Personal incomes in U.S. drop by largest amount in three years

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Isn't Bushonomics great? (part II) :oyvey:

By MARTIN CRUTSINGER, AP Economics Writer 44 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Personal incomes plunged in July while consumer spending slowed significantly as the impact of billions of dollars in government rebate checks began to wane.

The Commerce Department reported Friday that personal incomes fell by 0.7 percent in July, the biggest drop in nearly three years and a far larger decline than the 0.1 percent decrease analysts expected.

Consumer spending edged up a modest 0.2 percent, in line with expectations, but far below June's 0.6 percent rise. When the impact of rising prices was factored in, spending actually dropped by 0.4 percent in July, the weakest showing for inflation-adjusted spending in more than four years.

The July performance for incomes and spending reinforced worries that the economy, which posted better-than-expected growth in the spring because of the rebate checks, could stumble in coming months as their impact fades.

Some economists worry that overall economic growth, which rose at a 3.3 percent annual rate from April-June, could come in at less than half that pace in the current quarter, and could actually dip into negative territory in the final three months of this year and the first quarter of 2009.

Back-to-back declines in the gross domestic product, which measures the value of all goods and services produced within the U.S. and is the best barometer of the country's economic health, would meet one rule of thumb for a recession.

A gauge of inflation closely watched by the Federal Reserve remained elevated in July, rising by 0.6 percent. Over the past 12 months, this inflation gauge tied to consumer spending was up 4.5 percent, the biggest year-over-year increase in more than 17 years.

The surge reflected the big increases that have occurred this year in food and energy costs. Excluding food and energy, inflation by this measure was up 0.3 percent in July, and 2.4 percent over the past 12 months, still above the Fed's comfort zone. The central bank is caught in a bind between a sluggish economy and rising inflation pressures.

The 0.7 percent drop in personal incomes followed a 0.1 percent rise in June and a 1.8 percent surge in May. After-tax incomes dropped by an even bigger 1.1 percent in July, following a 1.9 percent decline in June and a 5.7 percent surge in May. All the income figures were heavily influenced by the rebate checks.

Democrats, including presidential nominee Barack Obama, are calling for the government to pass a second stimulus package to guard against the economy slumping into a deep recession.

But President Bush, concerned about the impact the stimulus payments will have on the budget deficit, has resisted those calls, insisting that the rebate payments will continue to support the economy in coming months. The administration is already forecasting that the federal budget deficit for the budget year that begins on Oct. 1 will soar to an all-time high in dollar terms of $482 billion.

The report on consumer spending also showed that personal savings totaled 1.2 percent of after-tax incomes in July, down from a rate of 2.5 percent in June.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080829/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/economy

[spdirty]

mine went up, so its more of the same for me.

[Garcia Bronco]

Mine keeps going up as well.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The usual "I got mine - f@ck everybody else" from the "values" party - right on cue.

[spdirty]

The usual "I got mine - f@ck everybody else" from the "values" party - right on cue.

self reliance is a bltch when you arent.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

self reliance is a bltch when you arent.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

That explains these figures - all those people are just lazy and don't want to work.

But why stop there?

You could even claim, with your buddy Meck, that they're all nothing but a bunch of bums who sit around smoking cigarettes and drinking beer all day.

:~ohyah!:

[Garcia Bronco]

It not that LABF. If you want more salary in this world, what are you doing to get it? I didn't get to where I am being being static. I am dynamic and keep looking for the opportunities to make more money, and I succeed. It's the American Dream. You don't have to keep working in the music store, you can branch out and start your own, but above all you have to have a plan.

[Hotrod]

It not that LABF. If you want more salary in this world, what are you doing to get it? I didn't get to where I am being being static. I am dynamic and keep looking for the opportunities to make more money, and I succeed. It's the American Dream. You don't have to keep working in the music store, you can branch out and start your own, but above all you have to have a plan.

They dont get that at all. They feel its not the "right to pursue happiness" but "the guarantee of happiness" there is a world of difference.

