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View Full Version : The Big "Bad" Bear is at again


elsid13
10-06-2008, 08:33 AM
Looks like Putin is at it again and wants the Crimera. The gas pipeline is part of the deal to get a pro-Russia PM elected.


Putin: Ukraine gave military aid to Georgia in war with Russia
The Russian prime minister called Ukraine's involvement a 'crime,' but still agrees to a gas contract with Kiev.
By Arthur Bright
posted October 03, 2008 at 10:20 am EDT
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1003/p99s01-duts.html
E-mail Print Letter to the Editor Republish del.icio.us digg

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin charged Ukraine with supplying arms and manpower to Georgia during its recent war with Russia, and said if Ukraine's involvement was proven, it would be a "crime."

Russian news and information agency RIA Novosti reports that Mr. Putin made the accusation Thursday during a meeting with Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko to sign a new contract on Russian natural gas exports to Ukraine.

"I don't think there is a graver crime than supplying arms to a conflict zone," Putin told his Ukrainian counterpart, Yulia Tymoshenko, during their meeting at the Russian premier's residence near Moscow.

He also said that he regretted "that Ukraine thought it acceptable to supply weapons to the conflict zone."

Putin also said Moscow had evidence proving that Ukrainian military experts were present in the conflict zone during the five-day war that began when Georgian forces attacked breakaway South Ossetia.

The BBC writes that Ms. Tymoshenko said she was confident that Ukraine's involvement in the war in Georgia would not be confirmed. The BBC adds that Putin's accusation "amounted to an attack on [Tymoshenko's] political rival, [Ukrainian] President Viktor Yushchenko," who sets Ukraine's defense policy.

Reuters reports that despite Putin's accusation, he and Tymoshenko agreed to a new deal to gradually increase Ukraine's payments for Russian gas over the next three years. Kiev, which has been paying Russia roughly $180 per 1,000 cubic meters of gas, had been concerned that Russia would require it to immediately start paying market prices, which are more than $500 per 1,000 cubic meters.

The Times of London reports that the Kiev-Moscow talks come amid a power struggle in Ukraine between Tymoshenko and Mr. Yuschenko. The two came to power during Ukraine's 2004 "Orange Revolution," but the government, a coalition of their two parties, has been wracked by infighting ever since. The Times writes that just before the talks, Tymoshenko accused Yuschenko of commandeering her plane to stymie her negotiations with Putin, highlighting one of the key disputes between the two: Ukraine's relationship with Russia.

Since Russia has in the past used gas supply as an instrument of policy against neighbouring states, the talks are being watched closely by the whole of the Ukrainian political class. The key question is whether Ms. Tymoshenko will give too much ground to the Kremlin. President and Prime Minister are at loggerheads over Mr. Yushchenko's openly critical view of Moscow's intervention in Georgia. In August he told the Times that the war was a compelling reason for accepting Ukrainian membership of Nato. Ms. Tymoshenko on the other hand has voiced almost no criticism of the Kremlin about the Georgian crisis.

This prompted accusations from presidential advisers that Ms. Tymoshenko was soft-peddling on Russia in order to win Russian cash and government support for her bid to supplant Mr. Yushchenko as president. Elections have to be held before 2010 and jostling for position has already begun. The Secret Service has been asked to investigate whether the prime minister had acted "to damage the country's national interests." Last month the President said Ms. Tymoshenko's actions were "aimed at destabilising the situation" and were tantamount to treason.

Russia's influence in Ukraine is not limited to diplomacy. The Chicago Tribune reports that Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula is home to a large ethnic Russian population and a major Russian naval base. Although Crimea's regional government is not separatist, like those in Georgia's South Ossetia and Abkhazia regions, there are concerns in Ukraine that Russia could use a similar excuse to invade Crimea as it did in Georgia.

"There is indeed a parallel situation here in Crimea," says Sergei Kulik, director of Nomos, an independent think tank in Sevastopol. "Many people in Crimea have both Russian and Ukrainian passports, which makes it possible to one day declare that the rights of Russian citizens have been violated and must be defended. That would bring us to the same situation we saw in Georgia."...

