CBS, Rasmussen Poll: McCain, Obama Tied.

[socalorado]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/04/opinion/polls/main4416798.shtml


CBS Poll: McCain, Obama Tied
McCain Closes Eight-Point Gap From Poll Taken Last Weekend
Stories
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McCain Speech To Be Wake-Up Call For GOP
Did Palin's Speech Rally Democrats, Too?
McCain Speech Excerpts
Palin Speech Scores Big Ratings


(CBS) The presidential race between Barack Obama and John McCain is now even at 42 percent, according to a new CBS News poll conducted Monday-Wednesday of this week. Twelve percent are undecided according to the poll, and one percent said they wouldn't vote.

This is in contrast to a poll conducted last weekend, where the Obama-Biden ticket led McCain-Palin by eight points, 48 percent to 40 percent.

McCain has also closed the enthusiasm gap some with Obama, but it still exists. Fifty-five percent of Obama's supporters are enthusiastic about their choice, and now so are 35% of McCain's. Last weekend, just 25 percent of McCain's supporters were enthusiastic about him, compared to 67 of Obama's supporters.
This week's polling continues to show voters waiting to decide about Sarah Palin (see yesterday's poll on Palin). But in interviewing done yesterday, 83 percent of registered voters said that spouse and family of a candidate will not affect their votes.

Other factors within the race and overall opinions of the candidates, however, have remained similar from this weekend.

Thirty-eight percent say they have a favorable view of Obama, compared 34 percent unfavorable and 27 percent undecided. For McCain, it's 37 percent favorable, 36 percent unfavorable and 27 percent undecided.

McCain maintains his large advantage on the likelihood of being an effective commander-in-chief - 46 percent of voters say it is "very likely" McCain would be an effective commander-in-chief, compared to 24 percent who say that about Obama.

But McCain still has one big deficit to make up -- just 44 percent of voters say he understands their needs and problems, compared with 60 percent who say that about Obama.

In the poll, Obama continues to have a lead with women voters, 43 percent to 38 percent, while McCain has the edge with men, 46 percent to 41 percent. As has been standard in this campaign, voters under age 45 are backing Obama, while older voters are supporting McCain.

McCain wins the support of married voters and Obama has the backing of voters who are not married. It should be noted, though, that most married voters are older while those who are not married tend to be younger.

Independents in this poll are divided. In the poll conducted over the weekend, Obama had a six-point advantage with this group, but now the lead is three points, 39 percent to 36 percent.

McCain has seen a similar uptick from white evangelicals since the weekend - 66 percent now, up from 57 percent.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll
Friday, September 05, 2008
The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Friday shows the beginning of John McCain’s convention bounce and the race is essentially back where it was before Barack Obama’s bounce. Obama now attracts 46% of the vote while McCain earns 45%. When "leaners" are included, it’s Obama 48%, McCain 46% (see recent daily results).

Tracking Poll results are based upon nightly telephone interviews and reported on a three-day rolling average basis. Virtually all of the interviews for today’s update were completed before McCain’s speech last night. Roughly two-thirds of the interviews were completed before Palin’s speech on Wednesday night. Tracking Polls are released at 9:30 a.m. Eastern Time and a FREE daily e-mail update is available.

Both Obama and McCain are now viewed favorably by 57% of the nation’s voters (see trends). However, Alaska Governor Sarah Palin is viewed favorably by 58%--a point more than either Presidential hopeful. Forty percent (40%) have a Very Favorable opinion of her.

Fifty-one percent (51%) of voters now believe that McCain made the right choice when he picked Palin to be his running mate while 32% disagree. By way of comparison, 47% said that Obama made the right choice by picking Delaware Senator Joe Biden as his running mate. Voters are evenly divided as to whether Palin or Obama has the better experience to be President.

Premium Members can review demographic crosstabs and all the data we collect--not just the portion we make public. Premium Members can also get an advance look at tracking poll results via the Daily Snapshot each morning.

The number of Republicans in the country increased slightly during August, but Democrats still have a nearly six point advantage.

The Rasmussen Reports Balance of Power Calculator currently shows Obama leading in states with 193 Electoral College votes while McCain leads in states with 183 votes (see Quick Campaign Overview). When leaners are included, it’s Obama 264, McCain 247 (see 50-State Summary).

Data from Rasmussen Markets currently gives Obama a 56.9% chance of winning in November. Other key stats of Election 2008 can still be seen at Obama-McCain: By the Numbers. Sign up for a free daily e-mail update.

Daily tracking results are collected via telephone surveys of 1,000 likely voters per night and reported on a three-day rolling average basis. The margin of sampling error—for the full sample of 3,000 Likely Voters--is +/- 2 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence. Results are also compiled on a full-week basis and crosstabs for the full-week results are available for Premium Members.

Like all polling firms, Rasmussen Reports weights its data to reflect the population at large. Among other targets, Rasmussen Reports weights data by political party affiliation using a dynamic weighting process. Our baseline targets are established based upon survey interviews with a sample of adults nationwide completed during the preceding three months (a total of 45,000 interviews). For September, the targets are 39.7% Democrat, 32.1% Republican, and 28.2% unaffiliated (see party trends and analysis). For the month of August, the targets were 40.6% Democrat, 31.6% Republican, and 27.8% unaffiliated.

A review of last week’s key polls is posted each Saturday morning. We also invite you to review other recent demographic highlights from the tracking polls.

Rasmussen Reports is an electronic publishing firm specializing in the collection, publication, and distribution of public opinion polling information.

The Rasmussen Reports ElectionEdge™ Premium Service for Election 2008 offers the most comprehensive public opinion coverage ever provided for a Presidential election.

Scott Rasmussen, president of Rasmussen Reports, has been an independent pollster for more than a decade.


Is rasmussen biased?
Is CBS pro Repub or pro Dem? I honestly dont know, and i was suprised to see that they are tied again.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Sep. 05

Obama 301 McCain 224 Ties 13

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

See map for state-by-state breakdown

[Rohirrim]

Sep. 05

Obama 301 McCain 224 Ties 13

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

See map for state-by-state breakdown

Hmmm. That's not the numbers that Diebold has. :rofl:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Hmmm. That's not the numbers that Diebold has. :rofl:

Ha!

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c8/thomasn528/diebold_3a.jpg

[Drek]

1. I remember not too long ago CBS used to be referred to among many broadcasters as the "Christian Broadcasting Station". Where do you think they really lean?

2. Their poll is a piece of trash. They cold called about half the sample of what your more legitimate (and still pretty trash) polls like Zogby and Gallup do, and those polls call based on predefined compositional numbers they want to achieve. CBS might have cold called and got 835 white evangelicals from Arizona. They didn't preserve a legitimate standard by which to grade the poll. That can be seen in their margin of error, +/-3%, like other polls, but another +/-4% on registered (because the pool gets even smaller) and an unknown "higher" error on subgroups. They didn't put any controls in whatsoever.

[Rohirrim]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

[socalorado]

Is rasmussen biased?

[Garcia Bronco]

Evan's are the largest voting group in this country. If every evangelical votes a certain way then that way will be the way.

[Bob]

1. I remember not too long ago CBS used to be referred to among many broadcasters as the "Christian Broadcasting Station". Where do you think they really lean?

2. Their poll is a piece of trash. They cold called about half the sample of what your more legitimate (and still pretty trash) polls like Zogby and Gallup do, and those polls call based on predefined compositional numbers they want to achieve. CBS might have cold called and got 835 white evangelicals from Arizona. They didn't preserve a legitimate standard by which to grade the poll. That can be seen in their margin of error, +/-3%, like other polls, but another +/-4% on registered (because the pool gets even smaller) and an unknown "higher" error on subgroups. They didn't put any controls in whatsoever.

Well it is rumored that somehow an evil Christian was able to slip through the screening process at CBS and was hired. CBS after discovering this embarrassment promptly turned this freak into liberal authorities and has thankfully not been seen or heard from since....

[socalorado]

Evan's are the largest voting group in this country. If every evangelical votes a certain way then that way will be the way.

Heres what amazes me about this. just utterly amazes me. its Hillarious!

6 days ago, NOBODY knew who Palin was.
Since then she has been attacked by every media outlet on the planet.
She gives 1! speech.

After 19 months of campaigning, thousands of speeches and spending well over $100 million dollars, obama has been cut off at the kness in 6 short days by a.......wait for it,...........A HOCKEY MOM!

ROFL!!

You cannot get better entertainment than this!

[Bob]

Again guys -- you need to realize that despite how you feel ideologiclly if you are posting on a political site on the Mane -- you might not be completly mainstream -- so take off the rose colored glasses and know that this will come down to the wire -- again.

Also try to be an American and be willing to give whoever the president is a chance -- before calling for impeachment over imagined wrongs.

[Rohirrim]

Heres what amazes me about this. just utterly amazes me. its Hillarious!

6 days ago, NOBODY knew who Palin was.
Since then she has been attacked by every media outlet on the planet.
She gives 1! speech.

After 19 months of campaigning, thousands of speeches and spending well over $100 million dollars, obama has been cut off at the kness in 6 short days by a.......wait for it,...........A HOCKEY MOM!

ROFL!!

You cannot get better entertainment than this!

Which media outlet attacked her?

[Hotrod]

Heres what amazes me about this. just utterly amazes me. its Hillarious!

6 days ago, NOBODY knew who Palin was.
Since then she has been attacked by every media outlet on the planet.
She gives 1! speech.

After 19 months of campaigning, thousands of speeches and spending well over $100 million dollars, obama has been cut off at the kness in 6 short days by a.......wait for it,...........A HOCKEY MOM!

ROFL!!

You cannot get better entertainment than this!

as my buddy LAspinFan would say +1

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Couple things.

This is just one poll out of three i saw today...this was the only one that said they were tied.

Also, polls from last week and this week should be disregarded because there is always a big post convention jump. Check back in 2 weeks when that has subsided

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Heres what amazes me about this. just utterly amazes me. its Hillarious!

6 days ago, NOBODY knew who Palin was.
Since then she has been attacked by every media outlet on the planet.
She gives 1! speech.

After 19 months of campaigning, thousands of speeches and spending well over $100 million dollars, obama has been cut off at the kness in 6 short days by a.......wait for it,...........A HOCKEY MOM!

ROFL!!

You cannot get better entertainment than this!

Just goes to show you how sad the american electorate is.

[socalorado]

Couple things.

This is just one poll out of three i saw today...this was the only one that said they were tied.

Also, polls from last week and this week should be disregarded because there is always a big post convention jump. Check back in 2 weeks when that has subsided

Theres 2 polls there. just saying.

[bronclvr]

Again guys -- you need to realize that despite how you feel ideologiclly if you are posting on a political site on the Mane -- you might not be completly mainstream -- so take off the rose colored glasses and know that this will come down to the wire -- again.

Also try to be an American and be willing to give whoever the president is a chance -- before calling for impeachment over imagined wrongs.

excellent post-

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Theres 2 polls there. just saying.

Whatever, and you ignored the second part of my post

[socalorado]

Just goes to show you how sad the american electorate is.

