Your the GM how do you fix the D?

[azbroncfan]

What scheme do you run and how do you fix the lack of talent issues?

First thing I do is Fire Slowik and the rest of the defensive coaches especially Burney and Johnson. I think part of the issue other than talent is too much coordinator exchanging but the defense can only go up from where it's at and has shown nothing positive under the Bates/Slowik ran defenses. Then I would try and steal R. Rivera off of SD and install a COVER 2 system. I think it is the easiest system to draft players and fit them in. I personally like a Lebeau style 3-4 but I think that it will take way too much roster flushing.

Safeties I would can Mcree and Manuel and only keep Lowry and Barrett. I would draft 2 here and let them battle out for a starting position. I would probably look in FA for a veteran S such as M. Brown, B. Dawkins, or Sharper. They could provide some veteran leadership and you probably could buy a couple years out of them at a high level like the Lynch signing a couple years ago.

CB I would draft 2 new corners and sign a good bargain Vet to team up with Bly and Bailey. Bly probably only has a year left on the team after this year. Nickle CB is a huge concern and I believe two of the nine picks need to be used here.

LB's I think a 2nd or third round pick needs to be used on a legit talent here. No need to blow the bank for a Rey Rey or the OSU MLB but pick one up in the 2nd round. Webster/Niko one of them needs to be cut after training camp.

DE I would start with Elvis, Moss, Engelberger and Crowder. The rest can hit the streets. Draft another DE and trade/sign a decent DE that won't break the bank. Engelberger is not a starter and was only brought back for his goalline/special teams depth, but under no circumstances will he be a starter. Use at least one draft pick here for a DE that fits the scheme.

DT I would only keep Peterson, Thomas, and Robertson. I would consider taking a look at a M. Tubbs type of FA that has some experience in the system and consider taking a DT on day one of the draft.

Whatever happens I personally believe that there are 5 new starters and new coaching is needed next year and I don't think the defense will be good with that many changes. I think the cover 2 is a system that can be installed and a quicker turnaround can happen. Drafting DL can be easier just like the Colts do and you notice that they never really sign FA's just draft players and play them so they develope. When they are up for FA they walk unless they are a superstar. Most of the money Denver spends will be keeping the offense in place and the defense only needs to be in the middle of the pack.

New starters DE, MLB, SS, FS, and nickle DB.

Discuss what you would do.

[cmhargrove]

Ed Reed?

[cmhargrove]

Re-sign Trevor Pryce, Reggie Hayward, Bertrand Berry, and Larry Coyer?

[cmhargrove]

Is this a multiple choice thread?

[Jekyll15Hyde]

Is time an issue?

[Ratboy]

Great thread.

Post coming soon.

[telluride]

There's nothing we can do to fix it for this season. Sadly. So count this as a lost season except for the joy of watching the offense.

But yes, at season's end do much of what you suggest. But be even more realistic and aggressive:

-Fire the entire defensive coaching staff.
-Target a smart young defensive coach whose philosophy is not based on gimmicks or schemes or nonsense, but on solid, basic, aggressive, fundamental, proven defensive concepts.
-Commit to this coach (in your mind, if not on paper) for at least five years.
-In an orderly but swift fashion, say goodbye to almost every defensive player on the roster, with these exceptions: this year's rookies; DJ; Marcus.
-In orderly fashion, work favorable deals for Champ and Elvis. This rebuild will not be completed quickly enough to allow the aging Champ or the soon-to-be-overpriced Elvis to contribute.
-Draft defense, defense, defense. And don't let Shanny anywhere near the draft board.
-Draft best player available, not position.
-Stop drafting undersized players. Get bigger, everywhere.
-Stop drafting "potential." Start drafting players.
-Reconcile the fact that next season will be a rebuild season on defense as well, and don't count on playoffs or Super Bowl. The goal will be to get the #32 ranked defense into #16 territory.

Do all this, and we can have a SB quality team in 2010. One that can compete at SB level for 4-5 years.

[SureShot]

A series of punches to the throat.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/17/88738790_066d3a60e4.jpg?v=0

[listopencil]

DT, MLB, Safety. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[PRBronco]

You're all forgetting an important step after firing Slowik:
-interview a minority candidate!

[2KBack]

You're all forgetting an important step after firing Slowik:
-interview a minority candidate!

Marvin Lewis should be available pretty soon

[Ratboy]

Fire Slowik (is there any other option?). I would stick with the 4-3 too. I would go outside of the Broncos Organization to sign a Defense Coordinator with an attitude. I want someone that will knock sense into these players.

Safeties: This is a huge priority. I don't see Manuel or Mcree being starters for long. This was a patch fix, and we need to get some young studs back there. Taylor Mays would be an excellent option.


CB: I would only go for 1 cornerback in the draft, maybe sign someone in Free Agency. Bryant McFadden as a nickle?


LB: I would draft Rey Maualuga or James Laurinaitis if possible. Channing Crowder (MIA) could be an option as well.


DE: Trade Dumervil. Sign Julius Peppers, and hit the draft.


DT: Thomas and Robertson are decent tackles. Our main problem with the line is the Defensive Ends. We could still make a splash in FA or the Draft buy getting a DT. Marcus Tubbs would be a valuable addition too.

[Dudeskey]

You're all forgetting an important step after firing Slowik:
-interview a minority candidate!

You just made me think of an excellent candidate: Ron Rivera... Only problem is I don't think the Bolts would let us talk to him...™

[oubronco]

I would fire Burney Imediately and hire a BADASSS BEEEATCH !!!

