Dems miss the bigger picture

[PaintballCLE]

Do all you dems miss the point? We have had enough too.......we all agree bush isn't the best pres by far........but your right 8 is enough......enough of someone who has no qualified experience (Bush, Obama) Enough of someone who knows little about the economy (bush, obama) Bush bankrupted the texas rangers, Obama took one of the biggest cities in america as mayor and gave them their first ever yearly deficit.....DOH What did Bush accomplish as president.....not much.........what did obama accomplish as senator.....nothing. This election is about change......its about time we had someone in there who knows WTF they are doing!

MCCAIN 08
(Sure he has a short temper but thats what he need.......someone who will not just sit there and do nothing)


The funniest thing about the dems/obama is how they are all for taxing the higher incomes..........well i got a news flash for you......99.999999999999 percent of the businesses/people you work for are included in that. If they start taxing them more, guess what.........lower wages/less jobs for you......lets face it they aren't going to lose money......so if they start getting more moeny taken from them.........the less you will make. They will start laying off people, moving jobs overseas, ect...

Look at it this way.......a buisness making 1,000,000 a year in profits now gets taxed an extra 150,000. Do you think they will say "oh well, i guess we will only make 850,000 this year? NO they will lay off 3 people making 50K a year.

Its kind of like the stupid minimum wage increases..........those are the WORST thing for the economy. Lets say a 6 back of budweiser costs $5 when minimum wage is 5.00 an hour. They raise minimum wage to $7.00 an hour. This costs budweiser more money, so now they raise the price of Bud to $7.00 a 6 pack. Who wins? Who loses? The winner: The us government........higher wages means more taxes. The losers: Everyone! People making minimum wage still can only buy the same number of things because the price of producing them just went up too. A person making 20.00 an hour loses too because now instead of spending $5 for a 6 pack, they are now spending $7 making them worse off than they were before. Bud is still making the same amount because they raised the prices to offset the prices of the increase in wages.

Everyone needs to look at the big picture. Drilling for oil in the US is a good thing. More jobs for american workers, Lower oil costs, less dependant on foreign oil.

[theAPAOps5]

McCain will ruin this country. Bush set in motion and McCain will fix it. The guy is a hypocrite out of touch good old boy.

[PaintballCLE]

McCain will ruin this country. Bush set in motion and McCain will fix it. The guy is a hypocrite out of touch good old boy.

IM not picking on you personally for what Im about to say, but all the sems keep saying that........yet none of them ever explain why they feel this way. They all keep saying 4 more years of bush. Give me specifics.....everytime i ask they never respond. McCain actually voted against the stuff bush supported more than hillary did, and about the same as obama. So why do you say he is the same as bush anymore than obama is?

[Spider]

Do all you dems miss the point? We have had enough too.......we all agree bush isn't the best pres by far........but your right 8 is enough......enough of someone who has no qualified experience (Bush, Obama) Enough of someone who knows little about the economy (bush, obama) Bush bankrupted the texas rangers, Obama took one of the biggest cities in america as mayor and gave them their first ever yearly deficit.....DOH What did Bush accomplish as president.....not much.........what did obama accomplish as senator.....nothing. This election is about change......its about time we had someone in there who knows WTF they are doing!

MCCAIN 08
(Sure he has a short temper but thats what he need.......someone who will not just sit there and do nothing)


The funniest thing about the dems/obama is how they are all for taxing the higher incomes..........well i got a news flash for you......99.999999999999 percent of the businesses/people you work for are included in that. If they start taxing them more, guess what.........lower wages/less jobs for you......lets face it they aren't going to lose money......so if they start getting more moeny taken from them.........the less you will make. They will start laying off people, moving jobs overseas, ect...

Look at it this way.......a buisness making 1,000,000 a year in profits now gets taxed an extra 150,000. Do you think they will say "oh well, i guess we will only make 850,000 this year? NO they will lay off 3 people making 50K a year.

Its kind of like the stupid minimum wage increases..........those are the WORST thing for the economy. Lets say a 6 back of budweiser costs $5 when minimum wage is 5.00 an hour. They raise minimum wage to $7.00 an hour. This costs budweiser more money, so now they raise the price of Bud to $7.00 a 6 pack. Who wins? Who loses? The winner: The us government........higher wages means more taxes. The losers: Everyone! People making minimum wage still can only buy the same number of things because the price of producing them just went up too. A person making 20.00 an hour loses too because now instead of spending $5 for a 6 pack, they are now spending $7 making them worse off than they were before. Bud is still making the same amount because they raised the prices to offset the prices of the increase in wages.

Everyone needs to look at the big picture. Drilling for oil in the US is a good thing. More jobs for american workers, Lower oil costs, less dependant on foreign oil.

If you are talking about 2000 McCain you would be right , but 2008 McCain ... sorry he misses the boat by a large margin

[theAPAOps5]

Well lets look at the facts. Up until McCain decided to run for Pres he voted with Bush 95% of the time. Then when he decided to run he turned tail and ran to "separate" himself. He is for 100 years of war in Iraq. But what makes me despise that man is he is essentially a democrat in republican clothing. He isn't liberal enough to be Dem but is decorated enough and revered enough to be a Republican. He is a sell out. And for someone like myself a staunch independant/libertarian he makes me sick.

[PaintballCLE]

If you are talking about 2000 McCain you would be right , but 2008 McCain ... sorry he misses the boat by a large margin


He is the same guy! he might have changed his stance on a few minor things to get nominated, but if your telling me Obama isn't the king of flip-floppers then your nuts.....well more nuts

[PaintballCLE]

Well lets look at the facts. Up until McCain decided to run for Pres he voted with Bush 95% of the time. Then when he decided to run he turned tail and ran to "separate" himself. He is for 100 years of war in Iraq. But what makes me despise that man is he is essentially a democrat in republican clothing. He isn't liberal enough to be Dem but is decorated enough and revered enough to be a Republican. He is a sell out. And for someone like myself a staunch independant/libertarian he makes me sick.

So your hating on the man for opting to choose for what he beleives in instead of what his party tells him too...........and you call yourself the independant?????? Thats irony for ya......

[Spider]

He is the same guy! he might have changed his stance on a few minor things to get nominated, but if your telling me Obama isn't the king of flip-floppers then your nuts.....well more nuts
No Obama isnt , and McCain is not the McCain of 2000 , you are nuts if you think McCain voting with Bush over 90% of the time is changing his stance on minor things Hilarious! .......

[theAPAOps5]

If he opted to choose what he believed in then why did he vote the party line 95% of the time. Answer that then talk to me about irony. I won't hold my breath.

[PaintballCLE]

No Obama isnt , and McCain is not the McCain of 2000 , you are nuts if you think McCain voting with Bush over 90% of the time is changing his stance on minor things Hilarious! .......

lol.....ok so McCain might not have the same views he did over 8 years ago.......but Obama doesn't have the same views he had 8 months ago.......he refuses to answer questions in detail, so he can change his stance later on, and say he was misinterrpreted earlier. Thats my deffinition of a flip-flopper.:undecided

[PaintballCLE]

If he opted to choose what he believed in then why did he vote the party line 95% of the time. Answer that then talk to me about irony. I won't hold my breath.

Am i wrong or are YOU the one who just said he was too democrat to be a republican..........and now your saying hes too republican. Hmmmm looks like obama's flip flopping is wearing off.




PS. Don't take any of this personally......not attacking you, just like debating!

[frerottenextelway]

The Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993 was one of the most successful things in modern American history.

Also, there's a big difference between Obama and Bush. Obama isn't a ****ing idiot.

[Spider]

Look everyone knows what this is about , Obama is winning people over , those loyal to the right , are lashing out ..... i will tell you something that a few here will remember ....... I supported Bush didnt vote for him , but he was my President , until he went into Iraq , and lied about the reasons , I have no use for the cock sucker now ( Cork Sucker forgot about the filter ) But I put my country in front of Party , When Bush stood on that rubble and made that speech I wanted , no I needed to believe in him , and thats were Obama is now , we need to believe in him , we know this is the best country in the history of man kind , but the road we are heading down is a road of disaster . we cant sell out our country in the name of a buck .......

[PaintballCLE]

CHANGE #1: Despite Pledging To Withdraw American Troops From Iraq Immediately, Barack Obama Now Says He Would "Refine" His Policy After Listening To The Commanders On The Ground

CHANGE #2: Despite Pledging To Accept Public Financing, Barack Obama Has Reversed His Position And Opted Out Of The System

CHANGE #3: Barack Obama Is Backtracking On His Support For Unilaterally Renegotiating NAFTA

CHANGE #4: Barack Obama Is Considering Reducing Corporate Taxes Despite Having Called Corporate Tax Cuts "The Exact Wrong Prescription For America"

CHANGE #5: Barack Obama Has Changed Positions On The D.C. Handgun Ban

CHANGE #6: Barack Obama Has Shifted From Opposing Welfare Reform To Celebrating Welfare Reform In A Television Ad

CHANGE #7: As A Presidential Candidate, Barack Obama Criticizes The Administration's Energy Policy Despite Having Voted For The 2005 Bush-Cheney Energy Bill

CHANGE #8: Barack Obama Has Shifted Positions On Nuclear Power

CHANGE #9: Obama Adviser Said Obama Was Not Opposed To An Individual Health Care Mandate Despite His Opposition During The Primary

CHANGE #10: During The Primaries, Barack Obama Pledged To Filibuster Any Bill Which Contained Immunity For Telecommunications Companies Involved In Electronic Surveillance, But Now Backs A Compromise Bill

CHANGE #11: Barack Obama Disagreed With The Supreme Court Decision Striking Down The Use Of The Death Penalty For A Convicted Child Rapist Although In The Past He Opposed The Death Penalty

CHANGE #12: Barack Obama Has Backtracked From His Earlier Commitment To Meet With The Leaders Of State Sponsors Of Terror "Without Precondition"

CHANGE #13: After Saying Jerusalem Should Be "Undivided," Barack Obama Has Since Backtracked

CHANGE #14: As A Presidential Candidate, Barack Obama Has Backed Away From His Earlier Support For Normalized Relations With Cuba And Ending The Embargo

CHANGE #15: Barack Obama Is Against The California Ballot Measure Banning Gay Marriage Despite His Assertion That Marriage Is Between A Man And A Woman

CHANGE #16: Barack Obama Says That "Mental Distress" Should Not Be Reason For A Late Term Abortion Which Contradicts His Past Extreme Pro-Abortion Views

CHANGE #17: Barack Obama Said He Would Debate "Anywhere, Anytime" But Has Rejected Joint Town Hall Meetings

Change #18: Barack Obama decides to tap the strategic oil reserve.

