Jarvis Moss

[Ratboy]

I thought he played really well. When I got to watch the game he was getting pressure. I even watched him push a player backwards! :strong:

Moss is on the rise!

[BABronco]

shhh ... nothing positive to see here... you should be banned for such incompetence

[Atwater His Ass]

Moss still wasn't very good. He hasn't shown the ability to beat an NFL OT one-on-one on game day.

I also saw him push back the OT on a few plays actually, but he wasn't even close in making any sort of play.

I'm not throwing the towel on Moss yet, but he didn't show anything in this game to me either.

[Florida_Bronco]

They need to get him out of that 4 point stance.

I can also say with confidence that his troubles are not due to lack of effort. The guy goes full speed every play.

[Ratboy]

They need to get him out of that 4 point stance.

I can also say with confidence that his troubles are not due to lack of effort. The guy goes full speed every play.

It's coaching. Even Dumervil hasn't looked very impressive this year.

[Popps]

Well, if he's "pushing a guy back," he's not being used correctly. He's lanky and skinny. Dude shouldn't be trying to push anyone back. He should be using his speed and long arms as leverage to get around him.

Mediator talked about it already, but he's just got no moves. No spin move, no swim, nothing. Hey... sort of like Engleberger!

[HEAV]

It's coaching. Even Dumervil hasn't looked very impressive this year.

Granted he was struggling with a broken finger. But Elvis got a sack last week and was giving pressure today on a very mobile QB.


Moss was a reach/project in the 2007 draft. He was consider raw at Florida and was maily used as a speed rusher.

Ya want decent DE's? It's going to cost money or high draft picks...sometimes both.

[kappys]

Well, if he's "pushing a guy back," he's not being used correctly. He's lanky and skinny. Dude shouldn't be trying to push anyone back. He should be using his speed and long arms as leverage to get around him.

Mediator talked about it already, but he's just got no moves. No spin move, no swim, nothing. Hey... sort of like Engleberger!

He's not a bad run defender - making the Engleberger comparisons even more intriguing.

[Atwater His Ass]

Granted he was struggling with a broken finger. But Elvis got a sack last week and was giving pressure today on a very mobile QB.


Moss was a reach/project in the 2007 draft. He was consider raw at Florida and was maily used as a speed rusher.

Ya want decent DE's? It's going to cost money or high draft picks...sometimes both.

What pressure are we talking about? The one play where he got held? We got zero pressure on Gerrad today, outside of a couple of sell out blitzes.

[BroncoMan4ever]

I thought he played really well. When I got to watch the game he was getting pressure. I even watched him push a player backwards! :strong:

Moss is on the rise!

yeah he was able to push the guy back but he can't get away from that guy to get the QB

[Atwater His Ass]

which is good for nothing. when moss actually makes a play, we'll have something to build on.

[Popps]

I think evidence is mounting that we may have some real shortcomings at the position-coaches. That's not my theory, but I'm starting to buy into it.

[Ray Finkle]

Well, if he's "pushing a guy back," he's not being used correctly. He's lanky and skinny. Dude shouldn't be trying to push anyone back. He should be using his speed and long arms as leverage to get around him.

Mediator talked about it already, but he's just got no moves. No spin move, no swim, nothing. Hey... sort of like Engleberger!

Moss had a good spin move today....

[ozomulsion]

Yep, that dude spins like a kansas twister. I don't even know if that's a good thing. :)

[kappys]

I think evidence is mounting that we may have some real shortcomings at the position-coaches. That's not my theory, but I'm starting to buy into it.

Yeah its hard to know if its just inability to make a move or lack of coaching.

I still tend to think calling out the coaches is tough - they just don't have the talent there to work with. Doom for all we praise him is clearly a 1 trick pony and everyone knows what that trick is. He is not an elite pass rusher.

[yerner]

Moss made Gerrard throw early a couple times. He's getting better.

[Willynowei]

I think evidence is mounting that we may have some real shortcomings at the position-coaches. That's not my theory, but I'm starting to buy into it.

I agree 100% with this post. You can't tell me the Giant's GM is simply that freakin good at finding defensive line talent in the draft, its just not that easy; what about the other 32 teams.

When we accelled at zone blocking all those years it wasnt the draft picks, it was alex gibbs, and wherever he went, so did one of the top rushing attacks of the NFL (Atlanta, and one point houston).

The ony things in football that can't be taught are hard work and talent. If Jarvis Moss has both of those and is not succeeding, then i will pin his lack of success on the coaching staff untill either he improves or Shanahan brings in a new D-line coach. A "lack of moves" shouldn't be the problem, that stuff should be taught, with hard preperation any player should be able to learn when and how to use these moves, unless your telling me the kid has no hand speed which i doubt is the case.

On the other hand, this was the same Jarvis who said he's happy with his weight, that he's done gaining - a quitter's comment. And, anyone can play hard on game day, there's nothing special about that, so i wonder if he gives the same effort in practice.

[Broncoman13]

Well, if he's "pushing a guy back," he's not being used correctly. He's lanky and skinny. Dude shouldn't be trying to push anyone back. He should be using his speed and long arms as leverage to get around him.

Mediator talked about it already, but he's just got no moves. No spin move, no swim, nothing. Hey... sort of like Engleberger!

Do you think he's got no moves or do you think he's asked to push his man in a certain way to play for the run. Do you recall Trevor Pryce's comments a few years back related to this?

Yesterday was the first time I've seen Elvis use a spin move all year.

