Fading as the season goes on: Why?

[Popps]

I remember during the off-season "what will our record be" polls, my stock answer has been that I just want to see one thing.

I want to see us get better... and build momentum as the season goes on.

I don't care if we're 6-10, I just want to see us get BETTER instead of worse as each week goes by. I didn't see us as a Superbowl team, but carrying momentum through to the next season is extremely important for NFL teams, even in the free agency era.

Well, here we are at the bye and unless you guys know something I don't, this marks the third year in a row that we've started looking fairly good and gotten worse every game. Without a game-by-game log in front of me, I'll go out on a limb and speculate that this has probably been the case in most of the past 10 seasons, minus 2005... where we managed to play a whole season.

Now, maybe we come out of the bye-week guns blazing. But, if we don't... and we're flat and lose again, you have to think the idea of building as the season goes on is out the window.

I'm curious as to why you all think this is. I have my thesis, but I want to know yours. Think of all the variables that have changed, and yet... we fade the same every year.

Theories.....?

[cutthemdown]

lack of talent get's exposed as season goes on. Shanny so smart his new wrinkles take a few weeks to figure out then D coord have the film and come up with ways to put players in position to defend. Once that happens it's who has more talent. In most cases it's the other player.

Royal has a lot to learn saw him look lost a few times since his big games early, or get covered easily.

Marshall is real deal but I think he thinks he has to win game with big plays and presses a little, gets fatigued and makes mistakes from pressing. Same thing with Cutler.

Give Cutler a few more weapons at RB/TE/WR, give Defense 2 real safety's and a real SSL and MLB, a CB and a dlineman and we will roll. That could take 2 more yrs.

[CBF1]

What are the only 2 constants over the past 10 seasons???

Patrick Bowlen and Mike Shannahan. Your comments?

[go_broncos]

I remember during the off-season "what will our record be" polls, my stock answer has been that I just want to see one thing.

I want to see us get better... and build momentum as the season goes on.

I don't care if we're 6-10, I just want to see us get BETTER instead of worse as each week goes by. I didn't see us as a Superbowl team, but carrying momentum through to the next season is extremely important for NFL teams, even in the free agency era.

Well, here we are at the bye and unless you guys know something I don't, this marks the third year in a row that we've started looking fairly good and gotten worse every game. Without a game-by-game log in front of me, I'll go out on a limb and speculate that this has probably been the case in most of the past 10 seasons, minus 2005... where we managed to play a whole season.

Now, maybe we come out of the bye-week guns blazing. But, if we don't... and we're flat and lose again, you have to think the idea of building as the season goes on is out the window.

I'm curious as to why you all think this is. I have my thesis, but I want to know yours. Think of all the variables that have changed, and yet... we fade the same every year.

Theories.....?

we usually start fast in a game and then stumble at the end..
This is happening frequently..

My theory is that we wont adjust in 2nd half of the game(similar to the season).

[ColoradoDarin]

Injuries = Fading. It's pretty much as simple as that. Take a look at what we've had to deal with as a team over the last few years and it'll correspond to our W/L.

[BroncoInferno]

Honestly, I think it's coincidence. The problems differ from season to season, so so you can't just isolate a particular approach. This season there have been two problems. One is injuries. No luck on that score. Key players on both sides missing games hurts. That said, it can be overcome. The biggest problem has been turnovers. It doesn't just put the D in a bad spot; it kills offensive momentum. Look at Mondays game. We were moving the ball very well on each of the first two drive. Result? Fumbles. Same type of thing against Jacksonville. We move the ball, have a couple of turnovers, then stall. If we cut out the TOs, I think we can win games with our offense. The defense? Well, we just have to get it together on offense.

[Hamrob]

Well, first and foremost...12 turnovers in 3 games will cause alot of problems if you're a team that would like to win games.

Look, this teams is not as good as we would have liked....and most likely it's another year without us getting to the playoffs. But, right now, we do have a 1 game lead in the division.

If we can limit the turnovers and get healthy on offense...we can improve as the season goes on.

I would like to see guys like Hillis at FB, Larsen at MlB, Barrett at Strong Safety etc. etc. I don't know where we would play woodyard. Seems to me, that the only way he gets in...is if we move DJ back to Sam. Personally, I think that's the best thing we could do...but it may tick DJ off long term.

By now we should have figured out that our problems on defense aren't the schemes...it's that the players aren't getting it done on the field. Part of that is the coaches fault...and part of it is the players we have on the field.

I'd start with:

Larsen at MLB
Barrett at SS
Woodyard at WLB
DJ Williams at SAM

I'd also sign a veteran CB if there's one available.

[richpjr]

It seems to me as if the new wrinkles in the offseason catch teams by surprise and give the Broncos a quick first month boost. But I don't think the team has much quality depth and hasn't for quite some time. When teams start adjusting to the new wrinkles and plays start getting hurt and nicked up, the lack of depth rears it's head and the team fades.

[yavoon]

lack of talent get's exposed as season goes on. Shanny so smart his new wrinkles take a few weeks to figure out then D coord have the film and come up with ways to put players in position to defend. Once that happens it's who has more talent. In most cases it's the other player.

Royal has a lot to learn saw him look lost a few times since his big games early, or get covered easily.

Marshall is real deal but I think he thinks he has to win game with big plays and presses a little, gets fatigued and makes mistakes from pressing. Same thing with Cutler.

Give Cutler a few more weapons at RB/TE/WR, give Defense 2 real safety's and a real SSL and MLB, a CB and a dlineman and we will roll. That could take 2 more yrs.

to me that makes shanny dumb not smart. smart coaches can continue to adapt. you're saying shanny pulls out some interesting quirks he builds in every offseason, they start getting owned by week 5 and its "derr derr derr" all the way in.

PS, I like shanny, not a shanny hater.

[cutthemdown]

to me that makes shanny dumb not smart. smart coaches can continue to adapt. you're saying shanny pulls out some interesting quirks he builds in every offseason, they start getting owned by week 5 and its "derr derr derr" all the way in.

PS, I like shanny, not a shanny hater.

yes because other teams have more talent. schemes can only get you so far. At some point the better players win out. I don't think shanny dumb because most coaches would lose from the get go.

[Taco John]

I think it's for the same reason that I thought it was when Coyer was our coach and Plummer was our quarterback: lack of quality depth on defense - and now a complete void of talent there as well.

I'm not in panic mode over the offense. I don't think Jay is deteriorating. I think the offense just had a bad outing. I think Jay has a lot of maturing to do, and let a lot of his early success this season go to his head. But on Monday Night, I saw an offense that panicked when we had to abandon our game plan due to Jay's injury, and an already bad defense who got sucked into the black hole after them.

The team imploded. It's a sign of an immature team. This immaturity is exactly what I expected out of this season -- I figured we'd have some great moments, but we'd also have some struggles.

Personally, I think this has the potential to work in our favor. If we were going to melt down, what better time to do it than during a bye week when the team has two full weeks to regain their focus stewing on the implosion.

This next game is going to show the character of this team, and particularly Jay as the leader of it. I figure that they'll come out strong for a couple of games again, and run back into the ditch where the team will have a chance to face their own demons once again - just in time for a divisional race to the finish.

We fixed our quarterback problem - but Jay is still an immature kid on an immature team - one without a defense worth speaking of. A defense like this needs an ass-kicking coach with a mean streak. Instead we've got a brainiac strategist who couldn't motivate a fat kid to eat a cup cake. It's too bad we sent our ass-kicker packing for Tampa Bay.

[yavoon]

yes because other teams have more talent. schemes can only get you so far. At some point the better players win out. I don't think shanny dumb because most coaches would lose from the get go.

so coaching becomes irrelevant as the season goes on? what game are you watching? I think coaching and adjustments only become more important as the season progresses. you're saying shanny has a few tricks, then he's found out and its pwnedville the rest of the year. thats not a compliment.

