Pop the cork. It's over...

[Taco John]

I'm going to go ahead and call it...


:thanku:

[TheDave]

Now were ****ed...

[Odysseus]

Ah Shiite on a shingle!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Wasn't it TJ who picked Obama to be the '08 Dem front runner four years ago?

Or was that someone else?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm going to go ahead and call it...


:thanku:

Barring a "terrorist" attack or the capture of Bin Laden.

[Paladin]

Even the capture of Bin Laden would not turn the tide this late in the game.

[Taco John]

Wasn't it TJ who picked Obama to be the '08 Dem front runner four years ago?

Or was that someone else?



That was definitely me. I said it after his speech at the Dem convention.

[kappys]

That was definitely me. I said it after his speech at the Dem convention.

I thought you said 2012?

[SJ Bronco]

I'm going to go ahead and call it...


:thanku:

Time of death 7:35 PST

Can the attending close up please?!Booya!

[Drek]

Barring a "terrorist" attack or the capture of Bin Laden.

I don't think that would even do it.

Finally capturing Bin Laden would look like a disgusting political ploy to a good chunk of this country, and the rest of the people not delusional enough to be in Bush's 20-30% of supporters would just view it as "well, one less thing to worry about, too bad the economy is still ****".

As for another attack on U.S. soil, I think McCain is losing ground in that area as he looks more and more trigger happy and Obama looks like the iceman cometh. People don't want another "goin' with my gut" president after the debacle of the last 8 years. They want someone who will respond to crisis better than all of us do. Calm, collected, and in control. Thats Obama to a 'T' and it'll lead him to victory short of something truly unforseen.

[cutthemdown]

Allah help us

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I don't think that would even do it.

Finally capturing Bin Laden would look like a disgusting political ploy to a good chunk of this country, and the rest of the people not delusional enough to be in Bush's 20-30% of supporters would just view it as "well, one less thing to worry about, too bad the economy is still ****".

As for another attack on U.S. soil, I think McCain is losing ground in that area as he looks more and more trigger happy and Obama looks like the iceman cometh. People don't want another "goin' with my gut" president after the debacle of the last 8 years. They want someone who will respond to crisis better than all of us do. Calm, collected, and in control. Thats Obama to a 'T' and it'll lead him to victory short of something truly unforseen.

You're probably right.

So far, all of McSame's stunts, charades, and dirty politics have only registered with the ditto monkey base who vote rethug no matter what anyway.

[baja]

My hope is Obama will shine the light of day on all of the misdeeds of the Bush administration. America and the world needs the cleansing the truth would bring.

[cutthemdown]

My hope is Obama will shine the light of day on all of the misdeeds of the Bush administration. America and the world needs the cleansing the truth would bring.

Obama won't waste his time.

[Drek]

My hope is Obama will shine the light of day on all of the misdeeds of the Bush administration. America and the world needs the cleansing the truth would bring.

Can't happen without a senate majority near or at 2/3rds. Otherwise the moral conservatives who still have their heads up Bush's ass will whine and filibuster all damn day long, making even the simplest resolutions a chore to pass.

[Rohirrim]

We are an Obamanation!!!




Wait. That didn't come out right. ;D

[kappys]

My hope is Obama will shine the light of day on all of the misdeeds of the Bush administration. America and the world needs the cleansing the truth would bring.

Well someone is in for a bit of a downer then I suspect.

[theAPAOps5]

Great now McTwitch will win. Obama just got the TJ kiss of death.

[bronco militia]

My hope is Obama will shine the light of day on all of the misdeeds of the Bush administration. America and the world needs the cleansing the truth would bring.

Ha!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Caption this:

http://www.pensitoreview.com/images/photo-deprbate3-mcprcain-tongue.jpg

[TailgateNut]

Caption this:

http://www.pensitoreview.com/images/photo-deprbate3-mcprcain-tongue.jpg


Eating **** all night makes me want to churf.

[Odysseus]

Caption this:

http://www.pensitoreview.com/images/photo-deprbate3-mcprcain-tongue.jpg

Want to know how I got this smile?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.pensitoreview.com/images/photo-deprbate3-mcprcain-tongue.jpg
"Wait, President Obama, sir! Will lick boots for power - I'm a maverick!"

[theAPAOps5]

Caption this:

http://www.pensitoreview.com/images/photo-deprbate3-mcprcain-tongue.jpg

"Hey McCain tell me how my ass tastes."

[Pseudofool]

http://www.pensitoreview.com/images/photo-deprbate3-mcprcain-tongue.jpg
Bullsh** has a surprisingly bad taste.

[TailgateNut]

http://www.pensitoreview.com/images/photo-deprbate3-mcprcain-tongue.jpg
Bullsh** has a surprisingly bad taste.

Maybe he should stop swallowing his vomit!

[Old Dude]

Obama campaign considers expansion into W.Va, Kentucky, Georgia & N. Dakota.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14624.html

Hard to imagine that Kentucky could be in play, but Obama was within 10 or 12 points there prior to the crash.

[Traveler]

While we all know this election isn't over, I thought this article was interesting...

Steven G. Brant
Posted October 16, 2008 | 01:23 AM (EST)

When It All Falls Down

We all learn from the nursery rhyme "Humpty "Dumpty" that "all the King's horse and all the King's men couldn't put Humpty together again."

I believe we are living through the Great Collapse. The collapse of free market capitalism. The collapse of the doctrine of warfare between nations as an acceptable foreign policy tool. And the collapse of "every man for himself" / " having power over others is the way to live" political values. And nothing is going to put this world view - this mindset - back together again.

(Oh, I was tempted to write "Republican values" rather than "political values", but I know that some Democrats have enjoyed having power over others, too.)

So, as I watched John McCain fail to beat Barack Obama in the final debate and started to think about how Barack Obama just might win the election, my mind went to how all the people who still believe in the values inherent in free market capitalism, warfare, and domination over others are going to take losing it all.

Not well.

That's the answer I got.

I think I got that because the Republicans are laying the groundwork for being able to claim that the election was stolen. (Did you hear John McCain say in the debate that ACORN is "destroying the fabric of our democracy"?)

Or maybe it's because I saw Senator Orrin Hatch being interviewed on MSNBC on Wednesday, and he made the ludicrous claim that if Barack Obama wins the presidency the unions "will take over America." I kid you not. And he might as well have been saying "Communists" rather than "unions," for the fear you could hear in his voice.

Or maybe it's because I hear there are people who claim Barack Obama is the anti-Christ.

Of maybe it's the pastor who gave the invocation before a McCain event in which he prayed to God to show the other Gods that he is the bigger God by making sure McCain wins... because people who pray to those other Gods all want Obama to win. (Keith Olbermann showed this video the other day.)

You see, if Barack Obama ushers in a "new American Century" based on such great American principles as "All people are created equal" and that we are really the "United States" not the divided states... coupled with such religious beliefs as "Love thy neighbor," this will -- literally -- be the "end of days" for people who believe in hate, divisiveness, and domination.

And I just worry that they won't let their word view die without a fight.

I know it's a crazy thought. But America is filled with some pretty crazy people. (Hey, it's a big country!)

So.... what to do?

Well... I think I'll start by calling Senator Hatch's office and asking if I can talk to him about his fears that "the unions" are going to take over the country. (I actually met Senator Hatch through a mutual friend a number of years ago. So, maybe I'll be able to get through to him. We'll see.)

And I recommend that all of you start thinking about being compassionate to those you know who are about to suffer this great loss too. Maybe to strangers as well.

This is no joke. We really need to let these people know that it's going to be okay to live in a world where you empower people rather than having power over people. A world where you focus on what's best about people... on your common ground with other people... rather than what divides you. A world where we think in terms of everyone making it rather than just some. (You know... bye bye social Darwinism.)

This is how Barack Obama is planning to govern. In fact, he made a reference to this during the debate. And I expect he'll do all he can - probably through a number of great speeches - to lay out the principles of collaborative governance, so we'll understand what he wants to do.

But it's going to take the rest of us reaching out -- one person at a time -- to help all of those "fighters" out there learn how to live in a world where the "first response" will be to work with each other rather than to fight. (And this includes reaching out to "fighting Democrats.)

Given that we may be about to enter the Great Depression of the 21st Century, we're really going to need to all pull together... otherwise our nation (and the world) may really all fall down.

-----------------------------

Addendum:

I forgot to mention that John McCain himself said in the debate that ACORN's actions are "destroying the fabric of our democracy". To me, this sounds like the words of yet another person who sees his world being "destroyed." I sure hope someone is able to talk Senator McCain down from the depression it appears he's headed for if Senator Obama wins.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-g-brant/when-it-all-falls-down_b_135108.html

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

(Did you hear John McCain say in the debate that ACORN is "destroying the fabric of our democracy"?)

