Help me to understand how 40% who don’t pay income taxes should get a rebate check?

[Bob]

Obama talks about 95% of the population will get a tax cut, well that sounds great, but if 40% get a tax break who did not pay income taxes, wouldn’t that be more like a welfare check? If the Dems get more folks dependent on the government, I guess that increases their base. So the rich don’t pay their full share? What do the rich pay in America compared to other countries around the world? (from non-blog sources please LA.) If corporate taxes are second highest in the industrialized world, are they not paying their full-share?

Oh, isn’t it great that another non-helpful stimulus package is coming, thanks to Dems and Repubs. That money if printed will weaken the dollar. I’m glad the dollar has been holding its own lately, but at this rate we headed to 1923 Germany.

[ak1971]

Obama talks about 95% of the population will get a tax cut, well that sounds great, but if 40% get a tax break who did not pay income taxes, wouldn’t that be more like a welfare check? If the Dems get more folks dependent on the government, I guess that increases their base. So the rich don’t pay their full share? What do the rich pay in America compared to other countries around the world? (from non-blog sources please LA.) If corporate taxes are second highest in the industrialized world, are they not paying their full-share?

Oh, isn’t it great that another non-helpful stimulus package is coming, thanks to Dems and Repubs. That money if printed will weaken the dollar. I’m glad the dollar has been holding its own lately, but at this rate we headed to 1923 Germany.

please give me another stimulus check. I'm on the baja gold wagon now.

[Denver Crush]

please give me another stimulus check. I'm on the baja gold wagon now.

I was thinking the same thing.:thumbs: Ive been buying gold like crazy.

[Bob]

I just worry that is how we have become -- with our hand out-stretched to Big Brother who we are dependent on, and who we look to for our salvation.

[ak1971]

I was thinking the same thing.:thumbs: Ive been buying gold like crazy.

we are seeing 2002 levels now.
You cant throw cash out of helicopters and not expect inflation.

[Bob]

I was thinking the same thing.:thumbs: Ive been buying gold like crazy.

Good choice, silver coins actually make more sense in my mind, as teh dollar tanks what will folks use for currency -- they will trade essentials, and other things of intrinsic value -- Not sure if one could part with gold as easily in day-to-day dealings.... you are still thinking the dollar will survive?

[Beantown Bronco]

Obama talks about 95% of the population will get a tax cut

You're reading it wrong I think. I believe it's 95% of the "working" population that would get a tax cut.....not 95% of the "total" population. So people who don't work and don't pay income taxes won't get a rebate check.

[OrangeDoofus]

If you can get an exact quote that would help.

What I remember is that he didn't say "95% of Americans will get a tax cut" but instead "95% of Americans won't have their taxes increased", so that includes people who get tax cuts and people whose taxes stay the same. And people who pay no tax now will (I assume) still pay no tax under Obama's plan.

I'm just going by what I remember him saying, so if you have a reference to a direct quote, share it. If he is saying that people who pay no taxes should get a rebate, then I agree that's really stupid. (Even from a liberal point of view, it's dumb to give people a reason not to work.)

[NaptownChief]

"A Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only last until the citizens discover they can vote themselves largesse out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that the Democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy, to be followed by a dictatorship, and then a monarchy."





"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."

Winston Churchill (1903)




You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot further the brotherhood of many by encouraging class hatred. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn. You cannot build character and courage by taking away mans initiative and independence. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.

Abraham Lincoln

[ak1971]

Good choice, silver coins actually make more sense in my mind, as teh dollar tanks what will folks use for currency -- they will trade essentials, and other things of intrinsic value -- Not sure if one could part with gold as easily in day-to-day dealings.... you are still thinking the dollar will survive?

yes the dollar will still survive, I may be on the gold train right now, but will switch out when it peaks..

[OrangeDoofus]

You're reading it wrong I think. I believe it's 95% of the "working" population that would get a tax cut.....not 95% of the "total" population. So people who don't work and don't pay income taxes won't get a rebate check.

That might be it too. You have to be really careful about getting people's words correct (especially politicians) because even a small change in words can make a big difference.

[NaptownChief]

but will switch out when it peaks..


And where did you find that crystal ball?

[Denver Crush]

Good choice, silver coins actually make more sense in my mind, as teh dollar tanks what will folks use for currency -- they will trade essentials, and other things of intrinsic value -- Not sure if one could part with gold as easily in day-to-day dealings.... you are still thinking the dollar will survive?

Yeah I bought some silver coins as well. I figured I might as well broaden my portfolio. :pimp:
I dont know about the dollar surviving, if it does fail, something will surely replace it.

[ak1971]

And where did you find that crystal ball?

