Robertson and other D observations on the "final" pre-season game...

[Popps]

Robertson: What a great move this turns out to be if he stays healthy. Watch the tape and key in on him. He's double-teamed regularly, so he's not always making big plays... but teams are already showing that they'll commit an extra guy to containing him. He's extremely active and when he was matched up with a single blocker, he had no problem getting penetration quickly. Our line has major issues, but he's not one of them. This may turn out to be the best move of the off-season... certainly from a value perspective.

D-Line

Dumervil: Pretty much the lone producer on that line and certainly among DEs.
He'll struggle against the run, but that's not why we have him in there. I've said it many times this off-season... but thank goodness for this guy. We would literally have no one on the roster who could sack a QB without him. His importance can't be overstated... even if he's a situational player.

Engleberger: Once again, one of the worst starters on the team... if not the worst. Absolutely invisible on passing downs. Easily stalemated on every single play. He gets no push and has ZERO moves. He runs right into his linemen and is stalemated. He's marginally effective against the run, mostly because if he's not blocked, he can run a bit and get to a ball-carrier. But, he's an absolute liability out there. I don't care if he "practices well." He's ****ing terrible.

Peterson: Again, pretty active and seems like a nice rotational player. Got some push and disrupted some plays.

Moss: I know he's young, and let's hope that's all it is.... because he's not producing at all. I'm still waiting to see ANY sort of flash, and just never see it.

Crowder: Came in later with the second team and looked to be easily blocked by whomever was in front of him.


I've been pounding the table about the importance of DEs around here and other boards for about a decade. It's maddening to see so little production from these guys.... and will absolutely hurt us this year.

Linebackers

I was actually pretty impressed with the performance. They didn't look like the problem out there. I have some concerns about them in pass coverage, but they all looked pretty active and effective.... even Webster had a decent game. DJ looks so much better moved over. It's night and day.

Safeties

Not so sure, here. I'll have to watch it again, but it sure seemed like GB was completing a lot of intermediate passes and it also seemed like we were out of position to make tackles in the secondary, at times. I'd say right off the bat... there's some cause for concern here.

Corners

Didn't have a great night, but again... when your guys up front can't get any pressure or knock any balls down or even flush the QB out of the pocket, you're at a real disadvantage. Bly was out... and they picked on Paymah... who didn't look all that bad, despite getting beat. Can't recall if they ever threw at champ. Don't think they did.

As a side-note: I'm not sure what it is, but our teams have seemed susceptible to quick-hit passing attacks for a very long time. It's been several DCs... and that still seems like the best way to attack us. I have no idea why that is, but it looks to be the case again.

>>INSERT OBLIGATORY STATEMENT THAT WE ALL UNDERSTAND THIS IS PRE-SEASON HERE.<<

In any case, make of it what you want. We looked about like this last year in the third game and everyone said "we're just not showing anything because it's pre-season." Then... the season started... and we never showed anything.

Overall, I'd say we have a three-man defense. Robertson, Dumervil and Champ. DJ is competent, but no game-changer. The question is going to be... can we use scheme to such an extent to hide a considerable lack of talent.

I do think our offense will make things better for us. I think this game actually represented a lot of what we'll see this year. Shootouts because we can't stop anyone... but potential to win because we DO have enough weapons on offense. Should be a fun and frustrating season, all rolled into one.

[oubronco]

good post Popps again the defense is the key the D-line has been terrible for years and years hopefully things will change soon

[Popps]

I will say this... with Robertson, Thomas and Dumevril situationally... if we could add one play-maker at DE this off-season, we might be onto something next year.

Again, makes you wonder if Jason Taylor might have been worth going after. Not to re-fuel the debate, but a legitimate DE would make a huge difference for this team right now.

Hopefully next year we get serious. I have to give Shanahan credit for drafting a couple of guys... they're just both a long way from making any kind of difference.

Again, guys like Pryce and Dumevervil showed major flashes their rookie seasons. I've yet to see any from Moss/Crowder... but we'll see.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

But youre missing a major point here when comparing this preseason to last. We got completely RUN OVER last preseason!!! We couldn't stop anyone and, if i recall, were completely outplayed as a team. This preseason our starters have left the game with leads.

And, yes, there is truth to not showing anything. I dont even think I saw our lineman stunt this game, let alone get help from a blitzing linebacker.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I will say this... with Robertson, Thomas and Dumevril situationally... if we could add one play-maker at DE this off-season, we might be onto something next year.

Again, makes you wonder if Jason Taylor might have been worth going after. Not to re-fuel the debate, but a legitimate DE would make a huge difference for this team right now.

Hopefully next year we get serious. I have to give Shanahan credit for drafting a couple of guys... they're just both a long way from making any kind of difference.

Again, guys like Pryce and Dumevervil showed major flashes their rookie seasons. I've yet to see any from Moss/Crowder... but we'll see.

Pryce wasnt even active for more than half his rookie season. Im sure if this board were around then, everyone would have written him off and called him a bust.

[peacepipe]

I just hope that if our offensw produces like I believe they will then hopefully our defense will be alright if they can end up somewhere in the top 15.

[Popps]

Pryce wasnt even active for more than half his rookie season. Im sure if this board were around then, everyone would have written him off and called him a bust.

Pryce showed flashes and forced his way into the starting lineup by his second season. I'm also fairly sure his first game-action was in a mid-October game.

By the end of the first season... I WAS around Broncos boards and no one was calling him a bust.

That said, I no one has called Moss or Crowder a bust. It's simply that they haven't shown the kind of flashes of greatness we saw from (pick a player)... Terrell Davis, Pryce, Webster, Mobley, Dumervil, etc.

See the difference? It's not that they're busts yet, or at all. They're just not giving anyone reason to say... "yes, the potential is obvious due to the flashes of greatness they show."

[Popps]

But youre missing a major point here when comparing this preseason to last. We got completely RUN OVER last preseason!!! We couldn't stop anyone and, if i recall, were completely outplayed as a team. This preseason our starters have left the game with leads..

Well, depends on which game you look at. We left with a lead last night solely because of our offense. Last week, or D was fair... but our offense was the real story again.

So, there's no "point" to miss. It's just commentary on what's happening. I expect the D to be somewhat improved, but I think the pre-season solidifies the idea that we still have some major concerns.

[azbroncfan]

be overstated... even if he's a situational player.

Engleberger: Once again, one of the worst starters on the team... if not the worst. Absolutely invisible on passing downs. Easily stalemated on every single play. He gets no push and has ZERO moves. He runs right into his linemen and is stalemated. He's marginally effective against the run, mostly because if he's not blocked, he can run a bit and get to a ball-carrier. But, he's an absolute liability out there. I don't care if he "practices well." He's ****ing terrible.


