PDA

View Full Version : How we got here


Arkie
10-15-2008, 09:08 AM
We need less ignorance among the masses. This is one of the most understandable and descriptive articles on the whole derivatives mess, fiat money, monetary policy, currencies, treasuries, interest rates, the great depression, and the gold standard. Give it a read if you would like to understand this current crisis better.

The current financial crisis stems from the decision to divorce our currencies from a reliable standard of value
Reuven Brenner, Financial Post

Gold is hovering again around $900, commodity prices are on the rise, and the U. S. dollar is back to its downward trend of the last few years. This isn't a surprise.
The $700-billion bail-out plan is mum about the dollar -- a big mistake (reflected in the immediate currency/gold price movements), since the Fed's mismanagement of the dollar as a reserve currency contributed to the present mess. The signals were all there for the Fed to see. Yet academic fads blinded it. How did we get here? More important: how to get out? Take a deep breath.
Abruptly, in 1971, the world moved from fixed to floating exchange rates without in-depth debate. Under a fixed exchange rate anchored in gold, 5% interest in London or 5% in NY reflects the same returns. Money, whether the dollar or the pound, anchors pricing. Coca Cola knows that in pricing its beverages and selling them around the world, or in issuing U. S. dollar denominated debt, it faces no exchange rate risk. The company is neither inadvertently drawn in the exchange rate business nor does it need to hedge and pay fees to avoid being in that business.
This is not the case with floating exchange rates. Every global business -no matter what it sells or buys and how it finances itself -- is in the currency business. Unless companies buy complex derivatives to insure that they stay in their own lines of business, currency fluctuations cause volatility in their costs and revenues. Financing companies becomes more expensive, resulting in a contraction of the non-financial sector and a large expansion of the financial one compared to a world adhering to anchored fixed exchange rates. The fact that national aggregates count the financial sector's expansion as increased well-being just shows how meaningless such measures are. The expansion measures the cost of adapting to bad monetary policy, which could have been avoided.
It has been a mistake to say that floating means "laissez-faire" for currencies. The main role of money is to be a trusted anchor for pricing. People's holding of cash as a "store of value" has always been insignificant. As to a medium of exchange: it fulfills this function properly only when people trust its stability. When the dollar plunges in terms of other currencies by 40% to 60% within few years, and when street vendors in emerging countries refuse dollar bills or accept it at deep discounts, as now happens, it becomes less of a medium of exchange. True, the dollar remains the reserve currency of choice because other countries mismanage their currency too. But relying on the mistakes of strangers is not a good policy. People want to understand that a promise to be paid 5% on U. S. Treasury represents 5% in their own currency too-- rather than, suddenly, minus 10%. When this happens, everyone speaks the same standard monetary language. When this is not the case, then it is gobbledygook to discuss what's "real" and what's not; what's floating and what not; and what clauses one must add to contracts to be reasonably protected.
Standards require agreements between parties, backed by institutions to enforce them. The standards may be arbitrary, as the "metre," "foot," "kilogram" or "pound" are. But as long as people know that their meaning does not change, it does not really matter which one anchors the various measurements. This is obvious, yet in monetary affairs this fundamental role of money seems to be forgotten.
Crises have been mothers of innovations in monetary affairs. This also means that crises have been mothers of forgetfulness too. But whereas in business if the innovation does not sell, management eventually closes the operation down, government-backed innovations, harmful as they may be, can last for decades and centuries.
The crises that have led to the present unsettled state of affairs, in which we lack a standard, followed a sequence of monetary mismanagement since the 1920s. In 1925, while serving as chancellor of the exchequer under prime minister Stanley Baldwin, Winston Churchill made the mistake of restoring the depreciated English pound (depreciated when the U. K. suspended the gold standard during WWI) to its pre-war gold value. This blunder increased the value of the pound, raising the price of everything denominated in its terms (relative to other countries' prices). Every contractual agreement -- including employment ones -- would have had to have been adjusted downward quickly to prevent recession. That did not happen. Economists misinterpreted the sequence of events and attributed the rising unemployment to rigid wages and prices, rather than the government's mistake to re-anchor the pound to gold at the wrong rate. In 1931, Britain abandoned the gold standard.
Britain's decision was likely helped by a sequence of events in Austria a few years before. The Austrian events bears similarities to what is happening now both in the U. S. and in Europe, and thus worth summarizing.
