Iraq Awards First Giant Oil Contract to... China

[Rohirrim]

Ha! I guess this is Iraq's way of saying, "Thanks, America!" Bush's presidency just gets better with age. :rofl:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/world/middleeast/29iraq.html

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ha! I guess this is Iraq's way of saying, "Thanks, America!" Bush's presidency just gets better with age. :rofl:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/world/middleeast/29iraq.html


First Bush invades the wrong country - then he helps grow the wrong country's economy.

And now the chimps who supported him the entire way want to place a beauty pageant bimbo who makes Bush look like a Rhodes Scholar a heartbeat away from the presidency?

Nuckin' futs! :crazy:

[Bronco Bob]

This is also where all the oil that McCain wants to drill will go to.
Oil is a commodity, it goes to the highest bidder. And China is
flush with money and jobs from all the Made In China stuff they
sell to us. So they get the jobs, the money, and now the oil
while the Repubs give the tax breaks to companies that export jobs.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

This is also where all the oil that McCain wants to drill will go to.
Oil is a commodity, it goes to the highest bidder. And China is
flush with money and jobs from all the Made In China stuff they
sell to us. So they get the jobs, the money, and now the oil
while the Repubs give the tax breaks to companies that export jobs.

Yep.

The bozos chanting "drill, baby drill" don't seem to understand that the Big Five are all multinational corporations who sell their products to the highest bidder on the global market (i.e., that "free market" the righties love so much.)

[spdirty]

ungrateful ****in bastards. Wish we would just TAKE their ****in oil. They owe us.

[Bronco Bob]

ungrateful ****in bastards. Wish we would just TAKE their ****in oil. They owe us.

Yep, let's just send the army in, overthrow the government, and put a puppet in charge. Hey, it worked in Iran. Well, at least for a while.

[Drek]

ungrateful ****in bastards. Wish we would just TAKE their ****in oil. They owe us.

I don't recall them ASKING us to invade.

If I came by your house and kicked in your front door, **** on your carpet, then sorta propped the door back up on my way out would you pay me?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I don't recall them ASKING us to invade.

If I came by your house and kicked in your front door, **** on your carpet, then sorta propped the door back up on my way out would you pay me?

Bingo.

Amazing how something this obvious is invariably lost on the average right-wingnut who suffers from EDD (Empathy Deficit Disorder.)

[elsid13]

it does not matter who the sell the oil to. It matter that they are able to INCREASE THE SUPPLY in the market. More Supply lowers the price.

[W*GS]

How much of the oil in the ground, ready to be drilled, is controlled not by corporations, but by governments, LABF? Give a percentage.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

House GOP Threatens Shutdown Over Drilling


WHAT!!! AND CUT OFF HALIBURTION’S BONUS STREAM FOR GOUGING OUR TROOPS!!!
HOW UNPATRIOTIC!!!
ANYONE REMEMBER WE ARE AT WAR?
PEOPLE ARE DYING OVER THERE FOLKS
AND THE GOP DOESN’T GIVE A DAMN!
House GOP Threatens Shutdown Over Drilling
http://www.truthout.org/article/house-gop-threatens-shutdown-over-drilling (http://www.truthout.org/article/house-gop-threatens-shutdown-over-drilling)
Coral Davenport, Congressional Quarterly: “House Republicans signaled Monday that they are ready to cut off government spending over the issue of offshore drilling, though the party’s Senate leader said he hopes to reach an energy deal and avoid a shutdown.” http://www.truthout.org/article/house-gop-threatens-shutdown-over-drilling

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

it does not matter who the sell the oil to. It matter that they are able to INCREASE THE SUPPLY in the market. More Supply lowers the price.

The price of crude oil is set by movements on the three major international petroleum exchanges (which are in turn driven by speculation.

As for speculation, there is ample evidence that the system is being manipulated.

According to MarketWatch:

“Speculative activity in commodity markets has grown "enormously" over the past several years, the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee said in a news release. It pointed out that in five years, from 2003 to 2008, investment in the index funds tied to commodities has grown by 20-fold -- to $260 billion from $13 billion.”

And here's a revealing clip from the testimony of Michael W. Masters of Masters Capital Management, LLC, who addressed the issue of “Commodities Speculation” before the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs this week:

“Today, Index Speculators are pouring billions of dollars into the commodities futures markets, speculating that commodity prices will increase. ...In the popular press the explanation given most often for rising oil prices is the increased demand for oil from China. According to the DOE, annual Chinese demand for petroleum has increased over the last five years from 1.88 billion barrels to 2.8 billion barrels, an increase of 920 million barrels.8 Over the same five-year period, Index Speculators' demand for petroleum futures has increased by 848 million barrels. THE INCREASE IN DEMAND FROM INDEX SPECULATORS IS ALMOST EQUAL TO THE INCREASE IN DEMAND FROM CHINA.

[Traveler]

LA,

We agree on many issues but I have to say the photo is wrong on so many levels. I agree with the point you're making but that photo distracts from the relevance of your point.

I know you don't have to, but please do me a favor and remove it.

[cutthemdown]

Big deal a 90 thousand barrel a day field? That's tiny, tiny, tiny and not worth getting upset about. Besides oil is falling like a rock and will be cheap as dirt in about another year. There is still plenty of oil fields left in Iraq. Chevron will get in on it I'm sure. Also I'm sure some European oil companies will also get a piece of the pie.

[The Lone Bolt]

I don't recall them ASKING us to invade.

If I came by your house and kicked in your front door, **** on your carpet, then sorta propped the door back up on my way out would you pay me?

And naturally we could expect an invitation from Saddam Hussein to overthrow his brutal dicatorship right?

Or are saying the people in Iraq had the free speech under Saddam's dicatorship to ask for an invasion to overthrow the SOB?

I think it's safe to say that many of Saddam's victims were praying that somebody somewhere would overthrow the bastard and bring him to justice. If I were in their position I wouldn't care less who it was.

[The Lone Bolt]

Big deal a 90 thousand barrel a day field? That's tiny, tiny, tiny and not worth getting upset about. Besides oil is falling like a rock and will be cheap as dirt in about another year. There is still plenty of oil fields left in Iraq. Chevron will get in on it I'm sure. Also I'm sure some European oil companies will also get a piece of the pie.

That's what I love about this whole thread. If a foreign country gets an oil contract in Iraq it's "proof" that the Iraqis hate the US because of the invasion.

If an American company gets such a contract it's "proof" that the war was "all about oil."

::)

[gyldenlove]

And naturally we could expect an invitation from Saddam Hussein to overthrow his brutal dicatorship right?

Or are saying the people in Iraq had the free speech under Saddam's dicatorship to ask for an invasion to overthrow the SOB?

I think it's safe to say that many of Saddam's victims were praying that somebody somewhere would overthrow the bastard and bring him to justice. If I were in their position I wouldn't care less who it was.

I think it's safe to say that many civil Iraqis are praying that somebody somewhere wouldn't have overthrown the bastard and brought him to justice. If I were in their position I wouldn't be happy with living in a country where suicide bombs are set off every day and people are gunned down in the streets at random.

Hell, Iraq is worse than Detroit or DC now.

[The Lone Bolt]

I think it's safe to say that many civil Iraqis are praying that somebody somewhere wouldn't have overthrown the bastard and brought him to justice. If I were in their position I wouldn't be happy with living in a country where suicide bombs are set off every day and people are gunned down in the streets at random.

Hell, Iraq is worse than Detroit or DC now.

Yes, I'm sure it was much better when everyone there was subject to random torture or watching as their mother or daughter was raped by baathist thugs in front of them. When they were forced to fight in the dictators endless, reckless wars of naked aggression. When even suggesting that the dictator was not a nice guy IN PRIVATE could get you endlessly tortured and your entire family "disappeared." When you could look forward to a weekend of your entire village dying horrible, excruciatingly painful deaths by toxic gas. When making any attempt to change things could get you fed feet-first into a meat grinder or immersed in a bath of undiluted sulfuric acid.

Yep, I'm sure many there pine for the "good old days" in Iraq. Things are much worse there now I'm sure. ::)

[TailgateNut]

Big deal a 90 thousand barrel a day field? That's tiny, tiny, tiny and not worth getting upset about. Besides oil is falling like a rock and will be cheap as dirt in about another year. There is still plenty of oil fields left in Iraq. Chevron will get in on it I'm sure. Also I'm sure some European oil companies will also get a piece of the pie.



Falling like a rock??? On which planet??? I watched price at the pump jump 26cents p gallon on friday. Must be one of those rubber rocks.

[BroncoBuff]

I don't recall them ASKING us to invade.

If I came by your house and kicked in your front door, **** on your carpet, then sorta propped the door back up on my way out would you pay me?
Yeah spdiry ... what should they be grateful for? Screwing their country up ten ways to Sunday and leaving them despised by the Saudis and at the mercy of Iran? Millions of Iraqis are maimed, dead and displaced ... I kinda doubt they're gonna line up to thank us.

[BroncoBuff]

Yes, I'm sure it was much better when everyone there was subject to random torture or watching as their mother or daughter was raped by baathist thugs in front of them. When they were forced to fight in the dictators endless, reckless wars of naked aggression. When even suggesting that the dictator was not a nice guy IN PRIVATE could get you endlessly tortured and your entire family "disappeared." When you could look forward to a weekend of your entire village dying horrible, excruciatingly painful deaths by toxic gas. When making any attempt to change things could get you fed feet-first into a meat grinder or emersed in a bath of undiluted sulfuric acid.

Yep, I'm sure many there pine for the "good old days" in Iraq. Things are much worse there now I'm sure. ::)
Things are ten million times worse now ... that's not an opinion, it's a fact. I'm surprised you don't know that.

[The Lone Bolt]

Things are ten million times worse now ... that's not an opinion, it's a fact. I'm surprised you don't know that.

"Worse" is a subjective judgment. You can't call it a "fact."

And what do you base your opinion on? Have you ever been there either during the Saddam Hussein regime or recently? Do you know anyone who has? Any research to back up your claim?

[Garcia Bronco]

"Worse" is a subjective judgment. You can't call it a "fact."

And what do you base your opinion on? Have you ever been there either during the Saddam Hussien regime or recently? Do you know anyone who has? Any research to back up your claim?