Yes. Its just a circus. The whole thing is just a freaking nuthouse with crazies runnin all over the place.
I am still just utterly amazed at the simple fact that a complete NOBODY ( most obamacons used this phrase to poo poo or describe palin) has in 6 days accomplished this feat. the media bias and blogger world has totally backfired.

I mean all party loyalty aside, that is quite impressive. Its also really weird.

[socalorado]

Whatever, and you ignored the second part of my post

Sorry, go to Rasmussen and read the article. It discusses the McPains bounce as well.
Really bro, its this MILF thing that has the place buzzin.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Sorry, go to Rasmussen and read the article. It discusses the McPains bounce as well.
Really bro, its this MILF thing that has the place buzzin.

I know it is...but im saying wait till that calms down. Theres always a jump after conventions. ALWAYS

It's amazing what people vote on...it really is. I weep for our country

[Hotrod]

Dont underestimate the power of hotness

[Drek]

Again guys -- you need to realize that despite how you feel ideologiclly if you are posting on a political site on the Mane -- you might not be completly mainstream -- so take off the rose colored glasses and know that this will come down to the wire -- again.

Also try to be an American and be willing to give whoever the president is a chance -- before calling for impeachment over imagined wrongs.

Really? Come down to the wire? Ohio has swung in favor of Obama in recent state polls, meaning that now McCain needs to flip TWO out of Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Colorado without losing North Carolina, Florida, Missouri, Georgia (where Barr will throw a huge monkey wrench into the GOP's attempts there), or the current tie in Virginia.

Yeah. Its really coming down to the wire. McCain needs a huge turnaround just to make this close.

His polling now reflects greater enthusiasm within die hard republican states. He's gaining support in the deep south and Texas, from large single digit leads to double digit leads. But throughout the rest of the country he's lost ground. That's the real Palin effect.

As for unnecessary impeachments and whatnot, I'd say violating civil rights of the American people and Tea Pot Dome levels of staff corruption merits some kind of investigation, doesn't it? Surely more than a president getting his rocks off with an intern.

[theAPAOps5]

Heres what amazes me about this. just utterly amazes me. its Hillarious!

6 days ago, NOBODY knew who Palin was.
Since then she has been attacked by every media outlet on the planet.
She gives 1! speech.

After 19 months of campaigning, thousands of speeches and spending well over $100 million dollars, obama has been cut off at the kness in 6 short days by a.......wait for it,...........A HOCKEY MOM!

ROFL!!

You cannot get better entertainment than this!

What are you talking about? Because you selectively picked out two favorable polls you claim Obama slain. How about you run over to realclearpolitics.com and look at all the polls. But then again that would ruin "your" reality.

[tnedator]

Sep. 05

Obama 301 McCain 224 Ties 13

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

See map for state-by-state breakdown

Barack Obama 238
183 Solid 55 Leaning

John McCain 174
142 Solid 32 Leaning

Toss Up 126
126 Toss Up

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=5

[Hogan11]

Post convention bounce....the economy will negate it soon enough.

[socalorado]

What are you talking about? Because you selectively picked out two favorable polls you claim Obama slain. How about you run over to realclearpolitics.com and look at all the polls. But then again that would ruin "your" reality.

The same goes for you! Run over to rasmussen and get the newest poll out.

Easy Apa, i am really just amazed (like i said) more by the fact that a "hockey mom" could have the effect she had in such a short time.

I swear those reality shows have nothing on this circus. For me, its just such entertainment if nothing else.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Easy Apa, i am really just amazed (like i said) more by the fact that a "hockey mom" could have the effect she had in such a short time.
.I'm not amazed at all when a white, attractive woman who is a complete hardcore right winger states she believes God ordains war, etc... which enthralls so many on the right.

[theAPAOps5]

The same goes for you! Run over to rasmussen and get the newest poll out.

Easy Apa, i am really just amazed (like i said) more by the fact that a "hockey mom" could have the effect she had in such a short time.

I swear those reality shows have nothing on this circus. For me, its just such entertainment if nothing else.

Oh I am not mad its just you left out other polls. I am enjoying watching this too.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

After 19 months of campaigning, thousands of speeches and spending well over $100 million dollars, obama has been cut off at the kness in 6 short days by a.......wait for it,...........A HOCKEY MOM!


???

And this is all taking place in which nutty, right-wing parallel universe?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Really? Come down to the wire? Ohio has swung in favor of Obama in recent state polls, meaning that now McCain needs to flip TWO out of Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Colorado without losing North Carolina, Florida, Missouri, Georgia (where Barr will throw a huge monkey wrench into the GOP's attempts there), or the current tie in Virginia.

Yeah. Its really coming down to the wire. McCain needs a huge turnaround just to make this close.

His polling now reflects greater enthusiasm within die hard republican states. He's gaining support in the deep south and Texas, from large single digit leads to double digit leads. But throughout the rest of the country he's lost ground. That's the real Palin effect.

As for unnecessary impeachments and whatnot, I'd say violating civil rights of the American people and Tea Pot Dome levels of staff corruption merits some kind of investigation, doesn't it? Surely more than a president getting his rocks off with an intern.

There you go confounding the wingers with inconvenient facts again. ;)

[defenseman]

Is rasmussen biased?

they aren't too bad. But, I've said this before, it's two early to be watching polls. A general snapshot maybe at best, with lots of distortion. About 30 days out is when the clouds will start clearing, better views are gotten, and both sides start a hard charge to the finish line...dman

*Debates, specifically presidential, will be the key. right now, having seen both debate, I'd say obama has the edge. He is a very good debater.

[theAPAOps5]

*Debates, specifically presidential, will be the key. right now, having seen both debate, I'd say obama has the edge. He is a very good debater.

I am surprised to hear you say that. One of the major knocks on Obama is he can only read a teleprompter and McCain will have the upper hand. Especially in the Town Hall format.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I am surprised to hear you say that. One of the major knocks on Obama is he can only read a teleprompter and McCain will have the upper hand. Especially in the Town Hall format.

I have to give dman credit for being a realist in this instance.

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together understands that you don't become a law professor or president of the Harvard Law Review if you don't know how to debate.

[snowspot66]

Considering McCain's showings vs. Ron Paul in the primaries I think Obama will have plenty of ammunition.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Considering McCain's showings vs. Ron Paul in the primaries I think Obama will have plenty of ammunition.

Yep.

Especially when he's debating a guy who admits he doesn't "get" economics, etc.

[tnedator]

Yep.

Especially when he's debating a guy who admits he doesn't "get" economics, etc.

Funny how you guys spend so much time talking about how bad McCain and Palin will do in the debates. Sure sounds like you are trying to convince yourselves more than anyone else. LOL

[Hogan11]

Funny how you guys spend so much time talking about how bad McCain and Palin will do in the debates. Sure sounds like you are trying to convince yourselves more than anyone else. LOL

Do you really think either McCain or Palin stand a chance against Obama and Biden in the upcoming debates? I sure don't, not unless a major gaff is committed by either Obama or Biden.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Funny how you guys spend so much time talking about how bad McCain and Palin will do in the debates. Sure sounds like you are trying to convince yourselves more than anyone else. LOL

Talking about the debates on a WRP forum?

Who would have imagined that? :laugh:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Do you really think either McCain or Palin stand a chance against Obama and Biden in the upcoming debates? I sure don't, not unless a major gaff is committed by either Obama or Biden.

You're talking to a Kool-Aid guzzler who probably declared Bush the winner in the '04 debates. ;)

[Bronco Bob]

*Debates, specifically presidential, will be the key. right now, having seen both debate, I'd say obama has the edge. He is a very good debater.

Not really. When Obama has a chance to get out on the stump and give
a long 40 minute speech to get his points across, Obama does great.
But in the 10 second soundbite of the so called debates on TV, he
does rather poorly. Hillary cleaned Obama's clock in their debates.

[theAPAOps5]

Tnedator I have to say that while I am independent and haven't decided if I am voting Obama or anyone other than McCain you can't say that people are worried about McCain and Palin killing Obama and Biden in the debates.

Obama will struggle the most in the town hall style debates but thats about it. Palin is a realtive rookie in politics and she is facing Biden in the VP debate. Biden a seasoned politician and eloquent debator will wipe the mat with Palin. If anything I would say the edge goes to the Dems.

They key for both sides is while winning the debates is important you can't win at the expense of the important demographics. Thats the independents and undecided. Both have to consider those in the debates.

[tnedator]

Do you really think either McCain or Palin stand a chance against Obama and Biden in the upcoming debates? I sure don't, not unless a major gaff is committed by either Obama or Biden.

Well, yes I do. Here is why:

First, Obama is MUCH better when he is scripte, vs. unscripted. This is why he looked so bad at Saddlebrook (or wherever that debate was). He is so busying trying to keep from answering wrong, that people see him as waffling or riding the fence.

McCain, who is a horrible public speaker, does much better in an unscripted setting. When he is asked questions and can just give quick, honest answers. He comes across as confident, because he is less concerned with 'saying the wrong thing' and more focused on getting his message across.

Second, Biden is famous for saying incredibly stupid things. Palen, is an unkown. It is reported that she did very well in the debates against the incumbant GOP governor in Alaska, but the only unscripted Palin we have seen is old interviews. She appeared solid in those interviews, but that is far from a national debate for the VP slot.

I think the VP debate could go anywhere from Biden stepping on his dick (with his Bidenisms) or Palen blowing it with something stupid, like not knowing the difference between Sunis and Kurds, or knowing the President of Iran.

As I have said before, I have NEVER been a fan of McCains. Of all the major GOP candidates (except Paul who wasn't really a GOP candidate), he was the last one I wanted to get the nod. However, I still think he will likely perform at least as well as Obama, if not better, because Obama is too focused on voting present in all that he does. He is afraid to come down on the wrong side of an issue -- of saying something that will haunt him later. This is why he doesn't perform well in the unscripted settings.

You're talking to a Kool-Aid guzzler who probably declared Bush the winner in the '04 debates.

Once again, the guy that keeps pulling the straw man card whenever he can't respond with facts, simply tries to 'discredit' a poster.

It's a weak debater that must constantly rely on 'tricks' and 'deception' rather than simply debating the facts.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Once again, the guy that keeps pulling the straw man card whenever he can't respond with facts, simply tries to 'discredit' a poster.


More like the guy who keeps busting you on your straw man arguments, e.g., the latest one where you claim liberals "don't believe a woman can make in on the GOP ticket."

You are nothing but another right-wing disinfo slinger.

Anything I can get from you I can get from Rush's broadcast.

[tnedator]

Tnedator I have to say that while I am independent and haven't decided if I am voting Obama or anyone other than McCain you can't say that people are worried about McCain and Palin killing Obama and Biden in the debates.

Obama will struggle the most in the town hall style debates but thats about it. Palin is a realtive rookie in politics and she is facing Biden in the VP debate. Biden a seasoned politician and eloquent debator will wipe the mat with Palin. If anything I would say the edge goes to the Dems.

They key for both sides is while winning the debates is important you can't win at the expense of the important demographics. Thats the independents and undecided. Both have to consider those in the debates.

I think I answered most of this in my previous post, which I was typing while you posted this.