I wish.. I got in too early on the 'rebound' and have been getting my ass handed to me in the past couple weeks. I think this time next year though will be the time to bail with some profits.

[Garcia Bronco]

Obama talks about 95% of the population will get a tax cut, well that sounds great, but if 40% get a tax break who did not pay income taxes, wouldn’t that be more like a welfare check? If the Dems get more folks dependent on the government, I guess that increases their base. So the rich don’t pay their full share? What do the rich pay in America compared to other countries around the world? (from non-blog sources please LA.) If corporate taxes are second highest in the industrialized world, are they not paying their full-share?

Oh, isn’t it great that another non-helpful stimulus package is coming, thanks to Dems and Repubs. That money if printed will weaken the dollar. I’m glad the dollar has been holding its own lately, but at this rate we headed to 1923 Germany.

If Obama and Congress creates a tax plan that does this they'll be out of office Congressionally speaking 4 years.

[Garcia Bronco]

"A Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only last until the citizens discover they can vote themselves largesse out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that the Democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy, to be followed by a dictatorship, and then a monarchy."





"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."

Winston Churchill (1903)




You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot further the brotherhood of many by encouraging class hatred. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn. You cannot build character and courage by taking away mans initiative and independence. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.

Abraham Lincoln

Goo dWork!

[ak1971]

these economic stimulus checks are bs. All this stuff is doing is just pro longing the problem.

[barryr]

Obama says he wants to spread the wealth to even those that don't pay taxes and at the same time, we're to believe this isn't welfare and a socialistic mindset that decides punishing those that succeed is fair. Oh, ok.

[Old Dude]

We're already giving $700 billion in welfare checks to Wall Street.

[Paladin]

Yeah. I wonder if that 40% includes the corporations that don't pay taxes.

[elsid13]

these economic stimulus checks are bs. All this stuff is doing is just pro longing the problem.

The stimulus checsk do exact what they were designed to do. Make voters feel like thier representatives care.

If they want to stimulate the economy Congress should look at major infrastructure projects because on average a Fed dollar spent in local area generates about 3 dollars of externally action. But of course this Keynesian approach will take 9 to 13 months to be effective. The check do nothing for the economy.

[Rigs11]

Yeah. I wonder if that 40% includes the corporations that don't pay taxes.
No it includes the CEO's that make millions when their actions bankrupt their companies. It also includes the bills of these companies when they spend 400,000 on spa treatments9AIG).No company oversight right?Free market! the repub way. Funny how repubs always point to socialism when we wanna give the middle class tax breaks or healthcare yet they fully support the spending of billions for wars in OTHER countries and nation building.The repub way!

[barryr]

This spread the wealth approach will do a great job of eliminating jobs, but that's beside the point. Getting the rich is more important and will make the jobless feel so much better as they get their unemployment checks. WHEW!

[ak1971]

The stimulus checsk do exact what they were designed to do. Make voters feel like thier representatives care.

If they want to stimulate the economy Congress should look at major infrastructure projects because on average a Fed dollar spent in local area generates about 3 dollars of externally action. But of course this Keynesian approach will take 9 to 13 months to be effective. The check do nothing for the economy.

Did you listen to any of the hearings on the bailout? Keynesian economics may as well be Klingon to some of these idiots. They sure as hell would have no idea.

[elsid13]

Did you listen to any of the hearings on the bailout? Keynesian economics may as well be Klingon to some of these idiots. They sure as hell would have no idea.

I caught very little of the hearing because of my work. But remember 95% of the members of Congress are Lawyers and have little to no experience with economics or execution of work. What makes it worse is the staffers think they are smarter then really are and depend to much on google to get answers.

[Rigs11]

Mcsame wants the government to spend 300 billion in tax dollars to buy out mortgages in foreclosure.Where is your outrage at that Bob?That's not spreading the wealth?that's not socialism?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27336640/

[ak1971]

I caught very little of the hearing because of my work. But remember 95% of the members of Congress are Lawyers and have little to no experience with economics or execution of work. What makes it worse is the staffers think they are smarter then really are and depend to much on google to get answers.


and another thing..why they hell hasnt Greenspan just gone away!

[elsid13]

and another thing..why they hell hasnt Greenspan just gone away!

Because he well respected and has a lot of friends in DC.

[Bronco Bob]

Obama talks about 95% of the population will get a tax cut, well that sounds great, but if 40% get a tax break who did not pay income taxes, wouldn’t that be more like a welfare check?

The tax cuts are for 95% of working people and their families.
So a single worker would get a $500 tax cut, and a working couple
would get a $1000 tax cut.

http://www.barackobama.com/taxes/

[Bronco Bob]

If you can get an exact quote that would help.