No. Brother Broncobuff has not.

[Drek]

And naturally we could expect an invitation from Saddam Hussein to overthrow his brutal dicatorship right?

Or are saying the people in Iraq had the free speech under Saddam's dicatorship to ask for an invasion to overthrow the SOB?

I think it's safe to say that many of Saddam's victims were praying that somebody somewhere would overthrow the bastard and bring him to justice. If I were in their position I wouldn't care less who it was.

So I'm guessing you believe that we were welcomed with parades and flower bouquets as liberators, hmm?

Doesn't really look like that to me.

[BroncoBuff]

"Worse" is a subjective judgment. You can't call it a "fact."

And what do you base your opinion on? Have you ever been there either during the Saddam Hussein regime or recently? Do you know anyone who has? Any research to back up your claim?
Research? No research required for one plus one. Even the Bush adminisration would not seriously say the Iraqi society is more stable and productive than before the invasion. I think you two (Garcia) should really do your own research on what a stable and smoothly running society Iraq was before 2003, and especially before 1991. Again, that's not an opinion, that's just fact. They were the most modern and progressive of Arab states - women had significantly more rights than in any other Arab country, and their economy and society were modern and ran quite smoothly. Sure, Sadaam and his sons were pigs and they treated the Kurds horribly, even genocidally. But pointing to specific instances of Saddam's horrible actions and extrapoliting that conduct society-wide is just silly. I would've expected more from you.

Be honest .... you have no idea what Iraqi society was like before 1991, just admit it. Your posts are nothing more than flag-draped indignance that they are "ungrateful bastards," and they should be "happy we invaded them." Just admit it.

[W*GS]

A Saddam apologist.

Interesting.

[cutthemdown]

Falling like a rock??? On which planet??? I watched price at the pump jump 26cents p gallon on friday. Must be one of those rubber rocks.

have you seen the oil futures? It may take awhile for gas to come down but oil has dropped, and will keep dropping.

It's the mortgage mess that is cause for concern not the oil companies.

[The Lone Bolt]

Research? No research required for one plus one. Even the Bush adminisration would not seriously say the Iraqi society is more stable and productive than before the invasion. I think you two (Garcia) should really do your own research on what a stable and smoothly running society Iraq was before 2003, and especially before 1991. Again, that's not an opinion, that's just fact. They were the most modern and progressive of Arab states - women had significantly more rights than in any other Arab country, and their economy and society were modern and ran quite smoothly. Sure, Sadaam and his sons were pigs and they treated the Kurds horribly, even genocidally. But pointing to specific instances of Saddam's horrible actions and extrapoliting that conduct society-wide is just silly. I would've expected more from you.

Be honest .... you have no idea what Iraqi society was like before 1991, just admit it. Your posts are nothing more than flag-draped indignance that they are "ungrateful bastards," and they should be "happy we invaded them." Just admit it.



Nazi Germany was a stable society too. You are the one with no clue here. Do some homework on Saddam's brutal dictatorship and get back to me.

[The Lone Bolt]

A Saddam apologist.

Interesting.

:yep:

[TDmvp]

Watch Baghdad High on Hbo , and watch how the old people act , and more important watch the old females ... they hated Saddam and life under him , and are willing to go through the tough times that is happening now IF it leads to something even close to a better life ...

And Buff saying just because someone disagrees with you they obviously are clueless on the subject sounds like something the hard left on the Mane would say , and i don't know you to act like that much , what gives ???

[BroncoBuff]

You obviously didn't read my posts if you think I'm a Saddam apologist, but based on your weak grasp of the realities in Iraq, I'm not surprised you didn't read my posts ... there's obviously lots of stuff you haven't read. But I am glad Lone Bolt agrees with me now ... "Nazi Germany was a stable society too." By saying "too," you acknowledge Iraq was stable before 2003, and especially before 1991. Thank you.


Kinda sad that when you guys disagree with me (and with reality), you say I'm pro-Saddam and you raise the Nazi flag ... you guys are more predictable than the weather, I'll give you that! ROFL!

[BroncoBuff]

And Buff saying just because someone disagrees with you they obviously are clueless on the subject sounds like something the hard left on the Mane would say , and i don't know you to act like that much , what gives ???
There's no "agreeing" or "disagreeing," because you cannot "agree" or "disagree with facts. And if you don't know the facts, you are by definition clueless, at least on that topic. I'm not winning any kind of argument here ... it's not even a partisan issue. I'm merely trying to clear up the misunderstanding that Iraq is better off today than before we invaded them. That is clearly wrong from a factual basis ... in fact, it's a laughable notion.

Do you guys have any real idea how bad things are in Iraq right now? THIS IS NOT AN OPINION. There are millions of refugees, hundreds of thousands dead, maimed, displaced, and missing. Huge swaths of cities - once peaceful and productive - are uninhabitable now - lawless, violent places. Electricity runs only an hour or two a day, and there is little or no law enforcement. A year and a half ago, Time Magazine ran a cover shot of Baghdad with the caption "Life in Hell." And remember less than a year ago when McCain walked through that Baghdad market with a platoon of armed security surrounding him and helicopters overhead? That very market shut down completely later that week. They regularly find graves with dozens of maimed bodies. Things are marginally better now, less than a year later, but it nowhere near the orderly society we invaded.

Iraq before the invasion, and especialy before 1991, was a modernized nation, or modernized at least compared to other Arab countries. Internet friendly, modernized and productive, with a stable rule of law. Women were treated as equals, and their education system was efective. The reason why this is true is because Saddam was an entirely secular leader. A rotten SOB who routinely tortured and murdered, and genocidally gassed the Kurds (me being an apologist again :oyvey:) but at least he didn't subject citizens to stone-age religious dogma and backward Islamic societal structures.

As bad as Saddam was, Iraq was without any doubt, and beyond any opinion, the most modernized and smoothly run Arab nation before we invaded, and especialy before 1991. To argue Iraqi society is "better off now" is foolish to the n'th degree.

[mhgaffney]

Be assured -- the neo cons are seething over the announcement.

On the face of it --

This looks like the Iraqi leadership asserting its independence over Washington.

The whole point of ther war (from the standpoint of ther neo cons) was to gain control over Iraq's oil.

As former NSA chief and 3 star Gen William Odum pointed out in 2005 -- Bush's invasion of Iraq was the greatest strategic blunder in US history.

This latest only underscores the neo cons' collosal failure. They set up an Iraqi government that was supposed to be a US puppet. But the Iraqis' hatred and distrust of the US is so great -- the neo cons could even accomplish this much. They failed again.

Everything they have touched has turned to ****...

The American people must now assert leadership over our nation's foreign policy. We must insist that our government STOP building military bases in Iraq. Bring the troops home, instead. Now!

We must also prosecute the criminals who are responsible for this horrible war policy -- a crime against the people of Iraq -- and the planet.

MHG

[BroncoBuff]

Ha! I guess this is Iraq's way of saying, "Thanks, America!" Bush's presidency just gets better with age. :rofl:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/world/middleeast/29iraq.html
But I thought Iraqi oil would pay for the invasion?!

We should write a musical play .... Sing it wth me!

"It's the law ...
of un-in-tended consequences!"

"Unintended?"
"Unforeseen!"

"Unintended?"
"Unforeseen!"
Kinda hard to hold these guys to normal adult standards of competence. The Bushco guys are developmentally disabled ... Bush, Wolfowitz and Rummy will undoubtedly ride the short bus of history ... this sale to China is just the latest confirmation of how stupid they are.

[W*GS]

As bad as Saddam was, Iraq was without any doubt, and beyond any opinion, the most modernized and smoothly run Arab nation before we invaded, and especialy before 1991. To argue Iraqi society is "better off now" is foolish to the n'th degree.

You're a Saddam apologist.

[BroncoBuff]

You're a Saddam apologist.
You got me, sheriff.

[Bronco Bob]

Nazi Germany was a stable society too. You are the one with no clue here. Do some homework on Saddam's brutal dictatorship and get back to me.

Well, to be honest, no one really cared what Nazi Germany was doing
inside of their own country. It wasn't until Nazi Germany started
attacking its neighbors until anyone did anything about it.
And it wasn't until we in the US declared war on Japan and
Nazi Germany in turn declared was on us that the US even bothered
to get involved.
Now it's true that Saddam did invade Kuwait, but that's what the
first gulf war was all about and after that Saddam was being held
in check, so unless and until Saddam once again attacked a neighbor
there was no legitimate reason to invade Iraq.

[Bronco Bob]

You're a Saddam apologist.

And you think the House of Saud is significantly better?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

<center> http://www.bartcop.com/crude-relationship.jpg
</center>

[TailgateNut]

have you seen the oil futures? It may take awhile for gas to come down but oil has dropped, and will keep dropping.

It's the mortgage mess that is cause for concern not the oil companies.


AHH YES, as McCain says: The Economy is :strong: .


The stupidity is amazing!

[baja]

Yeah spdiry ... what should they be grateful for? Screwing their country up ten ways to Sunday and leaving them despised by the Saudis and at the mercy of Iran? Millions of Iraqis are maimed, dead and displaced ... I kinda doubt they're gonna line up to thank us.

I hear those roses are back ordered.

[TailgateNut]

I hear those roses are back ordered.

The Taliban thought we wanted Poppy, so they are busy harvesting in Afghanistan.;)

[The Lone Bolt]

Buff, you are in fact a Saddam apologist whether you realize it or not.

And when's the last time you personally have been to Iraq?

It is clear also that you have no idea how bad things were there when Saddam was in power. You are minimizing and downplaying the lawlessness that existed in his society -- not by random thugs on the street but by the ruling regime itself. You are also exaggerating the state of Saddam's infrastructure before the invasion. Only Sunni areas got electricity 24/7. The rest of the country got little or none.

I could go on but your ignorance is so staggering it would take all day to correct you.

[W*GS]

And you think the House of Saud is significantly better?

Hunh?

[BroncoBuff]

Buff, you are in fact a Saddam apologist whether you realize it or not.

And when's the last time you personally have been to Iraq?