I'm not exactly who but someone with knowledge to develop these young D-linemen and who has a scheme that works for these guy's

we have to remember these guy's are young and we knew going in they needed more time to develop and we all wanted them to get experience and as much as I would like them to be DOMINANT NOW it's not gonna happen

[Spider]

I would move Champ Bailey to D.E. , Put Moss at corner , Resign Griese to be MLB , Move Bly to quarter back , trade Cutler for Randy Moss , then I would make Marshall a Free Safety ........ May not work , but what the hell ;D

[Florida_Bronco]

I'd start by making serious changes to the defensive coaches. Might keep Bill Johnson, but not sure.

- Draft another prospect at DT. We have Robertson, Thomas and Powell, but we don't know how long Robertson will last and even if Powell pans out we'll need depth.

- Draft a badass MLB. Relegate Webster and Niko to backup and special teams.

- Draft another CB. He can be a development project since we still have Paymah and Williams backing up our starters.

- Draft a safety, maybe two.

[watermock]

Hire Boise State's DC. The secondary is playing bump and glue!

[broncosteven]

I think we should look for Slowic's replacement while he is still here, then fire him over the phone and refuse to let him in Dove Valley.

Then Shanny should write a long rambling letter while he loses control of his bowels and has his blood replaced with that of 13 year old virgin girls.

Shanny should then go to a cave in afghanistan and record himself reading said letter in front of one of those magnifying reading lamps. Loud Flatulence will be edited out before tape is aired.

Then Shanny should hire the 1st assistant that they find a personell folder for and Shanny can be recorded on air asking for said folder because he knows nothing of signifigance about random promoted assistant.

Then Shanny should mutter something about being able to "Win with this team"

[nickademus]

I am not sure that a 3-4 couldnt be put in here it would just require an all new d-line. I think that the Channing Crowder will be available in the off season as the fins are switching to the 3-4 and he doesnt really fit in that role sort of like johnathan vilma in NY. I figure there will be a solid pro MLB available this off-season. I also believe that if we do not do everything in our power to sign Peppers we are retarded. But lets say Peppers is no go I think a guy like Marcus Spears from dallas would be a good adition as he is a beast against the run. So we add at least one DE who can play the run better than anyone we currently have. The last major hole I see on this team is @ FS and SS if we are looking at a cover two type D we need to have the correct Safetys to do it. I dont really think we are going to find exactly what we are looking for on the FA market in this respect. So I think we are looking at least one Rookie starting and I agree that manual and mcree need to be cut. If we can find a SS FA and then draft a round one FS we might be ok. I also think we need to spend at least two high picks on the line. so if we went FS, MLB, DE, DT, CB, SS, ILB, OG, C with our nine picks in that order I would be happy this draft is deep at a few of our areas of need just not DT otherwise I would move that to a higher priority on our board. two of the players I mentioned earlier were not FA so I am not sure we will have all of our picks but this would be a good start. I am convinced that there will be at least 4 possibly 5 new starters on D next season. but the biggest change had better be the entire staff.

[Killericon]

Short-term Plan(For the rest of this season):

Defensive Line: Trade(Maybe a 5th?) for a defensive end of some kind. Preferably not Leonard Little, but I doubt we'd be able to get anyone even remotely close to him in terms of skill.

Linebackers: Trade for Bobby Carpenter(Shouldn't take much to get him...), see if he can start in the middle.

Secondary: Sign Mike Doss, start Lowry ASAP. Sign Fernando Bryant. In nickel packages, have him and Bailey on the outside and Bly on the inside.

Long-term Plan(Offseason):

Defensive Line: Draft a Defensive End in Round 1, then draft a Defensive Tackle in Round 2. Cut everyone except Moss, Dumervil, Robertson, Crowder, Thomas and Engelberger/Whoever we traded for, if he's better.

Linebackers: Convert WW3 to MLB. Draft 2 Linebackers in Rounds 4-7. Keep Boss, Winborn, Carpenter, WW3, and D.J. and sign a veteran for the middle.

Secondary: Cut McCree and Manuel. Throw as much FA money as keeping Brandon, Elvis and the gang will allow at the best FA safety out there. Draft another one. Keep Lowry(Did anyone see him play last year? Solid player, guys). Keep the CBs as they are(Bailey, Bly, Bryant, Williams, Paymah)

DC: Rod Marinelli. Throw bags of money at the guy. Get rid of most of the existing staff, and let Marinelli bring in some of his own guys...Find a GREAT defensive line coach.

[mattob14]

We all know a change in the staff is needed, so I'll skip straight to personnel (assuming we stay with a 4-3, there's just too much turnover needed for a 3-4).

To start, move Dumerville for a pick, I'd be happy with a 2nd or 3rd. Moss won't carry any value and we can't rely on two pass-rushing specialists.

FA:
Sign a solid, veteran DT. Tubbs has been mentioned and would be a solid choice. We don't need a superstar, but a solid rotation player who can provide insurance for Robertson. Maybe take a chance on a veteran Safety if the price is right. Mike Brown comes to mind as risk-reward type of S signing.

Draft:
This needs to be the heart of our efforts. MLB should be the focus, I'd take Brandon Spikes if I had my choice. S should be addressed early as well, I'd rather see players like William Moore or Patrick Chung than athletes like Taylor Mays. Chung would be a great choice late on day 1 or early day 2. Assuming trading Dumerville would net us 4 picks in the top 3 rounds, I'd also like to position ourselves to add a DE as well. There are a ton of talented juniors and if even 4 or 5 of them come out, we should have a shot at a solid, every-down DE in the 2nd. Through the remainder of the draft, I'd look to add a DT prospect and possibly another Safety as well.

The one other area that could really benefit the D is an improved running game. To that end, I'd look for a solid interior line prospect who has the strength to make an impact in the running game.

It's a lot of change and I don't think we'd see drastic improvement in 2009, but the foundation would be there for a 2010 championship run, hopefully.

[Lolad]

1st fire the entire Defensive Coaching staff.

