decent piece on Crowder/Moss

[Broncosmang]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/aug/20/broncos-moss-crowder-make-progress/

[Man-Goblin]

They just need to let the D-line loose this year!

[Spider]

...........I think they will catch on

[Spider]

They just need to let the D-line loose this year!

;D i have a different philosophy , I want the d line to keep the backers clean .. perhaps your way is better ...... at this point with our Backers i just dont know yet

[2KBack]

A nice article emphasizing the importance of patience with young Dlineman, and of course the comment section is full idiots.

[Broncosmang]

A nice article emphasizing the importance of patience with young Dlineman, and of course the comment section is full idiots.

Agreed. Moss has a half a season and Crowder was hurt all preseason. I'll wait until the end of the year to declare them busts.

[Popps]

"The thing with Tim is, I'm sure starting to see some flashes," Johnson said

I'd like to see some. Same for Moss.

I get that this stuff takes time, but it didn't take Dumervil this long. Generally, when guys have above average talent, it's almost hard for them to hide it. It's not that they won't have a learning curve.... but you see big flashes of greatness from time to time. With Moss/Crowder... we're still waiting.

[Spider]

"The thing with Tim is, I'm sure starting to see some flashes," Johnson said

I'd like to see some. Same for Moss.

I get that this stuff takes time, but it didn't take Dumervil this long. Generally, when guys have above average talent, it's almost hard for them to hide it. It's not that they won't have a learning curve.... but you see big flashes of greatness from time to time. With Moss/Crowder... we're still waiting.

depends , I think with Moss and Crowder, they are trying to be more of every down players while Dooooooom is a pass rushing specialist

[Inkana7]

Dumervil had above average pass-rushing technique coming out of college. Moss on the other hand was just a physical freak at Florida and didn't have to develop technique like Doom did.

[Popps]

depends , I think with Moss and Crowder, they are trying to be more of every down players while Dooooooom is a pass rushing specialist

True. Dumervil's football instincts are just so obvious. Not just rushing the passer, but finding his way to the ball, etc. Given, he can be handled against the run. But, the point remains.

Hopefully one of those two (or both) pan out. We desperately need playmakers on the ends... not warm bodies like Engleberger.

[Willynowei]

Crowder's burst off the line has looked awesome this entire preseason, i always thought he was supposed to be the slow one? he's extremely athletic, he needs to be more consistent.

Moss on the other hand needs to play faster out there. He needs to be more aggressive and less tentative.

Both guys are however, getting there, I want to see them in the starting lineup soon.

[Spider]

True. Dumervil's football instincts are just so obvious. Not just rushing the passer, but finding his way to the ball, etc. Given, he can be handled against the run. But, the point remains.

Hopefully one of those two (or both) pan out. We desperately need playmakers on the ends... not warm bodies like Engleberger.

;D I worded my post wrong no doubt .... never should have put depends , bad choice on my part , what i meant to say is , i think they are trying to develop into more of complete players

[Br0nc0Buster]

Well I hope Jarvis can "get it" sometime this year.

But I have my doubts about him, I mean he could of just been a product of that Florida defensive line.

They had Derrick Harvey, Ray McDonald, Steven Harris, and Marcus Thomas(before he was suspended) along with Moss.
It is not too hard to be a good player on a line that is stacked like that.

[2KBack]

Well I hope Jarvis can "get it" sometime this year.

But I have my doubts about him, I mean he could of just been a product of that Florida defensive line.

They had Derrick Harvey, Ray McDonald, Steven Harris, and Marcus Thomas(before he was suspended) along with Moss.
It is not too hard to be a good player on a line that is stacked like that.

Eh, maybe, but Moss stood out on that line.

[Willynowei]

"The thing with Tim is, I'm sure starting to see some flashes," Johnson said

I'd like to see some. Same for Moss.

I get that this stuff takes time, but it didn't take Dumervil this long. Generally, when guys have above average talent, it's almost hard for them to hide it. It's not that they won't have a learning curve.... but you see big flashes of greatness from time to time. With Moss/Crowder... we're still waiting.

Yeah but its not really a talent thing as much as it is a mental one.