Credit Anstalt, Austria's largest deposit bank, saw its financial situation worsen after 1929. By 1931, its capital was wiped out. Instead of allowing it to default, the government injected funds -- giving rise to rumors that the losses were far greater than disclosed and that all banks were on shaky grounds. The withdrawals by both domestic and foreign depositors and capital flight continued. The central bank asked foreign banks not to withdraw deposits but it did not fulfill its role as lender of last resort. As the domestic drain went on, the government injected funds and also adopted exchange controls -- while pro-forma adhering to the gold parity of the Austrian schilling. Of course, you cannot sustain such parity when the trust in the country's financial institutions is gone and the government adopts exchange controls. The pricing in schillings loses meaning. However, instead of drawing the lesson that governments' misguided interventions and misunderstanding of monetary affairs were the culprit, the lesson derived was that having a pricing standard was the problem. A similar sequence of events took place in the U. S. in the 1930s.
Jump forward a few decades.
From 1944 until the early 1970s, Bretton Woods shaped the postwar monetary system: Participating countries agreed on the formation of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and they agreed to let their currencies fluctuate 1% to gold values or the (pro-forma) gold-anchored U. S. dollar. Since central banks did not adhere to the monetary discipline that such agreement requires, the new Smithsonian agreement in 1971 allowed for more than 1% fluctuations for currencies. By 1972, European countries formed the European Joint Float, agreeing on an even larger band of fluctuations in their currency rates. Countries continuing to print money with abandon led to the collapse of these agreements too in 1973. Governments could now choose to peg their currencies, to kind-of-peg their currencies (allowing for a range of fluctuations) or to allow them to float freely. For the pricing reasons explained above, these policies did not bring the desired results, and monetary discipline was not adhered to.
In fact, the 1987 stock market crash was caused by these misguided exchange rate policies. There was no significant bad news, no declining corporate earnings, and no sudden interest rates jumps. What happened was that politicians at the G5 meetings decided that they could change trade numbers by lowering the value of the dollar significantly. There have been no debates on the consequences of politicizing the value of reserve currencies and further distancing monetary policy from any notion of sustaining a standard. The possibility that financial markets could--and would--expand greatly and rapidly with a vast range of derivatives to accommodate such a floating world was not anticipated.
Stumbling from one crisis into another, Europe gradually went back to one currency, and is now in the midst of experimenting with something unprecedented again. Although Europe looks superficially to have a fixed exchange rate, it doesn't. For the very first time in history, a paper money neither is anchored in gold nor backstopped by a government. The Euro is only promised to be anchored in a nebulous politically negotiated statistical construct -- a European CPI, which is no standard for anything. People have no idea what the number means, whether or not the
European Central Bank will adhere to its mandate of keeping it stable-- whatever this number is -- and what European governments can do if the ECB does not carry out its mandate.
Because the dollar is backed by the U. S. government, the public's displeasure with its management can be readily expressed. Nevertheless, since the inception of the Federal Reserve in 1913, the U. S. dollar lost roughly 95% of its value in terms of domestic purchasing power. During the last few years the dollar fluctuated wildly relative to other currencies, in the plus/minus 50% range, and whatever were the Fed's declared policies, they did not succeed either in devaluations or in preventing inflation from rising.
Legally, the devaluation of the dollar is not called a "default." But that's what it is.
It is not surprising that financial crises have been on the rise. They always are when governments abandon one monetary system and bet on others, often based on half-baked ideas, or no ideas at all -- this is what today's floating exchange rate system and our lack of commitment to any standard implies.
To avoid such crises, people must know what their money is and what it will be worth. With no agreement on a standard, and without trust that there are institutions to enforce it, the world and the U. S. in particular are crises prone, as the expansion of credit based on the mismanaged reserve currencies can easily happen. It is time to get back to basics, to get rid of the jargon, and to see the monetary system for what it is.

-Reuven Brenner is an economics professor, holding the REPAP Chair of Economics at McGill University's Desautels Faculty of Management. The article draws on his Force of Finance (2002) and A World of Chance (Cambridge UP, 2008).

Rohirrim
10-15-2008, 09:14 AM
Hell, it's not just the "masses" who don't understand this. Most people in business and government didn't understand it either. These companies brought in PHD level mathematicians to devise these instruments. I doubt there is a more than a handful of people in Wall Street who could explain it.