Biden has lots of experience, but has a tendency to say stupid things that upset large groups of people. If he can avoid this, then he certainly will do well in the debate.

Palin is a complete unknown, and we haven't seen her in an unscripted environment. However, in her RNC speech and campaign stops, she has performed very well. It is likely that she will perform very well in the debates, but the biggest risk is her making a big mistake of some type, because she is having to take a crash course in where McCain stands on every issue. She is an unknown.

McCain is much better in debates, especially Town Hall type debates, and Obama's camp is trying to control the types of debates to limit where Obama comes off poorly. McCain will come across fine in the debates, as long as he doesn't show his 'anger' which he showed in several GOP debates.

Obama does very poorly in non-scripted settings. Obama is a dynamic speaker that performs exceedingly well on the stage, but not nearly as good in debates, interviews and other non-scripted settings. As I said in my previous post, he is so focused on not saying the wrong thing, that he is seen as indecisive by some, a waffler by others, or simply what he is, someone who is more afraid of saying the wrong thing, than simply getting 'his' message across.

So, I think it is FAR from conclusive how the debates are going to go. I am not going to sit here and say the Republicans are going to wipe the floor with Obama and Biden, because among other things that would be extremely arrogant of me to presume to be all knowing and capable of seeing the future.

The fact is that the reason we have debates is so that we can see the candidates and hear their views. It is unfortunate that so many 'know' the outcome before ever seeing them.

[theAPAOps5]

We'll see but I am willing to go out on a limb and say Biden kills Palin based on experience. Obama will win but won't be a walk in the park.

[tnedator]

More like the guy who keeps busting you on your straw man arguments, e.g., the latest one where you claim liberals "don't believe a woman can make in on the GOP ticket."

You are nothing but another right-wing disinfo slinger.

Anything I can get from you I can get from Rush's broadcast.

I guess that then makes one of us that listens to Rush. I personally haven't listened to one of his shows in 10 years or so.

You 'think' you know everything about a poster simply, because they disagree with you. You accuse others of drinking koolaid, yet aren't even willing to openly discuss issues of this election and the candidates, only attack anyone that doesn't support Obama by calling them a Bush lover, koolaid drinker, or some other sophomoric name.

I am far from a right wing anything, but you keep launching attacks at me, rather than focusing on DISCUSSING the facts. Yet, you keep pulling the BS fallacy cards. Boorish. Very, boorish.

[tnedator]

We'll see but I am willing to go out on a limb and say Biden kills Palin based on experience. Obama will win but won't be a walk in the park.

Most people think that, but isn't that why they play the game on Sunday? The outcome really isn't pre-determined.

[theAPAOps5]

Yeah they play the game on Sunday. But there are games and there are games where a team is a 16 pt favorite. There is upsets and there are blowouts. I am leaning more towards a blowout. But I will still be here if I am wrong as I know you will.

[tnedator]

Yeah they play the game on Sunday. But there are games and there are games where a team is a 16 pt favorite. There is upsets and there are blowouts. I am leaning more towards a blowout. But I will still be here if I am wrong as I know you will.

I understand, and based on the way the media has analyzed this game, you should expect a blowout. As Broncos fans, I think we can all understand how sometimes the media has their darlings and sometimes they have teams they never give respect.

The media has picked their darling, in Obama, long ago. This isn't even open for debate, since recent polls have shown Americans clearly see the fact that many 'major' news networks are trying to get Obama elected.

So, I 'believe' that people's perception might be slightly altered by the coverage has taken place. People forget that Obama has done little but run for office since being elected to the Senate. People forget that even he has to point to running his campaign (which actually a campaign manager does) as his 'executive' experience.

This very high stakes game is far from over. I think we have a situation where many greatly over-estimate Obama, under-estimate Palin (although only time will tell) and you have McCain and Biden which are two career politicians which should have been kicked out of the Senate years ago with term limits.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The media has picked their darling, in Obama, long ago. This isn't even open for debate, since recent polls have shown Americans clearly see the fact that many 'major' news networks are trying to get Obama elected.
.Geeeeezus, you right wingers sure have a tough life with the horrible, unfair, biased media always dissing your party don't you?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The number of Republicans in the country increased slightly during August, but Democrats still have a nearly six point advantage.

During August, the number of Americans who consider themselves to be Republicans increased two percentage points to 33.2% while the number of Democrats was little changed at 38.9%.

That gives the Democrats a net advantage of 5.7 percentage points, down two points from a month ago and down significantly from the double digit advantage they enjoyed in April and May.

However, the Democrats still enjoy a much bigger advantage today than they did when votes were cast in Election 2004 and an advantage almost identical to their edge in January. In fact, other than the past six months, the current 5.7 percentage point advantage is one of the biggest on record (see history from January 2004 to present).

[Drek]

I understand, and based on the way the media has analyzed this game, you should expect a blowout. As Broncos fans, I think we can all understand how sometimes the media has their darlings and sometimes they have teams they never give respect.

The media has picked their darling, in Obama, long ago. This isn't even open for debate, since recent polls have shown Americans clearly see the fact that many 'major' news networks are trying to get Obama elected.
So the media across the board falling over themselves about Palin reading a speech written for her that was filled with lies (selling the state jet on ebay), half truths (opposing the bridge to nowhere before being for it), a ton of personal attacks at Obama and his wife, and ZERO policy is left wing media bias? Seriously?


Yeah, writing a bill that non-partisan groups refer to as "the gold standard" of ethics reform, writing a bi-partisan bill with Dick Lugar that locked up free nukes from Russia around the world, and doing more for veterans in four years than McCain has done in 26 years is doing nothing. Sure.

FYI, Obama's first bill passed when he was only a week into his position. He doesn't sit on his hands waiting for something to vote on, he goes out there and crafts the kind of legislation he feels is needed.

[quote]This very high stakes game is far from over. I think we have a situation where many greatly over-estimate Obama, under-estimate Palin (although only time will tell) and you have McCain and Biden which are two career politicians which should have been kicked out of the Senate years ago with term limits.
Much like the democratic primaries the math is so heavily in Obama's favor that it is laughable anyone thinks this is a close race. But just like the democratic primary the main stream media is spinning hard, and in the only direction that matters to them. To give a perception of a tight race to boost viewership and advertising dollars.

The MSM NEVER attacks McCain on the thousands of outright policy flip flops from 2000 to now, or even the republican primaries to now. They never show lengthy footage of him speaking. They throw up softball questions to him when interviewed. Its because he's the media darling here and they know if they reported on him honestly Obama would carry at least a 20% lead in every state that isn't psychotically right wing controlled. No need to hurt the cash cow with things like facts and reality.

[defenseman]

Not really. When Obama has a chance to get out on the stump and give
a long 40 minute speech to get his points across, Obama does great.
But in the 10 second soundbite of the so called debates on TV, he
does rather poorly. Hillary cleaned Obama's clock in their debates.

We aren't talking about Hillary, we are talking about McCain. I give Obama the edge over McCain, in case you missed it, Romney cleaned his clock a few times. However, I definitely like Palin totally surprising Biden. Sorry, hands down, she walked on the stage and literally took the place over, let alone totally energized a half dead party. When you "step back" and think about that, you gotta recognize, this normally happens once, maybe twice in a lifetime, and she did it. I like her odds against the same ole "politics as usual" Biden. And, I like Joe. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see her slice and dice him, she's definitely surprisingly charasmatic, not to mention savvy and smart.....dman

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

....she walked on the stage and literally took the place over, let alone totally energized a half dead party.

By doing what?

Reading someone else's words from a teleprompter like any CNN or Fox New bobble head could have done.

Do you honestly think she will be able to hold her own in an unscripted forum, e.g., a debate with Biden?

[tnedator]

So the media across the board falling over themselves about Palin reading a speech written for her that was filled with lies (selling the state jet on ebay), half truths (opposing the bridge to nowhere before being for it), a ton of personal attacks at Obama and his wife, and ZERO policy is left wing media bias? Seriously?


And everyone one of them (Fox included) felt it necessary to point out she had a speech writer and used a tele-prompter, which is sexist. CNN wouldn't stop harping on it.

As to Obama (I am running late, so can't quote each item), he may have had his first bill passed, but I believe he has only had one since, which is 1.5% of the bills he has authored has been passed.

Just like the people on this forum use false or twisted facts to make their points, so do politicians -- Palin, McCain, Obama, Hillary, Rudy, etc. They ALL do it, people that choose to point out the fact ONE candidate does it are being hypocritical or sexist, or just choosing to only focus on facts when they are convenient.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

And everyone one of them (Fox included) felt it necessary to point out she had a speech writer and used a tele-prompter, which is sexist. CNN wouldn't stop harping on it.

Huh?

"Sexist?" ???

Are you sniffing glue?



Just like the people on this forum use false or twisted facts to make their points, so do politicians....

Of course, you don't include yourself in this characterization.

In any event, for a guy who so frequently accuses others of "twisting facts," you don't seem to be able to point to too many examples. :clown:

[Mr.Meanie]

And everyone one of them (Fox included) felt it necessary to point out she had a speech writer and used a tele-prompter, which is sexist.

Interesting. If someone said that about Obama, would you call them racist?

[Drek]

We aren't talking about Hillary, we are talking about McCain. I give Obama the edge over McCain, in case you missed it, Romney cleaned his clock a few times. However, I definitely like Palin totally surprising Biden. Sorry, hands down, she walked on the stage and literally took the place over, let alone totally energized a half dead party. When you "step back" and think about that, you gotta recognize, this normally happens once, maybe twice in a lifetime, and she did it. I like her odds against the same ole "politics as usual" Biden. And, I like Joe. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see her slice and dice him, she's definitely surprisingly charasmatic, not to mention savvy and smart.....dman

She was reading a prepared speech.

If you'd google some of her non-telepromptered speaking engagements you'd see that she isn't nearly as polished or articulate when not guided along.

Biden's a capable orator on his own right and faired very well in the democratic primary debates. It will be far from her first national issues debate, while it will clearly be hers.

The only way either democratic candidate isn't the clear winner is if the questions are slanted horribly in favor of the republican ticket.

The GOP agrees by the way. They've publicly said they have no plans to have Palin do any interviews if they don't feel it is in their campaign's best interests. Instead they have her lined up for 30 fund raisers in 60 days with hand screened GOP/Right wing loyalists to pump them for cash.

She's McCain's political sugar momma, just like Cindy is his real life one.

[Drek]

And everyone one of them (Fox included) felt it necessary to point out she had a speech writer and used a tele-prompter, which is sexist. CNN wouldn't stop harping on it.
It isn't sexist at all. Nearly every network mentioned that Biden's speech was solid though he was clearly not comfortable with Obama's campaign speech writers. Even coverage for a man and a woman.

The only difference now is that while in previous years everyone assumed they were all from speech writers. Obama changed the game because he writes many of his own speeches. When the media commented on it the follow of up then clarifying that no one else does that was required to preserve journalistic integrity.

As to Obama (I am running late, so can't quote each item), he may have had his first bill passed, but I believe he has only had one since, which is 1.5% of the bills he has authored has been passed.
What Obama has done in both the U.S. and State Senates:

- The Obama/Feingold bill. Obama Was A Key Player In Assembling And Passing The 2007 Ethics Reform Law, Which Curbed The Influence Of Lobbyists And Was Described As The "Most Sweeping Since Watergate."