Kind of a "your going to suceed if you like it or not"

[TailgateNut]

They dont get that at all. They feel its not the "right to pursue happiness" but "the guarantee of happiness" there is a world of difference.

Kind of a "your going to suceed if you like it or not"


Oh BS, it's about opportunity for all, not just the priviledged.

[Rohirrim]

But President Bush, concerned about the impact the stimulus payments will have on the budget deficit, has resisted those calls, insisting that the rebate payments will continue to support the economy in coming months.

LOL This guy has to be the biggest idiot I have ever heard of. Suddenly, he cares about the budget deficit? :rofl:

[Hotrod]

Oh BS, it's about opportunity for all, not just the priviledged.

How was I priviledged. neither of my parents went to college nor did they have the $ to send me. I had to work my way thru starting with military service. There was no car or family job awaiting me. I've come from little and thru hard work and the "pursuit of happiness" I've done very well for myself.

[Garcia Bronco]

Oh BS, it's about opportunity for all, not just the priviledged.

Everybody has generally the same opportunity.

[Garcia Bronco]

How was I priviledged. neither of my parents went to college nor did they have the $ to send me. I had to work my way thru starting with military service. There was no car or family job awaiting me. I've come from little and thru hard work and the "pursuit of happiness" I've done very well for myself.

They don't get that either. They think everyone besides themselves had a silver spoon in their mouths.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Everybody has generally the same opportunity.

I remember arguing this with you a number of months ago. THIS is BS. I understand you didn't come from a privledged upbringing and managed to succeed. And thats fantastic, but there are MILLIONS who never get that opportunity or that stroke of luck. We live in a goddamn community and we should support everyone around us to create as equal a society as we can. No one is saying you cant have whats yours, but I know the first thing I was taught in kindergarten was to SHARE. Is society THAT cynical? Arent you the guy who talked about going to NO after Katrina to help? Why not create a culture of equality? Europe seems to get this and functions quite well without the wealth our country has...i dont know why we dont.

Don't you think its wrong that the top 30,000 incomes is more than the next 150 million combined?

[NaptownChief]

But President Bush, concerned about the impact the stimulus payments will have on the budget deficit, has resisted those calls, insisting that the rebate payments will continue to support the economy in coming months.

LOL This guy has to be the biggest idiot I have ever heard of. Suddenly, he cares about the budget deficit? :rofl:



A great big dumba$$ and yet able to roll up the Dems for 8 years in the White House. What does that say about the Dems?

[TailgateNut]

How was I priviledged. neither of my parents went to college nor did they have the $ to send me. I had to work my way thru starting with military service. There was no car or family job awaiting me. I've come from little and thru hard work and the "pursuit of happiness" I've done very well for myself.



It sounds as if we've "walked the same path" to where we are now. I've been on my own with no hand-outs since I was 16. Attended night classes while in the military (8yrs) and finished my degree after I got out. Decided to go into a profession which had absolutely nothing to do with my degree, and worked my way up the ranks, passing all those who were standing idle. The only damage done was a divorce back in the early 90s. But hey, starting over was ok, and all is well.

All that aside, I did have a family who supported me while I was in school (grade-HS) which many children do not have. That's one of the basics we MUST guarantee. We had health-care, another basic we MUST guarantee.

...and Garcia yammering must also realize that the cost to income ratio of education, cost of living and health care has been multiplied because greed and deregulation.

So, IMO, things are just not the same as it was for us, as we joined the "real world".

[NaptownChief]

I remember arguing this with you a number of months ago. THIS is BS. I understand you didn't come from a privledged upbringing and managed to succeed. And thats fantastic, but there are MILLIONS who never get that opportunity or that stroke of luck. We live in a goddamn community and we should support everyone around us to create as equal a society as we can. No one is saying you cant have whats yours, but I know the first thing I was taught in kindergarten was to SHARE. Is society THAT cynical? Arent you the guy who talked about going to NO after Katrina to help? Why not create a culture of equality? Europe seems to get this and functions quite well without the wealth our country has...i dont know why we dont.