Paladin
10-15-2008, 09:58 AM
What? A Harvard MBA is not able to understand this? How about a Yale MBA? Bula-bula.

William Jennings Bryant and the Cross of Gold. Silver and whatever.

A woman I once worked with was admiring a large diamond ring. She said it was worth $2,500. I told her I would give her maybe $10 for it. We had an extended discussion: she insisted it was worth the two and half Bigs, and I stood my ground that it was worth only $10 to me. We never did agree, so we did no business.

Point of having an underlying value standard is well taken. But this country does not have the means of creating anything of any value, whatever the standard. Most of our manufacturing plants, our fabricators, our "makers of things" have been shipped overseas and we cannot rebuild and compete without the political resolve to do so. I agree the monetary unit of exchange needs to be anchored in "something of value", but we, as a socio-political entity need to understand that monetary values are an expression of cultural values as well.

Technology, while fun and amazing, is not a suitable unit of exchange because it can be easily replicated by the Chinas and Koreas of the world. What they cannot replicate is our culture, such as it may be. Therefore, we need a change in the way we view the role of keeping jobs in the US, and not reward outsourcing of our creations to the rest of the world to "serve" us. We have little value to support our currency.

What if China were to suddenly say: we want you to pay is in Yens, and the value of the Yen is...."?

Do while developing that "Standard of Value" is paramount, the restoraton of the means for people to earn a protion of that value is even moreso. The single, most destructive loss of our culture and society is the loss of the "Middle Class". Without the middle class, our social fabric would be destroyed. The "Consumers" would be lost. Wealth and poverty would mean a significant divide and there would be no US of A. And we lose the middle class by shipping jobs to India and wherever.....


Who needs a tax policy? Unless the Politicians develop a sense of econoimic history, we won't have any money to tax, and there would not be any value to be had, anyway.........

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-15-2008, 02:29 PM
The current financial crisis stems from the decision to divorce our currencies from a reliable standard of value

That plus the Reagan tax cuts (which is when we went from pay as you go to borrow and spend.)

Rohirrim
10-15-2008, 02:37 PM
What? A Harvard MBA is not able to understand this? How about a Yale MBA? Bula-bula.

William Jennings Bryant and the Cross of Gold. Silver and whatever.

A woman I once worked with was admiring a large diamond ring. She said it was worth $2,500. I told her I would give her maybe $10 for it. We had an extended discussion: she insisted it was worth the two and half Bigs, and I stood my ground that it was worth only $10 to me. We never did agree, so we did no business.

Point of having an underlying value standard is well taken. But this country does not have the means of creating anything of any value, whatever the standard. Most of our manufacturing plants, our fabricators, our "makers of things" have been shipped overseas and we cannot rebuild and compete without the political resolve to do so. I agree the monetary unit of exchange needs to be anchored in "something of value", but we, as a socio-political entity need to understand that monetary values are an expression of cultural values as well.

Technology, while fun and amazing, is not a suitable unit of exchange because it can be easily replicated by the Chinas and Koreas of the world. What they cannot replicate is our culture, such as it may be. Therefore, we need a change in the way we view the role of keeping jobs in the US, and not reward outsourcing of our creations to the rest of the world to "serve" us. We have little value to support our currency.

What if China were to suddenly say: we want you to pay is in Yens, and the value of the Yen is...."?

Do while developing that "Standard of Value" is paramount, the restoraton of the means for people to earn a protion of that value is even moreso. The single, most destructive loss of our culture and society is the loss of the "Middle Class". Without the middle class, our social fabric would be destroyed. The "Consumers" would be lost. Wealth and poverty would mean a significant divide and there would be no US of A. And we lose the middle class by shipping jobs to India and wherever.....


Who needs a tax policy? Unless the Politicians develop a sense of econoimic history, we won't have any money to tax, and there would not be any value to be had, anyway.........

Yen is Japanese. Yuan is Chinese. ;D

W*GS
10-15-2008, 03:02 PM
That plus the Reagan tax cuts (which is when we went from pay as you go to borrow and spend.)

The problem isn't tax cuts.

The problem is out-of-control spending.

Do you send in extra every 15 April because you think your taxes are too low?