- In 2006, Obama was an original cosponsor of a bill to create a "Google-like" database of information on federal spending. So Americans can see where their money goes. He got it passed. The database is here.

- Obama Passed Into Law Legislation Requiring Lobbyists To Disclose Their Bundling Activity, Making Him Unpopular Even Among Other Democrats. Obama sponsored an amendment to require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged. Obama's amendment was passed by unanimous consent and attached to the Senate ethics bill, which was signed into law on September 15, 2007.

- Obama Passed Illinois Campaign Finance Reform, "Heralded As the Most Sweeping Good-Government Legislation in Decades." In 1998, Obama passed the Illinois Gift Ban that prohibited legislators, state officers and employees, and judges from soliciting or receiving gifts from a person or entity with interests affected by government.

- Obama Passed Law Requiring Comprehensive Nuclear Threat Reduction Strategy To Secure Weapons And Usable Nuclear Material. Senator Obama worked with Republican Senator Hagel on this law. The Obama-Hagel provision is aimed at preventing nuclear terrorism.

- Obama Passed Legislation To Keep Weapons Of Mass Destruction Out Of The Hands Of Terrorists. In 2006, Obama was an original co-sponsor of legislation to expand U.S. cooperation to destroy conventional weapons. It also expands the State Department's ability to detect and interdict weapons and materials of mass destruction. The legislation was included in an appropriations bill that was later signed into law by the president.

- Obama Passed Law to Promote Relief, Security, and Democracy in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

- Obama Passed Bipartisan Legislation That Expanded Health Care Coverage To 154,000 Residents, Including 70,000 Children. In 2004, Obama sponsored and helped pass legislation that expanded and made permanent Illinois' KidCare program so that all children in Illinois have healthcare.

- Obama Passed A Bill To Create Hospital Report Cards To Assist Consumers; The Bill Was Sponsored By Members Of Both Parties. Obama was the chief sponsor of Hospital Report Card Act.

- Obama Passed An Amendment Into Law That Pressured The EPA to Comply With New Lead-Paint Regulations After Seven Years of Delay. In 2005, Obama passed an amendment, which became law, to the FY 2006 Department of Interior Appropriations Act prohibiting the use of funds in the bill to delay or contravene implementation of an existing but unmet statutory requirement passed by Congress in 1992 that the EPA rewrite regulations on dispersal of lead paint by home remodeling contractors by October 1996. This law protects children!

- Obama Passed A Law Requiring The Defense Secretary To Report On The Pentagon's Efforts To Prepare For Military And Civilian Personnel For A Possible Influenza Outbreak.

- Obama Passed Legislation Providing $25 Million In Funding For Avian Flu Research And Containment Efforts. Obama's amendment called for a stockpile of antiviral drugs and necessary medical supplies to combat and contain an outbreak.

- Obama Passed Health Care Justice Act. In 2004, Obama was chief sponsor of bill creating the Health Care Justice Act, providing that the State of Illinois shall implement a health care access plan that provides uniform benefits for all Illinois residents.

- Obama Passed Legislation Creating A Tax Credit For The Installation Of E-85 Fuel Pumps. Under Obama's legislation, gas stations would get a tax credit to install equipment accommodating E-85 - an ethanol-based fuel alternative that its promoters say is up to 50 cents cheaper per gallon than unleaded gasoline.

- Obama Passed An Amendment Into Law To Fund Research For Hybrid/Flex Fuel Vehicles.

- Obama Passed Into Law An Amendment Establishing A Grant Program To Support Summer Curricula That Emphasize Math And Problem Solving. In 2007, Obama sponsored an amendment, which became law, to the America Competes Act that established a competitive state grant program to support summer learning opportunities with curricula that emphasize mathematics and problem solving.

- Obama Passed An Amendment, Which Became Law, Preventing The VA From Conducting A Review Of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Cases Aimed At Reducing Benefits.

- Obama Passed Legislation, Which Became Law, Improving And Increasing Services For Homeless Veterans. Obama's SAVE Act and Homes for Heroes Act.

- Obama Passed Legislation Extending Tax Credits For Military Families By Allowing Service Members Deployed In War Zones To Apply Non-Taxable Combat Pay To The EITC.

- Obama Passed An Amendment, Which Became Law, To Require The VA To Conduct A Campaign To Inform Disabled Vets Of Disparities In Compensation And Explaining Their Rights To Seek Review.

- Obama Passed Death Penalty Overhaul Package. Obama was the chief co-sponsor of the Capital Punishment Reform Study Committee Act, which would let judges rule out a death sentence for someone convicted solely on the testimony of a jailhouse informant, accomplice or single witness.

- Obama Passed Law To Require Videotaped Interrogations In Capital Cases. This law helps prosecutors prove that confessions were not coerced.

- Obama Passed Law Creating $100 Million Earned Income Tax Credit, Formed A Political Alliance Of Republicans And Democrats To Pass The EITC. Obama sponsored and passed a bill that amended the Illinois Income Tax Act to create the earned income tax credit.

- Obama Passed Law Creating The Illinois Temporary Assistance For Needy Families Program. Obama was a chief co-sponsor of the bill, which created flexibility for victims of domestic violence, set a five-year limit for receiving public assistance, banned anyone convicted of a serious drug-related Class X or Class 1 felony from ever receiving assistance, required that all recipients develop a personal plan for self-sufficiency, and listing the steps they will take to move from welfare to work.

- Obama Passed A Bill Requiring Advance Notice Of Mass Layoff And Plant Closings. Obama was the chief sponsor of the bill requiring employers to give 60 days advance notice of mass layoffs or plant closings to state officials to ensure timely unemployment assistance for workers.

- Obama Passed Whistle-Blower Protection Law. Obama was the chief co-sponsor of the bill, which prevents employers from prohibiting an employee from disclosing information to a government or law enforcement agency if the employee has reasonable cause to believe that the information discloses a violation of State or federal law.

- Obama Sponsored Law To Protect Overtime Pay To Counter Bush Restrictions. Obama was the chief sponsor of a new law that exempted Illinois from the new federal overtime rules and protected overtime pay for thousands of our state's workers.

- Obama Passed Legislation Prohibiting the Department of Homeland Security From Entering Into Open-Ended, No-Bid Contracts For Emergency Response Activities. Senator Obama worked with Republican Senator Coburn on this legislation, which will stop the abuse of no-bid contracting in the aftermath of a disaster.

- Obama Passed An Amendment Into Law Creating A National Family Locator System. In 2006, Obama passed an amendment to the Fiscal Year 2007 Homeland Security Appropriations Act that required the Department of Homeland Security to create a centralized family locator system through which family members can contact their lost loved ones during disasters. The amendment, which was signed into law as part of the final version of the bill, was based on legislation Obama introduced immediately after Hurricane Katrina.


Just like the people on this forum use false or twisted facts to make their points, so do politicians -- Palin, McCain, Obama, Hillary, Rudy, etc. They ALL do it, people that choose to point out the fact ONE candidate does it are being hypocritical or sexist, or just choosing to only focus on facts when they are convenient.

No, wrong. Plain and simple. You're just too busy drinking the kool-aid.

Lets look at a non-partisan study group on this, Politifact.com.

On their outright lies, "pants on fire page" we see.... (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/rulings/pants-fire/)

4 OUTRIGHT LIES by McCain leveled at Obama.

ZERO from Obama.

1 from Biden, directed at Bush, calling him "brain dead" (I question Politifact's research on this one).

As for Obama's and McCain's general records on Politifact:

Obama (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/barack-obama/)
39 "true"
23 "mostly true"
20 "half true"
12 "barely true"
18 "false"
again, zero "pants on fire"

Only 4 of his "false" statements involved McCain, Palin, or Biden (all McCain actually).

112 total statements, 50 were something less than "mostly true". So true/false of 55.36%/44.64%.

Only 4 of his false statements attacked McCain or Palin, for a 22% share of his "false" statements.

McCain (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/john-mccain/)

25 "true"
19 "mostly true"
19 "half true"
19 "barely true"
22 "false"
again, 4 "pants on fire"

9 of his "false" are lies about Obama, 2 are about Palin.
3 of his 4 "pants on fire" accusations directly mention Obama.

108 statements. 64 containing something less than "mostly true" information. True/False percentage of 40.74%/59.26%

12 of 26 false or "pants on fire" claims directed at Obama, for a 46.15% rate of attack on his opponent.

So how exactly are both sides doing this?

Obama's campaign has yet to tell any outright bull**** about his opponent, and very few attacks were without some merit. More often than not his comments had solid truth behind them. McCain on the other hand has dedicated most of his supposed "errors" to attacking Obama, and is wrong much more often than not.

[Rohirrim]

The MSM NEVER attacks McCain on the thousands of outright policy flip flops from 2000 to now, or even the republican primaries to now. They never show lengthy footage of him speaking. They throw up softball questions to him when interviewed. Its because he's the media darling here and they know if they reported on him honestly Obama would carry at least a 20% lead in every state that isn't psychotically right wing controlled. No need to hurt the cash cow with things like facts and reality.

But Jon Stewart does. In the coming days you'll see a video the Daily Show put together showing McCain's current positions on issues from abortion to taxes that are 180% opposite from the stands he took on those issues in 2000. It's just blatant :bs:

No wonder the McCain campaign has no other option than to try to smear their opponent. Maverick? Man of principles? Ha!

[Play2win]

But Jon Stewart does. In the coming days you'll see a video the Daily Show put together showing McCain's current positions on issues from abortion to taxes that are 180% opposite from the stands he took on those issues in 2000. It's just blatant :bs:

No wonder the McCain campaign has no other option than to try to smear their opponent. Maverick? Man of principles? Ha!

McCain is a slut. And he is not the high-dollar type call girl, he is just a cheap prostitute...

[tnedator]

Huh?

"Sexist?" ???

Are you sniffing glue?

No. The Obama campaign didn't put out a press release after Guiliani's speech, talking about how he used a teleprompter and it was written by a speech writer. They didn't do it after Fred Thompson's speech. Not after McCain's speech, but they did after Palin's speech. Same with the news commentators.

If it wasn't sexist, then why did it make it in the Obama press release after Palin's speech, but not the male speakers?

[tnedator]

Interesting. If someone said that about Obama, would you call them racist?

A single person, I might not. It would depend on context. For instance, if only the GOP attack dogs or Fox (the only conservatively biased news agency) said it, then you could look at it simply as an attack on a liberal.

If it was done both by the McCain camp, Fox and all the liberal media, then you have to say, "do they only bring up the fact someone else wrote the speech and he provided good theater, because he is black".

So, in short, if it was a across the board, media and opposing campaign, it would be hard to not see it as a racist opinion.



No, wrong. Plain and simple. You're just too busy drinking the kool-aid.

Lets look at a non-partisan study group on this, Politifact.com.

On their outright lies, "pants on fire page" we see.... (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/rulings/pants-fire/)

4 OUTRIGHT LIES by McCain leveled at Obama.

ZERO from Obama.