Yesterday was the first time we brought heavy blitzes.

NOW, bring those same blitzes on occasion and then show that look later and drop a few of them into quick coverages. I was certain we were going to do that on that last one with the QB draw. That was such an easy play for MJD to "Wham Block" DJ and open a clear lane for DG. If we run a fake on that play we hold them easily. It was nice to see the all out blitzes a few times but you also have to show that look, make'em think it's coming and then drop some guys into coverage. Most 3-4 D's do this effectively. Jimmy Johnson does it with a 4-3 in Philly. IT CAN BE DONE!

[oubronco]

I think evidence is mounting that we may have some real shortcomings at the position-coaches. That's not my theory, but I'm starting to buy into it.

I've had the same thoughts for some time now somethings gotta give the D-line can't be atrocious for this long with all the guy's thats came through the swinging door

[Los Broncos]

15 sacks this season, book it.

[Beantown Bronco]

15 sacks this season, book it.

If you mean the Broncos as a team, then I say.....maybe. :wiggle:

[oubronco]

15 sacks this season, book it.

LOL ROFL!

[Los Broncos]

If you mean the Broncos as a team, then I say.....maybe. :wiggle:

I was just ****ing around, I remember that Royal dude saying "15 sacks" ROFL!

[SoCalBronco]

I think evidence is mounting that we may have some real shortcomings at the position-coaches. That's not my theory, but I'm starting to buy into it.

This is correct and the reason is largely due to a lack of qualification for the position and/or good ol' boy reasons.

On the defensive line, we've had Jacob Burney here since the Rhodes days. Maybe he's a good ol' boy or something, but he's survived every purge even though his unit as almost always been the worst of the three from around 01-02 till now. This suggests he is a poor coach. Bill Johnson was highly touted by Patrick Kerney, but he hasn't done much with the 07 draft's DE's we got him. I'll give him some props for helping Thomas, though. Between the two, I'm not impressed, although at least Johnson is clearly qualified for the position having served as ATL's DL coach for a number of seasons and also have 20 years of experience coaching in the college game.

Jim Ryan might get some love as a former Bronco, but I don't think he's qualified to be a full time LB coach. He had previously served as a defensive assistant and offensive assistant/quality control guy, essentially the NFL version of a college team's grad assistant (altho it is noted that in this position he "assisted" Coyer with LBs, however, we did have a full time LB coach at the time in Kirk Doll, so I doubt he really did alot of coaching with them). I don't think its right that you can go from there to full time NFL LB coach without having been a full time LB coach somewhere else before, be it at least in college or in the NFL. But he didn't. He had no experience whatsoever as a full time LB coach anywhere. In fact, he has had no experience even being a position coach in college. He was a prior high school head football coach....and that's it.

Ronnie Bradford, same problem. Nepotism type of deal. No experience at all as an NFL position coach or even as a college position coach. He worked last year as asst. DB's coach and prior to that he was working as the special teams coach for a number of years. You can't just get former Broncos who retired and add them to the staff, give them something cush like ST and then ask them to be the full time DB's coach. They need years of experience coaching that position in college and/or the NFL first. Yes, he was a former DB, but coaching is different. If you look at his assistant DB's coach you find the same thing, its Ryan Slowick, Bob's kid. He's the asst. DB's coach. He's a friggin kid. He's three months younger than I am (I just turned 28)! Again, no experience coaching college DBs, no prior experience coaching NFL DBs. When his dad came here as the DBs coach (and Slowik Sr. was a fine DB coach certainly well qualified), he brought his kid along and we gave him that "defensive assistant" title again before he, also, got to play with the ST a bit to wet his feet. See the trend here. He's not qualified to be even the asst. DB's coach.

Up and down the defensive staff's roster, outside of Bill Johnson, you either see guys who haven't produced **** but have staved off firings for over 5 years (Burney), or guys who are FLAT OUT UNQUALIFIED. FLAT OUT. This would NEVER work in private business. Ever.

[oubronco]

I was just ****ing around, I remember that Royal dude saying "15 sacks" ROFL!

you mean Casino that dude was straight money :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[nickademus]

I really feel like this off season will be huge for Jarvis. If he comes into TC next year a little heavier and a little hungrier we may have something. But honestly I still view the guy as a Rook. Get him as much PT as we can afford and let him learn the game. The bigger dissapointment for me so far this year has been Crowder. I thought he might take some big strides this season but so far I havent seen much.

[Rock Chalk]

This is correct and the reason is largely due to a lack of qualification for the position and/or good ol' boy reasons.

On the defensive line, we've had Jacob Burney here since the Rhodes days. Maybe he's a good ol' boy or something, but he's survived every purge even though his unit as almost always been the worst of the three from around 01-02 till now. This suggests he is a poor coach. Bill Johnson was highly touted by Patrick Kerney, but he hasn't done much with the 07 draft's DE's we got him. I'll give him some props for helping Thomas, though. Between the two, I'm not impressed, although at least Johnson is clearly qualified for the position having served as ATL's DL coach for a number of seasons and also have 20 years of experience coaching in the college game.

Jim Ryan might get some love as a former Bronco, but I don't think he's qualified to be a full time LB coach. He had previously served as a defensive assistant and offensive assistant/quality control guy, essentially the NFL version of a college team's grad assistant (altho it is noted that in this position he "assisted" Coyer with LBs, however, we did have a full time LB coach at the time in Kirk Doll, so I doubt he really did alot of coaching with them). I don't think its right that you can go from there to full time NFL LB coach without having been a full time LB coach somewhere else before, be it at least in college or in the NFL. But he didn't. He had no experience whatsoever as a full time LB coach anywhere. In fact, he has had no experience even being a position coach in college. He was a prior high school head football coach....and that's it.

