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mhgaffney
09-29-2008, 05:59 PM
The American people won a major victory today -- forcing the rejection of Paulson's $700 giveaway to Wall Street.

Despite whiners on this board like "the Dave" who don't get it -- the vast majority of Americans are correct in opposing Paulson's bail out. For once, Congress voted out of justifiable fear of the wrath of the people. For once.

However, the turkey is not dead. Be assured -- Paulson and the b**** Pelosi will return in a matter of days to try again.

It is extremely important that they be handed a second even more decisive defeat. It is probable that the next bail out package will only include a few cosmetic changes.

The real issue is whether the bail out approach is the right way to solve the underlying problem. 200 leading economists say "No!"

So why have there been no hearings in the House (which the Dems control)to solicit the opinions of these 200 leading experts??

Answer: because Pelosi & Co are owned by Wall Street. This NOT a partisan issue. It cuts across party boundaries.

If you are scratching your head -- trying to understand what is going down -- you are not alone. Here is an excellent analysis that will help.
MHG

September 29, 2008

House and Global Investors Vote "No" on Paulson Bailout

Black Monday?

By MIKE WHITNEY

www.counterpunch.org

Today the US House rejected Treasury Secretary Paulson's $700 billion Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 (Here's the roll call vote on the bailout). Paulson said he has the votes, but Paulson was wrong. The House bucked the Paulson's claim that buying up the illiquid mortgage-backed assets from the nation's banks would be enough to save the financial system from an impending meltdown. The jury remains out on that question, too. Professor Nouriel Roubini, chairman of Roubini Global Economics, summed it up like this, "You're not resolving the two fundamental issues: You still have to recapitalize the banking system, and household debt is going to stay high". A large number of economists believe Roubini is right. The bill would not solve the underlying problems.

There is a crisis. The banking system is undercapitalized, the credit markets are frozen, and foreign creditors are beginning to slow their purchases of US debt. It's all bad. At the same time the number of casualties among the financial giants--Bear Stearns, Indymac, AIG, Lehman, Washington Mutual--continues to grow. Three more struggling European banks were added to the list of financial institutions that needed emergency government assistance this past weekend. It's no wonder Congress feels like they have to do something to stop the bleeding.

Before the stock market opened on Monday, the futures markets had slumped heavily into negative territory, while the TED spread, an indicator of stress in interbank lending, had widened to 3.19, a level that suggests another rocky week of trading ahead. Could this be another Black Monday?

Paulson's bill was designed to avert a system-wide crash by clearing the banks' balance sheets so they could resume extending credit to consumers and businesses. The hope was that massive infusion of capital would "turn back the clock" to the happy days of low interest speculation and bubble economics. Paulson is a "one trick pony" who firmly adheres to the belief that wealth creation depends on maximum leverage and an ever-weakening currency. But that world view is no longer applicable after reaching Peak Credit, where consumers are no longer able to make the interest payments on their loans and businesses and financial institutions are forced to curb their spending and dump their toxic assets at firesale prices. The system is deleveraging and nothing can stop it. Paulson has yet to accept the new reality.

Besides, there was no guarantee that the banks would use the money in the way that Paulson imagines. As one Wall Street veteran explained to me, "I don't see one penny of that $700 billion ending up helping the broader economy. I see it being used to prop up share prices so the insiders can salvage as much as possible when dumping their shares".

Indeed, the $700 billion is just part of a massive "pump and dump" scheme engineered with the tacit approval of the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve. Once the banksters have offloaded their fraudulent securities and crappy paper on Uncle Sam, they will do whatever they need to do pad the bottom line and drive their stocks up. That means they will shovel capital into hard assets, foreign currencies, gold, interest rate swaps, carry trade swindles, and Swiss bank accounts. The notion that they will recapitalize so they can provide loans to US consumers and businesses in a slumping economy is a pipedream.

The US is headed into its worst recession in 60 years. The housing market is crashing, securitzation is kaput, and the broader economy is drifting towards the reef. The banks are not going to waste their time trying to revive a moribund US market where consumers and businesses are already tapped out. No way; it's on to greener pastures. They'll move their capital wherever they think they can maximize their profits. In fact, a sizable portion of the $700 billion will likely be invested in commodities, which means that we'll see another round of hyperbolic speculation in food and energy futures pushing food and fuel prices into the stratosphere. Ironically, the taxpayers’ largesse will be used against them, making a bad situation even worse.

Then again, if a rehabbed bill isn't passed, no one can predict with certainty what will happen. Here's how Tim Shipman summed it up in "Bailout Failure Will Cause US Crash", in the UK Telegraph:

"Officials close to Paulson are privately painting a far bleaker portrait of the fragility of the global economy than that advanced by President George W Bush in his televised address last week.

One Republican said that the message from government officials is that 'the economy is dropping into the john.' He added: 'We could see falls of 3,000 or 4,000 points on the Dow [the New York market that currently trades at around 11,000]. That could happen in just a couple of days.

'What’s being put around behind the scenes is that we’re looking at 1930s stuff. We’re looking at catastrophe, huge, amazing catastrophe. Everybody is extraordinarily scared. It’s going to be really, really nasty.'”