Don't you think its wrong that the top 30,000 incomes is more than the next 150 million combined?



Obama didn't come from squat yet was able to get an Ivy League education and make something of himself in this "horrible system". Why is that? Was he just really lucky or did he actually put forth some effort and take self responsibility?

[Garcia Bronco]

I remember arguing this with you a number of months ago. THIS is BS. I understand you didn't come from a privledged upbringing and managed to succeed. And thats fantastic, but there are MILLIONS who never get that opportunity or that stroke of luck. We live in a goddamn community and we should support everyone around us to create as equal a society as we can. No one is saying you cant have whats yours, but I know the first thing I was taught in kindergarten was to SHARE. Is society THAT cynical? Arent you the guy who talked about going to NO after Katrina to help? Why not create a culture of equality? Europe seems to get this and functions quite well without the wealth our country has...i dont know why we dont.

Don't you think its wrong that the top 30,000 incomes is more than the next 150 million combined?

It wasn't and isn't luck. I share plenty also. I have been a community fundraiser, I do misson work, and I am thinking about doing big brother and big sisters. I have given tours through hospices and boys and girls clubs. Looks like I qualified to be President after I turn 35. :)

Look, everybody has generally the same opportunities. Some more and some less, but we all have access to a free education. We all have access to government loans for college. Education is key because the only thing that truly seperates us in a world of darkness in knowledge. I took advantage of my opportunity to an education.

I don't think it's wrong. People get what they can get and if you think you are worth more....what are you doing to get it?

[Hotrod]

It sounds as if we've "walked the same path" to where we are now. I've been on my own with no hand-outs since I was 16. Attended night classes while in the military (8yrs) and finished my degree after I got out. Decided to go into a profession which had absolutely nothing to do with my degree, and worked my way up the ranks, passing all those who were standing idle. The only damage done was a divorce back in the early 90s. But hey, starting over was ok, and all is well.

All that aside, I did have a family who supported me while I was in school (grade-HS) which many children do not have. That's one of the basics we MUST guarantee. We had health-care, another basic we MUST guarantee.

...and Garcia yammering must also realize that the cost to income ratio of education, cost of living and health care has been multiplied because greed and deregulation.

So, IMO, things are just not the same as it was for us, as we joined the "real world".

The bold part I agree with 100% and its one of my top concerns. The problem is there is simply no way to keep dead beat fathers (and mothers) from; well being dead beats. How do we solve the single parent homes? Do we need to even solve that issue or do the single parents need to step it up.

Personally IMHO I think much of Americas problems start at home in this day and age.

[Garcia Bronco]

Obama didn't come from squat yet was able to get an Ivy League education and make something of himself in this "horrible system". Why is that? Was he just really lucky or did he actually put forth some effort and take self responsibility?

Excellent point. I hope that when Obama wins. I think he will, that these people out there claiming constant discrimination realize they no longer have a leg to stand on.

[Garcia Bronco]

TGN, we have kids in this country that can't open and close a book, and I don't care how old the text book is...they can't pass a test on it regardless of it's age. It's no secret that access to education isn't the problem but the willingness to learn and take responsibility for ones education is lacking.

The cost of health care doesn't generally stop a kid from going to school and studying for it's math test the next day.

[Rohirrim]

A great big dumba$$ and yet able to roll up the Dems for 8 years in the White House. What does that say about the Dems?

What does it say about Diebold? ;D

[BABronco]

Don't you think its wrong that the top 30,000 incomes is more than the next 150 million combined?

No. How is making more money than the next guy bad? This is what I don't get about that philosophy. Why should someone who makes 250,000 a year get more money taken from them (percent wise) than someone who makes 100,000 a year? Same goes for someone making 500,000,000 a year. Why should people be taxed higher just because they made something of themselves?

