowik said. "We may have not executed it as well in certain aspects of the two fronts, and that's where there's a little of that discomfort."

Memories of 2007

The situation in which the Broncos find themselves appears to have some parallels to the 2007 season.

That team was gashed by the run early with Jim Bates as coordinator, then went to more eight-man principles at the bye. Players openly talked about being confused after Bates' exit and supposedly were thrilled by how simplified things had become under Slowik this offseason.

Then, after the addition of the 3-4, there again was talk about missed assignments and gap control.

"Yeah, I would say I'm surprised at that," Slowik said.

Middle linebacker Nate Webster said against the Patriots, "guys were like, 'Maybe we should get out of this (call), maybe we should run this,' " while the game spiraled out of hand.

But after film study, he now believes the issue solely was execution.

"As players we're accountable for a lot of this," Webster said. "Usually they blame the coordinator, but we watch the film, and there was nothing wrong with those calls."

Whatever the game plan, he said, it's on the defensive players to be able to handle what's being asked of them, scaled back or not. But he believes returning to fundamentals this week appears to be a solid idea.

Said Webster: "Once we put in whatever we're putting in, now's the time to grow up - fast."

found here/ (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/oct/27/short-term-fix-is-to-simplify-broncos-defense/)

[TonyR]

...Were there better Safety options out there to garner that kind of criticism?...
...Show me the moves that could've been made differently this past off-season, and I'll even give you the benefit of hindsight...

You're correct that there were not a lot of options at S in FA. But what I'm not clear on is why people like you are so hell bent on apologizing for Shanahan on the current state of this defense. It's his poor management that has us in this current predicament. Several years of poor drafting, poor FA, and poor coaching choices. If we'd have drafted well from '02-'06 we wouldn't be scrambling for scraps in the FA market for starting safties, right? Our misses in the draft and FA over the past several years our almost too many to list. The proof is right there on your TV every Sunday.

[gyldenlove]

People look at the Patriots and Ravens defenses and are very jealous. Look at all of the things they can do! They can play a 4-3, they can play a 3-4. They can tailor their defense to maximize matchups and confuse the offense. Look at Adalius Thomas, he plays at least 3 different positions, as a 3-4 OLB, 3-4 ILB, 4-3 OLB, and he could see time as a 4-3 DE. The only 'identity' they have is as a versatile defense, able to beat the offense in many ways.

Last year, Bates had a very definite system. We made trades, drafted players, and signed FA's to fit his scheme. We were committed to his scheme. But we didn't have enough of the right players for it, so rather than take our lumps and growing pains, we cut him loose and switched to Slowick, who built a defense to tailor to our players' abilities.

This year, Slowick is doing the same thing. He is switching up the defense to tailor it to our opponent. Playing a pass heavy team? Run a 3-4 to disguise blitz packages. Playing a run heavy team? 8 in the box, with only the biggest boys activated on the d-line. It makes sense. This could be our 'identity' just as much as it is the Patriots' or Ravens' identity. The difference in the effectiveness of our defense and theirs is that they simply have better players.

The Patriots and Ravens both play a very traditional defensive line with 3 big defensive linemen who play 2 gap and stop the run while getting situational pressure. The Patriots use 4 very traditional linebackers and a number of very complicated blitz schemes to get them into the backfield along with a lot of zone plays. The Ravens have Suggs who is a hybrid DE/OLB who rushes the passer about the half the time and drops into coverage about half the time, not unlike Merriman or Ware and 3 traditional linebackers with Scott and Lewis essentially playing ILBs and one WLB (who used to be Adalius Thomas who is now playing the same position with the Patriots).

With Bates we switched away from his scheme after a few games because we got owned so bad, it didn't help any.

Slowicks system is not much of a system the way I see it, he wants to run a vanilla 4-3 with 1 gap defensive linemen who seem to be asked to contain the run and plug gaps and then rely on blitzing linebackers to apply pressure. The only times we have been getting consistent pressure is when we blitz heavily or when we drop containment and rush from the outside, I have yet to see a single stunt rush this year.

The problem of course with dropping containment is that our linebackers (especially Webster) is easily blocked out of the play and doesn't react well or tackle well so we end up getting gashed through the middle when the offense catches on.

My idea is to get a young guy from college, someone who coaches a solid 4-3 D and install him as the DC. We move Slowick back to DB coach which he is good at and we fire every other defensive coach we have.

We get a new DT for the rotation to keep Robertson and Thomas fresh, we get a MLB and at least one S. I think we can make do with what we have at DE, I would prefer to move Kenny Peterson back out to DE and have him, Ekuban and Crowder duke it out for starting position, with 3 big starting defensive linemen we can afford to mix it up a lot with Moss and Dumervil who should play about 40-50% of the snaps each, but not together.

[rastaman]

Yep Coyer :pimp:

Denver has the personnel to play in Coyer type scheme right now IMHO.

[broncsyanks]

One thing is for sure we aren't tacklers.

i couldnt agree more with this comment

[TheReverend]

You're correct that there were not a lot of options at S in FA. But what I'm not clear on is why people like you are so hell bent on apologizing for Shanahan on the current state of this defense. It's his poor management that has us in this current predicament. Several years of poor drafting, poor FA, and poor coaching choices. If we'd have drafted well from '02-'06 we wouldn't be scrambling for scraps in the FA market for starting safties, right? Our misses in the draft and FA over the past several years our almost too many to list. The proof is right there on your TV every Sunday.

Shanahan didn't break Al Wilson's neck, or end Courtney's career in a similar fashion. If he gets any personnel criticism when it comes to handling the top shelf defensive talent we've had this decade, he deserves blame for letting Pryce leave town. Other than that it's all speculation as to how much was Mike, how much Sunquist, and how much defensive coaches player evaluations.

