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L.A. BRONCOS FAN
09-08-2008, 07:30 AM
The Sarah Palin Selection: Why McCain's Inexperienced Running Mate Falls Short of Meeting the Implicit Constitutional Qualifications For Vice Presidents

By JOHN W. DEAN

Friday, Sept. 05, 2008

In truth, the Vice President of the United States is important for only one reason: He or she will become President of the United States upon the death, incapacity or resignation of the President. Nine times in our history, vice presidents have succeeded to the presidency: John Tyler (1841), Millard Fillmore (1850), Andrew Johnson (1865), Chester A. Arthur (1881), Theodore Roosevelt (1901), Calvin Coolidge (1923), Harry Truman (1945), Lyndon Johnson (1963), and Gerald Ford (1974). Of course, the vice president also has a significant secondary role: It is he or she, acting with a majority of the Cabinet, who can declare the president incapable of carrying out the duties of the office, and then take charge - until the action is either ratified or rejected by a majority of the Congress. So far in our history, however, this has never occurred.

Given the fact that the 2008 GOP standard-bearer John McCain is seventy-two years of age, his selection of an inexperienced Vice Presidential running mate, Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, has again focused attention on the process and procedures for selecting vice presidents - or, to put it more bluntly, the utter lack of process or procedures in selecting the person who is a heartbeat away from the presidency. McCain, not unlike others before him, selected a less than fully vetted running mate for political reasons. That is surely a concern for voters to think over in the upcoming election - but it raises a systemic concern, too, for the long run.

Consider this parallel: Does anyone believe that if John McCain were president and had selected Governor Sarah Palin under the Twenty-fifty Amendment to fill a vacancy in the vice presidency, Congress would have confirmed her? Not likely. In fact, it is even less likely that McCain would have even attempted to do so, for he would have embarrassed himself.

While the Constitution does not expressly set forth qualifications for the vice-presidency, it strongly implies them --- and Palin falls short.

How Our Constitutional Process for Selecting Vice Presidents Evolved

Our founders gave little thought to the vice presidential selection process. Initially, the candidate who placed second in Electoral College votes became vice president. While this worked for the first three presidential elections, the election of 1800 produced a tie in the Electoral College, between Thomas Jefferson and Aaron Burr (both of the same party), and although Burr was the announced candidate for vice president, when he came up with a tie vote, he refused to step aside, forcing the resolution of the contest in the House of Representatives, which proved to be a messy affair.

This clear flaw in the system was corrected by the Twelfth Amendment, which requires electors to vote separately for president and vice president. It was the Twelfth Amendment (adopted in 1804), along with the growth of political parties, that encouraged the pairing of candidates in the presidential election. Since then, the vice presidential selection process has evolved from party leaders' making the selection to the current system, under which the party's presidential nominee is given the power to select a vice presidential running mate.

The Twenty-fifth Amendment (adopted in 1967) indirectly codified the power of a candidate for president to select his vice president, for the Amendment states that when there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, "the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress." A Vice President, like a President, must be a natural born citizen, at least thirty-five years of age, and a resident of the United States for fourteen years.

Of course, Sarah Palin, McCain's running mate, meets the minimum constitutional requirements. But there also exists a clear subtext within the Constitution, and related statutes, that suggests that there are other, implicit qualifications for the Vice President, as well - qualifications as to which Governor Palin falls short. While this subtext is plainly not formally binding on either a presidential candidate or president, candidates and presidents have traditionally followed the implicit qualifications suggested by the Constitution.

The Twenty-fifth Amendment Suggests the Primary Qualifications for Vice Presidents: Be Equipped to Serve as President Starting, if Necessary, on Day One

I served as minority counsel to the House Judiciary Committee when the Committee was working on the Twenty-fifty Amendment. Accordingly, I recall well the difficult debates and discussions on how vacancies in the vice presidency should be filled. The procedures under discussion ranged from a special national election for the vice president, to a convening of the Electoral College to make the decision, to the selection of a vice president by the Congress.

The process that was actually settled on, as I mentioned earlier, codified the procedure that had evolved over the years, through which the candidate selected his running mate. In line with that procedure, presidents were similarly given the power to fill vacancies in the office of the vice president. But there was a crucial difference: Under the Twenty-fifth Amendment, presidents can only fill that office with the approval of a majority vote of both the House and Senate. Confirmation thus entails not only ratification by the public, but also scrutiny by political pros who assure Americans that the new vice president is up to the task of taking charge.

Twice, the Twenty-fifty Amendment has been employed to fill a vacancy in the vice presidency. Nixon appointed Gerald Ford to fill the office when Vice President Spiro Agnew resigned (under threat of indictment). Then, after Nixon resigned, and Ford succeeded to the presidency, Ford used it to appoint Nelson Rockefeller his Vice President.

Both Nixon and Ford explained their decisions, and the criteria at the top of their lists. Nixon wrote in RN: Memoirs of Richard Nixon that from "the outset of the search for a new Vice President I had established four criteria for the man I would select: qualification to be President; ideological affinity; loyalty and confirmability." (Emphasis added.) Nixon's first choice was his Secretary of Treasury John Connally, who was dropped because he would have confirmation problems. (Connally was, in fact, later indicted but acquitted.) New York Governor Nelson Rockefeller and California Governor Ronald Reagan were taken off Nixon's list because the selection of either one over the other would have split the Republican Party. Finally, also on the list was Jerry Ford, the Minority Leader of the House, on whom Nixon settled.

Ford explained in A Time To Heal: The Autobiography of Gerald R. Ford that he had given considerable thought to filling the vice presidency when he became president, and his staff developed a ranking system. "There was one overriding criterion," he wrote to explain his baseline: "[H]e had to be a man fully qualified to step into my shoes should something happen to me."

Ford's top aides eliminated George H. W. Bush, who had served in the House of Representatives and headed the Republican National Committee, "as not yet ready to handle the rough challenges of the Oval Office." And when Ford settled on one of the wealthiest men in America, Nelson Rockefeller, it resulted in protracted confirmation hearings because of the extent of Rockefeller's holdings (which might have raised conflicts of interest). But in the end, Rockefeller was confirmed.

Congress Has Also Suggested Vice Presidential Qualifications Indirectly In the Succession Statutes It Has Passed

The Twenty-fifth Amendment only covers succession to the presidency or vice presidency when one of these offices is vacant - not both. It is silent if there are vacancies in both of the offices of the President and Vice President. The scenario of concurrent vacancies has, however, been addressed by Congress, most recently in a 1947 law.

The line of succession to the presidency begins with the Speaker of the House of Representatives (currently, Nancy Pelosi of California). Next is the President pro tempore of the Senate (currently, Robert Byrd of West Virginia). Finally, if neither of these officers is willing or able to take the post, the succession law turns to the President's Cabinet members.

The current order of succession is Secretary of State (currently, Condoleezza Rice), Secretary of the Treasury (Henry Paulson), Secretary of Defense (Robert Gates), Attorney General (Michael Mukasey), Secretary of the Interior (Dirk Kempthorne ), Secretary of Agriculture (Edward Schafer), Secretary of Commerce (Carlos Gutierrez, who was born in Cuba, and thus not "natural born"), Secretary of Labor (Elaine Chao, who was born in Taiwan, and thus not "natural born"), Secretary of Health and Human Services (Mike Leavitt), Secretary of Housing and Urban Development (Steven Preston), Secretary of Transportation (Mary Peters), Secretary of Energy (Samuel Bodman), Secretary of Education (Margaret Spellings), Secretary of Veterans Affairs (James Peake) and Secretary of Homeland Security (Michael Chertoff). Under the succession statute, the presidency is filled for the remainder of the president's term.

Although this 1947 succession statute has been appropriately criticized, Congress has been reluctant to change it. The Congressional consensus has been that if there is a dual vacancy in the Executive branch's elected officials, it should be temporarily filled by a seasoned elected official from the Legislative Branch. In practice, while the full line of succession has been stipulated, it is unlikely that we will ever need to go beyond the Speaker of the House to fill the vacancy temporarily.

If neither the Speaker nor the President pro tempore is up to the task of serving, Congress has been comfortable with the caliber of appointees serving as Secretaries of State, Treasury, or Defense to serve as temporary president - for no one believes (absent a dramatic situation such as a massive attack on the seat of government that would call into force continuity-of-government plans) that the succession process would ever proceed beyond the "big three" Cabinet posts.

Governor Sarah Palin Does Not Qualify Under the Implicit Constitutional Standards

When Nixon selected Ford to be his Vice President, and Ford selected Rockefeller, the government was divided, with the Democrats controlling Congress. Yet a Democratic Congress approved both Ford and Rockefeller to be Vice President based on inter-branch comity. Surely no one would argue that Sarah Palin is in a league with Ford and Rockefeller when it comes to experience.

Nor does Palin possess anything close to the experience qualifications of the Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, or the President pro tempore of the Senate, Robert Byrd. Indeed, I feel confident that Palin could not get confirmed for any of the top presidential succession posts, namely the posts of Secretary of State, Treasury and Defense. Palin's lack of qualifications have been widely noted. Newspapers from her state have raised questions of her qualifications.

Recently, I was in Alaska, just after Palin's name was first floated as a possible McCain running mate. Although I am not a Democrat, I gave a keynote speech at the Democrats' state convention. During my visit, a senior Democratic Party official said to me that he sure hoped McCain would select Palin, because based on his observation of her record Alaska, he opined that, : "She's screwing up Alaska big time, and she could probably assure defeat for McCain." His wish may be coming true.

John W. Dean, a FindLaw columnist, is a former counsel to the president.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20080905.html

Rohirrim
09-08-2008, 07:37 AM
Palin is nothing more than a living example of the GOPs placement of party politics above everything else. In other words: The Bush Doctrine.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
09-08-2008, 07:45 AM
I wonder how SoCalBronco is going to try to square the foregoing statements by his hero (Nixon) and his hero's attorney (Dean) with his apparently enthusiastic support for McCain's VP selection?

Glad I stocked up on popcorn. ;)

Garcia Bronco
09-08-2008, 09:45 AM
Palin meets the requirements to be President. She is a natural born citizen aged over 35. The writer needs to read the Constitution

MO<1>
09-08-2008, 09:51 AM
Straws. Keep reaching for straws. This is as close as saying she isn't qualified because she hasn't been on "Meet the Press." Does this mean that Nancy Pelosi and henchmen would ensure Pelosi is president in the event of McCain's untimely demise? How did Hitler come to power?

Does this thread demonstrate how desperate the rich, powerful, corrupt, politicians are to protect their revenue generating power?

Mr.Meanie
09-08-2008, 09:52 AM
Palin meets the requirements to be President. She is a natural born citizen aged over 35. The writer needs to read the Constitution

I agree.

Technically McCain could have selected the super-hot soccer mom in the blue minivan he saw on his way to the RNC, or the bum shining his shoes in the mall.

It appears that's the strategery that wins elections...

W*GS
09-08-2008, 09:53 AM
The article is rather dumb.

Garcia Bronco
09-08-2008, 09:55 AM
The article is rather dumb.

The sad thing is the writer used to counsel the President.

The Lone Bolt
09-08-2008, 11:16 AM
From what I've read, both Obama and McCain could technically be considered inelligible to be President as well.

McCain was born in Panama and Obama's mom allegedly wasn't in the US long enough before giving birth.

Spider
09-08-2008, 11:21 AM
From what I've read, both Obama and McCain could technically be considered inelligible to be President as well.

McCain was born in Panama and Obama's mom allegedly wasn't in the US long enough before giving birth.

you better find something to to read then , thats just flat out Bull**** twiggy ....... but I just have to wonder how stupid do you have to be to even consider this ???

Spider
09-08-2008, 11:23 AM
I dont give a Rats ass if Obaam Mother was a hooker in Cuba , once she hit Hawaii and Gave Birth , Barak became an Anchor Baby , and McCain was born on a ****ing Naval Base , aka Us Property ........

TailgateNut
09-08-2008, 11:23 AM
you better find something to to read then , thats just flat out Bull**** twiggy ....... but I just have to wonder how stupid do you have to be to even consider this ???



He's still looking for proof that the "chicken crossed the road".

TailgateNut
09-08-2008, 11:24 AM
I dont give a Rats ass if Obaam Mother was a hooker in Cuba , once she hit Hawaii and Gave Birth , Barak became an Anchor Baby , and McCain was born on a ****ing Naval Base , aka Us Property ........


do you have proof?:rofl:

Spider
09-08-2008, 11:26 AM
You know lone Bolt , I have never hid the fact I only have a 9 th grade education , didnt go to college , I dont even have a GED , you went to college , and i know more about this stuff then you ....Perhaps W*GS is right about public school

Spider
09-08-2008, 11:27 AM
do you have proof?:rofl:

LOL I read it somewhere on the internets , so it has to be true

The Lone Bolt
09-08-2008, 11:38 AM
Jeez, I only said that's what I've read, not that I personally believe it.

Touchy, touchy!:holyguac! :crazy: :saywhat:


Here's what some are saying:

US Law very clearly stipulates: “If only one parent was a US citizen at the time of your birth, that parent must have resided in the United States for at least ten years, at least five of which had to be after the age of 16.”

Barack Obama’s father was not a US citizen, and Obama’s mother was only 18 when he was born, which means although she had been a US citizen for 10 years, his mother fails the test for being so for at least 5 years prior to Barack Obama’s birth.

In order for her child to have been a natural-born US citizen, his mother would have had to be 21 at the time of his birth.

In essence, Mrs. Obama was not old enough to qualify her son for automatic US citizenship.

His mother would have needed to have been 16+5 = 21 years old at the time of Barack Obama’s birth for him to have been a natural-born citizen.

Barack Obama instead should have been naturalized, but even then, that would still disqualify him from holding the office of President under current law.

At best, Barack Obama is only a naturalized US citizen.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/4375

TailgateNut
09-08-2008, 11:40 AM
Jeez, I only said that's what I've read, not that I personally believe it.

Touchy, touchy!:holyguac! :crazy: :saywhat:


Here's what some are saying:



http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/4375


I'll e-mail him with your take when I send my next donation.

The Lone Bolt
09-08-2008, 12:03 PM
OK, I've looked into it further and it does appear to be a bunch of hooey:

First, Hawaii became a part of the United States in 1959. Barack Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961 so his birth was in the United States, not just a U.S. territory. Obama has posted his birth certificate on his web site. CLICK HERE for that page. Even if he had been born in Hawaii when it was a U.S. territory, he would still be regarded as a citizen. According to The Immigration and Nationality Act, Title III, SEC. 305. [8 U.S.C. 1405], "A person born in Hawaii on or after April 30, 1900, is a citizen of the United States at birth." Republican candidate John McCain was born in Panama and is considered to be a U.S. citizen under the same act. McCain was born on a U.S. military base and both of his parents were U.S. citizens.

Since Obama was born in Hawaii, the issue of the citizenship of his mother is not relevant, but the law cited in the eRumor about having just one parent with U.S. citizenship applied to persons born outside of the United States (or specified U.S. territories). Between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, the law specified that if you were born outside of the United States and only one of your parents was a citizen, that parent must have resided in the United States for at least 10 years, at least 5 of which were after the age of 16. That would have applied to Obama only if he had not been born in the United States or a specified U.S. territory.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-birth.htm

Meh. I'm not surprised. Sorry I brought it up.

MO<1>
09-08-2008, 03:05 PM
Obama's mother grew up in Kansas. I don't know Obama Geography, but isn't that one of the 57 US states? If your parents are US citizens, then you are a citizen. Obama is right. "Americans are stupid."

Mr.Meanie
09-08-2008, 03:13 PM
Obama is right. Americans are stupid.