I think that its terrible that people get stuck where they are. The best thing they could do is go to college to change that. I just started attending college (first generation to go in my family) so I know that there are about 2 billion dollars a year that is given away. I read somewhere that only 82% of that was claimed last year. If they don't want to go to college they could join the army. I am the child of a 16yr old highschool drop out and a 18yr old highschool grad. My dad attempted to make it on his own; he quickly realized that it was not going to work. By the time I was four he joined the army. He spent 2 years over in Korea. He made sure he did something in there that would transfer over to civilian life. He now is as high as he can get in his field without an actual degree so he just started taking college courses at the age of 38.

[W*GS]

Why not a society of liberty and freedom, instead of ill-defined "equality"?

[Rohirrim]

Why not a society of liberty and freedom, instead of ill-defined "equality"?

Great idea. Unfortunately, human beings are flawed creatures. That's why America's founders separated the power of government into three parts, dividing the power. It's also why Jefferson advocated an estate tax to forestall the creation of an "aristocracy." If there were no anti-trust laws how many oil companies would there be? Or telecommunications? Or software? When we can do away with the flaws of mankind, we can do away with governments and laws.

[TailgateNut]

No. How is making more money than the next guy bad? This is what I don't get about that philosophy. Why should someone who makes 250,000 a year get more money taken from them (percent wise) than someone who makes 100,000 a year? Same goes for someone making 500,000,000 a year. Why should people be taxed higher just because they made something of themselves?

I think that its terrible that people get stuck where they are. The best thing they could do is go to college to change that. I just started attending college (first generation to go in my family) so I know that there are about 2 billion dollars a year that is given away. I read somewhere that only 82% of that was claimed last year. If they don't want to go to college they could join the army. I am the child of a 16yr old highschool drop out and a 18yr old highschool grad. My dad attempted to make it on his own; he quickly realized that it was not going to work. By the time I was four he joined the army. He spent 2 years over in Korea. He made sure he did something in there that would transfer over to civilian life. He now is as high as he can get in his field without an actual degree so he just started taking college courses at the age of 38.


Because aside from the isolated case most of the people who do make the incomes you throw out for discussion are doing so on the backs of hard working middle class employees.
Just MO.

I'm sort of in that position, although I'm not in the 1/4million a year clubROFL! I wouldn't be able to make the money I do without my employees. It's a matter of distribution of a percentage of what I consider "un-earned wealth".

I guess I should be a repuke! Naw, I wouldn't be able to sleep at all!

[W*GS]

Great idea. Unfortunately, human beings are flawed creatures.

Indeed. And those flawed creatures (i.e., those who believe in forced "fairness", "sharing" and "equality") are happily ensconced in government, where they can indulge their evil whims.

How do you propose we fix a flawed government? Making it bigger, stronger, and more extensive?

[SonOfLe-loLang]

No. How is making more money than the next guy bad? This is what I don't get about that philosophy. Why should someone who makes 250,000 a year get more money taken from them (percent wise) than someone who makes 100,000 a year? Same goes for someone making 500,000,000 a year. Why should people be taxed higher just because they made something of themselves?

I think that its terrible that people get stuck where they are. The best thing they could do is go to college to change that. I just started attending college (first generation to go in my family) so I know that there are about 2 billion dollars a year that is given away. I read somewhere that only 82% of that was claimed last year. If they don't want to go to college they could join the army. I am the child of a 16yr old highschool drop out and a 18yr old highschool grad. My dad attempted to make it on his own; he quickly realized that it was not going to work. By the time I was four he joined the army. He spent 2 years over in Korea. He made sure he did something in there that would transfer over to civilian life. He now is as high as he can get in his field without an actual degree so he just started taking college courses at the age of 38.

There is not enough space here to explain why economic disparity is bad for the country and the economy, but i can give you a great piece of literature that explains it well better than I can: Conscience of a Liberal by Paul Krugman (he's one of the most respected economists in the world today). Check it out, its a good and interesting read.