The fear on Capital Hill is palpable, especially among the Democrats who have led the effort to pass Paulson's boondoggle ASAP. Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, and fellow Democratic Party leaders, Chris Dodd, Harry Reid and the blabbering blowhard from Massachusetts, Barney Frank, did everything in their power to sandbag dissenters, quash resistance, and rush the bill to a vote without the usual deliberation and debate. Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-Ohio) was one of many angry members of congress who lashed out at Pelosi's highhandedness. It's all caught on a one minute video:

Rep. Marcy Kaptur: "The normal legislative process that should accompany a monumental proposal to bail out Wall Street has been shelved. Yes, shelved! Only a few insiders are doing the dealing. These criminals have so much power they can shut down the normal legislative process of the highest lawmaking body in this land. All the committees that should be scanning every word that is being negotiated have been benched. And that means the American people have been benched. We are constitutionally sworn to protect this country against all enemies foreign and domestic, and yes, my friends, there are enemies....The people who are pushing this bill are the very same one's who are responsible for the implosion on Wall Street. They were fraudulent then; and they are fraudulent now.We should say No to this deal".

Republicans were equally furious at the way the Pelosi Politburo kept the rank and file out of loop as much as possible. Rep. Michael Burgess (R-Texas) summarized the feelings of a great many congressmen who felt they were being railroaded by Pelosi and Co: "We have seen no bill. We have been here debating talking points ...House Republicans have been cut out of the process and derided by the leaders of the House Democrats as "unpatriotic" for not participating in supporting the bill. Mr. Speaker, I have been thrown out of more meetings in the last 24 hours than I ever thought possible as an elected official of 800,000 citizens of N. Texas....Since we didn't have hearings, since we didn't have markup, let's at least put this legislation up on the Internet for 24 hours and let the American people see what we have done in the dark of night. After all, I have never gotten more mail on a single issue than on this bill that is before us tonight."

Rep Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) gave the best speech of the day railing against the financial industry and defending the interests of working class Americans.

Rep. Dennis Kucinich: "The $700 bailout bill is being driven by fear not fact. This is too much money, in too short of time, going to too few people, while too many questions remain unanswered. Why aren't we having hearings...Why aren't we considering any other alternatives other than giving $700 billion to Wall Street? Why aren't we passing new laws to stop the speculation which triggered this? Why aren't we putting up new regulatory structures to protect the investors? Why aren't we directly helping homeowners with their debt burdens? Why aren't we helping American families faced with bankruptcy? Isn't time for fundamental change to our debt-based monetary system so we can free ourselves from the manipulation of the Federal Reserve and the banks? Is this the US Congress or the Board of Directors of Goldman Sachs?”

There was greater opposition to the Paulson bill than any legislation in the last half century. The groundswell of public outrage has been unprecedented, and yet, Congress, completely insulated from the demands of their constituents, continues to blunder ahead following the same pro-industry script as their ideological twins in the White House. There's not a dime's worth of difference between the two parties. Not surprisingly, neither Pelosi nor any of the Democratic leadership has even met with any of the more than 200 leading economists who have stated unequivocally that the bailout will not address the central problems that are wreaking havoc on the financial system. Instead, they have caved in to Bush's demagoguery and the spurious claims of G-Sax bagman Henry Paulson, a man who has misled the public on every issue related to the subprime/financial fiasco so far.

There are parts of Paulson's Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 that every US taxpayer should understand, even though the media is keeping those facts obscured. In sections 128 and 132; the proposed bill would have suspend "mark to market" accounting. This means that the banks would no longer be required to assess the worth of their assets according to what similar assets fetched on the open market. For example, Merrill Lynch just sold $31 billion of mortgage-backed securities for $6 billion, which means that similar bonds should be similarly priced. Simple; right? The banks need to adjust the value of those assets on their balance sheet accordingly. This gives investors and depositors the ability to know whether their bank is in bad shape or not. But Paulson's bill lifted this requirement and allowed the banks to assign their own arbitrary value to these assets, which is the same old Enron-style accounting scam.

Paulson's bill also proposed the "Elimination of FASB 157 and 0% reserves". This is just as sketchy as it sounds. FASB or Financial Services Regulatory Relief Act reads:

"Federal Reserve Banks are authorized to pay banks interest on reserves under Section 201 of the Act. In addition, Section 202 permits the FRB to change the ratio of reserves a bank must maintain relative to its transaction accounts, allowing a zero reserve ratio if appropriate. Due to federal budgetary requirements, Section 203 provides that these legislative changes will not take effect until October 1, 2011."

It's all legal mumbo jumbo to conceal the fact that the banks can continue to operate with insufficient capital, which is why the system is currently blowing up. It all get's down to this: The reason the system is exploding is because the various financial institutions have been allowed--via deregulation--to act as banks and create as much credit as they choose without a sufficient capital base. When one reads about massive deleveraging, this relates directly to the fact that under-capitalized businesses were operating with too much debt in relationship to their capital. That's it in a nutshell; forget about the CDOs, the MBSs, the CDS and the whole alphabet soup of derivatives garbage. They were all inserted into the system so Wall Street landsharks could expand credit without supervision and balance trillions of dollars of debt on the back of a one dollar bill. This is why Paulson wants to suspend the rules which would bring credibility and trust back to the system. After all, that might impinge on Wall Street's ability to enrich itself at the public's expense.

Nouriel Roubini sites a study by Barry Eichengreen, "And Now the Great Depression", which points out why Paulson's $700 billion plan is likely to fail:

"Whenever there is a systemic banking crisis there is a need to recapitalize the banking/financial system to avoid an excessive and destructive credit contraction. But purchasing toxic/illiquid assets of the financial system is NOT the most effective and efficient way to recapitalize the banking system....