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-15-2008, 03:06 PM
Why the hell do you think we went from pay as you go to borrow and spend, W*GS?

It's because Red Ink Ron cut taxes on the top 5% so drastically that all the revenue dried up.

W*GS
10-15-2008, 03:12 PM
Why the hell do you think we went from pay as you go to borrow and spend, W*GS?

It's because Red Ink Ron cut taxes on the top 5% so drastically that all the revenue dried up.

"All the revenue dried up".

Prove it.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-15-2008, 03:17 PM
"Prove" that a tax cut of that magnitude = loss of revenue?

Are you kidding me? :laugh:

I guess you're too young to remember what America was like before the Reagan revolution.

How do you think we paid for all of our infrastructure, roads, bridges, interstate highway system, hospitals, etc?

W*GS
10-15-2008, 03:27 PM
Too ****ing chicken and stupid to back up your ignorant comments.

As expected.

Suffice to say "all the revenue dried up" is a total lie.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-15-2008, 03:43 PM
How ignorant do you have to be to not understand that a drastic tax cut like the one Reagan made on the top 5% means a loss of revenue?

That's W*GS for you.

And, BTW, if W*GS had bothered to read the Thom Hartmann piece "Roll Back the Reagan Tax Cuts" then he might have a better grasp of the issue (as well as a much-needed history lesson.)

W*GS
10-15-2008, 03:43 PM
Taken directly from

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy08/sheets/hist01z3.xls

that shows that LABF is full of it. Note that by the end of Reagan's presidency, government revenue had increased dramatically from what it was at the beginning.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-15-2008, 03:44 PM
The Hoover-Palin ticket

Link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-scheer/the-hoover-palin-ticket_b_134743.html)

Excerpt:

And the winner is ... FDR. Remember him--the great Democratic president who saved capitalism from the capitalists by reining in their exorbitant greed? Forget the Reagan Revolution heralding a new era of small government, which turned out to be nothing more than a fig leaf for legalized corporate crime.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-15-2008, 03:47 PM
Read this, W*GS - you might learn something.

Roll Back the Reagan Tax Cuts

by Thom Hartmann

Our bridges are falling apart (among other things), and its Ronald Reagan's fault.

A few hours before the bridge collapsed in Minnesota, a news release landed (among hundreds) in my email inbox. It was from the right-wing "Heartland Institute" and a Minnesota conservative group calling itself the "Taxpayers League of Minnesota." It read:
Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty (R) issued 20 full or partial vetoes of tax hikes and spending increases in May, giving taxpayers reason to smile. ...

May 1, Pawlenty, in a move that took everyone by surprise, vetoed an entire $334 million "emergency" capital investment bill. Pawlenty said in his veto message the bill authorized "more than four times more spending on projects than I requested and is simply too large."

Two weeks later Pawlenty announced another important veto, this one to block a transportation bill containing more than $5 billion in tax and fee increases...

"Buying down property taxes through local government aid programs has never proven to be a long-term solution to property tax pressures," Pawlenty said in a May 30 veto message.

Phil Krinkie, president of the Taxpayers League of Minnesota, agreed.

"Relying on the benevolence of local units of government to restrain their spending and lower property taxes when the state drops sacks of money in their lap is simply foolish," Krinkie said. "Thankfully, Minnesota has a governor that recognizes this."

The transportation bill veto is the only one the DFL [the Democratic Farm and Labor party which controls the Minnesota legislature] tried to override. The attempt came with less than 20 minutes remaining in the session and was defeated by House Republicans, led by Minority Leader Marty Seifert (R-Marshall).

"Democrats made too many campaign promises to win their seats and are now learning they can't pay for them," Marshall [Seifert] said after the failed override attempt.

Ultimately, it was the DFL's inability to override any of Pawlenty's vetoes--particularly of the transportation bill--that resulted in a comparatively small $3 billion increase in state spending with no new taxes.

Said Krinkie of the 2007 session, "Minnesotans really need to thank Gov. Pawlenty and Rep. Seifert's House Republicans. These guys stood strong in the face of overwhelming pressure and came through for taxpayers when they really needed them."
If by "taxpayers" one means "millionaires, billionaires, and corporations," the news release was accurate. And now its authors have blood on their hands.