Here is what Garcia Bronco thinks of your observation.....You are such a moron on this subject. John Engelberger never gives up on the play. He pretty much sets the example out there.

The only example I seeing him set is how to be blocked one on one and be completely ineffective against the pass. He has shown the example of the 10 second BULL RUSH also.

[dreasher54]

Good evaluation.

[Kaylore]

Good evaluation.

Except for his burning hatred of John Engleberger made a "review" that was way off bordering on fantasy. Led the team in tackles from our D-line and is starting, but from Popps' post you'd think the guy should be out of football.

[Popps]

Except for his burning hatred of John Engleberger made a "review" that was way off bordering on fantasy. Led the team in tackles from our D-line and is starting, but from Popps' post you'd think the guy should be out of football.

He should be working with Kircus over at Subway.

They should start him on night shifts doing the floors, then promote him to assistant cheese-slicer.

From there, he works a long apprenticeship and would be on his way to becoming a sandwich artist.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Linebackers

I was actually pretty impressed with the performance. They didn't look like the problem out there. I have some concerns about them in pass coverage, but they all looked pretty active and effective.... even Webster had a decent game. DJ looks so much better moved over. It's night and day.


Webster is terrible, I lost track of how many times he went for a tackle last night and the only thing he got was air. I can see why he celebrates when he makes even a simple play, he's just as surprised as everyone else.

[Kaylore]

I'm not going to argue, and I never have, that Engleberger is a starting caliber DE in the league. Him up there every down is a testament to our paranoia of being unable to stop the run and an indictment of our poor talent on the front four. However to say he sucks so bad that he shouldn't be playing at all is retarded and baseless. I hope with everyone else that at least one of our draft picks from last year matures and is starting by the end of the year. Until then we need the hard working, mentally consistent-though-atheltically-deficient John Engleberger to be there so teams don't gash us for 10 yards a clip like last year.

[BMarsh615]

But youre missing a major point here when comparing this preseason to last. We got completely RUN OVER last preseason!!! We couldn't stop anyone and, if i recall, were completely outplayed as a team. This preseason our starters have left the game with leads.

And, yes, there is truth to not showing anything. I dont even think I saw our lineman stunt this game, let alone get help from a blitzing linebacker.

Last preseason we allowed 4.6 yards per carry and in the Regular season we allowed 4.6 yards per carry.

This preseason we are allowing 3.5 yards per carry.

Pretty good IMO.

[Popps]

However to say he sucks so bad that he shouldn't be playing at all is retarded and baseless. .

O.K... what if we give him weekends off of working the meat-slicer, and let him join some sort of "Air it Out" flag football league or something? Would that count?

[Popps]

Webster is terrible, I lost track of how many times he went for a tackle last night and the only thing he got was air. I can see why he celebrates when he makes even a simple play, he's just as surprised as everyone else.

LOL

I've seen him have games like that, he just didn't look that bad last night.

I will agree that he's a marginal tackler. He's decent at getting where he supposed to be, but it's a crap-shoot from there.

He's not starting-caliber either, if you want to get right down to it. I pleaded for Shanahan to bring in a vet MLB and DE this off-season. (Or to draft one or both.)

I'm just saying as a unit, I didn't think our LBs were horrific last night... but maybe I need to watch again and key more specifically on them.

Something is drastically wrong in our coverage, though... whether it's them... the safeties... no pressure, or whatever. Teams pick us apart with short, quick passes and always seem to.

[Kaylore]

Last preseason we allowed 4.6 yards per carry and in the Regular season we allowed 4.6 yards per carry.

This preseason we are allowing 3.5 yards per carry.

Pretty good IMO.

That doesn't tell the whole story. What sucked was all the huge runs we gave up. If we can eliminate the big plays, then we should be in MUCH better shape.

[2KBack]

LOL

I've seen him have games like that, he just didn't look that bad last night.

I will agree that he's a marginal tackler. He's decent at getting where he supposed to be, but it's a crap-shoot from there.

He's not starting-caliber either, if you want to get right down to it. I pleaded for Shanahan to bring in a vet MLB and DE this off-season. (Or to draft one or both.)

I'm just saying as a unit, I didn't think our LBs were horrific last night... but maybe I need to watch again and key more specifically on them.

Something is drastically wrong in our coverage, though... whether it's them... the safeties... no pressure, or whatever. Teams pick us apart with short, quick passes and always seem to.

I think teams gameplan the short pass game and it negates any possible pressure we may get. Hard to have a good rush in 2 seconds. What I don't understand is why Denver never seems to adjust the coverage to take those 3-4 yard routes away.

the best I can come up with is that the coaches figure giving up yardage 4 yards at a time is better than 15. I think that's debatable to be honest, since I want the offense to have as many opportunities as possible. I'd make our much hyped corners go cover instead of wait and tackle.

[Br0nc0Buster]

We are going to need to get a DE early in next year's draft.

Robertson is still pretty young(26 I think), so hopefully that means his knee will hold up for more than just a couple years.

Hopefully the Goodmans are already scouting the top pass rushers in the country

[Popps]

I think teams gameplan the short pass game and it negates any possible pressure we may get. Hard to have a good rush in 2 seconds. .

Absolutely agree, here. While we do give QBs too much time, I did watch a lot of passes go off last night that no pass-rush could have prevented, short of batting some balls down. (Which would be nice from time to time.)


the best I can come up with is that the coaches figure giving up yardage 4 yards at a time is better than 15.

Ugh.

[NFLBRONCO]

All teams will do is pass and pass some more. 07 was we couldn't stop the run in 08 we are better against the run but, weaker against the pass. We are weak on D plain and simple but, maybe we can be just good enough to win games we'll see if not unless O scores 30 pts per game we could be in for another long season.

[azbroncfan]

He should be working with Kircus over at Subway.

They should start him on night shifts doing the floors, then promote him to assistant cheese-slicer.

From there, he works a long apprenticeship and would be on his way to becoming a sandwich artist.

Agreed. Then they could put all that hard work and hustle to work in places were it could make a difference and fire another employee and save money. All the hard work and hustle on the football field does you no good when you don't have the tools it takes.

[BroncoMan4ever]

But youre missing a major point here when comparing this preseason to last. We got completely RUN OVER last preseason!!! We couldn't stop anyone and, if i recall, were completely outplayed as a team. This preseason our starters have left the game with leads.

And, yes, there is truth to not showing anything. I dont even think I saw our lineman stunt this game, let alone get help from a blitzing linebacker.

exactly. our DL isn't doing anything fancy. all they are doing is playing the man in front of them and trying to keep the play held up enough for the LB's to get there and finish the play.
very little blitzing i haven't seen our line stunt much this preseason.

i say wait to tear down the defense until the full playbook is in use. because i know, and everyone on here knows, the entire league knows that Denver is going to blitz a lot this year. and in the preseason not so much.