“A recent IMF study of 42 systemic banking crises across the world provides evidence of how different crises were resolved.

“First of all only in 32 of the 42 cases there was government financial intervention of any sort; in 10 cases systemic banking crises were resolved without any government financial intervention. Of the 32 cases where the government recapitalized the banking system only seven included a program of purchase of bad assets/loans (like the one proposed by the US Treasury). In 25 other cases there was no government purchase of such toxic assets. In 6 cases the government purchased preferred shares; in 4 cases the government purchased common shares; in 11 cases the government purchased subordinated debt; in 12 cases the government injected cash in the banks; in 2 cases credit was extended to the banks; and in 3 cases the government assumed bank liabilities. Even in cases where bad assets were purchased – as in Chile – dividends were suspended and all profits and recoveries had to be used to repurchase the bad assets. Of course in most cases multiple forms of government recapitalization of banks were used." (Nouriel Roubini's Global EonoMonitor.)

In short, it wouldn't work. Nor was it designed to work. The bill was just Paulson's way of carving a silver canoe for he and his brandy-drooling investor buddies so they can paddle away to some offshore haven while the rest of us drown in a bottomless ocean of debt.

Mike Whitney lives in Washington state. He can be reached at fergiewghitney@msn.com

kappys
09-29-2008, 06:01 PM
Keep up the good work Mark!

Once the proposal gets out there my congresswoman can rest assured that she'll be receiving another letter from me.

Rohirrim
09-29-2008, 07:36 PM
I can't believe Americans are willing to believe anything that originated in the Bush/Cheney WH, including Colonel Klink. Right off the bat, this does not pass the smell test. Why?

Read what Kucinich says:
"The $700 bailout bill is being driven by fear not fact. This is too much money, in too short of time, going to too few people, while too many questions remain unanswered. Why aren't we having hearings...Why aren't we considering any other alternatives other than giving $700 billion to Wall Street? Why aren't we passing new laws to stop the speculation which triggered this? Why aren't we putting up new regulatory structures to protect the investors? Why aren't we directly helping homeowners with their debt burdens? Why aren't we helping American families faced with bankruptcy? Isn't time for fundamental change to our debt-based monetary system so we can free ourselves from the manipulation of the Federal Reserve and the banks? Is this the US Congress or the Board of Directors of Goldman Sachs?”

Colonel Klink and his enablers Pelosi, Frank, et al are presenting us with what is known in dialectics as a false dilemna. It's either this, or this. :bs: There are numerous tactics that can be employed. They only want to discuss those options which are the most benefit to them and their cronies.

watermock
09-29-2008, 07:52 PM
God, this is distressing. Not a good time to be broke and crippled. Wonder when my assistance will collapse? Thing is, 2007 ,I had a 500k trust...I'm pretty scared.

Maybe I'll pull a Baja and ride my cards around the world...ha!

BroncoBuff
09-29-2008, 09:23 PM
gaffney is against the bailout. Now I KNOW it's the right thing to do.

BroncoBuff
09-29-2008, 09:31 PM
I can't believe Americans are willing to believe anything that originated in the Bush/Cheney WH, including Colonel Klink. Right off the bat, this does not pass the smell test. Why?

Read what Kucinich says:
"The $700 bailout bill is being driven by fear not fact. This is too much money, in too short of time, going to too few people, while too many questions remain unanswered. Why aren't we having hearings...Why aren't we considering any other alternatives other than giving $700 billion to Wall Street? Why aren't we passing new laws to stop the speculation which triggered this? Why aren't we putting up new regulatory structures to protect the investors? Why aren't we directly helping homeowners with their debt burdens? Why aren't we helping American families faced with bankruptcy? Isn't time for fundamental change to our debt-based monetary system so we can free ourselves from the manipulation of the Federal Reserve and the banks? Is this the US Congress or the Board of Directors of Goldman Sachs?”

Colonel Klink and his enablers Pelosi, Frank, et al are presenting us with what is known in dialectics as a false dilemna. It's either this, or this. :bs: There are numerous tactics that can be employed. They only want to discuss those options which are the most benefit to them and their cronies.
We disagree ... unlike the first 3-page Paulsen bailout, THIS bailout is/was the right thing to do. I think the "other tactics" you refer to are either a) long-term fundamental changes (e.g., STET surcharges/taxes), or b) measures that were added in the weekend re-write (Gov't ownership shares in failing financial houses (key), foreclosure protection by permitting bk judges to re-write mortgage terms (also key), extensive transparency and oversight, and caps on executive pay at failing financial houses).

Plus, $700B is an unlikely figure. Only $175B of that figure is available now, with another $175B available in six months (under a new Treasury Secy). The second $350B would have needed new Congressional action to be disbursed.

This was the right thing to do. 777 points lost just today - instead of the several hundred point gain that would've been GAINED had this bill been passed - represents tens of millions lost, maybe more.

That's what people are missing here ... the market losses in just the last week or two account for many, many billions of dollars that would NOT have been lost had a bill been passed.

baja
09-29-2008, 10:02 PM
My take, this bailout is not the right thing to do but none the less it is what will be done in hopes of buying time (that is human nature) Thing is this is only going to buy some time but that is good in a way because the idiot will be out of office and we might have some leadership (Obama) dealing with this fatal problem. I think it is so very broken that we will have do a rebuild and that is gonna really hurt.