Bring in a proven defensive minded coach with all the staff that he ask for.

DE: to keep Moss, Crowder, Doom

DT: to keep Marcus Thomas

SS/FS: to keep Barrett, Lowry

CB: Trade champ and a 3rd round pick for a stud DT Haynesworth, trade bly for a 3rd/4th round pick, trade Paymah for a 7th round pick.. if we don't get a trade wave him. Keep JMFW

LB: to keep DJ, Boss, Koutividies (restructure his contract to reflect him only playing on ST) Woodyard, Winborn, Larsen

Draft: Best available Defensive players in the 1st 4 rounds. I would definitely look at big CB's or Tweener type LB's to fill the SS/FS position. I want a head hunter with speed that can cover the opposing teams slot receiver if need be.

Pickup Mammoth DT's and DE's. No tweeners!
Draft ILB that has size and a mean streak.

[BroncoBen]

>>1st fire the entire Defensive Coaching staff.

>>Bring in a proven defensive minded coach with all the staff that he ask for.

Such as ??

>>DE's to keep Moss, Crowder, Doom
>>DT's to keep Marcus Thomas
>>SS/FS to keep Barrett, Lowry

Okay.. agreed

>>CB's to keep Trade champ and a 3rd round pick for a stud DT >>Haynesworth, trade bly for a 3rd/4th round pick, trade Paymah for a 7th >>round pick.. if we don't get a trade wave him.

You had me onboard until the 'Trade' talk of Champ Bailey.

>>Keep JMFW LB's to keep DJ, Boss, Koutividies (restructure his contract to >>reflect him only playing on ST) Webster (will ONLY play ST) Woodyard, >>Winborn Larsen

Not so sure about keeping Koutividies.

>>Draft Best available Defensive players in the 1st 4 rounds. I would >>definitely look at big CB's or Tweener type LB's to fill the SS/FS position. I >>want a head hunter with speed that can cover the opposing teams slot >receiver if need be.

Agree with the best Defensive players call... but don't like converting a Tweener LB to SS/FS.. doesn't work. Just draft the best SS/FS availible.


>>Pickup Mammoth DT's and DE's. No tweeners!
>>Draft ILB that has size and a mean streak.

Easier said then done.. but yes, draft some size.. this has been a big problem with the Broncos undersized defensive linemen.

>I say we convert to a 3-4 defense that uses aggressive blitz packages and >disguises who's coming in on every play.

Why not.. this is a copycat league, the 3-4 seems to be working for teams.

[Eldorado]

BB. Your making too much sense. Please go away.

Thanks.

[Rock Chalk]

First, I don't fire Slowik. Besides the fact that the defensive players like Slowik, the problems on the front seven are not his fault, they are systemic from the guy coaching up the D-line.

The first thing I do is aggressively pursue a defensive line coach who knows how to coach DEs and DTs in a 4-3. We do not have the correct personnel to run a 3-4 so we scrap that idea immediately. Once I find my new D-line coach I give the axe to Burney who has proven through his declining results for the past 7 years that he does not belong on any sideline anywhere.

Once I get my new D-line coach I relegate myself to the fact that we cannot salvage this season's defensive play so I let the younger players play more to get more experience. By season's end they are well adjusted to the new philosophy the new defensive line coach has brought and everyone is familiar with Slowik's scheme overall.

During the offseason, I do look to FA for possible candidates to fill the DE position. Of course, we fit into the scheme of not overpaying or reaching but if a Julius Peppers comes along, we do our best to get him provided there is not lingering injury issues said DE may or may not have. I focus the ENTIRE draft on the defense, with heavy focus on acquiring a real MLB bad ass to replace Al Wilson. I look for someone who has excellent play recognition ability. Athleticness and speed are secondary at this specific position.

I look for a safety with coverage skills and secondary run support skills. This safety also must be intelligent.

I look for possible gems in the draft on the d-line but I do not reach on any player as coaching I believe up front, has been our problem for a LONG time. We may not have gotten any superstars over the last 7 years but we damn sure should have gotten SOMETHING out of all the crap we have recycled through our system in that time span.

I also look to trade Dumervil and package him with a lower draft pick or future draft pick to move up in the draft to get one of the top notch MLBs coming out next year.

I let coaching and cohesion do the rest. Firing Slowik after 3 games is not teh answer. He may not be the answer, but its obvious that it does not matter who we have as the DC if Burney is still around, we will continue to suck.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Fire Mike Shanahan.

[2KBack]

I like Alec's.

Unfortunately The D-line coach seems almost untouchable. I mean how many years now have they looked poor?

[Eldorado]

Fire Mike Shanahan.

You wish, turd. Enjoy Herm.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

You wish, turd. Enjoy Herm.

Shanahan has no clue on defense. It's been four years and he still hasn't found a way to stop Larry Johnson. You'd think in four years a good NFL coach could find a way to stop a player.

[DHallblows]

That's so cute, you only have one player to mention over and over again as being good...

[Florida_Bronco]

That's so cute, you only have one player to mention over and over again as being good...

Responding to his nonsense only encourages it.

[azbroncfan]

Shanahan has no clue on defense. It's been four years and he still hasn't found a way to stop Larry Johnson. You'd think in four years a good NFL coach could find a way to stop a player.

Well he does have a .500 record against Diaper Boy.

[DHallblows]

Responding to his nonsense only encourages it.

It's like watching a monkey try to use a gun. Sure he shouldn't be doing it and it could hurt those around him, but I'll be damned if it doesn't at least hold my interest.

[Vegas_Bronco]

persuit and tackle drills all season long just so when game day comes...they know how to do 2 things really well.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Well he does have a .500 record against Diaper Boy.