1 from Biden, directed at Bush, calling him "brain dead" (I question Politifact's research on this one).

As for Obama's and McCain's general records on Politifact:

Obama (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/barack-obama/)
39 "true"
23 "mostly true"
20 "half true"
12 "barely true"
18 "false"
again, zero "pants on fire"

Only 4 of his "false" statements involved McCain, Palin, or Biden (all McCain actually).

112 total statements, 50 were something less than "mostly true". So true/false of 55.36%/44.64%.

Only 4 of his false statements attacked McCain or Palin, for a 22% share of his "false" statements.

McCain (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/john-mccain/)

25 "true"
19 "mostly true"
19 "half true"
19 "barely true"
22 "false"
again, 4 "pants on fire"

9 of his "false" are lies about Obama, 2 are about Palin.
3 of his 4 "pants on fire" accusations directly mention Obama.

108 statements. 64 containing something less than "mostly true" information. True/False percentage of 40.74%/59.26%

12 of 26 false or "pants on fire" claims directed at Obama, for a 46.15% rate of attack on his opponent.

So how exactly are both sides doing this?

Obama's campaign has yet to tell any outright bull**** about his opponent, and very few attacks were without some merit. More often than not his comments had solid truth behind them. McCain on the other hand has dedicated most of his supposed "errors" to attacking Obama, and is wrong much more often than not.

How independent the St. Petersburg times is, but I will assume they are independent.

See, this is where you being completely focused on 'your candidate' are trying to rationalize how him lieing less, telling fewer 'false' statements, means he isn't guilty of doing what ALL politicians do, which is to not let facts get in the way of a good campaign speech.

You are using data that shows Obama makes false statements, but less than McCain, as proof that your candidate doesn't do what every politician does, which is to say what it takes to get elected, regardless of whether it is truth.

Hence the reason I don't like politicians, especially career politicians like Biden and McCain.

[Bob]

Yep.

Especially when he's debating a guy who admits he doesn't "get" economics, etc.

That was one of the dumbest things McCain said during this whole process -- it was not an off-handed comment or flub -- it was an honest moment, kind of like Obama's "clinging to their guns and their religion statement."

[Bob]

We'll see but I am willing to go out on a limb and say Biden kills Palin based on experience. Obama will win but won't be a walk in the park.

I am not sure about teh Biden thing -- he is a talker, but the contrast might not help him -- if he comes out too strong, and comes accross in a mean way, I wonder about backlash of some type.

McCain and Obama can bash back and forth and I dont see anyone feeling sorry for either one of them, but their are certain topics/land mines that Biden might step inadvertantly -- by bashing small towns, motherhood, or middle America -- even indirectly people will think that Biden doesnt respect them as a group, and take it personally -- anyway that is my take.

[Bob]

Really? Come down to the wire? Ohio has swung in favor of Obama in recent state polls, meaning that now McCain needs to flip TWO out of Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Colorado without losing North Carolina, Florida, Missouri, Georgia (where Barr will throw a huge monkey wrench into the GOP's attempts there), or the current tie in Virginia.

Yeah. Its really coming down to the wire. McCain needs a huge turnaround just to make this close.

His polling now reflects greater enthusiasm within die hard republican states. He's gaining support in the deep south and Texas, from large single digit leads to double digit leads. But throughout the rest of the country he's lost ground. That's the real Palin effect.

As for unnecessary impeachments and whatnot, I'd say violating civil rights of the American people and Tea Pot Dome levels of staff corruption merits some kind of investigation, doesn't it? Surely more than a president getting his rocks off with an intern.

Why all the love? Listen -- its my opinion -- when the polls say that Repubs cant win in the past, we did -- I personally think that the polsters work things a bit, and are more concerned with getting it right a few days before teh actual election as they dont want to be seen as being way off on teh final call -- but I dont think they are above attempting to influence outcomes. If teh R's go up by 10 points I will not assume anything -- except what I think right now -- it will likely be close.

On a slighly different note --I think that the two parties have suceeded in pitting Americans against each other, and do it intentionally so they can (with slight of hand) screw the people -- while eyes are diverted toward each other. So make me the enemy if you wish -- but the sad irony is that those we disagree with ideologically would likely be many of the same folks saving your home during a natural disaster or life during a terrorist attack

[tnedator]

I personally think that the polsters work things a bit, and are more concerned with getting it right a few days before teh actual election as they dont want to be seen as being way off on teh final call -- but I dont think they are above attempting to influence outcomes.

I don't doubt some pollsters try and influence the outcomes based on the questions. We have bias in media (both directions depending on the network), so it is hard to imagine there isn't any in the polling, especially since the polls not only report how people feel, but they influence them when people read the results of polls.

Something else to consider is that there are significantly more democrats than republicans right now. I know Rassmussen calls people in line with national demographics, including the percentage of GOP, DEM and Independents. So, when they make 1,000 calls each night, something like 40% of the calls are to dems, 32% to Reps and 28% to independents.

So, based on that, you are likely to have polls favor the democratic candidate, because many people vote with their party and there are more dems than republicans.

However, this isn't so much a skewing of the results as it is a reflection of the country. Since there are more democrats, for McCain/Palin to win, they must take a significantly larger number of independents, convert over democrats, or have a significantly larger turnout of their registered voters than the Dems do (this last one is unlikely, IMO).

[Bob]

So the media across the board falling over themselves about Palin reading a speech written for her that was filled with lies (selling the state jet on ebay), half truths (opposing the bridge to nowhere before being for it), a ton of personal attacks at Obama and his wife, and ZERO policy is left wing media bias? Seriously?

[quote[So, I 'believe' that people's perception might be slightly altered by the coverage has taken place. People forget that Obama has done little but run for office since being elected to the Senate. People forget that even he has to point to running his campaign (which actually a campaign manager does) as his 'executive' experience.
Yeah, writing a bill that non-partisan groups refer to as "the gold standard" of ethics reform, writing a bi-partisan bill with Dick Lugar that locked up free nukes from Russia around the world, and doing more for veterans in four years than McCain has done in 26 years is doing nothing. Sure.

FYI, Obama's first bill passed when he was only a week into his position. He doesn't sit on his hands waiting for something to vote on, he goes out there and crafts the kind of legislation he feels is needed.


Much like the democratic primaries the math is so heavily in Obama's favor that it is laughable anyone thinks this is a close race. But just like the democratic primary the main stream media is spinning hard, and in the only direction that matters to them. To give a perception of a tight race to boost viewership and advertising dollars.

The MSM NEVER attacks McCain on the thousands of outright policy flip flops from 2000 to now, or even the republican primaries to now. They never show lengthy footage of him speaking. They throw up softball questions to him when interviewed. Its because he's the media darling here and they know if they reported on him honestly Obama would carry at least a 20% lead in every state that isn't psychotically right wing controlled. No need to hurt the cash cow with things like facts and reality.[/QUOTE]

Did you hear about her monitor continuing to run during teh applause? So she was able to pull of a very good speech, and it doesnt mean all that much really -- Obama speaks well too, but we dont hear as much of teh condescention of his great speech writers afterward..

[defenseman]

It isn't sexist at all. Nearly every network mentioned that Biden's speech was solid though he was clearly not comfortable with Obama's campaign speech writers. Even coverage for a man and a woman.

The only difference now is that while in previous years everyone assumed they were all from speech writers. Obama changed the game because he writes many of his own speeches. When the media commented on it the follow of up then clarifying that no one else does that was required to preserve journalistic integrity.


What Obama has done in both the U.S. and State Senates:

- The Obama/Feingold bill. Obama Was A Key Player In Assembling And Passing The 2007 Ethics Reform Law, Which Curbed The Influence Of Lobbyists And Was Described As The "Most Sweeping Since Watergate."

- In 2006, Obama was an original cosponsor of a bill to create a "Google-like" database of information on federal spending. So Americans can see where their money goes. He got it passed. The database is here.

- Obama Passed Into Law Legislation Requiring Lobbyists To Disclose Their Bundling Activity, Making Him Unpopular Even Among Other Democrats. Obama sponsored an amendment to require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged. Obama's amendment was passed by unanimous consent and attached to the Senate ethics bill, which was signed into law on September 15, 2007.

- Obama Passed Illinois Campaign Finance Reform, "Heralded As the Most Sweeping Good-Government Legislation in Decades." In 1998, Obama passed the Illinois Gift Ban that prohibited legislators, state officers and employees, and judges from soliciting or receiving gifts from a person or entity with interests affected by government.

- Obama Passed Law Requiring Comprehensive Nuclear Threat Reduction Strategy To Secure Weapons And Usable Nuclear Material. Senator Obama worked with Republican Senator Hagel on this law. The Obama-Hagel provision is aimed at preventing nuclear terrorism.

- Obama Passed Legislation To Keep Weapons Of Mass Destruction Out Of The Hands Of Terrorists. In 2006, Obama was an original co-sponsor of legislation to expand U.S. cooperation to destroy conventional weapons. It also expands the State Department's ability to detect and interdict weapons and materials of mass destruction. The legislation was included in an appropriations bill that was later signed into law by the president.

- Obama Passed Law to Promote Relief, Security, and Democracy in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

- Obama Passed Bipartisan Legislation That Expanded Health Care Coverage To 154,000 Residents, Including 70,000 Children. In 2004, Obama sponsored and helped pass legislation that expanded and made permanent Illinois' KidCare program so that all children in Illinois have healthcare.

- Obama Passed A Bill To Create Hospital Report Cards To Assist Consumers; The Bill Was Sponsored By Members Of Both Parties. Obama was the chief sponsor of Hospital Report Card Act.

- Obama Passed An Amendment Into Law That Pressured The EPA to Comply With New Lead-Paint Regulations After Seven Years of Delay. In 2005, Obama passed an amendment, which became law, to the FY 2006 Department of Interior Appropriations Act prohibiting the use of funds in the bill to delay or contravene implementation of an existing but unmet statutory requirement passed by Congress in 1992 that the EPA rewrite regulations on dispersal of lead paint by home remodeling contractors by October 1996. This law protects children!

- Obama Passed A Law Requiring The Defense Secretary To Report On The Pentagon's Efforts To Prepare For Military And Civilian Personnel For A Possible Influenza Outbreak.

- Obama Passed Legislation Providing $25 Million In Funding For Avian Flu Research And Containment Efforts. Obama's amendment called for a stockpile of antiviral drugs and necessary medical supplies to combat and contain an outbreak.

- Obama Passed Health Care Justice Act. In 2004, Obama was chief sponsor of bill creating the Health Care Justice Act, providing that the State of Illinois shall implement a health care access plan that provides uniform benefits for all Illinois residents.

- Obama Passed Legislation Creating A Tax Credit For The Installation Of E-85 Fuel Pumps. Under Obama's legislation, gas stations would get a tax credit to install equipment accommodating E-85 - an ethanol-based fuel alternative that its promoters say is up to 50 cents cheaper per gallon than unleaded gasoline.

- Obama Passed An Amendment Into Law To Fund Research For Hybrid/Flex Fuel Vehicles.