[cutthemdown]

so coaching becomes irrelevant as the season goes on? what game are you watching? I think coaching and adjustments only become more important as the season progresses. you're saying shanny has a few tricks, then he's found out and its pwnedville the rest of the year. thats not a compliment.

no not at all it's important all yr. Shanny a good coach but so are other coaches in the NFL. The ones with better talent just have Shanny outgunned. He can't scheme out of it because he hasn't the weapons.

Some teams just to good to get WR wide open and huge holes to run through no matter how smart you are.

I'm not really trying to throw shanny under the bus. I think we win 3-4 more games then we should each yr based on his coaching. We only lose maybe 1-2 based on bad coaching. I think most of the losses due to bad players.

Shanny may be to blame for that but not for having bad game plans.

[cutthemdown]

to me that makes shanny dumb not smart. smart coaches can continue to adapt. you're saying shanny pulls out some interesting quirks he builds in every offseason, they start getting owned by week 5 and its "derr derr derr" all the way in.

PS, I like shanny, not a shanny hater.

I'm not a shanny hater either. We just may disagree why the team fades. I blame it on talent. I think Shanny can scheme easier in season because teams haven't figured out the broncos weaknesses yet. Once they do it gets tougher for Shanny to figure out how to hide those weaknesses and still score.

[yavoon]

no not at all it's important all yr. Shanny a good coach but so are other coaches in the NFL. The ones with better talent just have Shanny outgunned. He can't scheme out of it because he hasn't the weapons.

Some teams just to good to get WR wide open and huge holes to run through no matter how smart you are.

I'm not really trying to throw shanny under the bus. I think we win 3-4 more games then we should each yr based on his coaching. We only lose maybe 1-2 based on bad coaching. I think most of the losses due to bad players.

Shanny may be to blame for that but not for having bad game plans.

Is this like the coaches who are horrible at halftime adjustments, but can script a good first 15 plays? Adjustments are part of what make you a smart coach. Shanny shouldn't get a free ride on sucking in the second half.

[cutthemdown]

Is this like the coaches who are horrible at halftime adjustments, but can script a good first 15 plays? Adjustments are part of what make you a smart coach. Shanny shouldn't get a free ride on sucking in the second half.

i see where your coming from but without the right tools (talent) maybe they just aren't executing those adjustments.

For all we know Shanny yelling at them TUE morining saying this is what we told you to do, this what you did. Or he's watching film saying to other coaches look the player did what we said, then when point of attack occurred he just got outclassed by the other teams player.

I'm not convinced it's because Shanny can't make on the fly adjustments.

I'm also not saying that Shanny is perfect. IMO he has made some bad play calls, or has let o coord make bad play calls.

IMO if it keeps up struggling Shanny should take over the offense and run the meetings.

[yavoon]

i see where your coming from but without the right tools (talent) maybe they just aren't executing those adjustments.

For all we know Shanny yelling at them TUE morining saying this is what we told you to do, this what you did. Or he's watching film saying to other coaches look the player did what we said, then when point of attack occurred he just got outclassed by the other teams player.

I'm not convinced it's because Shanny can't make on the fly adjustments.

I'm also not saying that Shanny is perfect. IMO he has made some bad play calls, or has let o coord make bad play calls.

IMO if it keeps up struggling Shanny should take over the offense and run the meetings.

true, its hard to separate coaching from player skill. don't forget there's coaches like schottenheimer too who don't do much in x's and o's but can light some serious fires into players to get them to win matchups they might not for another coach.

[cutthemdown]

true, its hard to separate coaching from player skill. don't forget there's coaches like schottenheimer too who don't do much in x's and o's but can light some serious fires into players to get them to win matchups they might not for another coach.

Maybe it's both, some bad coaching and some bad players.

Shanny may not be getting the players utmost respect any more.

[lex]

I think part of it is that the team is young. They started out strong and thought they could play fast and loose concerning ball security. But if you look at the past three losses, our slide in each game began with turnovers. In KC and Jax, it was Marshall fumbles and in the last one it was the Hall fumbles. They are not mature enough to know the importance of ball security to start with and then they also havent responded well once it happened.

Thats part of it...not saying its the entire reason.

[Mediator12]

Maybe it's both, some bad coaching and some bad players.

Shanny may not be getting the players utmost respect any more.

This thread is funny as hell!

I have been saying this for years and no one wanted to believe it. What it is is having players that have to cover for others and players who struggle to execute the main gameplan, let alone any "adjustments". Over time, a team can only hide its weaknesses for so long. Then, they have to be able to adjust. Not only with playcalling, but HOW you play a certain play.

The second part is players having to make up for deficiencies elsewhere. When your DL loses the majority of its battles, it creates a huge burden on the rest of the back seven to make a play( Sorry Rev, the DL did not play anywhere near as well as you thought the other night. The LB's actually were filling vacant holes as NE tore up the DL). Over the course of a game, they wear down quicker than most teams. And, over the course of the season it gets old and harder to do. Especially as teams design more efficient ways to attack your weaknesses. Add in injuries, inconsistency, immaturity, and the vicious cycle of TO's and this looks much worse on the field than it should.

I have watched every single game in the NFL this year and DEN is not the only team that has some of these problems. I think we get myopic as fans sometimes. The reality is DEN is an average team of talent, playing rather poorly the last 3 weeks after playing very well offensively the first 3. I thought it was the sign of a good team when they beat TB after playing awful. Now, I realize it was just a game where they did not turn the ball over and the defense had the game of their lives. I would like to think that Shanahan would learn more from his mistakes, but as brilliant as he is, he still repeats way too many and let's his ego get in the way.

The team needs a major philosophical adjustment on Defense to create a good mentality and identity. They need to have effective players in the trenches on the DL through better coaching AND better Talent. Its Both right now. Then, they need to stick to the philosophy and acquire the right players that match it. It may take time or if they do it right it could be much quicker. The biggest problem is Shanahan has done it very wrong as a head coach. Until he changes, which may never happen, this is what we have to look forward to watching on defense.

[Broncomutt]

I think it's coaching. I imagine being an NFL head coach has got to be one of the most stressful jobs in the country, maybe the world, especially during the season.

I imagine Shanny starts refreshed and renewed each season, but as the season wears on, the stress wears all men down. Players and coaches. I think being in the same position for almost 15 years means the grind gets heavier and heavier with each passing year.

Age and tenure start to sap desire and innovation.

You may point out that Jeff Fisher has a longer tenure than Shanny and he's doing just fine right now. But I think Fisher is susceptible, just like Shanny, to the grind of NFL life. I think he is benefitting from a few years drafting as a "cellar dweller", whereas Shanny has never really slipped lower than mediocrity.

This may sound like a criticsm of Shanny, and it actually is. But it's also a mention of profound respect and admiration for somebody who does have to manage these types of titanic stresses, under the intense media and public spotlight, year in and year out. And to do so while still remaining relatively competitive year after year is utterly amazing when you think about it.

It's for these reasons that I love Mike Shanahan....but also why I hope he steps down at the end of the season.

[bloodsunday]

yes because other teams have more talent. schemes can only get you so far. At some point the better players win out. I don't think shanny dumb because most coaches would lose from the get go.

Whoa... whoa. More talent? We have as much talent on the offensive side alone as many teams do on their whole roster. We aren't getting enough out of our talent for a variety of reasons.

[socalorado]

I think it's for the same reason that I thought it was when Coyer was our coach and Plummer was our quarterback: lack of quality depth on defense - and now a complete void of talent there as well.

I'm not in panic mode over the offense. I don't think Jay is deteriorating. I think the offense just had a bad outing. I think Jay has a lot of maturing to do, and let a lot of his early success this season go to his head. But on Monday Night, I saw an offense that panicked when we had to abandon our game plan due to Jay's injury, and an already bad defense who got sucked into the black hole after them.