Gold, Seed, Hand tools and off grid living is the smart move now.

enjolras
09-29-2008, 10:17 PM
That's what people are missing here ... the market losses in just the last week or two account for many, many billions of dollars that would NOT have been lost had a bill been passed.

That's the least of it. We're going to see massive layoffs if the credit markets don't open up again. There are large swaths of the economy dependent on short-term financing for a whole host of things (like making payroll). I have intimate knowledge of one billion dollar revenue company that is already moving in that direction. They routinely take loans to pay payroll while waiting for big contracts to pay. In the end they are cash-flow positive, but for much of the year they require credit to make payroll during the collection cycle.

They're either going to have to cut wages across the board or start laying people off until this passes.

enjolras
09-29-2008, 10:19 PM
Same thing goes for small companies dependent on venture money. So far the venture markets have come through this pretty well, but I made some calls today and am hearing that unless the markets regain some traction we're going to see a huge decrease in the amount of available venture capital. Much of the venture money comes from wealthy investors who are having to shore up their other investments and businesses at the moment. If the venture money stops, that will have a HUGE long-term impact (a decade or more) as it will dry up the new crop of startups that are traditionally among the biggest job creators we have. They go away, the economy is stagnant at best over the coming years.

BroncoBuff
09-29-2008, 10:23 PM
Excellent stuff enjolras. It's awkward to see SO many people opposed to this bill, most of them just don't understand what's at stake here.

Make no mistake, this is armageddon at the door. We need to stop the bleeding NOW.

DomCasual
09-29-2008, 10:45 PM
God, this is distressing. Not a good time to be broke and crippled. Wonder when my assistance will collapse? Thing is, 2007 ,I had a 500k trust...I'm pretty scared.

Maybe I'll pull a Baja and ride my cards around the world...ha!

Dude, whatever happened to your peanut butter lawsuit?

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
09-30-2008, 01:47 AM
gaffney is against the bailout. Now I KNOW it's the right thing to do.

???

Please tell me you're just pulling my leg here.

I can't imagine how you could read the article and come to this conclusion.

Don't fall for the economic "mushroom clouds!"

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
09-30-2008, 01:49 AM
I can't believe Americans are willing to believe anything that originated in the Bush/Cheney WH, including Colonel Klink. Right off the bat, this does not pass the smell test. Why?

Read what Kucinich says:
"The $700 bailout bill is being driven by fear not fact. This is too much money, in too short of time, going to too few people, while too many questions remain unanswered. Why aren't we having hearings...Why aren't we considering any other alternatives other than giving $700 billion to Wall Street? Why aren't we passing new laws to stop the speculation which triggered this? Why aren't we putting up new regulatory structures to protect the investors? Why aren't we directly helping homeowners with their debt burdens? Why aren't we helping American families faced with bankruptcy? Isn't time for fundamental change to our debt-based monetary system so we can free ourselves from the manipulation of the Federal Reserve and the banks? Is this the US Congress or the Board of Directors of Goldman Sachs?”

Colonel Klink and his enablers Pelosi, Frank, et al are presenting us with what is known in dialectics as a false dilemna. It's either this, or this. :bs: There are numerous tactics that can be employed. They only want to discuss those options which are the most benefit to them and their cronies.

Yep.

Bush, Bernanke, Paulson, Pelosi and every rep who supports this swindle are traitors of the highest order.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
09-30-2008, 02:05 AM
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elsid13
09-30-2008, 02:59 AM
That's the least of it. We're going to see massive layoffs if the credit markets don't open up again. There are large swaths of the economy dependent on short-term financing for a whole host of things (like making payroll). I have intimate knowledge of one billion dollar revenue company that is already moving in that direction. They routinely take loans to pay payroll while waiting for big contracts to pay. In the end they are cash-flow positive, but for much of the year they require credit to make payroll during the collection cycle.

They're either going to have to cut wages across the board or start laying people off until this passes.

That what scare me. People don't realize the number of short term loan business take to make payroll, buy equipment or support R&D efforts. It not business living outside their means it about cash flow and timing.

The credit market need relief and congressional action is required to get the credit flowing.

baja
09-30-2008, 04:43 AM
<b>I can't believe Americans are willing to believe anything that originated in the Bush/Cheney WH, including Colonel Klink. Right off the bat, this does not pass the smell test. Why? </b>

Read what Kucinich says:
"The $700 bailout bill is being driven by fear not fact. This is too much money, in too short of time, going to too few people, while too many questions remain unanswered. Why aren't we having hearings...Why aren't we considering any other alternatives other than giving $700 billion to Wall Street? Why aren't we passing new laws to stop the speculation which triggered this? Why aren't we putting up new regulatory structures to protect the investors? Why aren't we directly helping homeowners with their debt burdens? Why aren't we helping American families faced with bankruptcy? Isn't time for fundamental change to our debt-based monetary system so we can free ourselves from the manipulation of the Federal Reserve and the banks? Is this the US Congress or the Board of Directors of Goldman Sachs?”

Colonel Klink and his enablers Pelosi, Frank, et al are presenting us with what is known in dialectics as a false dilemna. It's either this, or this. :bs: There are numerous tactics that can be employed. They only want to discuss those options which are the most benefit to them and their cronies.