- Obama Passed Into Law An Amendment Establishing A Grant Program To Support Summer Curricula That Emphasize Math And Problem Solving. In 2007, Obama sponsored an amendment, which became law, to the America Competes Act that established a competitive state grant program to support summer learning opportunities with curricula that emphasize mathematics and problem solving.

- Obama Passed An Amendment, Which Became Law, Preventing The VA From Conducting A Review Of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Cases Aimed At Reducing Benefits.

- Obama Passed Legislation, Which Became Law, Improving And Increasing Services For Homeless Veterans. Obama's SAVE Act and Homes for Heroes Act.

- Obama Passed Legislation Extending Tax Credits For Military Families By Allowing Service Members Deployed In War Zones To Apply Non-Taxable Combat Pay To The EITC.

- Obama Passed An Amendment, Which Became Law, To Require The VA To Conduct A Campaign To Inform Disabled Vets Of Disparities In Compensation And Explaining Their Rights To Seek Review.

- Obama Passed Death Penalty Overhaul Package. Obama was the chief co-sponsor of the Capital Punishment Reform Study Committee Act, which would let judges rule out a death sentence for someone convicted solely on the testimony of a jailhouse informant, accomplice or single witness.

- Obama Passed Law To Require Videotaped Interrogations In Capital Cases. This law helps prosecutors prove that confessions were not coerced.

- Obama Passed Law Creating $100 Million Earned Income Tax Credit, Formed A Political Alliance Of Republicans And Democrats To Pass The EITC. Obama sponsored and passed a bill that amended the Illinois Income Tax Act to create the earned income tax credit.

- Obama Passed Law Creating The Illinois Temporary Assistance For Needy Families Program. Obama was a chief co-sponsor of the bill, which created flexibility for victims of domestic violence, set a five-year limit for receiving public assistance, banned anyone convicted of a serious drug-related Class X or Class 1 felony from ever receiving assistance, required that all recipients develop a personal plan for self-sufficiency, and listing the steps they will take to move from welfare to work.

- Obama Passed A Bill Requiring Advance Notice Of Mass Layoff And Plant Closings. Obama was the chief sponsor of the bill requiring employers to give 60 days advance notice of mass layoffs or plant closings to state officials to ensure timely unemployment assistance for workers.

- Obama Passed Whistle-Blower Protection Law. Obama was the chief co-sponsor of the bill, which prevents employers from prohibiting an employee from disclosing information to a government or law enforcement agency if the employee has reasonable cause to believe that the information discloses a violation of State or federal law.

- Obama Sponsored Law To Protect Overtime Pay To Counter Bush Restrictions. Obama was the chief sponsor of a new law that exempted Illinois from the new federal overtime rules and protected overtime pay for thousands of our state's workers.

- Obama Passed Legislation Prohibiting the Department of Homeland Security From Entering Into Open-Ended, No-Bid Contracts For Emergency Response Activities. Senator Obama worked with Republican Senator Coburn on this legislation, which will stop the abuse of no-bid contracting in the aftermath of a disaster.

- Obama Passed An Amendment Into Law Creating A National Family Locator System. In 2006, Obama passed an amendment to the Fiscal Year 2007 Homeland Security Appropriations Act that required the Department of Homeland Security to create a centralized family locator system through which family members can contact their lost loved ones during disasters. The amendment, which was signed into law as part of the final version of the bill, was based on legislation Obama introduced immediately after Hurricane Katrina.




No, wrong. Plain and simple. You're just too busy drinking the kool-aid.

Lets look at a non-partisan study group on this, Politifact.com.

On their outright lies, "pants on fire page" we see.... (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/rulings/pants-fire/)

4 OUTRIGHT LIES by McCain leveled at Obama.

ZERO from Obama.

1 from Biden, directed at Bush, calling him "brain dead" (I question Politifact's research on this one).

As for Obama's and McCain's general records on Politifact:

Obama (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/barack-obama/)
39 "true"
23 "mostly true"
20 "half true"
12 "barely true"
18 "false"
again, zero "pants on fire"

Only 4 of his "false" statements involved McCain, Palin, or Biden (all McCain actually).

112 total statements, 50 were something less than "mostly true". So true/false of 55.36%/44.64%.

Only 4 of his false statements attacked McCain or Palin, for a 22% share of his "false" statements.

McCain (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/john-mccain/)

25 "true"
19 "mostly true"
19 "half true"
19 "barely true"
22 "false"
again, 4 "pants on fire"

9 of his "false" are lies about Obama, 2 are about Palin.
3 of his 4 "pants on fire" accusations directly mention Obama.

108 statements. 64 containing something less than "mostly true" information. True/False percentage of 40.74%/59.26%

12 of 26 false or "pants on fire" claims directed at Obama, for a 46.15% rate of attack on his opponent.

So how exactly are both sides doing this?

Obama's campaign has yet to tell any outright bull**** about his opponent, and very few attacks were without some merit. More often than not his comments had solid truth behind them. McCain on the other hand has dedicated most of his supposed "errors" to attacking Obama, and is wrong much more often than not.

We can all count, and the same exercise can be accomplished at obama's expense vice to his advantage. Bottom line is, he's a lawyer senator who has done nothing of real significance compared to a governor who really did some stuff. I'll give obama credit on two points, he gives a great speech and he votes "present" better than anyone I know...dman

[Hogan11]

I am not sure about teh Biden thing -- he is a talker, but the contrast might not help him -- if he comes out too strong, and comes accross in a mean way, I wonder about backlash of some type.

McCain and Obama can bash back and forth and I dont see anyone feeling sorry for either one of them, but their are certain topics/land mines that Biden might step inadvertantly -- by bashing small towns, motherhood, or middle America -- even indirectly people will think that Biden doesnt respect them as a group, and take it personally -- anyway that is my take.

As vicious as she's been....I don't see any backlash at all.

Remember Biden has experience dealing with the gender issue and Palin is far from the formidable Hillary Clinton.

[defenseman]

As vicious as she's been....I don't see any backlash at all.

Remember Biden has experience dealing with the gender issue and Palin is far from the formidable Hillary Clinton.

Keep thinking that, and I hope Biden thinks the same. Underestimating your opponent, ESPECIALLY in politics, get's your head handed to you. Vicious? You don't know what vicous is, and, it's not Palin....dman

*Slicing and dicing WITH a smile and comic relief is an art form yes, but far from vicious.

[TheDave]

As vicious as she's been....I don't see any backlash at all.

Remember Biden has experience dealing with the gender issue and Palin is far from the formidable Hillary Clinton.

I love how everyone has forgotten this... All of the democratic hopefulls spent several months dealing with this issue.

That and lets not kid ourselves... Palin couldn't hold Hillary's bra strap.

[Mr.Meanie]

If it was done both by the McCain camp, Fox and all the liberal media, then you have to say, "do they only bring up the fact someone else wrote the speech and he provided good theater, because he is black".

The problem with your theory is that no one was saying she was only reading someone else's speech because she's female. They were saying she's been prepped and packaged by the same political machine that packaged Bush. It really had absolutely nothing to do with gender.

I don't get the "sexist" part...

[TheDave]

Keep thinking that, and I hope Biden thinks the same. Underestimating your opponent, ESPECIALLY in politics, get's your head handed to you. Vicious? You don't know what vicous is, and, it's not Palin....dman

*Slicing and dicing WITH a smile and comic relief is an art form yes, but far from vicious.

You keep the faith Dman... Keep the faith.

[Hogan11]

Keep thinking that, and I hope Biden thinks the same. Underestimating your opponent, ESPECIALLY in politics, get's your head handed to you. Vicious? You don't know what vicous is, and, it's not Palin....dman

*Slicing and dicing WITH a smile and comic relief is an art form yes, but far from vicious.

It was vicious sarcasm....designed to get the mean spirited base on board.

I'm interested to see what she can do when a real issue is placed in front of her. If she tries to pass over it with that sardonic hockey Mom stuff, Biden will wipe the floor with her.

[mhgaffney]

The fact that McCain is tied with Obama at this stage -- really must make you wonder about the Democrats.

After 8 years of Bush, economic collapse, a failing dollar, endless wars that now threaten to spill over into Pakistan, Iran, and now Russia...

not to mention all of Bush's crimes -- his usurping of the US Constitution, his spying on US citizens, the Patriot Act, torture, the phony war on terror --- on and on --

At this stage Obama should be leading McCain by at least 30 points.

The fact the candidates are tied -- tells us that the Democratic Party is a failed party -- not a true opposition party -- but merely the liberal wing of the Repuklicans...

Obama's VP choice smacks of M Dukakis. Are the Dems trying to lose?

In short, our political culture is terminally non functional There is no viable alternative -- because the powers that be won't allow it.

The future looks like more of the same: war without end.

It looks like the only alternative left to sane people of good will is revolution. Remember what T. Jefferson said: "A revolution every 20 years..."

OK, so how do we pull it off?

MHG

[Spider]

The fact that McCain is tied with Obama at this stage -- really must make you wonder about the Democrats.

After 8 years of Bush, economic collapse, a failing dollar, endless wars that now threaten to spill over into Pakistan, Iran, and now Russia...

not to mention all of Bush's crimes -- his usurping of the US Constitution, his spying on US citizens, the Patriot Act, torture, the phony war on terror --- on and on --

At this stage Obama should be leading McCain by at least 30 points.

The fact the candidates are tied -- tells us that the Democratic Party is a failed party -- not a true opposition party -- but merely the liberal wing of the Repuklicans...

Obama's VP choice smacks of M Dukakis. Are the Dems trying to lose?

In short, our political culture is terminally non functional There is no viable alternative -- because the powers that be won't allow it.

The future looks like more of the same: war without end.

It looks like the only alternative left to sane people of good will is revolution. Remember what T. Jefferson said: "A revolution every 20 years..."

OK, so how do we pull it off?

MHG

So in your professional opinion .Should Obama use Mini Nukes on McCain and his followers ?

[TheDave]

So in your professional opinion .Should Obama use Mini Nukes on McCain and his followers ?


That would be one way to start a revolution... :thumbs:

[mhgaffney]

Spider,

When you consider that a McCain victory means 100 years of war -- and must lead to a nuclear showdown with Russia and probably global thermo nuclear war --

you think this is funny?

If you think this and the current terminal state of US politics is humorous, then, you should have your big rig license revoked - because it means you are seriously deranged.

MHG

ps: Now let us all laugh together -- lest we cry.

[Spider]

Spider,

When you consider that a McCain victory means 100 years of war -- and must lead to a nuclear showdown with Russia and probably global thermo nuclear war --

you think this is funny?

If you think this and the current terminal state of US politics is humorous, then, you should have your big rig license revoked - because it means you are seriously deranged.
Gee was it something i said ?

MHG

ps: Now let us all laugh together -- lest we cry.
we get the government we deserve , When you got idiots claiming Obama will raise taxes on everyone , and he was sworn in office on a Koran , or Some simpleton saying 12,00 flags were just thrown away , Come to find out they was stolen , We let these people run around in our society with all rights ,,,,,,,were pretty much ****ed ......... so now about those mini nukes

[TheDave]

Spider,

When you consider that a McCain victory means 100 years of war -- and must lead to a nuclear showdown with Russia and probably global thermo nuclear war --

you think this is funny?