But on a personal note, I believe everyone serves their purpose in the working force. We are all cogs (granted some bigger than others) that help make businesses successful and help the country to become prosperous. Now I know there are people that work 20 hours a day just to make enough money to feed their family. I know college educated people who work 14-15 hours a day, for a decent salary, but no where even close to what they feel is justified. Now are you telling me that lots of these bigwigs work millions of times harder than the people under them who make considerably less? Could these companies even make ANY money without all the little cogs? The simple answer is no, they cannot. These top 30,000 rely on a middle class work force and middle class spending to become rich. As far as I know, none of them have a money tree in their backyards. Though i identify with the socialist movement, I'm not suggesting we all should make the same salary, but I do think its an injustice that the two worlds are SOOOOO far apart. And this top one percent is just rewarded more money with the bush tax cuts. It's hoarded. It doesn't trickle down. And the markets don't just correct themselves till they hit extremes.

These people are so rich that extra taxes to support social programs or to lower middle class tax rates won't change their lifestyle. (perhaps they can't buy that 8th house or 3rd yacht.) but we live in a society that really should take care of one another. Because when 90 percent of the nation is in financial trouble, it's not good for the nation. It's not good for the economy or the spirit.

As said, im not begrudging anyone a great living. But i feel the Have's in this country should give a lot more back to the community that gave them the opportunity to be a have. Because at the end of the day, its not really going to effect them and i believe it's their duty to provide more to the community than they do. (and remember, Bush has taken the neocon agenda and made it even more absurd than ronald reagan probably ever imagined. It's time for a new direction...a direction thats more fitting of Roosevelt's new deal and johnson's Great society.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Indeed. And those flawed creatures (i.e., those who believe in forced "fairness", "sharing" and "equality") are happily ensconced in government, where they can indulge their evil whims.

How do you propose we fix a flawed government? Making it bigger, stronger, and more extensive?

And how do you propose to fix the problem? Dissolve government until complete anarchy creates a darwinistic society? Sounds like youre ready for armageddon.

Government works. it will always have its flaws, since we are human, but in many societies people are generally happy with their government, even governments that believe in socialistic ideas (just see the quality of living charts)

[W*GS]

Leftism is the surest route to destruction.

[W*GS]

And how do you propose to fix the problem? Dissolve government until complete anarchy creates a darwinistic society?

Restrict government to its few and Constitutional roles. Making it intrude on every single aspect of our lives is a concept that was put to death last century at the cost of 100 million corpses. Let's learn from their suffering, instead of repeating the same mistake and expecting a different result.

Government is a necessary evil - but it's evil nonetheless.

[Rohirrim]

Indeed. And those flawed creatures (i.e., those who believe in forced "fairness", "sharing" and "equality") are happily ensconced in government, where they can indulge their evil whims.

How do you propose we fix a flawed government? Making it bigger, stronger, and more extensive?

The same way you take care of an orchard, constant pruning. There is no such thing as a government that operates like the proverbial deists' clock where you start it and it runs perfectly forever. I think the founders had a good idea. The people must stay involved and constantly vigilant. We have the tools in the Constitution necessary to do the job. Too bad Pelosi is too gutless to use them.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Restrict government to its few and Constitutional roles. Making it intrude on every single aspect of our lives is a concept that was put to death last century at the cost of 100 million corpses. Let's learn from their suffering, instead of repeating the same mistake and expecting a different result.

Government is a necessary evil - but it's evil nonetheless.

You know as well as I do it can't work like that unless you live in a small community. The world is entirely too big. Without the rules and regulations posed by government, a few will take advantage of millions (not far from whats happening now.) it would be complete chaos BECAUSE, as you love to claim, human's are flawed. But they are also sheep and usually fall in line when given rules and roadblocks.

As far as leftism being the destruction of society? Any governmental extreme would do that. But i obviously strongly believe it should lean left. A far lean. Tell Roosevelt and actually most of the successful countries in the EU that leftist government is evil.

[W*GS]

The same way you take care of an orchard, contant pruning. There is no such thing as a government that operates like the proverbial deists' clock where you start it and it runs perfectly forever. I think the founders had a good idea. The people must stay involved and constantly vigilant. We have the tools in the Constitution necessary to do the job. Too bad Pelosi is too gutless to use them.

