BabyGateII Confirmed - Bristol Palin Is Pregnant Now

[tnedator]

No but it kind of takes care of the abortion option .. or do you still need a few more minutes to catch up

So, your position is NOBODY gets pregnant while on the pill and has to decide to either keep the baby or have an abortion.

[tnedator]

Southern English ? sure .......... Bubba Junior get the hell off your sister like that , she isnt 13 yet ;D

So, what your saying is that you were just taking some kind of shot at me, for being honest about my position on political issues.

Real classy.

[Spider]

So, your position is NOBODY gets pregnant while on the pill and has to decide to either keep the baby or have an abortion.

I didnt say nobody , but you are flipping out over 2% , so I can narrow that 2% down with legit questions , now stop reading stuff that isnt there ...... maybe you have some really strong sweet tea

[defenseman]

Your missing the point Dman... no one is going to go after the daughter.

Her mother is a very different story.

Her mother forced her daughter? Her mother is screwed up because her daughter made a mistake like this? AAAAH....I see all of you liberals are in your perfect little world, never make mistakes and have carte blanche for moral judgements. RIGHT....this does NOTHING to Palin, zero. ANY, repeat, ANY reporter that tries to spin this against Palin will get it shoved up where the sun don't shine, bank on it...dman

*Alot of you fellas have zero class, got to let you know that. Zero, nada.....really sad and quite disgusting.

[Miss I.]

What drugs are you taking? Plus, i doubt Obama will say a peep on this. The story speaks for itself.
Just to be fair, Obama did actually speak to it. Here's one citation.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/01/obama.palin/index.html?section=cnn_latest
As for this whole pregnancy thing, it is not worth addressing, either the current one or the last thread about how her 5th child must be the daughter's. It's all nonsense. Fundamentally, all candidates will have to answer ethical questions about themselves, competency to do the job questions, and whether they are qualified questions? On top of which, they will also need to answer to the plans they have developed for the country, will they be adequate or not? But I am done. Got a labor day dinner to attend.

[Spider]

So, what your saying is that you were just taking some kind of shot at me, for being honest about my position on political issues.

Real classy.yo uare the one that asked for the southern English version.....
Oh gee I am so sorry , I hurt your feelings , here have some cookies and milk , and uncle spider will explain to you water carrier means . it is like a koolaid drinker , defend members of the right now matter what ........

[defenseman]

What drugs are you taking? Plus, i doubt Obama will say a peep on this. The story speaks for itself.

It's a NON STORY SFB's, if you had a clue, you'd be able to figure that one out.......hilarious.....dman

[defenseman]

LOL saying D man misse the point is like saying water is wet

Right back at ya there spider. If I'm wet, you are drowning...dman

[Spider]

Right back at ya there spider. If I'm wet, you are drowning...dman

Oooooooooohhhhhhh . attack dog ........ I am wounded ..... deeply .........need a minute here ......ok all better thanks for asking

[defenseman]

Your a good man, regardless of what everyone says about you behind your back Hilarious! Just kidding of course and thanks for the kind words about hosting you guys.

Hey, I don't try and hide the fact I am conservative. However, I don't blindly follow or defend everything Republican. I make no bones about the fact I don't like McCain as our president, for instance. I don't go around and claim Foxnews is 'fair and balanced'. I like to talk football, and sometimes politics, and shoot straight when I do so. While I will admit to voting party lines, because I believe in the Republican views far more than the Democrats, I don't blindly defend everything that is done by individual Republicans.

Dave has you snowed......he'd make you walk the plank if he could..dman

[defenseman]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in the Boston Harbor? ???

Man, you simply like to argue for the sake of arguing.

I'snt that the truth, reminds me of about 95% of the women in the world. There you go spider, back with your ilke...dman

[tnedator]

I didnt say nobody , but you are flipping out over 2% , so I can narrow that 2% down with legit questions , now stop reading stuff that isnt there ...... maybe you have some really strong sweet tea

I didn't flip out. You just attack anyone not liberal, EVEN when they agree with your beliefs.

just to recap, I was stating that the Republicans position on abstinance only, without teaching about and making available birth control and STD protection is stupid.

I further stated that many Republicans would become hypocrites when they found themselves in having to decide whether or not to have an abortion (or have their children make that decision) when they found themselves with an unwanted pregnancy.

So, rather than acknowledging the fact I slammed "my part of family values" you get into some idiotic semantical argument about how if you take the pill you will never have to worry about abortion, or some such rant.

[Spider]

Dave has you snowed......he'd make you walk the plank if he could..dmanSince you are so smart now ........ can you show me where we attacked the Daughter ? ..........Some time today would be nice

[defenseman]

Oooooooooohhhhhhh . attack dog ........ I am wounded ..... deeply .........need a minute here ......ok all better thanks for asking

YOU are a wuss, admit it spider.........freaking wussboy from hell...dman

[Spider]

I didn't flip out. You just attack anyone not liberal, EVEN when they agree with your beliefs.

just to recap, I was stating that the Republicans position on abstinance only, without teaching about and making available birth control and STD protection is stupid.

I further stated that many Republicans would become hypocrites when they found themselves in having to decide whether or not to have an abortion (or have their children make that decision) when they found themselves with an unwanted pregnancy.

So, rather than acknowledging the fact I slammed "my part of family values" you get into some idiotic semantical argument about how if you take the pill you will never have to worry about abortion, or some such rant.

well how many of that 2 % go to term and not still born ?

[tnedator]

yo uare the one that asked for the southern English version.....
Oh gee I am so sorry , I hurt your feelings , here have some cookies and milk , and uncle spider will explain to you water carrier means . it is like a koolaid drinker , defend members of the right now matter what ........

Well, then in that case, you need to get your eyes checked, because I stated in that post that I don't do that, and I just got finished calling many pro-lifers hypocrites and calling "my parties" position on abstanance only stupid.

And you call me a koolaid drinker. How the hell is that defending members of the right no matter what?

[Spider]

YOU are a wuss, admit it spider.........freaking wussboy from hell...dman

you know what they say about submariners dont ya ? 120 men go down 60 couples come up .........

[tnedator]

well how many of that 2 % go to term and not still born ?

I have no idea, other than realizing you either miss the important points of posts, or just ignore them, because they prevent your ability to attack anyone that doesn't believe 100% the same way as you.

[TheDave]

Her mother forced her daughter? Her mother is screwed up because her daughter made a mistake like this? AAAAH....I see all of you liberals are in your perfect little world, never make mistakes and have carte blanche for moral judgements. RIGHT....this does NOTHING to Palin, zero. ANY, repeat, ANY reporter that tries to spin this against Palin will get it shoved up where the sun don't shine, bank on it...dman

*Alot of you fellas have zero class, got to let you know that. Zero, nada.....really sad and quite disgusting.

Nice try... Putting this girl in this unfortunate situation in the spotlight IS the mothers fault. If Palin was still just the govenor of Alaska this story does not exist. Because she has accepted this position it brings this pregnancy to the fore front. Add to that, since her mother runs under the "Family Values" banner people have every right to ask... "what happened?"

[Spider]

Well, then in that case, you need to get your eyes checked, because I stated in that post that I don't do that, and I just got finished calling many pro-lifers hypocrites and calling "my parties" position on abstanance only stupid.

And you call me a koolaid drinker. How the hell is that defending members of the right no matter what?

LOL who you trying to snow here ? you flip out over olberman , MSNBC , but yet there are Rush Limbuagh , hannity threads and you dont say a peep

[Spider]

I have no idea, other than realizing you either miss the important points of posts, or just ignore them, because they prevent your ability to attack anyone that doesn't believe 100% the same way as you.

Not at all , you raised the question about how effective Brith control is , just trying to get to the bottom of it .........

[TheDave]

Dave has you snowed......he'd make you walk the plank if he could..dman

Why do i have this odd suspicion that you never got this upset over Chelsea Clinton jokes...

[tnedator]

Not at all , you raised the question about how effective Brith control is , just trying to get to the bottom of it .........

I didn't raise a question about it, I said the Conservative stance about not teaching nor making it available is stupid. Yea, that's me drinking the Koolaid and defending everything the GOP does. ****tards try my patience.

LOL who you trying to snow here ? you flip out over olberman , MSNBC , but yet there are Rush Limbuagh , hannity threads and you dont say a peep

I am barely keeping up with the three threads I am posting in here, plus BF, so I haven't seen the Rush and Hannity threads.

As to the two of them. I cheer them for countering the liberally controlled media (especially Rush during the Clinton years, when there was NO voice for conservative views in the media). However, they are right wing zealots, just like Olberman (and you) are left wing zealots.

If I was going to listen to the radio, and had to choose Rush and Hannity, vs. the failed Air America, I am going to listen to Rush or Hannity, since they might be zealots and I might think they go to far in parroting GOP talking points, but I would rather listen to them, then someone parroting Democratic talking points.

I listen to NFL Sirius radio nearly 100% of the time in my car.

[yerner]

First time I've ventured into the Politics forum. Wow, I feel dirty.

To say that this isn't a story is silly. Everyone everywhere has some type of opinion on it. I guess Alaska has a pretty high teen pregnancy rate so this isn' t that much of a surprise where she comes from.

[Spider]

I didn't raise a question about it, I said the Conservative stance about not teaching nor making it available is stupid. Yea, that's me drinking the Koolaid and defending everything the GOP does. ****tards try my patience.



I am barely keeping up with the three threads I am posting in here, plus BF, so I haven't seen the Rush and Hannity threads.

As to the two of them. I cheer them for countering the liberally controlled media (especially Rush during the Clinton years, when there was NO voice for conservative views in the media). However, they are right wing zealots, just like Olberman (and you) are left wing zealots.

If I was going to listen to the radio, and had to choose Rush and Hannity, vs. the failed Air America, I am going to listen to Rush or Hannity, since they might be zealots and I might think they go to far in parroting GOP talking points, but I would rather listen to them, then someone parroting Democratic talking points.

I listen to NFL Sirius radio nearly 100% of the time in my car.
LOL more excuses then a woman spending too much in a store

[Spider]

First time I've ventured into the Politics forum. Wow, I feel dirty.

To say that this isn't a story is silly. Everyone everywhere has some type of opinion on it. I guess Alaska has a pretty high teen pregnancy rate so this isn' t that much of a surprise where she comes from.
well I have it on a good source that Teen pregnancy in Alaska drops dramatically after the woman hits 20 years of age ........

[tnedator]

Fox reports Palin has the potential for 'three new scandals':

Palin's daughter pregnant
Tom Palin was arrested for DUI in '86

They didn't mention the third, but I am sure it is the hiring a lawyer over her ethics charges.

[tnedator]

LOL more excuses then a woman spending too much in a store

I guess your just not used to someone willing to cross party lines when talking about what is right or wrong. You should try it some time, it's liberating.

[Meck77]

I heard the father is a democrat!

Fellas fellas it's labor day. Go light the grill and relax!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

TIME FOR SOME CALM,

Got your attention? I hope so. Obama has come out and demeans ANYONE who goes after the 17 yr old daughter. He has put out a call for, shut it the hell down now.........Okay, either you can figure this out or not, however, it's STUPID to go after ANY seventeen yr old in most cases. I'll stop here, any further reference to the 17 yr old, well your "anointed" one has put the stamp of "STUPIDITY" on it himself, I'll only assume you are STUPID if you continue on here on the mane. Looking forward to a lot of liberal STUPIDITY in short order. Kapish?.dman
Ha!
You are a funny guy.

Most of the right wingers here crying about this would be screaming "moral values" if this happened to Obama.

Fricking priceless!!!!

I'snt that the truth, reminds me of about 95% of the women in the world. There you go spider, back with your ilke...dmanAh, another demeaning shot at the women of the world. You really don't like women do you?

It's a NON STORY SFB's, if you had a clue, you'd be able to figure that one out...dman
Only a completely ignorant fool would make this statement.

[Spider]

I guess your just not used to someone willing to cross party lines when talking about what is right or wrong. You should try it some time, it's liberating.

last time someone told me something was liberating , I found my self running through the town of La port Colo naked being chased by a jealous Husband with a gun

[tnedator]

last time someone told me something was liberating , I found my self running through the town of La port Colo naked being chased by a jealous Husband with a gun

Don't worry, you just keep being disingenuous and calling me a waterboy or kool aid drinker or whatever, and I will still be 'honest' and criticize Hannity and Rush, still criticize 'my party' when I think they need to be criticized, such as on the abstinence thing.

So, I guess we can have a good relationship going forward. I will be honest, and you can be dishonest/disingenuous in your replies. Sounds good !Booya!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I heard the father is a democrat!
Fellas fellas it's labor day. Go light the grill and relax!A registered Democrat, how old is he?

[tnedator]

A registered Democrat, how old is he?

The people promoting the conspiracy of Palin faking her pregnancy to cover Bristol's, stated that a 16 year old Chris Ray was the father. Who knows, maybe he is the father of the real Bristol pregnancy, rather than the liberal lies previously spread.

[Broncosfreak_56]

lol.

Sarah Palin: "Don't make the same mistake as my daughter!"

[Spider]

Don't worry, you just keep being disingenuous and calling me a waterboy or kool aid drinker or whatever, and I will still be 'honest' and criticize Hannity and Rush, still criticize 'my party' when I think they need to be criticized, such as on the abstinence thing.

So, I guess we can have a good relationship going forward. I will be honest, and you can be dishonest/disingenuous in your replies. Sounds good !Booya!

LOL you can snow some of the people here , thats fine ,I have been here for 8 years I havent changed at all ...... some times Neddy , inactions speak as loud as actions ........

[tnedator]

LOL you can snow some of the people here , thats fine ,I have been here for 8 years I havent changed at all ...... some times Neddy , inactions speak as loud as actions ........

I don't have to snow anyone, because I will back up what I say with my words and actions. Always do. You have zero basis for your sterotyping of me, but whatever floats your boat.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Her mother knew this was going to explode when the ran for VP and put her pregnant daughter in front of national cameras. She knew, running for VP was just more important to her.

Ding ding ding! :yep:

Wonder how this will play with the "values" voters?

Oh well, I guess if they were willing to turn a blind eye to the facts about Bush's background, then they'll probably do the same for Palin.

[Bronco Bob]

You are voting for a Muslim who will say anything to get into the White House, who has also NEVER DONE ANYTHING TO BE QUALIFIED TO RUN A MCDONALDS, LET ALONE BE PRESIDENT?

ROFL! LOL ROFL! LOL ROFL! LOL LOL

Where does these idiots come from? Or is it just the same idiot
that is just changing alias. Notice as soon as one of these idiots
disappears, another one pops up in its place.

[Laramie]

LOL ....tell her daughter to stop putting out ... well a little late for that Hilarious!

they should have said that to your wife

[Bronco Bob]

Does your "moral code" apply to John Edwards or no? Just curious

Wasn't aware Edwards was running for VP. He was firmly rejected by the
voters. Hopefully Palin gets the same treatment come November.

[Bronco Bob]

[QUOTE=ghwk;2058298]

Do some research buddy. Obama was sworn into office with a Koran. His father is a radical muslim and gave Obama the middle name he has. Do you even know his middle name.

Off the subject of Obama being muslic...which he is....what can you Obama supporters tell me about his long list of accomplishments as a Senator?

And the idiot child becomes more idiotic with every post.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Where does these idiots come from? Or is it just the same idiot
that is just changing alias. Notice as soon as one of these idiots
disappears, another one pops up in its place.This sounds about right.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

1. He was a practicing Christian before taking office. Long before. Like having been married in a Christian church, with his first daughter baptized Christian.

2. Obama was an instructor at a top legal school teaching classes in constitutional interpretation and civil rights before taking office. Before that he ran a community organization that grew from himself and one aid and a $70K budget to himself and 13 other employees and a $400K budget in about four years. I'd say he's got plenty of preparation in planning and organizing, as well as actually understanding what this nation's foundation is all about.

Oh, and as a senator he helped write and sponsor a bill with Sen. Chuck Hagel (republican) that locked up a ton of post-cold war nukes from Russia, and as an Illinois senator he was a key player in the state raising the minimum wage.