The team imploded. It's a sign of an immature team. This immaturity is exactly what I expected out of this season -- I figured we'd have some great moments, but we'd also have some struggles.

Personally, I think this has the potential to work in our favor. If we were going to melt down, what better time to do it than during a bye week when the team has two full weeks to regain their focus stewing on the implosion.

This next game is going to show the character of this team, and particularly Jay as the leader of it. I figure that they'll come out strong for a couple of games again, and run back into the ditch where the team will have a chance to face their own demons once again - just in time for a divisional race to the finish.

We fixed our quarterback problem - but Jay is still an immature kid on an immature team - one without a defense worth speaking of. A defense like this needs an ass-kicking coach with a mean streak. Instead we've got a brainiac strategist who couldn't motivate a fat kid to eat a cup cake. It's too bad we sent our ass-kicker packing for Tampa Bay.

#1 Player Maturity
#2 Ball Control (fumbles)
#3 Coaching
#3A Talent

[bloodsunday]

I'm not in panic mode over the offense. I don't think Jay is deteriorating. I think the offense just had a bad outing. I think Jay has a lot of maturing to do, and let a lot of his early success this season go to his head. But on Monday Night, I saw an offense that panicked when we had to abandon our game plan due to Jay's injury, and an already bad defense who got sucked into the black hole after them.

How can you say that when we've scored 59 pts in the last 4 games with 13 turnovers?

This all started to fall apart in 2006 when 2 things happened: 1) Kubes left and 2) Jay was drafted, undercutting Plummer

Personally I think the problems start with with Jay. We are running the ball for a respectable 103/yds game. The OL is doing a kick ass job pass protecting. The elements are all there for the QB to dominate -- but he's not. Let's be honest with ourselves and admit that he made two costly plays that should have lost us the San Diego game as well. The fading starts with Cutler. He has one QB rating of greater than 80 in 4 weeks now. And that was against Tampa when he seemed steamed after the game because he had to play under control and couldn't force things. We all knew this team would go where he took us, and so far that is basically mediocre.

We miss Gary Kubiak. Sure his Houston teams are struggling, but they do a much better job adjusting with less talent on offense. And talk about a team that's fighting through adversity with the Hurricane an all. This offense is not the same with out him.

Our other big problem may also be our biggest asset: Shanahan. I think in some respects his approach is starting to wear thin. The players don't seem to play hard for him. It seems to me that other teams make better adjustments than we do at the moment. We are still struggling to get our personnel issues figured out -- at least on D. What's worse, we are over-changing the D. Year after year we haul in more FAs and coordinators. Not only do we lack talent, but we lack continuity and conviction about what we are doing on that side of the ball.

Don't feed me injury BS because every team plays with them. Pittsburgh. Indy. Jacksonville beat us without most of their secondary. Injuries are part of the game and at some point every team has run of them. The good teams fight through.

[socalorado]

How can you say that when we've scored 59 pts in the last 4 games with 13 turnovers?

This all started to fall apart in 2006 when 2 things happened: 1) Kubes left and 2) Jay was drafted, undercutting Plummer

Personally I think the problems start with with Jay. We are running the ball for a respectable 103/yds game. The OL is doing a kick ass job pass protecting. The elements are all there for the QB to dominate -- but he's not. Let's be honest with ourselves and admit that he made two costly plays that should have lost us the San Diego game as well. The fading starts with Cutler. He has one QB rating of greater than 80 in 4 weeks now. And that was against Tampa when he seemed steamed after the game because he had to play under control and couldn't force things. We all knew this team would go where he took us, and so far that is basically mediocre.

We miss Gary Kubiak. Sure his Houston teams are struggling, but they do a much better job adjusting with less talent on offense. And talk about a team that's fighting through adversity with the Hurricane an all. This offense is not the same with out him.

Our other big problem may also be our biggest asset: Shanahan. I think in some respects his approach is starting to wear thin. The players don't seem to play hard for him. It seems to me that other teams make better adjustments than we do at the moment. We are still struggling to get our personnel issues figured out -- at least on D. What's worse, we are over-changing the D. Year after year we haul in more FAs and coordinators. Not only do we lack talent, but we lack continuity and conviction about what we are doing on that side of the ball.

Don't feed me injury BS because every team plays with them. Pittsburgh. Indy. Jacksonville beat us without most of their secondary. Injuries are part of the game and at some point every team has run of them. The good teams fight through.

Agreed. Injuries are not a reason, they are an excuse.
Every team has injuries. Every team.
DEN just got its @$$ handed to them by MATT CASSEL!!! EM KAY EVERYONE?!?!?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Everything rises and falls on leadership.

Any questions?

[Beantown Bronco]

What are the only 2 constants over the past 10 seasons???

Patrick Bowlen and Mike Shannahan. Your comments?

My comment: they were also 2 of the constants during the SB years.

[footstepsfrom#27]

My comment: they were also 2 of the constants during the SB years.
Constants? The only constant is change. Everything changes...some organizations and people are able to change with time and some are not. It appears to me that this one has struggled mightily with that. Shanahan does not change and Bowlen has not forced him to do so. Our drafts, with a couple of exceptions have been very poor. Our FA moves have been risky and foolishly planned. Our talent evaluation remains suspect. Our coach insists on being both on field coach and off field GM which even Jimmy Johnson with his type A personality found to exhausting to mantain over time. Our defensive philosophy waffles back and forth and has no direction or consistency in leadership because the coach has no idea what that side of the ball is about.

[55CrushEm]

A defense like this needs an ass-kicking coach with a mean streak. Instead we've got a brainiac strategist who couldn't motivate a fat kid to eat a cup cake. It's too bad we sent our ass-kicker packing for Tampa Bay.

:rofl:

[TonyR]

Our drafts, with a couple of exceptions have been very poor. Our FA moves have been risky and foolishly planned. Our talent evaluation remains suspect.

Yes, and you're even understating the problem. Our player personnel management has been among the worst in the league over the last several years. That's why we don't have the talent you need to compete at the highest level in this league. I've always been a big Shanahan fan and supporter but as long as he controls the GM responsibilities this team will never rise above mediocre. And maybe that means he has to go as hard as that is to swallow.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Extras/2008/recapintro.htm

[joe9999]

It seems to me as if the new wrinkles in the offseason catch teams by surprise and give the Broncos a quick first month boost. But I don't think the team has much quality depth and hasn't for quite some time. When teams start adjusting to the new wrinkles and plays start getting hurt and nicked up, the lack of depth rears it's head and the team fades.

I was gonna say the same thing about Shanahan plus add an undersized factor. They are undersized and get beat down by big physical teams. They have been undersized for years. The first game size matters less since they are in prime condition.

And to repeat Shanahan is a superior coach and catches teams by surprise the first couple of games. Then watching film other teams learn the glaring weaknesses on defense and Shanny`s offensive strategy with the new roster.

[bronco militia]

this has been going on since the 2001 season

[maher_tyler]

I remember during the off-season "what will our record be" polls, my stock answer has been that I just want to see one thing.

I want to see us get better... and build momentum as the season goes on.

I don't care if we're 6-10, I just want to see us get BETTER instead of worse as each week goes by. I didn't see us as a Superbowl team, but carrying momentum through to the next season is extremely important for NFL teams, even in the free agency era.

Well, here we are at the bye and unless you guys know something I don't, this marks the third year in a row that we've started looking fairly good and gotten worse every game. Without a game-by-game log in front of me, I'll go out on a limb and speculate that this has probably been the case in most of the past 10 seasons, minus 2005... where we managed to play a whole season.

Now, maybe we come out of the bye-week guns blazing. But, if we don't... and we're flat and lose again, you have to think the idea of building as the season goes on is out the window.