Yep - but what I didn't hear was McTwitch mentioning that he was the keynote speaker at ACORN's 2006 rally. :laugh:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I believe we are living through the Great Collapse. The collapse of free market capitalism. The collapse of the doctrine of warfare between nations as an acceptable foreign policy tool. And the collapse of "every man for himself" / " having power over others is the way to live" political values. And nothing is going to put this world view - this mindset - back together again.



Amen.

Very well put! :thumbsup:

[Rohirrim]

Frankly, I think the next three weeks will be the most dangerous. It's going to start sinking in, even into the thickest troglodyte skull, that Obama represents the end of their era. God is not handing America over to the fanatics. The American Taliban will not be getting the power they long to exercise over the rest of the country. We're headed in a different direction. I hope the Secret Service is at the top of their game.

[Hotrod]

Um Fox news said that 87% feel McCain won the debate.

[Dudeskey]

Yep - but what I didn't hear was McTwitch mentioning that he was the keynote speaker at ACORN's 2006 rally. :laugh:

Ain't that about a bitch...™

[Old Dude]

4 new rasmussen polls (taken on 10/13) and released today:

Kansas McCain 54-41
New Mexico Obama 55-42
Mass. Obama 62-34
Illinois Obama 56-39

[Dudeskey]

http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/mccain2.jpg

[Rohirrim]

Um Fox news said that 87% feel McCain won the debate.

That's a real shocker. ZZZ...

[Hotrod]

That's a real shocker. ZZZ...

They are the most watched network in TV news.

I guess some people dont care for fair and balanced news but most apparently do.

[Rohirrim]

They are the most watched network in TV news.

I guess some people dont care for fair and balanced news but most apparently do.

I think they are more on the "entertainment" side of the equation,

http://impiousdigest.com/Michelle_Malkin2.gif

rather than the "news" side. As all Murdoch properties are.

[TailgateNut]

They are the most watched network in TV news.

I guess some people dont care for fair and balanced news but most apparently do.


:spit: Using "Fair and balanced" in regards to Fox is akin to using balanced in regard to our nations' budget.

[frerottenextelway]

Um Fox news said that 87% feel McCain won the debate.

That's an online poll - worthless. That would be like having a ''favorite team'' poll taken on the Jacksonville Times website then declaring the Jaguars ''America's Team'' after they won it.

Real polls are done by random samples - such as randomly calling people in America and asking who their ''favorite team is''. That will get you accurate results. Polls done by that method showed Obama won the debate 2-1.

[Paladin]

Faux News is what I think of when I need to take a dump.....

[Pseudofool]

Faux News is what I think of when I need to take a dump.....
Hannity, Hannity. ::plop::

[Hotrod]

haters

[Paladin]

haters

Nope. Realists.

[Hotrod]

Nope. Realists.

I dont see socialists selling out the very foundation that made America great as realists but hey to each their own I guess.

[Rohirrim]

I dont see socialists selling out the very foundation that made America great as realists but hey to each their own I guess.

As soon as we've imposed our socialist regime we're coming after you. :-*

Also, we'll be putting PETA in charge of the Interior so, no fish for you! Ha!

[NaptownChief]

Here is a little research from you liberals close friend Ann Coulter. While I still think Big Ears Obama wins it, I do think it is going to be a heck of a lot closer than the liberal media would like us all to believe.



Reviewing the polls printed in The New York Times and The Washington Post in the last month of every presidential election since 1976, I found the polls were never wrong in a friendly way to Republicans. When the polls were wrong, which was often, they overestimated support for the Democrat, usually by about 6 to 10 points.

In 1976, Jimmy Carter narrowly beat Gerald Ford 50.1 percent to 48 percent. And yet, on Sept. 1, Carter led Ford by 15 points. Just weeks before the election, on Oct. 16, 1976, Carter led Ford in the Gallup Poll by 6 percentage points -- down from his 33-point Gallup Poll lead in August.

Reading newspaper coverage of presidential elections in 1980 and 1984, I found myself paralyzed by the fear that Reagan was going to lose.

In 1980, Ronald Reagan beat Carter by nearly 10 points, 51 percent to 41 percent. In a Gallup Poll released days before the election on Oct. 27, it was Carter who led Reagan 45 percent to 42 percent.

In 1984, Reagan walloped Walter Mondale 58.8 percent to 40 percent, -- the largest electoral landslide in U.S. history. But on Oct. 15, The New York Daily News published a poll showing Mondale with only a 4-point deficit to Reagan, 45 percent to 41 percent. A Harris Poll about the same time showed Reagan with only a 9-point lead. The Oct. 19 New York Times/CBS News Poll had Mr. Reagan ahead of Mondale by 13 points. All these polls underestimated Reagan's actual margin of victory by 6 to 15 points.

In 1988, George H.W. Bush beat Michael Dukakis by a whopping 53.4 percent to 45.6 percent. A New York Times/CBS News Poll on Oct. 5 had Bush leading the Greek homunculus by a statistically insignificant 2 points -- 45 percent to 43 percent. (For the kids out there: Before it became a clearinghouse for anti-Bush conspiracy theories, CBS News was considered a credible journalistic entity.)

A week later -- or one tank ride later, depending on who's telling the story -- on Oct. 13, Bush was leading Dukakis in The New York Times Poll by a mere 5 points.

Admittedly, a 3- to 6-point error is not as crazily wrong as the 6- to 15-point error in 1984. But it's striking that even small "margin of error" mistakes never seem to benefit Republicans.

In 1992, Bill Clinton beat the first President Bush 43 percent to 37.7 percent. (Ross Perot got 18.9 percent of Bush's voters that year.) On Oct. 18, a Newsweek Poll had Clinton winning 46 percent to 31 percent, and a CBS News Poll showed Clinton winning 47 percent to 35 percent.

So in 1992, the polls had Clinton 12 to 15 points ahead, but he won by only 5.3 points.

In 1996, Bill Clinton beat Bob Dole 49 percent to 40 percent. And yet on Oct. 22, 1996, The New York Times/CBS News Poll showed Clinton leading by a massive 22 points, 55 percent to 33 percent.

In 2000, which I seem to recall as being fairly close, the October polls accurately described the election as a virtual tie, with either Bush or Al Gore 1 or 2 points ahead in various polls. But in one of the latest polls to give either candidate a clear advantage, The New York Times/CBS News Poll on Oct. 3, 2000, showed Gore winning by 45 percent to 39 percent.

In the last presidential election the polls were surprisingly accurate -- not including the massively inaccurate Election Day exit poll. In the end, Bush beat John Kerry 50.7 percent to 48.3 percent in 2004. Most of the October polls showed the candidates in a dead-heat, with Bush 1 to 3 points ahead. So either pollsters got a whole lot better starting in 2004, or Democrats stole more votes in that election than we even realized.

[Hotrod]

As soon as we've imposed our socialist regime we're coming after you. :-*

Also, we'll be putting PETA in charge of the Interior so, no fish for you! Ha!

LOL you are scaring away the fish

The way I see it there is nothing left to really talk about as far as the presidential race. It is over if I like it or not.

[cutthemdown]

As soon as we've imposed our socialist regime we're coming after you. :-*

Also, we'll be putting PETA in charge of the Interior so, no fish for you! Ha!

Damn no fishing would stink.

[Old Dude]

Here is a little research from you liberals close friend Ann Coulter. While I still think Big Ears Obama wins it, I do think it is going to be a heck of a lot closer than the liberal media would like us all to believe.
...


If Big Nose Coulter sees it close then we can go ahead and call it a blowout. She's consistently as wrong about everything as anyone could ever be.

Some Coulertisms:

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity.

The swing voters -- I like to refer to them as the idiot voters because they don't have set philosophical principles. You're either a liberal or you're a conservative if you have an IQ above a toaster.

If I'm going to say anything about John Edwards in the future, I'll just wish he had been killed in a terrorist assassination plot.

If we took away women's right to vote, we'd never have to worry about another Democrat president.

My libertarian friends are probably getting a little upset now but I think that's because they never appreciate the benefits of local fascism.

The Great Satan is wearying of this reverse hegemony, in which little pipsqueak nations try to impose their pipsqueak values on us. Aren't we the ones who should be arrogantly oppressing countries that unaccountably do not have the death penalty?

I think the government should be spying on all Arabs, engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport, dropping daisy cutters wantonly throughout the Middle East and sending liberals to Guantanamo.

Perhaps we could put aside our national, ongoing, post-9/11 Muslim butt-kissing contest and get on with the business at hand: Bombing Syria back to the stone age and then permanently disarming Iran.

....

Call me slow, but I just don't think she's all that in tune with moderate independent voters.

[Hotrod]

If Big Nose Coulter sees it close then we can go ahead and call it a blowout. She's consistently as wrong about everything as anyone could ever be.