[NFLBRONCO]

I understand preseason part to a point. I've seen other teams play vanilla but, cover wr rb's and te's alot closer and better then we do.

[Hamrob]

Robertson: What a great move this turns out to be if he stays healthy. Watch the tape and key in on him. He's double-teamed regularly, so he's not always making big plays... but teams are already showing that they'll commit an extra guy to containing him. He's extremely active and when he was matched up with a single blocker, he had no problem getting penetration quickly. Our line has major issues, but he's not one of them. This may turn out to be the best move of the off-season... certainly from a value perspective.

D-Line

Dumervil: Pretty much the lone producer on that line and certainly among DEs.
He'll struggle against the run, but that's not why we have him in there. I've said it many times this off-season... but thank goodness for this guy. We would literally have no one on the roster who could sack a QB without him. His importance can't be overstated... even if he's a situational player.

Engleberger: Once again, one of the worst starters on the team... if not the worst. Absolutely invisible on passing downs. Easily stalemated on every single play. He gets no push and has ZERO moves. He runs right into his linemen and is stalemated. He's marginally effective against the run, mostly because if he's not blocked, he can run a bit and get to a ball-carrier. But, he's an absolute liability out there. I don't care if he "practices well." He's ****ing terrible.

Peterson: Again, pretty active and seems like a nice rotational player. Got some push and disrupted some plays.

Moss: I know he's young, and let's hope that's all it is.... because he's not producing at all. I'm still waiting to see ANY sort of flash, and just never see it.

Crowder: Came in later with the second team and looked to be easily blocked by whomever was in front of him.


I've been pounding the table about the importance of DEs around here and other boards for about a decade. It's maddening to see so little production from these guys.... and will absolutely hurt us this year.

Linebackers

I was actually pretty impressed with the performance. They didn't look like the problem out there. I have some concerns about them in pass coverage, but they all looked pretty active and effective.... even Webster had a decent game. DJ looks so much better moved over. It's night and day.

Safeties

Not so sure, here. I'll have to watch it again, but it sure seemed like GB was completing a lot of intermediate passes and it also seemed like we were out of position to make tackles in the secondary, at times. I'd say right off the bat... there's some cause for concern here.

Corners

Didn't have a great night, but again... when your guys up front can't get any pressure or knock any balls down or even flush the QB out of the pocket, you're at a real disadvantage. Bly was out... and they picked on Paymah... who didn't look all that bad, despite getting beat. Can't recall if they ever threw at champ. Don't think they did.

As a side-note: I'm not sure what it is, but our teams have seemed susceptible to quick-hit passing attacks for a very long time. It's been several DCs... and that still seems like the best way to attack us. I have no idea why that is, but it looks to be the case again.

>>INSERT OBLIGATORY STATEMENT THAT WE ALL UNDERSTAND THIS IS PRE-SEASON HERE.<<

In any case, make of it what you want. We looked about like this last year in the third game and everyone said "we're just not showing anything because it's pre-season." Then... the season started... and we never showed anything.

Overall, I'd say we have a three-man defense. Robertson, Dumervil and Champ. DJ is competent, but no game-changer. The question is going to be... can we use scheme to such an extent to hide a considerable lack of talent.

I do think our offense will make things better for us. I think this game actually represented a lot of what we'll see this year. Shootouts because we can't stop anyone... but potential to win because we DO have enough weapons on offense. Should be a fun and frustrating season, all rolled into one.Well, I certainly respect your post and your opinions...but let me ask you this. How many sacks have we given up in the preseason? I don't believe our #1's have given up a single one? Is that correct?

My point here is...Does that mean the Texans, Cowboys and Packers need to worry about their Dline? Hey, our first string D has gotten a couple sacks at least.

Don't you think...alot of this is because...we're still only rushing 3 to 4 guys with very few stunts and/or blitzes? I mean, look the dline has earned their poor rap...but let's at least give them the benefit of the doubt for the first few games of the season before we start talking about busts etc.

[Popps]

Well, I certainly respect your post and your opinions...but let me ask you this. How many sacks have we given up in the preseason? I don't believe our #1's have given up a single one? Is that correct?

My point here is...Does that mean the Texans, Cowboys and Packers need to worry about their Dline? Hey, our first string D has gotten a couple sacks at least.

Don't you think...alot of this is because...we're still only rushing 3 to 4 guys with very few stunts and/or blitzes? I mean, look the dline has earned their poor rap...but let's at least give them the benefit of the doubt for the first few games of the season before we start talking about busts etc.

The overall lack of pressure may have to do in part with a vanilla defensive scheme.

That said... it didn't stop Elvis Dumervil from making plays in each game.

People aren't upset because we're not running complex blitz schemes in the pre-season, they're upset because on an individual basis, or defenders simply aren't showing very much. (Outside of a few players.)

People who say that "you can't judge anything from pre-season" just don't understand what they're watching. Coaches obtain vital information from every single pre-season play, particularly from guys like Moss, Crowder and other borderline players. Players win and lose jobs in the pre-season.

The pre-season is anything but meaningless. Guarantee you that any NFL coach will tell you as much.

Player-evaluation is what we're talking about here. Yes, some of the end results are limited by scheme... but great players tend to look great, and sub-par players look sub-par... vanilla scheme or not.

[Popps]

Also just to add... the lack of pressure up front is just a carry-over from the last few years. The story was in place, which is why you're seeing people look for the issue to be resolved and frustrated that it doesn't appear to be.

[SoCalBronco]

Hey Popps, when is your birthday? We were planning on all pitching in to get you an orange Engelberger jersey. :)

[Popps]

Hey Popps, when is your birthday? We were planning on all pitching in to get you an orange Engelberger jersey. :)

Hilarious!


http://llnw.image.cbslocal.com/0/2007/08/03/370x278/images_sizedimage_215150133.jpg

Wow, I just realized.... we need to add him to the "most likely to chop someone up thread" someone started a few weeks ago.

Yikes! I better watch what I say about this guy.

[BroncoBuff]

This was a good thread for awhile there .... ::)

[maher_tyler]

LOL

I've seen him have games like that, he just didn't look that bad last night.

I will agree that he's a marginal tackler. He's decent at getting where he supposed to be, but it's a crap-shoot from there.

He's not starting-caliber either, if you want to get right down to it. I pleaded for Shanahan to bring in a vet MLB and DE this off-season. (Or to draft one or both.)

I'm just saying as a unit, I didn't think our LBs were horrific last night... but maybe I need to watch again and key more specifically on them.

Something is drastically wrong in our coverage, though... whether it's them... the safeties... no pressure, or whatever. Teams pick us apart with short, quick passes and always seem to.

