I've Got an Idea

[Rohirrim]

If the U.S. government is intent on borrowing $700 billion to bail out the bankers on Wall Street PRIMARILY to reinvigorate the credit flow, it seems to me that you're just tossing the money into a hole. You don't know how that money is going to be used. You don't even know if it will be used. There's no guarantee that the banks won't react super-cautiously and just hold on to that money to protect their own assets (so to speak).

Why not take the $700 billion and immediately start holding an auction for infrastructure projects across the country? Imagine the impact? All of a sudden, from coast to coast, we have American companies and workers building highways, bridges, ports and repairing our entire infrastructure. That is very real, tangible wealth flowing through the entire economy. That will create thousands of good paying jobs and new spending. That will do more to stimulate credit and investment than pouring wealth into bankers' pockets. Plus, we all know that infrastructure investment always pays huge dividends. The evidence is overwhelming.

[TheDave]

1. we aren't giving money to the banks.

2. We are buying specific loans from these institutions at a discount.

3. The majority of the debt will be serviced by the existing home owners.

4. When values return we will sell said assets. (hopefully at a premium)

5. There are provisions in the bill now that place any shortfall back on the financial institutions.

6. Your plan does not deal with the real problem which is the clogging of the credit markets caused by these loans.

Now not saying your plan does not have merit, but lets at least be honest about the current idea.

[W*GS]

How 'bout we just spend $7,000 billion on Americans?

Each American gets ~$23,333!

Amazing!

[Rohirrim]

1. we aren't giving money to the banks.

2. We are buying specific loans from these institutions at a discount.

3. The majority of the debt will be serviced by the existing home owners.

4. When values return we will sell said assets. (hopefully at a premium)

5. There are provisions in the bill now that place any shortfall back on the financial institutions.

6. Your plan does not deal with the real problem which is the clogging of the credit markets caused by these loans.

Now not saying your plan does not have merit, but lets at least be honest about the current idea.

The problem I have with that is that the Constitutional authority to do that is iffy at best. I'm coming at it from the other angle. Give a massive jolt to the economy overall and those property values start rising. Choose the regions that are most heavily hit by the devaluation and start large projects there. Since the entire U.S. infrastructure is crumbling, I'm sure you wouldn't have to look too hard to find needed projects. So, the banks hold onto the properties themselves and the values get pumped up. Hell, you could even hire some of the home owners who need assistance. They work-to-buy and the money goes to pay their loans.

[elsid13]

If the U.S. government is intent on borrowing $700 billion to bail out the bankers on Wall Street PRIMARILY to reinvigorate the credit flow, it seems to me that you're just tossing the money into a hole. You don't know how that money is going to be used. You don't even know if it will be used. There's no guarantee that the banks won't react super-cautiously and just hold on to that money to protect their own assets (so to speak).

Why not take the $700 billion and immediately start holding an auction for infrastructure projects across the country? Imagine the impact? All of a sudden, from coast to coast, we have American companies and workers building highways, bridges, ports and repairing our entire infrastructure. That is very real, tangible wealth flowing through the entire economy. That will create thousands of good paying jobs and new spending. That will do more to stimulate credit and investment than pouring wealth into bankers' pockets. Plus, we all know that infrastructure investment always pays huge dividends. The evidence is overwhelming.

Where are the construction companies going to get the credit to get material, supplies, pay the work force and mobilize? Because it take time for the process to pay them. Depending on the size of the contract it might not be awarded for up to year plus.

[Rohirrim]

How 'bout we just spend $7,000 billion on Americans?

Each American gets ~$23,333!

Amazing!

You can really be a horses ass. If that's all you have to contribute, why do you even bother? Just to prove what an ass you are?

[W*GS]

Once we accept the notion of using the government to magically create money...

Why not $7,000 billion?

[TheDave]

How 'bout we just spend $7,000 billion on Americans?

Each American gets ~$23,333!

Amazing!

$7,000 billion = $7 Trillion


That's a little more than the current plan... But i'll take my 23K in 20's and 1's

[defenseman]

Just came out on Yahoo...news...the senate will vote on the bill wednesday. Has an additional tax cut in addition to FDIC limit increase to 250K...dman

[TheDave]

The problem I have with that is that the Constitutional authority to do that is iffy at best. I'm coming at it from the other angle. Give a massive jolt to the economy overall and those property values start rising. Choose the regions that are most heavily hit by the devaluation and start large projects there. Since the entire U.S. infrastructure is crumbling, I'm sure you wouldn't have to look too hard to find needed projects. So, the banks hold onto the properties themselves and the values get pumped up. Hell, you could even hire some of the home owners who need assistance. They work-to-buy and the money goes to pay their loans.

I don't disagree with your train of thought... This country needs to get involved with some bottom up economics. The problem is, it still does not address the the major issue as i understand it.

[TheDave]

Just came out on Yahoo...news...the senate will vote on the bill wednesday. Has an additional tax cut in addition to FDIC limit increase to 250K...dman


Dude...Help a brother out. Give us a link.

[cutthemdown]

You don't understand the plan Rho. No disrespect but the money is going to be used by the govt to by up assets. The oversight we need is making sure the govt doesn't pay to much for the assets, and that the banks don't get to little for them because these homes and loans in the end will be worth something.

Because of these toxic assets the banks aren't borrowing the money from the govt even though the rates are low. Worst the banks aren't loaning to each other because they don't trust the other banks books.

Until we can get the LIBOR rate down and get some liquidity in the market it's going to go into sectors that are otherwise healthy.

What we need is a realy leader to convince the American people its the smart move. No doubt Bush has lost all of his pull and respect with Americans so he is unable to do it.

[cutthemdown]

I think RHO is right about using money to put americans to work on infrastructure projects. What we can do is eliminate earmarks and use that money. We can put a moritorium on aid to all other countries and use that money.

Obviously we need to make sure banks can't just make stupid loans again by regulating the transperancy and debt swapping.

[elsid13]

I think RHO is right about using money to put americans to work on infrastructure projects. What we can do is eliminate earmarks and use that money. We can put a moritorium on aid to all other countries and use that money.

Obviously we need to make sure banks can't just make stupid loans again by regulating the transperancy and debt swapping.

You do realize that most earmarks are infrastructure projects like buildings and roads right?

[Rohirrim]

Where are the construction companies going to get the credit to get material, supplies, pay the work force and mobilize? Because it take time for the process to pay them. Depending on the size of the contract it might not be awarded for up to year plus.

We're saying we can provide immediate relief to the banks but we couldn't do the same thing for new construction?

[baja]

If the U.S. government is intent on borrowing $700 billion to bail out the bankers on Wall Street PRIMARILY to reinvigorate the credit flow, it seems to me that you're just tossing the money into a hole. You don't know how that money is going to be used. You don't even know if it will be used. There's no guarantee that the banks won't react super-cautiously and just hold on to that money to protect their own assets (so to speak).

Why not take the $700 billion and immediately start holding an auction for infrastructure projects across the country? Imagine the impact? All of a sudden, from coast to coast, we have American companies and workers building highways, bridges, ports and repairing our entire infrastructure. That is very real, tangible wealth flowing through the entire economy. That will create thousands of good paying jobs and new spending. That will do more to stimulate credit and investment than pouring wealth into bankers' pockets. Plus, we all know that infrastructure investment always pays huge dividends. The evidence is overwhelming.

What'da think this is Iraq?

[W*GS]

$7,000 billion = $7 Trillion

If $700 billion magically created out of nothing is good, then 10x that amount must be 10x as good, right?