Some Coulertisms:

We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity.

The swing voters -- I like to refer to them as the idiot voters because they don't have set philosophical principles. You're either a liberal or you're a conservative if you have an IQ above a toaster.

If I'm going to say anything about John Edwards in the future, I'll just wish he had been killed in a terrorist assassination plot.

If we took away women's right to vote, we'd never have to worry about another Democrat president.

My libertarian friends are probably getting a little upset now but I think that's because they never appreciate the benefits of local fascism.

The Great Satan is wearying of this reverse hegemony, in which little pipsqueak nations try to impose their pipsqueak values on us. Aren't we the ones who should be arrogantly oppressing countries that unaccountably do not have the death penalty?

I think the government should be spying on all Arabs, engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport, dropping daisy cutters wantonly throughout the Middle East and sending liberals to Guantanamo.

Perhaps we could put aside our national, ongoing, post-9/11 Muslim butt-kissing contest and get on with the business at hand: Bombing Syria back to the stone age and then permanently disarming Iran.

....

Call me slow, but I just don't think she's all that in tune with moderate independent voters.

Well you have to admit the lady speaks her mind.

[NaptownChief]

....

Call me slow, but I just don't think she's all that in tune with moderate independent voters.



I'm with you on that but her research on polling numbers definitely lends to the fact this is probably a lot closer than we are led to believe at the moment.

[Drek]

I'm with you on that but her research on polling numbers definitely lends to the fact this is probably a lot closer than we are led to believe at the moment.

You want to see real research into polling data? Go check out 538.com.

Nate Silver serves up the hits on Baseball Prospectus, now he's doing the same on 538 with easily the best statistical aggregation method politics have ever seen.

[NaptownChief]

You want to see real research into polling data? Go check out 538.com.

Nate Silver serves up the hits on Baseball Prospectus, now he's doing the same on 538 with easily the best statistical aggregation method politics have ever seen.



Thanks for the link but I didn't find any analysis on there, just links to other sites. Am I overlooking something? Thx

[ak1971]

Thanks for the link but I didn't find any analysis on there, just links to other sites. Am I overlooking something? Thx

************.com

[ScottXray]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-10-13-poll-economy_N.htm

A slight way down on the left side of the page is a graphic of where the polls were 3 weeks before the election, for the last few elections. Only ONE was wrong in deciding the winner of the election. (Carter v Reagan)


McCain is toast, if this holds true again, since he is the one behind by 7 points, and virtually all the trends are for Obama to INCREASE the lead, and even penetrate the previously Red states that McCain must hold. Unless some game changer comes along between now and Nov 4, I would think the numbers are pretty significant, as Obama is holding to over 50% in many of the polls.

Obama will win.

[Taco John]

Intrade has dropped McCain to 15%.

It's getting ugly.


<object width="500" height="500"><param name="movie" value="http://content.intrade.com/flash/us08/partner/loader.swf"/><param name="base" value="http://content.intrade.com/flash/us08/partner/"/><embed src="http://content.intrade.com/flash/us08/partner/loader.swf" base="http://content.intrade.com/flash/us08/partner/" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="500" height="500"/></object>

[Old Dude]

Gallup, which had Obama up by double digits a couple days ago, shows he fell to a 6 point margin on a Monday-Wednesday survey (concluded before the final debate).

http://www.gallup.com/poll/111211/Gallup-Daily-Obama-49-McCain-43.aspx

Under the "traditional" model of most likely voters, they indicate that it could be as close as 2 points.

It will be interesting to see what effect the debate (and Wednesday stock plunge) had.

[Taco John]

Gallup has flipped. Not only is their traditional likely voter model worthless, but I heard that they also adjust for the faux Bradley effect.

[Drek]

Thanks for the link but I didn't find any analysis on there, just links to other sites. Am I overlooking something? Thx

I actually wasn't looking to provide a link, I guess I made the erroneous assumption that everyone who follows presidential politics closely had heard of the site.

The address is actually

www.fivethirtyeight.com

[peacepipe]

Can't happen without a senate majority near or at 2/3rds. Otherwise the moral conservatives who still have their heads up Bush's ass will whine and filibuster all damn day long, making even the simplest resolutions a chore to pass.
To be filibuster proof you just need 60 dems,you need 2/3rds to amend the constitution.

[barryr]

If it's close, ACORN will make the difference. Will be interesting it it's close, if the same bozos that claimed Bush and his buddies stole two elections with no no clear evidence in 8 years will worry about voter fraud in this one when there is blatant evidence. I guess will be ok as long as their guy gets in I suppose.

[stugotsII]

Whoever wins the election, the other side will cry foul...especially if Obama wins...

The right will be whinning like there is no tomorrow.

[Spider]

Well you have to admit the lady speaks her mind.

I wish Nappy would speak his mind ..... he would be a man of very few words ;D

[Play2win]

If it's close, ACORN will make the difference. Will be interesting it it's close, if the same bozos that claimed Bush and his buddies stole two elections with no no clear evidence in 8 years will worry about voter fraud in this one when there is blatant evidence. I guess will be ok as long as their guy gets in I suppose.

What do you truly have against this country, what do you have against this US of A, that you would still have any support for the republican party after ALL that has happened...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

If it's close, ACORN will make the difference. Will be interesting it it's close, if the same bozos that claimed Bush and his buddies stole two elections with no no clear evidence in 8 years will worry about voter fraud in this one when there is blatant evidence. I guess will be ok as long as their guy gets in I suppose.

You're living proof that facts don't matter to right-wingers.

The fake ACORN registration forms don't actually represent people who are going to vote on 11/4.

On the other hand...

Why is allowing people to vote so difficult? "The full 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati upheld a lower court ruling that Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner must use other government records to check thousands of new voters for registration fraud. A three-judge panel of the 6th Circuit had disagreed last week, but the full court's ruling overturns that decision." As many as 666,000 Ohioans may be affected. 10/16 (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/15/1710/8917/699/630868)

Will the GOP Steal Another Election in 2008? (http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/interviews/129)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

What do you truly have against this country, what do you have against this US of A, that you would still have any support for the republican party after ALL that has happened...

QFT. :thumbsup:

[Spider]

If it's close, ACORN will make the difference. Will be interesting it it's close, if the same bozos that claimed Bush and his buddies stole two elections with no no clear evidence in 8 years will worry about voter fraud in this one when there is blatant evidence. I guess will be ok as long as their guy gets in I suppose.thats it

[Spider]

What do you truly have against this country, what do you have against this US of A, that you would still have any support for the republican party after ALL that has happened...

there was all kinds of proof of voter fraud pulled by the republicans .. Cleveland Ohio A.K.A. Mistake by the lake

[Rohirrim]

If it's close, ACORN will make the difference. Will be interesting it it's close, if the same bozos that claimed Bush and his buddies stole two elections with no no clear evidence in 8 years will worry about voter fraud in this one when there is blatant evidence. I guess will be ok as long as their guy gets in I suppose.


Breaking with the talking points of his fellow Republicans in Washington, Florida Gov. Charlie Crist said he does not think voter fraud and the vote-registration group ACORN are a major problem in the Sunshine State. ''I think that there's probably less [fraud] than is being discussed. As we're coming into the closing days of any campaign, there are some who enjoy chaos,'' Crist told reporters.

[stugotsII]

there was all kinds of proof of voter fraud pulled by the republicans .. Cleveland Ohio A.K.A. Mistake by the lake

Voter fraud is prevelant on both sides.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Voter fraud is prevelant on both sides.

You haven't provided any evidence to support this.

Note: The phony ACORN smokescreen doesn't count.

[stugotsII]

You haven't provided any evidence to support this.

Note: The phony ACORN smokescreen doesn't count.

The FBI will be taking care of this.

[Rohirrim]

The FBI will be taking care of this.

Do you think the governor of Florida knows what is going on in his state?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The FBI will be taking care of this.

Translation:

Schmidt and McTwitch call in a favor to GeeDubya's DOJ.

The FBI "investigates."

The right-wing media jumps on it.

Suddenly it's a "story."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Do you think the governor of Florida knows what is going on in his state?

Ha!

Not if you listen to the right-wing spin merchants here.

[stugotsII]

Ha!

Not if you listen to the right-wing spin merchants here.

I think thats funny, coming from a left wing spin merchant.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I think thats funny, coming from a left wing spin merchant.

No need for spin here - everything is already going my way.

[Play2win]

Hannity, Hannity. ::plop::

Yeah, I just took a "Hannity"... Now, I'm really hungry... I think I better get some food... I think I'll call Dominos... ;D

[ZONA]

I think some people are confused as to what Acorn has or has not done.

The fact is, that when people turn in registrations, by law, they have turn every single one in. Now, they make 3 piles, lagit,incomplete, and question mark.