After the Republican Great Depression, FDR put this nation back to work, in part by raising taxes on income above $3 to $4 million a year (in today's dollars) to 91 percent, and corporate taxes to over 50% of profits. The revenue from those income taxes built dams, roads, bridges, sewers, water systems, schools, hospitals, train stations, railways, an interstate highway system, and airports. It educated a generation returning from World War II. It acted as a cap on the rare but occasional obsessively greedy person taking so much out of the economy that it impoverished the rest of us.

Through the 1950s, though, more and more loopholes for the rich were built into the tax code, so much so that JFK observed in his second debate with Richard Nixon that dropping the top tax rate to 70% but tightening up the loopholes would actually be a tax increase.

JFK pushed through that tax increase to take us back toward FDR/Truman/Eisenhower revenue levels, and we continued to build infrastructure in the US, and even put men on the moon. Health care and college were cheap and widely available. Working people could raise a family and have security in their old age. Every billion dollars (a half-week in Iraq) invested in infrastructure in America created 47,000 good-paying jobs as Americans built America.

But the rich fought back, and won big-time in 1980 when Reagan, until then the fringe "Voodoo economics" candidate who was heading into the election trailing far behind Jimmy Carter, was swept into the White House on a wave of public concern of the Iranians taking US hostages. Reagan promptly cut income taxes on the very rich from 70% down to 27%. Corporate tax rates were also cut so severely that they went from representing over 33% of total federal tax receipts in 1951 to less than 9% in 1983 (they're still in that neighborhood, the lowest in the industrialized world).

The result was devastating. Our government was suddenly so badly awash in red ink that Reagan doubled the tax paid only by people earning less than $40,000/year (FICA), and then began borrowing from the huge surplus this new tax was accumulating in the Social Security Trust Fund. Even with that, Reagan had to borrow more money in his 8 years than the sum total of all presidents from George Washington to Jimmy Carter combined.

In addition to badly throwing the nation into debt, Reagan's tax cut blew out the ceiling on the accumulation of wealth, leading to a new Gilded Age and the rise of a generation of super-wealthy that hadn't been seen since the Robber Baron era of the 1890s or the Roaring 20s.

And, most tragically, Reagan's tax cuts caused America to stop investing in infrastructure. As a nation, we've been coasting since the early 1980s, living on borrowed money while we burn through (in some cases literally) the hospitals, roads, bridges, steam tunnels, and other infrastructure we built in the Golden Age of the Middle Class between the 1940s and the 1980s.

We even stopped investing in the intellectual infrastructure of this nation: college education. A degree that a student in the 1970s could have paid for by working as a waitress at a Howard Johnson's restaurant (what my wife did in the late 60s - I did so working as a near-minimum-wage DJ) now means incurring massive and life-altering debt for all but the very wealthy. Reagan, who as governor ended free tuition at the University of California, put into place the foundations for the explosion in college tuition we see today.

The Associated Press reported on August 4, 2007, that the president of Nike, Mark Parker, "raked in $3.6 million [in compensation] in '07." That's $13,846 per weekday, $69,230 a week. And yet it would still keep him just below the top 70% tax rate if this were the pre-Reagan era. We had a social consensus that somebody earning around $3 million a year was fine, but above that was really more than anybody needs to live in America.

In the worldview Americans held in the 1930-1980 era, Parker's compensation was reasonable. But William McGuire (aka in the business press as "Dollar Bill") taking over $1.6 billion - $1,600,000,000.00 - from the nation's second largest health insurance company (you wonder where your health care dollars are going?) would have been considered excessive before the "Reagan Revolution."

There is much discussion of what the floor on earnings should be - the minimum wage - but none about the ceiling. That's largely because effectively there is no ceiling, and those who control vast wealth in America are happy to have Americans fight over "How poor is too poor?" just so long as nobody asks "How rich is too rich?"

When Reagan dropped the top income tax rate from over 70% down to under 30%, all hell broke loose. With the legal and social restraint to unlimited selfishness removed, "the good of the nation" was replaced by "greed is good" as the primary paradigm.

In the years since then, mind-boggling wealth has risen among fewer than 20,000 people in America (the top 0.01 percent of wage-earners), but their influence has been tremendous. They finance "conservative" think tanks (think Joseph Coors and the Heritage Foundation), change public opinion (Walton heirs funding a covert effort to change the "estate tax" to the "death tax"), lobby congress and the president (who calls the "haves and the have-more's" his "base"), and work to strip down public institutions.