What singularly great piece of legislation has McCain pushed through in his 26 years of opportunity that makes him ultimately qualified? Chairing a baseball and steroids comity? Proposing campaign reform that has been completely ineffectual? Flip-flopping on his own immigration bill?

As for this whole "babygate II" bull****. All it does is show how pathetic an argument preaching abstinence without real sex education actually is. The real political drama is only resultant from her mother, McCain's VP choice, being such a strong proponent of abstinence over all else.

Daaaayum!

Drek: Scourge of the Wingnuts.

Nice work! :notworthy :thumbsup:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Where does these idiots come from? Or is it just the same idiot
that is just changing alias. Notice as soon as one of these idiots
disappears, another one pops up in its place.

RNC spambots, it looks like.

[Spider]

I don't have to snow anyone, because I will back up what I say with my words and actions. Always do. You have zero basis for your sterotyping of me, but whatever floats your boat.

Just your board , I know you dont moderate , so no need to go there , but you even started a thread over there about MSNBC , am I right ? the Wisdom of El Rushbo was 2 threads down , Hannity and a few threads slamming Obama was right there ........ And you was silent .Perhaps you dont want to mix it up on your board , a fit in go with the flow thing ..........Just saying

[Bronco Bob]

Let's dig into every democrats past, rake out every daughter that's EVER had a kid at 15, 16, and 17. SOUND FAIR??????? Get a clue, making your bones on a 17 yr old girl who rolled the dice and ended up pregnant is a recipe for disaster. IF , the dems try to go down this road, they will have some major egg on their face, considering their "liberal" track record. Again, make your bones in this way, embarassing a 17 yr old, is the wrong road to take.
A distinct lack of class, and americans will get pissed off about it, except of course for the far-left, who respect NO ONE excepting themselves...dman

Not every Democrat. Just those running for VP. Now, can you name one?
Truman? Johnson? Humphrey? Mondale? Lieberman? Who?

[Bronco Bob]

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/30/121350/137/486/580223

JUNEAU -- Gov. Sarah Palin shocked and awed just about everybody around the Capitol on Wednesday when she announced she's expecting her fifth child.

...

Palin said she's already about seven months along, with the baby due to arrive in mid-May.

That the pregnancy is so advanced astonished all who heard the news. The governor, a runner who's always been trim, simply doesn't look pregnant.

Even close members of her staff said they only learned this week their boss was expecting.

"I thought it was becoming obvious," Palin said. "You know, clothes getting snugger and snugger."

But people just couldn't believe the news.

"Really? No!" said Bethel state Rep. Mary Nelson, who is close to giving birth herself.

"It's wonderful. She's very well-disguised," said Senate President Lyda Green, a mother of three who has sometimes sparred with Palin politically. "When I was five months pregnant, there was absolutely no question that I was with child."

...

Palin said she's not aiming to take any time off from her job as governor, assuming all goes well with the pregnancy.

...

With Palin riding extraordinarily high popularity ratings, pundits have mentioned her as a potential vice presidential candidate. But she said Wednesday night she's "not pursuing or perpetuating it," adding, "I have no desire to leave my job at all as governor."

...

She's known as a fashion plate, but said she hasn't been dressing differently to cover her barely perceptible bulge.



__________________________________________________ ________
So where exactly is the bile?

[SonOfLe-loLang]

For Conservatives:

I should probably pose this question in it's own thread, but i'll do it here.

I understand its natural that we all have our political beliefs and that is, of course, fine. Liberals and conservatives will obvious disagree on many points and policies. But here is what i dont understand and what hasnt been explained to me.

Everytime I pose the question of McCain's competence, the first words out of republicans mouth are ones that slam Obama. Now you can believe your conservative beliefs and you can support your reagenesque politics, but how can you sit here and not admit that George Bush took that viewpoint and ran it off a cliff. How can you look at the past 8 years as any kind of, especially economic success? How can you not see that he took the conservative playbook and stretched it beyond it's limits? I think we all agree bush ****ed up exponentially.

So how can you sit here and support John McCain who really wants to continue the same policies that got us into this ****hole (both economic and foreign policy speaking)? And in your answer I do not want ONE comparison to Obama. I just want to know why you feel that bringing out the same playbook that has beaten us so hard is good for this country.

[Bronco Bob]

You test it anyway you wish, first, if you endorse dragging a seventeen year old, through the mud, you need to have your head examined. Second, if they actually make the mistake of doing this, there will be a high price for it, I gaurantee it. Total lack of class, total loss of credibility, totally taking your eye off what's important. You just don't make your bones that way, do it, and you will pay dearly. Mark my words on this one...dman

So where's your list of Democratic VPs that had knocked up teen-age daughters?

[peacepipe]

For Conservatives:

I should probably pose this question in it's own thread, but i'll do it here.

I understand its natural that we all have our political beliefs and that is, of course, fine. Liberals and conservatives will obvious disagree on many points and policies. But here is what i dont understand and what hasnt been explained to me.

Everytime I pose the question of McCain's competence, the first words out of republicans mouth are ones that slam Obama. Now you can believe your conservative beliefs and you can support your reagenesque politics, but how can you sit here and not admit that George Bush took that viewpoint and ran it off a cliff. How can you look at the past 8 years as any kind of, especially economic success? How can you not see that he took the conservative playbook and stretched it beyond it's limits? I think we all agree bush ****ed up exponentially.

So how can you sit here and support John McCain who really wants to continue the same policies that got us into this ****hole (both economic and foreign policy speaking)? And in your answer I do not want ONE comparison to Obama. I just want to know why you feel that bringing out the same playbook that has beaten us so hard is good for this country.You may be asking too much of them. W*gs is having an annuerism(sp)somewhere trying to answer this.

[Bronco Bob]

"If" he said that, it was tasteless. Much like the former DNC chairman making a joke yesterday about how God is on the Democrats side, the proof being a hurricane heading for the poor folks of NOLA.



He was making fun of your hero, Jerry Falwell, who said 9-11 was God's
punishment of America for allowing Homosexuality.

[enjolras]

as to whether or not families are fair game:

"Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father." - John McCain

It's apparently ok with him.

[Bronco Bob]

Why do i have this odd suspicion that you never got this upset over Chelsea Clinton jokes...

Probably laughed his ass off when he heard it.
Course now he will deny it and fake outrage that
anyone would even suggest he did.

[PaintballCLE]

LOL she has a 17 year old Daughter knocked up now ......I hope she does a better job as VP then she did raising her kids .... My 16 year old Daughter is still a virgin

LOL...........no comment.........but i am not sending you that chess board for nothing Dad. :peace:

[Spider]

LOL...........no comment.........but i am not sending you that chess board for nothing Dad. :peace:

LOL ..... I would have welcomed you as a son in law if you was younger , richer , More stable ......

[tnedator]

Just your board , I know you dont moderate , so no need to go there , but you even started a thread over there about MSNBC , am I right ? the Wisdom of El Rushbo was 2 threads down , Hannity and a few threads slamming Obama was right there ........ And you was silent .Perhaps you dont want to mix it up on your board , a fit in go with the flow thing ..........Just saying

I think you know from your posting time there, that I rarely post in P&R. I didn't even read those threads. I had no desire to read the squabblings of the left and right, because I try and stay out of P&R talk there, because I don't feel comfortable fully expressing my opinion, because as Admin, it could come off the wrong way, or people could get attacked for disagreeing with me (by people supporting me, because they are thankful for the board), like I was slammed once here in Rep messages for disagreeing with TJ about a WR or something.

I created the MSNBC thread, because I couldn't believe they had done this:

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/original/palin_8-29.jpg

I have posted a little bit this weekend, because of the MSNBC thing and in some of the Palin threads, but I just rarely participate in P&R by choice.

Wouldn't you agree that you very rarely ran into me in P&R?

I don't see how you can judge me by what other's post on BF, since as I have said, I don't censor it, so you could just as well stereo type me by what NUB or Nbpa posts (which are typically Bush bashing), since I don't go into those and tell them they are wrong.

[tnedator]

He was making fun of your hero, Jerry Falwell, who said 9-11 was God's
punishment of America for allowing Homosexuality.

Another person talking out his ass. I have never posted Falwell's name (until today) on a message board, could care less about the guy. I am not a fan of those big evangelist types or whatever you would call him, nor am I fan of any zealot, whether it be christian/conservative, or left-wing liberal. I consider someone like Falwell or Jessee Jackson both extremists that I want no part of.

I am amazed how you guys group everyone that doesn't kneel down in front of Obama into the EXACT same mould.

[Spider]

I think you know from your posting time there, that I rarely post in P&R. I didn't even read those threads. I had no desire to read the squabblings of the left and right, because I try and stay out of P&R talk there, because I don't feel comfortable fully expressing my opinion, because as Admin, it could come off the wrong way, or people could get attacked for disagreeing with me (by people supporting me, because they are thankful for the board), like I was slammed once here in Rep messages for disagreeing with TJ about a WR or something.

I created the MSNBC thread, because I couldn't believe they had done this:

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/original/palin_8-29.jpg

I have posted a little bit this weekend, because of the MSNBC thing and in some of the Palin threads, but I just rarely participate in P&R by choice.

Wouldn't you agree that you very rarely ran into me in P&R?

I don't see how you can judge me by what other's post on BF, since as I have said, I don't censor it, so you could just as well stereo type me by what NUB or Nbpa posts (which are typically Bush bashing), since I don't go into those and tell them they are wrong.
you getting enough Fiber ? so MSNBC did that , what about some of the outlandish things in the El Rushbo thread ?
Like I say , you can claim to be right that doesnt carry water , some will believe you .......

[defenseman]

Nice try... Putting this girl in this unfortunate situation in the spotlight IS the mothers fault. If Palin was still just the govenor of Alaska this story does not exist. Because she has accepted this position it brings this pregnancy to the fore front. Add to that, since her mother runs under the "Family Values" banner people have every right to ask... "what happened?"

Pure unadulterated Garbage on your part. You fit neatly in with the unapologetic left, and the daily kos graduates. Congrats.....dman

*I hear they have a guest spot set aside online just for you, enjoy yourself.

[Spider]

Pure unadulterated Garbage on your part. You fit neatly in with the unapologetic left, and the daily kos graduates. Congrats.....dman

*I hear they have a guest spot set aside online just for you, enjoy yourself.

LOL I said earlier that if Palin resigns , you would go bat **** , I just figured you for a babbling idiot , but it seems you are already bat ****

[TheDave]

Pure unadulterated Garbage on your part. You fit neatly in with the unapologetic left, and the daily kos graduates. Congrats.....dman

*I hear they have a guest spot set aside online just for you, enjoy yourself.

Is it too late to change my vote for the meltdown thread?

[Bronco Bob]

Pure unadulterated Garbage on your part. You fit neatly in with the unapologetic left, and the daily kos graduates. Congrats.....dman

*I hear they have a guest spot set aside online just for you, enjoy yourself.

So is it your contention that it would still be a major story on every
news outlet if Palin weren't McCain's choice for VP.

*Take a clue, it isn't just the Daily Kos that is reporting this story.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sally_quinn/2008/08/sarah_polin.html

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837862,00.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN2944356420080901?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

[tnedator]

For Conservatives:

I should probably pose this question in it's own thread, but i'll do it here.

I understand its natural that we all have our political beliefs and that is, of course, fine. Liberals and conservatives will obvious disagree on many points and policies. But here is what i dont understand and what hasnt been explained to me.

Everytime I pose the question of McCain's competence, the first words out of republicans mouth are ones that slam Obama. Now you can believe your conservative beliefs and you can support your reagenesque politics, but how can you sit here and not admit that George Bush took that viewpoint and ran it off a cliff. How can you look at the past 8 years as any kind of, especially economic success? How can you not see that he took the conservative playbook and stretched it beyond it's limits? I think we all agree bush ****ed up exponentially.

So how can you sit here and support John McCain who really wants to continue the same policies that got us into this ****hole (both economic and foreign policy speaking)? And in your answer I do not want ONE comparison to Obama. I just want to know why you feel that bringing out the same playbook that has beaten us so hard is good for this country.

I will admit to not being an economics major, so I will express things as I see them, but they may not be 'correct' in book-economic terms.

First, I am a firm believer that lower taxes and minimal governmental programs are key to a successful country. Capital gains, for instance. I think it is key that the low capital gains taxes are kept. The low capital gains tax benefits the country in multiple places. It doens't hit people hard when they sell houses, so they are more likely to sell a house and 'upgrade', then if they were paying ordinary income tax on the gains. More important, it results in more investment in companies (either directly or via the stock market), which results in capital for companies to expand. McCain will keep the capital gains tax as structured.

Second, while McCain is too liberal in my mind, he does have a lot of experience, albeit only as a Senator. He has spent a lot of his career fighting earmarks and other pork spending. He is a kind of a nasty, quick to snap, kind of guy, and he wouldn't have been my choice for the Republican ticket, but I think he is firm on the major conservative values I believe in (since I am not far right myself).

Third, he understands that the 'rich' are not always the 'rich'. A great number of small companies, which make up a significant number of the empoyed workforce, are either pass through tax entities like LLC's/Partnerships, or sole proprietorships. These small "companies" file their corporate income on their personal returns, and would be considered "rich" based on the income (personal + corporate pass through) the way most democrats over the last decade have defined it. McCain 'gets' the fact that you can't overtax these small businesses, because many would fold or have to eliminate employees.

Fourth, has absolutely nothng to do with McCain, but I have no desire to have a democratic house, senate and president. Irreparable damage could be done (or at least what could take decades to repair) without having a Republican to Veto certain bills. For instance, and I know I will get blasted on this MB (not that I won't for the first three points), the democratic senate is trying to pass a change to the union laws that will no longer require a secret vote to determine whether or not employees of a company want a union. Currently (and fee free to correct any small factual errors I have), each employee signs a card saying whether or not they want a union, and this is public. Then, if 50% of the employees sign the card saying they want a union, then their is a SECRET ballot of all employees and over 50% of the employees have to vote in favor of the union.

The reason there is a secret ballot is that there is a great amount of power and corruption in unions and without an employee being able to 'secretly' vote no to a union, there would be intimidation by those that want the union, if the voting is public. The democratic senate is trying to do away with the secret vote, so that employees can be bullied and intimidated into the public voting for a union.

This could have devestating effects. The way the unions destroyed the US auto industry and allowed Japan to take over, this could happen again. First the auto industry left the US and many jobs were lost. Then, Japanese and other car manufacturers moved factories to the south where unions weren't common and brought jobs BACK to the american auto industry. If the senate passes this bill that would allow union leaders to intimidate employees into publicly voting for unions, even when they don't want them, then the southern auto plants will have the same outcome as Detroit decades back, and those factories will just close and go to Mexio or other places, meaning more lost jobs.

Summary, there are more thngs along the lines of the taxes and free-reign no veto situation that I could talk about, but you get the picture. I am not a fan of McCain or anyone else on the ticket, however, I think great damage to this country could be done with a Democratic president, congress and senate.

Flame away.

[TheDave]

So is it your contention that it would still be a major story on every
news outlet if Palin weren't McCain's choice for VP.

*Take a clue, it isn't just the Daily Kos that is reporting this story.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sally_quinn/2008/08/sarah_polin.html

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837862,00.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN2944356420080901?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

That and the little fact that this was anounced by the Palins...

Not KOS, MSNBC, ABC, CBS or any other news outlet. This was a pres release put out by the Palins themselves.

[tnedator]

you getting enough Fiber ? so MSNBC did that , what about some of the outlandish things in the El Rushbo thread ?
Like I say , you can claim to be right that doesnt carry water , some will believe you .......

What part don't you understand. I don't read 99% of the P&R threads, because I don't want to participate in BF's P&R, because I am afraid voicing my personal views could either be seen as the owner/admin bullying his position on others, or if people go after me (like you guys are doing here), people could feel the need to defend me (out of thanks for paying for the forum).

I don't know why you can't grasp that.

Again, please answer this simple question. When you were posting in P&R, how often did you and I debate? How often did you see me posting in ANY politics thread?

[Spider]

What part don't you understand. I don't read 99% of the P&R threads, because I don't want to participate in BF's P&R, because I am afraid voicing my personal views could either be seen as the owner/admin bullying his position on others, or if people go after me (like you guys are doing here), people could feel the need to defend me (out of thanks for paying for the forum).