Ronnie Bradford, same problem. Nepotism type of deal. No experience at all as an NFL position coach or even as a college position coach. He worked last year as asst. DB's coach and prior to that he was working as the special teams coach for a number of years. You can't just get former Broncos who retired and add them to the staff, give them something cush like ST and then ask them to be the full time DB's coach. They need years of experience coaching that position in college and/or the NFL first. Yes, he was a former DB, but coaching is different. If you look at his assistant DB's coach you find the same thing, its Ryan Slowick, Bob's kid. He's the asst. DB's coach. He's a friggin kid. He's three months younger than I am (I just turned 28)! Again, no experience coaching college DBs, no prior experience coaching NFL DBs. When his dad came here as the DBs coach (and Slowik Sr. was a fine DB coach certainly well qualified), he brought his kid along and we gave him that "defensive assistant" title again before he, also, got to play with the ST a bit to wet his feet. See the trend here. He's not qualified to be even the asst. DB's coach.

Up and down the defensive staff's roster, outside of Bill Johnson, you either see guys who haven't produced **** but have staved off firings for over 5 years (Burney), or guys who are FLAT OUT UNQUALIFIED. FLAT OUT. This would NEVER work in private business. Ever.

It doenst work but it does happen.

I had to work really hard to get the projects I get now. I had to bust my ass and learn every single day something new and RETAIN that information because in my profession there is always something new to learn. Same with coaching. If I underperformed for a whole year in my job and didnt adapt to new technologies Id be out of a job. How Burney can last for 7 years is a ****ing miracle to me.

[Doggcow]

Can Jarvis Moss play QB? He's got to be better than Cutler, we'd kill 2 birds with one stone!

[WyoLaw]

Seriously, just get him on the field. He can't possibly be worse then Engleberger.

[Garcia Bronco]

Most of you don't go to games and don't even get to see what he's doing out there.

[Garcia Bronco]

Seriously, just get him on the field. He can't possibly be worse then Engleberger.

Except one is there to stop the run and the other is a pass rusher. The reason Moss isn't on the field that much is because he plays the same position as Dummervil.

[Br0nc0Buster]

Most of you don't go to games and don't even get to see what he's doing out there.

Please enlighten us then.
What is he doing that the cameras dont pick up?

[Los Broncos]

you mean Casino that dude was straight money :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yo for real, money cash ho's, how real is that wigga.

[Br0nc0Buster]

Except one is there to stop the run and the other is a pass rusher. The reason Moss isn't on the field that much is because he plays the same position as Dummervil.

Except MJD had 125 yards on us yesterday.
And Larry Johnsons had like 200 on us a few weeks ago.

Unless Moss is THAT bad at the run, is his prescence really going to hurt this defense?
Engleberger cannot rush the passer....at all

Seriously we might as well put Peterson at LDE if all we care about is stuffing the run on that side.

At least Peterson can somewhat get a push on passing downs

[2KBack]

Except MJD had 125 yards on us yesterday.
And Larry Johnsons had like 200 on us a few weeks ago.

Unless Moss is THAT bad at the run, is his prescence really going to hurt this defense?
Engleberger cannot rush the passer....at all

Seriously we might as well put Peterson at LDE if all we care about is stuffing the run on that side.

At least Peterson can somewhat get a push on passing downs

Well about 130 yards of that is on 3 runs. I mean that's 3 times where the D-line failed to get to the runner, and then the rest of the team **** the bed. 3 times out of 40-50 carries is actually not a terrible ratio. Big plays like that are more than just the fault of the DE. The concern is whether Moss can hold up to hold the RB to those 1-3 yard gains, like the Defense has done for the most part.

[SportinOne]

Yesterday was the first time I've seen Elvis use a spin move all year.



Then yesterday must have been the first time you watched a Bronco game all year.. because he does it ALL THE TIME. About 70% of the time that he does it, he ends up looking ridiculous because the lineman just stands there and pushes him back. Our D Line is SOOO weak at the pass rush.

Elvis is at his best when he just runs around the guy. He probably gets held about 60% of the time that he does this because he's so quick.

If this team is going to go anywhere this year, it's going to take guys like Elvis stepping up and making big plays.

[Atwater His Ass]

Most of you don't go to games and don't even get to see what he's doing out there.

Really? Because the camera do a pretty decent job of seeing what is happening at the LOS. If you were talking about coverage schemes in the secondary, maybe I'd buy it, but no, you can see more than enough from TV to see Moss and the rest of the DL pretty much getting it handed to'em on every play.

[lex]

Except MJD had 125 yards on us yesterday.
And Larry Johnsons had like 200 on us a few weeks ago.

Unless Moss is THAT bad at the run, is his prescence really going to hurt this defense?
Engleberger cannot rush the passer....at all

Seriously we might as well put Peterson at LDE if all we care about is stuffing the run on that side.

At least Peterson can somewhat get a push on passing downs


cosign. What have we got to lose if playing Engelberger means guys are going to run on us anyway.

[yavoon]

Granted he was struggling with a broken finger. But Elvis got a sack last week and was giving pressure today on a very mobile QB.


Moss was a reach/project in the 2007 draft. He was consider raw at Florida and was maily used as a speed rusher.