Change #19: Obama now says he's "open" to oil drilling.

Change #20: Obama flip flops in the same sentence in response to a seven year old girl's question about why he wants to be president. Obama wants to turn back the clock and more forward; Back to the Future?

Change #22: Obama insists he voted for protecting infants who survive abortion, but he actually voted against just such a law. (http://townhall.com/columnists/KevinMcCullough/2008/08/17/above_my_pay_grade?page=2)When he insisted that he only voted against it because it would water down abortion, he lied because the law included such a provision. (http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjBkZmE0OGYwZGUzMmQ3NDljNGI4ZjY4NjRiNTdhMTM=)

Change #23: Obama said, at the Saddleback forum that he thinks marriage is between a man and a woman, but would vote against a federal amendment saying so because it would prohibit people from visiting their lovers in hospitals. California has a proposition that defines marriage as being between a man and a woman and doesn't restrict civil unions. He won't support it. (http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2008/08/what_about_amen.html)
Change #24: (http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZmUzYmI4OTEyYWQ4YjA4ZWQxOGEzNTRhMjI5NWZjMGU=)
STATEMENT: "Originally, the administration suggested that the key measure was whether it gave breathing room for political reconciliation. So far, I think we have not seen the kind of political reconciliation that’s going to bring about long-term stability in Iraq." — Barack Obama, July 22, 2008
EXPIRATION DATE: August 20, 2008: "Let's be clear, our troops have completed every mission they've been given," Mr. Obama said at the Veterans of Foreign Wars convention in Orlando, Fla., where the likely Democratic presidential nominee courted military voters who are expected to play a pivotal role in several swing states. "They have created the space for political reconciliation."
Change #25:
Obama was friends with domestic terrorist William Ayers and then "denounced" him.

[TheDave]

Look everyone knows what this is about , Obama is winning people over , those loyal to the right , are lashing out .....

100% right... honestly it's kinda fun to watch.

[Spider]

CHANGE #1: Despite Pledging To Withdraw American Troops From Iraq Immediately, Barack Obama Now Says He Would "Refine" His Policy After Listening To The Commanders On The Ground

CHANGE #2: Despite Pledging To Accept Public Financing, Barack Obama Has Reversed His Position And Opted Out Of The System

CHANGE #3: Barack Obama Is Backtracking On His Support For Unilaterally Renegotiating NAFTA

CHANGE #4: Barack Obama Is Considering Reducing Corporate Taxes Despite Having Called Corporate Tax Cuts "The Exact Wrong Prescription For America"

CHANGE #5: Barack Obama Has Changed Positions On The D.C. Handgun Ban

CHANGE #6: Barack Obama Has Shifted From Opposing Welfare Reform To Celebrating Welfare Reform In A Television Ad

CHANGE #7: As A Presidential Candidate, Barack Obama Criticizes The Administration's Energy Policy Despite Having Voted For The 2005 Bush-Cheney Energy Bill

CHANGE #8: Barack Obama Has Shifted Positions On Nuclear Power

CHANGE #9: Obama Adviser Said Obama Was Not Opposed To An Individual Health Care Mandate Despite His Opposition During The Primary

CHANGE #10: During The Primaries, Barack Obama Pledged To Filibuster Any Bill Which Contained Immunity For Telecommunications Companies Involved In Electronic Surveillance, But Now Backs A Compromise Bill

CHANGE #11: Barack Obama Disagreed With The Supreme Court Decision Striking Down The Use Of The Death Penalty For A Convicted Child Rapist Although In The Past He Opposed The Death Penalty

CHANGE #12: Barack Obama Has Backtracked From His Earlier Commitment To Meet With The Leaders Of State Sponsors Of Terror "Without Precondition"

CHANGE #13: After Saying Jerusalem Should Be "Undivided," Barack Obama Has Since Backtracked

CHANGE #14: As A Presidential Candidate, Barack Obama Has Backed Away From His Earlier Support For Normalized Relations With Cuba And Ending The Embargo

CHANGE #15: Barack Obama Is Against The California Ballot Measure Banning Gay Marriage Despite His Assertion That Marriage Is Between A Man And A Woman

CHANGE #16: Barack Obama Says That "Mental Distress" Should Not Be Reason For A Late Term Abortion Which Contradicts His Past Extreme Pro-Abortion Views

CHANGE #17: Barack Obama Said He Would Debate "Anywhere, Anytime" But Has Rejected Joint Town Hall Meetings

Change #18: Barack Obama decides to tap the strategic oil reserve.

Change #19: Obama now says he's "open" to oil drilling.

Change #20: Obama flip flops in the same sentence in response to a seven year old girl's question about why he wants to be president. Obama wants to turn back the clock and more forward; Back to the Future?

Change #22: Obama insists he voted for protecting infants who survive abortion, but he actually voted against just such a law. (http://townhall.com/columnists/KevinMcCullough/2008/08/17/above_my_pay_grade?page=2)When he insisted that he only voted against it because it would water down abortion, he lied because the law included such a provision. (http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjBkZmE0OGYwZGUzMmQ3NDljNGI4ZjY4NjRiNTdhMTM=)

Change #23: Obama said, at the Saddleback forum that he thinks marriage is between a man and a woman, but would vote against a federal amendment saying so because it would prohibit people from visiting their lovers in hospitals. California has a proposition that defines marriage as being between a man and a woman and doesn't restrict civil unions. He won't support it. (http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2008/08/what_about_amen.html)
Change #24: (http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZmUzYmI4OTEyYWQ4YjA4ZWQxOGEzNTRhMjI5NWZjMGU=)
STATEMENT: "Originally, the administration suggested that the key measure was whether it gave breathing room for political reconciliation. So far, I think we have not seen the kind of political reconciliation that’s going to bring about long-term stability in Iraq." — Barack Obama, July 22, 2008
EXPIRATION DATE: August 20, 2008: "Let's be clear, our troops have completed every mission they've been given," Mr. Obama said at the Veterans of Foreign Wars convention in Orlando, Fla., where the likely Democratic presidential nominee courted military voters who are expected to play a pivotal role in several swing states. "They have created the space for political reconciliation."
Change #25:
Obama was friends with domestic terrorist William Ayers and then "denounced" him.

Now be fair and list McCains , though most of your Obama ones are not true ,but no need to nit pick , you believe them , now man up and Post mcCains

[PaintballCLE]

Look everyone knows what this is about , Obama is winning people over , those loyal to the right , are lashing out ..... i will tell you something that a few here will remember ....... I supported Bush didnt vote for him , but he was my President , until he went into Iraq , and lied about the reasons , I have no use for the pink pony rider now ( Cork Sucker forgot about the filter ) But I put my country in front of Party , When Bush stood on that rubble and made that speech I wanted , no I needed to believe in him , and thats were Obama is now , we need to believe in him , we know this is the best country in the history of man kind , but the road we are heading down is a road of disaster . we cant sell out our country in the name of a buck .......

Ok i agree we went to war with iraq for the WOMD.....and there weren't any........but it was the CIA that TOLD bush there was. Also the fact Saddam was killing 100s of thousands of innocent people is ok? No he had to be stopped.

[Spider]

100% right... honestly it's kinda fun to watch.

;D sure is ......

[Spider]

Ok i agree we went to war with iraq for the WOMD.....and there weren't any........but it was the CIA that TOLD bush there was. Also the fact Saddam was killing 100s of thousands of innocent people is ok? No he had to be stopped.

No not true , Douglas Fithe and the white house vetted the CIA Info and cherry picked , and as for killing hundreds of thousands > Iranians he was at war with our blessings , we sold him the gas he used on the kurds we never said a word , and then in 91 he killed those that rebelled against him and we pulled our support from , we left them there to die ......

[kappys]

Ok i agree we went to war with iraq for the WOMD.....and there weren't any........but it was the CIA that TOLD bush there was. Also the fact Saddam was killing 100s of thousands of innocent people is ok? No he had to be stopped.

hundreds of thousands eh? So have more people died under Saddam or under the US occupation?

[frerottenextelway]

Some of that list is hilarious. Since when is the President, the head of the executive branch of the federal government supposed to **** around with individual state laws decided by state courts?

Sometimes I think peeps make up how our government and our Constitution works in their own head then believes that as a fact.

[PaintballCLE]

Look everyone knows what this is about , Obama is winning people over , those loyal to the right , are lashing out ..... i will tell you something that a few here will remember ....... I supported Bush didnt vote for him , but he was my President , until he went into Iraq , and lied about the reasons , I have no use for the pink pony rider now ( Cork Sucker forgot about the filter ) But I put my country in front of Party , When Bush stood on that rubble and made that speech I wanted , no I needed to believe in him , and thats were Obama is now , we need to believe in him , we know this is the best country in the history of man kind , but the road we are heading down is a road of disaster . we cant sell out our country in the name of a buck .......