It is clear also that you have no idea how bad things were there when Saddam was in power. You are minimizing and downplaying the lawlessness that existed in his society -- not by random thugs on the street but by the ruling regime itself. You are also exaggerating the state of Saddam's infrastructure before the invasion. Only Sunni areas got electricity 24/7. The rest of the country got little or none.

I could go on but your ignorance is so staggering it would take all day to correct you.
Sounds like you agree with me (the substance of your post anyway, not your insults :~ohyah!:)

As I understand your post then, you believe a person must actually VISIT Iraq to understand it? That's a pretty high bar to set there, Usain. You sure you wanna throw down that gauntlet?

[BroncoBuff]

Buff, you are in fact a Saddam apologist whether you realize it or not.
Really? Tell me some more things I don't realize about myself.


This thread is the one of the best examples of the apologist right ... arguing that Iraqi society is better off now than before we invaded unprovoked. An absurd argument beyond all reality, and plainly false. But - simply because the argument in some manner shows support for Bushco - these guys will rationalize that black is white, and up is down, Buff loves Saddam, and Buff respects the Nazis ROFL!

The sad part is that Usain Bolt here has actually agreed with me, and with reality, twice now that Iraqi society really was better off before the invasion. He just couches his agreements: "yeah but (nazis)/(you love saddam)". :~ohyah!:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

This thread is the one of the best examples of the apologist right ... arguing that Iraqi society is better off now than before we invaded unprovked. An absurd argument beyond all reality, and plainly false. But - simply because the argument in some manner shows support for Bushco - these guys will rationalize that black is white, and up is down, I love Saddam, and I respect the Nazis ROFL!


The sad part is that Usain Bolt here has actually agreed with me, and with reality, twice now that Iraqi society really was better off before the invasion. He just couches his agreements: "yeah but (nazis)/(you love saddam)". :~ohyah!:

The convoluted thinking and cognitive dissonance in which these bozos engage in order to cover the Smirking Pinhead's flank is absolutely staggering.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I could go on but your ignorance is so staggering it would take all day to correct you.

Translation:

"I can't refute any of the factual assertions in the following post:"

There's no "agreeing" or "disagreeing," because you cannot "agree" or "disagree with facts. And if you don't know the facts, you are by definition clueless, at least on that topic. I'm not winning any kind of argument here ... it's not even a partisan issue. I'm merely trying to clear up the misunderstanding that Iraq is better off today than before we invaded them. That is clearly wrong from a factual basis ... in fact, it's a laughable notion.

Do you guys have any real idea how bad things are in Iraq right now? THIS IS NOT AN OPINION. There are millions of refugees, hundreds of thousands dead, maimed, displaced, and missing. Huge swaths of cities - once peaceful and productive - are uninhabitable now - lawless, violent places. Electricity runs only an hour or two a day, and there is little or no law enforcement. A year and a half ago, Time Magazine ran a cover shot of Baghdad with the caption "Life in Hell." And remember less than a year ago when McCain walked through that Baghdad market with a platoon of armed security surrounding him and helicopters overhead? That very market shut down completely later that week. They regularly find graves with dozens of maimed bodies. Things are marginally better now, less than a year later, but it nowhere near the orderly society we invaded.

Iraq before the invasion, and especialy before 1991, was a modernized nation, or modernized at least compared to other Arab countries. Internet friendly, modernized and productive, with a stable rule of law. Women were treated as equals, and their education system was efective. The reason why this is true is because Saddam was an entirely secular leader. A rotten SOB who routinely tortured and murdered, and genocidally gassed the Kurds (me being an apologist again :oyvey:) but at least he didn't subject citizens to stone-age religious dogma and backward Islamic societal structures.

As bad as Saddam was, Iraq was without any doubt, and beyond any opinion, the most modernized and smoothly run Arab nation before we invaded, and especialy before 1991. To argue Iraqi society is "better off now" is foolish to the n'th degree.

[BroncoBuff]

The convoluted thinking and cognitive dissonance in which these bozos engage in order to cover the Smirking Pinhead's flank is absolutely staggering.
Isn't it amazing the lengths they go to? And I hadn't thought Lone Bolt was really that far off the ranch.

But apparently:
You have to visit Iraq in person to know
He agrees with me that the electricity worked better, at least for the Sunnis
He agrees Iraqi society was more stable pre-invasion, but "so was Nazi Germany"
He believes that stating Iraqi society was more stable pre-invasion (a fact) is pro-Saddam
He says I have "no idea" how bad things were before - the implication being he does
He agrees with me, but says my "ignorance is staggering" :~ohyah!:

Calling somebody who states plain facts - black is black and white is white facts - a "Saddam apologist" is the worst form of Internet discussion ... it's a close cousin to the idiot politicians (of both parties) who call their opponents Nazis when they run out of real facts and arguments.

Congratulations Usain, you've bottomed out :thumbs:

[W*GS]

BroncoBuff's comments remind me of those Russian "babushka" and other geezers who get nostalgic over Stalin. Sure, there was the gulag, but the country was stable and modernizing.

Jeane Kirkpatrick would be proud of the rationalizations you're giving us, BroncoBuff.

[The Lone Bolt]

Sounds like you agree with me (the substance of your post anyway, not your insults :~ohyah!:)

As I understand your post then, you believe a person must actually VISIT Iraq to understand it? That's a pretty high bar to set there, Usain. You sure you wanna throw down that gauntlet?

You are claiming you know everything about Iraq, like you've been ther personally. You're 100% absolutely sure things are "Ten MILLION times worse" there even though, as far as I know, you have no direct knowledge of life in Iraq during the Sadam regime or presently.

And the evidence suggests that you are wrong, to wit:

Survey finds hope in occupied Iraq
Men in Baghdad
A lack of jobs is one of the most immediate problems in Iraq
An opinion poll suggests most Iraqis feel their lives have improved since the war in Iraq began about a year ago.

The survey, carried out for the BBC and other broadcasters, also suggests many are optimistic about the next 12 months and opposed to violence.

But of the 2,500 people questioned, 85% said the restoration of public security must be a major priority.

Opinion was split about who should be responsible, with an Iraqi government scoring highest.

Creating job opportunities was rated more likely to improve security effectively than hiring more police.

Iraqi opinion poll:
Key results of the survey

More details

However on various issues, there were stark differences of opinion according to region or ethnic group.

About 6,000 interviews were carried out in total, half in Autumn last year and half this Spring, in a project run by Oxford Research International.

Seventy per cent of people said that things were going well or quite well in their lives, while only 29% felt things were bad.

And 56% said that things were better now than they were before the war. (that's a majority of Iraqis pilgrim. You know, the people who actually live there?)

Th poll company's director Dr Christoph Sahm, said Iraqis trained as interviewers travelled around the country to speak to randomly selected people in their homes.

The survey reflected Iraq's distribution of population, balance between men and women, and religious and ethnic mix.


HAVE YOUR SAY
The voice of the people of Iraq has been heard and we should respect that
Gary Maddox, Chicago, US

Hope on streets of Baghdad
Dr Sahm said: "I would call it very extensive; It is a national survey and it is also representative... the key finding is that Iraqis don't want to break up the country."

Meanwhile, an ICM poll of British attitudes about the Iraq war for BBC Newsnight's special programme, One Year On - Iraq, reveals that 48% of those questioned thought taking military action was the right thing to do; 43% thought it was not.

There is an almost even split on whether the war was legal, while 34% of interviewees believe the war has contributed to the security of the UK against 55% who believe it has not.

US 'will take heart'

In the poll of Iraqis, nearly 80% favoured a unified state with a central government in Baghdad; only 14% opted for a system of regional governments combined with a federal authority.


BRITISH OPINION POLL
Soldiers capture a man

British views of the war

The majority was even bigger among Iraqi Arabs, but for the Kurdish minority, the situation was reversed, with more than 70% backing a federal system.

There is an existing Kurdish regional government in the north, the powers of which were recognised by Iraq's interim constitution, signed last week.

BBC diplomatic correspondent Barnaby Mason says the American and British governments will take some comfort from the results.

The survey shows overwhelming disapproval of political violence, especially of attacks on the Iraqi police but also on American and other coalition forces.

But among Arabs, nearly one in five told the pollsters that attacks on coalition forces were acceptable.

About 15% say foreign forces should leave Iraq now, but many more say they should stay until an Iraqi government is in place or security is restored.

Looking back, more Iraqis think the invasion was right than wrong, although 41% felt that the invasion "humiliated Iraq".

But by ethnicity, only one in three Arabs believed their country was liberated - compared to four out of five Kurds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

W*GS to his boyfriend's rescue.

Who says chivalry is dead?

:D

[alkemical]

W*GS to his boyfriend's rescue.

Who says chivalry is dead?

:D

Straight Women. Ha!

[BroncoBuff]

Lone Bone-Head, that survey was just ONE YEAR after the invasion! :~ohyah!:

C'mon, Usain ... let's drop this thing. It's not even a partisan or policy/issues debate. It's a simple statement of fact, I don't think Bushco even would agree with you. Iraqi society and infrastructure are in absolute shambles, period. It's not a question of opinion. We disagree ... granted, you disagree with the facts, but let's just drop this.

[The Lone Bolt]

Lone Bone-Head, that survey was just ONE YEAR after the invasion! :~ohyah!:

C'mon, Usain ... let's drop this thing. It's not even a partisan or policy/issues debate. It's a simple statement of fact, I don't think Bushco even would agree with you. Iraqi society and infrastructure are in absolute shambles, period. It's not a question of opinion. We disagree ... granted, you disagree with the facts, but let's just drop this.

The infrastructure was in shambles before the war. You just don't get that. Your BS about how "advanced" Iraq was under Saddam is pure ignorance.

And you have done nothing to prove that things are "TEN MILLION times worse" in Iraq than under Saddam. Hell, you have done nothing to prove that most Iraqis think things are worse to any degree.

And as for the survey, if you don't like that one here's one more recent:

March 18, 2007
Iraqis: life is getting better
Marie Colvin

MOST Iraqis believe life is better for them now than it was under Saddam Hussein, according to a British opinion poll published today.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1530762.ece

So if life is "TEN MILLION times worse" than it was under Saddam, how do you explain these surveys?

[W*GS]

Of course LABF has to get in a slam - after all, BroncoBuff is doing for Saddam what LABF has done for Chavez.

Apologize for dictators.

[alkemical]

Of course LABF has to get in a slam - after all, BroncoBuff is doing for Saddam what LABF has done for Chavez.

Apologize for dictators.



At least you only have one guy to blame ;)

[BroncoBuff]

Of course LABF has to get in a slam - after all, BroncoBuff is doing for Saddam what LABF has done for Chavez.

Apologize for dictators.
Yup, I'm a Saddam apologist ... clearly visible from my posts in this thread:

Saddam was a secular leader, and a rotten SOB who routinely tortured and murdered, and genocidally gassed the Kurds
Sadaam and his sons were pigs and they treated the Kurds horribly, even genocidally. But pointing to specific instances of Saddam's horrible actions and extrapoliting that conduct society-wide is just silly.

If you don't have an argument worthy of notice, call your opponent a nazi! :thumbsup:

[W*GS]

As bad as Saddam was, Iraq was without any doubt, and beyond any opinion, the most modernized and smoothly run Arab nation before we invaded, and especialy before 1991.

That's apologia.

Like I said, Jeane Kirkpatrick would be proud of your rationalizations.

[BroncoBuff]

The infrastructure was in shambles before the war. You just don't get that. Your BS about how "advanced" Iraq was under Saddam is pure ignorance.

And you have done nothing to prove that things are "TEN MILLION times worse" in Iraq than under Saddam. Hell, you have done nothing to prove that most Iraqis think things are worse to any degree.

And as for the survey, if you don't like that one here's one more recent:



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1530762.ece

So if life is "TEN MILLION times worse" than they were under Saddam, how do you explain these surveys?
These are just opinion-surveys. I'm glad they're optimistic, but their opinions about their future are not what we're talking about, nobody said "they're more optimistic" now. Usain, millions are dead, missing and displaced, electricity maybe an hour a day if at all, sewers non-functional, no rule of law, and civil wars that have abated these last 9 months because US taxpayers are paying the militias to keep the cease-fires. And calling me "ignorant" does more than just make you look bad, it also cheapens your argument (such that it is an argument).


This part of your article is more relevant to my point than citizens' optimism ... please read closely, it's worse than even I had thought:
One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. In Baghdad, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad.

That is horrible - even unthinkable. And much, much worse (no duh) than before we invaded unprovoked.

I'm done with this topic.

[The Lone Bolt]

These are just opinion-surveys. I'm glad they're optimistic, but their opinions about their future are not what we're talking about, nobody said "they're more optimistic" now. Usain, millions are dead, missing and displaced, electricity maybe an hour a day if at all, sewers non-functional, no rule of law, and civil wars that have abated these last 9 months because US taxpayers are paying the militias to keep the cease-fires. And calling me "ignorant" does more than just make you look bad, it also cheapens your argument (such that it is an argument).


This part of your article is more relevant to my point than citizens' optimism ... please read closely, it's worse than even I had thought:


That is horrible - even unthinkable. And much, much worse (no duh) than before we invaded unprovoked.

I'm done with this topic.

Umm . . . yeah. "Just" opinions of people who actually live in Iraq. You who have never been there however know much more than they do, right? They are TEN MILLION times worse off no matter what the ACTUAL RESIDENTS OF IRAQ are saying?::)

You are making a complete fool of yourself. No wonder you want to quit before you dig yourself deeper.

And yes, it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about re: the state of Iraq under Saddam. Thus you are ignorant on the subject.

[gyldenlove]

Umm . . . yeah. "Just" opinions of people who actually live in Iraq. You who have never been there however know much more than they do, right? They are TEN MILLION times worse off no matter what the ACTUAL RESIDENTS OF IRAQ are saying?::)

You are making a complete fool of yourself. No wonder you want to quit before you dig yourself deeper.

And yes, it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about re: the state of Iraq under Saddam. Thus you are ignorant on the subject.

It is not hard to know more than Iraqis, few who live outside urban centers have access to electricity, phone lines, newspapers or any other halfway decent outlet of reliable information.

More civilians die now, than during the Saddam regime.

[The Lone Bolt]

It is not hard to know more than Iraqis, few who live outside urban centers have access to electricity, phone lines, newspapers or any other halfway decent outlet of reliable information.

More civilians die now, than during the Saddam regime.

These statements are so patently ludicrous I won't even bother with a counterargument.

[BroncoBuff]

LEARN, dammit ... LEARN!

Prior to the arrival of U.S. forces, Iraqi women were free to go wherever they wish and wear whatever they like. The 1970 Iraqi constitution, gave Iraqi women equity and liberty unmatched in the Muslim World. But since the U.S. invasion, Iraqi women’s rights have fallen to the lowest level in Iraq’s history. Under the new U.S.-crafted constitution, which will be put to referendum on the 15 October while the bloodbath mounts each day, women’s rights will be oppressed and the role of women in Iraqi society will be curtailed and relegated to the caring for “children and the elderly”.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=1054


As Iraqis prepare to go into another horribly hot Summer, literally and politically, many people are losing hope, or desperately express a paradoxical longing for the days of Saddam's dictatorship. At least—some would say—then there was enough drinking water, electricity for air conditioning, and security. Today, there is very little water to drink, no electricity, and a lot of death. What could be worse than a military dictatorship? It is what the Iraqis live under today. Iraq, ironically, is being invaded by mobile phones, used computers, and satellite television receivers; but, there is no electricity to run these devices. So much for the post-industrial information age
http://www.salon.com/2005/3125iraq_firsthand.html



(August 2007 article) As recently as July, electricity was supplied in the capital for less than one hour per day. Having all but given up on electricity and clean water, Baghdad residents are spending their funds on "bare necessities," namely food and cell phones. Unable to run refrigerators, Iraqis have reverted to iceboxes; a block of ice lasts a day or two. "They don't go out to eat, or entertain," Alamin says of her Baghdad contacts. "The only time they leave their homes is to go to their jobs or to the market to buy what they need, walking distance from where they live." No civilian goes out at night except in an emergency. Al-Khakani notes that "even standing in line for gas is dangerous." And medicine is practically beyond the reach of the average Iraqi. "God forbid somebody gets sick and needs health care," Thamir says. "You are told at the hospital that you need to bring gauze, bandages, syringes. You have to go get it and bring it back before the patient dies."
http://www.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=13974


Since the US invasion and occupation of Iraq every aspect of life in Iraq has deteriorated. A new report released to the UN Human Rights Commission found that malnutrition among Iraqi children under the age of 5 years have doubled to nearly 8 percent since the US invasion of Iraq as a result of lack of clean water, food, and adequate sanitation. The report is supported by previous studies of the crisis in Iraq since the Occupation. It has been well documented and reported that since the early 1970s; Iraq had one of the best national health-care systems in the Middle East. Iraq boasted a modern social infrastructure with a first-class range of health-care facilities, and the Iraqi people enjoyed one of the highest standards of living in the Middle East. Iraq had used its oil revenues, which accounted for 60% of its gross domestic product (GDP), to build a modern health-care system with large Western-style hospitals and modern technology. Iraqi medical and nursing schools attracted students from throughout the Middle East, and many Iraqi doctors were trained in Europe or the USA. Primary health-care services reached about 97% of the urban population and 78% of the rural population in 1990. But the wars and more than 13 years of US-Britain sponsored genocidal sanctions have left the country's economy and infrastructure in ruins.[/B]

According to the World Health Organisation (WHO), "Iraq had a modern sanitary infrastructure with an extensive network of water-purification and sewage-treatment systems. Water networks distributed clean, safe water to 95% of the urban population and to 75% of those in rural areas. In 1990, Iraq was ranked 50th out of 130 countries on the UNDP Human Development Index, which measures national achievements in health, education, and per capita GDP".

http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-hassan020405.htm


Former Ambassador Peter Galbraith says President George W. Bush was unaware that there were two major sects of Islam just two months before the President ordered troops to invade Iraq, RAW STORY (http://rawstory.com/) has learned. Galbraith, the son of the late economist John Kenneth Galbraith, claims that American leadership knew very little about the nature of Iraqi society and the problems it would face after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

Galbraith reports that the three of them spent some time explaining to Bush that there are two different sects in Islam--to which the President allegedly responded, “I thought the Iraqis were Muslims!” :~ohyah!:
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Ambassador_claims_shortly_before_invasion_Bush_080 4.html


In 2001-2002, Iraqi society showed some improvements. Infrastructure was repaired and investments in Iraq's economy started to grow. Access to hospital treatment has improved. But the US War of 2003 and the Occupation have returned the country to the genocidal years and left Iraq's economy and infrastructure in ruins. A detailed study by the British-based charity organisation (Medact) revealed "[t]he health of the Iraqi people has deteriorated since the 2003 invasion. The 2003 war not only created the conditions for further health decline, but also damaged the ability of Iraqi society to reverse it".

http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-hassan020405.htm

LEARN dammit!

[Rohirrim]

LEARN, dammit ... LEARN!


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=1054



http://www.salon.com/2005/3125iraq_firsthand.html




http://www.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=13974



http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-hassan020405.htm



http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Ambassador_claims_shortly_before_invasion_Bush_080 4.html



http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-hassan020405.htm

LEARN dammit!

Almost makes me think we should not have invaded Iraq and instead should have gone after the people who actually attacked us on 911. Weird.

[TailgateNut]

LEARN, dammit ...


LEARN dammit!


:thumbs:

[The Lone Bolt]

Buff,

Nobody said things in Iraq are ideal. But to haul out a bunch of editorials which emphasize the negative while completely ignoring the opinions of Iraqis themselves (and inventing ridiculous rationalizations to do so) is not proving that things are now TEN MILLION times worse than under Saddam.

I could easily find opinion pieces that emphasize the positives which would also prove nothing.

But surveys of people who live there, now that's unbiased and meaningful evidence. And from what I can see the surveys don't support your opinions.

You must also remember that the state of infrastructure doesn't tell the whole story. Your sources neglect the fact that Iraqis now have the freedom to express their views and critcize their government, to come and go as they please, to a free press, to not be tortured by government thugs, etc. I guarantee these things are also taken into account by the Iraqi people, which acounts for the fact that when surveyed they still think life is better than under Saddam despite the issues with electricity, water, etc.

You are only empahsizing the negative and neglecting the positives.

[BroncoBuff]

I could easily find opinion pieces that emphasize the positive which would also prove nothing.
They're not "opinions," they're facts. Iraqi society was flourishing before 2003 and especially before 1991. Since then, it has been reduced to rubble and is a shambles. Period.

[The Lone Bolt]

They're not "opinions," they're facts. Iraqi society was flourishing before 2003 and especially before 1991. Since then, it has been reduced to rubble and is a shambles. Period.

:bs:

These are opinion pieces which cherry pick the facts, nothing more. You are overstating your case based on biased sources.

And Iraq was by no means "flourishing". They lived under the opressive boot of a mad, sadistic dicator. That's your idea of a "flourishing" society?:kiddingme

Furthermore if I had the time today I could dig up examples of how Saddam let Iraqi infrastructure go to hell while he spent billions on himself building massive palaces, yachts, etc.

[ScottXray]

"You must also remember that the state of infrastructure doesn't tell the whole story. Your sources neglect the fact that Iraqis now have the freedom to express their views and critcize their government, to come and go as they please, to a free press, to not be tortured by government thugs, etc. I guarantee these things are also taken into account by the poeple there which acounts for the fact that when surveyed they still think life is better than under Saddam despite the issues with electricity, water, etc."

Youré right...the Iraquis no longer have to deal with the government doing that to them...Its the car bombs , religious fanatics clearing entire neighborhoods and areas of either Sunni or Shia via murder and intimidation.They are probably much happier now.

Meanwhile WE are much better off than before. Except for the government thugs in Guantanamo, the capitualtion of the press to the ratings and entertainment industry, the illegal and unfettered wiretapping of our public, the loss of habeas corpus and the politicisation of our justice department, the economy near financial collapse while the price of everything keeps going up and the dollar buying less and less, things are just PEACHY!

Is it a coincidence that the group that brought the Iraquis such a boon, is the same one that has done so much for US?

:wave:

[BroncoBuff]

:bs:

These are opinion pieces which cherry pick the facts, nothing more. You are overstating your case based on biased sources.
It's obvious you don't know when you're beat. Most of those sources were statistics, not opinions, and they reflect the uncntrovertable truth that Iraq is in shambles now ... in fact, this is not even an issue for which any serious person would defend your position. Even George W. Bush wouldn't stoop to claiming Iraq is in better shape now than before we invaded unprovoked. Read this closely, nobody but NOBODY disputes these facts: Millions dead, displaced, missing and refugees in Jordan, Syria, And Saudi Arabia. Electricity runs maybe one hour a day, the infrastructure is in shambles, no clean water, damaged sewage systems and electricity running maybe an hour a day."

But this thread long ago ceased to be a discussion of facts ... you're just obsessed with me and the simple way in which I stated a fact that runs counter to your little mind's rosy view of "The New Iraq." Fine ... then join the battle. No more "opinion polls," no more anecdotal stories about Saddam's atrocities, make your case with facts:

Show me sources that claim Iraqis and their quality of life is better now than before we invaded.


That oughta end this whole thing. But then again, I said that before ::) hmmm...

[The Lone Bolt]

It's obvious you don't know when you're beat. Most of those sources were statistics, not opinions, and they reflect the uncntrovertable truth that Iraq is in shambles now ... in fact, this is not even an issue for which any serious person would defend your position. Even George W. Bush wouldn't stoop to claiming Iraq is in better shape now than before we invaded unprovoked. Read this closely, nobody but NOBODY disputes these facts: Millions dead, displaced, missing and refugees in Jordan, Syria, And Saudi Arabia. Electricity runs maybe one hour a day, the infrastructure is in shambles, no clean water, damaged sewage systems and electricity running maybe an hour a day."

But this thread long ago ceased to be a discussion of facts ... you're just obsessed with me and the simple way in which I stated a fact that runs counter to your little mind's rosy view of "The New Iraq." Fine ... then join the battle. No more "opinion polls," no more anecdotal stories about Saddam's atrocities, make your case with facts:

Show me sources that claim Iraqis and their quality of life is better now than before we invaded.


That oughta end this whole thing. But then again, I said that before ::) hmmm...



Unfortunately you have me at a disadvantage. I only debate this stuff at work and not in my spare time, and today the phones are ringing off the hook so I have no time to research. I do know that YOUR rosey assessment of Saddam's Iraq is pure BS.

And I never said that things are better, only that you have failed to prove things are TEN MILLION TIMES worse. And you continue to ignore that the wonderful "statistics" you cite are cherry-picked by biased sources as part of opionion pieces with the objective to create a negative impression. There is plenty of positive news that you and you op-ed pieces ignore.

[BroncoBuff]

Okay ... maybe I can see your office from here... I'm on the 13th floor at 2nd and Pike, facing southwest and southeast. I can see most of Elliott Bay, there's a Hanjin freighter parked at the dock offloading Chinese toys to Costco no doubt... ;D

There's a stupid big building that just barely cuts off my view of Safeco and Qwest ... :moody:

[mhgaffney]

Buff,

Nobody said things in Iraq are ideal. But to haul out a bunch of editorials which emphasize the negative while completely ignoring the opinions of Iraqis themselves (and inventing ridiculous rationalizations to do so) is not proving that things are now TEN MILLION times worse than under Saddam.

I could easily find opinion pieces that emphasize the positives which would also prove nothing.

But surveys of people who live there, now that's unbiased and meaningful evidence. And from what I can see the surveys don't support your opinions.

You must also remember that the state of infrastructure doesn't tell the whole story. Your sources neglect the fact that Iraqis now have the freedom to express their views and critcize their government, to come and go as they please, to a free press, to not be tortured by government thugs, etc. I guarantee these things are also taken into account by the Iraqi people, which acounts for the fact that when surveyed they still think life is better than under Saddam despite the issues with electricity, water, etc.

You are only empahsizing the negative and neglecting the positives.

What an idiot you are, Lone Bolt.

What positives?

The case of Iraq is analogous to what Rome did to Carthage. They didn't just destroy the place -- they sowed the ground with salt so that Carthage would never rise again.

Just so, the US has sowed depleted uranium poison over much of Iraq -- insuring its long term decline as a place where people can live. Need I mention that DU has a rather longer half-life than mere salt? (4.5 billion years - to be exact -- which is essentially eternity)

This in addition to looting and destroying its heritage and infrastructure.

Hillary Clinton and other neo liberals criticized Bush's handling of the US occupation -- but there was never a plan to rebuild Iraq. Hillary never understood this.

The plan all along was to redraw the map -=- erasing the nation of Iraq from history. The goal was to insure that Iraq would never again challenge Israeli hegemony in the Mideast -- and meanwhile to control the region's oil resources.

The real issue is the evil and wickedness of US imperialism -- and like so many clowns on this board you fail to understand this --- making endless excuses for US militarism.

This is fundamentally dishonest position to take.

You are also wrong when you say that the Iraqis support the US occupation. For several years now polls have consisently shown that most Iraqis want the US gone.

Polls also show that US GIs have lost faith in US leadership and want to come home.

MHG

[W*GS]

Here with go with gaffney's anti-Semitic delusions... Again.

[The Lone Bolt]

Gaffney, as a mental health professional I urge you to see a therapist.

[Spider]

I have stayed out of this , But Buff just mopped the floor with Bolt and W*GS ..... totally out classed

[The Lone Bolt]

I have stayed out of this , But Buff just mopped the floor with Bolt and W*GS ..... totally out classed

You're entitled to your opinion, but all Buff did was throw a bunch of opinion pieces at me and say "so there!"

Meantime the people who actually live in Iraq disagree with him, but somehow that's irrelevant.

[Spider]

You're entitled to your opinion, but all Buff did was throw a bunch of opinion pieces at me and say "so there!"

Meantime the people who actually live in Iraq disagree with him, but somehow that's irrelevant.

LOL , do you really think you held up ?

[The Lone Bolt]

LOL , do you really think you held up ?

I would have done much better if I had the time. Bummer dude.

[Spider]

I would have done much better if I had the time. Bummer dude.

I see ..

[cutthemdown]

I'm telling you this is a tiny little oil field as far as Iraq goes. Hell we have tons more then this field in shale oil. This isn't a big deal. If it made good business since to outbid China then some other oil company probably would have right?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It's obvious you don't know when you're beat.

No doubt.

Talk about profound denial.

But then, you're arguing with a guy who still believes Bush didn't lie America into Iraq.

Ha!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Gaffney, as a mental health professional I urge you to see a therapist.

The king of denial and delusion a mental health professional?

Now that's a scary thought. Yikes!

[Spider]

I'm telling you this is a tiny little oil field as far as Iraq goes. Hell we have tons more then this field in shale oil. This isn't a big deal. If it made good business since to outbid China then some other oil company probably would have right?

we got more in Shale oil then the entire Middle east .........

[W*GS]

Buff is just rationalizing (i.e., apologizing) for Saddam.

There's not a whole lot there to refute, as it's asinine on its face.

But, so long as the Iraqi trains ran on time...

[Bronco_Beerslug]

we got more in Shale oil then the entire Middle east .........Which means nothing to or for us right now.
Our total recoverable oil (proved reserves) is very small compared to our thirst for it.

[alkemical]

You're entitled to your opinion, but all Buff did was throw a bunch of opinion pieces at me and say "so there!"

Meantime the people who actually live in Iraq disagree with him, but somehow that's irrelevant.

Wait, did you actually visit them in person and ask them? :~ohyah!:

[mhgaffney]

Lone Bolt,

The truth is -- your mental health field is a haven for nut jobs.

It's been my real life experience that the ranks of your profession include some of the most seriously *^%&cked up individuals on the planet.

This includes pathologically paranoid doctors, sadistic attendant nurses who take pleasure in inflicting pain, not to mention the control freaks.

I know this because I worked in the menal health field.

In fact, one of my mentors was the great psychiatrist Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, author of the runaway best-seller ON DEATH AND DYING. Elizabeth confronted the egotistical MDs head on with the truth about near death experiences -- and she almost single handedly created a whole new medical field, at the same time inspiring the hospice movement.

She was a great teacher -- a saint -- and the reason she was great is because she was fearless. Kubler-Ross was committed to truth and she never backed down from the asshole doctors and narrow minded medical specialists and shrinks who rule the AMA.

I was inspired to study in a clinical psyche program myself for two years: Rosebridge Institute (Walnut Creek, CA) a cutting edge school founded by Dr Ernest Pecci, another amazing psyciatrist.

However, in the end I decided to become a writer.

I would only add that my training in counseling included plenty of therapy -- because there is no way to become a therapist without undergoing deep therapy, onself.,

That is what I did -- and I am the better for it.

But mhgaffney is not the issue, here. The issue is an evil war and an immoral foreign policy.

How come you do not understand this?

Quit making excuses for criminal behavior here in America and in Israel. The people who perpetrated these crimes must be held accountable. If we fail to do so - America is history.

MHG

[alkemical]

The problem i have, is there is an issue with extremist-zionists. But nobody wants to acknowledge that.

[Drek]

I'm telling you this is a tiny little oil field as far as Iraq goes. Hell we have tons more then this field in shale oil. This isn't a big deal. If it made good business since to outbid China then some other oil company probably would have right?

You can't apply free market principles when your opponent is a communist nation.

It can be entirely economically feasible for the rest of the world and China can make it work because of that fact. It also changes how they deal with other nations as they can rule unilaterally without premise for or against anything they want, in both domestic and foreign relations.

[Spider]

Which means nothing to or for us right now.
Our total recoverable oil (proved reserves) is very small compared to our thirst for it.

meh we have been over this ....... Shell oil says different

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Lone Bolt,

The truth is -- your mental health field is a haven for nut jobs.

It's been my real life experience that the ranks of your profession include some of the most seriously *^%&cked up individuals on the planet.

This includes pathologically paranoid doctors, sadistic attendant nurses who take pleasure in inflicting pain, not to mention the control freaks.

I know this because I worked in the menal health field.

In fact, one of my mentors was the great psychiatrist Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, author of the runaway best-seller ON DEATH AND DYING. Elizabeth confronted the egotistical MDs head on with the truth about near death experiences -- and she almost single handedly created a whole new medical field, at the same time inspiring the hospice movement.

She was a great teacher -- a saint -- and the reason she was great is because she was fearless. Kubler-Ross was committed to truth and she never backed down from the a-hole doctors and narrow minded medical specialists and shrinks who rule the AMA.

I was inspired to study in a clinical psyche program myself for two years: Rosebridge Institute (Walnut Creek, CA) a cutting edge school founded by Dr Ernest Pecci, another amazing psyciatrist.

However, in the end I decided to become a writer.

I would only add that my training in counseling included plenty of therapy -- because there is no way to become a therapist without undergoing deep therapy, onself.,

That is what I did -- and I am the better for it.

But mhgaffney is not the issue, here. The issue is an evil war and an immoral foreign policy.

How come you do not understand this?

Quit making excuses for criminal behavior here in America and in Israel. The people who perpetrated these crimes must be held accountable. If we fail to do so - America is history.

MHG

Bingo.

Those people who work in the mental health field who are actually emotionally healthy themselves and have something of value to offer others are the rare exception - not the rule, unfortunately.

The field is rife with people who are hiding out from their own f@cked up histories and who are trying to resolve their own baggage vicariously through their work with clients or patients.

[mhgaffney]

There is a lot of shale oil in Colorado -- true true -- but it is is non recoverable.

Processing oil from shale requires an enormous amount of water -- which is scarce on the West slope.

Processing oil from shale also causes huge environmental impacts. Imagine tailing piles so vast they fill up entire valleys.

You are talking massive destruction of what makes Colorado so special -- its scenic beauty.

Not to menbtion the destruction of water quality due to run off from the vast tailings.

There is a better way -- harvest wind energy from the high plains of Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico and Colorado --

There's enough wind energy to power the entire nation -- if we could just collect it.

The electricity is there for the gathering and it can be converted to liquid fuel to power our fleet of cars and trucks.

If we had invested a tiny fraction of what we've squandered in Iraq into hydrogen energy -- we'd be half way through the transition already.

Leave the oil shale in the ground -- where it belongs!

MHG

[Spider]

There is a lot of shale oil in Colorado -- true true -- but it is is non recoverable.

Processing oil from shale requires an enormous amount of water -- which is scarce on the West slope.

Processing oil from shale also causes huge environmental impacts. Imagine tailing piles so vast they fill up entire valleys.

You are talking massive destruction of what makes Colorado so special -- its scenic beauty.

Not to menbtion the destruction of water quality due to run off from the vast tailings.

There is a better way -- harvest wind energy from the high plains of Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico and Colorado --

There's enough wind energy to power the entire nation -- if we could just collect it.

The electricity is there for the gathering and it can be converted to liquid fuel to power our fleet of cars and trucks.

If we had invested a tiny fraction of what we've squandered in Iraq into hydrogen energy -- we'd be half way through the transition already.

Leave the oil shale in the ground -- where it belongs!

MHG

Oh bull**** .......Stick to Mini Nukes and leave the drilling to the experts , you dont have a ****ing clue .. and google wont save your ass on this

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

<center> http://www.bartcop.com/gas-fillup-no-way.jpg
</center>

[Bronco Bob]

What an idiot you are, Lone Bolt.



Just so, the US has sowed depleted uranium poison over much of Iraq -- insuring its long term decline as a place where people can live. Need I mention that DU has a rather longer half-life than mere salt? (4.5 billion years - to be exact -- which is essentially eternity)


Salt has no half life, it will basically last almost forever because neither
the sodium nor the chlorine in common salt is radioactive. So your
statement that DU has a half life longer than salt is incorrect.
Half the DU will be gone in 4.5 billion years, and half more again
in another 4.5 billion years. But salt will still be around trillions of
years from now, and in the same quantity as there is right now.

[Bronco Bob]

Buff is just rationalizing (i.e., apologizing) for Saddam.

There's not a whole lot there to refute, as it's asinine on its face.

But, so long as the Iraqi trains ran on time...

From what I have observed most Iraqis drive their own automobile or walk.
I don't recall seeing a single commuter train in Iraq.

[The Lone Bolt]

Gaff, IMO you seem to suffer from significant paranoid ideation.

I would hope that the therapy you received would have at least led you to some insight into your issues, but that does not appear to be the case.

You have my sympathy. I work with people all the time who feel that the world is out to get them and I understand what a frightening existance they must live.

[Rohirrim]

Gaff, IMO you seem to suffer from significant paranoid ideation.

I would hope that the therapy you received would have at least led you to some insight into your issues, but that does not appear to be the case.

You have my sympathy. I work with people all the time who feel that the world is out to get them and I understand what a frightening existance they must live.

I think Palin's got that. ;D

[alkemical]

Gaff, IMO you seem to suffer from significant paranoid ideation.

I would hope that the therapy you received would have at least led you to some insight into your issues, but that does not appear to be the case.

You have my sympathy. I work with people all the time who feel that the world is out to get them and I understand what a frightening existance they must live.

The issue is though - that he doesn't have imaginary persecutors. In some ways people here validate it. If he speaks against AIPAC and their influence in horrible foreign affairs decisions - he's called an anti-semite - etc. So some of it is reinforced by the world around him, and NOT by just his own mental state.

MHG isn't scared, he's angry.

[gyldenlove]

Salt has no half life, it will basically last almost forever because neither
the sodium nor the chlorine in common salt is radioactive. So your
statement that DU has a half life longer than salt is incorrect.
Half the DU will be gone in 4.5 billion years, and half more again
in another 4.5 billion years. But salt will still be around trillions of
years from now, and in the same quantity as there is right now.

And, no. Sodium chloride is water soluble, unlike Uranium. That is why the millions of tons of salt we pour onto the streets every winter disappear. Salt will wash away back into the sea after a period of time (depending on the amount precipitation it could be years). Uranium will stay where it is forever and ever, and when in billions of years the majority has decayed it will stay where it is still in the form of lead which is toxic.

[The Lone Bolt]

The issue is though - that he doesn't have imaginary persecutors. In some ways people here validate it. If he speaks against AIPAC and their influence in horrible foreign affairs decisions - he's called an anti-semite - etc. So some of it is reinforced by the world around him, and NOT by just his own mental state.

MHG isn't scared, he's angry.

The "persecutors" don't have to be imaginary. Many schizophrenics who suffer from paranoid delusions believe that the CIA is out to get them, and the CIA is not imaginary.

And I think it's clear that none of Gaff's more implausible beliefs (e.g. mini-nukes, depleted uranium, Bush cancelling the elections in November, remote-controlled airplanes crashing into the pentagon, etc.) are grounded in reality.

[BroncoBuff]

I have stayed out of this , But Buff just mopped the floor with Bolt and W*GS ..... totally out classed
Thank you, sir ...

I hate Saddam, but their country is in absolute shambles now. I can't take credit for winning an argument so simple. And Lone Bolt was trying to be positive about their future, which is generally the kinda thing I do myself, so no problems with Jet City here.

[BroncoBuff]

Okay ... maybe I can see your office from here... I'm on the 13th floor at 2nd and Pike, facing southwest and southeast. I can see most of Elliott Bay, there's a Hanjin freighter parked at the dock offloading Chinese toys to Costco no doubt... ;D

There's a stupid big building that just barely cuts off my view of Safeco and Qwest ... :moody:
Hey Usain, did you catch this post? ;D





(BTW, Usain is a nice nickname for any Bolt, no offense intended ...)

[Spider]

Thank you, sir ...

I hate Saddam, but their country is in absolute shambles now. I can't take credit for winning an argument so simple. And Lone Bolt was trying to be positive about their future, which is generally the kinda thing I do myself, so no problems with Jet City here.

And this is part of the problem , as long as we coddle people who are clearly wrong , let them think they have a point , we get ****ed up decisions , for example if Poppy Bush looked Junior in the eye and said Son , you are incredibly stupid , me and my friends will be supporting you for the rest of your life , we wouldnt be in the **** we are in now ....... Lone Bolt took up the wrong argument , in a topic you guys were discussing the future doesnt mean dick , surviving and supporting your family today is what matters .........let me put it like this , some day fuel prices will drop, we will have alt fuel sources , hooray for our side , but I have to feed my family today .......

[BroncoBuff]

The truth is -- your mental health field is a haven for nut jobs.

It's been my real life experience that the ranks of your profession include some of the most seriously *^%&cked up individuals on the planet.
Bingo. Those people who work in the mental health field who are actually emotionally healthy themselves and have something of value to offer others are the rare exception - not the rule, unfortunately.

The field is rife with people who are hiding out from their own f@cked up histories and who are trying to resolve their own baggage vicariously through their work with clients or patients.
NOW I know why I didn't further pursue my undergraduate psychology degree ... I'm too well-adjusted! ;D

Thanks for clearing that up, guys :thumbs:




Go CU-Denver Golden Buffaloes!

[The Lone Bolt]

Thank you, sir ...

I hate Saddam, but their country is in absolute shambles now. I can't take credit for winning an argument so simple. And Lone Bolt was trying to be positive about their future, which is generally the kinda thing I do myself, so no problems with Jet City here.

well I certainly concede that the country is a mess, but I also believe progress is being made.

The bottom line for me is that whether things are "better" or "worse" in Iraq is a subjective judgement. It depends on the individual. And IMO the opinion that matter the most are those of the people who were born in Iraq, have spent their entire lives there, and wake up in Iraq every morning. These are the people who are in the best position to judge the current quality of life in Iraq relative to the Saddam years, not some internet bloggers posting opinion peices with cherry-picked information.

[Spider]

well I certainly concede that the country is a mess, but I also believe progress is being made.

The bottom line for me is that whether things are "better" or "worse" in Iraq is a subjective judgement. It depends on the individual. And IMO the opinion that matter the most are those of the people who were born in Iraq, have spent their entire lives there, and wake up in Iraq every morning. These are the people who are in the best position to judge the current quality of life in Iraq relative to the Saddam years, not some internet bloggers posting opinion peices with cherry-picked information.

and thats the ****s right now , Progress is being made ? at what Pace , I have a family , even here in America , My family is dependent on me , that is a damn hard job here in the land of milk and honey , can you imagine an Iraqi family man right now ? You can sit there and say all of this is worth it is bull**** , if it was , the iraqi people needed to over throw Saddam and run their own country ........ you can dress this up with Progress and spin all you want , the bottom line is we ****ed up , we wrecked the lives of people and for what ?

[Spider]

And while we are ****ing up the Iraqis lives , the master mind of 9-11 is making more Videos then Paris Hilton ........ And this is our main problem , people who have no business running a country think like you do , the ends justifies the means , I doubt you have any idea where that road leads to .......

[Spider]

Some one should have had the Balls to tell Chaney , Look stupid , we dont need to **** with iraq , we need to get OBL , Frog march his punk ass down town New York putting our foot up his ass every step of the way .........

[alkemical]

And while we are ****ing up the Iraqis lives , the master mind of 9-11 is making more Videos then Paris Hilton ........ And this is our main problem , people who have no business running a country think like you do , the ends justifies the means , I doubt you have any idea where that road leads to .......

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Shades_of_Death_Road_sign_south.jpg

[Spider]

taking the picture forever to load

[alkemical]

Its a street sign that says "shades of death road"

http://www.weirdnj.com/_images_stories/roads5-1.jpg

[Spider]

Its a street sign that says "shades of death road"

http://www.weirdnj.com/_images_stories/roads5-1.jpg

;D I knew you had a good point I was waiting patiently for that pic

[Spider]

Look lone bolt , I am not just picking on you , there are several here with the same kind of Logic ....... here we are 2008 , Major crossroads election , we could fall into another great depression , or we could pull out of this , spending billions in Iraq per month is a damn good place to start fixing things ..... I just want stupid people to understand what this election means and not run off and vote for McCain cause he understands your values ........ I talk to my 99 year old Grandmother a lot , and if we hit another depression , your values, and morals mean **** ......

[The Lone Bolt]

Look lone bolt , I am not just picking on you , there are several here with the same kind of Logic ....... here we are 2008 , Major crossroads election , we could fall into another great depression , or we could pull out of this , spending billions in Iraq per month is a damn good place to start fixing things ..... I just want stupid people to understand what this election means and not run off and vote for McCain cause he understands your values ........ I talk to my 99 year old Grandmother a lot , and if we hit another depression , your values, and morals mean **** ......

I'm not planning on voting for McCain. Leaning towards Obama but I may yet vote Libertarian or Green Party.

[Spider]

I'm not planning on voting for McCain. Leaning towards Obama but I may yet vote Libertarian or Green Party.

vote 3rd party and nothing will get done ......This is crunch time , we are on the edge , time to s**t or get off the pot . it is all about the economy right now ........

[Spider]

I have voted 3 rd party in the past myself Ross Perot , But thanks to the last 8 years , we have no wiggle room , we need someone that Congress will get behind and support , sure some in Congress will fight every inch of the way ...... but f*ck em .......

[The Lone Bolt]

vote 3rd party and nothing will get done ......This is crunch time , we are on the edge , time to s**t or get off the pot . it is all about the economy right now ........

Let's be honest here: what have the major parties ever really gotten done? All they do is maintain the status quo and blame the other party. I get pretty damn sick of the finger pointing and I don't expect it to change under either of the current candidates.

[Spider]

Let's be honest here: what have the major parties ever really gotten done? All they do is maintain the status quo and blame the other party. I get pretty damn sick of the finger pointing and I don't expect it to change under either of the current candidates.

being honest ........
"The economy is strong."
Herbert Hoover, Oct. 1929
Facing alot of the problems we face today ......
now McCain .......
"The fundamentals of this economy are strong."
John McCain, 09/15/08
Guess who got us out of the depression ?
But deeper then that , who in the 3rd party can pull clout ? who in the 3 rd party can get the people to drink his kool aid ?
for example Ron Paul , how many bought into his gold standard ?

[alkemical]

vote 3rd party and nothing will get done ......This is crunch time , we are on the edge , time to s**t or get off the pot . it is all about the economy right now ........

ya know, if enough people voted in that direction - it WOULD make a difference. Put down the flavour-aid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones#Deaths_in_Jonestown).

[Spider]

ya know, if enough people voted in that direction - it WOULD make a difference. Put down the flavour-aid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones#Deaths_in_Jonestown).

sure it would , but we have a limited amount of time here , and we would have to redo congress etc ........ 2012 , make a strong drive promoting the ideas of 3 rd party , but for now , we got alot on our plate that needs ot be taken care of with as little obstruction we can get ........

[alkemical]

sure it would , but we have a limited amount of time here , and we would have to redo congress etc ........ 2012 , make a strong drive promoting the ideas of 3 rd party , but for now , we got alot on our plate that needs ot be taken care of with as little obstruction we can get ........

Same excuses all the time spider....same excuses all the time....

[Rohirrim]

When third parties have ideas that attract a lot of people, one party or the other will co-opt them.

[Spider]

Same excuses all the time spider....same excuses all the time....
well it is up to the third party to change that , like I said the last 3 rd party guy I voted for was Perot , I really havent seen one since him I liked or trusted

[alkemical]

When third parties have ideas that attract a lot of people, one party or the other will co-opt them.

When a lot of people stop being perpetually caught up in the "they said/they said" game, and start taking responsibility for how their actions lead to such a ****ty run gov't and country - then they will realize the failure of the two party system as it is run.

[alkemical]

well it is up to the third party to change that , like I said the last 3 rd party guy I voted for was Perot , I really havent seen one since him I liked or trusted

LOL - but you trust Obama or Mccain?

[Spider]

LOL - but you trust Obama or Mccain?

why shouldnt I ?
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[alkemical]

why shouldnt I ?
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Uhm, ok. Good logic spider - you can't find a 3rd party candidate to support - but there's no reason NOT to trust some people who have a track record of screwing us over?

Cool beans man.

[Spider]

Really pay attention to what Barak is saying , about both sides of the isle right and left .......

[Spider]

Uhm, ok. Good logic spider - you can't find a 3rd party candidate to support - but there's no reason NOT to trust some people who have a track record of screwing us over?

Cool beans man.

Obama never screwed me over , when did he screw you over ?

[Spider]

So what track record does Obama have of screwing us over ?

[TailgateNut]

Uhm, ok. Good logic spider - you can't find a 3rd party candidate to support - but there's no reason NOT to trust some people who have a track record of screwing us over?

Cool beans man.

How has Obama "screwed you over"?

[alkemical]

So what track record does Obama have of screwing us over ?

Patriot act, voted for congressional pay raises, he doesn't exactly stick by his word spider.

[alkemical]

How has Obama "screwed you over"?

Patriot Act, he voted for the Telecom Immunity act, only to then try to strip the telecoms out of immunity - but it's a stall tactic (distraction) - those measures will fail and the telecoms will still get their immunity.

[Spider]

Patriot act, voted for congressional pay raises, he doesn't exactly stick by his word spider.

oh you mean the same Patriot act Bob Barr supported ? and pay raise .... good example

[alkemical]

oh you mean the same Patriot act Bob Barr supported ? and pay raise .... good example

Reason: Do you regret voting for the USA PATRIOT Act?

Barr: I do. I was hoping at the time that it would not be used as a floor but as a ceiling. But it's been a taking-off point for expanded authority in a number of areas. Perhaps most important is the fact that the administration seems to be pushing its application as broadly as it can in nonterrorism cases. And despite the assurances by the administration that Section 215, which relates to obtaining records from libraries and other repositories, is not being used, the fact is it is being used.

It has become much more problematic because it's part of a growing list of privacy-invasive government programs, such as TIA [Terrorism Information Awareness]. They changed the name [from Total Information Awareness] and John Poindexter has left the Defense Department, but I've seen nothing that indicates to me proof that TIA is absolutely dead with a stake driven through its heart and burned and its head cut off, which is how Steve Forbes used to describe what we needed to do with the IRS. So my presumption is that it in some form or fashion is continuing.

We have now the emergence of the CAPPS II system -- the airline passenger profiling system. We have, apparently, a number of state efforts that are being funded by the federal government, such as the one that just came to light called the Matrix system, down in Florida, where the feds are providing grant monies to state agencies to set up programs similar to TIA.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28960.html


Terrorism

He voted for the first Patriot Act,[53] but only after his amendments adding "sunset clauses" were added to the final bill.[54] Barr played a similar role during the debate over Bill Clinton's Comprehensive Anti-terrorism Act of 1995, crafting pro-civil liberties amendments to the original text.[55] He now publicly regrets[30] his Patriot Act vote.[56]

[Spider]

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28960.html

He still voted for it , now he is against it ........

[alkemical]

He still voted for it , now he is against it ........

The only reason he voted for it, is because they put his sunset clauses in it - after Rove and Co' put the pressure on him. (Interesting though. Ron Paul voted against the patriot act)

[Spider]

The only reason he voted for it, is because they put his sunset clauses in it - after Rove and Co' put the pressure on him. (Interesting though. Ron Paul voted against the patriot act)

so he caved into pressure , the over all jist of the patriot act is clear , and its use , even for a trucker .....yes the patriot act should be gone , but wont hold something against Obama when a 3rd party candidate did the exact same thing ........

[alkemical]

so he caved into pressure , the over all jist of the patriot act is clear , and its use , even for a trucker .....yes the patriot act should be gone , but wont hold something against Obama when a 3rd party candidate did the exact same thing ........

And how exactly am i supporting Bob Barr - hmmm - seems spider - you got caught in another deflection. Besides - don't you DEMAND better than Mccain & Obama? Don't your children demand better? :wave:

[Spider]

Now my issues with Bob Barr is , he lead the impeachment against clinton , meanwhile he was doing the exact same things , Bob Barr paid for an abortion , while telling the commoners they shouldnt have an abortion .So it isnt just a 3 rd party thing

[Spider]

And how exactly am i supporting Bob Barr - hmmm - seems spider - you got caught in another deflection. Besides - don't you DEMAND better than Mccain & Obama? Don't your children demand better? :wave:

Boob Barr is the 3 rd party Libertarian candidate ..........

[Spider]

Look I just recently jumped on the Obama bandwagon , I was content with writing Stevie Wonder in ...... So the 3 rd party speech is wasted on me , I have always considered 3 rd party , always looked at them on the issues ...... But Obama changes everything

[alkemical]

Boob Barr is the 3 rd party Libertarian candidate ..........

So your limiting your 3rd party to one guy who ran a while ago?

[Spider]

So your limiting your 3rd party to one guy who ran a while ago?

Give me another legitimate choice ... Cynthia McKinny ...well we really dont need to go there

[alkemical]

Give me another legitimate choice ... Cynthia McKinny ...well we really dont need to go there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_third_party_presidential_candidates

[Spider]

I sh*t you not , we have a woman here running on the fact that her Granddad came to Wyoming and settled here in a covered Wagon ....... a 3rd party candidate would clean her clock ..... but we have W. David Herbert who is just running to get laid

[alkemical]

I sh*t you not , we have a woman here running on the fact that her Granddad came to Wyoming and settled here in a covered Wagon ....... a 3rd party candidate would clean her clock ..... but we have W. David Herbert who is just running to get laid

9/11

[Spider]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_third_party_presidential_candidates

So basically you are asking me ot vote for people I never heard of ... dont know a damn thing about .........yeah I can see me doing that

[alkemical]

So basically you are asking me ot vote for people I never heard of ... dont know a damn thing about .........yeah I can see me doing that

LOL thanks for being an American spider.....

[Spider]

yeah here is a guy i wouldnt want doing my sister , much less running my country
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/FrankMoorepic.jpg

[Spider]

LOL thanks for being an American spider.....

so any crack pot calls himself 3 rd party , I should seriously consider ? thats your position ?

[alkemical]

yeah here is a guy i wouldnt want doing my sister , much less running my country
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/FrankMoorepic.jpg

"if anyone's going to be sleeping with my sister..it's me"

[Spider]

I would do her , but i dont want her running my country ....... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/LPNC_Mary_Ruwart_2008.jpg/464px-LPNC_Mary_Ruwart_2008.jpg

[Spider]

"if anyone's going to be sleeping with my sister..it's me"

ROFL! ..... I didnt see that coming

[alkemical]

so any crack pot calls himself 3 rd party , I should seriously consider ? thats your position ?

As opposed to coke heads? Child molesters? Frauds?

Look - if you* got enough people to get the federal funding (via the % of voting for that party) - you can lay the ground work to get some change. The major two parties won't adopt anything from a viable third party until their voting bloc changes. So... you might as well create some change - if that's what you really want.

[Spider]

As opposed to coke heads? Child molesters? Frauds?

Look - if you* got enough people to get the federal funding (via the % of voting for that party) - you can lay the ground work to get some change. The major two parties won't adopt anything from a viable third party until their voting bloc changes. So... you might as well create some change - if that's what you really want.
thats on the 3 rd party not me .......they need ot get organized , they need to get serious , hell I wouldnt buy a used car from alot of those guys . it is up to the 3 rd party to put forth a quality candidate ...... Ross Perot was their best chance , they need to get more in there , dont blame me for their fail

[alkemical]

thats on the 3 rd party not me .......they need ot get organized , they need to get serious , hell I wouldnt buy a used car from alot of those guys . it is up to the 3 rd party to put forth a quality candidate ...... Ross Perot was their best chance , they need to get more in there , dont blame me for their fail

Now the organization i won't dissuade you from. I totally agree. I wrote up a paper and sent it to my local libertarian group as to how they should organize and setup the grassroots campaign. Signs don't do it, setting up events and phonebanking does.

But as for canditates - They've had a few that were solid. Just not "known" - and...well - even you'd have to admit that the system is stacked against the 3rd parties - I mean look how it was shorted for Ron Paul - wasn't even allowed into the debates - etc.

[Spider]

Now the organization i won't dissuade you from. I totally agree. I wrote up a paper and sent it to my local libertarian group as to how they should organize and setup the grassroots campaign. Signs don't do it, setting up events and phonebanking does.

But as for canditates - They've had a few that were solid. Just not "known" - and...well - even you'd have to admit that the system is stacked against the 3rd parties - I mean look how it was shorted for Ron Paul - wasn't even allowed into the debates - etc.

on this I would agree .......I liked Ron Paul , except for the gold standard and the ron Paul letters ....... that swayed me against him

[alkemical]

on this I would agree .......I liked Ron Paul , except for the gold standard and the ron Paul letters ....... that swayed me against him

The letters didn't bother me because i knew what happened - The gold standard i understood - and i didn't agree 100% but i liked the idea of exploring a different method of trying to get our econ issues back on track.

[Spider]

The letters didn't bother me because i knew what happened - The gold standard i understood - and i didn't agree 100% but i liked the idea of exploring a different method of trying to get our econ issues back on track.

I agree we should look for a different standard , but Paul had a hard line stance on gold ....... renewable energy , should be looked at , we got alot of oil , but eventually even that run dry .........

[alkemical]

I agree we should look for a different standard , but Paul had a hard line stance on gold ....... renewable energy , should be looked at , we got alot of oil , but eventually even that run dry .........

Ya, but congress would have blocked anything he wanted to do with the gold standard and the fed would have had him executed.....

[Spider]

Ya, but congress would have blocked anything he wanted to do with the gold standard and the fed would have had him executed.....

yeah , i think so ......

[mhgaffney]

Gaff, IMO you seem to suffer from significant paranoid ideation.

I would hope that the therapy you received would have at least led you to some insight into your issues, but that does not appear to be the case.

You have my sympathy. I work with people all the time who feel that the world is out to get them and I understand what a frightening existance they must live.

It was the great Russian writer Alexandre Solzhenitsyn who pointed out there are two types of heros. The first goes deep within -- and overcomes the gnosts and demons of the human unconscious. Heros who do this interior work are great and to be admired -- but the greater type of hero is the hero who takes on the issues of the world -- and attempts to make the world a better place.

Along this line -- therapy that creates happy well-adjusted people is a good thing. But therapy that inspires individuals to take on society's problems and work to resolve bigger issues -- this type of action -- is on an even higher plane.

FYI, I was never into conspiracy theories BEFORE 9/11. I thought all of that was a bunch of wacko nonsense -- too far out for me.

But I have learned some hard lessons in the last few years -- as a result of my research. I now understand the world very differently than I did pre-9/11.

The fact is that our nation has descended into a swamp of evil and corruption -- and only you and I can change this equation.

The paranoid vision did not start with Mhgaffney. I trace it to George Orwell, who worked on his grim masterpiece 1984 in the late 1940s even as Harry Truman was giving birth to the US intelligence community, i.e, the CIA.

Lone Bolt, did you know that the CIA oversaw the Viet Nam war for many years -- from the mid 1950s until LBJ escalated the war in 1965? After that the Pentagon ran the war -- but the CIA still played a major role.

During the entire presidency of JFK the CIA was secretly working counter to everything that JFK was trying to do. Did you know this?

After 1962 JFK was working to end the Cold War. Meanwhile, the CIA was throwing gas on the fire.

Did you also know that 6 out of the first 7 directors of the CIA came from Wall Street? They were Bankers and lawyers -- not military experts.

Consider, for example, William Casey -- CIA director under Reagan. Casey was the former head of the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC).

The same was true of Allen Dulles and most of the other CIA chiefs.

What does this tell us?

It tells us that the CIA was not created to serve the white house or the national interests -- but rather, to serve the narrow interests of bankers.

The last strong and independent US president, JFK, was executed because he was perceived as a threat to those same interests, who profit from war, esp the Cold War. Building nuclear weapons was extremely profitable for Wall Street and for the military industrial complex.

The banking interests wanted the Viet Nam War -- which is why it happened. No sooner was JFK dead than LBJ reversed Kennedy's plan to bring the troops home.

After JFK -=- we have never had a strong and independent US president. Every one since LBJ have been under the thumb of Wall Street. This is why we are now in the mess we are in.

Unbridled greed and corruption have caused the financial breakdown we are witnessing. You should be screaming, demanding accountability, calling for a new 9/11 investigation.

Instead, you attack me -- the messenger. Such is the dumbed down state of America in 2008.

Congratulations. Your myopia is symptomatic of the problem.

MHG