I'm curious as to why you all think this is. I have my thesis, but I want to know yours. Think of all the variables that have changed, and yet... we fade the same every year.

Theories.....?

In all 3 games we lost we had at least 4 turnovers...not gonna win any games when you turn the ball over that much period!!

[BroncoBen]

I'm curious as to why you all think this is. I have my thesis, but I want to know yours. Think of all the variables that have changed, and yet... we fade the same every year.

Theories.....?

I think on offense the problem has to do with the 'weapons' Cutler has lost. You figure teams are starting to double team or roll coverage over to Marshal to make it harder for him to get open. You figure Royal and Jackson are still not 100%, and Stokley, Scheffler and Selvin Young have been out.

On defense.. well the problem has been with the pressure the defensive line has not been able to produce, and the safties they have now are just journey men. Plus the defense doesn't have an identity, they are still unsure of themselves which means they are thinking.. not reacting. They are not aggresive, and wait to see what the offense is going to do then they react.

[HAT]

Age and tenure start to sap desire and innovation.


:thumbs:

[HAT]

My comment: they were also 2 of the constants during the SB years.


My Comment:

The 'super bowl years' were before PB proclaimed MS 'coach for life'.

[Grover]

1) Rethink the off season program. Give players a bit more time off, have them work harder when they're in conditioning.
2) Retime the training camp. Right now we hold ours later than any other team. Make it earlier and maybe our guys won't wear down.
3) Rich Tuten, our strength and conditioning coach, has to learn new techniques or hit the road. We have far too many hammys and groin injuries, our guys are gassed after a few games.
4) Practice harder and with pads. If we tackle better, our defense won't be on the field so much tearing their groins, and pulling hammys while escorting the other team's RB into the end zone.

[Tombstone RJ]

I remember during the off-season "what will our record be" polls, my stock answer has been that I just want to see one thing.

I want to see us get better... and build momentum as the season goes on.

I don't care if we're 6-10, I just want to see us get BETTER instead of worse as each week goes by. I didn't see us as a Superbowl team, but carrying momentum through to the next season is extremely important for NFL teams, even in the free agency era.

Well, here we are at the bye and unless you guys know something I don't, this marks the third year in a row that we've started looking fairly good and gotten worse every game. Without a game-by-game log in front of me, I'll go out on a limb and speculate that this has probably been the case in most of the past 10 seasons, minus 2005... where we managed to play a whole season.

Now, maybe we come out of the bye-week guns blazing. But, if we don't... and we're flat and lose again, you have to think the idea of building as the season goes on is out the window.

I'm curious as to why you all think this is. I have my thesis, but I want to know yours. Think of all the variables that have changed, and yet... we fade the same every year.

Theories.....?

We all knew the defense was gonna be a work in progress. As far as I can see, the defense is improving, albeit the numbers (stats) don't show any progression. IMO, it's not all about the stats, its about watching the team play.

What I've seen is the defense getting better while the offense is regressing. Yes, they stunk it up in the second half of the NE game, but they held NE in check in the firs half when the offense turned the ball over repeatedly, giving NE fantastic field position.

If the offense and the defense can both play their best, at the same time (the offense of the first three games with the defense of the last few games) then I think this team will win 10 games.

However, if that does not happen, and the Broncos are fighting injuries, then this team is gonna struggle badly.

As for the offense, the reason it's regressing is because the running game is not a weapon the opposing defenses fear. Basically, opposing teams know this is a past first, run second team and they can game plan around that. Plus, Cutler is not a rookie and the opposing teams have enough tape on him to know his strengths and weaknesses. It ain't rocket science that a team like NE can make the Broncos offense look silly if they know that they don't have to fear the running game.

Hopefully, Torain will make a difference when he returns. Also, I'd like to get Hillis more involved in the offense. Also, the TEs haven't exactly been a realiable weapon for Jay. That's three issues that can be fixed and possibly get the offense back on track.

As for the defense, it's gonna play better if the offense is scoring. That is, you can hide alot of the defensive problems by scoring more points. Also, I don't have a problem with Shanny saying, what the hell, play Larsen and Barrett and Williams and WWIII and see what happens. Get the young guys in there and see what happens. The safeties suck, so why not put Barrett in and see what happens?

[TonyR]

What I've seen is the defense getting better while the offense is regressing. Yes, they stunk it up in the second half of the NE game, but they held NE in check in the firs half when the offense turned the ball over repeatedly, giving NE fantastic field position.


I'm not sure what team you're watching. Sammy freaking Morris had 138 yards rushing against us in the first half if I'm not mistaken. On 16 carries. That's not holding anyone, or anything, in check. This defense is a bad joke.

[oubronco]

1) Rethink the off season program. Give players a bit more time off, have them work harder when they're in conditioning.
2) Retime the training camp. Right now we hold ours later than any other team. Make it earlier and maybe our guys won't wear down.
3) Rich Tuten, our strength and conditioning coach, has to learn new techniques or hit the road. We have far too many hammys and groin injuries, our guys are gassed after a few games.
4) Practice harder and with pads. If we tackle better, our defense won't be on the field so much tearing their groins, and pulling hammys while escorting the other team's RB into the end zone.

AMEN BROTHA

[Taco John]

We miss Gary Kubiak.


Maybe. I don't see it. Kubiak was a fine member of our team, but we are having the same kind of problems now that we had when he was here - except that now we're making big plays with greater regularity.

I think the problem on offense is immaturity. I think the problem on defense is both talent and coaching.

[Old Dude]

Maturity is a huge issue, but I have to say that some of these young players are showing great maturity already. Clady, for example, is having a fine year. Royal has only had one bad play, that I can recall, and is well ahead of what I expected. I think Cutler would be doing better if he hadn't lost a couple of his best targets. The hand injury on Monday night didn't help at all. He'll bounce back.

Turnovers are killing us. Absolutely killing us. Especially the fumbles. I could understand it if these were mostly the result of hard hits, but our guys are just having the ball poked out of their hands, or bobbling it away. To me, that's a matter of inexperience, lack of concentration, and probably poor practice habits.

Injuries are a factor. We don't have much depth anywhere. (Not many teams do these days.)

The defense is horrible. There is an acute lack of talent there. We haven't drafted many defensive players and those we have are either backups or busts. Our F/A signings have not been very good on that side of the ball. Coaching is an issue, to the extent that the younger defensive players aren't developing.

[Popps]

Interesting points all around, and you guys covered most of what I believe are the problems.

My list of reasons I believe we fade every year...

1. Shanahan is not a player's coach
I've long speculated that he's not good with young players. He's a coach who does a fantastic job with a roster of savvy vets, but what happens when we don't have that? I think Shanahan's approach is to isolate players that don't perform, not to go after them or encourage them. That works great when you've got a talented veteran team, but not so much when you're building up a young squad. Again, this is just personal observation from the outside... but it sure looks to me like Shanahan loses his team every year about mid-season.

2. Finesse players
Someone referred to Boss Bailey here as a "Finesse Linebacker," and it's true. Pretty funny. Not exactly the position where you want a finesse player.
We're too small almost everywhere, and we have precious few physical players. Think about the best tackler on our defense... it's Champ freakin' Bailey. The most physical guy on our offense might be Brandon Marshall.
I think the combination of smallish players and "finesse" guys wears on you about mid-season, particularly when you're facing blue-collar teams like Jacksonville.

3. Lack of vision
The idea that we're bringing up guys from the practice squad mid-season (last year) or plugging in scrubs like Lowry mid-season (this year) tells you that someone at the helm can't look at player and have any understanding of what they're seeing. It took them seven ****ing weeks to pull John Engleberger out of the starting line-up. This sack of potatoes has lined up as a starter for a year and a half on the worst D-line in football, and JUST NOW someone figures out to get him out of there. The list could go on and on, but somewhere in the coaching ranks... we have a major lack of vision. Overhauling your roster after 7 games every year (and not just because of injury) is a major ****ing problem, and someone needs to be held accountable.