That's a little more than the current plan... But i'll take my 23K in 20's and 1's

I'll take mine as 230 $100s, 30 $10s, and the rest in pennies.

[Rohirrim]

You don't understand the plan Rho. No disrespect but the money is going to be used by the govt to by up assets. The oversight we need is making sure the govt doesn't pay to much for the assets, and that the banks don't get to little for them because these homes and loans in the end will be worth something.

Because of these toxic assets the banks aren't borrowing the money from the govt even though the rates are low. Worst the banks aren't loaning to each other because they don't trust the other banks books.

Until we can get the LIBOR rate down and get some liquidity in the market it's going to go into sectors that are otherwise healthy.

What we need is a realy leader to convince the American people its the smart move. No doubt Bush has lost all of his pull and respect with Americans so he is unable to do it.

I find it really wrong that the government is going into the real estate business. There is no guarantee at all that the value of these properties will ever go up. Most of these sub-primes were directed at houses in bad neighborhoods, from what I understand. Just because the government picks up the deeds doesn't mean their value is going to rise.

[elsid13]

We're saying we can provide immediate relief to the banks but we couldn't do the same thing for new construction?

We not providing immediate "relief" to the banks, we are buying mortgages backed securities. It will take some time for that to happen, but once it formalized and the bill is passed the credit market tightness will relax the crisis will be avoided because the market has stabilized. Right now banks are not loaning monies because they are trying to protect themselves from unknown risk, which grinding the market to a halt. Lessen the risk will allow credit to flow.

Also there are laws on the books that govern federal acquisition to ensure competition and ensure we're getting what we're buying.

[W*GS]

I find it really wrong that the government is going into the real estate business. There is no guarantee at all that the value of these properties will ever go up. Most of these sub-primes were directed at houses in bad neighborhoods, from what I understand. Just because the government picks up the deeds doesn't mean their value is going to rise.

The gubmint has been in the real estate bidness since FDR, at least.

Only now you're seeing the problems with that policy... Sigh.

[Rohirrim]

We not providing immediate "relief" to the banks, we are buying mortgages backed securities. It will take some time for that to happen, but once it formalized and the bill is passed the credit market tightness will relax the crisis will be avoided because the market has stabilized. Right now banks are not loaning monies because they are trying to protect themselves from unknown risk, which grinding the market to a halt. Lessen the risk will allow credit to flow.

Also there are laws on the books that govern federal acquisition to ensure competition and ensure we're getting what we're buying.

So if the U.S. government buys up all the bad debt, that will force the banks to open the credit spigots? That's similar to us giving the oil companies the right to drill right along the coasts thinking that we get the oil they pump. The truth is the bail out is designed to encourage the banks to do something, but there is no compunction to make them do it. What if we buy up all the bad debt but the banks are still too timid about the dollar, oil, world markets, whatever, to open the spigots?

[TheDave]

So if the U.S. government buys up all the bad debt, that will force the banks to open the credit spigots? That's similar to us giving the oil companies the right to drill right along the coasts thinking that we get the oil they pump. The truth is the bail out is designed to encourage the banks to do something, but there is no compunction to make them do it. What if we buy up all the bad debt but the banks are still too timid about the dollar, oil, world markets, whatever, to open the spigots?


I think it is a fair assumption that banks and their shareholders want to earn money. Banks make money by lending money... With their balance sheets in disaray and the FDIC crawling up their ass it has become near impossible to do so.

Improve their balance sheets and raise FDIC limits... That combination will lead to additional liquidity. Their shareholders will demand performance.

I'm not saying this is magic and tomorrow everything will be fine. But it is the best idea i have heard and i believe it is the right thing to do.

[ak1971]

I think it is a fair assumption that banks and their shareholders want to earn money. Banks make money by lending money... With their balance sheets in disaray and the FDIC crawling up their ass it has become near impossible to do so.

Improve their balance sheets and raise FDIC limits... That combination will lead to additional liquidity. Their shareholders will demand performance.

I'm not saying this is magic and tomorrow everything will be fine. But it is the best idea i have heard and i believe it is the right thing to do.

What sucks about this whole mess is the small community banks..A lot of these banks had a lot of thier capital tied up in FNM/FRE preferreds, which were as good as gold. These small community banks havent wavered from there lending practices for the most part for years (yeah I know there are exceptions) Its kind of like dying of second hand smoke....3Q numbers a due soon so we are either going to see JPGoldmanChaseBankofAmerica buying up a lot of small banks or one hell of a lot of pressure on the FDIC

PS..I hate making money its un American :yayaya:

[alkemical]

How 'bout we just spend $7,000 billion on Americans?

Each American gets ~$23,333!

Amazing!

I could get back to 0 ;)

[alkemical]

If the U.S. government is intent on borrowing $700 billion to bail out the bankers on Wall Street PRIMARILY to reinvigorate the credit flow, it seems to me that you're just tossing the money into a hole. You don't know how that money is going to be used. You don't even know if it will be used. There's no guarantee that the banks won't react super-cautiously and just hold on to that money to protect their own assets (so to speak).

Why not take the $700 billion and immediately start holding an auction for infrastructure projects across the country? Imagine the impact? All of a sudden, from coast to coast, we have American companies and workers building highways, bridges, ports and repairing our entire infrastructure. That is very real, tangible wealth flowing through the entire economy. That will create thousands of good paying jobs and new spending. That will do more to stimulate credit and investment than pouring wealth into bankers' pockets. Plus, we all know that infrastructure investment always pays huge dividends. The evidence is overwhelming.


http://www.cnu.org/node/2388

CNU Names Top 10 "Freeways Without Futures": Revived Neighborhoods and Waterfronts Ahead
Seattle, Buffalo, Washington DC may be next to stimulate billions in urban reinvestment by tearing down unneeded elevated highways slicing through their hearts

CNU President and CEO John Norquist says that compared to the prospect of completely rebuilding aging freeways -– something that’s inevitable after 40 or 50 years -- highways-to-boulevards projects are real money savers. “There’s a whole generation of elevated highways in cities that are at the end of their design life. Instead of rebuilding them at enormous expense, cities have an opportunity to undo what proved to be major urban planning blunders,” said Norquist, Mayor of Milwaukee when it replaced the Park East Freeway with McKinley Boulevard in 2002. “The Federal Highway Fund just received a short-term bailout. The money that does exist can be invested much more efficiently in surface streets and transit. The development that results is walkable and close to jobs and city life. It helps residents keep a lot of money in their wallets that they’d otherwise spend driving.”

“Fifty years ago, when there was flight from cities, industrialized waterfronts seemed like a convenient place to run freeways,” Norquist said. “The result for the neighborhoods has been blight. Cities like San Francisco that have removed freeways and reclaimed waterfronts have turned them into magnets for people and investment.”

The CNU top 10 prospects for highway teardowns are:
1. Seattle, WA. – The Alaskan Way Viaduct
2. Bronx, NY – Sheridan Expressway
3. Buffalo, NY – The Skyway and Route 5
4. New Haven, CT – Route 34
5. New Orleans, LA – Claiborne Expressway
6. Syracuse, NY – Interstate 81
7. Louisville, KY – Interstate 64
8. Trenton, NJ– Route 29
9. Toronto, Ontario – Gardiner Expressway
10. Washington D.C. – 11th Street Bridges and the Southeast Freeway

[snowspot66]

Interesting and it makes complete sense. I hope they go that way with it. They are ugly as hell and can't be very safe once their effective lifespan wears down. I lived in Portland for a while and the ease of access and excellent public transit really made it a nice downtown area. It was relatively safe, clean, and had lots of shops and what not. Definately the best downtown area of any city I've been to.