Ya want decent DE's? It's going to cost money or high draft picks...sometimes both.

moss was a first rounder, how much higher you want?

[Malcontent]

moss was a first rounder, how much higher you want?

What! Shanny traded a 3rd to move up 2 spots to get a project?? Wait till Wolf gets a load o that!

[Popps]

Hey guys... John Engleberger isn't "good against the run."

This myth was built upon the wobbly foundation that because Engleberger rings up a few tackles, he MUST be good at the run.

Or... he's god-awful on passing downs, so he MUST be good against the run.

False.

First off, Engleberger had zero tackles yesterday and Jax ran all over us.

But, go back a little further, and you'll realize that Engleberger "leading the line" in tackles is simply a result of him being the only guy healthy enough to play with regularity. Dumervil is situational player. We played musical DTs all last season.

John Engleberger is not "good against the run." He's an active player who is fast enough to chase plays down from the backside and get in on tackles more often than some players. That doesn't mean he's good against the run.

-He's not stout at the point of attack.
-He's easily single-blocked
-He's got no moves whatsoever.
-He's been the guy on the field the most for the horrific run this defense has had against the run this year and last year. Think that's a coincidence?
-He's rarely, if ever in the opposing team's backfield. You almost never see him making a play behind the LOS. He racks up the majority of his tackles on plays that were run away from him. When plays are run AT him, he's easily moved.

We all know he's horrible against the pass. A liability to the likes of which I haven't seen... and how he keeps a starting job is beyond me.


He's got 15 tackles and 1 sack through six games. That's about 2 tackles a game, and .01666666 sacks a game. He hasn't batted a pass down this year, and I don't recall the last time he has.

He's a complete liability and his "effectiveness" against the run is laughable.

[Holden]

I think evidence is mounting that we may have some real shortcomings at the position-coaches. That's not my theory, but I'm starting to buy into it.


This is false. It's 90% player talent. We have no talent. Repeat: we have no talent. Do you realize who Josh Shaw, Dewayne Robertson, and Kenny Peterson are? Fact: they are rejects from teams with superior players at the D-line position. Perhaps our coaches are marginal, but this theory is getting out of hand.

[Popps]

This is false. It's 90% player talent. We have no talent. Repeat: we have no talent. Do you realize who Josh Shaw, Dewayne Robertson, and Kenny Peterson are? Fact: they are rejects from teams with superior players at the D-line position. Perhaps our coaches are marginal, but this theory is getting out of hand.

The theory pertains more to guys we've drafted than guys we've brought in.


That said, you won't any argument from me that we lack D-line talent.


Talent, coaching, drafting, scouting, free agency. Take your pick, we've ****ed it up every way you can on defense. But, I still wonder at a certain point how other teams can consistently milk better results out of what they have.

Conversely, on offense... we tend to overachieve relative to the talent we have. So, this is a defense-specific problem.

[lex]

Hey guys... John Engleberger isn't "good against the run."

This myth was built upon the wobbly foundation that because Engleberger rings up a few tackles, he MUST be good at the run.

Or... he's god-awful on passing downs, so he MUST be good against the run.

False.

First off, Engleberger had zero tackles yesterday and Jax ran all over us.

But, go back a little further, and you'll realize that Engleberger "leading the line" in tackles is simply a result of him being the only guy healthy enough to play with regularity. Dumervil is situational player. We played musical DTs all last season.

John Engleberger is not "good against the run." He's an active player who is fast enough to chase plays down from the backside and get in on tackles more often than some players. That doesn't mean he's good against the run.

-He's not stout at the point of attack.
-He's easily single-blocked
-He's got no moves whatsoever.
-He's been the guy on the field the most for the horrific run this defense has had against the run this year and last year. Think that's a coincidence?
-He's rarely, if ever in the opposing team's backfield. You almost never see him making a play behind the LOS. He racks up the majority of his tackles on plays that were run away from him. When plays are run AT him, he's easily moved.

We all know he's horrible against the pass. A liability to the likes of which I haven't seen... and how he keeps a starting job is beyond me.


He's got 15 tackles and 1 sack through six games. That's about 2 tackles a game, and .01666666 sacks a game. He hasn't batted a pass down this year, and I don't recall the last time he has.

He's a complete liability and his "effectiveness" against the run is laughable.

I agree. In comparison, I havent really thought he was that much better than Moss in the times Moss has been in. I think it has more to do with what goes on on the practice field and I would never really challenge the idea that Engelberger is one of the hardest workers in practice--something Shanahan values. I mean, there has to be some justification for him playing, right? If thats the case, it would be good for Shanahan to at some point acknowledge that Engelberger is never to going to be better than what we've seen already and at the same time, Moss' development might be held back by this refusal to let him play because some no talent backup is a harder worker.

A couple of times Moss has been fairly close to getting to the QB and had it not been an easy dump off for the QB, he would have had a sack or two in very limited playing time.

[Br0nc0Buster]

Engleberger is trash.
The Jarvin is trash right now, but at least he is young and the potential for him to improve is there.

Engleberger is a veteran, this is the best he is going to get.

I didnt mind him earlier this year, but enough is enough.

EE please come back and stay healthy, and no more Engleberger please

[Popps]

Bingo.

Engleberger has a job because there is literally no one else who can stay healthy. Moss is too scrawny, and Crowder must be something god-awful. I can'te imagine what kind of ****ty he has to be that he not only can't win the job, but can't even get himself activated on Sundays.