LOL I was saying to a guy on the airplane that if Bush wanted this to pass than he needed to come out against this bail out.

baja
09-30-2008, 04:44 AM
BTW can you believe congress is recessed for two days. Rome is burning gentleman put down the fiddle.

mhgaffney
09-30-2008, 05:54 AM
Paulson is telling us the crisis is about liquidity.

But what if the economists who oppose the bail out are correct? They say it's really about insolvency.

So let the free market system work! Let the bankers who perpetrated massive fraud and/or bad debts go bankrupt!

This is not the end of the world. This is the necessary bowel movement to cleanse the system -- and resolve the problem.

This will no doubt cause a difficult period -- but if we let the system work things will slowly begin to improve.

The worst thing to do is throw more good money after bad. This will only delay the inevitable and make the collapse --- when it comes --- even worse.

MHG

mhgaffney
09-30-2008, 05:56 AM
My Congressman here in Oregon voted FOR the bail out. Be assured -- he will hear from me Tuesday morning.

baja
09-30-2008, 05:58 AM
Paulson is telling us the crisis is about liquidity.

But what if the economists who oppose the bail out are correct? They say it's really about insolvency.

So let the free market system work! Let the bankers who perpetrated massive fraud and/or bad debts go bankrupt!

This is not the end of the world. This is the necessary bowel movement to cleanse the system -- and resolve the problem.

This will no doubt cause a difficult period -- but if we let the system work things will slowly begin to improve.

The worst thing to do is throw more good money after bad. This will only delay the inevitable and make the collapse --- when it comes --- even worse.

MHG

Mark you are right but you are also missing an important facet of this, the correction needs to happen after the bafoon leaves office.

kappys
09-30-2008, 06:03 AM
My Congressman here in Oregon voted FOR the bail out. Be assured -- he will hear from me Tuesday morning.

Still can't get on the clerks website to send off another message.

Bottom line is there are better ways to solve liquidity problems then bailing out stupid investments

mhgaffney
09-30-2008, 06:16 AM
You can find out how your rep voted - here:

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/washington/ROLLCALL.html?currentChamber=house&currentSession=2&currentCongress=110&currentRoll=674

alkemical
09-30-2008, 06:21 AM
The Keynesian Fallacy: The Paulson Plan Won't Create Wealth (http://mises.org/story/3132)

In very simple terms, the Paulson Plan is a straight-up transfer of $700 billion — and counting! — from the taxpayers to a few big financial institutions. (Some smaller banks are complaining that they don't own the exotic mortgage-backed derivatives, but rather simple mortgages. They do not believe they will see a dime of the Paulson money.) It's easy to get all twisted around, but just remind yourself of this: the Paulson Plan has the federal government borrow $700 billion (through issuing Treasury debt) in order to buy assets from Wall Street banks. (We are neglecting the time delay in the program; the entire $700 billion wouldn't be spent all at once.)

Some analysts think that the price paid for these "toxic" assets is important. No it isn't. The government officials running this operation will dole out the favors on both ends, when the mortgage-backed securities are coming and when they are going. Neglecting this insight, some people want to say that if the government pays $700 billion for a portfolio of assets that is really only worth $400 billion, then the taxpayers really only lost $300 billion, not the full $700 billion.

Yet this thinking is naïve. The taxpayers are not going to be treated as equivalent to shareholders of a firm that just acquired $400 billion in assets. The taxpayers are not going to get a cut of the monthly mortgage payments (less the servicing costs on the $700 billion in new debt) tied to the government's massive portfolio. Instead, the government will simply bump up its annual spending by a few billion dollars. Maybe it will have to spend the money on homeownership programs, or homebuilder job retraining, but the net income from those government-owned assets certainly won't translate into a dollar-for-dollar tax cut.
"Some very sharp academic economists are in a tizzy trying to treat this as an extra-credit question, rather than a crime scene."

And then at some point — during a future Republican administration, no doubt — there will be a push to "privatize" the secondary mortgage market, and the government's portfolio at that time will be auctioned off at very generous prices to politically connected institutions. For example, maybe the $400 billion portfolio is auctioned off for $250 billion. (Perhaps the big banks have to set up subsidiaries owned by minorities and women who get preferential treatment in the bidding process. But whatever the ruse, they will find a way to justify the low prices.) When all is said and done, the government will have played hot potato with the MBS, and the national debt — borne by taxpayers — would be $450 (=$700-$250) billion higher. The favored financial institutions would be "up" roughly the same amount, collectively. (Throughout, we are ignoring the timings of the payoffs and the effect on present discounted value.)

It is the crudest Keynesianism to view the Paulson Plan as an injection of capital or "liquidity." That money has to come from somewhere. If it is taxed or borrowed, then it is just a shell game; the liquidity is drained from elsewhere, to be injected into Wall Street.

Besides taxing or borrowing, the government has a trump card: it can have the Federal Reserve simply create the new money out of thin air, by engaging in some "Open Market Operations." Yet even in this case, real wealth still hasn't increased. Certain nominal figures, like "aggregate asset values" might go up. But that's not very relevant, because the economy isn't really richer. After all, there aren't more tractors or office buildings just because Bernanke allows the monetary base to grow more rapidly. So what happens in this case is that prices rise; people find it harder to buy milk, bread, and gasoline. But the Wall Street fat cats are fine with the general price hikes, because they got their hands on the newly injected funny money early in the game.

mhgaffney
09-30-2008, 06:24 AM
Baja,

I disagree. The best way to prevent a US attack on Iran is to allow the inevitable financial crisis to start NOW rather than later.