The middle class is being replaced by the working poor. American infrastructure built with tax revenues during the 1934-1981 is now crumbling and disintegrating. Hospitals and highways and power and water systems have been corporatized. People are dying.

And Bush, following closely in Reagan's footsteps, is making things worse. As Senator Bernie Sanders pointed out at recent hearings for the confirmation of Bush's new nominee for the Office of Management and Budget:
Since Bush has been president:

* over 5 million people have slipped into poverty;
* nearly 7 million Americans have lost their health insurance;
* median household income has gone down by nearly $1,300;
* three million manufacturing jobs have been lost;
* three million American workers have lost their pensions;
* home foreclosures are now the highest on record;
* the personal savings rate is below zero - which hasn't happened since the great depression;
* the real earnings of college graduates have gone down by about 5% in the last few years;
* entry level wages for male and female high school graduates have fallen by over 3%;
* wages and salaries are now at the lowest share of GDP since 1929.

The debate about whether or not to roll Bush's tax cuts back to Clinton's modest mid-30% rates is absurd. It's time to roll back the horribly failed experiment of the Reagan tax cuts. And use that money to pay down Reagan's debt and rebuild this nation.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/08/06/3003

W*GS
10-15-2008, 03:48 PM
How ignorant do you have to be to not understand that a drastic tax cut like the one Reagan made on the top 5% means a loss of revenue?

By the end of his presidency, the federal government was taking in 20% more revenue than it had at the beginning. That's not a "loss of revenue", by any stretch.

W*GS
10-15-2008, 03:50 PM
I already read that, dope.

The problem with the government isn't revenue - which has been growing by leaps and bounds for decades. The problem is spending, which is growing even faster, and is being driven by Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

But we've had this argument before, and you're immune to the facts.

In any case, since you think taxes are too low, do you send in more than you're obligated to?

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-15-2008, 03:50 PM
More proof that W*GS is full of sh*t:

The Reagan administration was the first to implement supply-side policies and call them that. Some maintain that they failed to deliver the promised benefits.<sup id="cite_ref-Case_.26_Fair_10-0" class="reference">[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply-side_economics#cite_note-Case_.26_Fair-10)</sup> <table style="border-style: none; margin: auto; border-collapse: collapse; background-color: transparent;" class="cquote"><tbody><tr><td style="padding: 10px; color: rgb(178, 183, 242); font-size: 35px; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; font-weight: bold; text-align: left;" valign="top" width="20">“</td> <td style="padding: 4px 10px;" valign="top">The extreme promises of supply-side economics did not materialize. President Reagan argued that because of the effect depicted in the Laffer curve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve), the government could maintain expenditures, cut tax rates, and balance the budget. This was not the case. Government revenues fell sharply from levels that would have been realized without the tax cuts.
- Karl Case & Ray Fair, Principles of Economics (2007), p. 695.<sup id="cite_ref-Case_.26_Fair_10-1" class="reference">[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply-side_economics#cite_note-Case_.26_Fair-10)</sup></td></tr></tbody></table>

Pseudofool
10-15-2008, 03:52 PM
We'll need more historical context; but the totally unregulated speculative trading that went on side-by-side with the sub-prime lending seem largely to blame to me.

Matt Taibbi has this astute analysis (in response to blaming "bottom feeders" for this mess).
Oh, come on. Tell me you're not ashamed to put this gigantic international financial Krakatoa at the feet of a bunch of poor black people who missed their mortgage payments. The CDS market, this market for credit default swaps that was created in 2000 by Phil Gramm's Commodities Future Modernization Act, this is now a $62 trillion market, up from $900 billion in 2000. That's like five times the size of the holdings in the NYSE. And it's all speculation by Wall Street traders. It's a classic bubble/Ponzi scheme. The effort of people like you to pin this whole thing on minorities, when in fact this whole thing has been caused by greedy traders dealing in unregulated markets, is despicable. http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2008/10/matt_taibbi_and_byron_york_but.html

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-15-2008, 03:54 PM
From W*GS' buddy Paul Krugman:

Reagan and revenue

Ah - commenter Tom says, in response to my post on taxes and revenues:

Taxes were cut at the beginning of the Reagan administration.