I don't know why you can't grasp that.

Again, please answer this simple question. When you were posting in P&R, how often did you and I debate? How often did you see me posting in ANY politics thread?

LOL you still dont get it do you ? what MSNBC wasnt that big of a deal , nothing compared to what fax has done or will do , yet you got tweaked , had to run off and start a thread about it ........ Something that small set you off .... that isnt a opened minded guy , most saw probably got a chuckle , not you , you wigged out ....... Like when fox put a D in front of Foleys name during his page scandal , I didnt start a thread , I laughed and said you wish he was a dem suckers .......

[PaintballCLE]

LOL ..... I would have welcomed you as a son in law if you was younger , richer , More stable ......

in other words........a republican :wave:

[TheDave]

in other words........a republican :wave:

Hilarious! well done...

[Spider]

in other words........a republican :wave:

Ha! smart ass .......

[Dudeskey]

I will admit to not being an economics major, so I will express things as I see them, but they may not be 'correct' in book-economic terms.

First, I am a firm believer that lower taxes and minimal governmental programs are key to a successful country. Capital gains, for instance. I think it is key that the low capital gains taxes are kept. The low capital gains tax benefits the country in multiple places. It doens't hit people hard when they sell houses, so they are more likely to sell a house and 'upgrade', then if they were paying ordinary income tax on the gains. More important, it results in more investment in companies (either directly or via the stock market), which results in capital for companies to expand. McCain will keep the capital gains tax as structured.

Second, while McCain is too liberal in my mind, he does have a lot of experience, albeit only as a Senator. He has spent a lot of his career fighting earmarks and other pork spending. He is a kind of a nasty, quick to snap, kind of guy, and he wouldn't have been my choice for the Republican ticket, but I think he is firm on the major conservative values I believe in (since I am not far right myself).

Third, he understands that the 'rich' are not always the 'rich'. A great number of small companies, which make up a significant number of the empoyed workforce, are either pass through tax entities like LLC's/Partnerships, or sole proprietorships. These small "companies" file their corporate income on their personal returns, and would be considered "rich" based on the income (personal + corporate pass through) the way most democrats over the last decade have defined it. McCain 'gets' the fact that you can't overtax these small businesses, because many would fold or have to eliminate employees.

Fourth, has absolutely nothng to do with McCain, but I have no desire to have a democratic house, senate and president. Irreparable damage could be done (or at least what could take decades to repair) without having a Republican to Veto certain bills. For instance, and I know I will get blasted on this MB (not that I won't for the first three points), the democratic senate is trying to pass a change to the union laws that will no longer require a secret vote to determine whether or not employees of a company want a union. Currently (and fee free to correct any small factual errors I have), each employee signs a card saying whether or not they want a union, and this is public. Then, if 50% of the employees sign the card saying they want a union, then their is a SECRET ballot of all employees and over 50% of the employees have to vote in favor of the union.

The reason there is a secret ballot is that there is a great amount of power and corruption in unions and without an employee being able to 'secretly' vote no to a union, there would be intimidation by those that want the union, if the voting is public. The democratic senate is trying to do away with the secret vote, so that employees can be bullied and intimidated into the public voting for a union.

This could have devestating effects. The way the unions destroyed the US auto industry and allowed Japan to take over, this could happen again. First the auto industry left the US and many jobs were lost. Then, Japanese and other car manufacturers moved factories to the south where unions weren't common and brought jobs BACK to the american auto industry. If the senate passes this bill that would allow union leaders to intimidate employees into publicly voting for unions, even when they don't want them, then the southern auto plants will have the same outcome as Detroit decades back, and those factories will just close and go to Mexio or other places, meaning more lost jobs.

Summary, there are more thngs along the lines of the taxes and free-reign no veto situation that I could talk about, but you get the picture. I am not a fan of McCain or anyone else on the ticket, however, I think great damage to this country could be done with a Democratic president, congress and senate.

Flame away.

Unions didn't destroy the US auto industry. The industry did that to themselves with a bloated management structure and executives getting rewarded for constant failure. Yes the union guys are compensated well, but you can't sit there and lay all blame on the UAW for Detroit's inability to compete with the asians. As for the secret ballot thing, I agree. But on the same token you have companies that intimidate employees (see Wal Mart whenever there is an attempt to unionize a store).

[PaintballCLE]

Unions didn't destroy the US auto industry. The industry did that to themselves with a bloated management structure and executives getting rewarded for constant failure. Yes the union guys are compensated well, but you can't sit there and lay all blame on the UAW for Detroit's inability to compete with the asians. As for the secret ballot thing, I agree. But on the same token you have companies that intimidate employees (see Wal Mart whenever there is an attempt to unionize a store).

The auto industry killed themselves by putting out crapy products year after year figured people would buy them just because they are american. Sadly people still buy them based on this even though 1. They still suck compared to imports, 2. Most us cars have parts or are assembled in mexico and other countries. 3. The import cars are almost entirely assembeld and manufactured in the US now......creatings tons of jobs for american workers.

[Rohirrim]

Unions didn't destroy the US auto industry. The industry did that to themselves with a bloated management structure and executives getting rewarded for constant failure. Yes the union guys are compensated well, but you can't sit there and lay all blame on the UAW for Detroit's inability to compete with the asians. As for the secret ballot thing, I agree. But on the same token you have companies that intimidate employees (see Wal Mart whenever there is an attempt to unionize a store).

Isn't it obvious? Most of the Japanese cars we buy here in the States now were built by Americans in American plants with unionized workers. It's cheaper to build a Toyota in America than to ship it here. Why can't GM compete? Because they build ****.

[Spider]

The auto industry killed themselves by putting out crapy products year after year figured people would buy them just because they are american. Sadly people still buy them based on this even though 1. They still suck compared to imports, 2. Most us cars have parts or are assembled in mexico and other countries. 3. The import cars are almost entirely assembeld and manufactured in the US now......creatings tons of jobs for american workers.

The Dodge Aries K car , aka the world car , parts from all over the world . piece of **** ...... our pick ups are still títs though

[tnedator]

Unions didn't destroy the US auto industry. The industry did that to themselves with a bloated management structure and executives getting rewarded for constant failure. Yes the union guys are compensated well, but you can't sit there and lay all blame on the UAW for Detroit's inability to compete with the asians. As for the secret ballot thing, I agree. But on the same token you have companies that intimidate employees (see Wal Mart whenever there is an attempt to unionize a store).

Wal-Mart might very well work hard to keep unions out in many ways, but the same secret ballot system allows employees to vote the way they want. Take it away, and whether or not a company is unionized is no longer the will of the employee, but who can intimidate the most.

So, in essence, there are democratic plans to implement legislative change that I think will be bad for this country, cost us jobs, result in the failure of small companies, etc.

So, what do I see as McCain that will make him a great president? He will be able to veto some of the most far out bills that are passed, especially if the senate dems gain enough seats to prevent filibusters.

[Spider]

Wal-Mart might very well work hard to keep unions out in many ways, but the same secret ballot system allows employees to vote the way they want. Take it away, and whether or not a company is unionized is no longer the will of the employee, but who can intimidate the most.

So, in essence, there are democratic plans to implement legislative change that I think will be bad for this country, cost us jobs, result in the failure of small companies, etc.

So, what do I see as McCain that will make him a great president? He will be able to veto some of the most far out bills that are passed, especially if the senate dems gain enough seats to prevent filibusters.

I agree with this take .... ;D but where I work if we had a chance to go union , I wouldnt , I am pro Union , but we dont need one , my Boss lets me have all the hours I want , he pays over time , when I was sick and couldnt work for 3 days , he actually came by my house with money , to make sure we had enough ......and most of all he puts up with my bull**** ........

[PaintballCLE]

and most of all he puts up with my bull**** ........

holy ****..........this man really is a saint :wiggle:

[tnedator]

Isn't it obvious? Most of the Japanese cars we buy here in the States now were built by Americans in American plants with unionized workers. It's cheaper to build a Toyota in America than to ship it here. Why can't GM compete? Because they build ****.

Many Japanese cars are built in the US, but mostly by non-unionized employees, at least I know it is that way with Toyota.

This is one of the reason that they want to eliminate secret voting. Union membership has declined and by forcing employees to publicly vote against a union, would subject that employee to intimidation by those that want unions implemented, specifically the organizers.

Force the companies to unionize, costs go up, the manufacturers will move to Mexico or elsewhere.

[Spider]

holy ****..........this man really is a saint :wiggle:

LOL you a fricken right tonight ........ if your wit was half a quick as your tongue you would be a fricken 4 star general by now ... but yeah he is a good guy ;D

[tnedator]

I agree with this take .... ;D but where I work if we had a chance to go union , I wouldnt , I am pro Union , but we dont need one , my Boss lets me have all the hours I want , he pays over time , when I was sick and couldnt work for 3 days , he actually came by my house with money , to make sure we had enough ......and most of all he puts up with my bull**** ........

Which is the way it should be, employees choice, not employees intimidated into voting in a union.

This is an "example" of the types of philosophies that the democratic party believe in, where the government knows better than the individual, that I can't agree with. Hence, I want somewhere up there to veto the real bad ones.

[Spider]

Which is the way it should be, employees choice, not employees intimidated into voting in a union.

This is an "example" of the types of philosophies that the democratic party believe in, where the government knows better than the individual, that I can't agree with. Hence, I want somewhere up there to veto the real bad ones.

actually I believe Unions is a states rights issue , Wyoming is a right to work state , if I dont like it I can leave ........But on the same hand Idaho is also , I talked to a couple of outfits up there .....****ing Slave owners not bosses up there ........So I didnt move there

[PaintballCLE]

LOL you a fricken right tonight ........ if your wit was half a quick as your tongue you would be a fricken 4 star general by now ... but yeah he is a good guy ;D

my tongue sure is quick.......just ask.....wait nevermind LOL:~ohyah!:

[tnedator]

LOL you still dont get it do you ? what MSNBC wasnt that big of a deal , nothing compared to what fax has done or will do , yet you got tweaked , had to run off and start a thread about it ........ Something that small set you off .... that isnt a opened minded guy , most saw probably got a chuckle , not you , you wigged out ....... Like when fox put a D in front of Foleys name during his page scandal , I didnt start a thread , I laughed and said you wish he was a dem suckers .......

Me posting that is no different then the moveon.org stuff and palin pics, and everything else you guys post in here.

I was irritated that they used a "breaking News" box to slam McCane. I didn't wig out.

Regardless, because I post in one thread in P&R doesn't mean I participate in all P&R threads.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Wal-Mart might very well work hard to keep unions out in many ways, but the same secret ballot system allows employees to vote the way they want. Take it away, and whether or not a company is unionized is no longer the will of the employee, but who can intimidate the most.

So, in essence, there are democratic plans to implement legislative change that I think will be bad for this country, cost us jobs, result in the failure of small companies, etc.
Name them...

[Spider]

Me posting that is no different then the moveon.org stuff and palin pics, and everything else you guys post in here.

I was irritated that they used a "breaking News" box to slam McCane. I didn't wig out.

Regardless, because I post in one thread in P&R doesn't mean I participate in all P&R threads.
LOL we post move on stuff here ? ok if you say so ...

[tnedator]

Name them...

Changing how unions are defined, as I mentioned
Repealing the capital gains rates (or changing them)
Repealing the Bush tax cuts - picking an arbitrary level tax return income to classify a person as rich without regard for whether they are filing LLC/Sole Proprietorship income on their personal taxes

I'm lieing in bed about to fall asleep, but those are some that come to mind.

[tnedator]

LOL we post move on stuff here ? ok if you say so ...

Yea, I figured you would turn to them for your questionable GOP slamming/slander.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yea, I figured you would turn to them for your questionable GOP slamming/slander.

Ha ha ha! :laugh:

Gotta laugh at the notion that anyone would need to slander the GOP - your party has become a cesspool of corruption all on its own w/o help from anyone.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Changing how unions are defined, as I mentioned
Repealing the capital gains rates (or changing them)
Repealing the Bush tax cuts - picking an arbitrary level tax return income to classify a person as rich without regard for whether they are filing LLC/Sole Proprietorship income on their personal taxes

I'm lieing in bed about to fall asleep, but those are some that come to mind.

If you ask me, the new Obama tax code still doesn't tax enough. The Bush Tax cuts have helped create the biggest economic disparity this country has seen since the 20's. Obama's tax code is actually not all that different from Reagan's (if i recall my facts)...since then the conservatives have taken that and deregulation to another level and, ta da, current problems.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The current economic plan IS NOT WORKING. If you study the history of American economics, you would see that the economy is strongest and job numbers are strongest when the middle class is strongest. The current tax code and economic structure has killed the middle class, there's nothing to refute this, look at the economy the way it is today. Obviously its not the only reason, but its certainly a big one.

The idea behind natural market corrections and trickle down economics obviously has not worked. Helping the middle class strengthen will go a long way to helping the economy.

And without going into a long diatribe on why i think the upper class should be taxed (as ive done MANY times on this forum), this country is still without many of the social programs other nations, poorer than us, enjoy with great success (like HEALTHCARE, which is just out of control right now.)

In a country as rich as hours, its sad that the top 30,000 have more than the bottom 150,000,000. Its a shame minimum wage is still paltry. There's a LOT the democratic playbook will bring back to this country economics wise.

Not to mention, they probably won't start WW3, which McCain seems dead set on doing.

But I also want to know what you think about McCain's total about face these past few months. How can you explain his pandering to the oil companies and the fact that he WONT VOTE FOR BILLS HE WROTE!!!!! This guy is a slimeball who is completely out of touch with most Americans.

I don't know why people think staying in a vietnamese prison means you are fit to be president of the United States. He's just another Bush.

[W*GS]

If you ask me, the new Obama tax code still doesn't tax enough.

Puhleeze. Do you voluntarily send to the IRS more than you are obligated to pay?

Too-low taxes aren't the problem - too-high spending is. Until entitlement spending is controlled and then lessened, we will have deficits, growing and growing.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Obama's tax code is actually not all that different from Reagan's (if i recall my facts)...since then the conservatives have taken that and deregulation to another level and, ta da, current problems.

Exactly.

That's why I always have to chuckle at the right-wing disinfo slingers who claim Obama is a "socialist." :giggle:

[W*GS]

Exactly.

That's why I always have to chuckle at the right-wing disinfo slingers who claim Obama is a "socialist." :giggle:

True. Obama is not a socialist, and you should know, since you are.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

True. Obama is not a socialist, and you should know, since you are.

I love how socialist became an insult. I'm a proud socialist. I know the government in its pure form cant work, but yearning for an equality for all people shouldnt exactly be an insult...even if its unrealistic.

And yes, too much spending is definitely part of the problem, but not the only problem. And i'd have no problem paying more taxes if it was to support universal health care, childcare,etc. I dont want to pay to support a war.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I love how socialist became an insult. I'm a proud socialist. I know the government in its pure form cant work, but yearning for an equality for all people shouldnt exactly be an insult...even if its unrealistic.

And yes, too much spending is definitely part of the problem, but not the only problem. And i'd have no problem paying more taxes if it was to support universal health care, childcare,etc. I dont want to pay to support a war.

The same thing holds true for "liberal."

The right-wing propaganda apparatus that so laughingly passes itself off as "news media" in this country has been pretty successful at turning both of these labels into epithets in the minds of sheeple like W*GS.

What's even more humorous to me is that none of these right-wing half-wits (W*GS included) can tell you the differences between liberalism and socialism when you press them.

[W*GS]

I love how socialist became an insult. I'm a proud socialist. I know the government in its pure form cant work, but yearning for an equality for all people shouldnt exactly be an insult...even if its unrealistic.

How does freedom fit with your equality, or is it less important?

And yes, too much spending is definitely part of the problem, but not the only problem. And i'd have no problem paying more taxes if it was to support universal health care, childcare,etc. I dont want to pay to support a war.

Do you pay more in taxes than you're obligated to pay? Do you include a little extra with your tax bill, or, if you're so stupid as to get a refund, do you return it?

What percentage of your income (or consumption, if you prefer that form instead) would be fair as a tax, IYHO?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I love how socialist became an insult. I'm a proud socialist. I know the government in its pure form cant work, but yearning for an equality for all people shouldnt exactly be an insult...even if its unrealistic.