Just because people out there have turned in bad registrations doesn't mean it's fraud on Acorn. By law they have to submit those. Then they go through and weed the bad ones out.

So anybody who is watching news and just hears about Acorn fraud probably doesn't realize what actually is happening and then the spew off at the mouth as if they know something when in fact they don't know ****.



This thing is over. It might get a little closer at the National Poll but the electoral college polls by state, it's a landslide win. McCain can go back to the sentate with his tail between his legs and Palin can go back to Alaska and tell all those Hocky Moms how tough she was.

But you guys living in Colorado still better get out there and vote. That is a close state. Here in AZ there is no way my vote for Obama will count much for anything. But I am still gonna go vote, for my own conscience. I want to be a part of history.

:welcome:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I think some people are confused as to what Acorn has or has not done.

The fact is, that when people turn in registrations, by law, they have turn every single one in. Now, they make 3 piles, lagit,incomplete, and question mark.

Just because people out there have turned in bad registrations doesn't mean it's fraud on Acorn. By law they have to submit those. Then they go through and weed the bad ones out.

So anybody who is watching news and just hears about Acorn fraud probably doesn't realize what actually is happening and then the spew off at the mouth as if they know something when in fact they don't know ****.



This thing is over. It might get a little closer at the National Poll but the electoral college polls by state, it's a landslide win. McCain can go back to the sentate with his tail between his legs and Palin can go back to Alaska and tell all those Hocky Moms how tough she was.

:welcome:

Yep.

All of the above re: ACORN has been explained to the wingnuts repeatedly, but they go on repeating the same distortions, lies and smears just the same.

They know this Faux News tactic is their only remaining recourse - they certainly can't run on the issues or their party's record.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Irish Bookmaker Pays out on Obama as Next U.S. President 10/17 (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/irish-bookmaker-pays-out-obama/story.aspx?guid=%7BE2D45F9F-1DC9-46BD-B8B6-CF33C0E39F50%7D)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Quotes

"If the election took place this week, it would be a wipe out of major proportions. Even Arizona has to be classified as leaning toward Obama. McCain, as of now, can be certain of carrying just eight states with a combined total of only 36 electoral votes."

- Dick Morris (R) Link (http://w3.newsmax.com/a/morrismap/)

<center> http://www.bartcop.com/drunken-gop-polls.jpg
</center>

[cutthemdown]

Irish Bookmaker Pays out on Obama as Next U.S. President 10/17 (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/irish-bookmaker-pays-out-obama/story.aspx?guid=%7BE2D45F9F-1DC9-46BD-B8B6-CF33C0E39F50%7D)

that makes no sense. Why would any bookie want to pay before the result is final? Anything could happen, Obamas plane could crash, repubs could steal election, McCain could win outright in an upset surprise.

I agree it's looking almost like a certainty Obama will be our President but I still can't see the logic or the benefit to paying out early.

[Needa Pass Rush]

I think some people are confused as to what Acorn has or has not done.

The fact is, that when people turn in registrations, by law, they have turn every single one in. Now, they make 3 piles, lagit,incomplete, and question mark.

Just because people out there have turned in bad registrations doesn't mean it's fraud on Acorn. By law they have to submit those. Then they go through and weed the bad ones out.

So anybody who is watching news and just hears about Acorn fraud probably doesn't realize what actually is happening and then the spew off at the mouth as if they know something when in fact they don't know ****.



This thing is over. It might get a little closer at the National Poll but the electoral college polls by state, it's a landslide win. McCain can go back to the sentate with his tail between his legs and Palin can go back to Alaska and tell all those Hocky Moms how tough she was.

But you guys living in Colorado still better get out there and vote. That is a close state. Here in AZ there is no way my vote for Obama will count much for anything. But I am still gonna go vote, for my own conscience. I want to be a part of history.

:welcome:

Consider this, Zona.

The Houston Chronicle report on Acorn's efforts in Harris County, Texas:

About half of the 14,000 ACORN applications that were rejected in Harris County were missing required information such as the potential voter's address, date of birth and Texas driver's license number, said Paul Bettencourt, the county's voter registrar and tax assessor-collector. Another 3,800 applicants already were registered to vote.Bettencourt said his staff checked the voting rolls and did not find any obviously phony registered voters. His bigger concern is the time his staff wastes processing duplicate applications. By comparison, only four duplicates were found among 4,000 applications submitted by the League of Women voters, and five have been found in 3,300 applications submitted by the Harris County Democratic Party.If other organizations can do registration without these problems, why can't Acorn?

[Paladin]

Why?

Because they: "Go where no one has gone before!"

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Election Experts: McCain's Charges of Voter Fraud "Out of Proportion to Reality" <hr style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> http://a.abcnews.com/images/site/printlogo.jpg

McCain Acorn Fears Overblown
Charges of Voter Fraud Are Out of Proportion to Reality, They Say

By JUSTIN ROOD

Oct. 16, 2008—

Charges of potential vote fraud volleyed by Republicans, including Sen. John McCain himself, are out of proportion to reality, according to election experts.

The concerns raised by the Republican National Committee in daily conference calls with reporters, as well as by McCain himself in Wednesday's debate focus on the nonprofit group Acorn, whose nationwide voter registration efforts have garnered apparently fraudulent registration cards, some for fictional characters like "Mickey Mouse."

Acorn, whose registration efforts generally target poor neighborhoods, "is now on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy," McCain claimed last night, citing Sen. Barack Obama's ties to the group.

Obama reportedly worked with Acorn when he ran a Chicago-area voter registration drive shortly after graduating from law school, and conducted leadership training with the group. During the primaries, Obama's campaign paid an Acorn-affiliated group $800,000 for get-out-the-vote efforts, which reportedly did not include voter registration. The group's political arm has endorsed Obama's candidacy.

But McCain's voter fraud worries about Acorn or anyone else are unsupported by the facts, said experts on election fraud, who recall similar concerns being raised in several previous elections, despite a near-total absence of cases.

"There's no evidence that any of these invalid registrations lead to any invalid votes," said David Becker, project director of the "Make Voting Work" initiative for the Pew Charitable Trusts.

Becker should know: he was a lawyer for the Bush administration until 2005, in the Justice Department's voting rights section, which was part of the administration's aggressive anti-vote-fraud effort.

"The Justice Department really made prosecution of voter fraud of this sort a big priority in the first half of this decade, and they really didn't come up with anything," he said.

"We're chasing these ghosts of voter fraud, like chickens without a head," said Lorraine Minnite, a political science professor at Barnard College in New York who has researched voter fraud and fraud claims for most of the past decade. "I think it's completely overblown, I think it's meant to be a distraction."

"This stuff does not threaten the outcome of the election," said Minnite. "How many illegal ballots have been cast by people who are fraudulently registered to vote? By my count, it's zero. I just don't know of any, I've been looking for years for this stuff."

Vote Tampering and Fraud Sees Seven or Eight Convictions a Year, Says Expert

For all types of vote tampering and fraud, including vote buying, Minnite says the Justice Department has averaged seven or eight convictions a year.

Despite the experts' opinions, a McCain-Palin campaign spokesman reiterated that their concern was real. In cases like absentee voting, "there's no way of knowing whether [voters] are who they say they are," said the spokesman, who declined to be identified.

So far, one case of alleged vote fraud has been reported in this election: On Sept. 30, an Ohio man reportedly attempted to vote using the state's early-voting process, who registered under a fake address, according to the New York Post. However, the state's bipartisan election board was downplaying concerns over such fraud, according to the paper.

Acorn has defended its efforts by pointing out that it has reported "almost all" of the bogus cards itself, and noting that McCain had supported the group's efforts in other areas in the past. "Repeating a lie doesn't make it true," read a statement the group released last night in response to McCain's attack, "and the McCain campaign has resorted to the worst type of deceptions in regards to Acorn."

And while the RNC has labeled Acorn a "quasi-criminal group," not all Republicans share their party's concern. Florida Gov. Charlie Crist, whom McCain once reportedly considered as a running mate, told a reporter recently that he wasn't worried by Acorn's registration efforts in his state.

Even the non-partisan truth-in-politics Web site FactCheck.org called foul on McCain's alleged possible conspiracy, noting that a Republican prosecutor handling a key Acorn registration fraud case has said there's no evidence indicating the group was involved in vote fraud.

"This scheme was not intended to permit illegal voting," said King County, Wash. Prosecutor Dan Satterberg in a 2007 statement, after a federal-state investigation found seven Acorn workers had submitted over 1,700 bogus voter registration forms.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/print?id=6049529

Copyright © 2008 ABC News Internet Ventures

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Consider this, Zona.

The Houston Chronicle report on Acorn's efforts in Harris County, Texas:


Ha ha ha! Ha!