Our CB's are always like 10 yards off the LOS because we have an extra guy in the box to help with the run D...i can't recall the last time i saw are corners play press coverage...until our D line can get pressure and stop the run without the help of a safety on a regular basis expect the same..it sucks but its better than being beaten deep for a big gain or TD!!

[Broncoman13]

The run D is much improved. I think our pass D is going to take a step backward though. The middle of the field in what the Broncos perceive as rushing downs is going to be wide open and offenses will eventually expose it. McCree better be all world playing the middle at deep safety or we're in trouble!

Also, while last year everyone was talking about the defense would turn around once the season started, we weren't saying that b/c of the play calls, we were saying it b/c of the scheme and the players understanding it. The biggest difference right now is we're running very basic sets. Similar to what Coyer did, we will mix in a lot of zone blitzing to compensate for a DLine that just doesn't do well getting after the QB. I hate to say it, but I actually think we're holding the DLine back again. I think the only person that has the green light everytime to get after the QB is Elvis. Everyone else is told run first and then they can get after the QB. Pryce complained about this once upon a time and I'm seeing the same thing right now. I don't know if we'll be a sell out defense and blitz like we did in 2005-2006, but I bet we'll blitz atleast 25% of the time.

Last but not least, how can anyone complain about pass rush when 75% of the time our opponents are doing 3 step drops on us and tearing up the short stuff? Why Shanny doesn't key on that and play more bump coverage is beyond me. EVERY pre snap look is the same. You have at least one corner playing 7-10 yards off his man. The nickel and 2 may play up and bump, but then the 1 is playing way off the ball allowing that quick pass. FRUSTRATING!

[elsid13]

I think it because the coaching staff has adopted the philosophy that want the opponent to grind it out to score and are afraid to risk the big play, They are willing to bet that opponent won't be ability be able to sustain a long drive with making a mistake giving defense opperunity to get a turn over

[BMarsh615]

That doesn't tell the whole story. What sucked was all the huge runs we gave up. If we can eliminate the big plays, then we should be in MUCH better shape.

The Texans game was the only game that we gave up multiple 10 yard runs. I think our run defense has played better each game we played. More often than not we are stuffing the run. It is a good sign.

The only thing I am worried about is we play a little to aggressive against the run and we could get killed with bootlegs/playaction passes.

[lex]

The most important area that needed improvement is DT, and so far it looks a lot better than it did at the same point last year. Both Thomas and Robertson are upgrades from 2008. If you cant stop the run in the NFL, you cant win. If you can at least hold your own against the run, you can, to some degree, scheme pass rush if needed. And we havent been seeing a lot of this in the preseason.

Regarding our DEs, Im hoping to see improvement by the end of the season. I actually think Moss has done ok vs the run. Sufficiently enough to where, I wonder why have Engelburger out there? I just dont think he is so much stronger than Moss against the run that he should be playing first string over Crowder or Moss given E'burgers severely limited upside.

Im also not an advocate of Bly for a variety of reasons. I expressed this last year and people were bent out of shape. Now its interesting to see the overall tone change on Bly.

Id like to see Spencer get a look at MLB. We know what we have in Niko and Webster. Why not see what Larsen can do? Same with Woodyard. The guy is all over the place and he may not even know what he's doing yet.

Im not as concerned with the S position as I am the front 7. Id like to get away from the tendencey to build the team from back to front.

[cmhargrove]

1. We are improved on defense because we are doing a better job against the run - regardless of DE pressure. Maybe a thought about the DE's. Maybe their assignment has been to bull rush the outside and force the run inside? However, I would like to see a little more slashing and spinning from Moss on a clear pass rush situation. That worries me.

2. Our O-line will help our defense. Time of posession is looking good for us as long as we don't have too many :18 second drives :wiggle:

3. We have improved on both sides of the ball (and possibly on Special Teams).

All we can say is that this team is still a "work in progress." There are a lot of young guys, and they have been improving - maybe not as fast as we would all like, but they have been improving.

We have been "In" every contest so far. It may not be our defense of 2005, but it is better than last year.

[TotallyScrewed]

Champ can still play 8-10 yards off and cover the short stuff but Bly apparently can't. Was he hurt? If not, he just looked terrible and Foxy didn't look much better. Paymah is Paymah...he has pretty good coverage and then he loses confidence and grabs when he didn't need to grab.

The safeties seem lost. The middle of the field is open...they don't roll to protect away from Champ.

I thought the defense played poorly, right from the start. I thought Cutler struggled too. I thought the running backs and the o-line played pretty well.

[lex]

Champ can still play 8-10 yards off and cover the short stuff but Bly apparently can't. Was he hurt? If not, he just looked terrible and Foxy didn't look much better. Paymah is Paymah...he has pretty good coverage and then he loses confidence and grabs when he didn't need to grab.

The safeties seem lost. The middle of the field is open...they don't roll to protect away from Champ.

I thought the defense played poorly, right from the start. I thought Cutler struggled too. I thought the running backs and the o-line played pretty well.

I wonder if the corners are playing off because we're expecting to blitz a lot more during the season. And because we are going to blitz more, I wonder if we're trying to discourage the deep stuff by having the CBs play off the WRs and essentailly funnel the QBs mistakes to the short stuff.

[cmhargrove]

I wonder if the corners are playing off because we're expecting to blitz a lot more during the season. And because we are going to blitz more, I wonder if we're trying to discourage the deep stuff by having the CBs play off the WRs and essentailly funnel the QBs mistakes to the short stuff.

It seems a reasonable game plan based on the performance of Aaron Rogers before that game. He had definitely been "off" all preseason.

However, other teams had definitely pressured him more than we did (at the line).

[elsid13]

I wonder if the corners are playing off because we're expecting to blitz a lot more during the season. And because we are going to blitz more, I wonder if we're trying to discourage the deep stuff by having the CBs play off the WRs and essentailly funnel the QBs mistakes to the short stuff.

That not it. Champ has stated before that he like playing off regardless of the defense call because it gives him the ability to drive on the pass. Bly like the same thing and the coaching staff has adopted that practice.

[lex]

That not it. Champ has stated before that he like playing off regardless of the defense call because it gives him the ability to drive on the pass. Bly like the same thing and the coaching staff has adopted that practice.

Theres overlap. Funnelling the passes to the short stuff better allows you to drive on the pass, no? I mean, if you do bump and run, isnt there a greater incentive to go deep, especially if theres a blitz? Its not mutually exclusive. Shanahan has also said he wants to get back to what weve done in the past (as opposed to the Bates system) which involved blitzing more.

[elsid13]

Theres overlap. Funnelling the passes to the short stuff better allows you to drive on the pass, no? I mean, if you do bump and run, isnt there a greater incentive to go deep, especially if theres a blitz? Its not mutually exclusive. Shanahan has also said he wants to get back to what weve done in the past (as opposed to the Bates system) which involved blitzing more.