One problem is that the Founders didn't anticipate that so many would become so dependent on the government. Ever see a addict in withdrawal? Nasty.

Question is, do we cut off the demand, or cut off the supply? Either way, it's not going to be pleasant. We can continue in our hallucinogenic state, but the **** will hit the fan eventually.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

One problem is that the Founders didn't anticipate that so many would become so dependent on the government. Ever see a addict in withdrawal? Nasty.

Question is, do we cut off the demand, or cut off the supply? Either way, it's not going to be pleasant. We can continue in our hallucinogenic state, but the **** will hit the fan eventually.

If the history of the world has taught us anything, the **** will always eventually hit the fan. But I'd prefer trying to work the system to delay that as long as possible instead of doing what you suggest: which is tantamount to actually throwing the **** at the fan.

[W*GS]

You know as well as I do it can't work like that unless you live in a small community. The world is entirely too big.

I've seen this "more people requires more government" statement given as an axiom many times. Care to offer some proof?

Without the rules and regulations posed by government, a few will take advantage of millions (not far from whats happening now.)

It's because of the rules and regulations imposed by government that the few elite are in a position to exploit the many. We have a pull-ocracy, i.e., those with political pull are the elite; the rest of us do not and are viewed as mere cogs in a manipulable machine.

As far as leftism being the destruction of society? Any governmental extreme would do that. But i obviously strongly believe it should lean left. A far lean. Tell Roosevelt and actually most of the successful countries in the EU that leftist government is evil.

The EU is ahead of us on the same path to self-generated immolation. As long as the working, poorer many are taxed to support the retired richer few, and the demographic reality of longer lifespans and fewer children exists, socialism is doomed.

[W*GS]

If the history of the world has taught us anything, the **** will always eventually hit the fan. But I'd prefer trying to work the system to delay that as long as possible instead of doing what you suggest: which is tantamount to actually throwing the **** at the fan.

The problem is not that the government is too small and weak. It's exactly the opposite.

Basically, you're tossing brownies into the mouth of Fat Bastard. He needs a diet.

[Smiling Assassin27]

so let's tax the rich. you know, the folks of which 5% of the richest already pay 69% of all income tax in this country? they need to pull their weight, damn it!

[TailgateNut]

so let's tax the rich. you know, the folks of which 5% of the richest already pay 69% of all income tax in this country? they need to pull their weight, damn it!

Love your signature. We need Biden in office!

[TonyR]

mine went up, so its more of the same for me.

Ah, so you say. But did your REAL income go up? (assuming you know what that means)

[TonyR]

Mine keeps going up as well.

Enjoy it while it lasts. But I'm curious... does your increase top inflation every year? Is your ability to save also increasing?

[NYBronco]

Everybody has generally the same opportunity.

It really doesn't take much effort to make a better life for yourself.

[Bronco Bob]

Indeed. And those flawed creatures (i.e., those who believe in forced "fairness", "sharing" and "equality") are happily ensconced in government, where they can indulge their evil whims.

How do you propose we fix a flawed government? Making it bigger, stronger, and more extensive?

Here's a novel idea. How about voting for someone who gives a damn
about the working people of this country. Someone who will make
government work for the people instead of against them. Someone
who sees government as the solution, not the problem, and will
adequately fund the departments like FEMA and put quality people
in charge - instead of starving them and putting in cronies and
turning around and saying "see, government doesn't work" when it fails.

[Garcia Bronco]

Enjoy it while it lasts. But I'm curious... does your increase top inflation every year? Is your ability to save also increasing?

Yes and yes. The only down side is I have worked for 5 different companies in the past 10 years.

[Vega$Bronco]

This thread applies to me. I worked for 16 years at the same company only to have my job eliminated due to downsizing. This was not the ideal time to be layed off to say the least. Searching for a job in this day and age is certainly different then when I first started looking almost 2 decades ago (but that's a whole different thread.) Luckily I was only out of work 2 months but my salary went down exactly $2,000 (the same amount Obama quoted in his speech last night.)