Au contraire, my little donkey. Mike Shanahan lost in 2004 against LJ, lost in 2005 against LJ, split in 2006 against LJ, and now he lost again against LJ in 2008. That would make Mikey Shanahan a mere 1-4 against Larry "I **** UP MIKE SHANAHAN'S DEFENSES" Johnson.

:strong:

Larry Johnson: The Mike Shanahan KILLER.

[azbroncfan]

Au contraire, my little donkey. Mike Shanahan lost in 2004 against LJ, lost in 2005 against LJ, split in 2006 against LJ, and now he lost again against LJ in 2008. That would make Mikey Shanahan a mere 1-4 against Larry "I **** UP MIKE SHANAHAN'S DEFENSES" Johnson.

:strong:

Larry Johnson: The Mike Shanahan KILLER.


Well however you spin the stats but you need to say the games that Diaper Boy started. Diaper Boy wouldn't of made a difference last year and you are forgetting the monday night game in 2005 where Diaper Boy put it on the ground inside KC's 10 giving Denver an easy score.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Well however you spin the stats but you need to say the games that Diaper Boy started. Diaper Boy wouldn't of made a difference last year and you are forgetting the monday night game in 2005 where Diaper Boy put it on the ground inside KC's 10 giving Denver an easy score.

He didn't start that game.

When Larry Johnson starts, he rips Mike Shanahan a new butthole. It feels great, I have to tell you.

[azbroncfan]

He didn't start that game.

When Larry Johnson starts, he rips Mike Shanahan a new butthole. It feels great, I have to tell you.

Go figure you would spin the stats.

[Florida_Bronco]

I see Bobo is on a quest for validation again tonight.

[FireFly]

Bring back John!

...the other one that is

[Doggcow]

I'd drop 10 and have Elvis Dumervil try and bullrush the passer every time.

[fontaine]

1. Forget about drafting a legit safety. Wait till the draft is over to sign the next big thing ala Browner, Barrett and then pick up journeymen scrubs like Abdullah, McCree, that guy we signed from the Raiders, Lowry etc.

2. At LB, keep switching DJ, Webster, Bailey around to different positions as we've been doing that last two years.

3. And finally, draft another project DE like we've been doing ala Moss, Clint Mitchell, and bask in his potential. Trade for another over the hill has been like Jimmy Kennedy, Sam Adams and scour the waiver wire for completely unknown DTs like Nic Clemons, Shaw (Maybe we can bring back Myers!).

Finally, sit back and watch our defense get crappier every season, as our best players like Champ/DJ get older and closer to the end just as Wilson/Lynch did.

After all, it's what the GM/FO has done the last five/six years now so what makes anyone think they'll change now?

[Ratboy]

I like Alec's posts, but Slowik has shown his system does not work any where. It's not just our players, it's him.

We need to hire a proven defensive coach and roll with it. I wish we could have someone like Rex Ryan or Dick Lebeau.

[boltaneer]

I'm not so sure if Denver could get a good and proven DC to come there next year with the way Shanahan has been scapegoating them year in and year out, kind of like what Al Davis has been doing to his head coaches.

I think you'd have to get someone from the NCAA who is looking to jump up to the NFL. Or some borderline washed up DC who is looking to get a job.

A couple of people mentioned Ron Rivera. It's strange how he was such a hot head coaching candidate a couple of years ago but now has completely disappeared off of everyone's radar. But I do think that the Chargers are eyeing him to take over for Ted Cottrell at some point, especially if he doesn't get his head out of his ass and use the talent he has on defense.

[DeusExManning]

Marvin Lewis should be available pretty soon

It is obvious after several DC's that this does not work, it is an issue of talent.

[bronco_diesel]

There are, in my opinion, two major problems with the defense.

1. Lack of talent. This is essentially because of misses in the draft and the free agency band-aid approach for several years.

2. The revolving door at DC.

For this defense to improve, there needs to be stability. The drafting is proving to be improved, especially on the offensive side. The picks on the defense are still question marks.

I’d place an emphasis on drafting defensively over the next two drafts – adding beef up front and a legit MLB. If you can shore up the front seven, everything else will be improved as well. I’d only sign a free agent if it were a sure thing at a fairly descent price.

I would not fire Slowick – I realize that is the popular thing here, but would be idiotic as the constant change in DC and any philosophy are stunting the growth of the individual players as well as the defense. I give him time and the tools to be successful. He has neither on his side right now.

I'd consider hiring a guy who has a penchant for creative blitz packages - who might provide Slow some options for getting some pressure on the quarterbacks as the defense is in transition.

[DelBronco]

The most frustrating thing is that when we say "address the defense through the draft" we have to remember that we have done that, especially in the front four and it hasn't done us any good to this point. I realize they're young, but the people scouting and selecting the prospects in this year's draft are the same ones that took Moss, Crowder, etc. Doesn't exactly breed confidence in me.

I wish we'd play Moss more in different roles (DE in our base D, some OLB in the gimmicky 3-4 look) if for no other reason than to show other teams in the league that he's healthy and somewhat competent. Then trade him to a 3-4 team for whatever picks we can get.

[joe9999]

There are, in my opinion, two major problems with the defense.

1. Lack of talent. This is essentially because of misses in the draft and the free agency band-aid approach for several years.

2. The revolving door at DC.

For this defense to improve, there needs to be stability. The drafting is proving to be improved, especially on the offensive side. The picks on the defense are still question marks.

I’d place an emphasis on drafting defensively over the next two drafts – adding beef up front and a legit MLB. If you can shore up the front seven, everything else will be improved as well. I’d only sign a free agent if it were a sure thing at a fairly descent price.

I would not fire Slowick – I realize that is the popular thing here, but would be idiotic as the constant change in DC and any philosophy are stunting the growth of the individual players as well as the defense. I give him time and the tools to be successful. He has neither on his side right now.