What I remember is that he didn't say "95% of Americans will get a tax cut" but instead "95% of Americans won't have their taxes increased", so that includes people who get tax cuts and people whose taxes stay the same. And people who pay no tax now will (I assume) still pay no tax under Obama's plan.

I'm just going by what I remember him saying, so if you have a reference to a direct quote, share it. If he is saying that people who pay no taxes should get a rebate, then I agree that's really stupid. (Even from a liberal point of view, it's dumb to give people a reason not to work.)


Obama’s Comprehensive Tax Policy Plan for America will:

* Cut taxes for 95 percent of workers and their families with a tax cut of $500 for workers or $1,000 for working couples.
* Provide generous tax cuts for low- and middle-income seniors, homeowners, the uninsured, and families sending
a child to college or looking to save and accumulate wealth.
* Eliminate capital gains taxes for small businesses, cut corporate taxes for firms that invest and create jobs in
the United States, and provide tax credits to reduce the cost of healthcare and to reward investments in innovation.
* Dramatically simplify taxes by consolidating existing tax credits, eliminating the need for millions of senior citizens to file tax forms,
and enabling as many as 40 million middle-class Americans to do their own taxes in less than five minutes without an accountant.

Under the Obama Plan:

* Middle class families will see their taxes cut – and no family making less than $250,000 will see their taxes increase.
The typical middle class family will receive well over $1,000 in tax relief under the Obama plan, and will pay tax rates
that are 20% lower than they faced under President Reagan. According to the Tax Policy Center,
the Obama plan provides three times as much tax relief for middle class families as the McCain plan.
* Families making more than $250,000 will pay either the same or lower tax rates than they paid in the 1990s.
Obama will ask the wealthiest 2% of families to give back a portion of the tax cuts they have received over the past eight years
to ensure we are restoring fairness and returning to fiscal responsibility. But no family will pay higher tax rates than they
would have paid in the 1990s. In fact, dividend rates would be 39 percent lower than what President Bush proposed in his 2001 tax cut.
* Obama’s plan will cut taxes overall, reducing revenues to below the levels that prevailed under Ronald Reagan
(less than 18.2 percent of GDP). The Obama tax plan is a net tax cut – his tax relief for middle class families is larger than
the revenue raised by his tax changes for families over $250,000. Coupled with his commitment to cut unnecessary spending,
Obama will pay for this tax relief while bringing down the budget deficit.

http://www.barackobama.com/taxes/

[gunns]

That might be it too. You have to be really careful about getting people's words correct (especially politicians) because even a small change in words can make a big difference.

What I heard is 95% of American FAMILIES. When you include single people it goes down to 81% for the tax cut.

The 40% that don't pay taxes, does that include people on Social Security, unemployment, and those that do work but their low pay gets all the taxes they paid during the year back to them at tax time?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

What do the rich pay in America compared to other countries around the world? (from non-blog sources please LA.)

"Well, I had hoped so because Americans are tired of the sound bite, the back and forth, the cable monsters, the, you know, the continuous, and the blogosphere."

- John McCain

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/07/19/mccain_takes_on_the_cable_mons.html

http://blog.prospect.org/blog/ezraklein/scarymccaincrop.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."


This just in: Trickle-down doesn't work - greed is not good. :welcome:

[cutthemdown]

What I heard is 95% of American FAMILIES. When you include single people it goes down to 81% for the tax cut.

The 40% that don't pay taxes, does that include people on Social Security, unemployment, and those that do work but their low pay gets all the taxes they paid during the year back to them at tax time?

single people with no kids don't matter that's why.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

<center> http://www.bartcop.com/next-captain-around.jpg
</center>

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

<center> http://www.bartcop.com/mccain-w-socialist.jpg
</center>

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

<center> http://www.bartcop.com/obama-robin-hood.jpg
</center>

[Bob]

We're already giving $700 billion in welfare checks to Wall Street.

Yes, thanks to a Socialist Bush, and Congress -- so do we agree that corperate welfare rewards stupid choices?

The same principle may just apply to individuals as well.

All I see if government knee jerking to react attempting to "fix it," but I believe "they" are the ones who in large measure created the problem -- the markets are simular to a natural force -- its is impossible to control nature, and greed, you can chanel it maybe, but it is the hieght of arrogance to think that we can create our own market rules, and live outside them -- you print too much money the dollar will tank -- it it has to crash at this point -- sorry, I wish it was not going to happen, but it is going to over the next few years. You put on price caps as inflation goes up -- the market will naturally respond by those that manufacture to produce less of that item thereby causing shortages -- that will come next, just watch.