Second........if obama is winning so many people over.........how come when he first won the nomination, he was a 15 pt favorite over mccain, now hes trailing by 5-10 pts depending on where you look. Sounds to me like people are moving away from him.


Third........for the sake of the argument.........lets say the russia/georgia things gets way out of hand and we have to take military action against Russia..........Who would you want as leader.....McCain or Obama...........If ANYONE picks Obama........you better go check yourself into the nearest mental health facility. And for those of you who are already posting from one, you might wanna have them up the meds :~ohyah!:


See to me what it comes down to is this. For me National/My security is by far the number 1 thing on the list. Where it seems like Dems have economy valued higher than national security. If people thought like that during WW2 we would be the richest German speaking country ever! DDE!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rigs11]

Here, I'll bold mine too. Oh and mccain only became open to offshore drilling in june of this year.


* McCain criticized TV preacher Jerry Falwell as “an agent of intolerance” in 2002, but has since decided to cozy up to the man who said Americans “deserved” the 9/11 attacks. (Indeed, McCain has now hired Falwell’s debate coach.)

* McCain used to oppose Bush’s tax cuts for the very wealthy, but he reversed course in February.

* In 2000, McCain accused Texas businessmen Sam and Charles Wyly of being corrupt, spending “dirty money” to help finance Bush’s presidential campaign. McCain not only filed a complaint against the Wylys for allegedly violating campaign finance law, he also lashed out at them publicly. In April, McCain reached out to the Wylys for support.

* McCain supported a major campaign-finance reform measure that bore his name. In June, he abandoned his own legislation.

* McCain used to think that Grover Norquist was a crook and a corrupt shill for dictators. Then McCain got serious about running for president and began to reconcile with Norquist.

* McCain took a firm line in opposition to torture, and then caved to White House demands.

* McCain gave up on his signature policy issue, campaign-finance reform, and won’t back the same provision he sponsored just a couple of years ago.

* McCain was against presidential candidates campaigning at Bob Jones University before he was for it.

* McCain was anti-ethanol. Now he’s pro-ethanol.

* McCain was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.

* And now he’s both for and against overturning Roe v. Wade.

[Rigs11]

Hers' some more:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/06/16/mccain-sets-a-new-record-10-flip-flops-in-two-weeks/

[enjolras]

What was Obama mayor of? As far as I know he was never the mayor of anything. Nothing I can find would suggest that I'm wrong.

[PaintballCLE]

hundreds of thousands eh? So have more people died under Saddam or under the US occupation?

Dude see your out of line there........murdering 100s of thousands of people is nothing to make fun of. I have no idea how many civilians died since we have been over there.........if i had to make an educated guess i would bet its pretty low. Considering we are using precision missiles and not using H0bombs lol

Eh? Canadian? Why dont you go follow your worhtless football league in your worthless country........If your not from canada........then ignore previous comment ROFL!

[Spider]

Second........if obama is winning so many people over.........how come when he first won the nomination, he was a 15 pt favorite over mccain, now hes trailing by 5-10 pts depending on where you look. Sounds to me like people are moving away from him.


Third........for the sake of the argument.........lets say the russia/georgia things gets way out of hand and we have to take military action against Russia..........Who would you want as leader.....McCain or Obama...........If ANYONE picks Obama........you better go check yourself into the nearest mental health facility. And for those of you who are already posting from one, you might wanna have them up the meds :~ohyah!:


See to me what it comes down to is this. For me National/My security is by far the number 1 thing on the list. Where it seems like Dems have economy valued higher than national security. If people thought like that during WW2 we would be the richest German speaking country ever! DDE!!!!!!!!!!!

you cant go by polls , thats why I never post em .... and if we go to war in Georgia , i want Obama , I dont know where you reps get dems are lousy at war or dont want war , under every Democrat we have had a war .... and ww2 was under a dem .......But you cant fight a war without money , you cant secure your boarder with money ....... And we wouldnt be speaking German , why is it everyone thinks Germany attacked us ? Japanese attacked us in Pearl Harbor

[Rigs11]

Second........if obama is winning so many people over.........how come when he first won the nomination, he was a 15 pt favorite over mccain, now hes trailing by 5-10 pts depending on where you look. Sounds to me like people are moving away from him.


Third........for the sake of the argument.........lets say the russia/georgia things gets way out of hand and we have to take military action against Russia..........Who would you want as leader.....McCain or Obama...........If ANYONE picks Obama........you better go check yourself into the nearest mental health facility. And for those of you who are already posting from one, you might wanna have them up the meds :~ohyah!:


See to me what it comes down to is this. For me National/My security is by far the number 1 thing on the list. Where it seems like Dems have economy valued higher than national security. If people thought like that during WW2 we would be the richest German speaking country ever! DDE!!!!!!!!!!!

On russia I would definitely take obama, especially now that he has Biden on his team. You Want foreign policy experience? you just got it.

Also Obama wants to get out of IRaq where our military is bogged down, thanks to bush, mcsame want so stay there.
Russia knows this, that is why they went into Georgia so fast.
Watch for china to do the same thing with Taiwan shortly. What is the US going to do? we owe them sheloads of money.

[PaintballCLE]

What was Obama mayor of? As far as I know he was never the mayor of anything. Nothing I can find would suggest that I'm wrong.

that was my point.......but he self proclaimed himself the mayor of Chicago....

[Rigs11]

Dude see your out of line there........murdering 100s of thousands of people is nothing to make fun of. I have no idea how many civilians died since we have been over there.........if i had to make an educated guess i would bet its pretty low. Considering we are using precision missiles and not using H0bombs lol

Eh? Canadian? Why dont you go follow your worhtless football league in your worthless country........If your not from canada........then ignore previous comment ROFL!

Educated guess? Pretty low? try 650,000 dead.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

And 2 million that have left iraq entirely. Liberated huh?

[PaintballCLE]

you cant go by polls , thats why I never post em .... and if we go to war in Georgia , i want Obama , I dont know where you reps get dems are lousy at war or dont want war , under every Democrat we have had a war .... and ww2 was under a dem .......But you cant fight a war without money , you cant secure your boarder with money ....... And we wouldnt be speaking German , why is it everyone thinks Germany attacked us ? Japanese attacked us in Pearl Harbor

I know japan attacked us..........but come on japan wasn't even really a threat back then........that was only set up to get us in the war to boost the economy. The real war was with gernamy and hitlers goal to overthrow the entire world.

And DDE (a republican) was the one who said "F this lets kick their ass and ended the war" After the dems (Truman) took forever........again....sound like someone else we know?



Also (not you spider) but i love how the dems throw out this 100 year war thing..........if you watch/read the question and the quote...........thats is not what he said at all

[Spider]

In fact , I dont think Germany would have made a move on us , Prescott Bush , Henry Ford were Hitlers best financiers......now in WW1 , Germany did start it over the sinking of the Lusitania , we cleaned their clocks back then also

[Play2win]

If you put Party (Repugs) be before nation you are NOT a Patriot!!!!!!!!!

[PaintballCLE]

Educated guess? Pretty low? try 650,000 dead.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

And 2 million that have left iraq entirely. Liberated huh?

LOL your going to beleive a survey? Most EDUCATED people say that between 30-50K are dead/missing. This poll was done by iraqis who polled civillians..........If someone knocked on your door tomorrow and asked you how many people died of alcohol related deaths in the last 5 years.......how the hell are you going to know? You wouldn't!

[Play2win]

In fact , I dont think Germany would have made a move on us , Prescott Bush , Henry Ford were Hitlers best financiers......now in WW1 , Germany did start it over the sinking of the Lusitania , we cleaned their clocks back then also

Did you see the Joe Biden introduce the common people of America to tell their story?

One was a Trucker. He told his story. Was that you?!? ;)

[PaintballCLE]

If you put Party (Repugs) be before nation you are NOT a Patriot!!!!!!!!!

no kidding..........but if you dont put security first, you wont have a country to be a patriot of!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

If you put Party (Repugs) be before nation you are NOT a Patriot!!!!!!!!!

QFT! :thumbsup:

[Spider]

I know japan attacked us..........but come on japan wasn't even really a threat back then........that was only set up to get us in the war to boost the economy. The real war was with gernamy and hitlers goal to overthrow the entire world. Dude , i dont know where you got that , But Japan had a bad ass navy , and a bad ass air force ......Germany got bogged down , and all Hitler wanted ot use the Bismark for was to attack Supply ships , He never intended for the Bismark to face other war ships , but the pacific was all Japan

And DDE (a republican) was the one who said "F this lets kick their ass and ended the war" After the dems (Truman) took forever........again....sound like someone else we know? Truman was a good president , but no it doesnt sound like anyone else we know



Also (not you spider) but i love how the dems throw out this 100 year war thing..........if you watch/read the question and the quote...........thats is not what he said at allBut to be fair , you did the same with Obama ...... I dont use the hundred year quote cause it was taken out of context .....

[Rigs11]

LOL your going to beleive a survey? Most EDUCATED people say that between 30-50K are dead/missing. This poll was done by iraqis who polled civillians..........If someone knocked on your door tomorrow and asked you how many people died of alcohol related deaths in the last 5 years.......how the hell are you going to know? You wouldn't!

please post a link of these EDUCATED people oh wise one.