Indeed, the sooner the better -- as this will also hasten the end of the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Recently, Paul Craig Roberts argued that the wars will end when the US can no longer borrow money to fund them. He is right. So let it happen now!

Why wait?

Mark

alkemical
09-30-2008, 06:27 AM
Baja,

I disagree. The best way to prevent a US attack on Iran is to allow the inevitable financial crisis to start NOW rather than later.

Indeed, the sooner the better -- as this will also hasten the end of the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Recently, Paul Craig Roberts argued that the wars will end when the US can no longer borrow money to fund them. He is right. So let it happen now!

Why wait?

Mark


Why did the soviet empire fall?

Garcia Bronco
09-30-2008, 06:31 AM
For once, the book guy and I agree.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
09-30-2008, 06:41 AM
Why did the soviet empire fall?

Osama doesn't have to lift a finger - he need only sit back and watch the court-appointed pinhead borrow and spend America into oblivion.

baja
09-30-2008, 07:01 AM
Baja,

I disagree. The best way to prevent a US attack on Iran is to allow the inevitable financial crisis to start NOW rather than later.

Indeed, the sooner the better -- as this will also hasten the end of the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Recently, Paul Craig Roberts argued that the wars will end when the US can no longer borrow money to fund them. He is right. So let it happen now!

<b>Why wait?</b>

Mark

We need something that resembles leadership, if we do not put a band aid on this and let Bush ride off into the sunset than when the markets tank Bush will have his excuse to order martial law This is why I want to wait. Think about it Mark, Bush would have his perfect invitation to put the troops on the streets to squelch the panic when if fact he he will be feeding the chaos. Bush's great attribute is to take a bad situation and make it infinitely worse.

Garcia Bronco
09-30-2008, 07:34 AM
We need something that resembles leadership, if we do not put a band aid on this and let Bush ride off into the sunset than when the markets tank Bush will have his excuse to order martial law This is why I want to wait. Think about it Mark, Bush would have his perfect invitation to put the troops on the streets to squelch the panic when if fact he he will be feeding the chaos. Bush's great attribute is to take a bad situation and make it infinitely worse.

I just don't think that's going to happen. Then the real riot will begin. A) He can't declare martial law. The Constitution will prohibit him from doing so. Executive orders aren't laws. The question becomes whether the SCOTUS and Congress would stop him. I think they would.

alkemical
09-30-2008, 07:39 AM
I just don't think that's going to happen. Then the real riot will begin. A) He can't declare martial law. The Constitution will prohibit him from doing so. Executive orders aren't laws. The question becomes whether the SCOTUS and Congress would stop him. I think they would.

They've done such an awesome job so far, eh?

Garcia Bronco
09-30-2008, 07:41 AM
They've done such an awesome job so far, eh?

If Congress ends up agreeing with him then it's all moot.

Rohirrim
09-30-2008, 07:45 AM
We need something that resembles leadership, if we do not put a band aid on this and let Bush ride off into the sunset than when the markets tank Bush will have his excuse to order martial law This is why I want to wait. Think about it Mark, Bush would have his perfect invitation to put the troops on the streets to squelch the panic when if fact he he will be feeding the chaos. Bush's great attribute is to take a bad situation and make it infinitely worse.

Bush's popularity rating right now is about 19%. He can't order anybody to do anything. He has zero political power. Hell, he could only get four friggin Texans to vote with him yesterday. The rest told him to stick it. Ain't gonna happen.

sisterhellfyre
09-30-2008, 07:56 AM
I just don't think that's going to happen. Then the real riot will begin. A) He can't declare martial law. The Constitution will prohibit him from doing so. Executive orders aren't laws. The question becomes whether the SCOTUS and Congress would stop him. I think they would.


GB, you really need to catch up on reading the executive orders again. All the mechanisms are already in place for a declaration of martial law which cannot be reviewed by Congress, the Supreme Court or *anybody* for the duration of the emergency as declared by the President. He's the only one who can look over his own shoulder.

Regards,
m.

Garcia Bronco
09-30-2008, 07:58 AM
GB, you really need to catch up on reading the executive orders again. All the mechanisms are already in place for a declaration of martial law which cannot be reviewed by Congress, the Supreme Court or *anybody* for the duration of the emergency as declared by the President. He's the only one who can look over his own shoulder.

Regards,
m.

Nope. He's talking about suspending Habeas Corpus which he cannot do. What's he going to do? Send the military in to seize congress? Then what? You think our Military is going to follow his orders and kill all of us? Because that's what it's going to take. Like Roh said, his 19 percent won't get him anywhere.

alkemical
09-30-2008, 08:14 AM
If Congress ends up agreeing with him then it's all moot.

See, my positiion GB - is that if congrass blindly signs a bill that turns their authority over - no-one can stop.

If marshal law is declared, and the congress peoples who don't go along are labeled as "traitors/terrorists" - it could put a crimp in the constitution.

Not to mention - as W*gs has always pointed out - when was the last president that didn't trample on the constitution?

Garcia Bronco
09-30-2008, 08:16 AM
See, my positiion GB - is that if congrass blindly signs a bill that turns their authority over - no-one can stop.

If marshal law is declared, and the congress peoples who don't go along are labeled as "traitors/terrorists" - it could put a crimp in the constitution.