Banks have been reckless, but what started this? I think greed had a role, but so did artificial regulation/Socialism of the banking market -- when banks were called to the carpet for not loaning to poor folks and were told they were red-lining, and when Fannie Mae, and Freddy Mac gave out subprime loans to a larger percentage of folks (which happened through legislation) -- that injected more money into the housing market guys -- so far all Socialism -- now things shift -- other banks saw there was money to be made, and with housing going up, jumped on board to get a piece -- but again at the core of this crazy train launch was lending to those who had no business getting the loans they were getting -- not becuase they were minorities, but because of bad credit, and smaller incomes -- it may have not felt "fair" at the time to some that the American dream was out of reach for some folks, and it was sad, but I predict that many more will not get to have a part of the American dream -- now that dream will be out of reach for Minorities and whites with good jobs, not to mention reducing the chances the poor could get a loan for an education to get out of the cycle of poverty.

To me it looks like trickle up poverty.

[Bob]

<center> http://www.bartcop.com/obama-robin-hood.jpg
</center>

Cute buttons... How damn true -- stealing from the rich-- and investing it various black-holes....

[Bob]

Yeah. I wonder if that 40% includes the corporations that don't pay taxes.

You dont know what the hell you are talking about -- businesses pay a hell of a lot!!! We have the second highest corperate taxes in the industrialized world!!! You tax them more they go over seas (the ones that are big enough.)

Its ok to like Obama's thoughts on social issues, those things can be debated, but the percentage paid by business is already too much -- countries that lower tax rates for business create more jobs -- states that tax the hell out of them leave -- see NY and Cal, while Texas brings in jobs when the businesses move there.

Business are not evil (unless you were living in prosperous USSR circa 1984) jobs are a good thing, giving welfare checks does not make anyone richer (long term.)

[Bob]

We're already giving $700 billion in welfare checks to Wall Street.

850 billion and much more to come...

[Bob]

No it includes the CEO's that make millions when their actions bankrupt their companies. It also includes the bills of these companies when they spend 400,000 on spa treatments9AIG).No company oversight right?Free market! the repub way. Funny how repubs always point to socialism when we wanna give the middle class tax breaks or healthcare yet they fully support the spending of billions for wars in OTHER countries and nation building.The repub way!

Maybe some Republicans, but not Conservatives...

Just wish we could clone Ron Paul.

Most of the noise against the bailout of Walstreet came from Repubs though -- just for the record --you idiot partisan -- how many Dems voted against it??? Obama and McCain both voted for it -- in fact after the 700 billion arrived they porked it up with 150 billion of additional spending.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Cute buttons... How damn true -- stealing from the rich-- and investing it various black-holes....

In your Orwellian parallel universe, every president before Reagan was a flaming socialist, if you consider the tax rates on the top 5%.

[Bob]

Mcsame wants the government to spend 300 billion in tax dollars to buy out mortgages in foreclosure.Where is your outrage at that Bob?That's not spreading the wealth?that's not socialism?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27336640/

Its all bad -- it is socialism, Bushy is in it thick as well -- so there you go. Voting in November is like choosing between Lenin and Stalin, but go ahead and keep assuming that I cant say a bad thing against McCain -- if I am lucky he would be like a JFK Dem. Right now the only thing he has going for him is that he might be the lesser of two evils -- you like Obama's redistribution of poverty plan -- or all you allowed to speak against the Chosen One? If you dont like it, then you post it.

If one really wants less spending there is not anyone who can win this election cycle, I'm just trying to decide how quickly I want to see the system crash.

[Bob]

The tax cuts are for 95% of working people and their families.
So a single worker would get a $500 tax cut, and a working couple
would get a $1000 tax cut.

http://www.barackobama.com/taxes/

Is that before or after he recends the Bush tax cuts?

[ak1971]

-- you print too much money the dollar will tank -- it it has to crash at this point -- .[/B]

I agree 100%
Im pretty sure we could see DOW sub 6000 in the next few years at this point too.

[Bob]

I agree 100%
Im pretty sure we could see DOW sub 6000 in the next few years at this point too.

By April 2009 ---I will bet you a McRibb

[ak1971]

By April 2009 ---I will bet you a McRibb

I still think we rally in to most of 09..then bang..but hell Im wrong most of the time.. I'd be a great financial advisor..'just do exactly what Im not doing and you will make money'

[enjolras]

It's 95% of taxpayers, not families. Almost exactly 5% of taxpayers make over $250,000 in taxable income.

[gunns]

You dont know what the hell you are talking about -- businesses pay a hell of a lot!!! We have the second highest corperate taxes in the industrialized world!!! You tax them more they go over seas (the ones that are big enough.)