[kappys]

Dude see your out of line there........murdering 100s of thousands of people is nothing to make fun of. I have no idea how many civilians died since we have been over there.........if i had to make an educated guess i would bet its pretty low. Considering we are using precision missiles and not using H0bombs lol

Eh? Canadian? Why dont you go follow your worhtless football league in your worthless country........If your not from canada........then ignore previous comment ROFL!

Maybe you should look up the facts before you make your "educated guesses" What is the definition of pretty low anyways? Lets call the hundred's of thousands a low figure for the point this argument.

At any rate the last time I bothered to look it up the documented death tolls for Saddam were about 600,000; for the US occupation about 100,000. Since we know that there are huge numbers of deaths not reported in these figures we have to turn to at least credible estimates which plugs Saddam at 1 to 1.5 million and post-war civilians to 400,000+. You can look up the sources if you want, I don't really care.

Also you might familiarize youself with the actual accuracy of a "preciscion missile," considering how that might apply to strikes in crowded urban areas.

As for the suggestion of using hydrogen bombs in Iraq, even in hyperbole, is simply a shame. Dude see your out of line there........calling for genocide is nothing to make fun of

[Play2win]

QFT! :thumbsup:

You and I get It, among a very few others here...


I watched every speech broadcasted during the convention... working on ~ 3-5 hours sleep/night... ;D

[Spider]

Did you see the Joe Biden introduce the common people of America to tell their story?

One was a Trucker. He told his story. Was that you?!? ;)

No i didnt see that

[Play2win]

please post a link of these EDUCATED people oh wise one.

get real...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You and I get It, among a very few others here...


I watched every speech broadcasted during the convention... working on ~ 3-5 hours sleep/night... ;D

Wow - that's commitment! ^5

I managed to catch most of yesterday's events and Obama's speech today.

All I can say is that the republi-cons are going to need a miracle to top this.

[PaintballCLE]

Maybe you should look up the facts before you make your "educated guesses" What is the definition of pretty low anyways? Lets call the hundred's of thousands a low figure for the point this argument.

At any rate the last time I bothered to look it up the documented death tolls for Saddam were about 600,000; for the US occupation about 100,000. Since we know that there are huge numbers of deaths not reported in these figures we have to turn to at least credible estimates which plugs Saddam at 1 to 1.5 million and post-war civilians to 400,000+. You can look up the sources if you want, I don't really care.

Also you might familiarize youself with the actual accuracy of a "preciscion missile," considering how that might apply to strikes in crowded urban areas.

As for the suggestion of using hydrogen bombs in Iraq, even in hyperbole, is simply a shame. Dude see your out of line there........calling for genocide is nothing to make fun of

Um did you read my post? I said "its not like we wre using an H-bomb" leanr to read........although you are forgiven......maybe your part of canada that is french and sit around all day making bread ;D

Plus its not like canada would even know what an H-bomb is........does canada even have a military? Or are they just protected by the US like everything else. I wonder what would happen to canada actually had to stand on their own 2 feet without the US or GB to help them along???

Although i must admit the trailer park boys is a great TV show.......nothing like a good reality show of the average canadian household !Booya!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Did you see the Joe Biden introduce the common people of America to tell their story?

One was a Trucker. He told his story. Was that you?!? ;)

Biden was on fire.

You could make a case for Biden being the star of the DNC.

His son's introduction moved people to tears - powerful stuff.

[PaintballCLE]

Here, I'll bold mine too. Oh and mccain only became open to offshore drilling in june of this year.


* McCain criticized TV preacher Jerry Falwell as “an agent of intolerance” in 2002, but has since decided to cozy up to the man who said Americans “deserved” the 9/11 attacks. (Indeed, McCain has now hired Falwell’s debate coach.)

* McCain used to oppose Bush’s tax cuts for the very wealthy, but he reversed course in February.

* In 2000, McCain accused Texas businessmen Sam and Charles Wyly of being corrupt, spending “dirty money” to help finance Bush’s presidential campaign. McCain not only filed a complaint against the Wylys for allegedly violating campaign finance law, he also lashed out at them publicly. In April, McCain reached out to the Wylys for support.

* McCain supported a major campaign-finance reform measure that bore his name. In June, he abandoned his own legislation.

* McCain used to think that Grover Norquist was a crook and a corrupt shill for dictators. Then McCain got serious about running for president and began to reconcile with Norquist.

* McCain took a firm line in opposition to torture, and then caved to White House demands.

* McCain gave up on his signature policy issue, campaign-finance reform, and won’t back the same provision he sponsored just a couple of years ago.

* McCain was against presidential candidates campaigning at Bob Jones University before he was for it.

* McCain was anti-ethanol. Now he’s pro-ethanol.

* McCain was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.

* And now he’s both for and against overturning Roe v. Wade.

i didn't make mine bold........i copied and pasted them (they were already in bold) I didn't want to put the whole article on here........because i figured you couldn't read that much. But if you want to go get an republican to read it to you, here is the link.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/archive/barackobama/

[PaintballCLE]

Wow - that's commitment! ^5

I managed to catch most of yesterday's events and Obama's speech today.

All I can say is that the republi-cons are going to need a miracle to top this.

a miracle? you got it half right........we are going to need a miracle........to lose!

the fact is its pretty much split 50/50 right now. And if the projected 20-40 percent of hillary supporters go to the mccain side like they are saying is going to hallep Obama is done. Hell even if 3 percent go.......obama is done. Not to be racist or anything like that.........but republicans arent going to go over to the dem side to vite for a african american, who wants to raise taxes. So any peopel that go over to the mccain side is going to win it for him.

[TheDave]

Looks like we need to add orange & blue to the republican melt down list...

[PaintballCLE]

Looks like we need to add orange & blue to the republican melt down list...

hey give me some respect at least........I am already on there! LOL

[PaintballCLE]

IM not picking on you personally for what Im about to say, but all the sems keep saying that........yet none of them ever explain why they feel this way. They all keep saying 4 more years of bush. Give me specifics.....everytime i ask they never respond. McCain actually voted against the stuff bush supported more than hillary did, and about the same as obama. So why do you say he is the same as bush anymore than obama is?

did you notice that NO ONE ANSWERED THIS AGAIN.........

[gunns]

Third........for the sake of the argument.........lets say the russia/georgia things gets way out of hand and we have to take military action against Russia..........Who would you want as leader.....McCain or Obama...........If ANYONE picks Obama........you better go check yourself into the nearest mental health facility. And for those of you who are already posting from one, you might wanna have them up the meds


I'll take Obama. With Biden he won't have the knee jerk reaction McCain would. And if you're so damn worried about security why are we in Iraq depleting out military for a worthless cause? And if you think we should be in Iraq why don't you heft your ass up and get on over there. I get tired of this kind of talk by people sitting over here on their opinions. Then maybe you can find out for sure how many have died.

[TheDave]

hey give me some respect at least........I am already on there! LOL

My bad... Can I change my vote then ;)

[Spider]

did you notice that NO ONE ANSWERED THIS AGAIN.........

It has been answered , McCain voted over 90% with Bush

[ScottXray]

Second........if obama is winning so many people over.........how come when he first won the nomination, he was a 15 pt favorite over mccain, now hes trailing by 5-10 pts depending on where you look. Sounds to me like people are moving away from him.


Third........for the sake of the argument.........lets say the russia/georgia things gets way out of hand and we have to take military action against Russia..........Who would you want as leader.....McCain or Obama...........If ANYONE picks Obama........you better go check yourself into the nearest mental health facility. And for those of you who are already posting from one, you might wanna have them up the meds :~ohyah!:


See to me what it comes down to is this. For me National/My security is by far the number 1 thing on the list. Where it seems like Dems have economy valued higher than national security. If people thought like that during WW2 we would be the richest German speaking country ever! DDE!!!!!!!!!!!

So as CIC you want to pick a naval aviator that :
A: finished fifth from the bottom of his class at Anappolis ( 994th of 899 graduates).

B: Deliberately tried to break as many of the regulations at the naval academy as he could (this from several of his classmates).

C. Crashed a jet during his Naval aviation class ( normally an automatic failure and dismissal from any possibility of receiving his wings...but JM got his wings anyway. Think his then 3 star Admiral father had anything to do with that?)

D. Crashed two more jets on routine training exercises, before deployment to Vietnam. At least one was due to his clipping power lines while showing off his aviation skills by trying to fly under them.

E. Lost a fourth jet on the flight deck of the carrier 'Forrestal. There is speculation that McCain "Hot started" his jet which caused a sidewinder missile from a jet behind him to launch and hit his plane. His bomb laden plane then exploded on the deck, and 134 sailors lost theri lives , while the carrier was damaged severely. Hot starting was/is against naval regulations.

F. Was shot down shortly after on a mission over Vietnam. Therefore failing to complete his primary mission to bring his jet back.

I give him credit for withstanding his 5 1/2 years in a North Vietnamese prison.
He was injured while ejecting and recieved poor and limited medical care.

And he must be one of the luckiest men alive to have survived ejecting from 5 aircraft.

http://www.usvetdsp.com/jan08/mccain_military_record.htm


But I would prefer someone who is smart, not dumb and LUCKY to run our military.

There are also several incidents during his senate tenure that are highly questionable .

Google Keating and POW hearings to get a fuller picture of this Hero!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

did you notice that NO ONE ANSWERED THIS AGAIN.........

Because you'd have to be lagging seriously behind the curve to ask such a question.

McCain would continue Bush's economic policies and Iraq policy, for starters.

All you have to do is follow his campaign speeches to know this.

[PaintballCLE]

I'll take Obama. why are we in Iraq depleting out military for a worthless cause? And if you think we should be in Iraq why don't you heft your ass up and get on over there. .