[Garcia Bronco]

This thread applies to me. I worked for 16 years at the same company only to have my job eliminated due to downsizing. This was not the ideal time to be layed off to say the least. Searching for a job in this day and age is certainly different then when I first started looking almost 2 decades ago (but that's a whole different thread.) Luckily I was only out of work 2 months but my salary went down exactly $2,000 (the same amount Obama quoted in his speech last night.)

Looking for job is very different these days. When I graduated from Virginia Tech I asked my mother how to find a good job. She told me to look in the paper. Not even close to where to look for a job.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Still shaking my head in disbelief at the ignorance of the right-wingers who would have us believe that this:

The Commerce Department reported Friday that personal incomes fell by 0.7 percent in July, the biggest drop in nearly three years and a far larger decline than the 0.1 percent decrease analysts expected.

just means people aren't working hard enough.

[spdirty]

Ah, so you say. But did your REAL income go up? (assuming you know what that means)

went from 12K a year under Clinton to 60. Bout enough REAL income to cover any offsets from gas prices, taxes, etc. Get that rate of growth in income over the next 8 years and Im in the top 1%.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Obama didn't come from squat yet was able to get an Ivy League education and make something of himself in this "horrible system". Why is that? Was he just really lucky or did he actually put forth some effort and take self responsibility?

Your suggestion that the only reason any individual is not as successful as Obama is because he is unwilling to work hard or to pull himself up by his own bootstraps is about as ludicrous as it gets.

Hard work is a necessary and indispensable component, to be sure, but you are asking us to believe that everyone is born with equal talent, intelligence, and opportunity.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ah, so you say. But did your REAL income go up? (assuming you know what that means)

That's a VERY big assumption. ;)

[PaintballCLE]

well thats because you have to factor in the people that now have to work that were used to getting everything for free without working!

[TonyR]

went from 12K a year under Clinton to 60. Bout enough REAL income to cover any offsets from gas prices, taxes, etc. Get that rate of growth in income over the next 8 years and Im in the top 1%.

Maybe you don't remember this but the country underwent it's largest economic expansion ever under Clinton. Not that he was directly responsible, but those were good times. And not to be cynical, and also not knowing what field you're in, but I would be careful with your expectations of your income growth to continue at that rate.

[spdirty]

Maybe you don't remember this but the country underwent it's largest economic expansion ever under Clinton. Not that he was directly responsible, but those were good times.

who rode the wave of the Reagan tax cuts.
And not to be cynical, and also not knowing what field you're in, but I would be careful with your expectations of your income growth to continue at that rate.

yeah, especially if Obama is elected.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

went from 12K a year under Clinton to 60. .Uh huh, how old were you when Clinton was elected (1992)?

[Spider]

mine went up, so its more of the same for me.

LOL so does your cost of living ...... seriously think about it , in the 90 's making 10.00 an hour , your dollar went alot further , perhaps you are not old enough to make the connection , we all know Garcia Bronco lived off of handouts going to college ..........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

who inherited the Reagan sea of red ink


Fixed. :welcome:

[W*GS]

Here's a novel idea. How about voting for someone who gives a damn about the working people of this country.

If a politician or a bureaucrat comes to you and says "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you", give him a load of buckshot in the ass.

Someone who will make government work for the people instead of against them.

We would do far better with a tiny fraction of the bureaucracy we have now. Those in government now would do best to quit and get real jobs.

Someone who sees government as the solution, not the problem, and will adequately fund the departments like FEMA and put quality people in charge - instead of starving them and putting in cronies and turning around and saying "see, government doesn't work" when it fails.

The State isn't starving, not by any measure.

The government we have now does not work. Obviously. The solution isn't to put lipstick on the pig.

[gunns]

so let's tax the rich. you know, the folks of which 5% of the richest already pay 69% of all income tax in this country? they need to pull their weight, damn it!