[lex]

Engleberger is trash.
The Jarvin is trash right now, but at least he is young and the potential for him to improve is there.

Engleberger is a veteran, this is the best he is going to get.

I didnt mind him earlier this year, but enough is enough.

EE please come back and stay healthy, and no more Engleberger please

I think we should really give Moss a chance and let him find his way...rotate him with Ekuban but youre right on Engelberger...the guy brings nothing to the table on game day other than maybe trying hard.

[Popps]

I think we should really give Moss a chance and let him find his way...rotate him with Ekuban but youre right on Engelberger...the guy brings nothing to the table on game day other than maybe trying hard.

You could do worse as a back-up, but you won't find many starters that are worse.


Moving Peterson over actually isn't a bad idea. But, does that leave us with a hole in the middle?

[lex]

You could do worse as a back-up, but you won't find many starters that are worse.


Moving Peterson over actually isn't a bad idea. But, does that leave us with a hole in the middle?

Really. At this point, how could Moss be any worse? The situation with Dumervil has been problematic but youre right on Engelberger and so its hard to hide behind that justification to not give Moss more reps.

[uplink]

I think NE was a team interested in drafting Moss. Teams tend to say high on players they liked in the draft and notice players more during head-to-head play.

I know this is highly speculative but maybe if Moss plays next week this could help with an eventual trade if he doesn't pan out in Denver.

[DBroncos4life]

What the hell happened to Tim Crowder? How can he be this bad after last year he showed so much promise

[SoCalBronco]

Really. At this point, how could Moss be any worse? The situation with Dumervil has been problematic but youre right on Engelberger and so its hard to hide behind that justification to not give Moss more reps.

Why would he get more reps when he hasn't earned them? Plus....Moss plays the other DE position. He's way to slender to be lining up at DE on the strongside. He'd get ****ing raped. He's friggin Gumby. I'm sure the coaches would love for either of the two second year DEs to get into the starting lineup. They'd love it. But if the guys are looking like absolute trash in practice and Engelberger is looking just like regular trash, we don't put the kids in the game when the lights are on. I mean hell, its not like they never got a chance to play in a game here. They were BOTH activated this week and both played substantially and you saw the results. They got their chance. There's a reason Engelberger's a starter. Garbage > Absolute ****.

They've got to earn it. They've got to overtake him during the week. That shouldnt be asking alot, but apparently it is. It's not Engelberger's fault that those guys can't beat him out.

[lex]

I think NE was a team interested in drafting Moss. Teams tend to say high on players they liked in the draft and notice players more during head-to-head play.

I know this is highly speculative but maybe if Moss plays next week this could help with an eventual trade if he doesn't pan out in Denver.

Yeah, that would be awesome if NE just offered us a 1st or 2nd for a player who, to this point, has been unproductive just because they remained high on him. Somehow, I think its more realistic that they will want to get him at a bargain.

[lex]

Why would he get more reps when he hasn't earned them? Plus....Moss plays the other DE position. He's way to slender to be lining up at DE on the strongside. He'd get ****ing raped. He's friggin Gumby. I'm sure the coaches would love for either of the two second year DEs to get into the starting lineup. They'd love it. But if the guys are looking like absolute trash in practice and Engelberger is looking just like regular trash, we don't put the kids in the game when the lights are on. I mean hell, its not like they never got a chance to play in a game here. They were BOTH activated this week and both played substantially and you saw the results. They got their chance. There's a reason Engelberger's a starter. Garbage > Absolute ****.

They've got to earn it. They've got to overtake him during the week. That shouldnt be asking alot, but apparently it is. It's not Engelberger's fault that those guys can't beat him out.


Define earn. I mean in the limited time Ive seen Moss play, Ive seen him get closer to the quarterback than has Engelberger for the past year +. Like I said, if Engelberger sucks in the game, the fact that he works harder in practice isnt really a justification for playing him over Moss or Crowder...provided Moss and Crowder arent completely loafing.

[SoCalBronco]

Define earn. I mean in the limited time Ive seen Moss play, Ive seen him get closer to the quarterback than has Engelberger for the past year +. Like I said, if Engelberger sucks in the game, the fact that he works harder in practice isnt really a justification for playing him over Moss or Crowder...provided Moss and Crowder arent completely loafing.

It's not just working harder, its playing better. Clearly, the coaches feel that Engelberger is playing better...grading out better than Moss or Crowder. In any case, its not just rushing the passer, at SDE, you've got to be solid vs. the run. Moss is **** vs. the run. He can't gain anymore weight. He even said that. Engelberger isnt great vs. the run or good, or maybe not even average vs. the run, but he's ALOT better vs. the run and alot beefier than Moss. Moss at SDE is not even an issue. It can't work because he can't gain anymore weight. There was an article about it. How he tried and tried and couldn't gain anything. There's no way he can play there. Ever. It's always going to be him vs. Dumervil at WDE and he's not going to win that battle, either. Both of them suck vs. the run, but Dumervil is 10000000000000 times more proven as a pass rusher. That's a battle Jarvis is probably never going to win. I don't see how this is going to work for Jarvis in the forseeable future. I really dont.

Crowder, that's another story. He was brought in to be an Ekuban clone and man the SDE spot in the future, getting about six sacks a year but being solid vs. the run. He could still someday do that. He actually showed something last year. Crowder still could be the guy there, but I don't see how Moss can fit anywhere at this point.