4) Leadership
Everyone hates the leadership conversation, but it's not just players... it's coaching, too. We have few leaders on the field and you have to wonder who's motivating this team from the coaching ranks. Do you guys get the idea that players would run through a wall for Shanahan? If so, I just must be missing it. Who's our leader out there on defense? Bailey? He basically admits to not being a vocal guy. No problem, but we NEED vocal leaders. Every great team has them. We have none. DJ ****ing Williams is just to the point where you can call him an above average player, many years into his career. He's not a savvy leader. Who's the leader on the offense? Cutler? The guy moping around, throwing off of his back foot and talking about how great his arm is?

5) Injuries
Not much you can do about this one. Sure, you can train differently, but Champ hurt his groin simply running. He wasn't hit, nothing. Just running. Some of this is bad luck. But, some of it is bringing in a guy like Boss Bailey, who you know has problems staying healthy. Are we doing enough homework on guys like Sheffler when we draft them? Again, this could all be dumb luck, but you'll notice that winning teams just have fewer injuries and no, I don't think that's ALL chicken/egg. I believe some of teams staying healthy is a result of working (in a variety of ways) to avoid them.


Lack of identity
Well, we're a passing team now. At least we have that much going for us. Too bad we can't pass very well these days. Beyond that, what are we? Are we physical? Are we fast? Do we run sophisticated offense/defense? Are we blue-collar? Are we a running team anymore? Are teams afraid to play us?
(Unlikely.) We have no personality. We're a roster mostly full of vanilla players and no-name guys. Champ's great. Cutler may be great some day. Beyond that, what the **** are we supposed to be? I always hear that teams end up being a reflection of the personality of their coach. Well, Mike... what is this? What are we supposed to be? I don't think the players know. I definitely don't gather a sense of great chemistry from what I see out there.
I don't think guys are quitting yet, but they're close.

[broncosteven]

I think that Shanny works hard to find a gameplan that works to his offense's strengths.

I also think that teams figure out what he is doing and adjust.

The other thing I have issues with Shanny is that he rely's too much on using one type of play to setup another. run game setting up Pass game, short passing game setting up Deep passing.

Shanny has great success early in games when his team executes his plan, teams adapt over the game and take a phase away. Add the loss of a power run game and Defense that can make a stop and we are screwed.

If the players don't execute and give the ball away there is no way one can win.

[cutthemdown]

This thread is funny as hell!

I have been saying this for years and no one wanted to believe it. What it is is having players that have to cover for others and players who struggle to execute the main gameplan, let alone any "adjustments". Over time, a team can only hide its weaknesses for so long. Then, they have to be able to adjust. Not only with playcalling, but HOW you play a certain play.

The second part is players having to make up for deficiencies elsewhere. When your DL loses the majority of its battles, it creates a huge burden on the rest of the back seven to make a play( Sorry Rev, the DL did not play anywhere near as well as you thought the other night. The LB's actually were filling vacant holes as NE tore up the DL). Over the course of a game, they wear down quicker than most teams. And, over the course of the season it gets old and harder to do. Especially as teams design more efficient ways to attack your weaknesses. Add in injuries, inconsistency, immaturity, and the vicious cycle of TO's and this looks much worse on the field than it should.

I have watched every single game in the NFL this year and DEN is not the only team that has some of these problems. I think we get myopic as fans sometimes. The reality is DEN is an average team of talent, playing rather poorly the last 3 weeks after playing very well offensively the first 3. I thought it was the sign of a good team when they beat TB after playing awful. Now, I realize it was just a game where they did not turn the ball over and the defense had the game of their lives. I would like to think that Shanahan would learn more from his mistakes, but as brilliant as he is, he still repeats way too many and let's his ego get in the way.

The team needs a major philosophical adjustment on Defense to create a good mentality and identity. They need to have effective players in the trenches on the DL through better coaching AND better Talent. Its Both right now. Then, they need to stick to the philosophy and acquire the right players that match it. It may take time or if they do it right it could be much quicker. The biggest problem is Shanahan has done it very wrong as a head coach. Until he changes, which may never happen, this is what we have to look forward to watching on defense.

It is funny. All these threads are. I said in the offseason this and training camp this Bronco team has some huge holes, lacks top end talent, lacks depth. Everyone hated me for it now they hate on me and say I'm happy the season is going into the tank just so I can be right.

It's B.S I was mad in offseason because team was stupid and brought in scrubs like Boss Bailey, Nike Weakokutidies, I said Pahmay and Foxy junk, that neither Manual or McCree can play in NFL, that selvin young won't last with that size etc. Now that they are pissed those things are all true they say I'm happy about it.

No I'm not happy i was just upset months and months before most of the people around here.

[TonyR]

Excellent post, Popps. I think a large chunk of the foundation of the problem is that Shanahan has surrounded himself with yes men. He has complete control but isn't very good at controlling several aspects of the team (player personnel and defense come to mind). And since he doesn't like his authority challenged he's brought in guys that won't challenge him. The most successful teams have a good GM/FO and a good coach and they both have clear roles. We don't have that. And until we do, this is the product you get.

[Tombstone RJ]

I'm not sure what team you're watching. Sammy freaking Morris had 138 yards rushing against us in the first half if I'm not mistaken. On 16 carries. That's not holding anyone, or anything, in check. This defense is a bad joke.

5 turnovers is tuff for even a great defense to over come. What was the score going into half time? I think it was NE 13, the Broncos 0.

[DBroncos4life]

We need a star RB, hell I really wouldn't mind picking up Bell. He atleast gives us someone that can break a long run.

[Eldorado]

5 turnovers is tuff for even a great defense to over come. What was the score going into half time? I think it was NE 13, the Broncos 0.

hmmm. 2 touch downs for the lead. Solid point.

[Cito Pelon]

One big deal as people have mentioned is the O tends to get very repetitive. Early in the season you'll hear people say, "They fooled the D again on the same play! They just ran it from the opposite side this time!" After game three or four, those same plays aren't fooling D's any more no matter how many different formations they try to run them from.

Also, the team consistently gets outscored in the 2nd halves of games. Whether they are ahead or behind at the half, the team consistently gets outscored in the 2nd halves of games. At every point in the season, the team gets outscored in the 2nd halves.

Along with that of course is the team rarely can recover from a halftime deficit, even against a bad team, and often barely squeaks a win out after having a good halftime lead.

I've heard a lot of talk about 'team identity.' The team identity for a long time has been a 'first half' team. First halves of games, and first halves of seasons. If the team wants to find an identity they can start with finishing games strong. So far this year about 60% of the points allowed have been in the second halves, and only about 40% of the points scored have been in the second halves. Denver's been outscored 96-54 in the second halves since the Oakland game. Denver has outscored the opponent the past two games 14-0 in the 4th quarter, but that's been too little too late.

[DenverBrit]

lack of talent get's exposed as season goes on. Shanny so smart his new wrinkles take a few weeks to figure out then D coord have the film and come up with ways to put players in position to defend. Once that happens it's who has more talent. In most cases it's the other player.

Royal has a lot to learn saw him look lost a few times since his big games early, or get covered easily.

Marshall is real deal but I think he thinks he has to win game with big plays and presses a little, gets fatigued and makes mistakes from pressing. Same thing with Cutler.

Give Cutler a few more weapons at RB/TE/WR, give Defense 2 real safety's and a real SSL and MLB, a CB and a dlineman and we will roll. That could take 2 more yrs.

+1 :thumbsup:

[SouthStndJunkie]

If the Broncos were a dude, he would suffer from premature ejaculation.

Good to go for a few minutes (in this case the first 5 or 6 games every year) and then the wad is blown.