I'd consider hiring a guy who has a penchant for creative blitz packages - who might provide Slow some options for getting some pressure on the quarterbacks as the defense is in transition.

I bascially agree with this approach. It is logical and consistent compared to other wild ideas being floated around such as fire this coach or that coach, change the skeam etc. In the end, the players on the field decide the game as long as thery are playing together with passion and there aren`t off the field distractions, aka Oakland, Cinncinati, etc.

I wouldn`t go so far as to say the draft two years from now, but definately in the next draft they have to use there first three picks on defense, a big middle line backer, defensive line and safety. In the later round they can take a wide receiver or running back. They should also try and get one impact defensive player through free agency.

[joe9999]

The most frustrating thing is that when we say "address the defense through the draft" we have to remember that we have done that, especially in the front four and it hasn't done us any good to this point. I realize they're young, but the people scouting and selecting the prospects in this year's draft are the same ones that took Moss, Crowder, etc. Doesn't exactly breed confidence in me.

I wish we'd play Moss more in different roles (DE in our base D, some OLB in the gimmicky 3-4 look) if for no other reason than to show other teams in the league that he's healthy and somewhat competent. Then trade him to a 3-4 team for whatever picks we can get.

Bates had a big role in those picks an he is of coarse gone.

[Beantown Bronco]

The most frustrating thing is that when we say "address the defense through the draft" we have to remember that we have done that, especially in the front four and it hasn't done us any good to this point. I realize they're young, but the people scouting and selecting the prospects in this year's draft are the same ones that took Moss, Crowder, etc. Doesn't exactly breed confidence in me.

At least some of the same folks that scouted and selected George Foster also scouted and selected Ryan Clady. Just because you may have failed in the past doesn't mean you shouldn't keep going back to the well. For the past few days all we've done is show the examples of teams like the Eagles who have missed on DL picks, but stuck with it and were rewarded. It can happen to Denver.

What would you propose? Never drafting DLinemen again?

[Beantown Bronco]

There's nothing we can do to fix it for this season. Sadly. So count this as a lost season except for the joy of watching the offense.

I disagree. It is possible for players and units to improve throughout a season. Just look at everyone's favorite defense in 2007....the New York Giants. After the first two weeks last year, their defense had given up a combined 80 points! They were even worse at the beginning of last year than Denver's has been so far this year. They also gave up over 30 pts on five different occasions last year.

Now obviously I agree that defense needs to be a focus both in the draft and FA this offseason, but let's not already chalk up this season as a complete loss. They can improve as a unit without blowing the whole thing up.

[telluride]

I disagree. It is possible for players and units to improve throughout a season. Just look at everyone's favorite defense in 2007....the New York Giants. After the first two weeks last year, their defense had given up a combined 80 points! They were even worse at the beginning of last year than Denver's has been so far this year. They also gave up over 30 pts on five different occasions last year.

Now obviously I agree that defense needs to be a focus both in the draft and FA this offseason, but let's not already chalk up this season as a complete loss. They can improve as a unit without blowing the whole thing up.

The major flaw in your argument:

NY had talented players who were simply playing poorly. We have untalented players who are playing poorly. One scenario allows for an in-season improvement; the other does not. (And don't get me started on the huge talent difference between NY's defensive coaches and Denvers'.)

[bjeffrey]

I'll back the ideas of Alec and Bronco_diesel. We have to have some continuity at DC or we'll get nowhere. As I suggested in a thread last week, I believe we need to bring in a threat at DE through free agency. Just can't wait to groom an existing guy. The D in general is talent poor, but it could be improved immediately by the presence of 1 guy that the opposing QB has to sweat on every play....DE or MLB.

[Beantown Bronco]

The major flaw in your argument:

NY had talented players who were simply playing poorly. We have untalented players who are playing poorly. One scenario allows for an in-season improvement; the other does not. (And don't get me started on the huge talent difference between NY's defensive coaches and Denvers'.)

Not entirely true. Justin Tuck was a nobody until last season. Many would have called him untalented. Nobody is saying that now.

And look at DJ last year. Clueless at MLB early on. Yet by the end of the year, he was diagnosing plays better and ended up 2nd in the league in tackles. Players, especially young ones, can look like garbage early on in the season and can make an improvement in just a few short months. That's all I'm saying. If one or two of these young guys on the DLine make the same kind of improvement DJ made last year, this defense as a whole could be improved enough to make a run this year.

[dlow187]

Here is a list of free agent after this season:
Nnamdi Asomugha, Albert Haynseworth, Julius Peppers, Roy Williams, Brandon Jacobs, Brian Dawkins, Jonathan Vilma, Mike Peterson, Ricky Williams, Lee Evans, Amani Toomer, Darren Sproles, Jeff Garcia, Marc Columbo, Mark Tauscher, Tra Thomas. Karlos Dansby, Ray Lewis, Tank Johnson, Bart Scott, Chris Gamble, Dawan Landry, Terrell Suggs, and Eric Barton.

1a. I would restructure Koutouvides, Champ, Graham
1b. Trade D. Jackson (He has the 8th highest cap hit this year)
2. Travis Henry, Matt Lepsis, Ian Gold, Alvin McKinley & i dont know who else, wont count against our cap after this season so we should have some room for people ON the team.
3. I think we should trade Bly & bring in Nnamdi Asomugha.
4. Trade Elvis & bring in Peppers
5. MOS DEF bring in Haynesworth, throw the bank @ him
6. Bring in Jonathan Vilma or Mike Peterson @ Mlb
7. Bring in Dawkins
8. Bring in Brandon Jacobs (Depends on how Ryan Torrain does).