Crowder and Moss are both more talented than Doom and even a guy like Michael Strahan. Strahan is probably the best example of a guy who was drafted real low b/c of lack of "talent" and might go down as the best D-linemen to play in the past decade.

The problem is D-linemen are generally soft. They are definitely at a position where you don't have this urgency to rip the other guys head off. They don't collide hard with anyone their size, whereas linebackers constantly collide with bigger fellows and same sized ones - runningbacks at high speeds. In the NFL most defensive ends have the athleticism but few go nuts untill the whistle is blown. Its also why Warren Sapp said something to the extent that Courtney Brown had the body of a lion but the heart ant or something like that...

So i don't think its as much about hiding or showing off talent as it is about developing a very aggressive mental state. You can tell thats whats holding Moss back right now, he can get off the ball much faster and punch the O-linemen much harder than he is right now. He's playing too controlled. i need to see more relentlessness.

You watch Javon Kearse in his rookie season, kid was not strong at all but he consistantly knocked back big strong O-linemen with one club to the face after another. He was just nasty, and if you got in his way, he'd **** your ribs up or something. I want to see more of that dirty, nasty, relentless, I wanna to kill your mother type of attitude from Moss. THen, he'll be successful, IMHO. :)

[telluride]

Maybe I'm being overly tough on these guys, but this purportedly "decent" piece on Moss/Crowder makes me even more depressed about their chances. It's essentially allowing their coaches to lay the groundwork for accepting them as situational role players, at best. Moss has apparently peaked at 245 which means he's not going to be able to overpower linemen. And his signature move -- using speed to get to a deep drop QB -- doesn't translate well to the pros, where QBs use their pockets better than in college. So we used our #1 and #2 to get two rotational/back-up DEs. That's not good.

Oh that we had packaged those picks for Willis.

[Kaylore]

People are going to miss Lee Rasizer when he's gone. The guy works.

[Kaylore]

Maybe I'm being overly tough on these guys, but this purportedly "decent" piece on Moss/Crowder makes me even more depressed about their chances. It's essentially allowing their coaches to lay the groundwork for accepting them as situational role players, at best. Moss has apparently peaked at 245 which means he's not going to be able to overpower linemen. And his signature move -- using speed to get to a deep drop QB -- doesn't translate well to the pros, where QBs use their pockets better than in college. So we used our #1 and #2 to get two rotational/back-up DEs. That's not good.

Oh that we had packaged those picks for Willis.

Weren't you the same person declaring Ryan Harris a bust after the Texans game? I share your criticisms of this organizations inability to draft defensive players, but let's not close the book on Moss and Crowder before it's over.

[epicSocialism4tw]

"The thing with Tim is, I'm sure starting to see some flashes," Johnson said

I'd like to see some. Same for Moss.

I get that this stuff takes time, but it didn't take Dumervil this long. Generally, when guys have above average talent, it's almost hard for them to hide it. It's not that they won't have a learning curve.... but you see big flashes of greatness from time to time. With Moss/Crowder... we're still waiting.

I just watched some games from the middle of last season, and there are some things to be at least encouraged about.

It's hard to tell because the Bates experiment was such a failure, as was compounded by the undisciplined and inexperienced play of such a young DL.

Moss made some nice plays in the run game and at times was able to put his tackle in a bad way. He is a legit 2-way DE. At the same time, he was resigned to playing to the strengths of the opponent because of his unfamilarity with the NFL. Tackles could set him up and knock him down if he didnt get off quickly and get leverage to get around. He really needs to learn an array of hand techniques to maximize his speed off the line, and he needs to be able to better read a play so that it at least takes some effort to neutralize him.

Thomas should be a legit NFL starter this season. His combo of speed and power is rare, and he started to put things together mentally about midseason. He is able to get into the backfield with quickness or power, is able to engage the OL-men and hold his gap on run plays. Out of the three, I think that he will contribute the most this season.

[Br0nc0Buster]

yeah it made me a bit concerned when Jarvis said he thought he played good last game.
Said his was like fundamentally sound or something and according to the tape he did his job.