[TonyR]

Shanahan didn't break Al Wilson's neck, or end Courtney's career in a similar fashion. If he gets any personnel criticism when it comes to handling the top shelf defensive talent we've had this decade, he deserves blame for letting Pryce leave town. Other than that it's all speculation as to how much was Mike, how much Sunquist, and how much defensive coaches player evaluations.

How deep is your well of excuses? Al Wilson is one player, and our problems are much larger than one player. Courtney Brown was damaged goods when we signed him. He was a desperation signing much like Robertson.

And have you read this? http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Extras/2008/recapintro.htm

[Mediator12]

Shanahan didn't break Al Wilson's neck, or end Courtney's career in a similar fashion. If he gets any personnel criticism when it comes to handling the top shelf defensive talent we've had this decade, he deserves blame for letting Pryce leave town. Other than that it's all speculation as to how much was Mike, how much Sunquist, and how much defensive coaches player evaluations.

Well, to be as accurate as possible, he did bring in a ton of risky FA DL in the last 10 years. The only ones who really worked out were Ted Washington (1 year rental), Chester Mcglockton (2 years), and The little Known Bertrand Berry at the time. He has thrown darts at the board on his DL acquisitions, with Trevor Pryce, Montae Reagor, Reggie Hayward, and Elvis Dumervil being the only drafted players to be league average or better in that time as well. He acquires Players he likes, not players that fit what DEN does. In my mind, its his personnel philosophy that has been to blame for much of the defensive woes.

As for Al Wilson, He deteriorated quickly due to not getting protected inside with quality DT's. The hype guys Urlacher and Ray Lewis struggled horribly in the years they did not have elite DT's protecting them. So much so, that both teams immediately procured top 10 DT's in the draft the next year. Lewis has probably the best DT tandem in the league protecting him IMHO in Kelly Gregg and Haloti Ngata. Plus Add Pryce as a Pass rusher on apssing downs. Lewis got Tommie Harris and then a decent rotation next to him each year including Dusty Devoracek who has been very good this year. For all the hype around those 2 guys, Wilson Was better in those years because he did so much with less to protect him. Ironic as hell that his injury was from Gerrard Warren Yikes!

[WolfpackGuy]

And have you read this?http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Extras/2008/recapintro.htm

WOW, a lot of misses/no longer with the team/no longer in the league on that list.

[TheReverend]

Well, to be as accurate as possible, he did bring in a ton of risky FA DL in the last 10 years. The only ones who really worked out were Ted Washington (1 year rental), Chester Mcglockton (2 years), and The little Known Bertrand Berry at the time. He has thrown darts at the board on his DL acquisitions, with Trevor Pryce, Montae Reagor, Reggie Hayward, and Elvis Dumervil being the only drafted players to be league average or better in that time as well. He acquires Players he likes, not players that fit what DEN does. In my mind, its his personnel philosophy that has been to blame for much of the defensive woes.

As for Al Wilson, He deteriorated quickly due to not getting protected inside with quality DT's. The hype guys Urlacher and Ray Lewis struggled horribly in the years they did not have elite DT's protecting them. So much so, that both teams immediately procured top 10 DT's in the draft the next year. Lewis has probably the best DT tandem in the league protecting him IMHO in Kelly Gregg and Haloti Ngata. Plus Add Pryce as a Pass rusher on apssing downs. Lewis got Tommie Harris and then a decent rotation next to him each year including Dusty Devoracek who has been very good this year. For all the hype around those 2 guys, Wilson Was better in those years because he did so much with less to protect him. Ironic as hell that his injury was from Gerrard Warren Yikes!

You didn't even respond to the main theme of the post!

How much was Mike, how much was Ted and how much was defensive coaches evaluations?

[TonyR]

How much was Mike, how much was Ted and how much was defensive coaches evaluations?

Doesn't matter. Shanahan is The Decider. He either made, or signed off on, every decision that was made.

[TonyR]

In my mind, its his personnel philosophy that has been to blame for much of the defensive woes.


It's not just in your mind. It's reality.

[TheReverend]

Doesn't matter. Shanahan is The Decider. He either made, or signed off on, every decision that was made.

It matters a substantial amount, actually.

[Mediator12]

You didn't even respond to the main theme of the post!

How much was Mike, how much was Ted and how much was defensive coaches evaluations?

Well, because I have already told you that and I thought you remembered ^5

One person dictates the philosophy, all the rest handle the details of getting it done. Care to guess who that is ;)

[TheReverend]

Well, because I have already told you that and I thought you remembered ^5

One person dictates the philosophy, all the rest handle the details of getting it done. Care to guess who that is ;)

I call bull**** on your first sentence. I remember the discussion abruptly ending when I asked it, actually.

Wait... so we have a philosophy but not an identity? :spit:

[Mediator12]

I call bull**** on your first sentence. I remember the discussion abruptly ending when I asked it, actually.

Wait... so we have a philosophy but not an identity? :spit:

Yeah, the philosophy goes like this:

First, get who _______ blank likes and do it right now.

Second, make it work.

Fairly easy to base a scheme and playbook around right LOL

[TheReverend]

Yeah, the philosophy goes like this:

First, get who _______ blank likes and do it right now.

Second, make it work.

Fairly easy to base a scheme and playbook around right LOL

It's working in Arizona :spit:

By the way, they have fans screaming about Okeafor and Rolle playing out of position, just like mobs screaming over DJ, only those are much more legitimate definitions of "out of position"