Now with the picks we would get for Elvis, Bly, & Jackson, plus the ones we already have stockpiled. We could pretty much draft whoever we wanted

[Beantown Bronco]

Here is a list of free agent after this season:
Nnamdi Asomugha, Albert Haynseworth, Julius Peppers, Roy Williams, Brandon Jacobs, Brian Dawkins, Jonathan Vilma, Mike Peterson, Ricky Williams, Lee Evans, Amani Toomer, Darren Sproles, Jeff Garcia, Marc Columbo, Mark Tauscher, Tra Thomas. Karlos Dansby, Ray Lewis, Tank Johnson, Bart Scott, Chris Gamble, Dawan Landry, Terrell Suggs, and Eric Barton.

1a. I would restructure Koutouvides, Champ, Graham
1b. Trade D. Jackson (He has the 8th highest cap hit this year)
2. Travis Henry, Matt Lepsis, Ian Gold, Alvin McKinley & i dont know who else, wont count against our cap after this season so we should have some room for people ON the team.
3. I think we should trade Bly & bring in Nnamdi Asomugha.
4. Trade Elvis & bring in Peppers
5. MOS DEF bring in Haynesworth, throw the bank @ him
6. Bring in Jonathan Vilma or Mike Peterson @ Mlb
7. Bring in Dawkins
8. Bring in Brandon Jacobs (Depends on how Ryan Torrain does).



Now with the picks we would get for Elvis, Bly, & Jackson, plus the ones we already have stockpiled. We could pretty much draft whoever we wanted

Where to begin.....yikes.

D Jackson can't be traded. He's on a one year contract and will be a FA himself.

Where do you propose we get the money to sign the most expensive CB (Assmunch) DLineman (Haynesworth) and DE (Peppers) on the market? All while resigning our own and absorbing huge cap hits from your trades? Pipe dream.

Nobody will give us anything for Bly unless he REALLY lights it up in the next few months. His value right now is one late rounder at best.

Put down the bong and unplug Madden. Maybe one or two things above could happen in one offseason. Nowhere near all of them, however.

[Lolad]

Here is a list of free agent after this season:
Nnamdi Asomugha, Albert Haynseworth, Julius Peppers, Roy Williams, Brandon Jacobs, Brian Dawkins, Jonathan Vilma, Mike Peterson, Ricky Williams, Lee Evans, Amani Toomer, Darren Sproles, Jeff Garcia, Marc Columbo, Mark Tauscher, Tra Thomas. Karlos Dansby, Ray Lewis, Tank Johnson, Bart Scott, Chris Gamble, Dawan Landry, Terrell Suggs, and Eric Barton.

1a. I would restructure Koutouvides, Champ, Graham
1b. Trade D. Jackson (He has the 8th highest cap hit this year)
2. Travis Henry, Matt Lepsis, Ian Gold, Alvin McKinley & i dont know who else, wont count against our cap after this season so we should have some room for people ON the team.
3. I think we should trade Bly & bring in Nnamdi Asomugha.
4. Trade Elvis & bring in Peppers
5. MOS DEF bring in Haynesworth, throw the bank @ him
6. Bring in Jonathan Vilma or Mike Peterson @ Mlb
7. Bring in Dawkins
8. Bring in Brandon Jacobs (Depends on how Ryan Torrain does).



Now with the picks we would get for Elvis, Bly, & Jackson, plus the ones we already have stockpiled. We could pretty much draft whoever we wanted

I'm not sure if Champ will take less money. I do agree with Koutividies and Graham. D-Jack is on a 1 year contract so his cap number isn't going to effect anything this offseason.

You're throwing money at the secondary again as well as trying to bring 2 high cap number players Peppers and Haynesworth. I'm not sure we will have money left to pickup any rookies

[oubronco]

shoot 90% of them probably won't even hit the market

[broncosteven]

Why is it so popular around here to trade the only sack threat we have?

Doom should only be in for pass rushing downs, not starting. That doesn't mean he is expendable.

We have a ton of picks next draft, hold tight try to win this year but do not sacrifice next years draft to win 1-2 more games.

[Beantown Bronco]

Why is it so popular around here to trade the only sack threat we have?

Not that I'm in favor of it.....but to play Devil's advocate, John freakin' Engelberger has more sacks this season than Elvis.

[broncosteven]

Not that I'm in favor of it.....but to play Devil's advocate, John freakin' Engelberger has more sacks this season than Elvis.

From what I can see on TV he is trying to speed rush around the LT and is getting pushed out of the play. Having a bigger body beating on the LT and bringing Doom in on 3rd or 2nd and long should help. He is not going to wear any LT down.

[TailgateNut]

Performance based pay!

[Lolad]

From what I can see on TV he is trying to speed rush around the LT and is getting pushed out of the play. Having a bigger body beating on the LT and bringing Doom in on 3rd or 2nd and long should help. He is not going to wear any LT down.

The film room has caught up with Doom. All Tackles play him the same way. He needs an inside move. I don't think we should trade him.. but he shouldn't be starting either. When negotiating his contract, it needs to reflect that he is not an every down player. If he doesn't like that then trade him.

[Breaker]

Staple a $50,000 check to the opposing qbs chest and tell the D-line whoever gets there first gets the money. We might actually see a pass rush

[telluride]

There seems to be a lack of reality in this thread. We're are in a very bad place with this defense, and extricating ourselves from this bad place will require more than just a few tweaks. Let's review the reality:

We have a defense that, last season, grew worse every single week. We have a defense that four weeks into this season has grown worse every single week. This defense just allowed the worst team in the league to score 33 points on it.

It seems probable that because of this defense we're going to lose 3 of the next 4 games, and lose them badly. At some point soon, our exceptional offense is going to realize that the defense is simply unable to keep them in most games, and at that point the pressures and personalities will begin to tear this team apart.