[TonyR]

hmmm. 2 touch downs for the lead. Solid point.

Except for the fact that we were down 20-0 at the half, not 13-0...

[Chris Wade]

What are the only 2 constants over the past 10 seasons???

Patrick Bowlen and Mike Shannahan. Your comments?

Shanahan got Bowlen drunk after the '98 super bowl .Set him up. Took some incriminating photos. Now runs the Broncos like his personal empire. Isn't the emperor wearing nice clothes ?

[Popps]

The biggest problem is Shanahan has done it very wrong as a head coach. Until he changes, which may never happen, this is what we have to look forward to watching on defense.

Mediator... it's always baffled me how Shanahan was able to come in and put together such a great defense in the mid to late 90s, then never could again.
I mean, he got to town and went RIGHT to work on the D-line, bringing in Perry, etc. Then continued to upgrade everywhere on D, making smart move after smart move. It just looks brilliant, in hindsight.

How is this the same guy? Our defense has been an atrocity the last couple of years, and while we had marginal success before that... why do you think he was able to put together such a great D in the 90s. Despite how people want to revise history, those defenses were filled with great players and regularly ranked high in every defensive category.

Do you think Robinson was pulling the strings?

This can't possibly be the same coach that built that Superbowl D.

[SprintRightOption]

This has been a problem for many years, and the only constant is Shanahan.

1996: start 12-1, finish 1-3 including playoffs
1997: start 11-2, finish 1-2, then recover with the best postseason ever
1998: start 13-0, finish 1-2, then recover to win 3 playoff games by 13+ points

1999: start 0-4, finish 6-6.
2000: start 4-4, finish 7-1. This was the best finish to a season
2001: start 3-1, finish 5-7
2002: start 6-2, finish 3-5
2003: start 5-1, finish 5-6 including playoffs
2004: start 5-1, finish 5-6 including playoffs
2005: start 5-1, finish 8-2
2006: start 5-1, finish 4-6 (also started 7-2 and finished 2-5)
2007: pretty bad year after a 2-0 start
2008: start 3-0, 1-3 since. 38 ppg first 3 games, 15 ppg last 4.

The worst years were 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2006. But in 8 of the last 12 years there has been a poor finish, whether it was the last month or the last 8-10 games.

2000 and 2005 were the strong finishes, but in 2000 the Broncos still managed to lose their 15th game to a bad and collapsing KC team, when a win would've given them the 2nd seed and 2 home playoff games in Mile High's last year instead of playing in 40 mph wins in Baltimore in the first round.

Whether it was Elway, Griese, Plummer or Cutler, it still happened. I hate it, and would rather start 1-4 and finish 9-7 than start 5-1 and finish 10-6, even if 10-6 makes the playoffs but 9-7 doesn't.

Actually, even back in 1986 we started 6-0 and 8-1 but finished at 11-5, in 1984 we started 11-1 and ended up 13-3, and in 1989 we started 10-2 and finished at 11-5. In all 3 of these years we still had a bye, so the stumbling finish didn't cost much, but it happened before shanahan too. Even in 1992 a 7-3 start became a 8-8 record, and in 1993 a 7-4 start became a 9-7 finish, and a road playoff game instead of a home one due to a final game loss to LA (which also included a 27-10 3rd qtr lead becoming an ot loss).

It seems like the Broncos have had more than their share of late season fades the last 25 years, with no constant throughout. But under shanahan it has happened the most.

This decade, the Superbowl winner has usually done the opposite:

In 2000, Baltimore was 5-4 and didn't lose again.
In 2001, NE was 5-5 and didn't lose again.
In 2002, Tampa "only" went 10-2 after a 5-2 start.
In 2003 NE was 2-2 and didn't lose again.
In 2004, NE was 6-1 and "only" went 11-1 after that.
In 2005, Pittsburgh was 7-5 and didn't lose again, including 3 road playoff games.
In 2006, Indy was 9-0 and stumbled to 12-4, the only real fade.
In 2007, NE was 18-0 before officials didn't call multiple blatant holds on Tyree's catch on a drive where they dropped 3 ints. Also, NY was 4-4 after 6-2 and 3-2 after 7-4 for no real change before miraculously winning 4 playoff games.

In the last 8 seasons, 4 times the Super Bowl winner won their last 11, 9, 15 and 8 games, two other times they finished better than they started, and 2 times there was no change or a fade. The Broncos' 2 Super Bowl winning seasons seem to be in the minority of how champions finished the seasons, and we need to finish better than we started to have a good chance at ring #3.

[SprintRightOption]

Mediator... it's always baffled me how Shanahan was able to come in and put together such a great defense in the mid to late 90s, then never could again.
...
How is this the same guy? Our defense has been an atrocity the last couple of years, and while we had marginal success before that... why do you think he was able to put together such a great D in the 90s. Despite how people want to revise history, those defenses were filled with great players and regularly ranked high in every defensive category.

Do you think Robinson was pulling the strings?

This can't possibly be the same coach that built that Superbowl D.

Our defense in 2002-2006 had good players and finished high in stats every year, but ended up giving up crucial game losing drives way too often. In 2002, the Broncos were the only team in NFL history to have a top 10 defense and offense and not make the playoffs. In 2003, 04 and 06 the defense had top 10 stats and were as good as the 1996-8 defenses in yards, points and first downs. They just choked at the worst times too often.

We had good defenses for that stretch, and only really took advantage of it in 2005. But still the defense had it's worst performance of the year in playoff losses in 2003,04 and 05. The 2002 team should've been 12-4 but lost 4 unloseable games while only winning 1 they shouldn't have, and missed the postseason on a tiebraker.

[Popps]

Our defense in 2002-2006 had good players and finished high in stats every year, but ended up giving up crucial game losing drives way too often. In 2002, the Broncos were the only team in NFL history to have a top 10 defense and offense and not make the playoffs. In 2003, 04 and 06 the defense had top 10 stats and were as good as the 1996-8 defenses in yards, points and first downs. They just choked at the worst times too often.

We had good defenses for that stretch, and only really took advantage of it in 2005. But still the defense had it's worst performance of the year in playoff losses in 2003,04 and 05. The 2002 team should've been 12-4 but lost 4 unloseable games while only winning 1 they shouldn't have, and missed the postseason on a tiebraker.

Wow, excellent work and two phenomenal posts. Hopefully everyone reads these a couple of times.

Seriously, great footwork digging up those stats and excellent insights to go along with them.

[Popps]

Nice to see that I wasn't just imagining this to be the case, but rather that is is reality. (Or maybe not so nice.)

Just to add a bit to your thoughts, the other thing about finishing strong is that if you DON'T end up a playoff team, those things generally tend to carry over.
You often see teams carry momentum into the next season. We all sort of pictured this as some kind of rebuilding year with maybe an outside playoff shot. But, it's tough to see players and fans on something rebuilding that gets worse every week.

So, it's not just for playoff implications, it's just for general productivity and psyche reasons that you've got to get better every week. I'm not saying you don't have a bad game, or a bad stretch... but there should be marked improvement in every facet of our game and we just haven't seen it.

The only thing I can say that has gotten marginally better as the season has gone on is our pass-rush. We're actually getting to the QB a little more than when we started the season. I think that's due to Ekuban seeing more time and simply running more blitzes. Not sure how long those things can hold up.

Outside of that... the run defense has gotten worse, the pass defense still sucks overall and the offense has gotten worse in every measurable category, and PLEASE don't tell me this is ALL injuries. We played our first game without Brandon Marshal and lit up the Raiders.

Our O-Line, (theoretically blue chip) QB and #1 WR are healthy. Please don't tell me injuries are an excuse for an offense this bad.

[bloodsunday]

Maybe. I don't see it. Kubiak was a fine member of our team, but we are having the same kind of problems now that we had when he was here - except that now we're making big plays with greater regularity.