[Odysseus]

I don't disagree with your train of thought... This country needs to get involved with some bottom up economics. The problem is, it still does not address the the major issue as i understand it.


I think your points are all solid but the bridge disaster in Minnesota should have been a warning sign.

I love Ro's idea of "insourcing" and reinvesting in America is smart but how do we get there from here is going to be a challenge.

Our biggest problem isn't ideas but real leadership.

[Rohirrim]

You don't understand the plan Rho. No disrespect but the money is going to be used by the govt to by up assets. The oversight we need is making sure the govt doesn't pay to much for the assets, and that the banks don't get to little for them because these homes and loans in the end will be worth something.

Because of these toxic assets the banks aren't borrowing the money from the govt even though the rates are low. Worst the banks aren't loaning to each other because they don't trust the other banks books.

Until we can get the LIBOR rate down and get some liquidity in the market it's going to go into sectors that are otherwise healthy.

What we need is a realy leader to convince the American people its the smart move. No doubt Bush has lost all of his pull and respect with Americans so he is unable to do it.

Any way you look at it, the government is pumping billions into the pockets of many of the crooks who are most responsible for this mess. In effect, what we are saying is, "Well, we've got this mafia running things and they screwed everything up through their uncontrollable greed, but at least they have a system already set up and if we pump a bunch of money into their system, things will start running again, just like we're used to."

I understand the plan. I'm just not buying into it. I'm in the Kucinich camp. What's the rush? Why can't we discuss this? Are there alternative routes to get to the same place? What are they? This has way too much of the feel of the Iraq War hysteria for me.

[TailgateNut]

You don't understand the plan Rho. No disrespect but the money is going to be used by the govt to by up assets. The oversight we need is making sure the govt doesn't pay to much for the assets, and that the banks don't get to little for them because these homes and loans in the end will be worth something.

Because of these toxic assets the banks aren't borrowing the money from the govt even though the rates are low. Worst the banks aren't loaning to each other because they don't trust the other banks books.

Until we can get the LIBOR rate down and get some liquidity in the market it's going to go into sectors that are otherwise healthy.

What we need is a realy leader to convince the American people its the smart move. No doubt Bush has lost all of his pull and respect with Americans so he is unable to do it.


Who's the "appraiser" of these "ASSETS" we are buying. If Paulson has any say-so, I want a second opinion.

[Rohirrim]

I think it is a fair assumption that banks and their shareholders want to earn money. Banks make money by lending money... With their balance sheets in disaray and the FDIC crawling up their ass it has become near impossible to do so.

Improve their balance sheets and raise FDIC limits... That combination will lead to additional liquidity. Their shareholders will demand performance.

I'm not saying this is magic and tomorrow everything will be fine. But it is the best idea i have heard and i believe it is the right thing to do.

This is a false liquidity. It's not based on any real outcome of production, investment or market forces. It's just an injection. We don't know now how many injections will be required. As far as I can tell, nobody is even talking about it. They're hoping that one, big one will be enough. There is no guarantee that it will be. I still say we are just propping up a house of cards with scotch tape. Building infrastructure is real. It's a boost to the economy based on real production, real jobs and real, economic results. Basically, what Washington wants to do right now is give Wall Street a sugar high. What I'm talking about is a square meal.

[alkemical]

This is a false liquidity. It's not based on any real outcome of production, investment or market forces. It's just an injection. We don't know now how many injections will be required. As far as I can tell, nobody is even talking about it. They're hoping that one, big one will be enough. There is no guarantee that it will be. I still say we are just propping up a house of cards with scotch tape. Building infrastructure is real. It's a boost to the economy based on real production, real jobs and real, economic results. Basically, what Washington wants to do right now is give Wall Street a sugar high. What I'm talking about is a square meal.

You know what i love... I love how everyone still focuses on "credit" but not the fact that there's not enough **** to backup all the "credit".

It's why "saving" is important to a debt based/consumption based econ, as well as having people spend.

But then, i hope this shows people how imaginary money is for the most part. It's all set on power of belief!!!!

[TheDave]

This is a false liquidity. It's not based on any real outcome of production, investment or market forces. It's just an injection. We don't know now how many injections will be required. As far as I can tell, nobody is even talking about it. They're hoping that one, big one will be enough. There is no guarantee that it will be. I still say we are just propping up a house of cards with scotch tape. Building infrastructure is real. It's a boost to the economy based on real production, real jobs and real, economic results. Basically, what Washington wants to do right now is give Wall Street a sugar high. What I'm talking about is a square meal.

But it does address the real issue that is the accounting and financial statements that all these banks are based on. I know it does not feel real or tangible, but that is what banks are - a series of financial statements. For everyone of these dead loans certian assets are underperforming which affects one part of their financials. Additionally, because of their involvement in FDIC and other government regulators for every non perfoming dollar on their books they have to hold additional monies to cover these potential losses. This makes every bad loan a double dip against their ability to do what banks do.

I'm not saying this is going to work perfect... but it is the right idea. Surgically remove these "Assets" and allow the financials to return to normal. We still have difficult times ahead of us. Difficult times that could be greately enhanced by your plan and others like it.

[TailgateNut]

But it does address the real issue that is the accounting and financial statements that all these banks are based on. I know it does not feel real or tangible, but that is what banks are - a series of financial statements. For everyone of these dead loans certian assets are underperforming which affects one part of their financials. Additionally, because of their involvement in FDIC and other government regulators for every non perfoming dollar on their books they have to hold additional monies to cover these potential losses. This makes every bad loan a double dip against their ability to do what banks do.

I'm not saying this is going to work perfect... but it is the right idea. Surgically remove these "Assets" and allow the financials to return to normal. We still have difficult times ahead of us. Difficult times that could be greately enhanced by your plan and others like it.


You have confidence that our goverment can "surgically" remove the cancerous debt? They can't even identify a cancer until it's too late for a cure.

[TheDave]

You have confidence that our goverment can "surgically" remove the cancerous debt? They can't even identify a cancer until it's too late for a cure.

Paulson is highly respected in the financial world... Trust me, if this was Bush/Cheney performing this surgury i would be screaming from the top of the mountains with everyone else.

[TailgateNut]

Paulson is highly respected in the financial world... Trust me, if this was Bush/Cheney performing this surgury i would be screaming from the top of the mountains with everyone else.

This Paulson?

In August 2007, Secretary Paulson explained that U.S. subprime mortgage fallout remained largely contained due to the strongest global economy in decades. [24]

On July 20, 2008, after the failure of Indymac Bank, Paulson reassured the public by saying, “it's a safe banking system, a sound banking system. Our regulators are on top of it. This is a very manageable situation


:rofl:

[TheDave]

This Paulson?

In August 2007, Secretary Paulson explained that U.S. subprime mortgage fallout remained largely contained due to the strongest global economy in decades. [24]

On July 20, 2008, after the failure of Indymac Bank, Paulson reassured the public by saying, “it's a safe banking system, a sound banking system. Our regulators are on top of it. This is a very manageable situation


:rofl:

Yes that Paulson... Neither of those statements were wrong when he said them. Matter of fact they aren't far off even today.

[TailgateNut]

Yes that Paulson... Neither of those statements were wrong when he said them. Matter of fact they aren't far off even today.


Okee dokee! All is well! Nothing to see here!


We are talking about "foresight", not "hindsight", or are we?

[c_lazy_r]

Yes that Paulson... Neither of those statements were wrong when he said them. Matter of fact they aren't far off even today.

Huh??

Let's look at this again...

On July 20, 2008, after the failure of Indymac Bank, Paulson reassured the public by saying, “it's a safe banking system, a sound banking system. Our regulators are on top of it. This is a very manageable situation

Two months ago this was a "safe...sound banking system" and now if we don't inject $700 BILLION right now, the whole world is going to go into a financial meltdown of tremendous proportions?

You're going to have to clarify that for me.

[TheDave]

Okee dokee! All is well! Nothing to see here!


We are talking about "foresight", not "hindsight", or are we?


Alright... what did he say that was inaccurante?

In 2007 the subprime mess was contained, in part because the world economy was humming along. Now its slowed significantly and we have a bigger problem.

As for his comment on the banks... he was right. the banking system is sound. Did anyone lose a nickle when Indymac failed? No they didn't, guess that means the regulators were on it and it was a manageble situation.

[TailgateNut]

Huh??

Let's look at this again...

On July 20, 2008, after the failure of Indymac Bank, Paulson reassured the public by saying, “it's a safe banking system, a sound banking system. Our regulators are on top of it. This is a very manageable situation

Two months ago this was a "safe...sound banking system" and now if we don't inject $700 BILLION right now, the whole world is going to go into a financial meltdown of tremendous proportions?

You're going to have to clarify that for me.


I have a hard time with Dave "carrying water" for Paulson. In fact I don't trust Paulson as far as I could punt his ass.

just another Bush hack.

[c_lazy_r]

Any way you look at it, the government is pumping billions into the pockets of many of the crooks who are most responsible for this mess. In effect, what we are saying is, "Well, we've got this mafia running things and they screwed everything up through their uncontrollable greed, but at least they have a system already set up and if we pump a bunch of money into their system, things will start running again, just like we're used to."

I understand the plan. I'm just not buying into it. I'm in the Kucinich camp. What's the rush? Why can't we discuss this? Are there alternative routes to get to the same place? What are they? This has way too much of the feel of the Iraq War hysteria for me.

100% right.

[ak1971]

I have a hard time with Dave "carrying water" for Paulson. In fact I don't trust Paulson as far as I could punt his ass.

just another Bush hack.

so would Barney Frank do a better job for you? (guess I shouldnt mention 'jobs' when I mention ole Barney) http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk298/AK7745/banana.gif

[TheDave]

Huh??

Let's look at this again...

On July 20, 2008, after the failure of Indymac Bank, Paulson reassured the public by saying, “it's a safe banking system, a sound banking system. Our regulators are on top of it. This is a very manageable situation

Two months ago this was a "safe...sound banking system" and now if we don't inject $700 BILLION right now, the whole world is going to go into a financial meltdown of tremendous proportions?

You're going to have to clarify that for me.

This is what happens when people don't listen... The banking system isn't collapsing. without this legislation they will contract their lending which will have ripple effects throughout the economy. Thats bad, and puts our overall economy in further jeopardy.

Let me ask you this...if a handful of the 1,000's of banks collapse then the system is no longer sound? Does that mean that if a couple of small businesses fail that entrepreniurialship is broken? Does an outbreak of the flu mean the healthcare system is broken?

We have had a couple of banks that were SIGNIFICANTLY involved in the subprime mess fail. Good they needed to. That doesn't mean the entire system is FUBAR.

[c_lazy_r]

Alright... what did he say that was inaccurante?

In 2007 the subprime mess was contained, in part because the world economy was humming along. Now its slowed significantly and we have a bigger problem.

As for his comment on the banks... he was right. the banking system is sound. Did anyone lose a nickle when Indymac failed? No they didn't, guess that means the regulators were on it and it was a manageble situation.

Just for your reference, Dave:

"sound" adjective, -er, -est, adverb
–adjective

1.free from injury, damage, defect, disease, etc.; in good condition; healthy; robust: a sound heart; a sound mind.

2. financially strong, secure, or reliable: a sound business; sound investments.

3. competent, sensible, or valid: sound judgment.

4. having no defect as to truth, justice, wisdom, or reason: sound advice.

5. of substantial or enduring character: sound moral values.

6. following in a systematic pattern without any apparent defect in logic: sound reasoning.

7. uninterrupted and untroubled; deep: sound sleep.

8. vigorous, thorough, or severe: a sound thrashing.

9. free from moral defect or weakness; upright, honest, or good; honorable; loyal.

10. having no legal defect: a sound title to property.

11. theologically correct or orthodox, as doctrines or a theologian.


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sound

[c_lazy_r]

This is what happens when people don't listen... The banking system isn't collapsing. without this legislation they will contract their lending which will have ripple effects throughout the economy. Thats bad, and puts our overall economy in further jeopardy.

Let me ask you this...if a handful of the 1,000's of banks collapse then the system is no longer sound? Does that mean that if a couple of small businesses fail that entrepreniurialship is broken? Does an outbreak of the flu mean the healthcare system is broken?

We have had a couple of banks that were SIGNIFICANTLY involved in the subprime mess fail. Good they needed to. That doesn't mean the entire system is FUBAR.

Then why does this bill have to be rushed through right now?

[TheDave]

Then why does this bill have to be rushed through right now?

because this issue should of been adressed months ago. The longer we waite on this the worse the ripple effect will be.

People need to stop the all or nothing mentality. The world insn't coming to an end... We don't need to switch to the "Gold Standard"... and dogs and cats will not be living in harmony. That doesn't mean we should sit around and watch this problem continue to grow.

The plan is good... lets hope they execute it properly.

[TailgateNut]

Alright... what did he say that was inaccurante?

In 2007 the subprime mess was contained, in part because the world economy was humming along. Now its slowed significantly and we have a bigger problem.

As for his comment on the banks... he was right. the banking system is sound. Did anyone lose a nickle when Indymac failed? No they didn't, guess that means the regulators were on it and it was a manageble situation.



So, just because the wobbling wheels haven't fallen off the wagon, it's still safe to take it on a cross country trip?

I tend to be a bit more proactive.

[TheDave]

I tend to be a bit more proactive.

Then the "bailout" is right up your alley... something like this should of been done months ago.

[TailgateNut]

[QUOTE=TheDave;2109802]Alright... what did he say that was inaccurante?

In 2007 the subprime mess was contained, in part because the world economy was humming along. Now its slowed significantly and we have a bigger problem.

As for his comment on the banks... he was right. the banking system is sound. Did anyone lose a nickle when Indymac failed? No they didn't, guess that means the regulators were on it and it was a manageble situation.[/QUOTE


Please!

10 weeks ago the banking system was sound, and now according to the same hacks if we don't scramble the onset of the 2nd great depression is upon us.

If I were to manage my projects in the same manner I would be constantly hiring and firing. FYI, I have been able to sustain and employ a core group of employees through "thick and thin". Just a bit of "FORESIGHT". (and I do not use Ms. Cleo as some in our goverment obviously do).

[TailgateNut]

Then the "bailout" is right up your alley... something like this should of been done months ago.

BS.

Bailout, my ass. Let them go down the drain. If there is any influx/ handout of funds, it should be "fed" from the bottom up, not the top-down, as proposed.

[TailgateNut]

This is what happens when people don't listen... The banking system isn't collapsing. without this legislation they will contract their lending which will have ripple effects throughout the economy. Thats bad, and puts our overall economy in further jeopardy.

Let me ask you this...if a handful of the 1,000's of banks collapse then the system is no longer sound? Does that mean that if a couple of small businesses fail that entrepreniurialship is broken? Does an outbreak of the flu mean the healthcare system is broken?

We have had a couple of banks that were SIGNIFICANTLY involved in the subprime mess fail. Good they needed to. That doesn't mean the entire system is FUBAR.


If it's only a "couple of banks" and a "couple of small business" why do we need $700,000,000,000.00?

Must not be as sound as it was ten weeks ago.

[TheDave]

[QUOTE=TheDave;2109802]Alright... what did he say that was inaccurante?

In 2007 the subprime mess was contained, in part because the world economy was humming along. Now its slowed significantly and we have a bigger problem.

As for his comment on the banks... he was right. the banking system is sound. Did anyone lose a nickle when Indymac failed? No they didn't, guess that means the regulators were on it and it was a manageble situation.[/QUOTE


Please!

10 weeks ago the banking system was sound, and now according to the same hacks if we don't scramble the onset of the 2nd great depression is upon us.

If I were to manage my projects in the same manner I would be constantly hiring and firing. FYI, I have been able to sustain and employ a core group of employees through "thick and thin". Just a bit of "FORESIGHT". (and I do not use Ms. Cleo as some in our goverment obviously do).

Keep this in mind... there is a slight chance that global economics on this scale is slightly more difficult than your job. For the past year i've been a consultant for banks and home builders going through this (Gawd i miss teaching science/math). People have trouble predicting the movement of a single stock but we expect these guys to be spot on when predicting the entire Global Economy... Sorry but it isn't going to happen, with or without Ms. Cleo.

As for the $700 Billion mark... hell i'm not sure how that number came about. IMO the number of bad loans should be about 400-500 billion (assuming an average 30-40% disount). Now it's possible they are planning on creating a higher artificial floor than i anticipate. Not real happy with that, but i will defer to their knowledge of the situation.

In any case i still feel strongly that this is the right thing to do. With the proper controls this should help us dig our way out of things. It is still going to be a long road but this is a step in the right direction.

[TailgateNut]

[QUOTE=TailgateNut;2109835]

Keep this in mind... there is a slight chance that global economics on this scale is slightly more difficult than your job. For the past year i've been a consultant for banks and home builders going through this (Gawd i miss teaching science/math). People have trouble predicting the movement of a single stock but we expect these guys to be spot on when predicting the entire Global Economy... Sorry but it isn't going to happen, with or without Ms. Cleo.

As for the $700 Billion mark... hell i'm not sure how that number came about. IMO the number of bad loans should be about 400-500 billion (assuming an average 30-40% disount). Now it's possible they are planning on creating a higher artificial floor than i anticipate. Not real happy with that, but i will defer to their knowledge of the situation.

In any case i still feel strongly that this is the right thing to do. With the proper controls this should help us dig our way out of things. It is still going to be a long road but this is a step in the right direction.


My only comment (going back in time a bit): "Just stop writing checks"!;)

Sorry, my friend, we disagree on this BAIL-OUT!

[TheDave]

[QUOTE=TheDave;2109868]


My only comment (going back in time a bit): "Just stop writing checks"!;)

Sorry, my friend, we disagree on this BAIL-OUT!

Fair enough... :thumbs:

[alkemical]

You know where that very important $700-billion figure came from?

It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number." (http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/23/bailout-paulson-congress-biz-beltway-cx_jz_bw_0923bailout.html)

[Rohirrim]

[QUOTE=TailgateNut;2109835]

Keep this in mind... there is a slight chance that global economics on this scale is slightly more difficult than your job. For the past year i've been a consultant for banks and home builders going through this (Gawd i miss teaching science/math). People have trouble predicting the movement of a single stock but we expect these guys to be spot on when predicting the entire Global Economy... Sorry but it isn't going to happen, with or without Ms. Cleo.

As for the $700 Billion mark... hell i'm not sure how that number came about. IMO the number of bad loans should be about 400-500 billion (assuming an average 30-40% disount). Now it's possible they are planning on creating a higher artificial floor than i anticipate. Not real happy with that, but i will defer to their knowledge of the situation.

In any case i still feel strongly that this is the right thing to do. With the proper controls this should help us dig our way out of things. It is still going to be a long road but this is a step in the right direction.

Here's another voice on the subject:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/01/paul.qanda/index.html

Anyway, I think Ron Paul brings up some very good points. It's time for us to talk about the moral underpinnings of our economic structure. I realize that what we are doing now is basically throwing Godzilla a busload of munchies in the hopes that he won't devour all of us, but sooner or later we have to talk about getting rid of Godzilla himself.

The facts are that many of these securities, or derivatives, or whatever you want to call them, are worthless and will always be worthless. They're just write-offs. Unfortunately, the debt will be very real. And that debt is being shifted over to me, my kids, and their kids. It might mean their schools don't get better, the bridges don't get fixed, and our ports don't get secured. This is some big ****. Our cowardly government is just throwing money at a problem and, rightfully so, the people are demanding a thorough and complete explanation that they are not getting. All we're getting is a bunch of fear mongering and a pat on the head to go away and let the grown ups take care of it. These are the same "grown ups" who have ****ed everything up.

[ak1971]

It's not whether you're right or wrong that's important, but how much money you make when you're right and how much you lose when you're wrong

[elsid13]

[QUOTE=TailgateNut;2109835]

Keep this in mind... there is a slight chance that global economics on this scale is slightly more difficult than your job. For the past year i've been a consultant for banks and home builders going through this (Gawd i miss teaching science/math). People have trouble predicting the movement of a single stock but we expect these guys to be spot on when predicting the entire Global Economy... Sorry but it isn't going to happen, with or without Ms. Cleo.

As for the $700 Billion mark... hell i'm not sure how that number came about. IMO the number of bad loans should be about 400-500 billion (assuming an average 30-40% disount). Now it's possible they are planning on creating a higher artificial floor than i anticipate. Not real happy with that, but i will defer to their knowledge of the situation.

In any case i still feel strongly that this is the right thing to do. With the proper controls this should help us dig our way out of things. It is still going to be a long road but this is a step in the right direction.

The 700B was developed by doing a quick plus of the market by Treasury and management reserve. That one part of the process that they should have done better analytic work, but they wanted to get the credit flowing and reassure the markets before **** hit the fan.

[watermock]

I just got an offer of 10k citi card 6mo.s 0% Of course, my exuifax is about as sound as WaMu's.

[cutthemdown]

Who's the "appraiser" of these "ASSETS" we are buying. If Paulson has any say-so, I want a second opinion.

There in lies the biggest problem with the plan. I totally agree with people saying we need to make sure this is done right.

I honestly have no idea how to decide what these assets are worth. We need someone like Warren Buffett IMO. Maybe a panel made up of smart investors, judges, a few politicians and maybe even some consumer rights people.

What we dont want is to fleece the banks into bankruptcy by giving them nothing. That would almost be worst then the govt getting fleeced IMO.

I totally get people being pissed and wanting revenge on the people that always had more money and better lives then them. It's human nature to feel that way. IMO you have to take a step back and realize that this whole mess was created by the practice of debt swapping and the fact there was no way to know what the debt really was.

We need regulation which should make dems happy. Still this could have all been avoided when the red falgs were raised back in 2005.

Punishing all the banks by letting them fail would not be good for the country.

[Spider]

There in lies the biggest problem with the plan. I totally agree with people saying we need to make sure this is done right.

I honestly have no idea how to decide what these assets are worth. We need someone like Warren Buffett IMO. Maybe a panel made up of smart investors, judges, a few politicians and maybe even some consumer rights people.

What we dont want is to fleece the banks into bankruptcy by giving them nothing. That would almost be worst then the govt getting fleeced IMO.

I totally get people being pissed and wanting revenge on the people that always had more money and better lives then them. It's human nature to feel that way. IMO you have to take a step back and realize that this whole mess was created by the practice of debt swapping and the fact there was no way to know what the debt really was.

We need regulation which should make dems happy. Still this could have all been avoided when the red falgs were raised back in 2005.

Punishing all the banks by letting them fail would not be good for the country.

Didnt Buffet just stick a billion into the market ?
they was saying on the Radio here , that Bill Gates is lobbying for this bail out also ........
they had the CEO on from Bank of Floyd , he was saying he didnt invest into the Big banks , his assets are worth 220 Million , chump change in todays economy

[cutthemdown]

You do realize that most earmarks are infrastructure projects like buildings and roads right?

No I don't some of it is but tons are for stupid things like market research, advertising, stupid govt studies.

Plenty of those billions could be better spent creating jobs for blue collar Americans.

But yes I do understand much of that is being used to bring money back to the politicians home area. I just think its mostly wasted on stupid things.

[cutthemdown]

Also just eliminate welfare altogether and use that money instead for projects that put people to work. In times like this no one should be getting something for nothing right?

[elsid13]

No I don't some of it is but tons are for stupid things like market research, advertising, stupid govt studies.

Plenty of those billions could be better spent creating jobs for blue collar Americans.

But yes I do understand much of that is being used to bring money back to the politicians home area. I just think its mostly wasted on stupid things.

Most of the government studies go to public universities for research that in general helps the state's economy. But like I said before earmarks are less 5% of the federal budget there not as big as problem as some make them out to be. And most of them are infrastructure project because nothing show the home folks your taking care of them as nice new interpass named after your congressman!

[cutthemdown]

Most of the government studies go to public universities for research that in general helps the state's economy. But like I said before earmarks are less 5% of the federal budget there not as big as problem as some make them out to be. And most of them are infrastructure project because nothing show the home folks your taking care of them as nice new interpass named after your congressman!

5% of a budget as big as ours is a big deal IMO.

Let's not get to the point where 20 billion is considered a drop in the bucket. I realize Bush has spent so crazily on the war it seems like it is.

[ak1971]

Didnt Buffet just stick a billion into the market ?


$5 BB to Goldman
$3 BB to GE.

There is some serious money to be made here...even for the little guy.

[Spider]

$5 BB to Goldman
$3 BB to GE.

There is some serious money to be made here...even for the little guy.

So a 4 '5 guy can make some coin hey ;D ?

[cutthemdown]

Didnt Buffet just stick a billion into the market ?
they was saying on the Radio here , that Bill Gates is lobbying for this bail out also ........
they had the CEO on from Bank of Floyd , he was saying he didnt invest into the Big banks , his assets are worth 220 Million , chump change in todays economy

Buffet just stuck 5 billion into the market by buying into Goldman Sachs.

I think all Americans can agree he's smart when it comes to this sort of stuff. Let people like him decide what the assets are worth and how to best make them worth money again so govt doesn't end up with a bill for 700 billion.

With smart management this price tag could be reduced to maybe a 200 billion? hell maybe even break even.

We can't let people like Spider lose work because companies don't have liquid funds to pay truckers to make deliveries etc.

I totally understand people wanting then bankers blood I just don't think we should cut off our own noses just to get back at our faces.

Use the chance to cap CEO payout on companies that go under. that right there is a huge victory for the small guy IMO.

But people saying let them all go under and just start new banks don't understand the problem IMO.

[elsid13]

$5 BB to Goldman
$3 BB to GE.

There is some serious money to be made here...even for the little guy.

Well the good news that I own those stock already. Nice little ray of sunshine for my ego.

[TheDave]

$5 BB to Goldman
$3 BB to GE.

There is some serious money to be made here...even for the little guy.

Especially if you can get his terms.

[cutthemdown]

How about the govt lines up and shoots like 10 bankers. Would that make you all feel better?

[ak1971]

Especially if you can get his terms.

I bought FNM for .41 and dumped it at $2. Its fun to play with big boy blocks of shares.

[TheDave]

Buffet just stuck 5 billion into the market by buying into Goldman Sachs.

I think all Americans can agree he's smart when it comes to this sort of stuff. Let people like him decide what the assets are worth and how to best make them worth money again so govt doesn't end up with a bill for 700 billion.

With smart management this price tag could be reduced to maybe a 200 billion? hell maybe even break even.

We can't let people like Spider lose work because companies don't have liquid funds to pay truckers to make deliveries etc.

I totally understand people wanting then bankers blood I just don't think we should cut off our own noses just to get back at our faces.

Use the chance to cap CEO payout on companies that go under. that right there is a huge victory for the small guy IMO.

But people saying let them all go under and just start new banks don't understand the problem IMO.

I say you creat a psuedo auction house with a floating floor for these assets... Takes some of the burden off of the tax payer while allowing the market to help set the price.

[TheDave]

I bought FNM for .41 and dumped it at $2. Its fun to play with big boy blocks of shares.

Nice ****ing job...:thumbs:

[Spider]

Buffet just stuck 5 billion into the market by buying into Goldman Sachs.

I think all Americans can agree he's smart when it comes to this sort of stuff. Let people like him decide what the assets are worth and how to best make them worth money again so govt doesn't end up with a bill for 700 billion.

With smart management this price tag could be reduced to maybe a 200 billion? hell maybe even break even.

We can't let people like Spider lose work because companies don't have liquid funds to pay truckers to make deliveries etc.

I totally understand people wanting then bankers blood I just don't think we should cut off our own noses just to get back at our faces.

Use the chance to cap CEO payout on companies that go under. that right there is a huge victory for the small guy IMO.

But people saying let them all go under and just start new banks don't understand the problem IMO.

here is a serious problem I see , people in Diners , cafes talk about this none of them hit the real problem , for example i was in DeQueen Arkansas , stoped off at a greasy spoon for a quick bite to go , I heard people talking , 2 loons said this was a rigged up plan to move America to communism , another guy said we white people have to flip the bill for putting ****ers into their own homes , I said you azzholes dont have the first clue of what is about to go down ..........

[ak1971]

awesome...man I want these terms.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26975946#26976626

He basically says if he could take 1% of the profit on the deal, and they would buy at market, he would take the deal the govt is putting up to buy assets (if he had $700BB)

[elsid13]

here is a serious problem I see , people in Diners , cafes talk about this none of them hit the real problem , for example i was in DeQueen Arkansas , stoped off at a greasy spoon for a quick bite to go , I heard people talking , 2 loons said this was a rigged up plan to move America to communism , another guy said we white people have to flip the bill for putting ****ers into their own homes , I said you azzholes dont have the first clue of what is about to go down ..........

OK at what point did you call them Raider fans and piss in thier coffee?

[cutthemdown]

here is a serious problem I see , people in Diners , cafes talk about this none of them hit the real problem , for example i was in DeQueen Arkansas , stoped off at a greasy spoon for a quick bite to go , I heard people talking , 2 loons said this was a rigged up plan to move America to communism , another guy said we white people have to flip the bill for putting ****ers into their own homes , I said you azzholes dont have the first clue of what is about to go down ..........

Which is Bush's fault IMO. He's such a bad President he has no ability to lead anymore. We need someone to explain to America why even though this whole mess is BS, and peoples heads should roll, we have to try and fix it because otherwise it could be so bad retailers can't get products for Xmas season etc.

Truckers won't be able to make ends meet because businesses don't have capital to buy inventory so deliveries go way down etc.

[cutthemdown]

I say you creat a psuedo action house with a floating floor for these assets... Takes some of the burden off of the tax payer while allowing the market to help set the price.

That seems like a pretty smart idea. That way the assets value can move so neither side get's screwed.

[Spider]

OK at what point did you call them Raider fans and piss in thier coffee?

I wanted to , but the Sheriff was there ......

[elsid13]

I say you creat a psuedo auction house with a floating floor for these assets... Takes some of the burden off of the tax payer while allowing the market to help set the price.

I think in the end we will have public sponsored company responible for clean up this mess similiar to what happened with the Saving and Loans bailout.

[Spider]

Which is Bush's fault IMO. He's such a bad President he has no ability to lead anymore. We need someone to explain to America why even though this whole mess is BS, and peoples heads should roll, we have to try and fix it because otherwise it could be so bad retailers can't get products for Xmas season etc.

Truckers won't be able to make ends meet because businesses don't have capital to buy inventory so deliveries go way down etc.

i didnt realize the depth that credit went , until it hit home .......I got a rude awaking and fast .. i was supposed to go to Maryland that canceled , I ended up going to Norwoods Mo. overnight from Houston Texas Fema load ... now My punk ass is sitting in St. Louis waiting for a Load , get this , that has to be in Henderson Colorado by 2:30 pm ...... Less the 24 hours to go that far ..

[baja]

How about the govt lines up and shoots like 10 bankers. Would that make you all feel better?

Only if we water board them first.

[cutthemdown]

Only if we water board them first.

LOL whatever. My point is more that America is like an angry mob right now. They want some blood and until they get it they will oppose any bailout.

[TailgateNut]

How about the govt lines up and shoots like 10 bankers. Would that make you all feel better?

10000 yes. 10 doesn't even gnaw at the beast which created this mess.

...and I'm not just talking bankers. We need to include those who had a hand in the real estate debacle.

[TailgateNut]

LOL whatever. My point is more that America is like an angry mob right now. They want some blood and until they get it they will oppose any bailout.


You haven't seen angry mob yet. Wait 'till everone gets their portion of the bill associated with this early christmas gift for the greedy bastards who are walking away from their failures with giant bonuses.

Geezus, we have become a nation of lab rats!

[Rohirrim]

Here's another idea: What the Banksters are demanding is that we buy all their bad debt in return for them freeing up the credit flow. Once all the bad debt THEY CREATED is no longer plugging the channel, the flow of credit will resume. The only leverage we get out of the this is the hope (and it is a very small hope) that some of these lousy securities will somehow rehabilitate themselves down the line. :bs:

Why not get bank shares in trade for our money? Get some real leverage. Get control of the banks for our tax dollars, become shareholders (maybe majority shareholders), own the flow of credit, and when things stabilize, sell off the banks to the highest bidders and give the profit back to the taxpayers. Then we own the bad debt, but we also own the banks. Meanwhile, start investigating and prosecuting the criminals responsible, or at the very least, throwing their asses out on the street with nothing but the clothes on their backs.

[cutthemdown]

Here's another idea: What the Banksters are demanding is that we buy all their bad debt in return for them freeing up the credit flow. Once all the bad debt THEY CREATED is no longer plugging the channel, the flow of credit will resume. The only leverage we get out of the this is the hope (and it is a very small hope) that some of these lousy securities will somehow rehabilitate themselves down the line. :bs:

Why not get bank shares in trade for our money? Get some real leverage. Get control of the banks for our tax dollars, become shareholders (maybe majority shareholders), own the flow of credit, and when things stabilize, sell off the banks to the highest bidders and give the profit back to the taxpayers. Then we own the bad debt, but we also own the banks. Meanwhile, start investigating and prosecuting the criminals responsible, or at the very least, throwing their asses out on the street with nothing but the clothes on their backs.


The thing is we have banks that don't have bad debt that can't loan money because they know the other banks do. You make it sound like it's every bank.

[cutthemdown]

10000 yes. 10 doesn't even gnaw at the beast which created this mess.

...and I'm not just talking bankers. We need to include those who had a hand in the real estate debacle.

You proved my point though. What America wants more then a way out of the mess is revenge on people they feel our responsible.

Good leaders have to try and get over those type of feelings. I'm mad also but letting the whole system crash to make sure the bad guys dont get money is stupid.

[alkemical]

You proved my point though. What America wants more then a way out of the mess is revenge on people they feel our responsible.

Good leaders have to try and get over those type of feelings. I'm mad also but letting the whole system crash to make sure the bad guys dont get money is stupid.



The whole system won't crash. Just those that don't have credit, or assests. I mean, letting the bad guys screw you over and then paying them for screwing you over doesn't' seem like a smart idea for me.

[cutthemdown]

10000 yes. 10 doesn't even gnaw at the beast which created this mess.

...and I'm not just talking bankers. We need to include those who had a hand in the real estate debacle.

That would include a bunch of Americans who lied on there loan apps on the stated income. Loan officers who went along with. Really the big banks could say we don't handle income verification that happens where the loan originated.

If people were paying there mortgages none of this would be happening.

I live in a regular, So Calif, middle class area. When I graduated H.S in the 80's homes were modest inside. Then when the boom hit everyone was refinancing and putting in lavish bathroom and granite everywhere. It was like middle class still but trying to take a bath in the same type of bathroom the stars have. Marble everywhere and high end fixtures etc.

Americans lived beyond there means so who do we shoot first?

[alkemical]

That would include a bunch of Americans who lied on there loan apps on the stated income. Loan officers who went along with. Really the big banks could say we don't handle income verification that happens where the loan originated.

If people were paying there mortgages none of this would be happening.

I live in a regular, So Calif, middle class area. When I graduated H.S in the 80's homes were modest inside. Then when the boom hit everyone was refinancing and putting in lavish bathroom and granite everywhere. It was like middle class still but trying to take a bath in the same type of bathroom the stars have. Marble everywhere and high end fixtures etc.

Americans lived beyond there means so who do we shoot first?


I also love how school districts (here in PA) - reassess every two years - inflating prices on realestate so they then can raise taxes.

Funny money everywhere!!!!

[TailgateNut]

You proved my point though. What America wants more then a way out of the mess is revenge on people they feel our responsible.

Good leaders have to try and get over those type of feelings. I'm mad also but letting the whole system crash to make sure the bad guys dont get money is stupid.



No! As always, you read what you want to read and ignore numerous other posts regarding this fleecing of america.

I DO INSIST on heads rolling for this BS. Too many people reaped rewards when they should have recieved "pink slips". Time to fire away. If an entity needs to be rescued by the goverment/ taxpayers, someone obviously allowed that "business" to fail and shouldn't be rewarded with enormous salaries and compensation packages.
In addition, I have stated on numerous occasions that the failing entities could also be "bailed out" from the bottom up. I do not have any confidence in this plan, which buys assets of unknown value without a guarantee of return. In fact, many of these assets may already be liabilities at their assumed value. These institutions have been "cooking the books" for years and are looking for an easy out, and our goverment is stupid enough to pay $1.00 for a Quarter.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't subscribe to the assinine idea of rewarding failure.

[TailgateNut]

That would include a bunch of Americans who lied on there loan apps on the stated income. Loan officers who went along with. Really the big banks could say we don't handle income verification that happens where the loan originated.

If people were paying there mortgages none of this would be happening.

I live in a regular, So Calif, middle class area. When I graduated H.S in the 80's homes were modest inside. Then when the boom hit everyone was refinancing and putting in lavish bathroom and granite everywhere. It was like middle class still but trying to take a bath in the same type of bathroom the stars have. Marble everywhere and high end fixtures etc.

Americans lived beyond there means so who do we shoot first?


Shoot them all, as far as I'm concerned. RE: the applicants lying on their applications. I doubt the percentage of failures due to this phenomenon is in the double digits. On the other hand, predatory lenders, brokers and bankers are more suspect due to their rewards for closing on loans. I would also put the appraisers and reals estate developers into the crosshairs before targeting the gullible home buyers.


PS: I have done fairly well "for myself" and could live in a home twice to triple the size I currently own, but I have never felt the need to keep up with "the Jones's". I have never pulled a second mortgage, my home is just about paid off and all of my vehicles are paid off are "free and clear". I use credit cards for the sole purpose of rewards (miles and points), and pay off the balance each month while laughing at the CC companies. Even in this "puported credit crunch" I still recieve offers for high credit allowances at very low rates.

I feel no pity for the greedy assholes who are now facing dire consequences. They have made their bed, let them sleep in the MF.

**** them all.

[cutthemdown]

The whole system won't crash. Just those that don't have credit, or assests. I mean, letting the bad guys screw you over and then paying them for screwing you over doesn't' seem like a smart idea for me.

If banks won't loan money then how do retailers get a credit line to stock inventory for the Xmas season? You let the retail holiday system go down and we could be in big trouble. I know a couple small business owners right now that are having trouble getting the numbers they need.

What you don't understand is there is no bogeyman to punish. That's my point. The govt has to do what it has to do and can't worry about Ames feeling the bad guy is getting off with his money.

Sorry but you just don't get it.

[cutthemdown]

go ahead and cap compensation for any CEO who uses the govts plan. That's fair right there. It's really not the fault of the loan agents who probably looked at it like they were doing nothing wrong.

Predatory lending is a buzz word that IMO has clouded the issue. This is America and no one forces you to sign a deal for a loan.

The frontline line loan agents thought they were getting someone into a home, and making a buck at same time.

It was rampant speculation of what home prices would be that is to blame.

I know a bit about the appraisal biz, did that for a bit. It's all based on square footage and what the other homes in the area sold for. You can juice it a bit but not enough to cause this mess.

Comparable home sales in the area is the biggest factor in appraising.

[TailgateNut]

If banks won't loan money then how do retailers get a credit line to stock inventory for the Xmas season? You let the retail holiday system go down and we could be in big trouble. I know a couple small business owners right now that are having trouble getting the numbers they need.

What you don't understand is there is no bogeyman to punish. That's my point. The govt has to do what it has to do and can't worry about Ames feeling the bad guy is getting off with his money.

Sorry but you just don't get it.

Retailers don't need to stock up for the "holiday season", because the "holiday is over" and I predict a sales slump regardless of artificial "Bailout" successes.

[alkemical]

If banks won't loan money then how do retailers get a credit line to stock inventory for the Xmas season? You let the retail holiday system go down and we could be in big trouble. I know a couple small business owners right now that are having trouble getting the numbers they need.

What you don't understand is there is no bogeyman to punish. That's my point. The govt has to do what it has to do and can't worry about Ames feeling the bad guy is getting off with his money.

Sorry but you just don't get it.


If the retailers have good credit - smallers banks will loan the money. Imagine that!

Besides you gotta love the "but but but, we won't have tickle me elmo for xmas".

Give me an f'n break.

Let it fail, **** anyone who got us into this mess (yes, i'm talking to you america).

This isn't about me wanting to "punish" anyone, it's about doing the right thing.

[c_lazy_r]

If banks won't loan money then how do retailers get a credit line to stock inventory for the Xmas season? You let the retail holiday system go down and we could be in big trouble. I know a couple small business owners right now that are having trouble getting the numbers they need.

What you don't understand is there is no bogeyman to punish. That's my point. The govt has to do what it has to do and can't worry about Ames feeling the bad guy is getting off with his money.

Sorry but you just don't get it.

Hardship for one business or individual creates opportunity for another. That is how the cycle comes back around.

There are alot of small to medium sized businesses that couldn't qualify for bank money when the lending standards were low. How did these businesses survive without big brother bank?

[TailgateNut]

go ahead and cap compensation for any CEO who uses the govts plan. That's fair right there. It's really not the fault of the loan agents who probably looked at it like they were doing nothing wrong.

Predatory lending is a buzz word that IMO has clouded the issue. This is America and no one forces you to sign a deal for a loan.

The frontline line loan agents thought they were getting someone into a home, and making a buck at same time.

It was rampant speculation of what home prices would be that is to blame.

I know a bit about the appraisal biz, did that for a bit. It's all based on square footage and what the other homes in the area sold for. You can juice it a bit but not enough to cause this mess.

Comparable home sales in the area is the biggest factor in appraising.


That sure is a lot of HORSE**** in one post. It would have been easier to "swallow" had you slit it up into several different posts.

Predatory lending is exactly what the term references. A predator lending money. Bait and hook the hungry fish.

Appraisals are easily manipulated.

The front-line agents don't give a flying **** about the consumer.

You want people to believe that the real estate values cannot and were not manipulated. PULEEEZE, shovel that **** somewhere else.

[ak1971]

so the guy making $30K buying a $500K home has no issue here?

[TailgateNut]

so the guy making $30K buying a $500K home has no issue here?


WTF are you yammering about?

If he's being tossed into the street, so be it. But why are we bailing out the financial organization which loaned him the money?

...and if we do bail them out, find the MF who originated the loan and hang his ass from the nearest tree.

[ak1971]

WTF are you yammering about?

If he's being tossed into the street, so be it. But why are we bailing out the financial organization which loaned him the money?

...and if we do bail them out, find the MF who originated the loan and hang his ass from the nearest tree.

because you are yammering about hanging everyone from trees etc..just the same as Maxine Waters speech before the house still saying we need to have affordable housing and everyone needs to own a home

[TailgateNut]

because you are yammering about hanging everyone from trees etc..just the same as Maxine Waters speech before the house still saying we need to have affordable housing and everyone needs to own a home


If the noose fits......., we have plenty of trees!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

<center> http://www.bartcop.com/screw-ws-cure.jpg
</center>

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

because you are yammering about hanging everyone from trees etc..just the same as Maxine Waters speech before the house still saying we need to have affordable housing and everyone needs to own a home

Actually, that's almost verbatim what GeeDubya said in 2002 when he took FM & FM from mandatory to voluntary regulation and the subprime orgy commenced.

[W*GS]

Actually, that's almost verbatim what GeeDubya said in 2002 when he took FM & FM from mandatory to voluntary regulation and the subprime orgy commenced.

Be more specific.

[W*GS]

FM&FM were and are monsters...

http://www.washingtonian.com/articles/people/8593.html

[kappys]

If banks won't loan money then how do retailers get a credit line to stock inventory for the Xmas season? You let the retail holiday system go down and we could be in big trouble. I know a couple small business owners right now that are having trouble getting the numbers they need.

What you don't understand is there is no bogeyman to punish. That's my point. The govt has to do what it has to do and can't worry about Ames feeling the bad guy is getting off with his money.

Sorry but you just don't get it.

You need to get it out of your head that you are the only one who manages to understand this situation and that the other 90% of the population is too stupid. Sorry, but you're not that smart.

Everyone who has read about the situation understands that banks aren't lending each other money and that they are leveraged 10:1 and so have no free capital to give out loans. We also understand that many of these banks were doing business as usual - not taking on risky investments. Most of this applies to small banks that provide a large share of local small business loans. Solution - let the government provide overnight lending directly to these institutions. Now for larger companies like AT&T that might have to be handled differently - but it could be done without this massive giveaway that lacks any accountability or real reforms.