Watching the right contradict itself on ACORN at every turn is comical.

Last night, McFeral called ACORN a 'danger to our democracy' - yet he was the keynote speaker at ACORN's 2006 rally.

Which is it, John? ???

[NaptownChief]

Ha ha ha! Ha!

Watching the right contradict itself on ACORN at every turn is comical.

Last night, McFeral called ACORN a 'danger to our democracy' - yet he was the keynote speaker at ACORN's 2006 rally.

Which is it, John? ???



You ever think that opinions might change over a couple of years? There have been a lot of football coaches that were hired in 2006 that have since been fired because they didn't turn out to be what they thought they were.

After seeing ACORN ramp up their cheating to unprecedented levels this year he now has a completely different opinion..as he should.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You ever think that opinions might change over a couple of years? There have been a lot of football coaches that were hired in 2006 that have since been fired because they didn't turn out to be what they thought they were.

After seeing ACORN ramp up their cheating to unprecedented levels this year he now has a completely different opinion..as he should.

:bs:

The republi-cons have been making the same bullsh*t claims about ACORN and "voter fraud" since WAY before 2006.

[Rohirrim]

"There's no evidence that any of these invalid registrations lead to any invalid votes," said David Becker, project director of the "Make Voting Work" initiative for the Pew Charitable Trusts.

This is the key the Righties are deliberately ignoring.

[Drek]

To be filibuster proof you just need 60 dems,you need 2/3rds to amend the constitution.

You can stop a filibuster without a constitutional amendment.

Also, they probably don't need a full super majority to be able to do so. A few moderate republicans won't be butt hurt by the idea of actually pursuing a criminal investigation of this current administration and would help stop retaliatory filibustering.

[NaptownChief]

"There's no evidence that any of these invalid registrations lead to any invalid votes," said David Becker, project director of the "Make Voting Work" initiative for the Pew Charitable Trusts.

This is the key the Righties are deliberately ignoring.


Not true. Read a story this week that Ohio caught somebody casting a ballot on one of the fraudulent ACORN registrations.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Not true. Read a story this week that Ohio caught somebody casting a ballot on one of the fraudulent ACORN registrations.

Link?

That would be rather difficult considering that the names used on the bogus registrations in question are either fictitious or randomly selected from a phone book.

[NaptownChief]

Link?

That would be rather difficult considering that the names used on the bogus registrations in question are either fictitious or randomly selected from a phone book.




http://www.nypost.com/seven/10142008/news/politics/bogus_voter_booted_amid_probe_of_acorn_133540.htm



Investigators probing ACORN have learned that an Ohio man registered to vote several times and cast a bogus ballot with a fake address, officials said yesterday, as they revealed that nearly 4,000 registration applications supplied by the left-leaning activist group were suspect.



The vote of Darnell Nash, one of four people subpoenaed in a Cuyahoga County probe of ACORN's voter-registration activities, was canceled and his case was turned over to local prosecutors and law enforcement, Board of Elections officials said yesterday.

Nash had registered to vote repeatedly from an address that belonged to a legitimately registered voter, officials said during a hearing at which the subpoenaed voters were to testify.

Board officials had contacted Nash this summer, questioned his address and told him to stop repeat registering.

But still, he breezed into Ohio election offices - the state allows early voting for president - reregistered with a fake address and cast a paper ballot, officials said.

"He came in on 9/30 and Mr. Nash again registered to vote at [someone else's] address, and he cast a ballot," said board official Jane Platten.

Nash did not turn up for the hearing.

The Post reported last week on the Cleveland-area probe and the subpoenas, which were sent out to four people - including two voters who said they were hounded by ACORN workers to register over and over, even when they warned they'd already done so.

It's the latest issue in the probe of ACORN's registering voters in Ohio, one of at least nine states where officials are investigating similar reports of phony sign-ups by the group.

At the same time, officials said, some 5 percent, or 3,650, of the 73,000 total registration cards turned in by ACORN in the Cleveland area from its Project Vote initiative to sign up low-income voters were "questionable," Platten said.

There were "egregious acts of registering multiple times," said Platten. "The extent of it is beyond the resources of this board."

Nash's case and three others were turned over to authorities yesterday, said Ryan Miday, a spokesman for prosecutor Bill Masson.

"We will consider presenting it to a grand jury," Miday said.

A member of the board said if necessary, the FBI or federal prosecutors could be brought in for assistance.

Still, members of the bipartisan board downplayed any voter fraud.

And Platten insisted officials with ACORN have offered "any and all" help in probing the questionable activities. Katy Gall, the Ohio state director for ACORN, said her group is cooperating fully with the investigation.

She added that her group has fired anyone who was found soliciting duplicate registrations.

ACORN, whose political arm has endorsed Democratic nominee Barack Obama, has signed up more than 1.3 million voters for this cycle.

ACORN adviser Scott Levenson said, "If one of the 13,000 [people] we hired is potentially a bad apple in the bunch, we encourage the authorities to prosecute, as appropriate, anyone that did the wrong thing. We discipline [and] we fire workers who [abuse their position] . . . We encourage prosecutors to follow suit."

He also denied suggestions that the group pays canvassers by the number of names they sign up, and that they have quotas.

Also yesterday:

* Two of the four subpoenaed voters, Freddie Johnson and Christopher Barkley, met privately with sheriff's deputies and described what they'd told The Post about being hounded by ACORN workers. Barkley testified at the hearing that some of the registration cards listing his name weren't filled out by him.

* In an e-mail to supporters, John McCain's running mate, Sarah Palin, slammed "the left-wing activist group ACORN" and suggested, "We can't allow leftist groups like ACORN to steal this election."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10142008/news/politics/bogus_voter_booted_amid_probe_of_acorn_133540.htm



From your own article:

And Platten insisted officials with ACORN have offered "any and all" help in probing the questionable activities. Katy Gall, the Ohio state director for ACORN, said her group is cooperating fully with the investigation.

She added that her group has fired anyone who was found soliciting duplicate registrations.

ACORN, whose political arm has endorsed Democratic nominee Barack Obama, has signed up more than 1.3 million voters for this cycle.

ACORN adviser Scott Levenson said, "If one of the 13,000 [people] we hired is potentially a bad apple in the bunch, we encourage the authorities to prosecute, as appropriate, anyone that did the wrong thing. We discipline [and] we fire workers who [abuse their position] . . . We encourage prosecutors to follow suit."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Election Experts: McCain's Charges of Voter Fraud "Out of Proportion to Reality" <hr style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> http://a.abcnews.com/images/site/printlogo.jpg

McCain Acorn Fears Overblown
Charges of Voter Fraud Are Out of Proportion to Reality, They Say

By JUSTIN ROOD

Oct. 16, 2008—

Charges of potential vote fraud volleyed by Republicans, including Sen. John McCain himself, are out of proportion to reality, according to election experts.

The concerns raised by the Republican National Committee in daily conference calls with reporters, as well as by McCain himself in Wednesday's debate focus on the nonprofit group Acorn, whose nationwide voter registration efforts have garnered apparently fraudulent registration cards, some for fictional characters like "Mickey Mouse."

Acorn, whose registration efforts generally target poor neighborhoods, "is now on the verge of maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy," McCain claimed last night, citing Sen. Barack Obama's ties to the group.

Obama reportedly worked with Acorn when he ran a Chicago-area voter registration drive shortly after graduating from law school, and conducted leadership training with the group. During the primaries, Obama's campaign paid an Acorn-affiliated group $800,000 for get-out-the-vote efforts, which reportedly did not include voter registration. The group's political arm has endorsed Obama's candidacy.

But McCain's voter fraud worries about Acorn or anyone else are unsupported by the facts, said experts on election fraud, who recall similar concerns being raised in several previous elections, despite a near-total absence of cases.

"There's no evidence that any of these invalid registrations lead to any invalid votes," said David Becker, project director of the "Make Voting Work" initiative for the Pew Charitable Trusts.

Becker should know: he was a lawyer for the Bush administration until 2005, in the Justice Department's voting rights section, which was part of the administration's aggressive anti-vote-fraud effort.

"The Justice Department really made prosecution of voter fraud of this sort a big priority in the first half of this decade, and they really didn't come up with anything," he said.

"We're chasing these ghosts of voter fraud, like chickens without a head," said Lorraine Minnite, a political science professor at Barnard College in New York who has researched voter fraud and fraud claims for most of the past decade. "I think it's completely overblown, I think it's meant to be a distraction."

"This stuff does not threaten the outcome of the election," said Minnite. "How many illegal ballots have been cast by people who are fraudulently registered to vote? By my count, it's zero. I just don't know of any, I've been looking for years for this stuff."

Vote Tampering and Fraud Sees Seven or Eight Convictions a Year, Says Expert

For all types of vote tampering and fraud, including vote buying, Minnite says the Justice Department has averaged seven or eight convictions a year.