Worthless huh? Tell that to the million people saddam killed for no reason. Plus you can't sit there and honestly tell me that saddam didn't hate us and would do everything in his power he could to help terrorists...etc...
Try telling the families of people who lost their lives in the 9/11 attacks that these wars are worthless. Try telling the familes of all the women and children Saddam killed (if they are even still alive he might have killed all of them too) that this war is worthless. Why are the Iraqi people waving american flags and thanking the soldiers everyday for what they are doing over there? Think about what you say before you go shooting off your mouth.

As for why I am not over there........some of us republicans still ahve to work to pay for all the hand me outs you dems get! :wiggle:

[PaintballCLE]

Because you'd have to be lagging seriously behind the curve to ask such a question.

McCain would continue Bush's economic policies and Iraq policy, for starters.

All you have to do is follow his campaign speeches to know this.

Ok well based on what your saying.........what would obama do differently?

HAHA WHO THE **** KNOWS.......HE CHANGES HIS MIND EVERY DAY

[PaintballCLE]

how about well all just get along and vote for chuck norris!

[Spider]

Worthless huh? Tell that to the million people saddam killed for no reason. Plus you can't sit there and honestly tell me that saddam didn't hate us and would do everything in his power he could to help terrorists...etc... actually no he wouldnt , Saddam was secular , he didnt want Jihad in his country , he didnt want terrorism , he didnt like iran Saudi Arabia , still saw Kuwait as part of Iraq , Saddam and the US were buddies until Saddam went after Kuwait and pissed the house of Saud off

[gunns]

Worthless huh? Tell that to the million people saddam killed for no reason. Plus you can't sit there and honestly tell me that saddam didn't hate us and would do everything in his power he could to help terrorists...etc...
Try telling the families of people who lost their lives in the 9/11 attacks that these wars are worthless. Try telling the familes of all the women and children Saddam killed (if they are even still alive he might have killed all of them too) that this war is worthless. Why are the Iraqi people waving american flags and thanking the soldiers everyday for what they are doing over there? Think about what you say before you go shooting off your mouth.

As for why I am not over there........some of us republicans still ahve to work to pay for all the hand me outs you dems get! :wiggle:

How does one tell that to the million (I thought it 100 thousand a while ago) he killed? They are dead. Saddam hated us, we stopped him in Kuwait. He was no threat. He was not helping Al Queda or Bin Laden (remember the guy that orchestrated 9/11), him and Bin Laden hated each other. You tell the families who lost loved ones in 9/11 why we didn't go after the guy(s) who did this because they surely were not in Iraq. Waving American flags and thanking the soldiers? Hilarious! Ask my son how many waving American flags and thank you he's gotten while over there. Know something, anything before you go shooting your mouth off.

As to why you are not over there.....you're a chicken **** who spouts media progranda, yet hasn't developed a single independent thought for yourself.

[PaintballCLE]

How does one tell that to the million (I thought it 100 thousand a while ago) he killed? They are dead. Saddam hated us, we stopped him in Kuwait. He was no threat. He was not helping Al Queda or Bin Laden (remember the guy that orchestrated 9/11), him and Bin Laden hated each other. You tell the families who lost loved ones in 9/11 why we didn't go after the guy(s) who did this because they surely were not in Iraq. Waving American flags and thanking the soldiers? Hilarious! Ask my son how many waving American flags and thank you he's gotten while over there. Know something, anything before you go shooting your mouth off.

As to why you are not over there.....you're a chicken **** who spouts media progranda, yet hasn't developed a single independent thought for yourself.

well if you knew how to read i said 100's of thousands......and after researching it........it looks to be anywhere between 800K-1.2 mil so i split the difference.

He was no threat, and he might have hated bin laden, but he still supported terrorists, the killing of americans, and the killing of (roughly) a million innocent people.

As for the american flags.........i don't know about your son.....but 3 of my cousins are over there.......2 in the green beret, 1 in the marines and they say it happens all day long. Lets put it this way.........they actually wanted to go back over there because they could see how much it was helping those people.

I haven't came up with any of my own thoughts........what great thoughts have you come up with? Bush is bad, Obama is the savior. OOOHHHH did you need a PHD to come up with that? Or did you lear it on sesame street?

I love how no dems are against the afghan war.......even though thats still going on.......but thats justified because 15 people attacked us............but the Iraq war is this horrible thing because he was murdering a million people.......but because it wasn't us who cares right?

[PaintballCLE]

Where the **** is dortoH, champ, and TD i need back up........

[frerottenextelway]

Where the **** is dortoH, champ, and TD i need back up........

They gave up and endorsed Obama.

[gunns]

well if you knew how to read i said 100's of thousands......and after researching it........it looks to be anywhere between 800K-1.2 mil so i split the difference.

He was no threat, and he might have hated bin laden, but he still supported terrorists, the killing of americans, and the killing of (roughly) a million innocent people.

As for the american flags.........i don't know about your son.....but 3 of my cousins are over there.......2 in the green beret, 1 in the marines and they say it happens all day long. Lets put it this way.........they actually wanted to go back over there because they could see how much it was helping those people.

I haven't came up with any of my own thoughts........what great thoughts have you come up with? Bush is bad, Obama is the savior. OOOHHHH did you need a PHD to come up with that? Or did you lear it on sesame street?

I love how no dems are against the afghan war.......even though thats still going on.......but thats justified because 15 people attacked us............but the Iraq war is this horrible thing because he was murdering a million people.......but because it wasn't us who cares right?


Well, if he was no threat why are we there? There are many despots who are much more of a threat to us than Saddam was. What happened to Afghanistan where the big guy supposedly was? And no one, has said they were against Afghanistan. Remember, it was Bush who pulled out of that one basically and said he didn't have time to look for Bin Laden or worry about him.

Yeah my son is on his second deployment. But he went back to back up his buddies. There are Iraqi people over there he cares for, primarily the kids, but even the ones that befriend them say they wish we would leave. They are glad Saddam is gone, but actually life was much better before all of this. No, they are not thanking us daily.

What great thoughts have I come with? I want a new President because the one we have has trampled the constitution, the economy, our veterans, and has forgotten about taking care of his own country...see New Orleans. Well maybe not so great because even a semi literate person could see it's time for a change.

[ScottXray]

well if you knew how to read i said 100's of thousands......and after researching it........it looks to be anywhere between 800K-1.2 mil so i split the difference.

He was no threat, and he might have hated bin laden, but he still supported terrorists, the killing of americans, and the killing of (roughly) a million innocent people.

As for the american flags.........i don't know about your son.....but 3 of my cousins are over there.......2 in the green beret, 1 in the marines and they say it happens all day long. Lets put it this way.........they actually wanted to go back over there because they could see how much it was helping those people.

I haven't came up with any of my own thoughts........what great thoughts have you come up with? Bush is bad, Obama is the savior. OOOHHHH did you need a PHD to come up with that? Or did you lear it on sesame street?

I love how no dems are against the afghan war.......even though thats still going on.......but thats justified because 15 people attacked us............but the Iraq war is this horrible thing because he was murdering a million people.......but because it wasn't us who cares right?

We were justified in going into Afghanistan. Even a lot of Arabs said that 9-11 was reason enough.

But Iraq!
Its not because of that...its because we were LIED to by our government about the reasons for going there (Iraq). There were supposed to be WMDs, and maybe nuke stuff. Turns out it was all BS (even Colin Powell couldn't stomach Bushes administration after that).
And then they got started with Abu ghraib and the waterboarding stuff, outed a CIA agent to make themselves look better. Failed to give the troops sent in ,the up armored vehicles, body armor and training they needed. Failed to put in ENOUGH troops to get the job done efficiently and had NO plan on how to exit. Started a back door draft by running stop loss and calling up the reserves over and over. It took them 4 years to finally start the surge.
They still fail to give the injured troops back here the medical and pshychological counseling and care they need. For Gods sake, they have the gall to invoice them for their meals while in military hospitals.

They failed to protect our troops and misused them. And they failed in virtually every part of managing the war.

Can't you see that Torture is a STAIN on American honor? Invading a country with trumped up charges so Bush can declare "Mission Accomplished"
and get his agenda passed at home is no diffferent than what the Russians pulled a few weeks ago.

MY America isn't supposed to do that kind of stuff. My america has honor and dignity, and a constitution that the President is supposed to defend, not
try to destroy.

It makes no difference that Saddam was a bad guy, and killed a lot (maybe 1.5 million even) of his own people....thats not why we went there. We were lied to , and The US lost most of its prestige as a defender of democracy when Bush took us into Iraq. And he accomplished more of what OBL wanted than OBL could have himself.

Thats what is wrong about Iraq.

[PaintballCLE]

We were justified in going into Afghanistan. Even a lot of Arabs said that 9-11 was reason enough.

But Iraq!
Its not because of that...its because we were LIED to by our government about the reasons for going there (Iraq). There were supposed to be WMDs, and maybe nuke stuff. Turns out it was all BS (even Colin Powell couldn't stomach Bushes administration after that).
And then they got started with Abu ghraib and the waterboarding stuff, outed a CIA agent to make themselves look better. Failed to give the troops sent in ,the up armored vehicles, body armor and training they needed. Failed to put in ENOUGH troops to get the job done efficiently and had NO plan on how to exit. Started a back door draft by running stop loss and calling up the reserves over and over. It took them 4 years to finally start the surge.
They still fail to give the injured troops back here the medical and pshychological counseling and care they need. For Gods sake, they have the gall to invoice them for their meals while in military hospitals.

They failed to protect our troops and misused them. And they failed in virtually every part of managing the war.

Can't you see that Torture is a STAIN on American honor? Invading a country with trumped up charges so Bush can declare "Mission Accomplished"
and get his agenda passed at home is no diffferent than what the Russians pulled a few weeks ago.