I mentioned upthread that the Bates hire effectively killed this team for three years. Had Shanny done what was necessary at the end of last season -- fire Bates and the entire defensive staff and hire a competent young replacement -- we could have begun to restock and retrain the defense, aiming for a competitive defense for 2009/10. But we did exactly the wrong thing by elevating Slowik and retaining the staff that failed so miserably last year. Thus the three-year-long death knell is extended by yet another year.

We have to start over with the defense. Fire the staff. Cull the middling players. Trade the aging talent. And do what we've done on offense: get younger, get bigger, get better.

[PRBronco]

I remember thinking it was a good sign that Champ was so big on Slowik, any idea why he liked him so much?

[Stormontheplains]

I vote for thomas to dend, go with robertson, peterson on the inside and wwIII to come in on 3rd down and rush the passer with webster taking a seat and if all else fails go to a cover 2 and run champ at safety, he would be good for 8 picks playing centerfield, and can tackle.

[Odysseus]

You should replace the entire defensive field with scarecrows including the coaching staff. Save your money rather than believe this group of empthy jerseys is going to do anything this season.

We should hire a private investigator to find out whose really showing up on Sundays. These can't be professional football players.

We should put our best players on IR because we don't want to get stinky rotting corpse defense on their brains.

It should replace these guys with an unemployed company of ballerinas. I don't think the orange flowery costumes would throw off anybody.

There are no miracles....it's just going to suck on defense....yet again.

[Killericon]

There seems to be a lack of reality in this thread. We're are in a very bad place with this defense, and extricating ourselves from this bad place will require more than just a few tweaks. Let's review the reality:

We have a defense that, last season, grew worse every single week. We have a defense that four weeks into this season has grown worse every single week. This defense just allowed the worst team in the league to score 33 points on it.

It seems probable that because of this defense we're going to lose 3 of the next 4 games, and lose them badly. At some point soon, our exceptional offense is going to realize that the defense is simply unable to keep them in most games, and at that point the pressures and personalities will begin to tear this team apart.

I mentioned upthread that the Bates hire effectively killed this team for three years. Had Shanny done what was necessary at the end of last season -- fire Bates and the entire defensive staff and hire a competent young replacement -- we could have begun to restock and retrain the defense, aiming for a competitive defense for 2009/10. But we did exactly the wrong thing by elevating Slowik and retaining the staff that failed so miserably last year. Thus the three-year-long death knell is extended by yet another year.

We have to start over with the defense. Fire the staff. Cull the middling players. Trade the aging talent. And do what we've done on offense: get younger, get bigger, get better.

What a ridiculous thing to pull out of your ass.

[Odysseus]

....not that I am bitter or anything....:)

[telluride]

What a ridiculous thing to pull out of your ass.

I don't mean to overstate things or predict apocalypse, but don't you recall how nasty everything got toward the end of last season, when the defense had imploded? Even Champ was teeing off on people.

As competitive as Jay and BMarsh and a few others are, if you don't think that seeing their effort/work squandered each week by a crappy defense won't create some locker room conflict, you're being naive.

[rovolution]

First, I don't fire Slowik. Besides the fact that the defensive players like Slowik, the problems on the front seven are not his fault, they are systemic from the guy coaching up the D-line.

The first thing I do is aggressively pursue a defensive line coach who knows how to coach DEs and DTs in a 4-3. We do not have the correct personnel to run a 3-4 so we scrap that idea immediately. Once I find my new D-line coach I give the axe to Burney who has proven through his declining results for the past 7 years that he does not belong on any sideline anywhere.

Once I get my new D-line coach I relegate myself to the fact that we cannot salvage this season's defensive play so I let the younger players play more to get more experience. By season's end they are well adjusted to the new philosophy the new defensive line coach has brought and everyone is familiar with Slowik's scheme overall.

During the offseason, I do look to FA for possible candidates to fill the DE position. Of course, we fit into the scheme of not overpaying or reaching but if a Julius Peppers comes along, we do our best to get him provided there is not lingering injury issues said DE may or may not have. I focus the ENTIRE draft on the defense, with heavy focus on acquiring a real MLB bad ass to replace Al Wilson. I look for someone who has excellent play recognition ability. Athleticness and speed are secondary at this specific position.

I look for a safety with coverage skills and secondary run support skills. This safety also must be intelligent.

I look for possible gems in the draft on the d-line but I do not reach on any player as coaching I believe up front, has been our problem for a LONG time. We may not have gotten any superstars over the last 7 years but we damn sure should have gotten SOMETHING out of all the crap we have recycled through our system in that time span.

I also look to trade Dumervil and package him with a lower draft pick or future draft pick to move up in the draft to get one of the top notch MLBs coming out next year.

I let coaching and cohesion do the rest. Firing Slowik after 3 games is not teh answer. He may not be the answer, but its obvious that it does not matter who we have as the DC if Burney is still around, we will continue to suck.

Agree with all of this.


Changing DCs after the season is not going to solve anything. What we need is a talent infusion, and in the short term, there are no solutions except Robertson maintaining his health. (unless there is a trade for a proven vet which i do not see happening b/c the coaching staff seems like they really want to allow Jarvis and Tim to get valuable PT and develop).

1st Round MLB, then get a DE or DT, then a safety with coverage abilities. hopefully Josh Barrett will learn something in his PS year and be able to step up and contribute next season.

[azbroncfan]

John freakin' Engelberger has more sacks this season than Elvis.

Which really wasn't a sack it was a coverage sack that was a race to the LOS by Rivers and JE and JE happened to get him down on the ground 2 inches behind the LOS.

[Killericon]

I don't mean to overstate things or predict apocalypse, but don't you recall how nasty everything got toward the end of last season, when the defense had imploded? Even Champ was teeing off on people.

As competitive as Jay and BMarsh and a few others are, if you don't think that seeing their effort/work squandered each week by a crappy defense won't create some locker room conflict, you're being naive.