There is overlap I give you that, but my problem is that we seem to mix and match schemes that don't seem to be compatible. In this preseason I saw playing defense front that looks like the Bates defense- DE wide forcing running inside DT attacking one gap, with Coyler idea of safety(FS) in the box with single deep coverage by SS with corners playing off. I waiting to see how it develops before I make a judgement.

[lex]

There is overlap I give you that, but my problem is that we seem to mix and match schemes that don't seem to be compatible. In this preseason I saw playing defense front that looks like the Bates defense- DE wide forcing running inside DT attacking one gap, with Coyler idea of safety(FS) in the box with single deep coverage by SS with corners playing off. I waiting to see how it develops before I make a judgement.

I think Shanahan subscribes to the Capt. Lindemann philosophy on defense.

[2KBack]

There is overlap I give you that, but my problem is that we seem to mix and match schemes that don't seem to be compatible. In this preseason I saw playing defense front that looks like the Bates defense- DE wide forcing running inside DT attacking one gap, with Coyler idea of safety(FS) in the box with single deep coverage by SS with corners playing off. I waiting to see how it develops before I make a judgement.

Slowiks willingness to mix, match, and experiment with the defense could end up being a big positive. Well, that's the positive outlook. The possibility remains that they never commit to anything substantial and it looks like a mess all season. I'm interested to see how they approach the regular season.

[Spider]

Theres overlap. Funnelling the passes to the short stuff better allows you to drive on the pass, no? I mean, if you do bump and run, isnt there a greater incentive to go deep, especially if theres a blitz? Its not mutually exclusive. Shanahan has also said he wants to get back to what weve done in the past (as opposed to the Bates system) which involved blitzing more.

Depends on the team you are facing .........there isnt 1 magic formula ...

[lex]

Depends on the team you are facing .........there isnt 1 magic formula ...

No, I think its pretty universal that you want to stop the run and put pressure on the QB, whether its with your front 4 or by blitzing.

[kappys]

Last preseason we allowed 4.6 yards per carry and in the Regular season we allowed 4.6 yards per carry.

This preseason we are allowing 3.5 yards per carry.

Pretty good IMO.

This is the biggest hope I get from the preseason. I know Kaylore mentioned it was the big plays that killed us - I disagree. Allowing 5 yards up the gut play after play was an unmitigated disaster. I would rather see Engelberger in there, have some run stopping ability, and hope and pray for one of our CB's to come up with a big play.

[Spider]

No, I think its pretty universal that you want to stop the run and put pressure on the QB, whether its with your front 4 or by blitzing.

I was talking about the funneling and bump and run .......and there are different way in stopping the run and pressuring the qb ....... Down and distance dictates what you do more then anything else ........

[lex]

This is the biggest hope I get from the preseason. I know Kaylore mentioned it was the big plays that killed us - I disagree. Allowing 5 yards up the gut play after play was an unmitigated disaster. I would rather see Engelberger in there, have some run stopping ability, and hope and pray for one of our CB's to come up with a big play.

Its not Engleberger as much as its our DTs not playing like garbage. Last year, when I saw Amon Gordon in the starting lineup for the SF game, I cringed. The guy was so bad that he went from being a starter to not even being on the team before the end of the year. Sam Adams wasnt as bad but if you want him to do anything besides stand up his guy, forget it. Our DTs were the schwerpunkt last year.

[Popps]

Our CB's are always like 10 yards off the LOS because we have an extra guy in the box to help with the run D...i can't recall the last time i saw are corners play press coverage...until our D line can get pressure and stop the run without the help of a safety on a regular basis expect the same..it sucks but its better than being beaten deep for a big gain or TD!!

There's an excellent example of this on the 2nd play of the game. (I believe it was.) Bly was lined up a good 6 yards off of his receiver and started backwards on the snap. Rogers just fired the ball over to the wideout and it was probably 5 yards before Bly was even close to him. Easy 5-7 yard gain.

[Popps]

T75% of the time our opponents are doing 3 step drops on us and tearing up the short stuff? Why Shanny doesn't key on that and play more bump coverage is beyond me. EVERY pre snap look is the same. You have at least one corner playing 7-10 yards off his man. The nickel and 2 may play up and bump, but then the 1 is playing way off the ball allowing that quick pass. FRUSTRATING!

It's a question worth asking. We went out and spent truckloads of money on CBs, and we're going to line them up 7 yards off the WR on every play?

Whatever the reason, it does seem like we have big problems with quick-hit passers. Manning always exploits this to no end against us.

[Spider]

Last but not least, how can anyone complain about pass rush when 75% of the time our opponents are doing 3 step drops on us and tearing up the short stuff? Why Shanny doesn't key on that and play more bump coverage is beyond me. EVERY pre snap look is the same. You have at least one corner playing 7-10 yards off his man. The nickel and 2 may play up and bump, but then the 1 is playing way off the ball allowing that quick pass. FRUSTRATING!

My problem would be , we have champ that can do this , but what about the rest ? they have 3 wr set and we run up to bump one , all it takes is one mis step and the receiver is off to the races , I like bump and run and if we had Safties like Atwater and DS49 back and Corner that will make contact instead of Bly , would be all for it .........

[TotallyScrewed]

That not it. Champ has stated before that he like playing off regardless of the defense call because it gives him the ability to drive on the pass. Bly like the same thing and the coaching staff has adopted that practice.

As I understood it, Champ liked playing off because he wants to sneak a peek at the QB as the play unfolds. It also gives Champ a chance to read pass or run and Champ has the speed to burst through the runner or cut off the short routes or turn and run with most receivers down field. We're really spoiled with that. Other than DWill, Denver hasn't had a CB with similar skills and DWill didn't have them all.

Bly isn't the same tackler as Champ. I don't mind the simple drag the player down tackles. Just make the tackle.

If they are intending to funnel receiving traffic to the middle, their safeties better get with it. Same goes for both outside backers.

The front seven are getting pushed off the ball and the back seven aren't playing as a unit.

[Premier-Ace55]

I really feel that we need to work on our defensive ends in the draft and free agency and I was looking at Jarvis in this last game and did not see any pass rush moves. Both he and Crowder have to use there hands more if they are to be effective just bull rushing a lineman 1 1/2 x your size isn't an effective stragety.

[Popps]

I really feel that we need to work on our defensive ends in the draft and free agency and I was looking at Jarvis in this last game and did not see any pass rush moves. Both he and Crowder have to use there hands more if they are to be effective just bull rushing a lineman 1 1/2 x your size isn't an effective stragety.

Both were high picks and you'd hope to be seeing even slight glimmers of greatness here and there. It's got some people concerned.

The party line is "it takes several years for a DE to play at a high level"... but that's not really the concern. Most great players show flashes of greatness almost immediately. Moss missed some time, but he also got a lot of real NFL game-experience and two training camps/pre-seasons. You'd just like to see some signs of encouragement.

[lex]

I really feel that we need to work on our defensive ends in the draft and free agency and I was looking at Jarvis in this last game and did not see any pass rush moves. Both he and Crowder have to use there hands more if they are to be effective just bull rushing a lineman 1 1/2 x your size isn't an effective stragety.

First of all, its not certain yet how Moss or Crowder will do. Second, we used to try to draft WRs in the first. Neither Nash or Lelie worked out so well. And then we take Marshall in the 4th. Also its similar with CB except that we were never able to draft our own starting CBs. We had trade out for them. So, considering risk, is it justifiable to use a lot of draft picks on DE with that in mind? Or is this not at all similar to WRs and CBs.

[Premier-Ace55]

I'm going to be patient i'm sure they will develop just fine. I believe as a team we are a couple of years out and have to learn how to play the pro game. I would definately continue to look to boost the defensive line. Both in the pash rush but also overall being more physical. This is a very young team and really as fans we should really try to be have some patience in there development however there is nothing wrong with trying to improve on our D-line.

[Cito Pelon]

From what I've seen, the 1st team D has the SS in the box on 1st and 2nd down, obvious run downs, therefore the opposing O is gonna take advantage of that and attack the hole where the safety is supposed to be. Of course the D coaches are experimenting with how they're going to run the D in reg season, seeing who is best at what. Denver has not been running a vanilla D, but are experimenting to see who fits where and when. The D is in flux right now, they haven't decided who Mike is. Hell, DJ is wearing the green dot all this preseason for the first teamers.

[Mediator12]

From what I've seen, the 1st team D has the SS in the box on 1st and 2nd down, obvious run downs, therefore the opposing O is gonna take advantage of that and attack the hole where the safety is supposed to be. Of course the D coaches are experimenting with how they're going to run the D in reg season, seeing who is best at what. Denver has not been running a vanilla D, but are experimenting to see who fits where and when. The D is in flux right now, they haven't decided who Mike is. Hell, DJ is wearing the green dot all this preseason for the first teamers.

DJ will wear the helmet as he is the most likely LB to be on the field on any given play. Most Mike's call the plays, but DJ will be out there like Al Wilson once was. Almost every single play.

[Br0nc0Buster]

First of all, its not certain yet how Moss or Crowder will do. Second, we used to try to draft WRs in the first. Neither Nash or Lelie worked out so well. And then we take Marshall in the 4th. Also its similar with CB except that we were never able to draft our own starting CBs. We had trade out for them. So, considering risk, is it justifiable to use a lot of draft picks on DE with that in mind? Or is this not at all similar to WRs and CBs.

You cant draft scared like that. If we need a DE, then we need to draft one high and not worry about past busts. Besides the drafts look like they have been improving lately. I will chalk the 07 draft up as a desperation draft. But the past few drafts have been solid.

But if Moss doesnt pan out this year we need to get a DE. Preferibly on the first day.

[lex]

You cant draft scared like that. If we need a DE, then we need to draft one high and not worry about past busts. Besides the drafts look like they have been improving lately. I will chalk the 07 draft up as a desperation draft. But the past few drafts have been solid.

But if Moss doesnt pan out this year we need to get a DE. Preferibly on the first day.

No, if you recognize that its a position that is hard to predict, then the value diminishes in the first. And bear in mind, chances are we wont be high enough to draft someone like Peppers. I would rather take safer picks in the 1st. And then use the buckshot approach in the middle rounds to find one.

[Mediator12]

The reasons the CB's are playing off coverage are many, and I addressed them 2 years ago when they started to do it.

1. It gives the CB's a better run support angle with a porous front seven. Now that they have gone to 8 in the box, it does not hold the same value there.

2. The lack of a pass rush. Being in off coverage gives an extra second for the CB to recognize the pattern and run/pass keys. Having that second is mandatory with no pass rush, and advantageous on breaking on the ball in front. My biggest problem is that the technique is getting very sloppy. The CB has to let the WR eat up that cushion slowly, but they seem to try and keep the cushion too long and allow easy underneath throws.

3. Allows them to disguise coverages and get different angles in the passing game.

4. Philosophy. It is Slowiks technique that he favors and teaches. Unfortunately, no one seems to be teaching it now that he is actually running the defense.

[Crushisback]

Maybe the short passes are taken away when we start to blitz and bring our corners up to press. This is what Slowik was supposed to be doing more of this year. Let's just hope he does and it works.

We need to let our corners earn thier checks this year.

[cutthemdown]

I will say this... with Robertson, Thomas and Dumevril situationally... if we could add one play-maker at DE this off-season, we might be onto something next year.

Again, makes you wonder if Jason Taylor might have been worth going after. Not to re-fuel the debate, but a legitimate DE would make a huge difference for this team right now.

Hopefully next year we get serious. I have to give Shanahan credit for drafting a couple of guys... they're just both a long way from making any kind of difference.

Again, guys like Pryce and Dumevervil showed major flashes their rookie seasons. I've yet to see any from Moss/Crowder... but we'll see.

I think for Broncos they should be patient and not look for a quick fix for the front seven.

I think keep looking for young players should be the key. Guys like Taylor just aren't worth it for Broncos. Besides he limped off the field today like most high priced FA end up doing.

Now if some team wants to part with a 25 yr old DE stud that's different.

[Br0nc0Buster]

No, if you recognize that its a position that is hard to predict, then the value diminishes in the first. And bear in mind, chances are we wont be high enough to draft someone like Peppers. I would rather take safer picks in the 1st. And then use the buckshot approach in the middle rounds to find one.

The entire draft is a crap shoot. Some picks pan out, some dont. DE is a more important position than most on the defense. That is why a good DE trumps other positions if you think the players available are of about the same qualitity. I would rather take a flyer on a really talented end than draft 3 middle rounders and hope we find the next Dumervil.

[lex]

The entire draft is a crap shoot. Some picks pan out, some dont. DE is a more important position than most on the defense. That is why a good DE trumps other positions if you think the players available are of about the same qualitity. I would rather take a flyer on a really talented end than draft 3 middle rounders and hope we find the next Dumervil.


Weve done that with Moss...just like we used 1st round picks on CB and WR. Maybe we should just suck it up and get a free agent. It might be cheaper than rolling the dice in round one, let alone round one in possibly multiple drafts.

[Cito Pelon]

Weve done that with Moss...just like we used 1st round picks on CB and WR. Maybe we should just suck it up and get a free agent. It might be cheaper than rolling the dice in round one, let alone round one in possibly multiple drafts.