Sevastopol has been home to Russia's Black Sea Fleet since 1783. In 1997, Ukraine agreed to lease the port to the fleet until 2017, when the agreement would be up for renewal. Angered by Russia's actions in Georgia, Ukrainian leaders no longer want to renew the fleet's lease after 2017.

If the Black Sea Fleet is forced to leave Sevastopol, said Leonid Grach, a Communist Party member of Crimea's autonomous parliament, "then Crimea will explode. It'll become Kosovo, or Abkhazia, or South Ossetia. ... We won't have enough cemeteries to bury all the dead people."

Eviction from Sevastopol would force the Kremlin to spend tens of billions of dollars to make the Russian Black Sea port of Novorossiysk fit for naval ships, destroyers and submarines. The fleet's presence in Sevastopol also serves as an invaluable vanguard of influence in Ukraine that Russia would find hard to replace.

But one of Russia's concerns about Ukraine looks to be allayed, at least for the time being. Although Yushchenko has campaigned for Ukraine's membership in NATO, The Wall Street Journal reports German Chancellor Angela Merkel announced Thursday that Germany would not support giving a membership "road map" to Ukraine or to Georgia this year.

Mrs. Merkel's rejection of a NATO track for Georgia and Ukraine, at a news conference with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in St. Petersburg, would effectively act as a veto. The Western military alliance operates by consensus.

U.S. officials had hoped a NATO ministerial meeting set for December might be the occasion for the alliance to extend a so-called Membership Action Plan, or MAP, to the two ex-Soviet States. However, any quick move toward their NATO membership grew less likely after Georgia's five-day war with Russia in August.

The U.S. State Department declined to comment, saying it hadn't seen or heard Mrs. Merkel's remarks.

Meck77
10-06-2008, 08:40 AM
Russia is always trying to figure out a way to take Ukraine back. Nothing new.

Hell they tried to kill Yuvshenko before the last election yet Russia is pointing the finger about meddling in other countries affairs? Please.

Rohirrim
10-06-2008, 09:44 AM
"I don't think there is a graver crime than supplying arms to a conflict zone," Putin told his Ukrainian counterpart, Yulia Tymoshenko, during their meeting at the Russian premier's residence near Moscow.

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. Putin has reached the pinnacle of hypocrisy with that line. And all those dead babies in Darfur with AK47 bullet wounds know the truth.

cutthemdown
10-06-2008, 09:58 AM
No way Russians give back Sevestopol if they can help. That's one of the Soviets errr I mean Russians most important ports.

The Russians errr I mean soviets will do whatever it takes to keep it including starting a war. It's the real reason they don't want any missile defense going up. They plan on attacking if they have to and don't want to deal with it.

cutthemdown
10-06-2008, 10:01 AM
"I don't think there is a graver crime than supplying arms to a conflict zone," Putin told his Ukrainian counterpart, Yulia Tymoshenko, during their meeting at the Russian premier's residence near Moscow.

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. Putin has reached the pinnacle of hypocrisy with that line. And all those dead babies in Darfur with AK47 bullet wounds know the truth.

Considering it was widely reported that Serbia was using Russian laser guided bomb jamming equipment when NATO took them on. Or that Hezbollah recently used Russian missiles to fight Israel. I sure hope Obama if elected deals with Russia and doesn't go Jimmy Carter on us. The last time we had a weak President the Soviets errrrr I mean Russians, errrr I mean Soviets ran roughshod over Afghanistan.

snowspot66
10-06-2008, 10:10 AM
And look what happened to them. Then we went roughshod all over Iraq. I'm sensing the beginnings of a trend here.

kappys
10-06-2008, 10:39 AM
"I don't think there is a graver crime than supplying arms to a conflict zone," Putin told his Ukrainian counterpart, Yulia Tymoshenko, during their meeting at the Russian premier's residence near Moscow.