I think the problem on offense is immaturity. I think the problem on defense is both talent and coaching.

Hmm.. here is where we finished in Rank, Pts/g, Yds/game, and 1st d/g the last 6 years

2003 7 23.8 349.9 20.9
2004 5 23.8 395.8 21.9
2005 5 24.7 360.4 20.6

2006 21 19.9 309.4 17.8
2007 11 20.0 346.3 19.1
2008 7 24.7 381.9 22.1*

*Based on current trend I doubt very much this team maintains these numbers through the rest of the year.

An interesting note was that only 2007 (+1) and 2005 (+20) did we come out ahead in the turnover margin.

Kubiak did all that without Cutler or any of the stable of young players we have now. He did it with an aging Rod Smith, Ashley Lelie, and Jake Plummer. I think its safe to say that we miss Kubiak.

And the comment about immaturity still leads me to the same conclusion because I think Kubiak did a better job coaching in one-on-one situations. How else do you explain how good Plummer played for Denver up until 2006? Plummer wasn't magnificent, but Kubes got the most out of him (75% winning pctg) that he could. I think Cutler's development would be 2x better at this point with Kubes.

[bronco militia]

Our defense in 2002-2006 had good players and finished high in stats every year, but ended up giving up crucial game losing drives way too often. In 2002, the Broncos were the only team in NFL history to have a top 10 defense and offense and not make the playoffs. In 2003, 04 and 06 the defense had top 10 stats and were as good as the 1996-8 defenses in yards, points and first downs. They just choked at the worst times too often.

We had good defenses for that stretch, and only really took advantage of it in 2005. But still the defense had it's worst performance of the year in playoff losses in 2003,04 and 05. The 2002 team should've been 12-4 but lost 4 unloseable games while only winning 1 they shouldn't have, and missed the postseason on a tiebraker.

I agree...

[hambone13]

we usually start fast in a game and then stumble at the end..
This is happening frequently..

My theory is that we wont adjust in 2nd half of the game(similar to the season).

Wow, incredibly insightful oh Knower of the Known. Geez....

[hambone13]

We fixed our quarterback problem - but Jay is still an immature kid on an immature team - one without a defense worth speaking of. A defense like this needs an ass-kicking coach with a mean streak. Instead we've got a brainiac strategist who couldn't motivate a fat kid to eat a cup cake. It's too bad we sent our ass-kicker packing for Tampa Bay.

Amen Brother.....Amen

[rugbythug]

People are looking at this a little Wrong IMO.

We start Fast in the Season and in Games because we are out coaching other teams. We don't Fade. We come back down to earth. Our Players our not as good as other teams. Our talent level is better measured by the mid and late parts of the season. Shanny's Offensive Accumen is what puts us up in the first quarter of both games and the season.

[Beantown Bronco]

In 2002, the Broncos were the only team in NFL history to have a top 10 defense and offense and not make the playoffs.

*cough* special teams *cough*

But still the defense had it's worst performance of the year in playoff losses in 2003,04 and 05.

That's because, in 2003 and 2004 in particular, the defenses that we fielded in the playoffs were very different personnel-wise than they were during the regular season. Roc Alexander ring any bells?

[Popps]

*cough* special teams *cough*



That's because, in 2003 and 2004 in particular, the defenses that we fielded in the playoffs were very different personnel-wise than they were during the regular season. Roc Alexander ring any bells?

Still, you have to understand his point.... and I have a hard time putting that game squarely on the shoulders of Roc Alexander. Trevor Pryce played in that game and he was absolutely invisible. Just because he wasn't getting face-time on camera doesn't mean he wasn't as culpable as Roc Alexander.

A team shouldn't fall apart to the tune of a playoff record points given up in a half because you're missing one player, or even two.

We can nitpick his post, but I think you have to admit that the overall theme seems to hold true almost every season. He's painted a pretty impressive statistical picture to back it up.

[bronco militia]

Still, you have to understand his point.... and I have a hard time putting that game squarely on the shoulders of Roc Alexander. Trevor Pryce played in that game and he was absolutely invisible. Just because he wasn't getting face-time on camera doesn't mean he wasn't as culpable as Roc Alexander.

A team shouldn't fall apart to the tune of a playoff record points given up in a half because you're missing one player, or even two.

We can nitpick his post, but I think you have to admit that the overall theme seems to hold true almost every season. He's painted a pretty impressive statistical picture to back it up.


yep.....everyone likes to forget why Coyer was fired. Of course it doesn't help that his 'successors' have faired worse.

[Popps]

yep.....everyone likes to forget why Coyer was fired. Of course it doesn't help that his 'successors' have faired worse.

Yea, Coyer's defenses broke down in big games to the tune of record numbers.
We were a disaster.

Was it better than now? Sure.

But was that Coyer or was that a result of having a bunch more talent?

Anyone who thinks this current roster is more talented than the ones Coyer worked with just isn't paying attention.

[Beantown Bronco]

All I know is this....when faced with the choice of being lit up by just the best teams in the league for half the year or being lit up by everyone all season long......I'll take door #1.

[bronco militia]

All I know is this....when faced with the choice of being lit up by just the best teams in the league for half the year or being lit up by everyone all season long......I'll take door #1.


I don't want either option.....

the next guy better have the power to replace any coach on the current defensive coaching staff

[WolfpackGuy]

Our defense in 2002-2006 had good players and finished high in stats every year, but ended up giving up crucial game losing drives way too often. In 2002, the Broncos were the only team in NFL history to have a top 10 defense and offense and not make the playoffs. In 2003, 04 and 06 the defense had top 10 stats and were as good as the 1996-8 defenses in yards, points and first downs. They just choked at the worst times too often.

We had good defenses for that stretch, and only really took advantage of it in 2005. But still the defense had it's worst performance of the year in playoff losses in 2003,04 and 05. The 2002 team should've been 12-4 but lost 4 unloseable games while only winning 1 they shouldn't have, and missed the postseason on a tiebraker.

Ah, the final revenge of Dan Reeves. That reminds me of Warrick Dunn getting stuffed repeatedly at the goalline at the end of the Falcons/Browns game in Week 17 that year. The Browns losing was the final tiebreaker the Broncos needed.

[Eldorado]

Yea, Coyer's defenses broke down in big games to the tune of record numbers.
We were a disaster.

Was it better than now? Sure.

But was that Coyer or was that a result of having a bunch more talent?

Anyone who thinks this current roster is more talented than the ones Coyer worked with just isn't paying attention.

Al wilson.

[bombay]

I sometimes wonder if Cutler isn't more interested in being cool than winning at times.

[BroncoBuff]

2001: start 3-1, finish 5-7
2002: start 6-2, finish 3-5
2003: start 5-1, finish 5-6
2004: start 5-1, finish 5-6
2005: start 5-1, finish 8-2
2006: start 5-1, finish 4-6
2007: start 2-0, finish 5-9
2008: start 3-0, 1-3 since
That's a striking list ...

[alkemical]

I have the answer:

We need more orange. We need to please the sun god in the cold months of winter, to bring us to springtime.

[BroncoBuff]

I can't blame coordinators or assistants or game plans or even personnel... I think it's Shanahan's mindset and approach: When "all things are equal," that is, before the season starts, he is a master of planning and approach. But when the battlefield changes, when once good opponents are bad, and bad opponents are good; when key performers disappoint, and unknown quantities excel; when changes in the game plan are indicated on the fly ... pass vs. run mix for example, he seems too stubborn.

One small example this year: Selvin was averaging what, 7 yards a carry? But he stubbornly insisted on continuing the silly 3-in/3-out rotation with Andre Hall. He's not nimble in the clinch .... he doesn't alter his approach very easily or very quickly when circumstances indicate he should, or when the battlefield changes.