Despite the experts' opinions, a McCain-Palin campaign spokesman reiterated that their concern was real. In cases like absentee voting, "there's no way of knowing whether [voters] are who they say they are," said the spokesman, who declined to be identified.

So far, one case of alleged vote fraud has been reported in this election: On Sept. 30, an Ohio man reportedly attempted to vote using the state's early-voting process, who registered under a fake address, according to the New York Post. However, the state's bipartisan election board was downplaying concerns over such fraud, according to the paper.

Acorn has defended its efforts by pointing out that it has reported "almost all" of the bogus cards itself, and noting that McCain had supported the group's efforts in other areas in the past. "Repeating a lie doesn't make it true," read a statement the group released last night in response to McCain's attack, "and the McCain campaign has resorted to the worst type of deceptions in regards to Acorn."

And while the RNC has labeled Acorn a "quasi-criminal group," not all Republicans share their party's concern. Florida Gov. Charlie Crist, whom McCain once reportedly considered as a running mate, told a reporter recently that he wasn't worried by Acorn's registration efforts in his state.

Even the non-partisan truth-in-politics Web site FactCheck.org called foul on McCain's alleged possible conspiracy, noting that a Republican prosecutor handling a key Acorn registration fraud case has said there's no evidence indicating the group was involved in vote fraud.

"This scheme was not intended to permit illegal voting," said King County, Wash. Prosecutor Dan Satterberg in a 2007 statement, after a federal-state investigation found seven Acorn workers had submitted over 1,700 bogus voter registration forms.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/print?id=6049529

Copyright © 2008 ABC News Internet Ventures

[Rohirrim]

Not true. Read a story this week that Ohio caught somebody casting a ballot on one of the fraudulent ACORN registrations.

Link?

Anyway, I'm sure that in every election across this country people are caught voting fraudulently, probably the majority of those doing so unwittingly. But are their numbers enough to, in the words of McCain, "tear apart the fabric of our democracy?" It's a ludicrous claim.

I think the Republican governor of Florida has already shot down this Right Wing talking point.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Link?

Anyway, I'm sure that in every election across this country people are caught voting fraudulently, probably the majority of those doing so unwittingly. But are their numbers enough to, in the words of McCain, "tear apart the fabric of our democracy?" It's a ludicrous claim.

I think the Republican governor of Florida has already shot down this Right Wing talking point.

The bullsh*t story Naptown and the right-wing noise machine are trying to sell is that there is some sort of large-scale, organized voter fraud effort being conducted by ACORN itself (as opposed to a few unscrupulous employees turning in registration forms with fake names so they can get paid.)

[NaptownChief]

Link?

Anyway, I'm sure that in every election across this country people are caught voting fraudulently,



Democrats getting an extra carton of cigs to do so. Democrats have been stuffing and cheating the ballot boxes for so long that they now believe it is perfectly acceptable and part of the process. They are to the point now that they are shocked that anyone would dare call them to the carpet on the matter. Voting early and often for decades.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Democrats have been stuffing and cheating the ballot boxes for so long that they now believe it is perfectly acceptable and part of the process. They are to the point now that they are shocked that anyone would dare call them to the carpet on the matter. Voting early and often for decades.

Republi-cons (like Rehab Rush) have been repeating this canard for decades - with no evidence to back it up.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Gotta chuckle at the fact that the election is 18 days away and the righties are already making excuses for a projected loss.

I guess that means it's not too early for me to respond with "get over it!"

Ha!

[NaptownChief]

Republi-cons (like Rehab Rush) have been repeating this canard for decades - with no evidence to back it up.



Just like the pitiful, pathetic Demorat whine of pulling the race card and "voter suppression" garbage every time we mob the floor with you clowns.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Just like the pitiful, pathetic Demorat whine of pulling the race card and "voter suppression" garbage every time we mob the floor with you clowns.

No - it's not "just like" that.

The republican crooks you support have been prosecuted and found guilty in many of the instances of voter fraud we have observed.

In the NAACP vs. Harris/ChoicePoint suit, the defendants were found guilty and admitted their guilt.

This one instance of GOP voter fraud cost Al Gore >50,000 votes in FL in 2000.

[NaptownChief]

admitted their guilt.





Probably the single biggest difference between Republicans and Demorats, the ability to admit wrong doing.

Demorats lie and refuse responsibility to their very last dying breath.

[Miss I.]

Probably the single biggest difference between Republicans and Demorats, the ability to admit wrong doing.

Demorats lie and refuse responsibility to their very last dying breath.

Seriously? Okay I will bite, when exactly has any party, Republican or Democrat been forthcoming about wrong doing? I don't exactly recall Watergate being a sterling moment for the Republicans. And Iran Contra for the love of all that is good, the Republicans were lying all over the place. I am not saying Democrats don't lie either. No one is denying that the whole "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" was a lie and Clinton was an idiot for not just owning and moving on, but don't get all high and mighty. The Republicans lie and refuse to take responsibility a lot too. Weapons of Mass destruction anyone? The current state of the economy (is anyone actually owning responsibility for that).

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Probably the single biggest difference between Republicans and Demorats, the ability to admit wrong doing.


Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

Thigh-slapper of the decade!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Probably the single biggest difference between Republicans and Demorats, the ability to admit wrong doing.

Demorats lie and refuse responsibility to their very last dying breath.

The defendants in NAACP vs Harris/Choice point only admitted guilt when they were backed into a corner and had no other recourse.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Seriously? Okay I will bite, when exactly has any party, Republican or Democrat been forthcoming about wrong doing? I don't exactly recall Watergate being a sterling moment for the Republicans. And Iran Contra for the love of all that is good, the Republicans were lying all over the place. I am not saying Democrats don't lie either. No one is denying that the whole "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" was a lie and Clinton was an idiot for not just owning and moving on, but don't get all high and mighty. The Republicans lie and refuse to take responsibility a lot too. Weapons of Mass destruction anyone? The current state of the economy (is anyone actually owning responsibility for that).

Naptown's hero Dubya built his reputation on his unwillingness to admit mistakes or wrongdoing, for God's sake!

[Rohirrim]

Democrats getting an extra carton of cigs to do so. Democrats have been stuffing and cheating the ballot boxes for so long that they now believe it is perfectly acceptable and part of the process. They are to the point now that they are shocked that anyone would dare call them to the carpet on the matter. Voting early and often for decades.

They're obviously not very good at it, judging by the last two presidential elections.

[NaptownChief]

Seriously? Okay I will bite, when exactly has any party, Republican or Democrat been forthcoming about wrong doing? I don't exactly recall Watergate being a sterling moment for the Republicans. And Iran Contra for the love of all that is good, the Republicans were lying all over the place. I am not saying Democrats don't lie either. No one is denying that the whole "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" was a lie and Clinton was an idiot for not just owning and moving on, but don't get all high and mighty. The Republicans lie and refuse to take responsibility a lot too. Weapons of Mass destruction anyone? The current state of the economy (is anyone actually owning responsibility for that).



When Nixon got caught, he resigned. When Clinton got caught he refused to do what was best and stayed to the end despite being impeached.

Through out the years you look at Republican politicians when they get caught red handed, most step down. Democrats are generally like Charlie Rangle and refuse to step down regardless of the fact it would be for the greater good.

[Rohirrim]

Probably the single biggest difference between Republicans and Demorats, the ability to admit wrong doing.

Demorats lie and refuse responsibility to their very last dying breath.

Yeah, like Larry Craig. Oh, and then there's Dick Cheney, who committed treason.

[NaptownChief]

Yeah, like Larry Craig. Oh, and then there's Dick Cheney, who committed treason.




Did Condit step down? Or just get voted out?

[Old Dude]

This article says it all:

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/rockytalklive/archives/2008/10/polling_the_polls_whats_the_sp.html

The bottom line ... will the newly registered voters (mostly Dems) show up on election day or not? And will Dems and Independents show up in greater percentages than they have historically?

If they do, it's over, and over in a probable landslide.

But if they lose interest or fall into historical patterns, then McCain could pull it out.

[Tom H.]

Caption this:

http://www.pensitoreview.com/images/photo-deprbate3-mcprcain-tongue.jpg


We're gonna explode? I don't wanna explode!

Jayne Cobb, Serenity (2005)

[Miss I.]

When Nixon got caught, he resigned. When Clinton got caught he refused to do what was best and stayed to the end despite being impeached.

Through out the years you look at Republican politicians when they get caught red handed, most step down. Democrats are generally like Charlie Rangle and refuse to step down regardless of the fact it would be for the greater good.