Not to mention - as W*gs has always pointed out - when was the last president that didn't trample on the constitution?

Congress cannot give away this authority. It's in the Constitution. Anyone know how we change the Constitution? Anyone? I would like one person just to post it. I have asked this before and no one here could answer it.

alkemical
09-30-2008, 08:30 AM
Congress cannot give away this authority. It's in the Constitution. Anyone know how we change the Constitution? Anyone? I would like one person just to post it. I have asked this before and no one here could answer it.


Garcia,

you keep assuming the criminals follow the law.

sisterhellfyre
09-30-2008, 08:36 AM
Congress cannot give away this authority. It's in the Constitution. Anyone know how we change the Constitution? Anyone? I would like one person just to post it. I have asked this before and no one here could answer it.

GB, there are times when you take the concept of willful blindness to astounding new levels. The process of changing the Constitution is a long and involved one: first the proposed change has to be approved in Congress (tho I can't remember if it's House or Senate that votes), and then it has to be ratified by a majority of states in the Union. I believe the current state count to achieve ratification is 37. (I remember that cuz I know the ERA is still stuck just one or two states below that level.) It's a long, involved, difficult and expensive process.

The other way to modify the US Constitution would be to call a constitutional convention, which is an even more bizarre and arcane mechanism that would put the whole document up for grabs at once.

That, however, is not the point.

The threat of martial law by executive order comes from the concept of the unitary executive: the belief that the President, by the authority of his office, can give orders in the executive branch which must be obeyed and cannot be reviewed by the other branches of government. Bush and Cheney are the biggest proponents of the unitary executive. Between signing statements and executive orders, they've set it up as the next best thing to an imperial presidency. And guess what? According to the Constitution, the military falls under the direct authority of Caesar -- er, the President.

Are you willing to bet that if Bush declared a state of emergency and sent the Army's recently assigned "NorthCom" (that's us) combat brigade into NYC to quell (so-called) thugs and gangbangers engaged in rioting and looting, they wouldn't go? Are you willing to bet some hotheaded trooper wouldn't pull the trigger on his rifle if he felt in peril of life and limb?

It happened once before. Do the words "Kent State" ring a bell for you?

Regards,
m.

Garcia Bronco
09-30-2008, 08:48 AM
Garcia,

you keep assuming the criminals follow the law.

Then by God we make them.

snowspot66
09-30-2008, 08:51 AM
It's an election year after the 8 worst years of a Presidency ever in the history of this country. I won't say he can't declare martial law but I don't believe he would. If you tell people that the election is on hold there are going to be masses of people across the political spectrum extremely pissed off. Some people would die in all likelihood and it wouldn't take long until the troops are being attacked by civilians and are extremely demoralized because none of them signed up to shoot Americans. If he does that he might as well sign his own death warrant. As soon as he's removed from power the public would be demanding his execution.

Garcia Bronco
09-30-2008, 08:59 AM
GB, there are times when you take the concept of willful blindness to astounding new levels. The process of changing the Constitution is a long and involved one: first the proposed change has to be approved in Congress (tho I can't remember if it's House or Senate that votes), and then it has to be ratified by a majority of states in the Union. I believe the current state count to achieve ratification is 37. (I remember that cuz I know the ERA is still stuck just one or two states below that level.) It's a long, involved, difficult and expensive process.

The other way to modify the US Constitution would be to call a constitutional convention, which is an even more bizarre and arcane mechanism that would put the whole document up for grabs at once.

That, however, is not the point.

The threat of martial law by executive order comes from the concept of the unitary executive: the belief that the President, by the authority of his office, can give orders in the executive branch which must be obeyed and cannot be reviewed by the other branches of government. Bush and Cheney are the biggest proponents of the unitary executive. Between signing statements and executive orders, they've set it up as the next best thing to an imperial presidency. And guess what? According to the Constitution, the military falls under the direct authority of Caesar -- er, the President.

Are you willing to bet that if Bush declared a state of emergency and sent the Army's recently assigned "NorthCom" (that's us) combat brigade into NYC to quell (so-called) thugs and gangbangers engaged in rioting and looting, they wouldn't go? Are you willing to bet some hotheaded trooper wouldn't pull the trigger on his rifle if he felt in peril of life and limb?

It happened once before. Do the words "Kent State" ring a bell for you?

Regards,
m.

Finally someone describes the amendment process. There is no amendment giving the President this power. In your example you are also refering to a small scope problem. We are talking about something bigger in scope for the President to even attempt what we are talking about.

Garcia Bronco
09-30-2008, 09:00 AM
It's an election year after the 8 worst years of a Presidency ever in the history of this country. I won't say he can't declare martial law but I don't believe he would. If you tell people that the election is on hold there are going to be masses of people across the political spectrum extremely pissed off. Some people would die in all likelihood and it wouldn't take long until the troops are being attacked by civilians and are extremely demoralized because none of them signed up to shoot Americans. If he does that he might as well sign his own death warrant. As soon as he's removed from power the public would be demanding his execution.

I would say the Grant administration was just as bad if not worse, but I agree 100 percent.

Rohirrim
09-30-2008, 09:06 AM
I think the American people are so furious right now that if this lame duck twerp tried something like that the people would hit the streets. Believe me, Bush only wants to get out of Dodge before his malfeasance bears all of its fruit. The story of his life.