[Punisher]

I'd start with:

Larsen at MLB Love it
Barrett at SS Love it
Woodyard at WLB Love it
Love it
I'm Lovin it :)

[Eldorado]

I can't blame coordinators or assistants or game plans or even personnel... I think it's Shanahan's mindset and approach: When "all things are equal," that is, before the season starts, he is a master of planning and approach. But when the battlefield changes, when once good opponents are bad, and bad opponents are good; when key performers disappoint, and unknown quantities excel; when changes in the game plan are indicated on the fly ... pass vs. run mix for example, he seems too stubborn.

One small example this year: Selvin was averaging what, 7 yards a carry? But he stubbornly insisted on continuing the silly 3-in/3-out rotation with Andre Hall. He's not nimble in the clinch .... he doesn't alter his approach very easily or very quickly when circumstances indicate he should, or when the battlefield changes.


And it still didn't keep that frail little turd (Selvin) healthy. And what the **** does 'nimble in the clinch' mean? Sounds like something a hooker would use as a selling point.

[BroncoBuff]

And it still didn't keep that frail little turd (Selvin) healthy. And what the **** does 'nimble in the clinch' mean? Sounds like something a hooker would use as a selling point.
LOL

No, it just seems he sticks too closely to the plan even in the 2nd half ... it was just an idea. I see the same kinds of plays in the second half that I see in the first half, week in, week out. There never seems to be a change in approach, whereas Belichick is well-known for halftime scheme-changes.

Examples are, a) misdirection/reverses, b) screen passes, c) throwing deep. All three of those types of plays are either IN the game plan or NOT. You never see us suddenly go bombs away in the middle of the 3rd quarter, or suddenly screen after screen after screen starting in the second half. Reeves used to go to and away from screens quarter to quarter with good results.

And there's too much Marshall sometimes. Like it or not, everybody know about him. I for one would have thrown to Royal until he dropped Monday Night ... their corners are kinda weak, and the best one is on Marshall. Kinda the inverse of the Champ Bailey effect.

[mhgaffney]

OK. Time to get this of my chest.

Two games back -- we saw a couple of HUGE plays by DE Reggie Hayward. He caused Cutler to fumble and made another big defensive play later in the game.

As we know, Denver is hurting really bad at DE -- yet Hayward started his career as a Bronco. So how did he get away? Why did the FO let him go?

This is NOT a lone case. We've seen others, i.e., Bertram Berry and Trevor Pryce. What good does it do to draft talent -- and then see it walk out the door?

I also have another beef:

Someone please sit Brandon Marshall down and make this kid learn how to play football. He makes way way way too many mistakes. In the last game at NE we saw WHY Randy Moss is the best WR in the NFL.

Sure Marshall is a better physical specimen -- but Moss is a very smart FB player. He is always in the right place to make the play.

Can this kind of FB smarts be taught?

I certainly hope so for Denver's sake.

[Beantown Bronco]

OK. Time to get this of my chest.

Two games back -- we saw a couple of HUGE plays by DE Reggie Hayward. He caused Cutler to fumble and made another big defensive play later in the game..

Neither play was behind the line of scrimmage. Any DE in the league could've made them.....they really weren't that special. If Cutler actually holds the ball anywhere close to his body, all it is is a tackle 5 yards downfield. That's an Engleberger special.

As we know, Denver is hurting really bad at DE -- yet Hayward started his career as a Bronco. So how did he get away? Why did the FO let him go?

This is NOT a lone case. We've seen others, i.e., Bertram Berry and Trevor Pryce. What good does it do to draft talent -- and then see it walk out the door?

We've talked about this 1,000 times. Berry, Hayward and Pryce had to go. None were worth what they signed for immediately upon leaving Denver and none have had more than one great season since leaving.

[Beantown Bronco]

I also have another beef:

Someone please sit Brandon Marshall down and make this kid learn how to play football. He makes way way way too many mistakes. In the last game at NE we saw WHY Randy Moss is the best WR in the NFL.

I don't know what you're watching, but Marshall didn't make any mistakes in that game....

And if Moss is the best WR in the NFL, then why was he shut out until Champ left the field? The best finds a way to get it done against the best. Moss proved he couldn't do that.

[WolfpackGuy]

Denver WAS NOT going to keep Hayward for the kind of money JAX is giving him. I don't watch the Jags much, but I bet that forced fumble was easily in the top 3 plays of the entire Reggie Hayward as a Jaguar Experience.

[yavoon]

I don't know what you're watching, but Marshall didn't make any mistakes in that game....

And if Moss is the best WR in the NFL, then why was he shut out until Champ left the field? The best finds a way to get it done against the best. Moss proved he couldn't do that.

your logical paradox has just caused my head to explode.

[bloodsunday]

1999: start 0-4, finish 6-6.
2000: start 4-4, finish 7-1. This was the best finish to a season
2001: start 3-1, finish 5-7
2002: start 6-2, finish 3-5
2003: start 5-1, finish 5-6 including playoffs
2004: start 5-1, finish 5-6 including playoffs
2005: start 5-1, finish 8-2
2006: start 5-1, finish 4-6 (also started 7-2 and finished 2-5)
2007: pretty bad year after a 2-0 start
2008: start 3-0, 1-3 since. 38 ppg first 3 games, 15 ppg last 4.

People are all assuming that this is talent versus coaching ... meaning we can "out-coach" teams early on in the season. I certainly think there is an element to that, but I think there are other contributing factors:

1) We have no identity ... the first few weeks of the season teams are still searching for an identity and you can squeeze out wins (see Buffalo and Oakland early last year). But now we've settled into week 8 and what kind of team are we? In fact, this is really symptomatic of Shanahan's career post Elway and TD. He fires coaches like clock-work (primarily on D), he shuffles systems even mid-season. (I mean he didn't even give Bate's D more than about 8 games before he decided to trash it despite turning over the entire roster to try and make it work). Each year the roster is over-hauled in a desperate attempt to win another Super Bowl even though we aren't really all that close. He can't settle on a QB. I am as thrilled as anyone about Cutler (here comes the BUT), but we were winning with Plummer. We proved we could do it in 2005. And just when the team makes the AFC title game, we short circuit the whole thing and go to a rookie? I mean who does that?

2) I don't think we have very much mental toughness and that starts with #1 above. The first few games of the year injuries are a rarely a problem. However, injuries hit us harder than most teams because we make an excuse out of it. I saw New England play Troy Freakn' Brown at DB and win a Super Bowl. Is a backfield with Sammy Morris and Javious-Greene better than anything we trot out? Yet we complain about it and New England just moves on. If your goal is to win the Super Bowl every year then you better be prepared to overcome more than one obstacle along the way. Don't complain about bad calls, injuries, or other bad breaks. Each game has at least half a dozen opportunities to change the momentum/outcome. Make more plays in those half a dozen attempts.

3) Our "system" sucks. This is the area that probably contributes most to the idea that we out-coach teams early on. I've been making this point since I joined the Mane with little support, but teams that win consistently do 2 things: 1) they draft well and 2) they typically build their team from the line of scrimmage out. We generally don't invest high picks in our OL or DL in the draft and have been awful at cultivating prospects for those positions later in the draft (at least on D). In particular I think its important to have young players on D because defense is much more about speed, hustle, and toughness. By building our D from other's left over parts we end up with an expensive, injury-prone, and one-step-too-slow defense. While we get good mileage out of our OL (and seem to have two great young tackles at the moment) our finesse style of O kills us in the redzone. We are a terrible team at running in the redzone and that equates to a poor redzone conversion rate. Plus a lack of a sure-fire run game makes third down tougher, closing games tougher, and helps perpetuate the lack of an identity.

4) We are lousy on special teams and in the turnover margin and that usually comes back to bite you during the course of a season.