Its ok to like Obama's thoughts on social issues, those things can be debated, but the percentage paid by business is already too much -- countries that lower tax rates for business create more jobs -- states that tax the hell out of them leave -- see NY and Cal, while Texas brings in jobs when the businesses move there.

Business are not evil (unless you were living in prosperous USSR circa 1984) jobs are a good thing, giving welfare checks does not make anyone richer (long term.)

Ok, this post confuses me. Yes they have the largest tax percentage but they only pay about 31% of that percentage. And we keep hearing how we can't make them pay more because they create the jobs. Yet we just had a President who gave the nicest cut to them yet one of the lowest creation of jobs throughout his 8 years. :kiddingme

[gunns]

It's 95% of taxpayers, not families. Almost exactly 5% of taxpayers make over $250,000 in taxable income.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_1.html

Tax Cut Recipients


Obama overstated how many people would save on taxes under his plan:

Obama: My definition – here's what I can tell the American people: 95 percent of you will get a tax cut. And if you make less than $250,000, less than a quarter-million dollars a year, then you will not see one dime's worth of tax increase.

That should be 95 percent of families, not 95 percent of "American people." An analysis by the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center found that Obama's plan would decrease taxes for 95.5 percent of families with children. Overall, 81.3 percent of households would get a tax cut under his proposal.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Rich-Poor Divide Worst Among Rich Countries

by Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON - The "American Dream" of upward social mobility appears to have emigrated from its birthplace in the United States to northern Europe, according to a major new report by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) on the growth of economic equality over the past 20 years.

A homeless man in central London sits next to a Gucci shopping bag. The gap between rich and poor has grown in most developed countries over the past 20 years resulting in an increase in child poverty, the OECD - an organisation of 30 leading economies - has said in a report. (AFP/File/Carl de Souza)Of its 30 member states, most of which are also members of the European Union, the United States has the largest gap between its wealthiest and poorest households after Mexico and Turkey, according to the report, "Growing Unequal?", which was released at OECD headquarters in Paris Tuesday.

That gap has grown particularly large in the U.S. since 2000 -- that is, under the administration of President George W. Bush -- according to the report, which found that the gap between the U.S. middle class and the wealthiest 10 percent has also increased.

The growth in the divide has major implications for social mobility, according to OECD Secretary-General Angel Gurria, who said the report's data had demonstrated that the notion that inequality encourages the poor to do better is false.

"Social mobility is low in countries with high inequality like Italy, the UK (United Kingdom), and the United States. And it is much higher in the Nordic countries, where income is distributed more evenly," he told reporters.

"This means that, in most high-inequality countries, dishwashers' sons are more likely to be dishwashers and millionaires' kids can assume that they too will be rich," he said, adding that governments could do much to promote mobility, particularly through progressive tax policies, greater social spending, job creation, and increasing investment in education.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/10/22-7

[baja]

Mcsame wants the government to spend 300 billion in tax dollars to buy out mortgages in foreclosure.Where is your outrage at that Bob?That's not spreading the wealth?that's not socialism?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27336640/

No that is a blatant attempt to buy votes he has no intention of actually doing that. Gay marriage amendment anyone?

[baja]

Re the thread question. It's because they want those people back in the data base.

[baja]

Remember "Either you are with us or you are against us"

[Bronco Bob]

Ok, this post confuses me. Yes they have the largest tax percentage but they only pay about 31% of that percentage. And we keep hearing how we can't make them pay more because they create the jobs. Yet we just had a President who gave the nicest cut to them yet one of the lowest creation of jobs throughout his 8 years. :kiddingme

Yeah, that's the part I don't get. If tax cuts are so great at stimulating
the economy, then why is the economy doing so lousy. Why has
the rate of people in poverty gone up every year since the Bush
tax cuts for the rich?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yeah, that's the part I don't get. If tax cuts are so great at stimulating
the economy, then why is the economy doing so lousy. Why has
the rate of people in poverty gone up every year since the Bush
tax cuts for the rich?

Not only did Bush's tax cuts for the super-rich fail to stimulate the economy (which those of us who remembered Trickle-Down 1.0 could have told him from the outset) but Bush tacitly admitted we were right and he was wrong when he sent out that last round of "stimulus" checks.

[Play2win]

Not only did Bush's tax cuts for the super-rich fail to stimulate the economy (which those of us who remembered Trickle-Down 1.0 could have told him from the outset) but Bush tacitly admitted we were right and he was wrong when he sent out that last round of "stimulus" checks.

So did Allen **GASP** GREENSPAN... He even admitted there were flaws in his "Ideology"...