LOL

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
09-08-2008, 04:39 PM
The writer needs to read the Constitution

#1 The writer is a former counsel to the president.

#2 You either didn't read or didn't comprehend the article.

sisterhellfyre
09-08-2008, 04:46 PM
Technically McCain could have selected the super-hot soccer mom in the blue minivan he saw on his way to the RNC...

You mean he didn't? Did you see the look on his face as he watched Palin's turn at the podium when he introduced her?

Yeah, sure, he was admiring her competence...

Regards,
m.

SoCalBronco
09-08-2008, 06:19 PM
I wonder how SoCalBronco is going to try to square the foregoing statements by his hero (Nixon) and his hero's attorney (Dean) with his apparently enthusiastic support for McCain's VP selection?

Glad I stocked up on popcorn. ;)

Why would I have to defend Dean's views? Dean isn't my hero. Dean ranks right up there with Hitler and Stalin in my book. I have no respect for Mr. Dean as a human being. I'm not sure why you are expecting me to defend anything that Dean says.

I will discuss the President's views on the situation, however. From the article you posted:

Both Nixon and Ford explained their decisions, and the criteria at the top of their lists. Nixon wrote in RN: Memoirs of Richard Nixon that from "the outset of the search for a new Vice President I had established four criteria for the man I would select: qualification to be President; ideological affinity; loyalty and confirmability."

Keep in mind that this references the decision to REPLACE Vice President Agnew on the ticket during the President's second term. There was no need, therefore, to include the factor of bringing an electoral benefit to ticket to the above factors listed by the President because that wasn't at issue. This situation isn't the same, because its a choice made before an election, so that additional factor would also be at play. In fact, Nixon's choice of Agnew was based on a) how impressed he was at how Agnew handled riots and b) because he felt that Agnew could help him in the South (I'm not sure why the President believed that, since Agnew was a Maryland guy and was not yet a conservative icon, see e.g. "Spiro Who?", but he did believe it).

In any case, McCain believes, as Nixon did with Agnew, that Palin can provide an electoral benefit, namely peeling off some women from the Democrats. Whether that works or not, I dont know yet, I'm not Miss Cleo. But I will discuss the other factors that the President listed anyway, even though, as noted, the situation was different when he chose Ford (Dean is correct in noting that Ford was his 4th choice, actually). The first factor mentioned is qualification. That's where the debate is right now. It's subjective. The President didn't get into (in that quote) what constituted "qualified" in his view, so unless you can find me some further explication by him on that specific factor, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to defend. Loyalty is another factor. I don't believe I have ever heard the proposition that Palin has shown that she would be, or somehow already is, not being loyal to McCain in any way. Ideological affinity doesn't seem to be a problem. My understanding of your perspective is that neither of them are really mavericks or moderates, so I cannot see how you can now argue that there is no ideological affinity. Confirmability does not apply here, because as I already mentioned, this isn't the Ford situation where the VP changes in midstream and needs to be confirmed. Here, no confirmation is necessary. If she wins, she's in. Period.

Bronco_Beerslug
09-08-2008, 06:23 PM
Why would I have to defend Dean's views? Dean isn't my hero. Dean ranks right up there with Hitler and Stalin in my book. Hitler and Stalin?

SoCalBronco
09-08-2008, 06:24 PM
Hitler and Stalin?

I have no respect whatsoever for Mr. Dean. I will leave it at that.

Rigs11
09-08-2008, 06:25 PM
How about separation of church and state? There she fails. "A task from god", "pray for the pipeline", what a wacko.Hilarious!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
09-08-2008, 08:38 PM
I have no respect whatsoever for Mr. Dean. I will leave it at that.

Even though he was counsel to your hero? ???

Bob
09-08-2008, 11:58 PM
I think that Palin doesnt meet the media's demands that she be a liberal...

Is that the real story here again?

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
09-09-2008, 12:01 AM
I think that Palin doesnt meet the media's demands that she be a liberal...

Is that the real story here again?

No.

The story is that, according to Nixon's former WH counsel, she doesn't meet the Constitutional qualifications.