Nixon resigned because he had no choice. They had all the stuff he did on tape, his tapes because the man was so paranoid. He resigned after being impeached, but I don't know that he admitted he was wrong. And he was involved in something that had to do with tampering with the election. Clinton didn't need to resign, he just should have said, yes I did it and moved on earlier rather then drag the country through the embarassment.

But having said all that, they were all still wrong, Democrat, Republican, stick to whatever labels make you comfortable. I don't care, a lot of bad men on both sides. Just because the bad guys step down does not make them good people or that party any better. More then likely they were just not good at covering their tracks and had to admit it since they were caught. And Reagan never admitted to a damn thing with Iran Contra and you cannot tell me he didn't know what was going on. He let his underlings take the fall.

[NaptownChief]

Nixon resigned because he had no choice.



He had a choice, he could have dug his heels in and forced the country to go through an impeachment vote and process ala Slick Willie. He knew that wasn't in the best interest of the country and he packed his bags.

[Miss I.]

This article says it all:

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/rockytalklive/archives/2008/10/polling_the_polls_whats_the_sp.html

The bottom line ... will the newly registered voters (mostly Dems) show up on election day or not? And will Dems and Independents show up in greater percentages than they have historically?

If they do, it's over, and over in a probable landslide.

But if they lose interest or fall into historical patterns, then McCain could pull it out.

I agree, there is a good chance for McCain based just on what you said. And I do see a lot of people losing interest in voting all together.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

When Nixon got caught, he resigned. When Clinton got caught he refused to do what was best and stayed to the end despite being impeached.

Invalid comparison.

Nixon was forced to resign or face impeachment for what were genuine high crimes and misdemeanors he had committed.

Clinton's lies about a personal matter didn't meet the standards for high crimes and misdemeanors.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

He had a choice, he could have dug his heels in and forced the country to go through an impeachment vote and process ala Slick Willie. He knew that wasn't in the best interest of the country and he packed his bags.

That's BS - he knew they had the goods on him.

He did what he had to do to save his own ass.

[Rohirrim]

He had a choice, he could have dug his heels in and forced the country to go through an impeachment vote and process ala Slick Willie. He knew that wasn't in the best interest of the country and he packed his bags.

No. He knew he was going to be found guilty. A coalition of GOP bigwigs came into his office and gave him the vote numbers. He knew his goose was cooked. Trying to paint that with some kind of nobility at this late date is simply revisionism of the kind China is famous for.

Nixon actually committed the crimes he was indicted on. The Clinton impeachment was a political hatchet job, not much different from the Johnson impeachment.

[Old Dude]

I agree, there is a good chance for McCain based just on what you said. And I do see a lot of people losing interest in voting all together.

Good news for Obama ...

1. Even Gallup shows that he's up by 10 over McCain among Independents, who are a larger group than either party.

2. The "2-point" Gallup figure is based on their "traditional" method of determining likely voters. In their more "modern" model, Obama is up by 6.

3. Both candidates (understandably) are devoting a huge amount of their resources to "Battleground" States. Obama actually has a somewhat bigger edge in the electoral contest than in the popular contest.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Poll: Voters souring on McCain, Obama stays steady (AP) (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rss/topstories/*http://news.yahoo.com/page/election-2008-political-pulse-souring-on-mccain)

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081017/capt.26acdbabeecc4bc5b548af6fa4f8dbc9.mccain_2008_ nyck147.jpg?x=130&y=72&q=85&sig=taSeFwiEJMIz_BLsMKC_eQ-- (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rss/topstories/*http://news.yahoo.com/page/election-2008-political-pulse-souring-on-mccain)AP - When it comes to the public's image of John McCain, it's as if somebody dialed the electricity down in the past month. For Barack Obama, the juice is still flowing.

[NaptownChief]

The Clinton impeachment was a political hatchet job, .


Ask Marion Jones if perjury is just a political hatchet job.

[Rohirrim]

Ask Marion Jones if perjury is just a political hatchet job.

Since sex with a consenting adult is not a crime, what reason would a prosecutor have for asking about it?

[Miss I.]

Since sex with a consenting adult is not a crime, what reason would a prosecutor have for asking about it?

I know you will all correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the reason he was asked was in relation to a sexual harrassment suit he was involved in or something. Wrongly or rightly asked, he did still lie under oath. Is it comprable to Nixon, not remotely, but he did lie. He would have been better off just admitting it instead of letting it get dragged out of him. Again, not saying it is comparable to Nixon. They were impeached for two completely different breaches of trust and Nixon's was by far the one most likely to end in a conviction. He resigned to avoid that. Maybe someone can correct me on this but isn't impeachment essentially just an indictment before going to an actual trial where you may or may not be convicted?

[Miss I.]

Good news for Obama ...

1. Even Gallup shows that he's up by 10 over McCain among Independents, who are a larger group than either party.

2. The "2-point" Gallup figure is based on their "traditional" method of determining likely voters. In their more "modern" model, Obama is up by 6.

3. Both candidates (understandably) are devoting a huge amount of their resources to "Battleground" States. Obama actually has a somewhat bigger edge in the electoral contest than in the popular contest.

It's odd how this election went, once upon a time I really thought McCain would win by a landslide. Of course once upon a time I really believed in him, when I was still in AZ and still bought into who the popular press about him at the time. I still believe he is a good man who has most of the time tried to serve his country and constituents to the best of his ability, but I also see that in the last 8 years he has really backslid on a lot of the things he used to stand up for. I think now he is more likely to continue the Bush regime's policies which makes me very disappointed.

[Old Dude]

New state polls yesterday and today:

Florida getting much tighter - one poll shows Obama up by 4, the other shows McCain up by 2.

Ohio: dead even.

Missouri: Obama seems to be gaining ground. It was a 2 point McCain lead earlier in the week, now up to a 6-point lead for Obama.

North Dakota - - another poll repeats results from earlier in the week, surprisingly showing Obama up by 3. But ... 15% are "undecided" in that poll.

[TailgateNut]

Not true. Read a story this week that Ohio caught somebody casting a ballot on one of the fraudulent ACORN registrations.


Didn't know you could cast a ballot on a registration form.

[Old Dude]

Didn't know you could cast a ballot on a registration form.


That's why the whole thing is a tempest in a teapot. Fictitious registrations mean nothing. And, normally, no one is highly motivated to seek them out. They don't count for anything.

Now if people start showing up with forged documents attempting to vote under those fictitious names, that's a different story. But it's more closely watchdogged and harder to pull off.

[Traveler]

OT: How many here believe when you vote for President, your individual vote actually is being counted to select the person run the country?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

YES! Repubs LOSE Ohio Challenge!

The Repubs are crying in their soup. Too bad.

The judge gave sound reasoning. Mismatch lists are not utilized to determine voter eligibility but rather to update databases...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081017/ap_on_el_pr/scotus_voter_registration#full

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I know you will all correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the reason he was asked was in relation to a sexual harrassment(sic) suit he was involved in or something. Wrongly or rightly asked, he did still lie under oath. Is it comprable(sic) to Nixon, not remotely, but he did lie.

Wrong.

Clinton didn't lie under oath (i.e., commit perjury.)

In the deposition, the prosecutor was required by law to provide a definition of "sex" before Clinton was questioned.

Clinton answered all of the questions put to him truthfully within the parameters of the definition provided to him (the only definition that counted legally.)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Another good sign: NRSC Pulling Out Of Colorado 10/18 (http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/10/nrsc_pulling_out_of_co.php)

[Miss I.]

Wrong.

Clinton didn't lie under oath (i.e., commit perjury.)

In the deposition, the prosecutor was required by law to provide a definition of "sex" before Clinton was questioned.

Clinton answered all of the questions put to him truthfully within the parameters of the definition provided to him (the only definition that counted legally.)

Okay. That I didn't know. Seriously, thank you for the correction.

[peacepipe]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/18/scenes-from-the-trail-100000-in-st-louis-for-obama/

[peacepipe]

Not too shabby to go into a previously red state & draw almost 20,000 more than you did at the DNC convention.

[Needa Pass Rush]

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[peacepipe]

You're going to have to do better than that. That's old news.

[Needa Pass Rush]

You're going to have to do better than that. That's old news.


Thanks for the heads up. I'll try harder. Here is one hot off the press for you.

How Obama Would Stifle Drug Innovation
If you want cutting-edge health care, don't make it a cost-controlled commodity.

By SCOTT GOTTLIEBArticle

Pfizer recently said it's exiting the development of drugs for common conditions like heart disease. This is part of a shift underway in the pharmaceutical industry to give up on routine medical problems in favor of discovering "specialty" drugs for rare diseases and unmet medical needs like cancer.