That's funny. How can they pay 69% of the tax when the lowest 3 tax brackets already pay 60% of the tax.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

That's funny. How can they pay 69% of the tax when the lowest 3 tax brackets already pay 60% of the tax.

;D

Gotta love that right-wing fuzzy math.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Everybody has generally the same opportunity.

Great!

I think I'll go try out for the Broncos. :D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No. How is making more money than the next guy bad?

It's not.

It's the rules that are f@cked up.

The game is rigged in favor of the already-wealthy, privileged, and well-connected few.

How else does a guy like GWB become president?

[PaintballCLE]

It's not.

How else does a guy like GWB become president?

That just shows you the "strength" of the democrat party. Not only could they not beat GWB, but to lose twice? OUCH (and please save your Gore and Kerry really won) Because even if you think they did, if the party had even a below average candidate, it would have been a landslide. But no, their best people were nut jobs. :~ohyah!:

[PaintballCLE]

It's not.

It's the rules that are f@cked up.

The game is rigged in favor of the already-wealthy, privileged, and well-connected few.

How else does a guy like GWB become president?


But see again you miss the bigger picture...........What keeps the big companies here in the US instead of outsourcing to China, India, Etc....those ****ed up rules you talk about.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

(and please save your Gore and Kerry really won)


Translation:

"I live in BushWorld - where facts don't matter."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

But see again you miss the bigger picture...........What keeps the big companies here in the US instead of outsourcing to China, India, Etc....those ****ed up rules you talk about.

???

Could you try putting whatever it is you're trying to convey into coherent English sentences?

[cutthemdown]

This thread applies to me. I worked for 16 years at the same company only to have my job eliminated due to downsizing. This was not the ideal time to be layed off to say the least. Searching for a job in this day and age is certainly different then when I first started looking almost 2 decades ago (but that's a whole different thread.) Luckily I was only out of work 2 months but my salary went down exactly $2,000 (the same amount Obama quoted in his speech last night.)

Did you make sure to stay up on training and re-education? I think Obama will mostly be about that not really making your current employer pay you more. How can any President make companies pay more? He can cut their taxes so they expand but Obama probably won't give a big break to the corporations. If anything corporation will further tighten the belt under Obama.

That doesn't mean economy won't do well. The economy can take off at any time in America. The low dollar has already boosted exports and now you see the Euro start to fall a little. The result will be less European money in USA which could further slow down the retail section of our economy.

Obama IMO will try to force CO2 regulations that will stifle industry and make things tougher then they need to be. Then if at same time you tax rich people a ton you could see a real slow down. That's my main concern.

[cutthemdown]

I don't have a problem however with higher corp tax on some % of how much you outsource to other countries. I'm all about nationalism you all know that.

We can't play even with the whole world because most of it does not share our standard of living or our values.

[defenseman]

Maybe you don't remember this but the country underwent it's largest economic expansion ever under Clinton. Not that he was directly responsible, but those were good times. And not to be cynical, and also not knowing what field you're in, but I would be careful with your expectations of your income growth to continue at that rate.

Clinton had a hand in the subprime mortgage mess we are presently in. Search 1994 and some of his thoughts on it...dman

[defenseman]

I don't have a problem however with higher corp tax on some % of how much you outsource to other countries. I'm all about nationalism you all know that.

We can't play even with the whole world because most of it does not share our standard of living or our values.

Problem is , the fine print can be deceptive. That "corporate" tax is written in a very interesting way. The "mom/pop" businesses are in for a very rude awakening...dman

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Clinton had a hand in the subprime mortgage mess we are presently in. Search 1994 and some of his thoughts on it...dman

If Clinton had that much of a "hand" in it, then the mortgage mess would have happened on his watch - not GeeDubya's.

Don't you ever stop trying to blame Clinton for Bush's failures of leadership?

:oyvey:

Of course, if we listen to people like you, the republicans in Congress should be credited for all of Clinton's successes (after all, the president doesn't really have that much power, right?) - but things like NAFTA, 9/11, and the mortgage mess are all Clinton's fault.