MY America isn't supposed to do that kind of stuff. My america has honor and dignity, and a constitution that the President is supposed to defend, not
try to destroy.

It makes no difference that Saddam was a bad guy, and killed a lot (maybe 1.5 million even) of his own people....thats not why we went there. We were lied to , and The US lost most of its prestige as a defender of democracy when Bush took us into Iraq. And he accomplished more of what OBL wanted than OBL could have himself.

Thats what is wrong about Iraq.

but we wren't lied to by bush.......it was the cia/top military officials/us that told bush the WMD were there.

[TDmvp]

http://bp3.blogger.com/_gV2i29Ufgzw/R7JY1zS8yhI/AAAAAAAAAIY/C8Ii1DJ9CA4/s400/Obama+Yes+We+Can+Inked.jpg

[ElwayMD]

If you put Party (Repugs) be before nation you are NOT a Patriot!!!!!!!!!

Same can be said about the Dems...more than enough kool-aid drinkers on both sides of this board to go around.

[ElwayMD]

http://bp3.blogger.com/_gV2i29Ufgzw/R7JY1zS8yhI/AAAAAAAAAIY/C8Ii1DJ9CA4/s400/Obama+Yes+We+Can+Inked.jpg

LOL

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

but we wren't lied to by bush.......

Speaking of Kool-Aid drinkers....:welcome:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://bp3.blogger.com/_gV2i29Ufgzw/R7JY1zS8yhI/AAAAAAAAAIY/C8Ii1DJ9CA4/s400/Obama+Yes+We+Can+Inked.jpg

This could only come from someone who (a) didn't watch Obama's acceptance speech tonight or (b) didn't understand it (read: Bush's base.) :crazy: :puff:

[MrLaw2u]

Well lets look at the facts. Up until McCain decided to run for Pres he voted with Bush 95% of the time. Then when he decided to run he turned tail and ran to "separate" himself. He is for 100 years of war in Iraq. But what makes me despise that man is he is essentially a democrat in republican clothing. He isn't liberal enough to be Dem but is decorated enough and revered enough to be a Republican. He is a sell out. And for someone like myself a staunch independant/libertarian he makes me sick.

what % did Obama and Biden vote with Bush? and if you don't know doesn't make throwing that stat out just look like you are just saying what you hear the dems saying.

I always find it curious how people do that. It's like when they say McCain wants to cut taxes on oil companies. Really he wants to cut corporate taxes on all companies. Repubs could say McCain wants to give tax cuts to companies that make medical devices used to save children. He does, but it would be a misleading statement without saying he is lowering them also for fat rendering plants, etc etc all corporations.

You have to look past the rhetoric to not be a party lemming.

[MrLaw2u]

actually no he wouldnt , Saddam was secular , he didnt want Jihad in his country , he didnt want terrorism , he didnt like iran Saudi Arabia , still saw Kuwait as part of Iraq , Saddam and the US were buddies until Saddam went after Kuwait and pissed the house of Saud off

All good points. I think one you left out is that Saddam may have been a little crazy also. He may not have thought out invading Kuwait as much as you think. He sort of seemed like the type of leader that lunged on anger and fear.

If I remember right he was accusing Kuwait of sideways drilling into Iraq? Was that ever confirmed? I only ask because you seem to be into oil and I thought you might know.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

but we wren't lied to by bush.......it was the cia/top military officials/us that told bush the WMD were there.Ah, now we know the origin and reason for this McCain love fest, Obama bashing.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ah, now we know the origin and reason for this McCain love fest, Obama bashing.

Indeed we do...

http://www.bartcop.com/gop-koolaid.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Where the **** is dortoH, champ, and TD i need back up........

If that's your "back up" then you're in a world of sh*t. :D

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4210/bsfordummiesom2.jpg

[Drek]

I like how all the right wing die hard are now on here doing the message board equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming "can't year you can't hear you can't hear you!" at the top of their lungs.

Last night Obama stepped up and laid down the policies he'll deliver as president. If you want an even deeper look check out his website. He's got a real plan for real change. You can try to ignore it all you want but that won't make it go away.

By the way, how does McCain plan to actually build renewables? Or fix the economy he has admitted to be no expert on? Ask his lobbyist puppet masters? Pretty much.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You can try to ignore it all you want but that won't make it go away.


That's when owning the media comes in handy...

http://www.pissedonpolitics.com/fauxnews_450.png

[Spider]

All good points. I think one you left out is that Saddam may have been a little crazy also. He may not have thought out invading Kuwait as much as you think. I didnt say saddam thought out the invasion of Kuwait , I just said he saw Kuwait as still part of Iraq . He sort of seemed like the type of leader that lunged on anger and fear. all dictators do , if they dont they lose power

If I remember right he was accusing Kuwait of sideways drilling into Iraq? Was that ever confirmed? I only ask because you seem to be into oil and I thought you might know.
That was one of the reasons ,But before that Saddam was lobbing to annex Kuwait back to Iraq , here was the problem , if Saddam gets Kuwait , he controls most of the Mid east oil , and America was ok with that , Saddam was a bastard , but he was our Bastard , but House of Saud wasnt ok with it .... A brief history lesson , OBL wanted Saudi Araba to send in the Muahjeen in against Saddam in Kuwait , but the house of Saud decided to go with America instead .Caused a huge rift in the Middle east and oil
as it is now , we get most of our Oil from Canada and Mexico , but mexicos largest field Cantarell is going dry .... I havent heard for sure but rumor has it it is in Stage 4 ., but as I say that is just rumor could be stage 3 ......So we have to get Shale oil in production asap , or we will be facing 10.00 a gallon fuel , Mexico will cease being an oil exporter to an oil importer ........

[Spider]

One of the largest oil fields was Salt Creek patch , 40 miles north of Casper , it went stage 5 ,15-20 years ago , and Anadarko has brought it back , we still dont know the exact extent of its revival , but co2 injecting has yielded some promising results ...... to explain Co2 drilling , Laymans terms here.....
Picture a 5 of hearts card ( 5 of clubs , Diamonds , spades , it doesnt matter )
you inject Co2 into the center heart , oil that couldnt be retrieved before , now comes out the other 4 spots , Now I dont know if it works on off shore , but Co2 injecting is showing more and more promise in Shale nd the In stu tech .....

[Drek]

One of the largest oil fields was Salt Creek patch , 40 miles north of Casper , it went stage 5 ,15-20 years ago , and Anadarko has brought it back , we still dont know the exact extent of its revival , but co2 injecting has yielded some promising results ...... to explain Co2 drilling , Laymans terms here.....
Picture a 5 of hearts card ( 5 of clubs , Diamonds , spades , it doesnt matter )
you inject Co2 into the center heart , oil that couldnt be retrieved before , now comes out the other 4 spots , Now I dont know if it works on off shore , but Co2 injecting is showing more and more promise in Shale nd the In stu tech .....

In theory it'd work offshore but its psychotically expensive as there is zero equipment designed for it, and would require a complete overhaul of how rigs are designed and utilized.

As the price of oil goes up a lot of resources become more retrievable. Take Bakken for example. Its been gagged at roughly 22 billion barrels of total oil, but only 3-4 billion of that is economically recoverable right now. If we see a $200 barrel then sure, you can pull another large portion of that out while still seeing some profit. But that doesn't do the vast majority of the American people any good, as oil needs to get prohibitively expensive at each tier to fund this.

Ever wonder why Bush didn't push through OCS back when he had a GOP senate majority? Because oil companies didn't care then. OCS is only viable at a minimum of $65 a barrel. Even slightly over that its pretty marginally worth the effort to lobby for it. They only care now that we're staring at $125 barrels and so they can spend out the ass on lobbyists and still see a 25% or greater return while locking up leases long term.

[Spider]

In theory it'd work offshore but its psychotically expensive as there is zero equipment designed for it, and would require a complete overhaul of how rigs are designed and utilized. I have wondered about that , i didnt know if they could restrict the pressure caused by Co2 ...

As the price of oil goes up a lot of resources become more retrievable. Take Bakken for example. Its been gagged at roughly 22 billion barrels of total oil, but only 3-4 billion of that is economically recoverable right now. If we see a $200 barrel then sure, you can pull another large portion of that out while still seeing some profit. But that doesn't do the vast majority of the American people any good, as oil needs to get prohibitively expensive at each tier to fund this.

Ever wonder why Bush didn't push through OCS back when he had a GOP senate majority? Because oil companies didn't care then. OCS is only viable at a minimum of $65 a barrel. Even slightly over that its pretty marginally worth the effort to lobby for it. They only care now that we're staring at $125 barrels and so they can spend out the ass on lobbyists and still see a 25% or greater return while locking up leases long term.I have heard this once before , but I didnt have the info to back it up ......

[Drek]

I have heard this once before , but I didnt have the info to back it up ......

That is a basic encapsulation of the entire oil drama. Discussed this with some colleagues a few days ago actually.

When man first started harvesting and refining oil we obviously pursued the easiest areas to claim it. In this country that was namely western Pennsylvania and Texas. Back then you often could get by with drilling less than 200 feet and fairly often you'd find pressurized wells that basically pumped the oil for you.

You could poke a dozen test holes a week with a single rig, and oil was cheap and plentiful.

As our use has grown we've had to go to further ends to achieve it. What libertarians would tell you is that the free market sets the price for oil, but even without speculation that wouldn't be true as the cost of extraction can often differ very much from the demand price.

Take off-shore for example. We've had the means for quite some time but no one really talked about it. Why? Because when oil is $30 a barrel why spend $65 a barrel to get it? Or kerogen extraction from shale. Its been possible for a long time, but not at less than $95 a barrel. Why put effort into that when you can just pump from cheap wells at, again, $30 a barrel.