Denve went after Kerney real hard last year before they drafted Moss and Crowder. Too bad they didn't land him. That's a bigtime 'what if' deal or lack thereof to me.

[lex]

Denve went after Kerney real hard last year before they drafted Moss and Crowder. Too bad they didn't land him. That's a bigtime 'what if' deal or lack thereof to me.

Meh, theres too much turmoil when there isnt instant gratification. It kind of made sense to draft Moss in that we also had a very young QB and you can reason that all the Pat Kerneys in the world werent going to take us anywhere until Jay was ready to take us take us where we're going to go. Therefore, with that kind of uncertainty, it kind of makes sense to get a younger guy whose learning curve, more or less, coincides with that of our QB. Moss was injured last year and Im sure they wish he was further along but its not like they could have predicted the broken leg before drafting him. Not to mention, that we also hedged our bets by taking Crowder.

[Spider]

The reasons the CB's are playing off coverage are many, and I addressed them 2 years ago when they started to do it.

1. It gives the CB's a better run support angle with a porous front seven. Now that they have gone to 8 in the box, it does not hold the same value there.

2. The lack of a pass rush. Being in off coverage gives an extra second for the CB to recognize the pattern and run/pass keys. Having that second is mandatory with no pass rush, and advantageous on breaking on the ball in front. My biggest problem is that the technique is getting very sloppy. The CB has to let the WR eat up that cushion slowly, but they seem to try and keep the cushion too long and allow easy underneath throws.

3. Allows them to disguise coverages and get different angles in the passing game.

4. Philosophy. It is Slowiks technique that he favors and teaches. Unfortunately, no one seems to be teaching it now that he is actually running the defense.

not to mention short passing plays going for 6 ...... Champ i am not worried about , Bly well ... but 3 WR sets would scare the piss out of me

[broncofan2438]

I',m really excited for Robertson once the season starts. I have a feeling that we are going to see some things that we have not in preseason. More blitzing for sure. I heard on an interview with Champ that we are going to see some different things that he couldnt disclose. Some secret plays maybe?

[Cito Pelon]

Meh, theres too much turmoil when there isnt instant gratification. It kind of made sense to draft Moss in that we also had a very young QB and you can reason that all the Pat Kerneys in the world werent going to take us anywhere until Jay was ready to take us take us where we're going to go. Therefore, with that kind of uncertainty, it kind of makes sense to get a younger guy whose learning curve, more or less, coincides with that of our QB. Moss was injured last year and Im sure they wish he was further along but its not like they could have predicted the broken leg before drafting him. Not to mention, that we also hedged our bets by taking Crowder.

Pal, that's a bigtime whatif deal for me. Signing Kerney would have sent this franchise in a whole different direction. Could have been looking at a Div title this year. But, like somebody said if whatifs were fifths . . . ..

[TotallyScrewed]

not to mention short passing plays going for 6 ...... Champ i am not worried about , Bly well ... but 3 WR sets would scare the piss out of me

Exactly. Champ has the speed and smarts to play off the WR. Bly hasn't shown that he can do it AND he gambles on his tech. and doesn't wrap up. Foxworth is all talk so far.

3-wide is killing them.

[Cito Pelon]

I',m really excited for Robertson once the season starts. I have a feeling that we are going to see some things that we have not in preseason. More blitzing for sure. I heard on an interview with Champ that we are going to see some different things that he couldnt disclose. Some secret plays maybe?

Some over/under is all I can speculate at, that's about as much secret stuff there is that we haven't seen so far. Certainly there will be some blitzes since the base 4 except for Elvis can't provide pressure. My thinking is the D won't amount to spectacular, but they'll be adequate. They sure won't give up 409 points again.

[Atlas]

Meh, theres too much turmoil when there isnt instant gratification. It kind of made sense to draft Moss in that we also had a very young QB and you can reason that all the Pat Kerneys in the world werent going to take us anywhere until Jay was ready to take us take us where we're going to go. Therefore, with that kind of uncertainty, it kind of makes sense to get a younger guy whose learning curve, more or less, coincides with that of our QB. Moss was injured last year and Im sure they wish he was further along but its not like they could have predicted the broken leg before drafting him. Not to mention, that we also hedged our bets by taking Crowder.

The only reason Denver drafted Moss was because of Bates. Bates wanted light fast DEs and big fat DTs. Denver drafted Moss because he fit Bates' system Which, of course, Denver doesn't use anymore.

[Br0nc0Buster]

Weve done that with Moss...just like we used 1st round picks on CB and WR. Maybe we should just suck it up and get a free agent. It might be cheaper than rolling the dice in round one, let alone round one in possibly multiple drafts.

Dont look at Moss and say "that is what you get when you draft a defensive end in the first round."
Having to constantly rely on free agent rentals is for losers. The Colts, Pats, Steelers, and Chargers are not good because of free agents.

DE is too important to just plug in over the hill free agent vets, we need to get some young talent in there.
The Jarvis Moss pick was made out of desperation though.
I did not mind the Crowder pick at all, I am suprised to see him struggle the way he has.

It is a passing league now, which puts pass rushing ends at a premium.

[ShutDownPoster]

Dont look at Moss and say "that is what you get when you draft a defensive end in the first round."
Having to constantly rely on free agent rentals is for losers. The Colts, Pats, Steelers, and Chargers are not good because of free agents.

DE is too important to just plug in over the hill free agent vets, we need to get some young talent in there.
The Jarvis Moss pick was made out of desperation though.
I did not mind the Crowder pick at all, I am suprised to see him struggle the way he has.

It is a passing league now, which puts pass rushing ends at a premium.

Dungy, Bellicheat, Cower, Martyball - no surprise that the best defense drafting coaches are ALL defensive minds. And let's not forget Parcells drafted D. Ware.

[Br0nc0Buster]

Dungy, Bellicheat, Cower, Martyball - no surprise that the best defense drafting coaches are ALL defensive minds. And let's not forget Parcells drafted D. Ware.

Maybe there is a connection, but I am not sure.
I think Bill Polian and AJ Smith are very good GMs, they are the main reason for the talent IMO.

I am not sure how much influence Bellicheck and Cowher had on their team's drafts.

[elsid13]

Dungy, Bellicheat, Cower, Martyball - no surprise that the best defense drafting coaches are ALL defensive minds. And let's not forget Parcells drafted D. Ware.

It because they have a system they believe in and have kept over the year. Once the had that in place it was easy identify players that fit that system to be successful. It very similar to what Denver has done with it running game. Denver know what runner and linemen work will in and go get those guys.

Denver lack of commitment to any one defensive system hurts them come draft time.

[Mediator12]

It because they have a system they believe in and have kept over the year. Once the had that in place it was easy identify players that fit that system to be successful. It very similar to what Denver has done with it running game. Denver know what runner and linemen work will in and go get those guys.