[lex]

It's not just working harder, its playing better. Clearly, the coaches feel that Engelberger is playing better...grading out better than Moss or Crowder. In any case, its not just rushing the passer, at SDE, you've got to be solid vs. the run. Moss is **** vs. the run. He can't gain anymore weight. He even said that. Engelberger isnt great vs. the run or good, or maybe not even average vs. the run, but he's ALOT better vs. the run and alot beefier than Moss. Moss at SDE is not even an issue. It can't work because he can't gain anymore weight. There was an article about it. How he tried and tried and couldn't gain anything. There's no way he can play there. Ever. It's always going to be him vs. Dumervil at WDE and he's not going to win that battle, either. Both of them suck vs. the run, but Dumervil is 10000000000000 times more proven as a pass rusher. That's a battle Jarvis is probably never going to win. I don't see how this is going to work for Jarvis in the forseeable future. I really dont.

Crowder, that's another story. He was brought in to be an Ekuban clone and man the SDE spot in the future, getting about six sacks a year but being solid vs. the run. He could still someday do that. He actually showed something last year. Crowder still could be the guy there, but I don't see how Moss can fit anywhere at this point.

Sorry but that doesnt pass the eyeball test. When Moss is in there, he has a better chance of gettig to the QB than Engelberger. And as has been pointed out, the difference between the two in the running game isnt significant enough to justify the amount of playing time Engelberger is getting.

[SoCalBronco]

Sorry but that doesnt pass the eyeball test. When Moss is in there, he has a better chance of gettig to the QB than Engelberger. And as has been pointed out, the difference between the two in the running game isnt significant enough to justify the amount of playing time Engelberger is getting.

If this were true, I have NO doubt that the coaches would put him in there. As between a journeyman and a young first rounder, any sort of relative tie in performance overall would go to the latter. But its apparently not even that close because Moss is not only not beating out Engelberger, he's not even active most of the time. Do you honestly think that Shanny wouldn't put Moss in there if he was even relatively close to Engelberger? The staff doesnt want to see Engelberger in there. They probably hate seeing him in there, but they dont have a choice if Moss cant perform. If they didn't hate him, they wouldn't have invested the top two picks in 2007 plus a third to move up to replace him. Trust me, they aren't trying to screw Moss over or playing favorites with Engelberger. I have no doubt that they would love to sit his ass down.

Again, I disagree with the proposition that there is a small difference between the two so far as run stopping goes. Moss is just flat out garbage in that area. He's a linebacker's weight. His frame and height causes him to ALMOST ALWAYS lose the leverage game against the OT. He can almost never get underneath the OT because of that. He'd be the worst candidate on the entire roster for SDE. That's not his spot. Again, its him vs. Dumervil. He's on the weakside since he's supposed to be a pass rusher only. I'm still not sure why we are having this conversation comparing him to Engelberger. That's not his spot. It just isnt. His skill set doesn't fit that spot. That's the spot Crowder should be winning. You don't have 245, 250 pounders at SDE.

Riddle me this, lex. Why is it that Shanny is now talking about LB with this guy? How bad can he be doing that we have to start talking about LB? I would submit that its alot worse than you are theorizing that he is doing. I mean, this kinda reminds me of those old days when Shanny started talking about Deltha at WR. :) It's gotta be pretty bad, dude. It's gotta be pretty damn bad.

[Br0nc0Buster]

It's not just working harder, its playing better. Clearly, the coaches feel that Engelberger is playing better...grading out better than Moss or Crowder. In any case, its not just rushing the passer, at SDE, you've got to be solid vs. the run. Moss is **** vs. the run. He can't gain anymore weight. He even said that. Engelberger isnt great vs. the run or good, or maybe not even average vs. the run, but he's ALOT better vs. the run and alot beefier than Moss. Moss at SDE is not even an issue. It can't work because he can't gain anymore weight. There was an article about it. How he tried and tried and couldn't gain anything. There's no way he can play there. Ever. It's always going to be him vs. Dumervil at WDE and he's not going to win that battle, either. Both of them suck vs. the run, but Dumervil is 10000000000000 times more proven as a pass rusher. That's a battle Jarvis is probably never going to win. I don't see how this is going to work for Jarvis in the forseeable future. I really dont.

Crowder, that's another story. He was brought in to be an Ekuban clone and man the SDE spot in the future, getting about six sacks a year but being solid vs. the run. He could still someday do that. He actually showed something last year. Crowder still could be the guy there, but I don't see how Moss can fit anywhere at this point.

I cant believe I am defending the Jarvin, but do you know for sure how bad Moss would be against the run compared to Engleberger?

With Engleberger in Larry Johnson STILL ran for like 200 yards
MJD STILL ran for 125

Of course it would be silly to blame Engleberger for that, but the point is it is not like with Engleberger we are completely shutting down the run.
And if the only thing we care about is stopping the run with our LDE then why not puta DT tackle at LDE? Its not like our pass rush would be any worse with a 300 lb tackle than with Engleberger

I remember last year people were raving about Moss and how supposedly he was better against the run than what everyone anticipated.

Our defense is not good, our Dline is trash.
I dont see how our defense can really get THAT much worse if we were to take out Engleberger and put in the Jarvin or Crowder

[lex]

If this were true, I have NO doubt that the coaches would put him in there. As between a journeyman and a young first rounder, any sort of relative tie in performance overall would go to the latter. But its apparently not even that close because Moss is not only not beating out Engelberger, he's not even active most of the time. Do you honestly think that Shanny wouldn't put Moss in there if he was even relatively close to Engelberger? The staff doesnt want to see Engelberger in there. They probably hate seeing him in there, but they dont have a choice if Moss cant perform.