Now that the price of oil is rising rapidly due to various problems (global demand, interruptions in supply, speculation, etc.) we see a lot more viable sources of oil at the current price out there.

But the American people are being sold a bill of goods on this that simply isn't true. Off shore costs less than the current price per barrel, sure, but when you consider the base line of a $65 barrel, plus the lobbyist fees paid to get OCS pushed through, plus the leasing fees, etc. you quickly see that price climb. If you take away the speculative bubble that most market analysts say is conservatively causing a 25% bump in oil prices then you're talking about a $100 barrel. So then you're talking about a pretty slim difference in which oil companies will obviously still insert their profit margins, as will gas stations.

So just how viable is the claim that off shore will lower gas prices? I don't see it, especially when you consider that all of this oil will hit the global market, not some American specific assistance.

We're talking a global drop in the bucket for only marginally less than what supply and demand prices oil at. It won't make a meaningful difference, except of course to exhaust the last of American owned oil resources and leave us not just 75% beholden on foreign oil, but 100%. At that point this country turns into your local flea market with the global community rummaging through our bins, with OPEC at the head of the pack.

I'm sorry but that isn't an American future that appeals to me, and I don't think it appeals to anyone else, they're just too afraid of "change" to realize how badly we need it.

[Bronco Bob]

Ok i agree we went to war with iraq for the WOMD.....and there weren't any........but it was the CIA that TOLD bush there was.

You have that backwards. Bush and Cheney told the CIA the WMDs
were there and basically to fall in line or else.


Also the fact Saddam was killing 100s of thousands of innocent people is ok? No he had to be stopped.

Did you make that number up out of your ass?

[Bronco Bob]

Third........for the sake of the argument.........lets say the russia/georgia things gets way out of hand and we have to take military action against Russia..........Who would you want as leader.....McCain or Obama...........If ANYONE picks Obama........you better go check yourself into the nearest mental health facility. And for those of you who are already posting from one, you might wanna have them up the meds :~ohyah!:



If anyone is dumb enough to take military action against a country
with thousands of nukes we are all dead anyway. And McCain is
just old enough and crazy enough to try it. So I'd say anyone
would be crazy to vote for McCain.

[Bronco Bob]

E. Lost a fourth jet on the flight deck of the carrier 'Forrestal. There is speculation that McCain "Hot started" his jet which caused a sidewinder missile from a jet behind him to launch and hit his plane. His bomb laden plane then exploded on the deck, and 134 sailors lost theri lives , while the carrier was damaged severely. Hot starting was/is against naval regulations.




I'm not voting for McCain, but I am going to have to call this one BULL****!
Don't know where you got this crap from, but I was in the Navy back in the
early 1970's on the aircraft Carrier USS Constellation. Part of my job
duties was as a firefighter so as part of my training I saw the films of the
Forrestal disaster and that's not the way it happened at all.
First of it wasn't a Sidewinder missile that started the fire,
it was a Zuni rocket. Second the rocket that went off was in the front
of the ship. McCain's plane was in the back of the ship. The rocket then
traveled the length of the ship and hit McCain's plane and exploded.
Explain how a plane at the back of an aircraft carrier sets off a rocket
at the front of the ship. And just what the hell is "hot starting"
Like I said, I was on a carrier and I never heard of that.

[TDmvp]

You have that backwards. Bush and Cheney told the CIA the WMDs
were there and basically to fall in line or else.



Did you make that number up out of your ass?


Pro war or anti war there is no question Saddam killed innocent people on a epic scale ...


carry on ...

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Pro war or anti war there is no question Saddam killed innocent people on a epic scale ...
carry on ...Epic scale? Is that opposed to the usual and ordinary "killing scale"?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Pro war or anti war there is no question Saddam killed innocent people on a epic scale ...


carry on ...

There's no question that Bush's illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq has killed innocent Iraqis and Americans on a similar scale.

So much for your pretense to some sort of moral high ground.

[peacepipe]

Second........if obama is winning so many people over.........how come when he first won the nomination, he was a 15 pt favorite over mccain, now hes trailing by 5-10 pts depending on where you look. Sounds to me like people are moving away from him.


Third........for the sake of the argument.........lets say the russia/georgia things gets way out of hand and we have to take military action against Russia..........Who would you want as leader.....McCain or Obama...........If ANYONE picks Obama........you better go check yourself into the nearest mental health facility. And for those of you who are already posting from one, you might wanna have them up the meds :~ohyah!:


See to me what it comes down to is this. For me National/My security is by far the number 1 thing on the list. Where it seems like Dems have economy valued higher than national security. If people thought like that during WW2 we would be the richest German speaking country ever! DDE!!!!!!!!!!!5-10 points? where are these polls you talk about? Gallop had him down 2 points a week ago, but Obama is now up by 8 points according to Gallop. Obama is up 8 points before he even made his speech on thursday.

Where do you expect the troops to come from? Our military is already stretched thin as it is. Anyway,Obama would handle this situation just fine.

[ScottXray]

I'm not voting for McCain, but I am going to have to call this one BULL****!
Don't know where you got this crap from, but I was in the Navy back in the
early 1970's on the aircraft Carrier USS Constellation. Part of my job
duties was as a firefighter so as part of my training I saw the films of the
Forrestal disaster and that's not the way it happened at all.
First of it wasn't a Sidewinder missile that started the fire,
it was a Zuni rocket. Second the rocket that went off was in the front
of the ship. McCain's plane was in the back of the ship. The rocket then
traveled the length of the ship and hit McCain's plane and exploded.
Explain how a plane at the back of an aircraft carrier sets off a rocket
at the front of the ship. And just what the hell is "hot starting"
Like I said, I was on a carrier and I never heard of that.

Okay....I got it from a google search on his military records, and one or more of the sites found mentioned it. But none of them offerred the explanation you did, or said anything to actually back it up with records, which if you have seen films of the actual incident and denounce it as BS, I will give you more credit for. I won't repeat it.

He still is one lucky MF to have survived so many incidents!

[Rohirrim]

Rove Suggests Former POW McCain Committed Treason and Fathered Child With Black Prostitute.
In 2000, McCain operatives in SC accused Rove of spreading rumors against McCain, such as “suggestions that McCain had committed treason while a prisoner of war, and had fathered a child by a black prostitute,” according to the New Yorker. http://bartcopnation.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=522

When you read about all the stuff Bush did to McCain and then remember what McCain did about it in return for a promise that the GOP would back his run for the presidency when Bush was done:
http://nixonisinhell.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/5mccain_bush_hug_300.jpg

I don't know how anybody can have the least amount of respect for the guy. I know I don't.

[defenseman]

I'm not voting for McCain, but I am going to have to call this one BULL****!
Don't know where you got this crap from, but I was in the Navy back in the
early 1970's on the aircraft Carrier USS Constellation. Part of my job
duties was as a firefighter so as part of my training I saw the films of the
Forrestal disaster and that's not the way it happened at all.
First of it wasn't a Sidewinder missile that started the fire,
it was a Zuni rocket. Second the rocket that went off was in the front
of the ship. McCain's plane was in the back of the ship. The rocket then
traveled the length of the ship and hit McCain's plane and exploded.
Explain how a plane at the back of an aircraft carrier sets off a rocket
at the front of the ship. And just what the hell is "hot starting"
Like I said, I was on a carrier and I never heard of that.

The dems are just trying to throw stuff against the wall and see if it sticks....agreed, this is a bunch of horse pucky, nothing more, nothing less....nice try dems....dman

[Drek]

Pro war or anti war there is no question Saddam killed innocent people on a epic scale ...


carry on ...

1. if that is grounds for war why didn't we invade China in 1940 when they walked in and took over Tibet? If what Saddam was doing was on an epic scale then what is the genocide, through murder and rape, of literally hundreds of thousands (not pulled out of my ass hundreds of thousands) of innocent, non-violent people? Other than something our nation has obviously chose to continue ignoring.

2. Saddam had been doing that for a long time before we invaded. Fact is the country was sold a bill of goods, that Saddam had WMDs and that he was working hand in hand with Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Neither was true.

Its a whole lot like Vietnam in that we were told one thing (going to war to stop the spread of communism) when in reality we were doing something entirely different (trying to protect French colonialism).

I'm all for doing everything we can to defend human rights, but don't blow that smoke up my ass after the fact like it was the premise all along.

[TDmvp]

to the last 3 or 4 who quoted me saying Saddam was a killer ...

can you act anymore like ****in@ trash ...... I'm not even pro this war you ****i#g morons ... But to say Saddam wasn't bad and a killer is just stupid playing political sides ...


Find one time i have ever said i was FOR this war ......



I'm in the middle of left and right ... and the classlessness , and the radicalism of the left makes me more and more right every day ... I would never want someone as stupid and with the same views i see some of you Fing losers post in the place ....



All i said was Saddam was a killer , and for that you dumb@$$es have to spin it into pushing your agenda ... you morons turn off more people to your party by acting like typical leftish trash ... you all would win every election hands down if you would ever learn to push your views in a way that wasn't so as if you ARE BETTER THAN AND SMARTER THAN anyone ... and attack and **** on anyone that has anything to say you don't want to hear ....

[Spider]

That is a basic encapsulation of the entire oil drama. Discussed this with some colleagues a few days ago actually.

When man first started harvesting and refining oil we obviously pursued the easiest areas to claim it. In this country that was namely western Pennsylvania and Texas. Back then you often could get by with drilling less than 200 feet and fairly often you'd find pressurized wells that basically pumped the oil for you.