If you think this and the current terminal state of US politics is humorous, then, you should have your big rig license revoked - because it means you are seriously deranged.
MHG

ps: Now let us all laugh together -- lest we cry.

Oh the irony...

[scttgrd]

This looks alot like the 1980 election, Carter and Regan were close till the end. But when things shook out it was a regan landslide. I don't think there will any kind of landslide but I think Obama will win and the states in play will go democrats way.

[TheDave]

This looks alot like the 1980 election, Carter and Regan were close till the end. But when things shook out it was a regan landslide. I don't think there will any kind of landslide but I think Obama will win and the states in play will go democrats way.

Assuming Obama and/or Biden don't do something incredibly stupid in the next few weeks... this is going to be a landslide on near historic levels. 70% of the population feels that the current administration is doing a terrible job. Quotes of McCain saying that he has voted with and supported this president more than anyone else are already in campaign adds. There is a reason the entire GOP convention was trying to distance themsleves from Bush... Unfortunately for them Obama isn't going to let that happen.

Prior to the Palin selection i thought this would be a close race. That selection and the half assed vetting process that came with it told me all i needed to know... Desperate times called for desperate measures. The GOP knows this is a loosing battle. Baring a miracle this thing is over.

[tnedator]

The problem with your theory is that no one was saying she was only reading someone else's speech because she's female. They were saying she's been prepped and packaged by the same political machine that packaged Bush. It really had absolutely nothing to do with gender.

I don't get the "sexist" part...

Fox is the right-wing media, remember? They brought it up, along with every other network. It was in news articles, and of course in Obama's press release.

Everyone get's prepped, but it is only the small town girl where the press make a big deal out of her having a speech writer and using a teleprompter.

[Hogan11]

Assuming Obama and/or Biden don't do something incredibly stupid in the next few weeks... this is going to be a landslide on near historic levels. 70% of the population feels that the current administration is doing a terrible job. Quotes of McCain saying that he has voted with and supported this president more than anyone else are already in campaign adds. There is a reason the entire GOP convention was trying to distance themsleves from Bush... Unfortunately for them Obama isn't going to let that happen.

Prior to the Palin selection i thought this would be a close race. That selection and the half assed vetting process that came with it told me all i needed to know... Desperate times called for desperate measures. The GOP knows this is a loosing battle. Baring a miracle this thing is over.

No matter what McCain or the RNC try to shift focus to..if Obama stays on the economy as his main point, he wins. Not a landslide mind you, because most states are polarized, but the swing states will go blue if he keeps the focus on the economy.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Assuming Obama and/or Biden don't do something incredibly stupid in the next few weeks... this is going to be a landslide on near historic levels. 70% of the population feels that the current administration is doing a terrible job. Quotes of McCain saying that he has voted with and supported this president more than anyone else are already in campaign adds. There is a reason the entire GOP convention was trying to distance themsleves from Bush... Unfortunately for them Obama isn't going to let that happen.

Prior to the Palin selection i thought this would be a close race. That selection and the half assed vetting process that came with it told me all i needed to know... Desperate times called for desperate measures. The GOP knows this is a loosing battle. Baring a miracle this thing is over.

I like your optimism and I certainly hope you're right, but I'm not going to underestimate the triumvirate of Rove, the corporate media, and Diebold.

Last time around it was swift boat vets, CBS memo, etc., 24/7, constant distraction from the issues, and massive fraud at the polls.

[Drek]

We can all count, and the same exercise can be accomplished at obama's expense vice to his advantage. Bottom line is, he's a lawyer senator who has done nothing of real significance compared to a governor who really did some stuff. I'll give obama credit on two points, he gives a great speech and he votes "present" better than anyone I know...dman

Did you even read the above points?

He's passed some of the most important bills in the last 4 years. A bill to get nukes out of terrorist hands. An ethics reform bill that kicks the **** out of McCain/Feingold, which is John McCain's big bi-partisan trumpet (and totally worthless). A bill that has created a full disclosure database of who is spending our money and where they're sending it, creating the most transparent fiscal system for our government in history (and one that happens to expose Palin as a pork barrel grubbing liar to anyone who takes 5 minutes to run a search).

A junior senator from Illinois has passed more bills of merit in his four years than John McCain in that same time. He's passed more bills than many senators even WRITE in that amount of time.

Keep singing that "no experience" angle. That hasn't stopped him from being one of the strongest voices on reform in Washington the last four years, without nearly the political clout he'll have come January.

As for the true/false numbers, all you right wingers (tnedor especially) should read what I actually wrote.

Not ONCE has Obama stated an outright boldfaced lie about McCain. McCain has done it three times. Not once has Obama lied to make Biden's record look good. McCain has done that for Palin twice.

Everyone makes factual errors when doing this many public speaking engagements. Its where those errors are directed that reveals the character of a champaign. Not only does Obama's campaign have significantly less errors, they have nowhere near as many that just happen to be about McCain or his policies.

McCain doesn't open his mouth for more than 10 minutes without telling some sort of falsehood regarding Obama's policies. You REALLY think this is a balanced same old politics back and forth?

Obama is running on issues, McCain is running on fear of Obama.

[Bronco Bob]

Fox is the right-wing media, remember? They brought it up, along with every other network. It was in news articles, and of course in Obama's press release.

Everyone get's prepped, but it is only the small town girl where the press make a big deal out of her having a speech writer and using a teleprompter.

So you are convinced if this were a small town boy who was equally as
unprepared the so-called liberal press wouldn't be saying a word about it.

[tnedator]

So you are convinced if this were a small town boy who was equally as
unprepared the so-called liberal press wouldn't be saying a word about it.

Of course they would be talking about qualifications, as the conservatives are rightly questioning Obama's.

However, if it wasn't for her being a small town girl, you wouldn't have both conservative (Fox) and liberal (CNN, MSNBC, NBC, CBS and ABC) pointing out the fact she can 'read' a speech well of a teleprompter that someone else wrote. They just don't do that **** normally in political coverage.

[TheDave]

I like your optimism and I certainly hope you're right, but I'm not going to underestimate the triumvirate of Rove, the corporate media, and Diebold.

Last time around it was swift boat vets, CBS memo, etc., 24/7, constant distraction from the issues, and massive fraud at the polls.

Do not forget how despised the current administration is... Obama's camp has done a good job of hanging that albatross around McCains neck. So much so that the entire RNC not only pretended that Bush didn't exist they even went as far as pretending they were not republicans. This current religous based GOP movement is dead. Even Joe Scarborough spent some time the other day talking about how the GOP he use to be part of no longer exists and has been taken over by a bunch of zealots.

The Republicans needs a massive ass kicking to give them a chance to re-invent themselves. Go back to the small government, fiscal conservatives and dump the social zealots that have hijacked this party since the Reagan days. Everyone knows this... including the GOP.

[Bob]

I love how everyone has forgotten this... All of the democratic hopefulls spent several months dealing with this issue.

That and lets not kid ourselves... Palin couldn't hold Hillary's bra strap.

Of course you are assuming that Hilary wears a bra...

[TheDave]

Of course you are assuming that Hilary wears a bra...


Spider told me she did... ;D

[Drek]

Of course they would be talking about qualifications, as the conservatives are rightly questioning Obama's.

However, if it wasn't for her being a small town girl, you wouldn't have both conservative (Fox) and liberal (CNN, MSNBC, NBC, CBS and ABC) pointing out the fact she can 'read' a speech well of a teleprompter that someone else wrote. They just don't do that **** normally in political coverage.

Typically its assumed.

As I said before, Obama writes his own speeches and that changes the qualifications the press have to make.

The same qualifications were said about Biden, and often referenced as a problem with his speech, that he didn't feel 100% comfortable with the language Obama's people provided him with.

So how is it sexist when both a man and a woman, running for the same position, have had the exact same comments made about their acceptance speeches?

Obama changed the perception, it'd be disingenuous of the press to acknowledge that he writes his own speeches but not qualify the other candidates' speeches as being prepared for them.

[tnedator]

Typically its assumed.

As I said before, Obama writes his own speeches and that changes the qualifications the press have to make.

The same qualifications were said about Biden, and often referenced as a problem with his speech, that he didn't feel 100% comfortable with the language Obama's people provided him with.

So how is it sexist when both a man and a woman, running for the same position, have had the exact same comments made about their acceptance speeches?

Obama changed the perception, it'd be disingenuous of the press to acknowledge that he writes his own speeches but not qualify the other candidates' speeches as being prepared for them.

Your question was rhetorical, since continuing to repeat what I have already said will not change your opinion. So, let's agree to disagree on the subject.

[Drek]

Your question was rhetorical, since continuing to repeat what I have already said will not change your opinion. So, let's agree to disagree on the subject.

No. This isn't an opinion matter.

This is you pulling **** out of your right wing ass. Like you've done since you started posting here just a few weeks back.

You said Obama has passed almost no legislation, I proved that he's passed more legislation in his time as senator than nearly anyone else, despite being on the campaign trail much of that time.

You said mud slinging was coming from both sides so it wasn't a big deal that the GOP is spreading outright lies about Obama's policies. I proved that not once has Obama told a bold faced lie, that McCain had done so about Obama 3 times, and that the number of inaccurate statements McCain said directed at Obama grossly outweighed those by Obama towards McCain.

You basically have no clue but you're a die hard party guy and so you just stick your head in the sand when you're proven grossly wrong.

[Spider]

No. This isn't an opinion matter.

This is you pulling **** out of your right wing ass. Like you've done since you started posting here just a few weeks back.

You said Obama has passed almost no legislation, I proved that he's passed more legislation in his time as senator than nearly anyone else, despite being on the campaign trail much of that time.

You said mud slinging was coming from both sides so it wasn't a big deal that the GOP is spreading outright lies about Obama's policies. I proved that not once has Obama told a bold faced lie, that McCain had done so about Obama 3 times, and that the number of inaccurate statements McCain said directed at Obama grossly outweighed those by Obama towards McCain.

You basically have no clue but you're a die hard party guy and so you just stick your head in the sand when you're proven grossly wrong.

LOL ...... I tried to help him , TNED is a good guy , but the **** he comes up with , then the denial ..

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No. This isn't an opinion matter.

This is you pulling **** out of your right wing ass. Like you've done since you started posting here just a few weeks back.

You said Obama has passed almost no legislation, I proved that he's passed more legislation in his time as senator than nearly anyone else, despite being on the campaign trail much of that time.

You said mud slinging was coming from both sides so it wasn't a big deal that the GOP is spreading outright lies about Obama's policies. I proved that not once has Obama told a bold faced lie, that McCain had done so about Obama 3 times, and that the number of inaccurate statements McCain said directed at Obama grossly outweighed those by Obama towards McCain.

You basically have no clue but you're a die hard party guy and so you just stick your head in the sand when you're proven grossly wrong.

Hammer, nail, head. :yep:

He's little more than a RNC spambot working from the "repeat a lie often enough and it will sound like the truth" playbook.

[tnedator]

No. This isn't an opinion matter.

This is you pulling **** out of your right wing ass. Like you've done since you started posting here just a few weeks back.

You said Obama has passed almost no legislation, I proved that he's passed more legislation in his time as senator than nearly anyone else, despite being on the campaign trail much of that time.