Denver lack of commitment to any one defensive system hurts them come draft time.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.

It's amazing when you draft a player specifically to play within a system. INDY gets so much more out of draft scrubs because they are so good at replacing mediocre physical talent with younger mediocre physical talent. NE does this with their secondary, but ROUTINELY drafts DL early. PIT gets tweeners to fit their 3-4. The chargers just draft roid freaks on "D" ;D

[BroncoInferno]

I'm still going to say it is way too premature to make any judgements on the lineman from the '07 draft. Crowder played pretty well for a rookie last season, and it may be that he's one of those "gamer" types who show you more when the games count. Moss is still coming off a bad leg injury and as a result is still effectively a rookie based on number of games played. Thomas has of course give nthe most reason for optimism, but even in the case of optimism I think it is best to give these guys a few regular season games before declaring them failures (or even a success).

[Smiling Assassin27]

If our DT's don't get some sacks, this DL will not get them, plain and simple. Elvis will get his, but once he is doubled, we hav nobody on the other side to make an impact. It will be up to Robertson and Thomas to get sacks...and relying on DT's for sacks is a bad way to fly, unless we're gonna blitz the crap outta teams all game long.

[Mediator12]

If our DT's don't get some sacks, this DL will not get them, plain and simple. Elvis will get his, but once he is doubled, we hav nobody on the other side to make an impact. It will be up to Robertson and Thomas to get sacks...and relying on DT's for sacks is a bad way to fly, unless we're gonna blitz the crap outta teams all game long.

DT's do not usually get a lot of sacks. They just do not as protection schemes realize the quickest way to the QB is right up the middle. What DEN's DT's have been horrible in doing is getting a push in the middle so the QB can not step up away from the DE's on the edge.

The DT's just can not gain ground up the middle, or penetrate past the inside protection. That is the problem inside. Hopefully, some inventive Blitzing scheme will develop to force pressure on the QB as the front four has not shown the ability to do that since 2003.

[Popps]

DT's do not usually get a lot of sacks. They just do not as protection schemes realize the quickest way to the QB is right up the middle. What DEN's DT's have been horrible in doing is getting a push in the middle so the QB can not step up away from the DE's on the edge.

The DT's just can not gain ground up the middle, or penetrate past the inside protection. That is the problem inside. Hopefully, some inventive Blitzing scheme will develop to force pressure on the QB as the front four has not shown the ability to do that since 2003.

I do think Robertson will help in this regard. He'll definitely require a double-team, which should allow Thomas the opportunity for some one on ones. If you think of last season, there wasn't a single guy that ever required two blockers aside from Dumervil on passing downs.
In a passing situation... with both of those two in there and someone coming on a blitz, maybe we're more effective than we were last year. That's an optimistic outlook.

That said, as long as Engleberger is lined up on any down where a team could pass, we're still going to have problems. I know I harp on that, but it's literally like playing a 3-4 defense... without the 4 part. He barely requires blocking on passing downs. That's 1/4th of our defensive line absolutely useless on any given long-yardage play.

[alkemical]

Point:

Engleberger - ya - you know what he isn't good. But don't take your hate out on him - the team doesn't have anyone else to start in place of him.

[Popps]

Point:

Engleberger - ya - you know what he isn't good. But don't take your hate out on him - the team doesn't have anyone else to start in place of him.

"Hate" is a silly word to use on a football board.

That said, I'll agree that the staff is to blame, here. Engleberger is what he is... a back-up, try-hard guy. That's fine. Keep him as a back-up. The staff should be held accountable for not being able to field a legitimate starter at the position.

That said, it still doesn't take away the reality that as long as he's 1/4th of our D-line, we're playing with a sever handicap.

Sweet god help us if anything happens to Dumervil.

[Rohirrim]

"Hate" is a silly word to use on a football board.

That said, I'll agree that the staff is to blame, here. Engleberger is what he is... a back-up, try-hard guy. That's fine. Keep him as a back-up. The staff should be held accountable for not being able to field a legitimate starter at the position.

That said, it still doesn't take away the reality that as long as he's 1/4th of our D-line, we're playing with a sever handicap.

Sweet god help us if anything happens to Dumervil.

Don't even say that.

[Bob]

I will say this... with Robertson, Thomas and Dumevril situationally... if we could add one play-maker at DE this off-season, we might be onto something next year.

Again, makes you wonder if Jason Taylor might have been worth going after. Not to re-fuel the debate, but a legitimate DE would make a huge difference for this team right now.

Hopefully next year we get serious. I have to give Shanahan credit for drafting a couple of guys... they're just both a long way from making any kind of difference.

Again, guys like Pryce and Dumevervil showed major flashes their rookie seasons. I've yet to see any from Moss/Crowder... but we'll see.

Agreed -- at least Shanny sees it and each off season is drafting or getting folks like Robertson. I am still optimistic about Moss...its hard for me to understand why a guy cant gain weight -- its perhaps the easiest thing to do...;)

[Popps]

Agreed -- at least Shanny sees it and each off season is drafting or getting folks like Robertson. I am still optimistic about Moss...its hard for me to understand why a guy cant gain weight -- its perhaps the easiest thing to do...;)

I really think we're one DE away from being fairly effective up front. That's why I think you're seeing some frustration around here with the 2nd year players. (Justified or not.)

I'm also a little bummed we didn't see more from Ekuban in the pre-season. Maybe he's still regaining strength. When healthy, he's fairly effective.

[elsid13]

I really think we're one DE away from being fairly effective up front. That's why I think you're seeing some frustration around here with the 2nd year players. (Justified or not.)

I'm also a little bummed we didn't see more from Ekuban in the pre-season. Maybe he's still regaining strength. When healthy, he's fairly effective.

I doubt Ekuban make the final cut.

[Cito Pelon]

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.

It's amazing when you draft a player specifically to play within a system. INDY gets so much more out of draft scrubs because they are so good at replacing mediocre physical talent with younger mediocre physical talent. NE does this with their secondary, but ROUTINELY drafts DL early. PIT gets tweeners to fit their 3-4. The chargers just draft roid freaks on "D" ;D

Yeah, I have to buy into that.

[Cito Pelon]

DT's do not usually get a lot of sacks. They just do not as protection schemes realize the quickest way to the QB is right up the middle. What DEN's DT's have been horrible in doing is getting a push in the middle so the QB can not step up away from the DE's on the edge.

The DT's just can not gain ground up the middle, or penetrate past the inside protection. That is the problem inside. Hopefully, some inventive Blitzing scheme will develop to force pressure on the QB as the front four has not shown the ability to do that since 2003.

Yeah, agreed. Just a little penetration here and there, or moving a man out of the way for a blitz to be effective would be helpful.