APThe shift is driven in part by the industry's critics in Washington, who have long maligned drug companies for targeting too many routine medical problems with drugs that were "merely" tweaks on existing medicines. Now these same detractors, led by House Democrats, are proposing controls on access to and eventually pricing of the specialty drugs as well. Under a Barack Obama presidency, this is one way they'll pay for the candidate's plan to create a Medicare-like program for the under-65 crowd. These new controls -- based on a view of medical care as a commodity to be purchased at the lowest price, with little allowance for innovation -- could push drug development over a tipping point.
Specialty drugs offer significant health benefits but for a high price, reflecting the difficulty of developing them. The regulatory process for getting them approved is more uncertain, since the diseases are poorly understood or haven't been tackled before in clinical trials. Enrolling patients with rare conditions is also expensive; they are harder to recruit and often need to undergo more extensive testing to monitor the progress in trials. It can cost less than $5,000 to enroll a single patient in a trial for a primary care drug such as a blood pressure pill, but up to $70,000 for a big cancer study and more than $100,000 for some very rare diseases. Specialty drugs that were once tested on hundreds of patients are now often required by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to be tested on thousands.
Success rates are low. On average, a drug stands an 11% chance of making it through clinical trials and reaching patients. Cancer drugs only have a 5% chance of clearing these hurdles. Specialty drugs are also harder to distribute and by definition have a much smaller market for sales.
The big drug makers' shift into these markets isn't a measure of their strength, but a symptom of their decline, as they grope for a profitable niche amid increasing regulation. Mobilizing capital to take on these medical problems requires the promise of big returns for the few drugs that succeed. When a new drug mitigates -- and sometimes cures -- a previously untreatable problem, innovators can often "re-price" the initial treatment of a disease, charging very high prices for the administration of a drug. The initial intervention becomes more costly -- but the new benefits should reduce long-term costs, extend life, or ease suffering.
This ability to re-price provides the economic incentives to pursue a lot of practical innovations. Take cancer, which now accounts for a third of all drugs in development. Cancers that once cost thousands of dollars to treat when there weren't effective options now cost tens of thousands with drugs that are dramatically better. One study estimated that the lifetime costs of treating breast cancer in 1984 were about $37,000 on average. A more recent study of older cancer patients found that just the first 12 months of therapy for earlier-stage breast cancer can top $18,000. But the bigger difference is that today -- thanks to more effective medicines such as Taxol and Herceptin, coupled with better clinical research -- most women live longer and many with early cancer can expect a cure.
Similarly, a little more than a decade ago the initial treatment for advanced colon cancer involved a drug regimen that cost hundreds of dollars. Now initial care -- which incorporates three new drugs and two biologic drugs (those grown in living cells) -- costs more than $20,000. But over that time period median survival has doubled; and more people with earlier stage tumors can use some of the same drugs to be cured.
Of course, high drug costs and re-pricing are deeply unfashionable in Washington, where the political focus is on cutting the cost of delivering care in order to extend government-financed coverage to more people. To pay for a Medicare-like program for younger Americans, Sen. Obama promises to cut up to $290 billion from the cost of health insurance, according to an analysis by my colleague Joe Antos. While some of this is supposed to come from "efficiency" and deploying information technology, the only proposals with budget teeth are Mr. Obama's "pay or play" tax on employers, controls on access to new drugs and medical devices, and his party's proposals to control drug pricing.
Congressional Democrats want to give Medicare the ability to "negotiate" specialty drug prices (they are referred to as "single source" drugs in some bills) or simply fix their price by forcing companies to give Medicare drug plans the same deep rebates that are mandated under Medicaid. Mr. Obama has also championed a "comparative effectiveness" agency -- styled after England's National Institute for Clinical Evidence (NICE) -- that conducts reviews and studies on the clinical and cost effectiveness of drugs to inform central rulings on which patients should be eligible for a new treatment.
NICE's real mission is to protect the British health-care budget. Since 2000 it has denied patients the ability to use the newest cancer drugs -- by my count, in 226 different indications where American insurers, and Medicare, currently pay, and where the National Comprehensive Cancer Network says there is "high-level evidence" or "uniform consensus" of clinical benefit. Cancer survival rates in the U.K. are substantially lower than in the U.S. and the gap continues to widen.
The most economically pernicious effect of price and access controls isn't the impact on revenue from existing drugs -- but how they distort future investment decisions. They will lower expectations that untreated diseases can continue to be re-priced, even with very effective new drugs. I work with health-care investors and companies first hand. They can reallocate capital in the face of protracted political uncertainty. They can also forego traditional discovery altogether, in favor of less socially useful but lucrative areas like lifestyle meds or prescription cosmetics. The last time policy makers waged a concerted effort to control the price of and the access to the most innovative, but expensive new drugs as part of broader health-care reform in the mid 1990s, the percent of venture capital going into biotech fell by almost half in a single year. A lot of that money shifted into Internet companies.
Of course, re-pricing diseases doesn't help people struggling to get basic health care, or those burdened by high co-pays. But there are policy options to address these troubling issues without preying on medical innovation and its health contributions.
Specialty drugs typically appear on the "fourth tier" of health plans, and have expensive co-pays. Drug companies need to explore alternative pricing mechanisms, including approaches that tie their reimbursement to evidence that an individual patient is benefiting. Health insurers need to provide new policy holders with clear, up-front disclosures on co-pays and not stick patients with unbearable bills only after sickness strikes. The FDA can also help lower overall drug spending by adopting reasonable regulatory pathways for diagnostic tests that would enable doctors to target drugs more efficiently to patients most likely to benefit.
Mr. Obama's policies on drug access and his party's plans to control pricing will distort the financial incentives that inspire innovations. This will shortchange the contributions innovations provide.
Dr. Gottlieb is a practicing physician and a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

[frerottenextelway]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/muzikal203/Obama/St%20Louis/671be587.jpg

[Paladin]

Udall in Colorado and Udall in Ariz. Cousins in the Senate? So I have that right?

Palin is coming to NorCo to the Events Center. Capacity is about 18,000, maybe more depending on how it's configured and how much the fire Marshall can tolerate. I am sure this will energize the repugnicans around here, but I still expect the area to go Obama. The Students are really motivated along with many of the faculty......

100,000 is "My God!!!" territory.....

[kappys]

Wrong.

Clinton didn't lie under oath (i.e., commit perjury.)

In the deposition, the prosecutor was required by law to provide a definition of "sex" before Clinton was questioned.

Clinton answered all of the questions put to him truthfully within the parameters of the definition provided to him (the only definition that counted legally.)


He was also required to provide the definition of "is" - and I'm not sure it was made clear :flush:

[Mr.Meanie]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/muzikal203/Obama/St%20Louis/671be587.jpg

wow! how many people is that? that's crazy

[kappys]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll try harder. Here is one hot off the press for you.

How Obama Would Stifle Drug Innovation
If you want cutting-edge health care, don't make it a cost-controlled commodity.



MOstly nonsense IMO. Drug development and research almost invariably follows government funded development and research - just as the modern technologies we enjoy(the internet, LCD, etc, etc.) have pretty much followed government(pentagon) directed R and D. Research priorities are shifting to energy production and other targets. Biotech is still a big priority - but the major advances are likely to be genetics based with highly specialized therapies(i.e. stem cells, etc.) It will be another generation at least before we see the fruits of these efforts.

[Bronco Bob]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll try harder. Here is one hot off the press for you.

How Obama Would Stifle Drug Innovation
If you want cutting-edge health care, don't make it a cost-controlled commodity.



Were you aware that drug companies spend more on advertising than
they do on research. Maybe they should cut back on their ads for
drugs people don't really need and then they'd have money to do
the research on drugs that would actually help people. No boo-hoos
from me for the drug companies. Just another reason to vote
for Obama and help reign in the excesses of the past 8 years.

[ZONA]

wow! how many people is that? that's crazy

I may be wrong but I think that was in Europe and I think they said there was over 200K at that event. I'm not certain because it was so long ago but I believe I'm close.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

He was also required to provide the definition of "is" - and I'm not sure it was made clear :flush:

Righties always like to harp on that one, don't they?

Bottom line: Clinton had no obligation to help the prosecution make its case against him - in fact, his job was to do just the opposite.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

MOstly nonsense IMO.

You can file most of NPR's input on this forum under that same general heading.

[ZONA]

I was wrong, that was in the US

Barack Obama drew a crowd of 100,000 at a rally near the Gateway Arch in St. Louis

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

AP: "The misadventures of Joe the Plumber were just the latest stumble for Republican John McCain as he veers from one idea to another in a thus-far elusive quest to slow Barack Obama's momentum." (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hevgMEB4X2XNT3umP8t2lFh36NlQD93SP9B80)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

GOP turnout lagging in heavy N. Carolina early voting. Across the state, Democrats showed the most first-day enthusiasm. Of the nearly 114,000 first-day voters, 64 percent were Democrats, 21 percent Republicans and 15 percent unaffiliateds. 10/19 (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/54396.html)