You said mud slinging was coming from both sides so it wasn't a big deal that the GOP is spreading outright lies about Obama's policies. I proved that not once has Obama told a bold faced lie, that McCain had done so about Obama 3 times, and that the number of inaccurate statements McCain said directed at Obama grossly outweighed those by Obama towards McCain.

You basically have no clue but you're a die hard party guy and so you just stick your head in the sand when you're proven grossly wrong.

No, you proved nothing.

You proved that something close to 50% of Obama's statements (going from memory from your post yesterday) were some degree of 'false', but that was 'better' than McCain. Oh, gee, Obama lies LESS than other politicians in this campaign.

Obama has had two bills that he has authored actually get passed, which is a 1.5% success rate (compared to 10-20% senate wide).

You guys keep trying to label me a right-wing party follower, when I am just about the only person on in WPR that points out the obvious faults in both sides (I'm guessing the other reasonable people have left, since they realize that it is an exercise in futility dealing with zealots).

[tnedator]

LOL ...... I tried to help him , TNED is a good guy , but the **** he comes up with , then the denial ..

Speaking of zealots...

Hammer, nail, head.

He's little more than a RNC spambot working from the "repeat a lie often enough and it will sound like the truth" playbook.

Speaking of zealots, part deux...

Pretty hillarious that you would accuse anyone else of 'repeating lies', Mr. Parrot.

Can't believe you actually posted something without having a hissy and screaming, "straw man.. uh, oh, you're a straw man.... blah, blah... STRAW MAN..."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Speaking of zealots...



Speaking of zealots, part deux...

Pretty hillarious that you would accuse anyone else of 'repeating lies', Mr. Parrot.

Can't believe you actually posted something without having a hissy and screaming, "straw man.. uh, oh, you're a straw man.... blah, blah... STRAW MAN..."

There you go with another one of your typical "I am rubber - you are glue" responses with zero substance.

It's been fun watching so many posters mop the floor with you, but now your warmed-over Limbaughisms are just getting tedious.

[tnedator]

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[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No. This isn't an opinion matter.

This is you pulling **** out of your right wing ass. Like you've done since you started posting here just a few weeks back.

You said Obama has passed almost no legislation, I proved that he's passed more legislation in his time as senator than nearly anyone else, despite being on the campaign trail much of that time.

You said mud slinging was coming from both sides so it wasn't a big deal that the GOP is spreading outright lies about Obama's policies. I proved that not once has Obama told a bold faced lie, that McCain had done so about Obama 3 times, and that the number of inaccurate statements McCain said directed at Obama grossly outweighed those by Obama towards McCain.

You basically have no clue but you're a die hard party guy and so you just stick your head in the sand when you're proven grossly wrong.

:rofl:

Watching him lie, spin, defelct, and generally try to weasel his way out of acknowledging the fatcs is amusing, I must admit.

He's a product of the Faux News paradigm: the truth is whatever you want it to be - facts don't matter.

[tnedator]

There you go with another one of your typical "I am rubber - you are glue" responses with zero substance.

It's been fun watching so many posters mop the floor with you, but now your warmed-over Limbaughisms are just getting tedious.

Now you know how idiotic you sound when you just repeat "straw man" over and over. You look like a 10 year old poster when you do that.

Discuss the issues. Be open minded. Don't resort to childish attacks.

Honesty and Integrity, you should try it some time.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Now you know how idiotic you sound when you just repeat "straw man" over and over. You look like a 10 year old poster when you do that.

Do you have any idea how idiotic you sound when you use straw man arguments over and over?

Or how just plain nutty you sound when you suggest that my habit of calling you on these straw man arguments somehow discredits me?



Honesty and Integrity, you should try it some time.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

This from a guy who is an inveterate shill for a thoroughly disgraced, corrupt party and a presidential ticket that is fueled by lies?

That's about as ironic as it gets. :giggle:

[tnedator]

Do you have any idea how idiotic you sound when you use straw man arguments over and over?

Or how just plain nutty you sound when you suggest that my habit of calling you on these straw man arguments somehow discredits me?



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

This from a guy who is an inveterate shill for a thoroughly disgraced, corrupt party and a presidential ticket that is fueled by lies?

That's about as ironic as it gets. :giggle:

Wow, I haven't heard you say all of this before. Ever consider actually DISCUSSING topics rather than just tossing insults?

Didn't think so....

[Drek]

Wow, I haven't heard you say all of this before. Ever consider actually DISCUSSING topics rather than just tossing insults?

Didn't think so....

I'm all for discussion, but you run away when I tear down your straw men, or go into the head in the sand, facts don't work here mindset.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Wow, I haven't heard you say all of this before.

Obviously not.


Ever consider actually DISCUSSING topics rather than just tossing insults?

Didn't think so....

Your track record for insulting people, i.e., resorting to expletive-laden personal attacks and name-calling, outstrips mine - even in your brief time on this forum.

And it's pointless to try to discuss anything with a GOP shill who refuses to admit when the facts aren't on his side or when reality doesn't match his perceptions or his claims.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm all for discussion, but you run away when I tear down your straw men, or go into the head in the sand, facts don't work here mindset.

Exactly.

And then he pretends that his opponents' exposure of his straw man arguments somehow reflects negatively on them. :crazy:

[tnedator]

I'm all for discussion, but you run away when I tear down your straw men, or go into the head in the sand, facts don't work here mindset.

Your facts is that Obama only having 50% or so of his statements being partially to completely false is equal to him not being the standard politician that doesn't let the truth get in the way of his campaign speech.

Do you honestly not see the huge, gaping hole in your logic? Honestly, do you not see it?

[tnedator]

Exactly.

And then he pretends that his opponents' exposure of his straw man arguments somehow reflects negatively on them. :crazy:

Ok, you have called me out on these so called 'straw man' arguments about 15 times. Please list them and explain 'why' you think they are straw man arguments.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ok, you have called me out on these so called 'straw man' arguments about 15 times. Please list them and explain 'why' you think they are straw man arguments.

Been there/done that with your statement that suggested only Obama supporters disapproved of Bush's failed economic policies.

When you are caught in a lie, you simply deny, deflect, and backpedal.

[tnedator]

Been there/done that with your statement that suggested only Obama supporters disapproved of Bush's failed economic policies.

When you are caught in a lie, you simply deny, deflect, and backpedal.

First, I never 'implied' what you said I 'implied'. You may very well have misunderstood what I very clearly stated, but that doesn't make your misunderstanding any more accurate.

Second, show me the other dozen plus and WHY they are straw man arguments. I do not believe I have done so, and if I have it has been unintentional.

I believe you guys are so used to talking over the top of each other and all being completely immovable, that you don't even look at what is actually typed, you just write it off based on the categories you put people in (both sides).

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

First, I never 'implied' what you said I 'implied'.

See?

This is why attempts at discussion with you are futile: when caught lying or being wrong about something, you simply respond with denial.

[tnedator]

See?

This is why attempts at discussion with you are futile: when caught lying or being wrong about something, you simply respond with denial.

Now you are the one using logical fallacies...

LABF: "I already caught you in a lie, therefore it is worthless to try and discuss anything with you"

Where that fails is that I didn't lie. I stated that not everyone buys into Obama's propoganda. Very clear statement. No matter how many times you misrepresent it.

So, once again, even if we are to assume that on that one statement that you were confused, or I mistated, show me the other dozen plus and explain WHY they are 'straw man' arguments.

You talk about facts, back up your accusations with facts.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Now you are the one using logical fallacies...

LABF: "I already caught you in a lie, therefore it is worthless to try and discuss anything with you"

No.

You have established a pattern of lying and trying to weasel your way out of admitting when you have your facts wrong.

Your recent exchanges with Drek are perfect examples of what I'm talking about.

You are fast establishing yourself as the boy who cried wolf.

Where that fails is that I didn't lie. I stated that not everyone buys into Obama's propoganda. Very clear statement. No matter how many times you misrepresent it.

See?

There you go distorting what actually happened again.

Your statement was a response to my indictment of Bush's economic policies.

You said "not everyone buys the Obama propaganda" - implying that only Obama supporters shared my perceptions or supported my claims re: Bush's economic policies.

So, once again, even if we are to assume that on that one statement that you were confused, or I mistated, show me the other dozen plus and explain WHY they are 'straw man' arguments.

You talk about facts, back up your accusations with facts.

As I just mentioned, your exchanges with Drek re: lies told by the candidates on the campaign trail are chock-full of such arguments, if you need some recent examples.

Anyone can read these.

[tnedator]

No.

You have established a pattern of lying and trying to weasel your way out of admitting when you have your facts wrong.

Your recent exchanges with Drek are perfect examples of what I'm talking about.

You are fast establishing yourself as the boy who cried wolf.



See?

There you go distorting what actually happened again.

Your statement was a response to my indictment of Bush's economic policies.

You said "not everyone buys the Obama propaganda" - implying that only Obama supporters shared my perceptions or supported my claims re: Bush's economic policies.



As I just mentioned, your exchanges with Drek re: lies told by the candidates on the campaign trail are chock-full of such arguments, if you need some recent examples.

Anyone can read these.

In other words, you can't come up with these straw man arguments and you are not going to let the truth get in the way of your rhetoric.

Gotcha :thumbsup:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

In other words, you can't come up with these straw man arguments and you are not going to let the truth get in the way of your rhetoric.

Gotcha :thumbsup:

In other words, you have chosen to ignore my last post and pretend it doesn't exist.

That's the republican way, I guess. :oyvey:

[tnedator]

In other words, you have chosen to ignore my last post and pretend it doesn't exist.

That's the republican way, I guess. :oyvey:

Your last post is like every other one. You call me a liar. If I try and explain anything, you say, "see, just like I said, you're a liar".

You don't have any desire to discuss anything, you are a spin artist that would make slick willy proud. That's the liberal way, I guess :thumbsup:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Your last post is like every other one. You call me a liar. If I try and explain anything, you say, "see, just like I said, you're a liar".

You don't have any desire to discuss anything, you are a spin artist that would make slick willy proud. That's the liberal way, I guess :thumbsup:

More sound and fury, signifying nothing on your part.

Just the sort of thing we've come to expect from the right these past eight years.

[tnedator]

Just the sort of thing we've come to expect from the right these past eight years.

And, in one sentence, you sum up why it is impossible for anyone to 'discuss' or 'debate' anything with you. You stereotype and pre-judge and once you have put people in their place (with you or against you), you simply attack them, rather than debate the issues.

I guess whatever gets you through the day.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

And, in one sentence, you sum up why it is impossible for anyone to 'discuss' or 'debate' anything with you. You stereotype and pre-judge and once you have put people in their place (with you or against you), you simply attack them, rather than debate the issues.

I guess whatever gets you through the day.

Typical "I am rubber - you are glue" response.

I guess this is sort of thing is all the radical right has left in the tank at this juncture.

No surprise there.

[tnedator]

Typical "I am rubber - you are glue" response.

I guess this is sort of thing is all the radical right has left in the tank at this juncture.

No surprise there.

If you think I am the 'radical right', well, I just don't even know what to say to that. Wow.