TailgateNut
09-30-2008, 09:13 AM
I think the American people are so furious right now that if this lame duck twerp tried something like that the people would hit the streets. Believe me, Bush only wants to get out of Dodge before his malfeasance bears all of its fruit. The story of his life.


He still wants to pull off the "heist of the century" before exiting "stage left".

alkemical
09-30-2008, 09:41 AM
Then by God we make them.

Make them? Make them? By what, using "votes" that they control?

snowspot66
09-30-2008, 09:50 AM
Shooting them. Which could very well happen if they try to put martial law into effect.

Garcia Bronco
09-30-2008, 10:04 AM
Shooting them. Which could very well happen if they try to put martial law into effect.

I didn't want to put that in writing. hile I give me paranoid friend a hard time, it doesn't mean I don't share his paranoid beliefs. :)

c_lazy_r
09-30-2008, 10:07 AM
I think the American people are so furious right now that if this lame duck twerp tried something like that the people would hit the streets. Believe me, Bush only wants to get out of Dodge before his malfeasance bears all of its fruit. The story of his life.

Furious, maybe. Unfortunately, most Americans lack the willingness and/or passion to endure the suffering that would take place in any kind of an uprising.

This isn't the same country that fought the Revolutionary War.

IMO, the government has purposely endorsed laziness and weakness to make sure we remain content little "sheep".

snowspot66
09-30-2008, 10:10 AM
I didn't want to put that in writing. hile I give me paranoid friend a hard time, it doesn't mean I don't share his paranoid beliefs. :)

The "they are watching us" crowd? :)

*disclaimer for those watching us* I'm not going to shoot anybody.

*second disclaimer* This is a Broncos board. Get back to work and stop watching us.

Rohirrim
09-30-2008, 10:11 AM
Furious, maybe. Unfortunately, most Americans lack the willingness and/or passion to endure the suffering that would take place in any kind of an uprising.

This isn't the same country that fought the Revolutionary War.

IMO, the government has purposely endorsed laziness and weakness to make sure we remain content little "sheep".

Believe me, take away people's TVs and you're talking massive revolution. "No more Survivor?" Arrrrrggggggh!

Garcia Bronco
09-30-2008, 10:12 AM
Furious, maybe. Unfortunately, most Americans lack the willingness and/or passion to endure the suffering that would take place in any kind of an uprising.

This isn't the same country that fought the Revolutionary War.

IMO, the government has purposely endorsed laziness and weakness to make sure we remain content little "sheep".

You underestimate your countrymen. Change your view. BE a leader. Inspire others.

c_lazy_r
09-30-2008, 10:13 AM
The "they are watching us" crowd? :)

*disclaimer for those watching us* I'm not going to shoot anybody.

But I heard Beerslug was though...;)

c_lazy_r
09-30-2008, 10:13 AM
You underestimate your countrymen. Change your view. BE a leader. Inspire others.

F'n A, I do.

c_lazy_r
09-30-2008, 10:15 AM
Believe me, take away people's TVs and you're talking massive revolution. "No more Survivor?" Arrrrrggggggh!

That's true. Didn't think about that. :notworthy

alkemical
09-30-2008, 10:35 AM
http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080919/REG/809199992

September 19, 2008, 9:30 AM EST
Post a Comment
Recommend


The Department of the Treasury announced today that for the next year, it will insure the holdings of any publicly offered eligible money market mutual fund that pays a fee to participate in the program.

The agency received approval from President Bush to use the assets of the Exchange Stabilization Fund.

The program may use up to $50 billion to guarantee the funds.

“Concerns about the net asset value of money market funds’ falling below $1 have exacerbated global financial market turmoil and caused severe liquidity strains in world markets,” the Treasury Department wrote in a statement.

Under the program, if a fund’s net asset value falls below $1, it will be notified that it has triggered the insurance program.

The Exchange Stabilization Fund was established by the Gold Reserve Act of 1934.

The act allows the secretary of the Treasury, with approval from the president, to “deal in gold, foreign exchange and other instruments of credit and securities” to promote international financial stability.

mhgaffney
09-30-2008, 11:57 AM
IMO, the creation of secret detention facilities here in the US, the black projects, the Whackahut private security forces, the Patriot Act, and the Bush presidential directives that have weakened the Constitution are all geared to manipulate and control the US population BASED ON PERCEIVED FOREIGN THREATS.

The US public has shown time and time again that it is vulnerable to this kind of manipulation -- via scare mongering about perceived foreign threats.

But the American people are NOT scared of Wall Street. No they are damn angry. I do not think the neo cons would dare to resort to martial law here -- because of unrest associated with this financial melt down.

No way can they get away with it. This would just piss off people -- even more.

And to answer Baja's point --- by blocking a bail out (i.e. a giveaway) NOW -- and forcing the crisis sooner rather than later -- we insure that Bush will be powerless to stage some new 9/11 or a war against Iran or some other scare scenario.

Truth now about Wall Street undercuts Bish and also forces the two presidential candidates to deal with the REAL issues (the fed, fraud and corruption here in the US) that our politicians have managed to dodge for so long.

This is why -- IF we succeed in blocking the bail out --I believe we will see both McCain and Obama suddenly modify their stated views on the bail out -- more in line with public opinion. They too -- after all -- must face the wrath of the electorate on Nov 4 -- or 7 -- or whenever the election happens.

In short, we now have a rare opportunity to dictate the terms of the debate -- and force the candidates to listen to the people. For once.

Let us not squander this rare chance.

MHG