And yes, too much spending is definitely part of the problem, but not the only problem. And i'd have no problem paying more taxes if it was to support universal health care, childcare,etc. I dont want to pay to support a war.

In the minds of ignorant right-wing extremists like W*GS, anyone who supports any form of government intervention in markets is a "socialist."

[W*GS]

The same thing holds true for "liberal."

You're not a "liberal" (which is itself a misnomer; "left-wing" is far more accurate).

The right-wing propaganda apparatus that so laughingly passes itself off as "news media" in this country has been pretty successful at turning both of these labels into epithets in the minds of sheeple like W*GS.

Socialism is a disastrous ideology - it left us with 100 million dead.

"Liberals" are liars with their every use of the word.

I don't need the media to tell me those labels are wrong - they're wrong of their own accord.

What's even more humorous to me is that none of these right-wing half-wits (W*GS included) can tell you the differences between liberalism and socialism when you press them.

I'll ask you again how you can be a smidgeon to the left of a real socialist and yet don't accept the label yourself. At least "SonOfLe-loLang" is proud to be a socialist - why don't you have the balls to be as proud?

[W*GS]

In the minds of ignorant right-wing extremists like W*GS, anyone who supports any form of government intervention in markets is a "socialist."

No. I call you a socialist because you are, even if you don't have the balls to admit to it.

But egregious lies about my views are your stock-in-trade.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ha ha ha! :laugh:

Speaking of "balls," W*GS has yet to rise to either of these two challenges:

1) To explain the differences between liberalism and socialism.

2) To identify even one position of mine that would qualify me as a "socialist." (This shouldn't be difficult to do - he's been reading my posts for ~8 years.)

I have to laugh also at W*GS' inability to distinguish between Stalin and Ghandi in his attempts to define socialism (to say nothing of his attempt to replace the meanings of terms like "liberal" and "left-winger" with kooky, esoteric definitions of his own.)

Very comic stuff! :laugh:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

What sort of government intervention in markets does W*GS support, then?

Anybody?

[tnedator]

I love how socialist became an insult. I'm a proud socialist. I know the government in its pure form cant work, but yearning for an equality for all people shouldnt exactly be an insult...even if its unrealistic.

And yes, too much spending is definitely part of the problem, but not the only problem. And i'd have no problem paying more taxes if it was to support universal health care, childcare,etc. I dont want to pay to support a war.

I was going to respond to your previous post (your response to mine, until I got to the end, when it just turned into inflammatory McCain bashing (slimeball, wants to start WWIII, etc.).

You might be a proud socialist, but I spend a lot of time in Europe and talk to people there. They talk about how their national health service (socialized medicine) doesn't work. How their family members wait weeks or months for an appointment with a specialist to DETERMINE if they need a surgery or cancer treatment.

Basically, anyone that can afford private insurance, have purchased private insurance and started using fee-for-service doctors and dentists, because it is the only way to get good, timely medical care.

I agree there are many things in this country that need to be fixed, including the out of control medical costs, but adding more entitlements and moving towards a socialized society isn't the answer.

[tnedator]

Ha ha ha! :laugh:

Speaking of "balls," W*GS has yet to rise to either of these two challenges:

1) To explain the differences between liberalism and socialism.



Is there a difference anymore?

Liberals want to take 'excess' profits from companies and redistribute them to the 'poor'. Liberals want to implement various forms of socialized (state controlled and/or paid for) medicine and other programs. Liberalism, in its current form, wants to redistribute wealth in a state controlled manner, to take it from those that have earned it and give it to those that have not.

I think the modern, practical lines between socialism and liberalism have blurred. By 'pure' definition, much of Western Europe would not be considered socialistic societies, BUT few would argue that they don't have many, many socialized programs, such as medicine, maternity leave, and many other areas that I don't have time to type when I have to leave for work in 10 minutes.

[Laramie]

LOL she has a 17 year old Daughter knocked up now ......I hope she does a better job as VP then she did raising her kids .... My 16 year old Daughter is still a virgin

knowing you she'll be on the pole soon enough

[baja]

knowing you she'll be on the pole soon enough


You are going to have explain that one Mr. 9 post wonder. You will likely get a vacation for that comment and you better hope you don't live anywhere near Spider.

[W*GS]

Speaking of "balls," W*GS has yet to rise to either of these two challenges:

1) To explain the differences between liberalism and socialism.

"Liberalism" is a misnomer, as I've pointed out numerous times before.

Also, as I've pointed out before, the level of State control over matters economic that you advocate is indistinguishable from socialism, which is why (see below) your position on the compass chart, very close to a real socialist, you're a socialist.

2) To identify even one position of mine that would qualify me as a "socialist." (This shouldn't be difficult to do - he's been reading my posts for ~8 years.)

If you're not a socialist, explain your location on this chart:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=20899&stc=1&d=1199406604

Now, I have a question for you, that's far older and has yet to be answered.

Identify one position of mine that would qualify me as a Bush supporter. It can't be difficult to do, since you've been reading my stuff for an equivalent period of time...

I have to laugh also at W*GS' inability to distinguish between Stalin and Ghandi in his attempts to define socialism (to say nothing of his attempt to replace the meanings of terms like "liberal" and "left-winger" with kooky, esoteric definitions of his own.)

Your first assertion is a lie (show me where I didn't distinguish between the two, please); secondly, it is you and your ilk who have absconded with the term "liberal" despite your most illiberal ideology.

As for "left-wing", are you denying you're a left-winger?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Is there a difference anymore?


ROFL!

Add one more player to the roster of right-wing spambots who don't even understand such basics as the difference between liberalism and socialism.

You might want to consider taking an introductory political science course at your local community college or something. :D

[tnedator]

ROFL!

Add one more player to the roster of right-wing spambots who don't even understand such basics as the difference between liberalism and socialism.

You might want to consider taking an introductory political science course at your local community college or something. :D

I don't need one, I work for a living, I don't look for entitlements to get by one.

You conveniently blew off the rest of my post, so why don't you explain what the difference is, Professor.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I don't need one, I work for a living, I don't look for entitlements to get by one.

???

You conveniently blew off the rest of my post, so why don't you explain what the difference is, Professor.

Well now!

Kudos for being the first rightie in recent memory to actually take the time to ask! :thumbs:

For starters, socialists believe that the means of production and distribution should be owned by the state.

Liberals, on the other hand, believe the means of production and distribution should be privately owned with government oversight and regulation.

Not having such regulation is like having a football game with no rules and no refs.

You end up with Enron.

[tnedator]

???



Well now!

Kudos for being the first rightie in recent memory to actually take the time to ask! :thumbs:

For starters, socialists believe that the means of production and distribution should be owned by the state.

Liberals, on the other hand, believe the means of production and distribution should be privately owned with government oversight and regulation.

Not having such regulation is like having a football game with no rules and no refs.

You end up with Enron.

Agreed on the technical definitions. The reason I said "does it matter" or something to that effect, is that the lines have been blurred in recent decades. For instance, many countries, such as in Western Europe, have what many consider socialized health care, but the countries them selves are not socialist societies.

While I don't think that many democrats want to move to a society that takes ownership of the production and distribution, I do feel they want to go beyond simple oversite and regulation (although 'regulating' can be a VERY broad term, which could essentially become a pseudo control/ownership).

Since we all know people say whatever they think it takes to get elected, it is very hard to distinguish the rhetoric meant to pander to certain blocks of voters from what they would actually do given the chance.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

While I don't think that many democrats want to move to a society that takes ownership of the production and distribution, I do feel they want to go beyond simple oversite and regulation (although 'regulating' can be a VERY broad term, which could essentially become a pseudo control/ownership).


A lot of people in America who are too young to remember what this country was like before the Reagan Revolution have no idea how radically the consensus view on some of these things has changed since then:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/08/06/3003/

In any event, most liberals don't want some sort of de facto ownership situation - they just want a level playing field, i.e., for America to return to being the nation of laws the framers intended (as opposed to the sort of nation where big business pulls the strings of puppets in government and "he who has the gold makes the rules.")

If we leave it up to the "free market" then it's just survival of the fittest, i.e., socioeconomic Darwinism, and there are no caps placed on greed.

[W*GS]

For starters, socialists believe that the means of production and distribution should be owned by the state.

Liberals, on the other hand, believe the means of production and distribution should be privately owned with government oversight and regulation.

Another instance of LABFian disingenuousness.

He advocates a level of "oversight and regulation" (purposefully left vague so he can try to wriggle out of any argument) that is de facto control. Ownership then becomes a mere legality with no real meaning.

Not having such regulation is like having a football game with no rules and no refs.

Whereas you'd have a football game with the refs outnumbering the players 10:1, every play reviewed, the talent on each team evenly divided, all points scored awarded to both teams equally, the best game being a 0-0 tie, and spectators forced to watch whether they wanted to or not.

You end up with Enron.

Under your ideology, we end up with the Gulag.

Besides, Enron wasn't a case of pure laissez-faire capitalism, it was a case of completely botched regulation.

[Rohirrim]

Another instance of LABFian disingenuousness.

He advocates a level of "oversight and regulation" (purposefully left vague so he can try to wriggle out of any argument) that is de facto control. Ownership then becomes a mere legality with no real meaning.



Whereas you'd have a football game with the refs outnumbering the players 10:1, every play reviewed, the talent on each team evenly divided, all points scored awarded to both teams equally, the best game being a 0-0 tie, and spectators forced to watch whether they wanted to or not.



Under your ideology, we end up with the Gulag.

Besides, Enron wasn't a case of pure laissez-faire capitalism, it was a case of completely botched regulation.

And yet you accept the idea of the powers of government being split into three branches, ie. you accept the idea that government should have its powers limited, but believe that the powers of capitalism should be completely unhindered. So avariciousness is dangerous to society, but greed is good?

[W*GS]

And yet you accept the idea of the powers of government being split into three branches, ie. you accept the idea that government should have its powers limited, but believe that the powers of capitalism should be completely unhindered.

Where did I say that?

So avariciousness is dangerous to society, but greed is good?

Governments are more than merely avaricious. And, so far as I can tell, "greed" is your unkind euphemism for "ambition".

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I was going to respond to your previous post (your response to mine, until I got to the end, when it just turned into inflammatory McCain bashing (slimeball, wants to start WWIII, etc.).

You might be a proud socialist, but I spend a lot of time in Europe and talk to people there. They talk about how their national health service (socialized medicine) doesn't work. How their family members wait weeks or months for an appointment with a specialist to DETERMINE if they need a surgery or cancer treatment.

Basically, anyone that can afford private insurance, have purchased private insurance and started using fee-for-service doctors and dentists, because it is the only way to get good, timely medical care.

I agree there are many things in this country that need to be fixed, including the out of control medical costs, but adding more entitlements and moving towards a socialized society isn't the answer.


I'm sorry, but this is a typical republican answer. The "i know people in europe and they say it doesnt work." You know what doesn't work? 50 million people uninsured. That doesnt work. I'm personally insured and my health insurance STILL sucks. God forbid i ever get sick, ill have to die because I can't afford the coverage. I'm sure I can find you some people in France that enjoy their health coverage and, if they want to buy more insurance, great for them. But there are too many americans, especially children, who cant even afford ANY insurance and would probably love to wait on your long lines. We're the richest country in the world, by far. It's unacceptable that we dont have some form of universal healthcare. (Plus, look at quality of life surveys...these horrible socialized countries in Europe normally rank near the top and dont have close to the money we enjoy...i know thats just a slice, but still, cant be ignored.)

We've proved that we can have successful "socialized medicine" programs. Ask anyone who uses medicare, medicaid, or thats in the military. See, the government gets some stuff right.

And sorry for my McCain bashing, I get frustrated. But, judging by his hot headed nature, his talking points (like after the Georgia incident), and his penchant to gamble, I dont think its outo f line to claim he'll do it. After all, this is the guy who glibly sang "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb iran"

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

And yet you accept the idea of the powers of government being split into three branches, ie. you accept the idea that government should have its powers limited, but believe that the powers of capitalism should be completely unhindered. So avariciousness is dangerous to society, but greed is good?

Good God - W*GS has veered so far off topic and into straw man land I don't think he's even following the thread of this discussion anymore.

I knew any sort of challenge to St. Ron's "greed is good" religion would rattle him. ;)

[Rohirrim]

Where did I say that?

So you don't agree with the form of government we have in America? That's a revelation.



Governments are more than merely avaricious. And, so far as I can tell, "greed" is your unkind euphemism for "ambition".

Governments are nothing but conceptual frameworks. Governments are a tool a society uses to meet its collective needs. It is people who are avaricious and greedy, not governments.

Greed is the pursuit of wealth for its own sake.

[W*GS]

So you don't agree with the form of government we have in America? That's a revelation.

Where did I say that "the powers of capitalism should be completely unhindered"?

Governments are nothing but conceptual frameworks. Governments are a tool a society uses to meet its collective needs. It is people who are avaricious and greedy, not governments.

OK, you got me there. Like I've said many times before, if people are too flawed to be trusted with power (monetary and otherwise), then it behooves us to keep government as weak as possible, lest the flawed people within it use its monopoly on force to do Bad Things. Do you disagree?

Greed is the pursuit of wealth for its own sake.

What about the pursuit of power for its own sake, i.e., Bush and his minions? Is that whatever-you-call-it better or worse than mere greed?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So you don't agree with the form of government we have in America? That's a revelation.

;D

He's dreaming of an island somewhere that's just like "Lord of the Flies."

[Rohirrim]

Where did I say that "the powers of capitalism should be completely unhindered"?

What do you propose as a mechanism to hinder them?



OK, you got me there. Like I've said many times before, if people are too flawed to be trusted with power (monetary and otherwise), then it behooves us to keep government as weak as possible, lest the flawed people within it use its monopoly on force to do Bad Things. Do you disagree?

IMO, what you need to do is have laws that regulate the actions of people within the government and enforce them. The people are supposed to be in control of the government, not vice versa. This is what disgusts me about Pelosi. By taking impeachment "off the table" she is refusing to enforce the law. That is the greatest crime one in government can commit.



What about the pursuit of power for its own sake, i.e., Bush and his minions? Is that whatever-you-call-it better or worse than mere greed?

About the same in its effect. They get intertwined. The greedy gain economic power and try and turn it into political power, etc. etc. The law must be the final redoubt.

[tnedator]

And sorry for my McCain bashing, I get frustrated. But, judging by his hot headed nature, his talking points (like after the Georgia incident), and his penchant to gamble, I dont think its outo f line to claim he'll do it. After all, this is the guy who glibly sang "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb iran"

I answered 'honestly' my opinions about why I thought McCain should be elected, and followed the 'rules' posted by the person asking the question not to bash Obama as a 'reason' for voting for McCain, yet my respones get used to bash McCain.

It needs to be a two way street.

[W*GS]

What do you propose as a mechanism to hinder them?

In cases where the market fails to correct behavior, then the government can step in, preferably using market-like means.

I'd much rather the government be a creator of information and transparency than a heavy-handed dictator of mere rules.

IMO, what you need to do is have laws that regulate the actions of people within the government and enforce them. The people are supposed to be in control of the government, not vice versa.

Indeed - so what do you do when the government creates generations of addicts to what it provides? Paul will always support robbing Peter, when Paul is the beneficiary. Add in the fact that politicians never turn down the chance to receive more power, and we end up with a positive feedback loop. How to stop that?

About the same in its effect. They get intertwined. The greedy gain economic power and try and turn it into political power, etc. etc. The law must be the final redoubt.

Has Bill Gates tried to become a dictator?

[Rohirrim]

In cases where the market fails to correct behavior, then the government can step in, preferably using market-like means.

I'd much rather the government be a creator of information and transparency than a heavy-handed dictator of mere rules.



Indeed - so what do you do when the government creates generations of addicts to what it provides? Paul will always support robbing Peter, when Paul is the beneficiary. Add in the fact that politicians never turn down the chance to receive more power, and we end up with a positive feedback loop. How to stop that?



Has Bill Gates tried to become a dictator?

Ask Sun Microsystems. ;D

[DenverBrit]

Ask Sun Microsystems. ;D

We need more like Bill Gates. ;D

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm

[Rigs11]

Getting back to the topic, isn't refreshing to see Obama, state that Palin's daughter's pregnancy is irrelevant? Now reverse the situation and imagine the right wing smear attack and religious nuts going full bore had it happened to Obama's daughter.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I answered 'honestly' my opinions about why I thought McCain should be elected, and followed the 'rules' posted by the person asking the question not to bash Obama as a 'reason' for voting for McCain, yet my respones get used to bash McCain.

It needs to be a two way street.

This is true, the slimeball comment was uncalled for. Though i do believe he'd like to start WW3. I don't think thats bashing...it might be speculation, but he likes to use war as a foreign policy tactic.

[Rohirrim]

Getting back to the topic, isn't refreshing to see Obama, state that Palin's daughter's pregnancy is irrelevant? Now reverse the situation and imagine the right wing smear attack and religious nuts going full bore had it happened to Obama's daughter.

Really. Just imagine for a moment if Obama had an unmarried 17 year old daughter who was pregnant. What would Fox do? Hannity? Brit Hume? Rush? Can you just imagine? It would be like throwing a pork chop into a cage full of pit bulls.

[Rigs11]

Really. Just imagine for a moment if Obama had an unmarried 17 year old daughter who was pregnant. What would Fox do? Hannity? Brit Hume? Rush? Can you just imagine? It would be like throwing a pork chop into a cage full of pit bulls.

Yep and now the evangelicals all support Palin's daughter because they say she is pro life. Subjective morals anyone?Hilarious!

[Rohirrim]

Yep and now the evangelicals all support Palin's daughter because they say she is pro life. Subjective morals anyone?Hilarious!

I've always said, the Right Wingers live by the Humpty Dumpty code: "My words mean whatever I want them to mean."

[TailgateNut]

Where's the kook from Focus on the Family. Is he still praying for rain at the DNC? He should be exorcizing the demons from Palin Daughter. ...and what happened to the abstinence program Mrs. I'm anti abortion, even in cases of incest and rape, must have been teaching her daughter.

Hands Off, my ass. Double standard MF's made their bed. Now they'll have to lie in it.

[Blueflame]

Where's the kook from Focus on the Family. Is he still praying for rain at the DNC? He should be exorcizing the demons from Palin Daughter. ...and what happened to the abstinence program Mrs. I'm anti abortion, even in cases of incest and rape, must have been teaching her daughter.

Hands Off, my ass. Double standard MF's made their bed. Now they'll have to lie in it.

With apologies to Green Day, it's all "Do as I say; not as I do because the sh*t's so deep you can't run away"....

[Rohirrim]

Where's the kook from Focus on the Family. Is he still praying for rain at the DNC? He should be exorcizing the demons from Palin Daughter. ...and what happened to the abstinence program Mrs. I'm anti abortion, even in cases of incest and rape, must have been teaching her daughter.

Hands Off, my ass. Double standard MF's made their bed. Now they'll have to lie in it.

That's an interesting question. Where is Dobson? What about Pat Robertson? Hagee? I'd like their take on this whole affair. Why isn't the press asking them their opinions? Hell, they ask them about hurricanes and Iraq. They can't ask them about this?

[MplsBronco]

Now there are pics circulating showing Bristol with alcohol. Her mother really screwed her over on this one.

[Drek]

I was going to respond to your previous post (your response to mine, until I got to the end, when it just turned into inflammatory McCain bashing (slimeball, wants to start WWIII, etc.).

You might be a proud socialist, but I spend a lot of time in Europe and talk to people there. They talk about how their national health service (socialized medicine) doesn't work. How their family members wait weeks or months for an appointment with a specialist to DETERMINE if they need a surgery or cancer treatment.

Basically, anyone that can afford private insurance, have purchased private insurance and started using fee-for-service doctors and dentists, because it is the only way to get good, timely medical care.

I agree there are many things in this country that need to be fixed, including the out of control medical costs, but adding more entitlements and moving towards a socialized society isn't the answer.

Who is proposing socialized medicine in the U.S.?

Nader? First I've heard if so.

Now there is a clear divide between Obama and McCain, in that McCain's health plan calls for a tax deduction equal to about half of what medical coverage actually costs, and if you don't pay at least that much in for taxes (not counting any other deductions) you're losing out.

Basically a tax plan to favor McCain's class, the independently wealthy.

Obama's plan however calls for everyone to have the choice of picking up the same health care package our political representatives have. Key word there being CHOICE. People will be required to insure their children, which is a pretty basic step towards being able to parent well if you ask me, but other than that its your option.

At the same time he'll implement regulations on just how much pharmaceutical companies and the like can charge for needed medicines and services.

Example: You want viagra? You can be gouged beyond belief. You need blood pressure medicine? They need to make it reasonably priced.

He also would transition benefits from a reactive system that just treats diseases after the fact to one that is proactive and enables people to keep regular schedule appointments and maintain good health.

Like many things with Obama's campaign, the policy itself is so obviously fundamentally sound and well thought out that it is shocking anyone would speak out against it. Like many of his other campaign policies though, when you actually dig into the policy with someone who rails against it you find that they had no idea the real details or implementation and were basing it off some misconception of a socialist society.

[DenverBrit]

If McCain had any sense, he'd ditch Palin quickly, choose a VP without pandering to the morality nuts and move on.

If he had any sense.

[TailgateNut]

If McCain had any sense, he'd ditch Palin quickly, choose a VP without pandering to the morality nuts and move on.

If he had any sense.


Too late. He's seen her ass and wants to "tap it". The guy is a certifiable perv.
Cindy should thank her lucky stars she had Perv-man sign a pre-nup.

[Garcia Bronco]

Who is proposing socialized medicine in the U.S.?

.

Obama is. Because the end result of subsidized health care is socialized medicine.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Obama is. Because the end result of subsidized health care is socialized medicine.

Obama's health care plan isn't "socialized medicine" at all. Hell, I wish it was. Hillary's one is the one that would require the mandate (and the only one that would work, by the way....actually its edwards's plan, but hill adopted it.) Its hardly a single payer system.

Having said it, its still leaps and bounds better than mccains, whos advisor on healthcare seems to think health care is not a problem at all because, if youre really sick, an emergency room cant turn you away....idiot

[Garcia Bronco]

Obama's health care plan isn't "socialized medicine" at all. Hell, I wish it was. Hillary's one is the one that would require the mandate (and the only one that would work, by the way....actually its edwards's plan, but hill adopted it.) Its hardly a single payer system.

Having said it, its still leaps and bounds better than mccains, whos advisor on healthcare seems to think health care is not a problem at all because, if youre really sick, an emergency room cant turn you away....idiot

Subsidized healthcare WILL lead to socialized medicine because it's a bottomless black hole like medicare and social security.

[Rigs11]

Wonder how Mccane feels about teen mothers?


McCain Opposed Funds For Teen Moms-To-Be
GOP Candidate's Record Examined In Wake Of News That VP Pick's Teen Daughter Is Pregnant


(AP) Republican John McCain, whose running mate disclosed that her unmarried 17-year-old daughter is pregnant, has opposed proposals to spend federal money on teen-pregnancy prevention programs and voted to require poor teen mothers to stay in school or lose their benefits.

Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's announcement Monday about her daughter, Bristol, was aimed at rebutting Internet rumors that Palin's youngest son, born in April, was actually her daughter's. Palin said her daughter intends to raise her child and marry the baby's father, who was identified only by his first name, Levi. The baby is due in late December.

McCain's record on issues surrounding teen pregnancy and contraceptives during his more than two decades in the Senate indicates that he and Palin have similar views. Until Monday, when the subject surfaced in a deeply personal manner, teen pregnancy and sex education were not issues in the national political campaign.

Palin herself said she opposes funding sexual-education programs in Alaska.

"The explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support," she wrote in a 2006 questionnaire distributed among gubernatorial candidates.

McCain's position on contraceptives and teen pregnancy issues has been difficult to judge on the campaign trail, as he appears uncomfortable discussing such topics. Reporters asked the presumptive GOP presidential nominee in November 2007 whether he supported grants for sex education in the United States, whether such programs should include directions for using contraceptives and whether he supports President Bush's policy of promoting abstinence.

"Ahhh, I think I support the president's policy," McCain said.

When reporters pressed McCain whether the government should provide contraceptives or counseling on contraceptives, he replied, "You've stumped me." McCain said later that he was sure he opposed government spending on contraceptives.

The McCain campaign on Monday did not respond to repeated requests for information.

In Senate votes, McCain has opposed some proposals to pay for teen-pregnancy prevention programs. In 2006, McCain joined fellow Republicans in voting against a Senate Democratic proposal to send $100 million to communities for teen-pregnancy prevention programs that would have included sex education about contraceptives.

In 2005, McCain opposed a Senate Democratic proposal that would have spent tens of millions of dollars to pay for pregnancy prevention programs other than abstinence-only education, including education on emergency contraception such as the morning-after pill. The bill also would have required insurance companies that cover Viagra to also pay for prescription contraception.

McCain voted for the Family Support Act in 1988, which passed overwhelmingly in the Senate and required teen mothers who receive public assistance to remain in high school and, in some cases, to live with their parents.

"Young parents who have not completed high school will be required to stay in or return to school to complete the basic education so necessary to a productive life," said President Reagan, as he signed the law in October 1988.

McCain cited abortion, sex education and birth control as some of the issues on which he differed with Joycelyn Elders, former President Clinton's nominee for surgeon general. He quoted Elders as telling lawmakers that abortion has had positive health effects, including reducing the number of children "afflicted with severe defects."

"As a father of a number of young children, including an adopted daughter who was born with a birth defect, I am deeply, deeply troubled by these views," McCain said in a 1993 speech opposing Elders' confirmation.

Palin's fifth child, a son named Trig, was born in April with Down syndrome, a genetic abnormality that impedes physical, intellectual and language development. Conservatives supportive of Palin as McCain's running mate have praised her choice to deliver Trig even after the family learned about his condition during prenatal testing.

McCain said the country unarguably had a problem with teen pregnancy, but said Elders' approach would only make it worse. He said Elders started a program to distribute condoms in schools, but the rate of teen pregnancy actually rose in those counties. When it turned out many of the condoms were defective, Elders decided to continue the program rather than halt it or inform the public of the risk, McCain added.



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/02/politics/main4406313.shtml

[Drek]

Subsidized healthcare WILL lead to socialized medicine because it's a bottomless black hole like medicare and social security.

Medicare and social security wouldn't be such "bottomless black holes" if the GOP poster boy Ronny Reagan hadn't felt the need to tap into them while driving up our national debt.

Also, Obama's plan subsidizes health care through companies and the industry, it isn't about mailing out bottomless checks, its about implementing the kinds of tax breaks and regulations needed to promote employers offering good health care (that doesn't cost half a paycheck to ensure a family of four), and that keeps the pharmaceuticals from gouging those in need.

Now maybe you don't think good health is a right we should seek to offer every American citizen and you like the idea of cancer patients being denied treatment because they can't afford it. If so just admit it, don't throw up straw man after straw man like somehow one of them will hold up.

[Garcia Bronco]

Medicare and social security wouldn't be such "bottomless black holes" if the GOP poster boy Ronny Reagan hadn't felt the need to tap into them while driving up our national debt.

Also, Obama's plan subsidizes health care through companies and the industry, it isn't about mailing out bottomless checks, its about implementing the kinds of tax breaks and regulations needed to promote employers offering good health care (that doesn't cost half a paycheck to ensure a family of four), and that keeps the pharmaceuticals from gouging those in need.

Now maybe you don't think good health is a right we should seek to offer every American citizen and you like the idea of cancer patients being denied treatment because they can't afford it. If so just admit it, don't throw up straw man after straw man like somehow one of them will hold up.

Every employer I have ever worked for offers subsidized health care. From fricking Pizza hut to now I have always had access to health care. Obama wants to raise taxes and use that money and hand it to insurance companies. Once this fails we'll be primed for socialized medicine. At that point we won't be able to see doctors because of waiting. It will also mean a complete reduction in services

[Garcia Bronco]

In 2005, McCain opposed a Senate Democratic proposal that would have spent tens of millions of dollars to pay for pregnancy prevention programs other than abstinence-only education, including education on emergency contraception such as the morning-after pill. The bill also would have required insurance companies that cover Viagra to also pay for prescription contraception.




I would have voted this down as well. Insurance companies should not have to pay for prescription contraception.

[Blueflame]

I would have voted this down as well. Insurance companies should not have to pay for prescription contraception.

They shouldn't have to pay for "boner pills" either.

[Garcia Bronco]

They shouldn't have to pay for "boner pills" either.

Boner pills as it's put are corrective medicine for a disease. Birth control is pill for a decision. One is inyour control, and the other isn't. Based on the distinction I wouldn't support that piece of the legislation. I mean unless you can prove that a particular girl is a nympomaniac

[Drek]

Every employer I have ever worked for offers subsidized health care. From fricking Pizza hut to now I have always had access to health care. Obama wants to raise taxes and use that money and hand it to insurance companies. Once this fails we'll be primed for socialized medicine. At that point we won't be able to see doctors because of waiting. It will also mean a complete reduction in services

1. Obama's tax plan will lower taxes more than McCain's for 95% of America.

2. His health care plan calls for increasing tax deductions and helping companies further subsidize their employee's health care.

It doesn't call for hand outs to insurance companies and in fact will add a good bit of regulation to force them to clean up the bureaucracy. It calls for incentivizing companies that offer lower cost health care for their employees, especially small businesses.

[TDmvp]

yea i don't want tax dollars paying for boners LOL ....

[Rigs11]

yea i don't want tax dollars paying for boners LOL ....

Then oppose the Boner BillHa!

[Garcia Bronco]

1. Obama's tax plan will lower taxes more than McCain's for 95% of America.

2. His health care plan calls for increasing tax deductions and helping companies further subsidize their employee's health care.

It doesn't call for hand outs to insurance companies and in fact will add a good bit of regulation to force them to clean up the bureaucracy. It calls for incentivizing companies that offer lower cost health care for their employees, especially small businesses.

95 percent of America on Income tax. These aren't the only taxes we pay.

[TDmvp]

Then oppose the Boner BillHa!

Hilarious!



I just think when it stops working it is a sign LOL ....

And if you have seen the movie "I Think I Love My Wife" with Chris Rock you wouldn't go near a boner pill LOL ... He gets the 4 hour version and needs medical help for it heheh ...

[Blueflame]

Boner pills as it's put are corrective medicine for a disease. Birth control is pill for a decision. One is inyour control, and the other isn't. Based on the distinction I wouldn't support that piece of the legislation.

ED is not a disease, per se. It's a condition... and a non-life-threatening one at that. Pregnancy is also a condition... one that can threaten the woman's life. Men won't die without Viagra. Some women could die without contraceptives.

[Rohirrim]

If you mix Viagra with one of those drugs that treat restless leg syndrome, does it make your weiner wiggle?

[snowspot66]

Boner pills as it's put are corrective medicine for a disease. Birth control is pill for a decision. One is inyour control, and the other isn't. Based on the distinction I wouldn't support that piece of the legislation. I mean unless you can prove that a particular girl is a nympomaniac

A disease? Dude, when your dick stops working it's nature's way of saying you should stop. It's not a disease. Aging isn't a disease. It's just what happens.

We'd save a hell of a lot more money in this country if we would reduce unwanted pregnancies and stop subsidizing the horny old bastards that refuse to accept they are getting old (I bet their wives would be on board with this one).

My generation is getting pretty annoyed with the baby boomers and it's because they won't accept that they'll grow old one day (but they already are). It's the least graceful group of geriatrics in history. I can't turn the TV on without seeing a dozen boner commercials filled with innuendo and old people slyly winking and nudging each other as if they are a bunch of high school teenagers. Horny and too embarrassed to just say so.

[Garcia Bronco]

A disease? Dude, when your dick stops working it's nature's way of saying you should stop. It's not a disease. Aging isn't a disease. It's just what happens.

We'd save a hell of a lot more money in this country if we would reduce unwanted pregnancies and stop subsidizing the horny old bastards that refuse to accept they are getting old (I bet their wives would be on board with this one).

My generation is getting pretty annoyed with the baby boomers and it's because they won't accept that they'll grow old one day (but they already are). It's the least graceful group of geriatrics in history. I can't turn the TV on without seeing a dozen boner commercials filled with innuendo and old people slyly winking and nudging each other as if they are a bunch of high school teenagers. Horny and too embarrassed to just say so.


There 20 year-olds that can't get it up. It's not just old people.

[Garcia Bronco]

ED is not a disease, per se. It's a condition... and a non-life-threatening one at that. Pregnancy is also a condition... one that can threaten the woman's life. Men won't die without Viagra. Some women could die without contraceptives.

It's still a condition versus a decision.

[Rigs11]

Hilarious!



I just think when it stops working it is a sign LOL ....

And if you have seen the movie "I Think I Love My Wife" with Chris Rock you wouldn't go near a boner pill LOL ... He gets the 4 hour version and needs medical help for it heheh ...

I saw that movie. Freaking hilarious!ROFL!

[Rigs11]

It's still a condition versus a decision.

One can decide to abstain if they can't get it up can't they? isn't that a decision?

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Are we really comparing birth control to viagra?

[Blueflame]

It's still a condition versus a decision.

How is preventing an unwanted pregnancy... particularly for a woman whose doctor says she shouldn't become pregnant... different than immunizations to prevent say measles, mumps, or tetanus?

There are women of all childbearing ages whose health is too fragile to support a pregnancy... it's not just a decision or a choice for some women; it's their lives in the balance if they don't have access to some reliable form of contraception.

[frerottenextelway]

O'Reilly, consistent as ever.

On the pinhead front, 16-year-old Jamie Lynn Spears is pregnant. The sister of Britney says she is shocked. I bet.

Now most teens are pinheads in some ways. But here the blame falls primarily on the parents of the girl, who obviously have little control over her or even over Britney Spears. Look at the way she behaves.

[kappys]

It's still a condition versus a decision.

Its a benign non life-threatening condition. You want the government to start paying for plastic surgery? How about sex change operations? Laser eye corrections?

Comparing erectile dysfunction to hypertension is a bad joke.

[Rohirrim]

A disease? Dude, when your dick stops working it's nature's way of saying you should stop. It's not a disease. Aging isn't a disease. It's just what happens.

We'd save a hell of a lot more money in this country if we would reduce unwanted pregnancies and stop subsidizing the horny old bastards that refuse to accept they are getting old (I bet their wives would be on board with this one).

My generation is getting pretty annoyed with the baby boomers and it's because they won't accept that they'll grow old one day (but they already are). It's the least graceful group of geriatrics in history. I can't turn the TV on without seeing a dozen boner commercials filled with innuendo and old people slyly winking and nudging each other as if they are a bunch of high school teenagers. Horny and too embarrassed to just say so.

You need to exercise a little discretion. What you are seeing is not a bunch of baby boomers. What you are seeing is massive marketing campaigns targeting baby boomers.

[TDmvp]

I saw that movie. Freaking hilarious!ROFL!

they really misrepresented that movie in previews , and trailers.
They made it out like it was going to be more dirty then it was , and sleazier then it was ... It was maybe Chris Rocks best movie as the lead so far ... It was more of a Date movie then they made it out to be , By watching the trailer you would have thought it was just nothing but a sex romp. when really it was just a funny take on life , and a love story ...



sorry to hijack for a sec .... back to topic hehe ...

[Rohirrim]

O'Reilly, consistent as ever.

I'm sure that O'Reilly will agree that his assessment applies to Palin as well. No doubt. :rofl:

[defenseman]

The ENTIRE republican campaign is designed to take your eye off what's important. They are the king of Rovian politics....make the election about character and take it off the issues. Hypocrites...all of you.

The dems did the EXACT same thing fool..dman

[SonOfLe-loLang]

The dems did the EXACT same thing fool..dman

Uh, since when? The democrats FOR YEARS have tried to run on the issues and FINALLY realized americans are too stupid to care. So they've FINALLY started attacking character while still keeping the issues on the forefront.

How do you even put your socks on in the morning without getting confused?

[ScottXray]

I'm one of those geriatric baby boomers, and while my willie still works fine, I can understand how seeing all the commercials promoting the use of Viagra, Cialis, urinary bladder control, etc, can be upsetting. Hell, I find them to be disgusting ads, that are promoting a product that really doesn't deserve all the attention it gets. I don't recall seeing many, if any of these type ads over about ten years ago.

Now, they are as common as automobile ads, of which there are also too many.

You should really be more upset with the Companies promoting those products, because they are the ones responsible for their content. I'm sure they use baby boomers in the ads because that is the target audience, and while there are probably many of those people that have ligitimate need for the product, it is the extremely high profits they make on such pills that lend them to put so many of these ads promoting their products, and depicting the boomers as the Generation that won't grow old. The television nets, of course, don't turn down anything that makes them money either. Not to mention the doctors who receive visits from patients..."hey doc fix me up , I gotta get me some o THAT!

Frankly, while I still find sex enjoyable, it ISN"T a priority in my life, and I think most people my age that are in relationships probably feel the same way. The ads depict us as horny, but needing a pill to get it up, keep from wetting ourselves or crapping our pants. Most of us are neither extremely horny, nor pissing our pants. For the record, you aren't the only one that is sick of these ads.

[defenseman]

Uh, since when? The democrats FOR YEARS have tried to run on the issues and FINALLY realized americans are too stupid to care. So they've FINALLY started attacking character while still keeping the issues on the forefront.

How do you even put your socks on in the morning without getting confused?

Riiiiighttttt....enjoy the koolaide fool......you've been dupped again....courtesy of the DNC.......got to hand it to them, if you can't compete, marginalize your opponent with BS......gee, that sounds familiar, right in line with the daily KOS and the lefties on the mane...congrats moron...dman

[defenseman]

I'm one of those geriatric baby boomers, and while my willie still works fine, I can understand how seeing all the commercials promoting the use of Viagra, Cialis, urinary bladder control, etc, can be upsetting. Hell, I find them to be disgusting ads, that are promoting a product that really doesn't deserve all the attention it gets. I don't recall seeing many, if any of these type ads over about ten years ago.

Now, they are as common as automobile ads, of which there are also too many.

You should really be more upset with the Companies promoting those products, because they are the ones responsible for their content. I'm sure they use baby boomers in the ads because that is the target audience, and while there are probably many of those people that have ligitimate need for the product, it is the extremely high profits they make on such pills that lend them to put so many of these ads promoting their products, and depicting the boomers as the Generation that won't grow old. The television nets, of course, don't turn down anything that makes them money either. Not to mention the doctors who receive visits from patients..."hey doc fix me up , I gotta get me some o THAT!

Frankly, while I still find sex enjoyable, it ISN"T a priority in my life, and I think most people my age that are in relationships probably feel the same way. The ads depict us as horny, but needing a pill to get it up, keep from wetting ourselves or crapping our pants. Most of us are neither extremely horny, nor pissing our pants. For the record, you aren't the only one that is sick of these ads.

My,my with all the respect you shower your fellow american with, can't wait till your "savior" gets in office, wonder what he'll respect? Not us, I'll gaurantee you that...dman

[Rohirrim]

Dman, I sometimes wonder if you don't sit in your car in the garage listening to Rush for a couple of hours until you're in a frenzy and then you burst onto this board and just go bat**** crazy. ;D

[ScottXray]

My,my with all the respect you shower your fellow american with, can't wait till your "savior" gets in office, wonder what he'll respect? Not us, I'll gaurantee you that...dman

WTF? Which fellow american did I do anything to ...you are a belligerant
jerk, or have reading comprehension problems.

[BroncoInferno]

You guys realize you are bringing a freaking 17 yr old girl to the spotlight. Kid is probably ashamed as hell right now and you ****s are just getting a kick at it. I thought the repubs were willing to sink to any level but I guess both sides are.

Do YOU realize that her mom KNEW that by running that it would bring her daghters mistake to center stage. Says a lot about mom, doen't it?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Riiiiighttttt....enjoy the koolaide fool......

Hilarious!

This from a guy who is still carrying water for one of the worst presidents in U.S. history (and for a party that has devolved into a cesspool of corruption over these last eight years?)

A party that finally achieved its goal of a "permanent Republican majority" - only to piss its "progress" away via its own incompetence, corruption, and criminality?

That's priceless. :giggle:

[BroncoInferno]

Dman, I sometimes wonder if you don't sit in your car in the garage listening to Rush for a couple of hours until you're in a frenzy and then you burst onto this board and just go bat**** crazy. ;D

Dman tries to pretend he's some kind of pragmatist, but his posts tell the rest of us that he is a hopeless right-wing kool-aid guzzler based on the sh*t and slogans he buys from the right, and the legitiamate sh*t he ignores perpetrated from the right.

[Traveler]

Dman, I sometimes wonder if you don't sit in your car in the garage listening to Rush for a couple of hours until you're in a frenzy and then you burst onto this board and just go bat**** crazy. ;D

My money is still on Dman blowing a fuse if Obama gets elected.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

My money is still on Dman blowing a fuse if Obama gets elected.

Ha!

That would be his worst nightmare. :D

(Think Eddie Murphy in that scene from "48 Hours" where he borrows Nolte's badge and rousts the redneck bar.) ;)

[TheDave]

Riiiiighttttt....enjoy the koolaide fool......you've been dupped again....courtesy of the DNC.......got to hand it to them, if you can't compete, marginalize your opponent with BS......gee, that sounds familiar, right in line with the daily KOS and the lefties on the mane...congrats moron...dman

And we have a winner!


Whoever had Dman in the "Meltdown Pool" you can pick up your prizes at the front desk... :thumbs:

[tnedator]

Who is proposing socialized medicine in the U.S.?

Nader? First I've heard if so.

Now there is a clear divide between Obama and McCain, in that McCain's health plan calls for a tax deduction equal to about half of what medical coverage actually costs, and if you don't pay at least that much in for taxes (not counting any other deductions) you're losing out.

Basically a tax plan to favor McCain's class, the independently wealthy.

Obama's plan however calls for everyone to have the choice of picking up the same health care package our political representatives have. Key word there being CHOICE. People will be required to insure their children, which is a pretty basic step towards being able to parent well if you ask me, but other than that its your option.

At the same time he'll implement regulations on just how much pharmaceutical companies and the like can charge for needed medicines and services.

Example: You want viagra? You can be gouged beyond belief. You need blood pressure medicine? They need to make it reasonably priced.

He also would transition benefits from a reactive system that just treats diseases after the fact to one that is proactive and enables people to keep regular schedule appointments and maintain good health.

Like many things with Obama's campaign, the policy itself is so obviously fundamentally sound and well thought out that it is shocking anyone would speak out against it. Like many of his other campaign policies though, when you actually dig into the policy with someone who rails against it you find that they had no idea the real details or implementation and were basing it off some misconception of a socialist society.

I agree, that 'sounds' good, and will get a lot of votes, but it sounded good when the Clintons said it as well, but we are still in the same boat we were then. Possibly worse (not due to anything they did/didn't do, but simply time and no reform).

It's easy to say that everyone will get the same care as the senators, that there insurance companies can no longer exclude pre-existing conditions, that drug companies can't 'gouge' on necessary medications. Those things 'sound' good, I am just not sure how they are implemented in reality.

I know many people think that the profits that drug companies and oil companies get are obscene and need to be 'taken away' from them. Maybe they do, I honestly don't know. However, the question I then have is that if we no longer let drug companies from charging premiums for new drugs while they have patents on them, then what incentive do they have to spend the research dollars on the 99 losers, before they find the one winning drug?

If we tell insurance companies that they can't exclude pre-existing conditions (the story Obama told about his mother), then that means everyone's premiums will go up, because the cost to the insurance companies will go up. There is no way around this.

I am all for coming up with some way for everyone to be insured, or otherwise have medical coverage. However, I am skeptical that Obama (or anyone else) really has a plan to accomplish that.

What I do know is that somehow medical costs have to come down. Some say lawsuits and such are the cause of the outrageous costs, some say it accounts for only a couple percent. Hospitals covering the cost of non-insured probably accounts for part of it.

My wife had two surgeries and spent 4 days in an LA area hospital, and the bill was over $150k, and it wasn't even emergency/trauma type surgery. No ICU time. One two hour surgery, one four hour surgery with an oncological surgeon.

However, I will admit that I have not looked at Obama's website to see if he has specific details about how he will accomplish all of this, so I will do so. Up to this point, I have only heard him speaking the poltical buzzwords that all politicians say, because they know people want to hear it.

[snowspot66]

If we tell insurance companies that they can't exclude pre-existing conditions (the story Obama told about his mother), then that means everyone's premiums will go up, because the cost to the insurance companies will go up. There is no way around this.


For once in our history a generation has to step up and take the bullet. Perhaps this is that bullet. I will be able to have health insurance only because of the fact that I was covered by my parent's insurance when I was diagnosed with Crohn's Disease. Because I had coverage then I will be able to continue it. In theory.

It's such a bad situation I've heard of instances where doctors PURPOSEFULLY misdiagnosed a disease because it would not **** up the patient's future life by preventing them from purchasing life insurance.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the system when a citizen of the U.S. could be forced to move to another country in order to receive health care. If I can't continue insurance after age 25 I'll have to move to Canada. I'm in college. I can't afford $24,000 in medicine (not services, just the meds) every year.

Or we can continue as we are I guess and just let people fall by the wayside.

[Spider]

Boner pills as it's put are corrective medicine for a disease. Birth control is pill for a decision. One is inyour control, and the other isn't. Based on the distinction I wouldn't support that piece of the legislation. I mean unless you can prove that a particular girl is a nympomaniac

You Idiot ........ the pill also controls PMS .........

[tnedator]

For once in our history a generation has to step up and take the bullet. Perhaps this is that bullet. I will be able to have health insurance only because of the fact that I was covered by my parent's insurance when I was diagnosed with Crohn's Disease. Because I had coverage then I will be able to continue it. In theory.

It's such a bad situation I've heard of instances where doctors PURPOSEFULLY misdiagnosed a disease because it would not **** up the patient's future life by preventing them from purchasing life insurance.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the system when a citizen of the U.S. could be forced to move to another country in order to receive health care. If I can't continue insurance after age 25 I'll have to move to Canada. I'm in college. I can't afford $24,000 in medicine (not services, just the meds) every year.

Or we can continue as we are I guess and just let people fall by the wayside.

As I said, I 'agree' something needs to change. I have just yet to see a realistic solution to the problem. I've hear polticians on both sides of the aisle talk about it for nearly 20 years, but I haven't seen one tiny step towards solviing it.

[Bronco Bob]

Riiiiighttttt....enjoy the koolaide fool......you've been dupped again....courtesy of the RNC.......got to hand it to them, if you can't compete, marginalize your opponent with BS......gee, that sounds familiar, right in line with the Faux Newz and the righties on the mane...congrats moron...dman

Fixed it for you.

[defenseman]

And we have a winner!


Whoever had Dman in the "Meltdown Pool" you can pick up your prizes at the front desk... :thumbs:

You haven't seen one of my meltdowns. I'd end up fraggin the website so, the supposed "meltdown" was just a minor tuneup..........dman

[TheDave]

You haven't seen one of my meltdowns. I'd end up fraggin the website so, the supposed "meltdown" was just a minor tuneup..........dman

What ever you say boss... but don't worry we will also be giving away 2nd & 3rd place prizes. I'm guessing your going to be in the running for all 3

[stugotsII]

1. He was a practicing Christian before taking office. Long before. Like having been married in a Christian church, with his first daughter baptized Christian.

2. Obama was an instructor at a top legal school teaching classes in constitutional interpretation and civil rights before taking office. Before that he ran a community organization that grew from himself and one aid and a $70K budget to himself and 13 other employees and a $400K budget in about four years. I'd say he's got plenty of preparation in planning and organizing, as well as actually understanding what this nation's foundation is all about.

Oh, and as a senator he helped write and sponsor a bill with Sen. Chuck Hagel (republican) that locked up a ton of post-cold war nukes from Russia, and as an Illinois senator he was a key player in the state raising the minimum wage.

What singularly great piece of legislation has McCain pushed through in his 26 years of opportunity that makes him ultimately qualified? Chairing a baseball and steroids comity? Proposing campaign reform that has been completely ineffectual? Flip-flopping on his own immigration bill?

As for this whole "babygate II" bull****. All it does is show how pathetic an argument preaching abstinence without real sex education actually is. The real political drama is only resultant from her mother, McCain's VP choice, being such a strong proponent of abstinence over all else.

1. He was a practicing Christian before taking office. Long before. Like having been married in a Christian church, with his first daughter baptized Christian.

A Christian that belonged to one of the most racist, anti American churches in the country. Obama only quit the church after the story broke.


2. Obama was an instructor at a top legal school teaching classes in constitutional interpretation and civil rights before taking office. Before that he ran a community organization that grew from himself and one aid and a $70K budget to himself and 13 other employees and a $400K budget in about four years. I'd say he's got plenty of preparation in planning and organizing, as well as actually understanding what this nation's foundation is all about.


So he was a teacher and organized a community group? That honestly sounds like my 3rd grade teacher…Mrs. Summers. Maybe she can be President after Obama!

Oh, and as a senator he helped write and sponsor a bill with Sen. Chuck Hagel (republican) that locked up a ton of post-cold war nukes from Russia, and as an Illinois senator he was a key player in the state raising the minimum wage.

This is not a plus in my opinion for Obama. Raising the minimum wage only forces companies to hire less people, in turn raising the unemployment rate.
He also wants to raise taxes heavily on companies which would in turn force companies to raise prices on whatever service they provide, cut salaries, layoff employees etc…

What singularly great piece of legislation has McCain pushed through in his 26 years of opportunity that makes him ultimately qualified? Chairing a baseball and steroids comity? Proposing campaign reform that has been completely ineffectual? Flip-flopping on his own immigration bill?

McCain made campaign finance reform one of his signature concerns, which eventually led to the passing of the McCain-Feingold Act in 2002.

McCain fights supports the surge in Iraq and funding for the Bush/Petraeus strategy.

He voted against the recent bill to ban waterboarding and other forms of torture. These are just off the top of my head. To answer your question….a hell of a lot more than Obama.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I agree, that 'sounds' good, and will get a lot of votes, but it sounded good when the Clintons said it as well, but we are still in the same boat we were then. Possibly worse (not due to anything they did/didn't do, but simply time and no reform).

It's easy to say that everyone will get the same care as the senators, that there insurance companies can no longer exclude pre-existing conditions, that drug companies can't 'gouge' on necessary medications. Those things 'sound' good, I am just not sure how they are implemented in reality.

I know many people think that the profits that drug companies and oil companies get are obscene and need to be 'taken away' from them. Maybe they do, I honestly don't know. However, the question I then have is that if we no longer let drug companies from charging premiums for new drugs while they have patents on them, then what incentive do they have to spend the research dollars on the 99 losers, before they find the one winning drug?

If we tell insurance companies that they can't exclude pre-existing conditions (the story Obama told about his mother), then that means everyone's premiums will go up, because the cost to the insurance companies will go up. There is no way around this.

I am all for coming up with some way for everyone to be insured, or otherwise have medical coverage. However, I am skeptical that Obama (or anyone else) really has a plan to accomplish that.

What I do know is that somehow medical costs have to come down. Some say lawsuits and such are the cause of the outrageous costs, some say it accounts for only a couple percent. Hospitals covering the cost of non-insured probably accounts for part of it.

My wife had two surgeries and spent 4 days in an LA area hospital, and the bill was over $150k, and it wasn't even emergency/trauma type surgery. No ICU time. One two hour surgery, one four hour surgery with an oncological surgeon.

However, I will admit that I have not looked at Obama's website to see if he has specific details about how he will accomplish all of this, so I will do so. Up to this point, I have only heard him speaking the poltical buzzwords that all politicians say, because they know people want to hear it.


There are many reasons the original Clinton healthcare plan didnt go through, all political. It never got off the ground because 1, the clintons waited to long to even attempt at pushing anything through (it should have been one of their first things) and 2) the republicans killed it before it even had legs. It was doomed before it even started.

Have you read the edwards plan (it was pretty much clintons plan this go around, which was different from the first.) Take a look at that and let me know what you think, because i personally don't think the obama plan will work well, though its much better than what McCain proposes, which is essentially nothing. I believe the Edwards plan is pretty comprehensive. We'd all have to chip in to pay for it, but it would go a long way to acheiving the goal. I dont remember exact details on how it controls costs, but its the plans main point. Its obviously quite detailed, but if i recall, it would eventually, in theory lead to a single payer system (or something like that)

Remember, the rest of the world HAS healthcare plans. They might not be perfect but, again, they dont have the resources americans have and its better then not having 50+ million uninsured at all or having ****ty ass insurance.

[stugotsII]

There are many reasons the original Clinton healthcare plan didnt go through, all political. It never got off the ground because 1, the clintons waited to long to even attempt at pushing anything through (it should have been one of their first things) and 2) the republicans killed it before it even had legs. It was doomed before it even started.

Have you read the edwards plan (it was pretty much clintons plan this go around, which was different from the first.) Take a look at that and let me know what you think, because i personally don't think the obama plan will work well, though its much better than what McCain proposes, which is essentially nothing. I believe the Edwards plan is pretty comprehensive. We'd all have to chip in to pay for it, but it would go a long way to acheiving the goal. I dont remember exact details on how it controls costs, but its the plans main point. Its obviously quite detailed, but if i recall, it would eventually, in theory lead to a single payer system (or something like that)

Remember, the rest of the world HAS healthcare plans. They might not be perfect but, again, they dont have the resources americans have and its better then not having 50+ million uninsured at all or having ****ty ass insurance.

Why is it a governments resposibility to provide health care?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Why is it a governments resposibility to provide health care?

It's the government's responsibility to see that there's a level playing field where access to health care is concerned.

Under the court-appointed pinhead, healthcare has been run by insurance companies who put (obscene) profits before people at every turn.

Sort of like the way oil companies have been in charge of energy policy.

[stugotsII]

It's the government's responsibility to see that there's a level playing field where access to health care is concerned.

Under the court-appointed pinhead, healthcare has been run by insurance companies who put (obscene) profits before people at every turn.

Sort of like the way oil companies have been in charge of energy policy.

You do realize that oil and gas prices are not set by oil companies, but by comodities traders on Wall Street?

Every single American has access to health care. Everyone including the 40 million that don't have coverage.

Why should I have to pay higher taxes because of the way many Americans take care of their bodies? Why can't I worry about my own health care? It's worked out pretty good thus far.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You do realize that oil and gas prices are not set by oil companies, but by comodities traders on Wall Street?

Yep.

See all of my threads about speculative oil pricing.

Are you aware of the quid pro quo relationship between Bush/Cheney, the oil companies, and their shareholders?

Every single American has access to health care. Everyone including the 40 million that don't have coverage.

Nice spin.

Are you really suggesting that all those Americans without health insurance have the ability to pay for their own health care out of their own pockets without ending up living in a refrigerator box?

Why should I have to pay higher taxes because of the way many Americans take care of their bodies?

Pay higher taxes?

If that's what you want, then vote for McCain.

If you want your taxes cut, then vote for Obama.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/06/12/GR2008061200193.gif

The numbers originated from the Tax Policy Center (http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/index.cfm) - a very highly respected independent and non-partisan group.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Why is it a governments resposibility to provide health care?

Because we live in a society where we can afford to take care of one another? Did you not learn to share when you were in kindergarten? Are you that much of a misanthrope where you could care less about your fellow man?

[stugotsII]

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/06/12/GR2008061200193.gif

The numbers originated from the Tax Policy Center (http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/index.cfm) - a very highly respected independent and non-partisan group.

You do realize that raising taxes on the rich/corperations etc...will force them to cut jobs and increase the cost of their services?

[Blueflame]

You do realize that raising taxes on the rich/corperations etc...will force them to cut jobs and increase the cost of their services?

Seems to me they're doing that anyway.

[stugotsII]

Because we live in a society where we can afford to take care of one another? Did you not learn to share when you were in kindergarten? Are you that much of a misanthrope where you could care less about your fellow man?

Why not make everything free? Shouldn't gas be free? What about food? Lets make water free. Hey I know...I don't make enough money...can I have like 100K more per year?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Seems to me they're doing that anyway.

Yep.

And if there was any substance to stugotsII's claims, then we would have seen more job losses and higher consumer prices during the Clinton years when the corporate tax rate was higher than it is under Dumbya.

Just the reverse was true.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Why not make everything free? Shouldn't gas be free? What about food? Lets make water free. Hey I know...I don't make enough money...can I have like 100K more per year?

Knock down that straw man! Ha!

[TheDave]

Why are you guys bothering to argue with someone as stupid as this...



Do some research buddy. Obama was sworn into office with a Koran.

[stugotsII]

Seems to me they're doing that anyway.

That's because you get your news from the people that want liberals running America.

Did you know that Obama's state has the 5th highest unemployment rate in the country?

That's change we can count on!

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/state_unemployment/

[stugotsII]

Yep.

And if there was any substance to stugotsII's claims, then we would have seen more job losses and higher consumer prices during the Clinton years when the corporate tax rate was higher than it is under Dumbya.

Just the reverse was true.

You can thank a Republican Congress and the internet boom, not slick willy and his cigars.

[Blueflame]

That's because you get your news from the people that want liberals running America.

Did you know that Obama's state has the 5th highest unemployment rate in the country?

That's change we can count on!

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/state_unemployment/

Know what? You have absolutely no idea where I get my news.

Oh, and btw... right there next to Illinois...at 6th-highest unemployment rate is the state that Palin "governs"....

[TheDave]

Oh, and btw... right there next to Illinois...at 6th-highest unemployment rate is the state that Palin "governs"....

LOL

[stugotsII]

Know what? You have absolutely no idea where I get my news.

Oh, and btw... right there next to Illinois...at 6th-highest unemployment rate is the state that Palin "governs"....

1 Better than Obama. And honestly, who is gonna hire all them elk, polor bears and eskimos?

[Blueflame]

1 Better than Obama. And honestly, who is gonna hire all them elk, polor bears and eskimos?

If Palin had her way, there would be no polar bears (she sued to have them removed from the Endangered Species list).

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

More irony: Bristol didn't vet her baby daddy beforehand

<!-- m -->http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... dneck.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/republicans/2667226/Father-to-be-of-Sarah-Palins-granchild-a-bad-boy-redneck.html)<!-- m -->

On his MySpace page, since removed from the Internet, Johnston describes himself as a "f****n' redneck" and reveals: "I live to play hockey. I like to go camping and hang out with the boys, do some fishing," before warning that of anyone annoys him, he will “kick ass".

Poignantly, in the one part of the site where it asks about children, he wrote, "I don't want kids."

[...]

Last year Johnston had to pay a $370 bail after state troopers caught him catching salmon out of season in Moose Lake, a popular Alaskan fishing location.

[tnedator]

It's the government's responsibility to see that there's a level playing field where access to health care is concerned.

Under the court-appointed pinhead, healthcare has been run by insurance companies who put (obscene) profits before people at every turn.


I agree we should do something to fix the system, and have said so multiple times.

But, your points above don't get us moving in that direction.

First, where does the constitution say that it is the government's responsibility to 'level' the playing field in regards to health care.

Beyond that, you insinuate taht Bush created this problem. Did you forget that in Clintons, campaign, like in Obama's, a MAJOR point that he ran on was fixing the health system. Maybe the mistake was handing the job off to the first lady. I have no idea. Maybe the Republicans in congress stopped it (although I don't think it really got anywhere near that far).

The point is that it is complete BS to say our current healthcare system disaster happened in the last 8 years.

There is enough truth to spew, why do you have to post lies? I don't get it ???

[tnedator]

More irony: Bristol didn't vet her baby daddy beforehand

<!-- m -->http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... dneck.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/republicans/2667226/Father-to-be-of-Sarah-Palins-granchild-a-bad-boy-redneck.html)<!-- m -->

On his MySpace page, since removed from the Internet, Johnston describes himself as a "*****n' redneck" and reveals: "I live to play hockey. I like to go camping and hang out with the boys, do some fishing," before warning that of anyone annoys him, he will “kick ass".

Poignantly, in the one part of the site where it asks about children, he wrote, "I don't want kids."

[...]

Last year Johnston had to pay a $370 bail after state troopers caught him catching salmon out of season in Moose Lake, a popular Alaskan fishing location.


Who gives a ****. Is a 17 year old girl running for VP now? No offense to the women on this board, but let's face it MANY teenage girls have been manipulated by guys to do things they shouldn't have. To be attacking a young gilrl for a mistake is lame, LABF.

[Beantown Bronco]

On his MySpace page, since removed from the Internet, Johnston describes himself as a "*****n' redneck" and reveals: "I live to play hockey. I like to go camping and hang out with the boys, do some fishing," before warning that of anyone annoys him, he will “kick ass".
[INDENT]
Poignantly, in the one part of the site where it asks about children, he wrote, "I don't want kids."

As much as I'm enjoying all of this, and I am.......I'd actually be worried if an 18 year old male in Alaska posted all of the opposite of this on his myspace page. What 18 year old male in Alaska doesn't like hockey, camping and hanging out with his buddies.....and I'm just shocked that he doesn't want kids at that age. Wow......what a revelation.

[DenverBrit]

As much as I'm enjoying all of this, and I am.......I'd actually be worried if an 18 year old male in Alaska posted all of the opposite of this on his myspace page. What 18 year old male in Alaska doesn't like hockey, camping and hanging out with his buddies.....and I'm just shocked that he doesn't want kids at that age. Wow......what a revelation.

No kidding.

What's next, 18 year old male says he's horny? Oh, the humanity. Ha!

[Drek]

I agree, that 'sounds' good, and will get a lot of votes, but it sounded good when the Clintons said it as well, but we are still in the same boat we were then. Possibly worse (not due to anything they did/didn't do, but simply time and no reform).

It's easy to say that everyone will get the same care as the senators, that there insurance companies can no longer exclude pre-existing conditions, that drug companies can't 'gouge' on necessary medications. Those things 'sound' good, I am just not sure how they are implemented in reality.
If you apply this kind of logic whats the point of ever even voting? McCain says he'll keep us safe, but Bush said the same thing and 9/11 + Katrina still happened. I'm not saying its his fault, but he said one thing and another happened.

**** happens, but going into the election you need to pick the candidate that you think has the best overall plan and hope enough of it gets through to make it worthwhile.

Also, unlike Clinton (or what McCain will have) Obama will step into a democratically controlled congress. He'll be able to put through the legislation he wants, hell, it might even be filibuster proof by the time he's in office.

I know many people think that the profits that drug companies and oil companies get are obscene and need to be 'taken away' from them. Maybe they do, I honestly don't know. However, the question I then have is that if we no longer let drug companies from charging premiums for new drugs while they have patents on them, then what incentive do they have to spend the research dollars on the 99 losers, before they find the one winning drug?
This is the excuse often thrown out against any and all regulation. Its an extremist theory with no real merit. Right now pharmaceuticals and energy are the two biggest money industries in the world, even more dominant in America. They can have their bit of the pie cut down to help the rest of the pie grow and still make obscene profits. If they don't keep pushing R&D some competitor will and they'll soon be out of a job.

Another thing that Obama's plan will do is increase the number of covered patients, expanding the market for doctors and pharmaceuticals. You can charge 20% less for something if you have 20% more customers pretty easily.

If we tell insurance companies that they can't exclude pre-existing conditions (the story Obama told about his mother), then that means everyone's premiums will go up, because the cost to the insurance companies will go up. There is no way around this.He isn't for cut and dry no possible exclusions. His concept is something more akin to driver's insurance. Example, my younger brother got five speeding tickets in six months when he first started college. Two where criminal speeding, so close together he hadn't even gotten his license pulled. But in Maine he needs insurance to register a vehicle. So what's the solution? A state mandated insurance program that might be expensive but its cheaper than not having insurance at all and getting in a wreck.

There would have to be a one time bullet taken to get everyone enrolled in the program, from then on everyone will be in the system and insurance companies can reach settlements between themselves when a person has a disease or illness diagnosed on one company's plan and they then move to another company. Its entirely doable, as long as we take that one initial hit to get everyone enrolled.

1. He was a practicing Christian before taking office. Long before. Like having been married in a Christian church, with his first daughter baptized Christian.

A Christian that belonged to one of the most racist, anti American churches in the country. Obama only quit the church after the story broke.

You said he was a Muslim. Why you changing your story?

2. Obama was an instructor at a top legal school teaching classes in constitutional interpretation and civil rights before taking office. Before that he ran a community organization that grew from himself and one aid and a $70K budget to himself and 13 other employees and a $400K budget in about four years. I'd say he's got plenty of preparation in planning and organizing, as well as actually understanding what this nation's foundation is all about.


So he was a teacher and organized a community group? That honestly sounds like my 3rd grade teacher…Mrs. Summers. Maybe she can be President after Obama!
Did Mrs. Summers teach at an elite post-graduate program? While in her early 20's did she grow a community group nearly 5 fold in just a few years? If so then yes, she probably could, if he spent a little time in her state legislature and a few years in Washington.

Oh, and as a senator he helped write and sponsor a bill with Sen. Chuck Hagel (republican) that locked up a ton of post-cold war nukes from Russia, and as an Illinois senator he was a key player in the state raising the minimum wage.

This is not a plus in my opinion for Obama. Raising the minimum wage only forces companies to hire less people, in turn raising the unemployment rate.
He also wants to raise taxes heavily on companies which would in turn force companies to raise prices on whatever service they provide, cut salaries, layoff employees etc…
No, he's going to raise taxes on companies that would be off-set by capital reduced capital gains limits on small and medium sized companies, and larger incentives for insuring workers. Also, any large company will be able to make back their lost tax dollars by engaging in bringing jobs back to America and going green, either by developing green technologies or by simply reducing energy usage on their own. DuPont reduced energy usage by over 25% in 3 years or so, while increasing production. His tax plan will spur that same kind of conservative, efficient approach throughout our economy.

What singularly great piece of legislation has McCain pushed through in his 26 years of opportunity that makes him ultimately qualified? Chairing a baseball and steroids comity? Proposing campaign reform that has been completely ineffectual? Flip-flopping on his own immigration bill?

McCain made campaign finance reform one of his signature concerns, which eventually led to the passing of the McCain-Feingold Act in 2002.

McCain fights supports the surge in Iraq and funding for the Bush/Petraeus strategy.

He voted against the recent bill to ban waterboarding and other forms of torture. These are just off the top of my head. To answer your question….a hell of a lot more than Obama.
McCain-Feingold is a worthless bit of legislation that isn't even a single drop in the bucket of what needs to be done. It was grossly ineffectual and riddled with loopholes that his own party has exploited vigorously. Not any good legislation there.

You mean the strategy that has us pouring billions a month into a nation that has a $79B surplus sitting in New York banks? The same strategy that has caused us to leave Afghanistan largely to its own devices despite that being where Al Qaeda actually planed the 9/11 attacks and resides today?

Yes, he does a great job supporting Bush's bait and switch war. How nice of him.

And is he for or against torture this week? He used to be against it, then he was for it, then against it again. Hopefully he comes to a concrete decision soon.

Keep trying but until you actually read up on the issues this is about as easy as schooling a midget at basketball.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The Palin teen pregnancy: a campaign issue?

The world of punditry was today busily cogitating the news that Bristol Palin, the 17-year-old daughter of McCain's newly named VP Sarah Palin, is five months pregnant and plans to keep the baby. The key question, as the revelation begins to bed in, is how will it affect the race? And, as a clearly personal matter, should it at all?

I've scoured the comment pages and the blogosphere for answers, and present to you the fruits of my labour. But before I do, I'm going to briefly weigh in (just because I'm that way inclined...)

Good for Bristol, I say. Her decision to marry the father and keep the baby is a brave and noble one, and should be applauded. But as Kevin Drum notes on the Washington Monthly blog Political Animal (see below), that is not a decision that her mother (or McCain) would afford your teenage daughter if she takes office (I speak to our American readers here). Nor would she allow your son or daughter the opportunity to learn about safe sex, being a staunch advocate of abstinence only sex education. In fact, even if your teenage daughter was raped, she would force her to keep the baby - prosecuting her if she refused. As a woman, this is a position I find so personally abhorrent that every single cell of my being spasms in one giant collective retch - not because I like abortion (who does?) but because women should never be treated like cattle, to be shackled in a pen and forced to reproduce. In that context, the fact that she reportedly allowed her own teenage daughter to decide the fate of her unborn baby is worthy of discussion.

Bristol's personal life is just that, and her name should be kept out of that discussion as far as possible. But Sarah Palin's views are not - in fact they are as invasive into your personal, and indeed biological, life as it is possible to be.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/uselections/2008/09/the-palin-teen.html

[Sassy]

LOL she has a 17 year old Daughter knocked up now ......I hope she does a better job as VP then she did raising her kids .... My 16 year old Daughter is still a virgin

Yeah...you can keep track of a 17 year old? That has nothing to do with how she'd do her job....that's a little unrealistic.

...you know that for a fact?

[watermock]

should of just diced up and Kirbied the baby and kept it a secret, right?

No fuss, no muss.

[Sassy]

Challenge ?looks like more of a failed policy .just like say no

You must keep an eye on your daughter 24/7 and never let her out of the house...or have a PI on her...that's just ridiculous. Sometimes parents can preach all they want and try to install values/morals and stuff happens. You obviously don't remember being a teenager. How can you keep an eye on a teenager 24/7?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yeah...you can keep track of a 17 year old? That has nothing to do with how she'd do her job....that's a little unrealistic.


Really?

How many other candidates have daughters who are unmarried and pregnant at age 17 (or 16?)

Family values, indeed. :oyvey:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yeah...you can keep track of a 17 year old? That has nothing to do with how she'd do her job....that's a little unrealistic.


Sounds like an abdication of that "personal responsibility" thing the righties are always preaching about.

[Rank&File]

Really?

How many other candidates have daughters who are unmarried and pregnant at age 17 (or 16?)

Family values, indeed. :oyvey:

How many of their daughters have had sex too young like ALOT of teenagers, and were "lucky" enough to not get pregnant? You can do your very best as a parent..Do all the right things, say all the right things....Communicate like you are supposed to, and things like this will still happen. Because this happened, it doesn't mean they don't have family values imo.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

How many of their daughters have had sex too young like ALOT of teenagers, and were "lucky" enough to not get pregnant? You can do your very best as a parent..Do all the right things, say all the right things....Communicate like you are supposed to, and things like this will still happen. Because this happened, it doesn't mean they don't have family values imo.

But what did all this say about the Palin family's commitment to the holy cause of promoting abstinence if they couldn't even succeed with their own daughter?

[stugotsII]

Really?

How many other candidates have daughters who are unmarried and pregnant at age 17 (or 16?)

Family values, indeed. :oyvey:

Seeing as how your Man God has already squashed this issue.....it's time to move on.

PS. Your Man Gods mommy had him while she was 18.

[TDmvp]

But what did all this say about the Palin family's commitment to the holy cause of promoting abstinence if they couldn't even succeed with their own daughter?

I wish someone would have promoted abstinence to you and Gaff's parents ...
now that would have been a holy cause ...

:poke: :poke:



"edit"
I'm just Fing with you ... don't get your liberal Birkenstocks in a bunch ....

[stugotsII]

But what did all this say about the Palin family's commitment to the holy cause of promoting abstinence if they couldn't even succeed with their own daughter?

It means her young daughter made a miskate.

Kids do it all the time. It's odd that she isn't getting any credit for her son who is going to Iraq and fighting for YOU.

Maybe she only gets credit for the mistakes her kids make?

Anyway, have fun watching Man Gods poll numbers go down.

[Rohirrim]

But what did all this say about the Palin family's commitment to the holy cause of promoting abstinence if they couldn't even succeed with their own daughter?

It's not so much that they believe in the failed policy of abstinence so much as they want to force their belief in abstinence, and a ban of all contraception (or even talk of contraception) in public schools across America. It's more of the same old Bush anti-science, celebrate ignorance agenda.

[Rohirrim]

It means her young daughter made a miskate.

Kids do it all the time. It's odd that she isn't getting any credit for her son who is going to Iraq and fighting for YOU.

Maybe she only gets credit for the mistakes her kids make?

Anyway, have fun watching Man Gods poll numbers go down.

I guess you're the only one.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

The graph is particularly interesting:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

[Rank&File]

But what did all this say about the Palin family's commitment to the holy cause of promoting abstinence if they couldn't even succeed with their own daughter?

I don't know what it says about their commitment. I don't know them, but I would guess that they are still very committed to the cause. I don't think that because of a perceived "failure" should they throw up their hands and let their other kids run wild. As a parent, I dread the days when my daughter is old enough for this stuff. I have and will continue to talk to her about personal responsibility, and abstinence, but when the rubber meets the road (maybe a bad choice of words haha) she is still going to make up her own mind. Hopefully, she will make the right choice.

[stugotsII]

I guess you're the only one.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

The graph is particularly interesting:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Yes, because polls are such an accurate measure of what is happening. Just wait until Friday or Saturday.

[BroncoInferno]

Yes, because polls are such an accurate measure of what is happening. Just wait until Friday or Saturday.

Oh, the polls "aren't an accurate measure of what is happening," but they will be on Friday or Saturday. Gotch Hilarious!

[Rohirrim]

Yes, because polls are such an accurate measure of what is happening. Just wait until Friday or Saturday.

So first you say the polls are not worth watching, then you say watch the polls this weekend? ???

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It's not so much that they believe in the failed policy of abstinence so much as they want to force their belief in abstinence, and a ban of all contraception (or even talk of contraception) in public schools across America. It's more of the same old Bush anti-science, celebrate ignorance agenda.

That's the scary part!

I can see how this spells love at first sight for the religious right, but I can't imagine how the non-evangelical conservatives would be willing to go along for the ride.

[W*GS]

LABF isn't even a parent, so he's talking from complete ignorance. Not that being ignorant of subject hasn't stopped him before...

[Rank&File]

It's not so much that they believe in the failed policy of abstinence so much as they want to force their belief in abstinence, and a ban of all contraception (or even talk of contraception) in public schools across America. It's more of the same old Bush anti-science, celebrate ignorance agenda.

I agree. I think abstinence should be talked about, but I also know that sex is going to happen. Contraception should be a part of every abstinence discussion imo. Like I said before, you as a parent can do EVERYTHING right, and a child can still go too far. Hell, I can remember getting hot and heavy in the back of the car...My mom and dad's "talks" certainly weren't in the forefront of my mind! lol

[stugotsII]

So first you say the polls are not worth watching, then you say watch the polls this weekend? ???

Dude, you act as though Obama has a strong, 20 point lead on McCain.

The only poll that really matters is the one in November. When America finally realizes what Obama stands for....he's got real problems.

[stugotsII]

LABF isn't even a parent, so he's talking from complete ignorance. Not that being ignorant of subject hasn't stopped him before...

Yeah, but he posts cartoons and uses smiley face icons....soooo........

He must know SOMETHING....right?

[stugotsII]

That's the sacry part!

I can see how this spells love at first sight for the religious right, but I can't imagine how the non-evangelical conservatives would be willing to go along for the ride.

I hate when things are "sacry."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I agree. I think abstinence should be talked about, but I also know that sex is going to happen. Contraception should be a part of every abstinence discussion imo. Like I said before, you as a parent can do EVERYTHING right, and a child can still go too far. Hell, I can remember getting hot and heavy in the back of the car...My mom and dad's "talks" certainly weren't in the forefront of my mind! lol

Then can you see yourself getting behind a woman who wants to force an "abstinence only" agenda on you? (A woman who is a faint heartbeat away from the presidency?)

[Rank&File]

Then can you see yourself getting behind a woman who wants to force an "abstinence only" agenda on you? (A woman who is a faint heartbeat away from the presidency?)

Nah, I'm not getting behind her. Not necessarily for that reason, although I don't agree w/her on that. I'm sorry, I just can't see her advising the president on the issues of our time. The Pakistan issue could blow up and the same time Russia and Iran could go off. Like him or not, Cheney was on the phone to the president on the morning of 9/11(I know what you think about that) but indulge me.. I can't see her being the person advising the president in a time of crisis.

Some will say the same about the nominee for prez on the other side too. I don't know that I can disagree with that argument either.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Nah, I'm not getting behind her. Not necessarily for that reason, although I don't agree w/her on that. I'm sorry, I just can't see her advising the president on the issues of our time. The Pakistan issue could blow up and the same time Russia and Iran could go off. Like him or not, Cheney was on the phone to the president on the morning of 9/11(I know what you think about that) but indulge me.. I can't see her being the person advising the president in a time of crisis.

Some will say the same about the nominee for prez on the other side too. I don't know that I can disagree with that argument either.

Now THERE is post by a man who has thought this thing through.

:thumbsup:

[tnedator]

But what did all this say about the Palin family's commitment to the holy cause of promoting abstinence if they couldn't even succeed with their own daughter?

What does it say about an olympic athlete that comes in fourth, but goes back to training the very next week to prepare for the next olypics?

What does it say about Clinton that his brother was doing blow and selling it while Clinton was Governor of Arkansas? Does this indicate that Clinton was in favor of the illegal use and sale of cocaine?

Having strong convictions and having a family member make a mistake, or ignore your beliefs, does not mean you stop trying. It doesn't mean that the you stop trying. It doesn't even mean you failed. Hopefully, it means you keep your faith and work even harder.

[Beantown Bronco]

Bristol Palin splits with ‘white trash’ Levi Johnston
By Inside Track
Thursday, March 12, 2009 - Updated 1h ago


And from the They Said It Wouldn’t Last File: Bristol Palin, the 18-year-old daughter of former GOP veep washout Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, has broken off her engagement to Levi Johnston, the father of her 2 month-old son.

Isn’t this the same Bristol Palin who told Fox News Channel’s Greta Van Susteren last month that her fiancee was a hands-on dad to their son, Tripp, and they hoped to marry after finishing their education?

Levi’s sis Mercede Johnston told Star maggie that the couple actually split up more than a month ago. Bristol doesn’t attend school and rarely lets Levi see the baby.

“Bristol’s just crazy. That’s the nicest way I can put it,” said Mercede. “Levi tries to visit Tripp every single day, but Bristol makes it nearly impossible for him. She tells him he can’t take the baby to our house because she doesn’t want him around ’white trash,’ ” she said. “She treats him so badly.”

[DenverBrit]

Bristol Palin splits with ‘white trash’ Levi Johnston
By Inside Track
Thursday, March 12, 2009 - Updated 1h ago


And from the They Said It Wouldn’t Last File: Bristol Palin, the 18-year-old daughter of former GOP veep washout Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, has broken off her engagement to Levi Johnston, the father of her 2 month-old son.

Isn’t this the same Bristol Palin who told Fox News Channel’s Greta Van Susteren last month that her fiancee was a hands-on dad to their son, Tripp, and they hoped to marry after finishing their education?

Levi’s sis Mercede Johnston told Star maggie that the couple actually split up more than a month ago. Bristol doesn’t attend school and rarely lets Levi see the baby.

“Bristol’s just crazy. That’s the nicest way I can put it,” said Mercede. “Levi tries to visit Tripp every single day, but Bristol makes it nearly impossible for him. She tells him he can’t take the baby to our house because she doesn’t want him around ’white trash,’ ” she said. “She treats him so badly.”

The Hatfields and the McCoys duke it out.
What great soap these clowns would have made had they been elected.

[Odysseus]

Palin has canceled her last couple of requests for her presence. I am pretty happy about that.

[frerottenextelway]

http://www.examiner.com/x-16327-Clark-County-Liberal-Examiner~y2009m9d3-Levi-Johnston-paints-a-different-picture-of-Sarah-Palin

"Sarah kept mentioning this plan. She was nagging — she wouldn't give it up. She would say, 'So, are you gonna let me adopt him?' We both kept telling her we were definitely not going to let her adopt the baby. I think Sarah wanted to make Bristol look good, and she didn't want people to know that her 17-year-old daughter was going to have a kid," - Levi Johnston

Of course, this is about Tripp, not Trig... ... but hmmm, she seems to be capable of this kind of thing.

Lots of other great stuff from that article too.