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. Putin has reached the pinnacle of hypocrisy with that line. And all those dead babies in Darfur with AK47 bullet wounds know the truth.

Not to mention those dead babies in East Timor. Oh, wait a second.

Rohirrim
10-06-2008, 10:43 AM
Not to mention those dead babies in East Timor. Oh, wait a second.

Another Putin apologist? You should be ashamed of yourself. Putin is a murdering thug.

kappys
10-06-2008, 11:58 AM
Another Putin apologist? You should be ashamed of yourself. Putin is a murdering thug.

I in no way endorse Putin's tactics. Merely pointing out their similarity to our own and the hypocrisy of calling for him to behave appropriately when we reject doing so for our own leaders.

Or you could take the George H. Bush approach when he said (paraphrased) - "I will never apoligze for the United States of America, I don't care about the facts."

Rohirrim
10-06-2008, 12:10 PM
As bad as Bush and Cheney are, I doubt that either of them have personally sent out thugs to murder journalists or political opponents. Putin has. On numerous occasions. The idea that he would make that statement is beyond ludicrous. Of course, there are those (like Gaffney) who believe everything he says.

alkemical
10-06-2008, 12:26 PM
"I don't think there is a graver crime than supplying arms to a conflict zone," Putin told his Ukrainian counterpart, Yulia Tymoshenko, during their meeting at the Russian premier's residence near Moscow.

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. Putin has reached the pinnacle of hypocrisy with that line. And all those dead babies in Darfur with AK47 bullet wounds know the truth.

Ro~

The greatest punchline is in which the irony is delivered with a straight face....

gunns
10-06-2008, 02:19 PM
Can Sarah see all this from her island?

Rohirrim
10-06-2008, 02:30 PM
Can Sarah see all this from her island?

On a clear day. ;D

Paladin
10-06-2008, 02:33 PM
As bad as Bush and Cheney are, I doubt that either of them have personally sent out thugs to murder journalists or political opponents. Putin has. On numerous occasions. The idea that he would make that statement is beyond ludicrous. Of course, there are those (like Gaffney) who believe everything he says.


Valerie Wilson doesn't count?

cutthemdown
10-06-2008, 04:18 PM
Bush isn't to blame for being like Putin. He's to blame for being foolish enough to think Putin isn't evil. Hopefully Obama will be smart enough to understand Putin fooled Bush, don't let him fool you.

If Obama is weak on the military Putin will for sure take whatever he wants.

kappys
10-06-2008, 04:41 PM
As bad as Bush and Cheney are, I doubt that either of them have personally sent out thugs to murder journalists or political opponents. Putin has. On numerous occasions. The idea that he would make that statement is beyond ludicrous. Of course, there are those (like Gaffney) who believe everything he says.

Why is that inherently worse than massacerring tens of thousands of people?

Anyways if the press remained properly self-censored in Russia like it does in the US he wouldn't have had to worry about knowcking off a few journalists.

Rohirrim
10-06-2008, 04:54 PM
Why is that inherently worse than massacerring tens of thousands of people?

Anyways if the press remained properly self-censored in Russia like it does in the US he wouldn't have had to worry about knowcking off a few journalists.

I'm sure you meant to put a little smilie for sarcasm on that one.

kappys
10-06-2008, 05:48 PM
:oyvey: I'm sure you meant to put a little smilie for sarcasm on that one.

Did I forget to do thattsk tsk

alkemical
10-07-2008, 05:59 AM
Why is that inherently worse than massacerring tens of thousands of people?

Anyways if the press remained properly self-censored in Russia like it does in the US he wouldn't have had to worry about knowcking off a few journalists.

The LAT story by Nita Lelyveld and Steve Hymon, which ran Sunday, was more news report than obituary, since Webb had just been found dead—of two gunshot wounds to the head, it turns out, but authorities sound confident it was suicide. (http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2004/12/reaction_on_gar.php)

Garcia Bronco
10-07-2008, 06:55 AM
Suicide with two gun shots to the head. Impressive

kappys
10-07-2008, 07:31 AM
If at first you don't suceed...