You could poke a dozen test holes a week with a single rig, and oil was cheap and plentiful.

As our use has grown we've had to go to further ends to achieve it. What libertarians would tell you is that the free market sets the price for oil, but even without speculation that wouldn't be true as the cost of extraction can often differ very much from the demand price.

Take off-shore for example. We've had the means for quite some time but no one really talked about it. Why? Because when oil is $30 a barrel why spend $65 a barrel to get it? Or kerogen extraction from shale. Its been possible for a long time, but not at less than $95 a barrel. Why put effort into that when you can just pump from cheap wells at, again, $30 a barrel.

Now that the price of oil is rising rapidly due to various problems (global demand, interruptions in supply, speculation, etc.) we see a lot more viable sources of oil at the current price out there.

But the American people are being sold a bill of goods on this that simply isn't true. Off shore costs less than the current price per barrel, sure, but when you consider the base line of a $65 barrel, plus the lobbyist fees paid to get OCS pushed through, plus the leasing fees, etc. you quickly see that price climb. If you take away the speculative bubble that most market analysts say is conservatively causing a 25% bump in oil prices then you're talking about a $100 barrel. So then you're talking about a pretty slim difference in which oil companies will obviously still insert their profit margins, as will gas stations.

So just how viable is the claim that off shore will lower gas prices? I don't see it, especially when you consider that all of this oil will hit the global market, not some American specific assistance.

We're talking a global drop in the bucket for only marginally less than what supply and demand prices oil at. It won't make a meaningful difference, except of course to exhaust the last of American owned oil resources and leave us not just 75% beholden on foreign oil, but 100%. At that point this country turns into your local flea market with the global community rummaging through our bins, with OPEC at the head of the pack.

I'm sorry but that isn't an American future that appeals to me, and I don't think it appeals to anyone else, they're just too afraid of "change" to realize how badly we need it.

No I agree Off shore drilling wont lower prices , but Shale will , they can get that stuff for under 15.00 a barrel and 90% of is already leased land .....

[Drek]

to the last 3 or 4 who quoted me saying Saddam was a killer ...

can you act anymore like ****in@ trash ...... I'm not even pro this war you ****i#g morons ... But to say Saddam wasn't bad and a killer is just stupid playing political sides ...


Find one time i have ever said i was FOR this war ......



I'm in the middle of left and right ... and the classlessness , and the radicalism of the left makes me more and more right every day ... I would never want someone as stupid and with the same views i see some of you Fing losers post in the place ....



All i said was Saddam was a killer , and for that you dumb@$$es have to spin it into pushing your agenda ... you morons turn off more people to your party by acting like typical leftish trash ... you all would win every election hands down if you would ever learn to push your views in a way that wasn't so as if you ARE BETTER THAN AND SMARTER THAN anyone ... and attack and **** on anyone that has anything to say you don't want to hear ....

1. You tried to defend a comment justifying the Iraqi war based on Saddam violating human rights. If you can't see how that draws responses showing the latent hypocrisies within that kind of justification then I'm sorry, your loss.

2. I honestly don't care what way you chose to vote. If you aren't motivated enough to go visit both major candidates' websites (at the least, though all candidates would be better) and learn their policies, then double check the veracity of their stances on issues, well, you're no different than much of this nation's electorate.

And I don't care, its your choice to be ignorant. I'm here to discuss politics with people who have developed at least some basic knowledge of the issues. If you jump into a compelling debate with something that deserves response for either offering insight or a dramatic lack thereof you'll get one. If you can't handle them then maybe you should find a way to get a little more thick skinned.

[TDmvp]

You tried to defend a comment justifying the Iraqi war based on Saddam violating human rights.


I didn't defend anything dumb@$$ ... i stated a fact ... you might want to learn what the difference is ... as you can see all i said was Saddam was a killer ... nothing about parties or issues ... simple fact ...


Pro war or anti war there is no question Saddam killed innocent people on a epic scale ...


carry on ...

find the part of that statement where i'm defending anything you fu@king moron ...


as you can see nothing about who was right or wrong or politics .... just the fact saddam was a killer ...

[TDmvp]

where is L.A. calling Dreks reading comprehension skills garbage when we need him ...
Cause if someone from the Left said something as simple and easy to understand as what i had said about Saddam , and then was attacked by the right ... L.A. would be there to call them uneducated trash ....

[Rohirrim]

I'm not voting for McCain, but I am going to have to call this one BULL****!
Don't know where you got this crap from, but I was in the Navy back in the
early 1970's on the aircraft Carrier USS Constellation. Part of my job
duties was as a firefighter so as part of my training I saw the films of the
Forrestal disaster and that's not the way it happened at all.
First of it wasn't a Sidewinder missile that started the fire,
it was a Zuni rocket. Second the rocket that went off was in the front
of the ship. McCain's plane was in the back of the ship. The rocket then
traveled the length of the ship and hit McCain's plane and exploded.
Explain how a plane at the back of an aircraft carrier sets off a rocket
at the front of the ship. And just what the hell is "hot starting"
Like I said, I was on a carrier and I never heard of that.

You're right. But for some reason, McCain was immediately transferred off of the USS Forrestal. He was the only member of the crew so treated.

[Spider]

Okay....I got it from a google search on his military records, and one or more of the sites found mentioned it. But none of them offerred the explanation you did, or said anything to actually back it up with records, which if you have seen films of the actual incident and denounce it as BS, I will give you more credit for. I won't repeat it.

He still is one lucky MF to have survived so many incidents!

Títs up bro , good post ........have to be careful with google ;D
I remember when MCain was running for senator few years back , my Uncle stated , only Dumbasses in Arizona , would elect that Jody , i asked if he knew him , my Uncle said .. shut the **** up and quit prying

[Spider]

Al I have left to do is figure out what in the hell Jody is , judging from my very diplomatic uncle , Jody is not a complement

[ScottXray]

Al I have left to do is figure out what in the hell Jody is , judging from my very diplomatic uncle , Jody is not a complement


"Jody" is the guy thats Screwing your wife or GF at home, while your serving your tour overseas. A not well liked , but commonly discussed person for military personnel...although today there's Josie also.

Obviously McCains record as a hard partier before his trip to Nam, and his dumping his disfigured 1st wife for his current rich one have a bearing.

Not sure if your Uncle has a personal grudge, but it would be interesting to find out.

[Spider]

"Jody" is the guy thats Screwing your wife or GF at home, while your serving your tour overseas. A not well liked , but commonly discussed person for military personnel...although today there's Josie also.

Obviously McCains record as a hard partier before his trip to Nam, and his dumping his disfigured 1st wife for his current rich one have a bearing.

Not sure if your Uncle has a personal grudge, but it would be interesting to find out.

My uncle kicked the bucket a few years back . Shuffled loose the mortal coil , expired, farting dust , not of this world ...... Cancer ....

[Drek]

where is L.A. calling Dreks reading comprehension skills garbage when we need him ...
Cause if someone from the Left said something as simple and easy to understand as what i had said about Saddam , and then was attacked by the right ... L.A. would be there to call them uneducated trash ....

You can neg rep me all you want instead of actually debating what you said.

Someone called a right winger out on regurgitating the smoke Bush has been blowing up everyone's ass since no WMDs were found, nor a connection to Bin Laden. You immediately jumped to their defense with a comment of "well he was a bad guy!"

I, in framing an argument for why that was a weak argument for a war when we ignore worse atrocities across the globe because they are less convenient, happened to quite your weak defense of a moronic justification.

You stepped into an debate on the veracity and merits of those claims, don't whine like a little bitch when the discussion doesn't go the way you want it to.

[TDmvp]

You can neg rep me all you want instead of actually debating what you said.

Someone called a right winger out on regurgitating the smoke Bush has been blowing up everyone's ass since no WMDs were found, nor a connection to Bin Laden. You immediately jumped to their defense with a comment of "well he was a bad guy!"

I, in framing an argument for why that was a weak argument for a war when we ignore worse atrocities across the globe because they are less convenient, happened to quite your weak defense of a moronic justification.

You stepped into an debate on the veracity and merits of those claims, don't whine like a little b**** when the discussion doesn't go the way you want it to.



you must be a complete ***ing moron and obviously read on a 4th grade level ..

i didn't DEFEND ANYTHING you ***ing loser ...
and i even said i was not pro war ...

all i said was politics aside Saddam is a bad guy ..
nothing left/or right about that statement .. just the truth .
and i never mentioned WMD ...




but to your stupid @$$ brain it must read like this I love bush i love bush ....
you ***ing losers just have to bitc$ and moan about anything to get your selves off and fill the void of a actual life ... and judging by some of your post counts this forum must be about ALL you got ...


the ***ing radical hate slinging left wingers MUST learn not everyone is LEFT/RIGHT and your own stupidity / arrogance pushes more people away from your party and it's issues ... be they right or wrong ...



to b**** and moan for 3 pages AT me after all i said was Saddam was a bad guy is just stupid , sounds to me like you F'er have no lives and how you fill the void is playing Enet smart guy ... you should write a book like that PoS gaff Drek..
at least maybe rake in some cash of the suffering you love to push and live for ...



and one of you PoS neg repped me , so i neg repped all of you ... 1st time ever gave someone neg rep , but if that is part of the game i can do that as well ...

I'd just suggest you put me on ignore like i ask L.A. to do .... we will get alone alot better that way i bet...


Pro war or anti war there is no question Saddam killed innocent people on a epic scale ...


carry on ...

but to bitc% and moan after all i said was 19 words , none taking a side or a party line just proves you all who attack everything anyone says are true trash ....and below me ... but pls put me on ignore ... PLEASE ...

:thumbs: