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broncos-rock
10-15-2008, 08:59 PM
Oct. 15 - 8:55 pm et


Calvin Lowry has replaced Marlon McCree as the Broncos' first-team free safety.

The Broncos' problems at safety have carried over from last season despite McCree and SS Marquand Manuel's additions. McCree had only 25 tackles in the first six weeks, and Denver's FS position isn't a hot spot for stats.
Source: Rocky Mountain News
Related: Marlon McCree



About time.............I'm tired of seeing McCree go for the big hit and then not wrap up!!

backup qb
10-15-2008, 09:01 PM
I'm up for anything at this point. Broncos Rock, can you play safety by any chance?

backup qb
10-15-2008, 09:02 PM
Or D-Line?

Goobzilla
10-15-2008, 09:04 PM
This move is exciting and terrifying at the same time.

~Crash~
10-15-2008, 09:08 PM
This move is exciting and terrifying at the same time.



Terrifying how ?

Florida_Bronco
10-15-2008, 09:09 PM
Good. Lowry is a young guy who is still improving.

SportinOne
10-15-2008, 09:09 PM
Finally! You know, McCree might not deserve to be replaced as much as Manuel did, or even some others.. but he's a veteran and knocking him down a notch and replacing him might send a message to the rest of the slackers.

azbroncfan
10-15-2008, 09:09 PM
This move is exciting and terrifying at the same time.

Why is that? The defense couldn't play anyworse.

Goobzilla
10-15-2008, 09:09 PM
Terrifying how ?

Glad to see McCree out, but Lowry has been no great shakes in his time on the field.

broncosteven
10-15-2008, 09:12 PM
This move is exciting and terrifying at the same time.

I am with you. I will be rooting for Lowery to suceed and will curse him if he fails.

2KBack
10-15-2008, 09:13 PM
Well...at least they recognize that they have a problem, and that's the first step

s0phr0syne
10-15-2008, 09:24 PM
no more drunk stumbling behind opposing running backs as they break away???? well, there goes (a portion of) the comedy I witness every sunday...

Ratboy
10-15-2008, 09:25 PM
Thank you, Mike Shanahan.

Ratboy
10-15-2008, 09:29 PM
Look at it this way, I rather have a pair of young safeties that make mistakes than a couple of vets that make mistakes.

I wish we would bring up Barrett and let him start.

SoDak Bronco
10-15-2008, 09:29 PM
I don't mind McCree, I thought he played better than Manuel..

BroncoBuff
10-15-2008, 09:37 PM
Good. Lowry is a young guy who is still improving.
Lowry is a young guy who was waived outta the league five weeks ago.

I was outta the loop there for awhile ... can anybody give me the inside on wtf happened with Hamza Abdullah? he was supposed to be a solid starter for awhile, then he's deactivated, then he's waived ???

BroncoMan4ever
10-15-2008, 09:39 PM
Bring in Barrett for Manual and I will be happy.

Hamrob
10-15-2008, 09:45 PM
Look at it this way, I rather have a pair of young safeties that make mistakes than a couple of vets that make mistakes.

I wish we would bring up Barrett and let him start.I agree 100%. Interesting to me is that McCree got the demotion before Manual. Yeah, McCree has stunk it up...but he hasn't been as bad as Manual in my book! That guy is pop warner league!

Br0nc0Buster
10-15-2008, 09:46 PM
Our safeties this year are like our dline last year.

We signed guys who no one else wanted; Sam Adams and "Hot 97", and as a result our line was complete trash.

Now we are just bringing in more retreads; McCree, Manuel, and Lowry

At least Lowry has age going for him

We did seem to somewhat fix our DT spot though, now if only we could fix our DEs and Ss this offseason

Dukes
10-15-2008, 09:49 PM
Good thing we still have Abdullah..... wait nevermind.

cutthemdown
10-15-2008, 09:50 PM
I said when we signed these scrubs it was a joke and it has proven true. Neither Manual or or McCree are starting caliber safety's. For the last 3 yrs we have all been saying to draft some young safety's but I guess Shanny likes scrubs or old FA at that position.

I don't get it because Broncos history is to have great safety's.

Dennis Smith= 15th pick in the first round
Steve Atwater=20th pick in the first round
Mike Harden== 5th round pick
Billy Thompson=3rd round pick

We have a great history at safety because the team valued the position and drafted to make it good. You can't neglect picking safety's in the draft and expect to continue such a tradition.

Hamrob
10-15-2008, 09:51 PM
Lowry is a young guy who was waived outta the league five weeks ago.

I was outta the loop there for awhile ... can anybody give me the inside on wtf happened with Hamza Abdullah? he was supposed to be a solid starter for awhile, then he's deactivated, then he's waived ???To put it simply, it just evolved quickly into him not being needed.

- The broncos go out and sign to vets (McCree & Manual)...so that they have veteran depth.
- Then Abdullah gets hurt
- Then Lynch asks to be released
- Then McCree & Manual lock up the starting slots in camp and throughout the preseason.
- Then the Broncos sign both Barrett and Rogers to the practice squad and pick up Lowry off waivers.
- Evidently, they didn't think they needed Abdullah...with the depth they had

Personally, I wish we would have went with Rogers and Barrett from the get go. Both are young atheletic kids who can make plays.

Florida_Bronco
10-15-2008, 09:59 PM
Lowry is a young guy who was waived outta the league five weeks ago.

By the Titans, who are pretty well set at safety and didn't need him.

McDman
10-15-2008, 10:00 PM
I predict in three weeks there will be a whole horde of Lowry haters.

socalorado
10-15-2008, 10:01 PM
To put it simply, it just evolved quickly into him not being needed.

- The broncos go out and sign to vets (McCree & Manual)...so that they have veteran depth.
- Then Abdullah gets hurt
- Then Lynch asks to be released
- Then McCree & Manual lock up the starting slots in camp and throughout the preseason.
- Then the Broncos sign both Barrett and Rogers to the practice squad and pick up Lowry off waivers.
- Evidently, they didn't think they needed Abdullah...with the depth they had

Personally, I wish we would have went with Rogers and Barrett from the get go. Both are young atheletic kids who can make plays.

DING DING! Winner!

Or even let Woodyard play SS for crying out loud!!!!!!
THE GUY IS A TACKLE MACHINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hamrob
10-15-2008, 10:12 PM
I said when we signed these scrubs it was a joke and it has proven true. Neither Manual or or McCree are starting caliber safety's. For the last 3 yrs we have all been saying to draft some young safety's but I guess Shanny likes scrubs or old FA at that position.

I don't get it because Broncos history is to have great safety's.

Dennis Smith= 15th pick in the first round
Steve Atwater=20th pick in the first round
Mike Harden== 5th round pick
Billy Thompson=3rd round pick

We have a great history at safety because the team valued the position and drafted to make it good. You can't neglect picking safety's in the draft and expect to continue such a tradition.We have drafted a few Safeties over the last 10 years.

Eric Brown = 2nd round pick in 1998
Kenoy Kennedy = 2nd round pick in 2000
Sam Brandon = 4th round pick in 2002
Chris Young = 7th round pick in 2007
Jeremy LeSueur = 3rd round pick in 2004
Josh Barrett = 7th round pick in 2008

It really comes down to whether we want to spend a #1 pick on a Safety or not. Is safety our #1 need at this point? Well, I don't know...here's how I see our needs going into the 2009 draft:

1. MLB
2. DT/DE
3. Safety
4. RB
5. CB

Just like every year, it will all depend on who falls to us in the draft and who we pick up in FA. We'll probably be drafting in the 20's this year...which I think is perfectly positioned for a Safety and/or a LB. Thoughts?

Florida_Bronco
10-15-2008, 10:14 PM
LeSueur was a CB.

orange crusher
10-15-2008, 10:14 PM
Well, he can't be much worse. Now, find someone to replace Manual. Oh, and while your at it Shanny, could you please find a DE that can get some pressure on the QB.

broncsyanks
10-15-2008, 10:16 PM
cant be any worse

Hamrob
10-15-2008, 10:17 PM
DING DING! Winner!

Or even let Woodyard play SS for crying out loud!!!!!!
THE GUY IS A TACKLE MACHINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Agreed. Can you imagine if they played the 3-4 and brought Woodyard in at SS. Try to run against that!!!

Hamrob
10-15-2008, 10:17 PM
LeSueur was a CB.True, but they drafted him to play Safety.

ANIMAL24
10-15-2008, 10:20 PM
hey at least there trying now.

lex
10-15-2008, 10:21 PM
We have drafted a few Safeties over the last 10 years.

Eric Brown = 2nd round pick in 1998
Kenoy Kennedy = 2nd round pick in 2000
Sam Brandon = 4th round pick in 2002
Chris Young = 7th round pick in 2007
Jeremy LeSueur = 3rd round pick in 2004
Josh Barrett = 7th round pick in 2008

It really comes down to whether we want to spend a #1 pick on a Safety or not. Is safety our #1 need at this point? Well, I don't know...here's how I see our needs going into the 2009 draft:

1. MLB
2. DT/DE
3. Safety
4. RB
5. CB

Just like every year, it will all depend on who falls to us in the draft and who we pick up in FA. We'll probably be drafting in the 20's this year...which I think is perfectly positioned for a Safety and/or a LB. Thoughts?

1. Player of greatest impact
2. S/RB/MLB
3. S/MLB/DT

kappys
10-15-2008, 10:23 PM
We have drafted a few Safeties over the last 10 years.

Eric Brown = 2nd round pick in 1998
Kenoy Kennedy = 2nd round pick in 2000
Sam Brandon = 4th round pick in 2002
Chris Young = 7th round pick in 2007
Jeremy LeSueur = 3rd round pick in 2004
Josh Barrett = 7th round pick in 2008

It really comes down to whether we want to spend a #1 pick on a Safety or not. Is safety our #1 need at this point? Well, I don't know...here's how I see our needs going into the 2009 draft:

1. MLB
2. DT/DE
3. Safety
4. RB
5. CB

Just like every year, it will all depend on who falls to us in the draft and who we pick up in FA. We'll probably be drafting in the 20's this year...which I think is perfectly positioned for a Safety and/or a LB. Thoughts?

I still have some hopes for JMFW and would scratch CB off the list - specifically for first day picks here. Round 3+ take the best available.

For out 1st 2 picks I think you go for the guy that falls to you. While I think safety is our weakest defensive position and therefore the one that promises to be among the easiest to improve - it may be possible to pull at least an average safety in FA or even to hope that Barrett and Lowry come through and are indeed average safeties.

cutthemdown
10-15-2008, 10:25 PM
True, but they drafted him to play Safety.

really because when he played he played at corner.

cutthemdown
10-15-2008, 10:29 PM
We have drafted a few Safeties over the last 10 years.

Eric Brown = 2nd round pick in 1998
Kenoy Kennedy = 2nd round pick in 2000
Sam Brandon = 4th round pick in 2002
Chris Young = 7th round pick in 2007
Jeremy LeSueur = 3rd round pick in 2004
Josh Barrett = 7th round pick in 2008

It really comes down to whether we want to spend a #1 pick on a Safety or not. Is safety our #1 need at this point? Well, I don't know...here's how I see our needs going into the 2009 draft:

1. MLB
2. DT/DE
3. Safety
4. RB
5. CB

Just like every year, it will all depend on who falls to us in the draft and who we pick up in FA. We'll probably be drafting in the 20's this year...which I think is perfectly positioned for a Safety and/or a LB. Thoughts?


When was the last time you saw a Bronco safety bail out a cornerback by making a big hit and jarring the ball loose? At least Webster makes some plays. The number one priority in the offseason has got to be getting 2 starting safety's. IMO it's the weakest spot on the whole team.

I actually think the DT are playing pretty well. The dends could use a big body to replace Engleberger.

One of your examples was a CB so 5 safety's in 10 yrs. 2 of those in the 7th round in which you don't often find starting players.

If Broncos want to be able to guard TE's they better get some better safety's.

Hamrob
10-15-2008, 10:42 PM
When was the last time you saw a Bronco safety bail out a cornerback by making a big hit and jarring the ball loose? At least Webster makes some plays. The number one priority in the offseason has got to be getting 2 starting safety's. IMO it's the weakest spot on the whole team.

I actually think the DT are playing pretty well. The dends could use a big body to replace Engleberger.

One of your examples was a CB so 5 safety's in 10 yrs. 2 of those in the 7th round in which you don't often find starting players.

If Broncos want to be able to guard TE's the better get some better safety's.

- Last season...and his name was John Lynch.
- LeSeur was drafted to play safety. He's a safety for the Browns today.
- We used 2 2nd round draft picks, a 3rd round pick and a 4th rounder
- I agree we need better safeties

Do we use our #1 or get one in Free Agency?

Hamrob
10-15-2008, 10:43 PM
really because when he played he played at corner.He actually played Safety for us. See the following link...scroll down and find the transactions listing LeSuer as a Bronco and as a Safety. He's still playing Safety...for the Browns.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/transactions?team=den&year=2005

summerdenver
10-15-2008, 10:45 PM
When was the last time you saw a Bronco safety bail out a cornerback by making a big hit and jarring the ball loose? At least Webster makes some plays.

The last such play i remember is Lynch against Housh in 2006 in the snow game. Lynch was not the same player after the stingers he had early in 2007. Point taken though we need some one on the defense who can intimidate opposition - like Al and Lynch.

Hamrob
10-15-2008, 10:45 PM
When was the last time you saw a Bronco safety bail out a cornerback by making a big hit and jarring the ball loose? At least Webster makes some plays. The number one priority in the offseason has got to be getting 2 starting safety's. IMO it's the weakest spot on the whole team.

I actually think the DT are playing pretty well. The dends could use a big body to replace Engleberger.

One of your examples was a CB so 5 safety's in 10 yrs. 2 of those in the 7th round in which you don't often find starting players.

If Broncos want to be able to guard TE's they better get some better safety's.Oh, and I disagree with you that Safety is our number one priority.

Obviously, our number one priority is our pass rush...just as it has been the past 2 yrs.

Ratboy
10-15-2008, 10:47 PM
Kenoy Kennedy was lightyears ahead of anything we have no. I cannot believe we let him go. Sam Brandon was another decent safety we got rid of. Brandon was very good at covering TE's.

I hope we go out and get ourselves a safety or 3. Taylor Mays or Myron Rolle would be huuuge.

Ratboy
10-15-2008, 10:48 PM
Before we get any further...

"BUT ED REEEEEEEEEEEEEED?"

Hamrob
10-15-2008, 10:48 PM
The last such play i remember is Lynch against Housh in 2006 in the snow game. Lynch was not the same player after the stingers he had early in 2007. Point taken though we need some one on the defense who can intimidate opposition - like Al and Lynch.Agreed. I thought Romo was invaluable for that fact in itself. Today, we have absolutely nobody to fill that void.

Hamrob
10-15-2008, 10:50 PM
Before we get any further...

"BUT ED REEEEEEEEEEEEEED?"In our dreams! Just another lost oppurtunity.

We need one of those and a Ray Lewis too!

cutthemdown
10-15-2008, 10:53 PM
Oh, and I disagree with you that Safety is our number one priority.

Obviously, our number one priority is our pass rush...just as it has been the past 2 yrs.

I agree we need better Dends but the safety's are horrid.

cutthemdown
10-15-2008, 10:56 PM
Regardless Hambone your list of what saftey's we have drafted over the last 10 yrs proves my point. Broncos have not invested in safety's through the draft enough over the last 10 yrs to expect to have good ones.

I happen to believe you can generate a pass rush with a scheme but only if you can free up the linebackers to help. Our safety's are so bad we can't really do that. The big plays we give up are the biggest reason we lose, safety's are there to prevent big plays. The ones we have simply can't prevent anything except Bronco victories.

Killericon
10-15-2008, 11:01 PM
It's about time!

montrose
10-15-2008, 11:32 PM
I'd rather have read Lowry takes over for Manual, but I'll take it.

ANIMAL24
10-15-2008, 11:35 PM
In our dreams! Just another lost oppurtunity.

We need one of those and a Ray Lewis too!

SINCE WERE ON THAT TOPIC WOULD ANY OF YOU HAVE DRAFTED R. LEWIS INSTEAD OF WILSON OR MOBLEY... SINCE WE HAD A CHANCE LEWIS BUT WE GOT MOBLEY A COUPLE PICKS BEFORE THE RAVENS GOT RAY.

montrose
10-15-2008, 11:39 PM
Oh, and I disagree with you that Safety is our number one priority.

Obviously, our number one priority is our pass rush...just as it has been the past 2 yrs.

What it is, IMO, is that pass rush should be the top priority as league-wide, DL play is more important than S play. That's why DL go higher in the draft and make a whole lot more money than Safeties. With that, I'd argue our DL has played better than our Safeties have this season. However, our offseason priorities should not be automatically the order of the worst units we have - but need to swayed a bit in order of league preference. With that, I'd say DL and possibly LB are higher priorities than S although I think the S unit is the weakest on the team right now.

kappys
10-15-2008, 11:44 PM
SINCE WERE ON THAT TOPIC WOULD ANY OF YOU HAVE DRAFTED R. LEWIS INSTEAD OF WILSON OR MOBLEY... SINCE WE HAD A CHANCE LEWIS BUT WE GOT MOBLEY A COUPLE PICKS BEFORE THE RAVENS GOT RAY.

Not a good comparison. Wilson was a better MLB than Ray Ray.

floats
10-15-2008, 11:44 PM
Kenoy Kennedy was lightyears ahead of anything we have no. I cannot believe we let him go. Sam Brandon was another decent safety we got rid of. Brandon was very good at covering TE's.

I hope we go out and get ourselves a safety or 3. Taylor Mays or Myron Rolle would be huuuge.

Sam Brandon was injured.

ZONA
10-15-2008, 11:46 PM
At this point I would rather just have 2 additional LB's out there and sit both safeties. The LB's won't do great in pass coverage but at least they won't get stiff armed and miss as many tackles. Our safeties sucks at both pass and run. At least putting 2 LB's back there, we will still suck in the pass but play the run much better.

Hogan11
10-15-2008, 11:46 PM
Might as well go with youth back there....when you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose.

ANIMAL24
10-15-2008, 11:51 PM
Not a good comparison. Wilson was a better MLB than Ray Ray.

So you would say wilson was better mlb than superbowl mvp ray lewis?

Drek
10-16-2008, 12:44 AM
So you would say wilson was better mlb than superbowl mvp ray lewis?

Ray Lewis is very overrated and looked better thanks to scheme.

Great player, but Al Wilson was at least as good in his prime. He just lacked the supporting cast, quality scheming, and the long term durability (which the previous two didn't help with at all).

Moving Lowry up is a move I think we all saw coming. Now if they'd just get Lynch out of retirement and bring Rogers up off the PS to rotate in for him on passing downs, then we'd be looking at a nice little set up at safety. Maybe get Barrett up in a few weeks when we finally cut bait on McCree and Manual completely too.

cutthemdown
10-16-2008, 12:54 AM
Ray Lewis is very overrated and looked better thanks to scheme.

Great player, but Al Wilson was at least as good in his prime. He just lacked the supporting cast, quality scheming, and the long term durability (which the previous two didn't help with at all).

Moving Lowry up is a move I think we all saw coming. Now if they'd just get Lynch out of retirement and bring Rogers up off the PS to rotate in for him on passing downs, then we'd be looking at a nice little set up at safety. Maybe get Barrett up in a few weeks when we finally cut bait on McCree and Manual completely too.

Lowry stinks.

Florida_Bronco
10-16-2008, 01:37 AM
Lowry stinks.

How the hell can you say that?

s0phr0syne
10-16-2008, 01:46 AM
Lowry stinks.



While you might end up being right, it's worth noting that the Lowry we'll see now has had the equivalent time of training camp to learn the scheme as compared to the floundering Lowry I last remember letting Chambers score in Week 2. I think it's worth being cautiously optimistic about!

broncocalijohn
10-16-2008, 02:34 AM
Well, he can't be much worse. Now, find someone to replace Manual. Oh, and while your at it Shanny, could you please find a DE that can get some pressure on the QB.

We got what we have. Change the scheme. I love the bum rush when Garrard fumbled. If we have such weak safeties, dont put the pressure on them. Either have one blitz or bring the house to make the wideouts cut short their route. This seems to be the only way to stop this since our talent sucks where needed. Make lemonade with the lemons (fallen ones that have been in the dirt for 3 days) that we have on this roster.

cutthemdown
10-16-2008, 03:25 AM
How the hell can you say that?

Didn't you say same thing when I said Hamza stunk.

Why do I say it. I'll tell you why I just don't make it up.

1- He's small only 5-11 200 pounds and doesn't play physical enough to make up for it.

2- When I watched him at Penn State he seems fast enough, but also seemed to lack natural coverage ability. In the pros this has proven true. Isolated 1-1 he gets burnt. He's decent in a zone, but in todays NFL offenses will get you isolated.

3- He seems to go for the big hit and misses to many tackles for my taste.

4- My overall opinion is that he is athletic enough, fast enough, but just not that great of insticts as far as football goes, and it shows when he gets matched up vs good football players.

Blart
10-16-2008, 04:41 AM
knocking him down a notch and replacing him might send a message to the rest of the slackers.

And that message wasn't sent with all of our other safeties?

elsid13
10-16-2008, 04:57 AM
Kenoy Kennedy was lightyears ahead of anything we have no. I cannot believe we let him go. Sam Brandon was another decent safety we got rid of. Brandon was very good at covering TE's.

I hope we go out and get ourselves a safety or 3. Taylor Mays or Myron Rolle would be huuuge.

Kenndy was offered a deal by Detroit that Bronco didn't think was financial wise to match at the time. Brandon had a knee injury that put him out of NFL. It wasn't like Denver let him.

TallyBronco
10-16-2008, 05:35 AM
This problem won't get solved until the off season, if at all. Unless Hixon can play safety.

kappys
10-16-2008, 06:36 AM
So you would say wilson was better mlb than superbowl mvp ray lewis?

Yes

HEAV
10-16-2008, 06:38 AM
Doesn't mean jacksh*t when you can't get pressure of the qaurterback.

55CrushEm
10-16-2008, 07:22 AM
I said when we signed these scrubs it was a joke and it has proven true. Neither Manual or or McCree are starting caliber safety's. For the last 3 yrs we have all been saying to draft some young safety's but I guess Shanny likes scrubs or old FA at that position.

I don't get it because Broncos history is to have great safety's.

Dennis Smith= 15th pick in the first round
Steve Atwater=20th pick in the first round
Mike Harden== 5th round pick
Billy Thompson=3rd round pick

We have a great history at safety because the team valued the position and drafted to make it good. You can't neglect picking safety's in the draft and expect to continue such a tradition.

All those guys you mention were drafted pre-Shanahan. So we can't say it's been in SHANNY'S history to draft great safeties......pity.

~Crash~
10-16-2008, 09:04 AM
Kenoy Kennedy was lightyears ahead of anything we have no. I cannot believe we let him go. Sam Brandon was another decent safety we got rid of. Brandon was very good at covering TE's.

I hope we go out and get ourselves a safety or 3. Taylor Mays or Myron Rolle would be huuuge.

well hell all we have to do is call the man!!!!!!!!! he is a FA :strong:

~Crash~
10-16-2008, 09:20 AM
Sam Brandon got hurt and never came back to bad because he was a good FS

Kennedy was a SS

socalorado
10-16-2008, 09:22 AM
Well, as many here know i have always been a hopeful fan of drafting a safety high in the last 2 drafts. Oh well.
This team is not getting better with Lowry back there.
This just signals the simple fact that DEN is one step closer to going with the youth and seeing what transpires at the position before next years draft.
I say let Woodyard/Barrett/Rogers play now.
Cant hurt anything.
This team will have to simply put up huge offensive numbers if it wants to make the playoffs. 35 points a game minimum, and abandon the defensive schemes that change every series.

Then depending on what DEN has at safety,
Patrick Chung, SS, Oregon
Height: 6-0. Weight: 210.
Projected 40 Time: 4.46.
Projected Round (2009): 2.
2007: A tough tackler with speed and versatility, Patrick Chung has decided to stay for his senior season after declaring for the 2008 NFL Draft.

Chung just doesn't miss football games; going into the Arizona State contest, he's making his 34th straight start. He had four picks and two sacks as a sophomore.

or

Nic Harris, SS, Oklahoma
Height: 6-3. Weight: 225.
Projected 40 Time: 4.55.
Projected Round (2009): 2.
5/19/09: Nic Harris had 74 tackles, 9.5 tackles for loss, 3.5 sacks and two interceptions. His 40 time will hurt him if he runs in the mid-4.6s.

2007: Nic Harris, a key component of Oklahoma's secondary, is exceptional at locking down against the run. He started eight games as a sophomore, registering three sacks and four picks.

or

Kevin Ellison, SS, USC
Height: 6-1. Weight: 225.
Projected 40 Time: 4.63.
Projected Round (2009): 3.
5/19/09: Despite having knee surgery prior to the 2007 season, Kevin Ellison played in every game and recorded 54 tackles, 6.5 tackles for loss and two picks.

2007: Kevin Ellison started every game as a sophomore for USC, notching 64 tackles and a pick.

And then for the FS position,

Rashad Johnson, FS, Alabama
Height: 6-0. Weight: 189.
Projected 40 Time: 4.44.
Projected Round (2009): 4-5.
5/19/09: A member of the first team All-SEC, Rashad Johnson had 94 tackles 5.5 tackles for loss and eight pass breakups.

2007: Made his first start against Hawaii last year and hasn't looked back. Rashad Johnson has become an important part of Alabama's secondary. He can help in the return game at the next level.


I say use the 1st round pick on a MLB or a D-lineman, and go safety in the next couple rounds.
Also, i was hoping DEN would go after OJ Atogwe FS from STL with a trade. Oh well, he would command a high pick, but he is well worth it in the offseason and would solve the FS spot for years to come.
Just sayin........

Punisher
10-16-2008, 09:34 AM
09 draft a MLB and a SS please

WyoLaw
10-16-2008, 09:43 AM
I'd rather have read Lowry takes over for Manual, but I'll take it.

My thoughts exactly.

Fusionfrontman
10-16-2008, 09:54 AM
Well I think we've agreed the reason we don;'t really come up with creative blitzes is b/c of the weakness at saftey. So if we get tons of pressure created by LB's, and our Saftey's cant make a read on the ball and are out of possition, what is the pt?

Kinda makes me say yeah, maybe S is our biggest need next yr.

MVP-06
10-16-2008, 10:00 AM
no more drunk stumbling behind opposing running backs as they break away???? well, there goes (a portion of) the comedy I witness every sunday...

:thumbsup:


tries to cover up for his obvious lack of speed, even LJ was pulling away from him

Hamrob
10-16-2008, 10:19 AM
YesWow, I liked Al Wilson...but i certainly don't think he was in the same league as Ray Lewis. I definitely don't think that Lewis is or was overrated either.

I'm not saying that Al gave up much to Lewis....Al was the leader of our defense...but our defense (w/Al) has never been all that great. Ray Lewis has made the Ravens defense great...year in and year out.

Popps
10-16-2008, 10:35 AM
Not a good comparison. Wilson was a better MLB than Ray Ray.

Wow, man... I love Al and can't stand Lewis, but that's a pretty bold statement. Not sure you'll find many people outside of this board to agree with you.

Kaylore
10-16-2008, 10:37 AM
Well...at least they recognize that they have a problem, and that's the first step

qft

Popps
10-16-2008, 10:40 AM
Yea, you just have to wonder how our two biggest off-season targets turn out to be planted on the bench by game 6. One never made the starting line-up.

To say our front office is hit and miss is an understatement.

Right now, Robinson looks like about the only defensive move in the past two years that has improved the team remotely.

kappys
10-16-2008, 10:41 AM
Wow, I liked Al Wilson...but i certainly don't think he was in the same league as Ray Lewis. I definitely don't think that Lewis is or was overrated either.

I'm not saying that Al gave up much to Lewis....Al was the leader of our defense...but our defense (w/Al) has never been all that great. Ray Lewis has made the Ravens defense great...year in and year out.

No Ray Lewis had a great defense around him and put on the finishing touches. Do i think Al Wilson ever had a year quite like Ray's MVP/superbowl year? No. Do I think Ray Lewis declined substantially about 2 years later whereas Al played at an extremely high level until he was forced to leave the game because of injury? Yes.

Al Wilson took a poor defense and turned them into a very good one. He also had more football smarts than almost anyone in the game and was a big reason that our below average players were often in position to make plays.

I don't personally care how others even on this board would rate him. I doubt they bothered to watch many Ravens games after the SB year. I was stuck in hell in Cleveland and Youngstown in those years and watched a ton of their games. Ray Ray declined quickly but had a great defense and a commitment to building a defensive team around him that kept the decline from being so apparent.

If could build a team from scratch and take a rookie Ray Lewis or a rookie Al Wilson to be my MLB there is no doubt in my mind who I would choose.

Eldorado
10-16-2008, 10:41 AM
Not a good comparison. Wilson was a better MLB than Ray Ray.

Always thought so too.

bronco militia
10-16-2008, 10:41 AM
Yea, you just have to wonder how our two biggest off-season targets turn out to be planted on the bench by game 6. One never made the starting line-up.

To say our front office is hit and miss is an understatement.

Right now, Robinson looks like about the only defensive move in the past two years that has improved the team remotely.


maybe ....I say you get what you pay for

bowtown
10-16-2008, 10:49 AM
Wow, I liked Al Wilson...but i certainly don't think he was in the same league as Ray Lewis.

I'm not saying that Al gave up much to Lewis....Al was the leader of our defense...but our defense (w/Al) has never been all that great.

:kiddingme

Ray Lewis has made the Ravens defense great...year in and year out.

Tony Siragusa, Sam Adams, Adalius Thomas, Peter Boulware, Rod Woodson, Chris McCalister and Ed Reed all say hi!

BroncoBuff
10-16-2008, 11:02 AM
Not a good comparison. Wilson was a better MLB than Ray Ray.
Come on, man. We all love the Broncos, but "reality" exists independently of our allegiances, and stupid Ray-Ray had a couple years of the best MLB play in the history of the game. Could Al Wilson have matched it with two battleship-solid DTs in front of him? Maybe, but we'll never find out.

As far as Lowry, I've been the biggest Broncos safety basher around here lately ... McRee, Manual and Fox are all journeymen - 15 NFL stops between them. But Lowry deserves a fresh look here ... on paper, he had a fine season last year in Tennessee. 5 tackles per start, 10 passes defensed, 2 picks:

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/2844/12528556zg2.jpg


ANYBODY ... please give me a nutshell on how Abdullah burned out so far, so fast. From future star - to starter - to backup - to deactivated - to waived. All in six weeks ???

bronco militia
10-16-2008, 11:03 AM
ANYBODY ... please give me a nutshell on how Abdullah burned out so far, so fast. From future star - to starter - to backup - to deactivated - to waived. All in six weeks ???

he wasn't that good to begin with......

Lolad
10-16-2008, 11:18 AM
Part of the problem with the Safety's giving up the big play is the fact that on running downs we bring one up to the LOS. The LB's then crash the line which results in them getting mixed in to the 1st line of Defense and their is no 2nd level.

I think the safety should play off the LOS, make the read and then come up and make the tackle if they get past the LB's

cutthemdown
10-16-2008, 11:22 AM
No Ray Lewis had a great defense around him and put on the finishing touches. Do i think Al Wilson ever had a year quite like Ray's MVP/superbowl year? No. Do I think Ray Lewis declined substantially about 2 years later whereas Al played at an extremely high level until he was forced to leave the game because of injury? Yes.

Al Wilson took a poor defense and turned them into a very good one. He also had more football smarts than almost anyone in the game and was a big reason that our below average players were often in position to make plays.

I don't personally care how others even on this board would rate him. I doubt they bothered to watch many Ravens games after the SB year. I was stuck in hell in Cleveland and Youngstown in those years and watched a ton of their games. Ray Ray declined quickly but had a great defense and a commitment to building a defensive team around him that kept the decline from being so apparent.

If could build a team from scratch and take a rookie Ray Lewis or a rookie Al Wilson to be my MLB there is no doubt in my mind who I would choose.

except Ray Lewis playing well right now and Al Wilson is done.

kappys
10-16-2008, 11:25 AM
except Ray Lewis playing well right now and Al Wilson is done.

Does that mean that Terrell Davis is in fact worse than Warrick Dunn who is still playing?

Al got injured and was unable to return to the game physically. Those are the breaks but they don't factor into my evaluation of how he played when he was healthy.

Drek
10-16-2008, 11:27 AM
Wow, I liked Al Wilson...but i certainly don't think he was in the same league as Ray Lewis. I definitely don't think that Lewis is or was overrated either.

I'm not saying that Al gave up much to Lewis....Al was the leader of our defense...but our defense (w/Al) has never been all that great. Ray Lewis has made the Ravens defense great...year in and year out.

When Ray Lewis missed basically a whole season Edgerton Hartwell stepped in and the Ravens defense was still very good. He made a ton of tackles, looked like a real good player.

He's sucked everywhere else since.

When we lost Al Wilson we went from a top 10 defense to a bottom 5. Immediately. You can blame last year party on scheme changes but we're back to basically the same scheme now, with some improvements at DT, #2 CB, WLB, and SLB over what Wilson ever had to play with and yet we're still a bottom 5 defense.

So who's the real difference maker there?

Lewis makes plays for sure, but a lot of that is because of scheme and because of the standout talent he's always had playing in front of and beside him.

Al Wilson was the very definition of "defensive quarterback". Everyone in the front seven played smarter thanks to Wilson. Now they just run around like chickens with their heads cut off. Al Wilson could sit down in a wheel chair and him calling out reads would probably make us a better run stopping team than having Nate Webster at MLB.

BroncoBuff
10-16-2008, 11:27 AM
Does that mean that Terrell Davis is in fact worse than Warrick Dunn who is still playing?

Al got injured and was unable to return to the game physically. Those are the breaks but they don't factor into my evaluation of how he played when he was healthy.
Agreed ... nobody knows when injury may strike. Ray-Ray was almost sent to prison a few years ago.

kappys
10-16-2008, 11:27 AM
[QUOTE=BroncoBuff;2127403]Come on, man. We all love the Broncos, but "reality" exists independently of our allegiances, and stupid Ray-Ray had a couple years of the best MLB play in the history of the game. Could Al Wilson have matched it with two battleship-solid DTs in front of him? Maybe, but we'll never find out.[QUOTE]

Like I said Ray's best years were better than Al's, but he shone brightly and then faded quick whereas AL played at a high level for his entire career until he got injured.

It also wasn't just the battleship solid DT's. The defenses of the Ravens were superior at almost every position when compared to what Al had to work with.

broncofan2438
10-16-2008, 11:27 AM
Not sure on this move. Although it does seem that every time there is a blown tackle or a ball that should have been deflected McCree is right there.

BroncoBuff
10-16-2008, 11:29 AM
When we lost Al Wilson we went from a top 10 defense to a bottom 5. Immediately.

Al Wilson was the very definition of "defensive quarterback". Everyone in the front seven played smarter thanks to Wilson. Now they just run around like chickens with their heads cut off.
Absitively.

Rewind ... April 2007 .... BroncoBuff sez:

"Let's give the Bills or 49ers two #1s to move up for Patrick Willis."


:strong:

kappys
10-16-2008, 11:30 AM
Absitively.

Rewind ... April 2007 .... BroncoBuff sez:

"Let's give the Bills or 49ers two #1s to move up for Patrick Willis."


:strong:

I'm happier with Clady. Well maybe. At any rate it would have been a push IMO.

Drek
10-16-2008, 12:15 PM
Absitively.

Rewind ... April 2007 .... BroncoBuff sez:

"Let's give the Bills or 49ers two #1s to move up for Patrick Willis."


:strong:
I'm not sure they would've done it, they were very focused in on Willis, as well they should have been.

This hole at MLB was bound to happen. You can't fill in for a all-pro like Wilson overnight short of a brilliant draft move, which in turn requires a equal but opposite massive draft blunder for someone else, or an amazingly bad season (which we've never had).

Our best bet is to focus heavily on Laurinaitis and Maualuga in the upcoming draft.

cutthemdown
10-16-2008, 12:21 PM
Does that mean that Terrell Davis is in fact worse than Warrick Dunn who is still playing?

Al got injured and was unable to return to the game physically. Those are the breaks but they don't factor into my evaluation of how he played when he was healthy.

Ray Lewis IMO was a better player then Wilson. Wilson was good but Ray Lewis was a force and is still pretty darn good. You say he declined but he's still playing well right now.

BroncoBuff
10-16-2008, 12:44 PM
I'm not sure they would've done it.
You're right. Truth be known, I recall they wanted a bit more than two #1s. I rationalize that by saying we could've given them our #22 plus the picks we spent to move up to #17 for Jarvis Moss ;D

The Clady pick though, at least in hindsight, would've been a lot to give up. As much as I love Clady, and I definitely do, I also stand by my point in the other thread that I'd swap him for Demarcus Ware. We still would've had a good O-line ... Ryan Harris would be the LT, Chris Kuper RT. And then if Dominos Pizza would've blocked Montrae Holland's phone number, we'd be set.

All this hindsight second-guessing is a real waste of time. It's a real lawyer thing.

bronco militia
10-16-2008, 12:48 PM
al wilson was a good player, but I thought he was overated.

He missed to many tackles

kappys
10-16-2008, 12:49 PM
Ray Lewis IMO was a better player then Wilson. Wilson was good but Ray Lewis was a force and is still pretty darn good. You say he declined but he's still playing well right now.

Ray Lewis is nowhere near the LB he used to be and the decline happened shortly after they won the SB.

Just a difference of opinion I guess. For a brief period Ray Lewis was better but take the career of Al Wilson versus any similar length of time for Ray Lewis (say any 7 years of your choosing) and I think Al did better overall.

bronco militia
10-16-2008, 12:49 PM
there's only been one great defensive player in denver the last 8 years and that's Champ Bailey

kappys
10-16-2008, 12:50 PM
al wilson was a good player, but I thought he was overated.

He missed to many tackles

He was a machine until he got injured - then he just wasn't able to wrap up. I completely disagree here and I suspect you are thinking of his last season in Denver rather than the previous ones. If that's not the case then you are welcome to your opinion but by that standard there would only be a handful of good tacklers total in the NFL

WolfpackGuy
10-16-2008, 12:52 PM
They shoulda went after Patrick Willis in 2007. How much more would it have taken to move up from 21 to 11 instead of 21 to 17?

bronco militia
10-16-2008, 12:53 PM
He was a machine until he got injured - then he just wasn't able to wrap up. I completely disagree here and I suspect you are thinking of his last season in Denver rather than the previous ones. If that's not the case then you are welcome to your opinion but by that standard there would only be a handful of good tacklers total in the NFL

again, just my opinion.

al had two bad shoulders for most of his career.

and yes, every year defensive players in both college and in the pros seeem to get worse.

just look at last weekend. there was a whole lot of defensive suck on display on saturday, sunday and monday

BroncoBuff
10-16-2008, 12:57 PM
They shoulda went after Patrick Willis in 2007. How much more would it have taken to move up from 21 to 11 instead of 21 to 17?
That conversation starts on the previous page in this thread ...

Drek
10-16-2008, 01:29 PM
You're right. Truth be known, I recall they wanted a bit more than two #1s. I rationalize that by saying we could've given them our #22 plus the picks we spent to move up to #17 for Jarvis Moss ;D

The Clady pick though, at least in hindsight, would've been a lot to give up. As much as I love Clady, and I definitely do, I also stand by my point in the other thread that I'd swap him for Demarcus Ware. We still would've had a good O-line ... Ryan Harris would be the LT, Chris Kuper RT. And then if Dominos Pizza would've blocked Montrae Holland's phone number, we'd be set.

All this hindsight second-guessing is a real waste of time. It's a real lawyer thing.

I don't even know if that would've done it. The Nolan era 49ers seem pretty reticent to trade back no matter what. Kind of a "we were really this bad so we really need a game changer" kind of mindset. Explains why they forced themselves into picking Alex Smith.

Also, any time you're talking about giving up multiple first rounders I get real doubtful. Willis is great but as I said in the other thread talking about Ware, Clady is a core component of what we need to make Cutler and Marshall the best they can be. Harris is solid but he's not nearly the talent Clady is.

Consider what the FO actually wanted to do in that draft though. The plan was to get two of Moss, Beason, and Harrell. When Harrell went earlier than expected they panicked and jump up after the one of the two left that they rated the highest (Moss) and gave up the picks needed to potentially get back into the 1st for Beason.

If we had gone for Beason instead how different would this team be? He's a very good MLB for Carolina right now.

Or if they hadn't panicked and jumped up for Moss, letting them use the extra 3rd and our second to make a move up after David Harris. That would've been a nice solution at MLB as well.

And if we'd held our ground and Moss wasn't at 21? Was Reggie Nelson really a consolation prize?

There were a LOT of things this team could've done better in the 2001 draft. But that is what happens when you go in looking to get specific guys for specific holes like they're some can't miss answer. We didn't play the draft game with any savvy that year and it cost us dearly.

It wasn't all about not going up after Willis, it was just a poorly scripted draft strategy in general, capped off by making a panic move and then taking the bigger risk of our two targetted guys.

montrose
10-16-2008, 01:45 PM
So here's the real question, how much (if at all) will this help?

ColoradoBuff
10-16-2008, 01:47 PM
Josh Barrett= Problem solved!

~Crash~
10-16-2008, 02:00 PM
When Ray Lewis missed basically a whole season Edgerton Hartwell stepped in and the Ravens defense was still very good. He made a ton of tackles, looked like a real good player.

He's sucked everywhere else since.

When we lost Al Wilson we went from a top 10 defense to a bottom 5. Immediately. You can blame last year party on scheme changes but we're back to basically the same scheme now, with some improvements at DT, #2 CB, WLB, and SLB over what Wilson ever had to play with and yet we're still a bottom 5 defense.

So who's the real difference maker there?

Lewis makes plays for sure, but a lot of that is because of scheme and because of the standout talent he's always had playing in front of and beside him.

Al Wilson was the very definition of "defensive quarterback". Everyone in the front seven played smarter thanks to Wilson. Now they just run around like chickens with their heads cut off. Al Wilson could sit down in a wheel chair and him calling out reads would probably make us a better run stopping team than having Nate Webster at MLB.

Very solid take !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

PRBronco
10-16-2008, 02:23 PM
This thread seems to have lost sight of the fact that we got one of the M&M connection off the field! One more to go! This will be a surprisingly big step towards getting better.

Popps
10-16-2008, 02:53 PM
maybe ....I say you get what you pay for

I've made that case many times. Everyone around here loves to penny pinch for the ****ing piggy bank, squeezing nickels together and hoarding draft picks we can piss away.