Again, I disagree with the proposition that there is a small difference between the two so far as run stopping goes. Moss is just flat out garbage in that area. He's a linebacker's weight. His frame and height causes him to ALMOST ALWAYS lose the leverage game against the OT. He can almost never get underneath the OT because of that. He'd be the worst candidate on the entire roster for SDE. That's not his spot. Again, its him vs. Dumervil. He's on the weakside since he's supposed to be a pass rusher only. I'm still not sure why we are having this conversation comparing him to Engelberger. That's not his spot. It just isnt. His skill set doesn't fit that spot. That's the spot Crowder should be winning. You don't have 245, 250 pounders at SDE.

Riddle me this, lex. Why is it that Shanny is now talking about LB with this guy? How bad can he be doing that we have to start talking about LB? I would submit that its alot worse than you are theorizing that he is doing. I mean, this kinda reminds me of those old days when Shanny started talking about Deltha at WR. :) It's gotta be pretty bad, dude. It's gotta be pretty damn bad.

Yes. Because I think Shanahan is stubborn. And like I said, when I watch the games, I see Moss getting closer to the QB than Engelberger has done while playing the vast majority of the plays this year.

Regarding your question about playing him at LB, theres probably an element of concern over his weight. But again, even as someone who is undersized he has accomplished more at DE than Engelberger has in very limited action in comparison.

[DBroncos4life]

SoCal how do you see Moss fitting into a 3-4? Do you feel he can do it? IMO I think it almost would help him.

[SoCalBronco]

Yes. Because I think Shanahan is stubborn. And like I said, when I watch the games, I see Moss getting closer to the QB than Engelberger has done while playing the vast majority of the plays this year.

Regarding your question about playing him at LB, theres probably an element of concern over his weight. But again, even as someone who is undersized he has accomplished more at DE than Engelberger has in very limited action in comparison.

What is it that Moss has accomplished at DE for this team?

Moss has accomplished 2 tackles one of them for a loss and no sacks.

Engelberger has accomplished 15 tackles, two of them for losses, one sack and also a forced fumble.

Engelberger still is not even an average DE, he's well below average despite being a hard worker. He's limited in many ways, but he has accomplished alot more than Moss. It's one thing if Moss is in the rotation, but he has not even garnered enough confidence to be consistently on the active gameday roster.

Again, I don't think its proper to compare him to Engelberger because they are at different positions.

It's still early in his career, but he has been a colossal failure so far. Colossal. Which is sad, because I saw some real talent from him in his first training camp. He looked like he could be something real nice, but then it all went to hell after he got hurt.

[Atwater His Ass]

Yes. Because I think Shanahan is stubborn. And like I said, when I watch the games, I see Moss getting closer to the QB than Engelberger has done while playing the vast majority of the plays this year.

Awesome. It's gotten so bad here that we are arguing for guys that are "getting closer" to the QB, i.e., not making any sort of play what so ever while the opposing teams QB sits back in the pocket for 7 seconds, maybe taking a sidestep or two.

[SoCalBronco]

SoCal how do you see Moss fitting into a 3-4? Do you feel he can do it? IMO I think it almost would help him.

First of all, I want to say that I dislike the 3-4 for Denver. We are a 4-3 team. Our best players in our front are 4-3 players. Robertson came to us to get away from the 3-4. Thomas is a 4-3 penetrating DT. DJ is exclusively a 4-3 WLB. That's his position. He's playing at a Pro Bowl level because he is in the position that was made for him. Not 3-4 ILB where he has to fight off an uncovered guard. Webster has played in the 4-3 virtually his whole career.

I don't mind it as a changeup to throw the offense off. If we use it 15% of the time, I'm not going to bitch about it, but we are essentially a 4-3 team.

Can Moss be a 3-4 OLB? I dont know. Certainly, he would have an easier time rushing the passer from that spot going up against a back than against the OT. In coverage, he would probably be raped. I don't know if he has the short area quickness to dropback and play curl to flat coverage. Would you trust Moss one on one in pass coverage against a running back? I wouldn't. Do you think he could make an open field tackle against a skill positon player? Probably not. He could probably do a good job from the pass rushing aspect in the 3-4, but that's about it.

[lex]

What is it that Moss has accomplished at DE for this team?

Moss has accomplished 2 tackles one of them for a loss and no sacks.

Engelberger has accomplished 15 tackles, two of them for losses, one sack and also a forced fumble.

Engelberger still is not even an average DE, he's well below average despite being a hard worker. He's limited in many ways, but he has accomplished alot more than Moss. It's one thing if Moss is in the rotation, but he has not even garnered enough confidence to be consistently on the active gameday roster.

Again, I don't think its proper to compare him to Engelberger because they are at different positions.

It's still early in his career, but he has been a colossal failure so far. Colossal. Which is sad, because I saw some real talent from him in his first training camp. He looked like he could be something real nice, but then it all went to hell after he got hurt.

Engelberger has played like 90% of the plays this year. Moss has barely been on the field. Engelberger has been relatively non-existent for 2 years. He sucks. In very limited minutes Moss can actually accomplish more than what Engelberger had done for several games. And Engelberger keeps playing. Thats whats sad. I dont care how much Moss weighs. If he is better at getting to the QB, we need to see more of him and less of Engelberger. Im not saying Moss is going to set the world on fire but he has accomplished more with live bullets than what weve been seeing from Engelberger. I realize its fun to say things like "garbage> absolute garbage" and also spell colossal in all caps but thats not really something that concerns me. Id just lie there to be some justification for playing Engelberger that relates to what has been seen on the field. And he hasnt really done anything to justify being out there.

[lex]

Awesome. It's gotten so bad here that we are arguing for guys that are "getting closer" to the QB, i.e., not making any sort of play what so ever while the opposing teams QB sits back in the pocket for 7 seconds, maybe taking a sidestep or two.

Well we can thank Slowiks scheming for some of that. I mean, when you give 10 yard cushions, why would you do anything other than a three yard drop and hit the open guy?

[SoCalBronco]

Engelberger has played like 90% of the plays this year. Moss has barely been on the field. Engelberger has been relatively non-existent for 2 years. He sucks. In very limited minutes Moss can actually accomplish more than what Engelberger had done for several games. And Engelberger keeps playing. Thats whats sad. I dont care how much Moss weighs. If he is better at getting to the QB, we need to see more of him and less of Engelberger. Im not saying Moss is going to set the world on fire but he has accomplished more with live bullets than what weve been seeing from Engelberger. I realize its fun to say things like "garbage> absolute garbage" and also spell colossal in all caps but thats not really something that concerns me. Id just lie there to be some justification for playing Engelberger that relates to what has been seen on the field. And he hasnt really done anything to justify being out there.

Well.....to be fair, I didn't spell colossal in all caps. :)

In any case, you noted that you dont care how much Moss weighs and if he's better at getting to the QB he should be there ahead of Engelberger. But that's totally contrary to the scheme. Shanny has said since the preseason that this year we are putting an emphasis on stopping the run FIRST. Everythign else is secondary to that. Now, we have failed at that too....its just that we've failed at it less than in pass coverage. If that's the emphasis, then Engelberger definitely should be there ahead of Moss. Especially since its on the strongside where Moss's height (from a leverage standpoint) and lack of bulk can be used against him since there is an extra blocker and that is generally the beefier side of opposing OLs. You are right...it is fun to say garbage > absolute garbage....but I really do think that applies here....at least it largely does. IMO.

[lex]

Well.....to be fair, I didn't spell colossal in all caps. :)

In any case, you noted that you dont care how much Moss weighs and if he's better at getting to the QB he should be there ahead of Engelberger. But that's totally contrary to the scheme. Shanny has said since the preseason that this year we are putting an emphasis on stopping the run FIRST. Everythign else is secondary to that. Now, we have failed at that too....its just that we've failed at it less than in pass coverage. If that's the emphasis, then Engelberger definitely should be there ahead of Moss. Especially since its on the strongside where Moss's height (from a leverage standpoint) and lack of bulk can be used against him since there is an extra blocker and that is generally the beefier side of opposing OLs. You are right...it is fun to say garbage > absolute garbage....but I really do think that applies here....at least it largely does. IMO.

Yeah, I think Engelberger played the vast majority of the snaps against Kansas City...not to mention last year. Lets not try to pretend playing Engelberger has been an approach to stopping the run that has been effective. LOL. We were around 30th in the league last year with Engelberger (and Gold) and this year weve been getting gashed as well. Again, I really dont see the justification for insisting that he play over Moss.

[kappys]

[QUOTE=SoCalBronco;2124418]
I'm still not sure why we are having this conversation comparing him to Engelberger. That's not his spot. It just isnt. His skill set doesn't fit that spot. That's the spot Crowder should be winning. You don't have 245, 250 pounders at SDE.

QUOTE]

There it is in a nutshell. WTF happened to Crowder? He is the one that needs to man up and claim the LDE spot, or at least beat out Engleberger. I would be happy with him backing up Ekuban but if Ekuban is health Crowder is sitting out. It is pathetic.

[Atwater His Ass]

Well we can thank Slowiks scheming for some of that. I mean, when you give 10 yard cushions, why would you do anything other than a three yard drop and hit the open guy?

Except for the part where oppossing teams QB are just sitting in the pocket, waiting for guys to find the holes in our zone. It's not like they're taking a 3 step drop and quick releasing a pass. Our DL has an opportunity on almost every pass play to get some heat or a sack, they just suck.

[Popps]

You always know when Ekuban is in the game, because he's making plays... unlike Engleberger. But, the guy just can't stay healthy. His injury issues are the reason JE has a starting job in the first place.

[kappys]

You always know when Ekuban is in the game, because he's making plays... unlike Engleberger. But, the guy just can't stay healthy. His injury issues are the reason JE has a starting job in the first place.

I've been impressed with Ekuban when he plays - he instantly upgrades the LDE spot to average. Its too bad he's not able to get out there more often.

[2KBack]

Except for the part where oppossing teams QB are just sitting in the pocket, waiting for guys to find the holes in our zone. It's not like they're taking a 3 step drop and quick releasing a pass. Our DL has an opportunity on almost every pass play to get some heat or a sack, they just suck.

I've been watching for this spectifically. The vast majority of pass plays given up are 1-3 step drop quick passes designed to take advantage of the space the CB's give. Yes sometimes the QB has too much time in the pocket, but it actually isn't the common trend. More often the QB's first option is open, and there is little time for any sort of rush to be effective.

The Rush could always be better, but it is nowhere near as bad as some are saying. The holes pass defense are just so wide that an offense cn hit them without worrying about a pass rush.