Federal tax receipts increased by 50% by the end of the Reagan Administration.

Although correlation does not prove causation the tax cut must have accounted for some portion of this increase in federal tax receipts.

I couldn’t have asked for a better example of why it’s important to correct for inflation and population growth, both of which tend to make revenues grow regardless of tax policy.

Actually, federal revenues rose 80 percent in dollar terms from 1980 to 1988. And numbers like that (sometimes they play with the dates) are thrown around by Reagan hagiographers all the time.

But real revenues per capita grew only 19 percent over the same period — better than the likely Bush performance, but still nothing exciting. In fact, it’s less than revenue growth in the period 1972-1980 (24 percent) and much less than the amazing 41 percent gain from 1992 to 2000.

Is it really possible that all the triumphant declarations that the Reagan tax cuts led to a revenue boom — declarations that you see in highly respectable places — are based on nothing but a failure to make the most elementary corrections for inflation and population growth? Yes, it is. I know we’re supposed to pretend that we’re having a serious discussion in this country; but the truth is that we aren’t.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/reagan-and-revenue/

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-15-2008, 03:56 PM
<center> http://www.bartcop.com/now-trickle-down.jpg
</center>

Rohirrim
10-15-2008, 04:05 PM
I already read that, dope.

The problem with the government isn't revenue - which has been growing by leaps and bounds for decades. The problem is spending, which is growing even faster, and is being driven by Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

But we've had this argument before, and you're immune to the facts.

In any case, since you think taxes are too low, do you send in more than you're obligated to?

What's your solution for Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security?

TheDave
10-15-2008, 04:10 PM
What's your solution for Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security?

Just a guess...

Cut them all, **** everyone not named W*gs.

Rohirrim
10-15-2008, 04:17 PM
Just a guess...

Cut them all, **** everyone not named W*gs.

I see the faces every day, elderly Americans who are saved by these programs. It's easy to issue forth lofty pronouncements of political theory when you don't have to look in the faces.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-15-2008, 05:12 PM
Just a guess...

Cut them all, **** everyone not named W*gs.

Ding ding ding! :yep:

Also, notice how W*GS fails to refute any of these claims:

Reagan promptly cut income taxes on the very rich from 70% down to 27%. Corporate tax rates were also cut so severely that they went from representing over 33% of total federal tax receipts in 1951 to less than 9% in 1983 (they're still in that neighborhood, the lowest in the industrialized world).

The result was devastating. Our government was suddenly so badly awash in red ink that Reagan doubled the tax paid only by people earning less than $40,000/year (FICA), and then began borrowing from the huge surplus this new tax was accumulating in the Social Security Trust Fund. Even with that, Reagan had to borrow more money in his 8 years than the sum total of all presidents from George Washington to Jimmy Carter combined.

W*GS
10-15-2008, 06:26 PM
Obviously, LABF needs help with his math.

Governmental revenue at the end of Reagan's presidency was 20% higher (in constant dollars, which takes care of inflation) than it was at the beginning. Likewise, the US population didn't grow by 20% over 1981-1989, ergo, the Reagan tax cuts didn't cause a drop in government revenue.

But, somehow LABF thinks a 20% increase and "all the revenue dried up" are identical.

In any case, do you send in more than you're required, LABF, because you think the government doesn't get enough money? Why don't you?

W*GS
10-15-2008, 06:29 PM
What's your solution for Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security?

Unwind them over the next 40-50 years by gradually reducing the special taxes that go to them, and use that time to wean folks off of them and instead become responsible for their own retirement and medical expenses.

That's how adults act; why do you insist on pacifiers instead?

W*GS
10-15-2008, 06:35 PM
I see the faces every day, elderly Americans who are saved by these programs. It's easy to issue forth lofty pronouncements of political theory when you don't have to look in the faces.

Will you say the same thing over the next 20-30 years as SS/Medicare/Medicaid bankrupt the government? What will you say to the generation after the baby boomers? "**** you"?

Rohirrim
10-15-2008, 08:31 PM
Unwind them over the next 40-50 years by gradually reducing the special taxes that go to them, and use that time to wean folks off of them and instead become responsible for their own retirement and medical expenses.

That's how adults act; why do you insist on pacifiers instead?