Meanwhile, other teams just go out and sign a guy like Kearny or Abraham and get big returns.

We got Simeon Rice, though. So, it's cool.

Popps
10-16-2008, 03:00 PM
That conversation starts on the previous page in this thread ...

Regarding your question about Abdullah, it's another excellent example of the strange moves this team makes on defense that just leaves you scratching your head.

Ian Gold is a starter for a couple seasons for us, then released with plenty of miles left on him... and can't find a starting job anywhere. Is he even in football anymore?

You just get the idea that this organization has absolutely no clue what they're doing on defense. Offense? No probs. But, besides Champ and Lynch, who were no brainers... we've done jack-**** in the past five years. We landed a situational pass-rusher who is too small to be a starter, and that's about it.

So, it's scouting... free agency decision making, player-coaching and sure, maybe scheme. But, when guys that are supposed to be starters for you are released only to not even be picked up by other teams, you have to wonder how much scheme really has to do with it.

We're just defensively inept. Shanahan needs to take a hands-off approach and turn the entire defense over to a coach and GM. I don't know if he lucked into his 97/98 defense, or if that was Robinson making those calls... but Shanahan has sucked ass on the D side of the ball ever since.

bronco militia
10-16-2008, 03:02 PM
I've made that case many times. Everyone around here loves to penny pinch for the ****ing piggy bank, squeezing nickels together and hoarding draft picks we can piss away.

Meanwhile, other teams just go out and sign a guy like Kearny or Abraham and get big returns.

We got Simeon Rice, though. So, it's cool.

did you expect our new guys to perform at pro-bowl level?

Ray Finkle
10-16-2008, 03:33 PM
Josh Barrett= Problem solved!

if he was good....he wouldn't be on the PS.

55CrushEm
10-16-2008, 03:36 PM
if he was good....he wouldn't be on the PS.

I don't know about that.....Jay Cutler was better than Plummer, but sat on the bench for 11 games in 2006.

bowtown
10-16-2008, 03:47 PM
I don't know about that.....Jay Cutler was better than Plummer, but sat on the bench for 11 games in 2006.

Yes, because that's exactly the same thing.

epicSocialism4tw
10-16-2008, 04:32 PM
I said when we signed these scrubs it was a joke and it has proven true. Neither Manual or or McCree are starting caliber safety's. For the last 3 yrs we have all been saying to draft some young safety's but I guess Shanny likes scrubs or old FA at that position.

I don't get it because Broncos history is to have great safety's.

Dennis Smith= 15th pick in the first round
Steve Atwater=20th pick in the first round
Mike Harden== 5th round pick
Billy Thompson=3rd round pick

We have a great history at safety because the team valued the position and drafted to make it good. You can't neglect picking safety's in the draft and expect to continue such a tradition.


We will need to draft one.

Lynch played here for a few good seasons, so its not that Shanny doesnt value the position.

However, we havent drafted a safety in the top 2 rounds in a long time.

epicSocialism4tw
10-16-2008, 04:37 PM
They shoulda went after Patrick Willis in 2007. How much more would it have taken to move up from 21 to 11 instead of 21 to 17?

Alot.

It would have taken alot.

Patrick Willis may be a pretty good player (generally very much overrated here), but he certainly wasnt throwing those kinds of assets at at the time.

broncosteven
10-16-2008, 04:47 PM
We will need to draft one.

Lynch played here for a few good seasons, so its not that Shanny doesnt value the position.

However, we havent drafted a safety in the top 2 rounds in a long time.

Shanny thinks you can get guys off the street to play Safety and Dline.

Drek
10-16-2008, 05:02 PM
if he was good....he wouldn't be on the PS.
Rod Smith started his career on the practice squad.

So did Matt Lepsis.

Josh Barrett is the text book definition of why the practice squad needs to exist. He's an amazing athletic talent with good football instincts. But in college those talents were put to best use winning games which did not always coincide with developing him into a polished pro level safety. He did a lot of different things and didn't get to focus on the nuances of being specifically a safety. That situation was made worse by some coaching issues as a senior.

The talent and instincts are still there though. He just needs to have his fundamentals worked on to reach an acceptable NFL level. It is a very similar end result as that of Wesley Woodyard, but Barrett was fighting for fewer roster spots than Woodyard and few contribute on special teams like Woodyard.

I wouldn't be surprised if Barrett is starting by the end of the year, but even if he doesn't I think he's got a legitimate shot to be a big contributor to this team as early as next season.

Ray Finkle
10-16-2008, 05:22 PM
Rod Smith started his career on the practice squad.

So did Matt Lepsis.

Josh Barrett is the text book definition of why the practice squad needs to exist. He's an amazing athletic talent with good football instincts. But in college those talents were put to best use winning games which did not always coincide with developing him into a polished pro level safety. He did a lot of different things and didn't get to focus on the nuances of being specifically a safety. That situation was made worse by some coaching issues as a senior.

The talent and instincts are still there though. He just needs to have his fundamentals worked on to reach an acceptable NFL level. It is a very similar end result as that of Wesley Woodyard, but Barrett was fighting for fewer roster spots than Woodyard and few contribute on special teams like Woodyard.

I wouldn't be surprised if Barrett is starting by the end of the year, but even if he doesn't I think he's got a legitimate shot to be a big contributor to this team as early as next season.


Nice try....Smith had Pritchard and Miller ahead of him. Lepsis had Tony Jones and a HOF tackle blocking. Neither case was their a need for WR or T and they were left on PS as is the case with safety and Mr. Barrett....

Popps
10-16-2008, 05:35 PM
did you expect our new guys to perform at pro-bowl level?

Are you kidding? With our track record on defense? Hell no. Of course, it would have been nice of one of them could actually earn or keep a starting job.

Popps
10-16-2008, 05:37 PM
However, we havent drafted a safety in the top 2 rounds in a long time.

Our last first-day safeties were Eric Brown and Kennoy Kennedy. So, I'm not sure if us not drafting more 1st day safeties is a bad or good thing.

Ratboy
10-16-2008, 05:52 PM
Before we go out and try to draft players, how about we find defensive coaches that can develop some talent.

Slowik is not the answer, never was, and never has been.

Natedogg
10-16-2008, 06:18 PM
Regarding your question about Abdullah, it's another excellent example of the strange moves this team makes on defense that just leaves you scratching your head.

Ian Gold is a starter for a couple seasons for us, then released with plenty of miles left on him... and can't find a starting job anywhere. Is he even in football anymore?

You just get the idea that this organization has absolutely no clue what they're doing on defense. Offense? No probs. But, besides Champ and Lynch, who were no brainers... we've done jack-**** in the past five years. We landed a situational pass-rusher who is too small to be a starter, and that's about it.

So, it's scouting... free agency decision making, player-coaching and sure, maybe scheme. But, when guys that are supposed to be starters for you are released only to not even be picked up by other teams, you have to wonder how much scheme really has to do with it.

We're just defensively inept. Shanahan needs to take a hands-off approach and turn the entire defense over to a coach and GM. I don't know if he lucked into his 97/98 defense, or if that was Robinson making those calls... but Shanahan has sucked ass on the D side of the ball ever since.

And resigning Warren for fairly big money, and then trading him for next to nothing. (I know it was cuz "he didnt fit into bate's scheme")

But still. That one still gets me mad.

azbroncfan
10-16-2008, 06:21 PM
I don't know about that.....Jay Cutler was better than Plummer, but sat on the bench for 11 games in 2006.

Practice squad and bench are completely different but you know that.

Dedhed
10-16-2008, 08:00 PM
To put it simply, it just evolved quickly into him not being needed.

- The broncos go out and sign to vets (McCree & Manual)...so that they have veteran depth.
- Then Abdullah gets hurt
- Then Lynch asks to be released
- Then McCree & Manual lock up the starting slots in camp and throughout the preseason.
- Then the Broncos sign both Barrett and Rogers to the practice squad and pick up Lowry off waivers.
- Evidently, they didn't think they needed Abdullah...with the depth they had

Personally, I wish we would have went with Rogers and Barrett from the get go. Both are young atheletic kids who can make plays.I saw more each Sunday from Abdullah than I've seen from Manuel and McCree through 6 games combined.

Dedhed
10-16-2008, 08:09 PM
Before we go out and try to draft players, how about we find defensive coaches that can develop some talent.

Slowik is not the answer, never was, and never has been.

The problem with bucking Slowik is that with another new system, regardless of whether the coaches can develop talent, the defense is going to struggle mightily because they'll be back at stage 1. How many years can we do that before the offense starts to decline?

I think we're better off sticking with Slowik and hoping he can develop a mediocre defense to go with a fireballing offense. We're 4-2 right now with a really good offense that still hasn't reached it's peak, and a terrible defense.

TonyR
10-16-2008, 08:26 PM
Regarding your question about Abdullah, it's another excellent example of the strange moves this team makes on defense that just leaves you scratching your head.

Ian Gold is a starter for a couple seasons for us, then released with plenty of miles left on him... and can't find a starting job anywhere. Is he even in football anymore?

You just get the idea that this organization has absolutely no clue what they're doing on defense. Offense? No probs. But, besides Champ and Lynch, who were no brainers... we've done jack-**** in the past five years. We landed a situational pass-rusher who is too small to be a starter, and that's about it.

So, it's scouting... free agency decision making, player-coaching and sure, maybe scheme. But, when guys that are supposed to be starters for you are released only to not even be picked up by other teams, you have to wonder how much scheme really has to do with it.

We're just defensively inept. Shanahan needs to take a hands-off approach and turn the entire defense over to a coach and GM. I don't know if he lucked into his 97/98 defense, or if that was Robinson making those calls... but Shanahan has sucked ass on the D side of the ball ever since.

Great post, right on the money. Just look at this year's FA. Niko=fail. McCree=fail. Manuel=fail. (Colbert and DJax haven't exactly been glowing success stories either on O) Look at all the garbage they shuttled in and out of the lineup last year. Look at our recent drafts, particularly Moss and Crowder. It's like they're throwing darts. You'd think this poor damn squirrel would eventually find a nut.

Rock Chalk
10-16-2008, 08:31 PM
Well, it canrt hurt swapping one ****ty player for another.

Its not going to help, but it wont hurt.

Ray Finkle
10-16-2008, 08:37 PM
Great post, right on the money. Just look at this year's FA. Niko=fail. McCree=fail. Manuel=fail. (Colbert and DJax haven't exactly been glowing success stories either on O) Look at all the garbage they shuttled in and out of the lineup last year. Look at our recent drafts, particularly Moss and Crowder. It's like they're throwing darts. You'd think this poor damn squirrel would eventually find a nut.

Weigman...Bailey....Colbert was flipped for a 5th...

kappys
10-16-2008, 08:43 PM
Well, it canrt hurt swapping one ****ty player for another.

Its not going to help, but it wont hurt.

Yeah but at least we're taking the younger player with some potential upside. Its pretty clear Mccree sucks and there is no hope for him getting any better. Lowry probably sucks too but at least he might improve.

TonyR
10-16-2008, 08:43 PM
Weigman...Bailey....Colbert was flipped for a 5th...

So 2 out of 8? Is that successfull FA? FA's are usually known commodities so you have to do better than that. I don't think batting .500 is asking all that much. And has Boss really excited you all that much? And that was an expensive 5th round pick for Colbert, not sure how Mr. Bowlen would rate this one financially...

uplink
10-16-2008, 08:49 PM
Rod Smith started his career on the practice squad.

So did Matt Lepsis.

Josh Barrett is the text book definition of why the practice squad needs to exist. He's an amazing athletic talent with good football instincts. But in college those talents were put to best use winning games which did not always coincide with developing him into a polished pro level safety. He did a lot of different things and didn't get to focus on the nuances of being specifically a safety. That situation was made worse by some coaching issues as a senior.

The talent and instincts are still there though. He just needs to have his fundamentals worked on to reach an acceptable NFL level. It is a very similar end result as that of Wesley Woodyard, but Barrett was fighting for fewer roster spots than Woodyard and few contribute on special teams like Woodyard.

I wouldn't be surprised if Barrett is starting by the end of the year, but even if he doesn't I think he's got a legitimate shot to be a big contributor to this team as early as next season.

I think Barrett didn't play well during the last preseason game. On one play he seemed to take a terrible angle and allowed a long gain on a dump off pass to a RB. I'm not an expert at analyzing players/games etc. but after that game I was bumbed and sure he would be cut.

Really there was a place for him on the roster as the last safety, so its not a good sign that he was cut.

Ray Finkle
10-16-2008, 08:52 PM
So 2 out of 8? Is that successfull FA? FA's are usually known commodities so you have to do better than that. I don't think batting .500 is asking all that much. And has Boss really excited you all that much? And that was an expensive 5th round pick for Colbert, not sure how Mr. Bowlen would rate this one financially...

Manuel was suppose to depth as was DJax. Boss has played well....and what about Pittman? I think that is closer to .500...

Hit:
-Weigmann
-Bailey
-DJax -Depth WR
-Pitmman-Starter
-Clemons-backup
-Shaw-backup

Miss:
-Niko
-Mcree
-Colbert but flipped him for a pick
-Manuel- Back up starting

TonyR
10-16-2008, 09:01 PM
Manuel was suppose to depth as was DJax. Boss has played well....and what about Pittman? I think that is closer to .500...

Hit:
-Weigmann
-Bailey
-DJax -Depth WR
-Pitmman-Starter
-Clemons-backup
-Shaw-backup

Miss:
-Niko
-Mcree
-Colbert but flipped him for a pick
-Manuel- Back up starting

I did forget about Pittman. But Bailey and DJax have been fragile, and Clemons and Shaw don't excite me. The "big" signings were Niko, McCree, and Colbert, and none will be in the starting lineup this week.

uplink
10-16-2008, 09:06 PM
Ty Law is available, is he too small (5-11 200lbs) to convert to a saftey? Maybe he wouldn't be interested.

Wonder why more good CBs don't convert to safety after they lose a step?

cutthemdown
10-16-2008, 09:14 PM
Ty Law is available, is he too small (5-11 200lbs) to convert to a saftey? Maybe he wouldn't be interested.

Wonder why more good CBs don't convert to safety after they lose a step?

Lowry is 5-11 200

Popps
10-16-2008, 10:43 PM
Weigman...Bailey....Colbert was flipped for a 5th...

From my perspective, I was just taking defense. Shanahan does a fine job finding offensive talent and making the best of it.

On defense, we've been a joke. Bringing up guys from the practice squad to start mid-season because the FA starters you signed were so bad? It's an embarrassment.

ANIMAL24
10-17-2008, 12:11 AM
Wow, man... I love Al and can't stand Lewis, but that's a pretty bold statement. Not sure you'll find many people outside of this board to agree with you.

rep for the truth! i love al and hate ray i thought he should be in jail, but the dude was a better linebacker. and now he is a little over rated but who wouldnt want him now in the middle next to dj?

Breaker
10-17-2008, 05:12 AM
At least if the guy makes a mistake he has some amount of speed to catch up, Mcree had no chance.

TonyR
10-17-2008, 07:14 AM
More evidence regarding how difficult it is to draft good safeties. This guy was considered a can't miss coming out of college.

Michael Huff's run as the Raiders' starting free safety is over after only five games. He's been replaced by third-year player Hiram Eugene.

Raiders coach Tom Cable said he wants intensity from his defensive players. Huff hasn't delivered in that department, and he also has struggled in pass coverage and open-field tackling.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/raiders/ci_10739009?nclick_check=1

socalorado
10-17-2008, 07:48 AM
More evidence regarding how difficult it is to draft good safeties. This guy was considered a can't miss coming out of college.

Michael Huff's run as the Raiders' starting free safety is over after only five games. He's been replaced by third-year player Hiram Eugene.

Raiders coach Tom Cable said he wants intensity from his defensive players. Huff hasn't delivered in that department, and he also has struggled in pass coverage and open-field tackling.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/raiders/ci_10739009?nclick_check=1

What amplifies this is the fact that OAK could have just drafted Cutler in that draft instead.
I HEART AL DAVIS!

epicSocialism4tw
10-17-2008, 09:07 AM
Our last first-day safeties were Eric Brown and Kennoy Kennedy. So, I'm not sure if us not drafting more 1st day safeties is a bad or good thing.

Ha.

I would have loved for us to draft Laron Landry. I think that that kid will be very good and have a long career.

I hoped for Reggie Nelson when we drafted Jarvis.

Popps
10-17-2008, 11:57 AM
More evidence regarding how difficult it is to draft good safeties. This guy was considered a can't miss coming out of college.

Michael Huff's run as the Raiders' starting free safety is over after only five games. He's been replaced by third-year player Hiram Eugene.

Raiders coach Tom Cable said he wants intensity from his defensive players. Huff hasn't delivered in that department, and he also has struggled in pass coverage and open-field tackling.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/raiders/ci_10739009?nclick_check=1

I honestly think safety is a place to get better value in free agency. I'd much rather see Shanahan sign or trade for a safety than to use a high draft pick.

kdissette
10-17-2008, 02:50 PM
I find myself asking this question......does this move make us any better or improve the position? No.

Drek
10-17-2008, 03:12 PM
From my perspective, I was just taking defense. Shanahan does a fine job finding offensive talent and making the best of it.

On defense, we've been a joke. Bringing up guys from the practice squad to start mid-season because the FA starters you signed were so bad? It's an embarrassment.

I only find it embarassing when we spend real money on them and they suck. Boss Bailey got by far the biggest contract of any new signing, and he's doing ok. Colbert? I'd pay a couple million to buy a mid-round draft pick with our success picking in that 4th/5th round area.

Niko not winning the MLB job was disappointing, but I'm beginning to question how much of that decision came down to neither one being a standout and them just going with the familiar face. I'd rather see Niko in there right now, he filled his holes and made solid tackles. Webster has more range but he's unreliable. We got rangey OLBs we can live with a less rangey MLB if he does his job and stops the run.

McCree and Manual, suck, but they were supposed to be backups. Unfortunately Hamza flamed out hard for some freakish reason and Lynch got a little big for his britches in terms of the role he was willing to take. That bumped them both up higher than where we wanted them.

We typically make bad defensive signings, and we made our fair share again this year. But this year we have a couple guys who got short, low money deals that are disappointing, not guys we're going to be saddled with the next three or four years watching them suck because they get paid too much to dump.

broncocalijohn
10-17-2008, 03:20 PM
I find myself asking this question......does this move make us any better or improve the position? No.

I find myself asking this question......does this move make us get off discussion of the other problems in defense and start a thread that can last 6 pages? YES!

Smiling Assassin27
10-17-2008, 03:25 PM
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:VGtzficcoXwJ::wsbufm.net/files_uploaded/Image/Vince_Lombardi_Trophy.jpg

Cito Pelon
10-19-2008, 11:30 AM
I don't even know if that would've done it. The Nolan era 49ers seem pretty reticent to trade back no matter what. Kind of a "we were really this bad so we really need a game changer" kind of mindset. Explains why they forced themselves into picking Alex Smith.

Also, any time you're talking about giving up multiple first rounders I get real doubtful. Willis is great but as I said in the other thread talking about Ware, Clady is a core component of what we need to make Cutler and Marshall the best they can be. Harris is solid but he's not nearly the talent Clady is.

Consider what the FO actually wanted to do in that draft though. The plan was to get two of Moss, Beason, and Harrell. When Harrell went earlier than expected they panicked and jump up after the one of the two left that they rated the highest (Moss) and gave up the picks needed to potentially get back into the 1st for Beason.

If we had gone for Beason instead how different would this team be? He's a very good MLB for Carolina right now.

Or if they hadn't panicked and jumped up for Moss, letting them use the extra 3rd and our second to make a move up after David Harris. That would've been a nice solution at MLB as well.

And if we'd held our ground and Moss wasn't at 21? Was Reggie Nelson really a consolation prize?

There were a LOT of things this team could've done better in the 2001 draft. But that is what happens when you go in looking to get specific guys for specific holes like they're some can't miss answer. We didn't play the draft game with any savvy that year and it cost us dearly.

It wasn't all about not going up after Willis, it was just a poorly scripted draft strategy in general, capped off by making a panic move and then taking the bigger risk of our two targetted guys.

Yah, David Harris would have been a good patient move. Not getting Patrick Kerney in FA kind of threw the DL plans into disarray and the FO never seemed to recover from it.

Popps
10-19-2008, 11:48 AM
I only find it embarassing when we spend real money on them and they suck. Boss Bailey got by far the biggest contract of any new signing, and he's doing ok. Colbert? I'd pay a couple million to buy a mid-round draft pick with our success picking in that 4th/5th round area.

Niko not winning the MLB job was disappointing, but I'm beginning to question how much of that decision came down to neither one being a standout and them just going with the familiar face. I'd rather see Niko in there right now, he filled his holes and made solid tackles. Webster has more range but he's unreliable. We got rangey OLBs we can live with a less rangey MLB if he does his job and stops the run.

McCree and Manual, suck, but they were supposed to be backups. Unfortunately Hamza flamed out hard for some freakish reason and Lynch got a little big for his britches in terms of the role he was willing to take. That bumped them both up higher than where we wanted them.

We typically make bad defensive signings, and we made our fair share again this year. But this year we have a couple guys who got short, low money deals that are disappointing, not guys we're going to be saddled with the next three or four years watching them suck because they get paid too much to dump.

True enough. Even in FA, we haven't fared well. I just can't see how we take a pass on guys like Kearney, Taylor and Abraham when they're available. Don't give me the "poor us" excuse, either. We manage to find plenty of $$ and high draft picks when it comes time for offensive signings.

Cito Pelon
10-19-2008, 11:51 AM
Regarding your question about Abdullah, it's another excellent example of the strange moves this team makes on defense that just leaves you scratching your head.

Ian Gold is a starter for a couple seasons for us, then released with plenty of miles left on him... and can't find a starting job anywhere. Is he even in football anymore?

You just get the idea that this organization has absolutely no clue what they're doing on defense. Offense? No probs. But, besides Champ and Lynch, who were no brainers... we've done jack-**** in the past five years. We landed a situational pass-rusher who is too small to be a starter, and that's about it.

So, it's scouting... free agency decision making, player-coaching and sure, maybe scheme. But, when guys that are supposed to be starters for you are released only to not even be picked up by other teams, you have to wonder how much scheme really has to do with it.

We're just defensively inept. Shanahan needs to take a hands-off approach and turn the entire defense over to a coach and GM. I don't know if he lucked into his 97/98 defense, or if that was Robinson making those calls... but Shanahan has sucked ass on the D side of the ball ever since.

I agree. I counted up the draft picks from '99-2007 in some other thread and I came up with 24 of the first 35 draft picks were D players. Too many swings and misses. It's a dang shame. Toss in horrible FA busts like Dale Carter and IHOP, guys like Traylor let go as too expensive. It's a shame the Denver D was the worst in most categories since 1967 in 2007 and on a pace to be worse than 2007 this year. FO failure.

Inkana7
10-19-2008, 03:27 PM
True enough. Even in FA, we haven't fared well. I just can't see how we take a pass on guys like Kearney, Taylor and Abraham when they're available. Don't give me the "poor us" excuse, either. We manage to find plenty of $$ and high draft picks when it comes time for offensive signings.

If memory serves, we tried real hard to get both Kearny and Abraham.

ludo21
10-19-2008, 03:35 PM
Lowry will get a pick, book it

Popps
10-19-2008, 06:15 PM
If memory serves, we tried real hard to get both Kearny and Abraham.

We made a pseudo-effort for Kearney, but I think Abraham was "out of our price range."

We apparently can't afford to sign a top-notch free agent defensive player, but we can afford to suck.

theAPAOps5
10-19-2008, 06:17 PM
We made a pseudo-effort for Kearney, but I think Abraham was "out of our price range."

We apparently can't afford to sign a top-notch free agent defensive player, but we can afford to suck.

Truth is they offered the exact same contract to Kearny as Seattle. Kearny said at the end of the day it came down to who would get to playoffs and a possible Super Bowl faster. He decided it would be Seattle.

I am trying to find that article where he said it.

The Joker
10-20-2008, 05:18 AM
Yeah I do recall Kerney saying that.

Ironically, we'd be looking like a legit contender right now with a guy like Kerney on the team. While the Seahawks are pretty pathetic right now.

Good decision, Patrick.

That said, I agree with the gist of what Popps is saying. If a quality DE hits the market next year, we need to go absolutely balls out to sign him.

WolfpackGuy
10-20-2008, 07:52 AM
Kerney would've been nice, but I thought it was either get Kerney or get Daniel Graham that offseason. Hmm, as horrible as the defense has been the last two years, would you have gone with the proven pass rusher or the tight end more known for his blocking...

The Joker
10-20-2008, 08:02 AM
As I recall we pursued them both, as did Seattle. I don't think it was ever a case of one or the other, though I can't be 100% sure of that.

We signed Henry to a hefty contract not long after that as well, so obviously the FO were willing to shell out a few bucks that offseason.

Obviously Kerney would have been a lot more useful to us right now than DG, but I'm very happy to have Graham on the team anyway. Can't begin to imagine the annihilation Cutler would have taken last year without Graham.

socalorado
10-20-2008, 08:08 AM
As I recall we pursued them both, as did Seattle. I don't think it was ever a case of one or the other, though I can't be 100% sure of that.

We signed Henry to a hefty contract not long after that as well, so obviously the FO were willing to shell out a few bucks that offseason.

Obviously Kerney would have been a lot more useful to us right now than DG, but I'm very happy to have Graham on the team anyway. Can't begin to imagine the annihilation Cutler would have taken last year without Graham.

AND! this year! Gaham is worth his weight in gold. Cutler is the least sacked QB for a reason, and although Clady has played at Rookie of the year levels, Graham is still worth so much to that o-line. I consider him basically as another quality o-linemen.

The MVPlaya
03-29-2010, 08:18 PM
per request... bump