There's a difference between a team having friction in the locker room and a team being torn apart.

[oubronco]

fire Burney Now !!!!!!

[Rock Chalk]

Which really wasn't a sack it was a coverage sack that was a race to the LOS by Rivers and JE and JE happened to get him down on the ground 2 inches behind the LOS.

How many coverage sacks does Dumervil have?

Oh thats right, none. He cant even get a coverage sack this year.

[oubronco]

How many coverage sacks does Dumervil have?

Oh thats right, none. He cant even get a coverage sack this year.

:rofl:

[Beantown Bronco]

I remember thinking it was a good sign that Champ was so big on Slowik, any idea why he liked him so much?

Check out Slowik's bio on denverbroncos.com. He is great when he works solely with DBs and Champ has had his best years under him. It is when he is put in charge of entire units that he is still unproven.

[gyldenlove]

I move Slowick back to DB coach, I fire Burney and Johnson and I make an aggressive pitch for the DC from OSU (Tim Heacock) and let him pick his DL coach.

I start Koutouvides at MLB and the new guy from Tennessee isntead of Manuel.

I replace Dumervil and Engelberger with Crowder and Ekuban in the starting line and use Dumervil and Moss in passing situations. We need to get bigger at the end position.

In the draft I go for Patrick Chung and Beckwith at in the first 2 rounds of the draft. I try to add a big DT in round 3 or 4 and a corner in round 5.

I would try to trade for or sign a bigger DE in the offseason, not a top guy like Peppers but more of a service guy like Kenechi Udeze (assuming he is over his cancer).

My overall priority would be to add size to the DE position, cover skills to the S position and a runsstopping MLB. That way we should be able to play our CBs more aggressive and not move a S down too often.

One last change I would make would be to play Woodyard at the SS position right now in running situations, he could play the short area and have the guy from the Titans deep in coverage. That way we get extra run stopping up front and better coverage down the back.

[Rock Chalk]

I move Slowick back to DB coach, I fire Burney and Johnson and I make an aggressive pitch for the DC from OSU (Tim Heacock) and let him pick his DL coach.

I start Koutouvides at MLB and the new guy from Tennessee isntead of Manuel.

I replace Dumervil and Engelberger with Crowder and Ekuban in the starting line and use Dumervil and Moss in passing situations. We need to get bigger at the end position.

In the draft I go for Patrick Chung and Beckwith at in the first 2 rounds of the draft. I try to add a big DT in round 3 or 4 and a corner in round 5.

I would try to trade for or sign a bigger DE in the offseason, not a top guy like Peppers but more of a service guy like Kenechi Udeze (assuming he is over his cancer).

My overall priority would be to add size to the DE position, cover skills to the S position and a runsstopping MLB. That way we should be able to play our CBs more aggressive and not move a S down too often.

One last change I would make would be to play Woodyard at the SS position right now in running situations, he could play the short area and have the guy from the Titans deep in coverage. That way we get extra run stopping up front and better coverage down the back.

We have plenty of serviceable guys. We need TOP guys. Thats our problem.

[azbroncfan]

How many coverage sacks does Dumervil have?

Oh thats right, none. He cant even get a coverage sack this year.

I wouldn't even call it a coverage sack it was a race to the LOS and Rivers is f#$KING slow that he couldn't even get to LOS. A guy with 4.8 speed would of picked of 5 yards. Dumervil gets his sacks in bunches against crappy OT's so I'm not arguing for him but Engelberger's sack wasn't anything special and isn't a sack in my book.

[Jekyll15Hyde]

There's nothing we can do to fix it for this season. Sadly. So count this as a lost season except for the joy of watching the offense.

But yes, at season's end do much of what you suggest. But be even more realistic and aggressive:

-Fire the entire defensive coaching staff.
-Target a smart young defensive coach whose philosophy is not based on gimmicks or schemes or nonsense, but on solid, basic, aggressive, fundamental, proven defensive concepts.
-Commit to this coach (in your mind, if not on paper) for at least five years.
-In an orderly but swift fashion, say goodbye to almost every defensive player on the roster, with these exceptions: this year's rookies; DJ; Marcus.
-In orderly fashion, work favorable deals for Champ and Elvis. This rebuild will not be completed quickly enough to allow the aging Champ or the soon-to-be-overpriced Elvis to contribute.
-Draft defense, defense, defense. And don't let Shanny anywhere near the draft board.
-Draft best player available, not position.
-Stop drafting undersized players. Get bigger, everywhere.
-Stop drafting "potential." Start drafting players.
-Reconcile the fact that next season will be a rebuild season on defense as well, and don't count on playoffs or Super Bowl. The goal will be to get the #32 ranked defense into #16 territory.

Do all this, and we can have a SB quality team in 2010. One that can compete at SB level for 4-5 years.

Exactly... For once it would nice to be the D of bullies (like Dallas) instead of these really fast guys that rely on speed and most of the time end up over pursuing the play

[DelBronco]

At least some of the same folks that scouted and selected George Foster also scouted and selected Ryan Clady. Just because you may have failed in the past doesn't mean you shouldn't keep going back to the well. For the past few days all we've done is show the examples of teams like the Eagles who have missed on DL picks, but stuck with it and were rewarded. It can happen to Denver.

What would you propose? Never drafting DLinemen again?

Of course I'm not suggesting that we never draft DL again, just point out that at least until this point we've proven to be inept at doing so. My point is that some folks are saying to just invest in the DL early in the draft and that will solve the D. Unless something changes in the way our FO does that, I don't see it.

Edit: Out of curiosity, when we took Jarvis Moss I think it was said that there were 3 players we had targeted at our rd1 pick, Moss, Harrell, and a 3rd that I can't remember. Was it Timmons from FSU? Can anybody help me out?

[Peoples Champ]

Ed Reed?



I like this idea