You'd also have to simultaneously do something to control the costs. What's killing us is not these programs, it's the costs of healthcare and medicine.

kappys
10-15-2008, 08:58 PM
These programs can be successful - but they can't be unlimited - there needs to be clearly defined boundaries for what care people can receive from these programs - and for others then there is tough luck.

Unlimited healthcare which is now promised requires either covert rationing of care or the abandonment of any new healthcare advances or research so that there are no potentially increasing future liabilities.

W*GS
10-15-2008, 09:01 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uTJVYDDFXPY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uTJVYDDFXPY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Bronco Bob
10-15-2008, 09:01 PM
These programs can be successful - but they can't be unlimited - there needs to be clearly defined boundaries for what care people can receive from these programs - and for others then there is tough luck.

Unlimited healthcare which is now promised requires either covert rationing of care or the abandonment of any new healthcare advances or research so that there are no potentially increasing future liabilities.

Why can't we have a healthcare system like other civilized countries in the world have?

W*GS
10-15-2008, 09:01 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Dp8ZmQMCtqA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Dp8ZmQMCtqA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

W*GS
10-15-2008, 09:04 PM
Why can't we have a healthcare system like other civilized countries in the world have?

Part of the reason is that these other countries ration health care too, just via governmental fiat rather than HMO or insurance company policy. They also get an implicit subsidy from the R&D that goes on here in the US.

kappys
10-15-2008, 09:08 PM
Part of the reason is that these other countries ration health care too, just via governmental fiat rather than HMO or insurance company policy. They also get an implicit subsidy from the R&D that goes on here in the US.

There it is in a nutshell. Unless you are extremely wealthy all health care is rationed. Health care in the modern era is a potentially limitless expense.

The nice thing though is that the rationing systems are generally much clearer and not hidden through mounds of paperwork and the other nonsence that characterizes the American method of rationing healthcare. Ultimately that has lead to improved efficiency - despite the fact that it is govt directed and not privately regulated.

Pseudofool
10-15-2008, 09:48 PM
That's how adults act; why do you insist on pacifiers instead?It's this sentiment, precisely, that makes you a bad fellow citizen, much less a good neighbor. Sir, we are not Islands onto ourselves.

W*GS
10-15-2008, 09:56 PM
It's this sentiment, precisely, that makes you a bad fellow citizen, much less a good neighbor. Sir, we are not Islands onto ourselves.

That's exactly right. What is it about merely being old that gives you a right to some share of my earnings? Because the government said so a few decades back, and is promising that future generations will do the same for me when I get old?

Pseudofool
10-15-2008, 10:08 PM
That's exactly right. What is it about merely being old that gives you a right to some share of my earnings? Because the government said so a few decades back, and is promising that future generations will do the same for me when I get old?Why don't you build your own roads and run your own military while your at making all your hard-earned own money, because I want no part of you.

Again, no man is an island. If you insist on being own, I'd really wish you simply move to remote one.

W*GS
10-15-2008, 10:12 PM
Why don't you build your own roads and run your own military while your at making all your hard-earned own money, because I want no part of you.

So giving old people money is the same thing as building roads and defense?

How so? Why limit money-giving to just old people?

Again, no man is an island. If you insist on being own, I'd really wish you simply move to remote one.

Beneath many left-wingers is an irascible conservative - basically, "Go **** off".

Thanks for the confirmation.

Crushaholic
10-16-2008, 04:53 AM
Oh look. A liberal icon advocated tax cuts. He was right then, and it's right to do so, now.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/aEdXrfIMdiU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/aEdXrfIMdiU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-16-2008, 07:14 AM
Oh look. A liberal icon advocated tax cuts. He was right then, and it's right to do so, now.

You neglect to mention one important difference: He wasn't talking about a tax cut that would benefit only the wealthiest Americans (like your boy McFlightsuit tried and failed with.)

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-16-2008, 07:15 AM
Why don't you build your own roads and run your own military while your at making all your hard-earned own money, because I want no part of you.

Again, no man is an island. If you insist on being own, I'd really wish you simply move to remote one.

+1 :thumbs:

Needa Pass Rush
10-16-2008, 07:44 AM
<center> http://www.bartcop.com/now-trickle-down.jpg
</center>


LABF is right. We need trickle up poverty.

W*GS
10-16-2008, 08:36 AM
As per usual, and with the usual dose of hypocrisy, LABF ignores inconvenient facts.