It sounds like he is satisfied with being mediecore......:kiddingme

[2KBack]

Maybe I'm being overly tough on these guys, but this purportedly "decent" piece on Moss/Crowder makes me even more depressed about their chances. It's essentially allowing their coaches to lay the groundwork for accepting them as situational role players, at best. Moss has apparently peaked at 245 which means he's not going to be able to overpower linemen. And his signature move -- using speed to get to a deep drop QB -- doesn't translate well to the pros, where QBs use their pockets better than in college. So we used our #1 and #2 to get two rotational/back-up DEs. That's not good.

Oh that we had packaged those picks for Willis.

http://helen20ny.tripod.com/raining-eyore.gif

[Drek]

Well I hope Jarvis can "get it" sometime this year.

But I have my doubts about him, I mean he could of just been a product of that Florida defensive line.

They had Derrick Harvey, Ray McDonald, Steven Harris, and Marcus Thomas(before he was suspended) along with Moss.
It is not too hard to be a good player on a line that is stacked like that.

Moss was a standout on that line, not a role player who racked up stats thanks to favorable matchups, and he was a premier recruit coming out of high school.

The talent is legit.

Something I've mentioned on this board before but seems could use repeating in this thread is a bit on where our three young DEs all respectively come from.

Dumervil was a big fish in a small pond in college, a pass rushing stud in high school who chose his university based on where they'd let him stay at DE. His game is a combination of heady football instincts that bely his age and highly refined technique. He doesn't overpower or out run, he out thinks and out maneuvers his opposition. He slid in the draft because of weaker physical measurables but he was polished far beyond his years and has the pass rusher intangibles that let him step in and have an immediate impact.

Jarvis Moss missed a ton of time in college due to a freak injury that also lead to significant weight loss. He then left a year early. He's an athletic marvel but he is only now rounding into his true physical form and at the same time his technique was not honed to a high level while in college. He wasn't the kind of prospect who delivers an immediate payoff, but down the road could be an elite talent.

Tim Crowder is a physical beast but unfortunately went to UT, probably the single worst collegiate program at actually developing defensive players (or most any position period). Too often the UT mindset is to draft elite athletes from within their own state (where they are abundant) and then just put them on the field and let them make plays. Despite being a three year starter Crowder was never required to develop high end technique and fundamentals. He's got good football instincts especially a strong nose for the ball, but he lacks the fundamentals to be a consistent player. That is why last year we saw a nice mid-season burst from him but it faded down the stretch. He doesn't have the sound fundamental base to perform consistently at this point. Like Moss though, down the road he can develop that and be a standout player.

We took two exceptional talents who were both under prepared for the NFL in terms of the technical merits of their game. They have that weakness for different reasons, but we need to be patient and watch the two of them develop and grow for a bit longer than your average draftee to see the payoff.

[bombquixote]

I just watched some games from the middle of last season, and there are some things to be at least encouraged about.

It's hard to tell because the Bates experiment was such a failure, as was compounded by the undisciplined and inexperienced play of such a young DL.

Moss made some nice plays in the run game and at times was able to put his tackle in a bad way. He is a legit 2-way DE. At the same time, he was resigned to playing to the strengths of the opponent because of his unfamilarity with the NFL. Tackles could set him up and knock him down if he didnt get off quickly and get leverage to get around. He really needs to learn an array of hand techniques to maximize his speed off the line, and he needs to be able to better read a play so that it at least takes some effort to neutralize him.

Thomas should be a legit NFL starter this season. His combo of speed and power is rare, and he started to put things together mentally about midseason. He is able to get into the backfield with quickness or power, is able to engage the OL-men and hold his gap on run plays. Out of the three, I think that he will contribute the most this season.

Bingo. We haven't yet seen what either of these two can or can't do, given Bates' scheme and Moss's injury. We'll have a much better idea come week five or so. I for one remain optimistic.

[telluride]

Weren't you the same person declaring Ryan Harris a bust after the Texans game? I share your criticisms of this organizations inability to draft defensive players, but let's not close the book on Moss and Crowder before it's over.

True. Which is why I qualified the post with "Maybe." And I hope both Moss and Crowder grow into bigger role players, because we need them to.

[telluride]

Moss was a standout on that line, not a role player who racked up stats thanks to favorable matchups, and he was a premier recruit coming out of high school.

The talent is legit.

Something I've mentioned on this board before but seems could use repeating in this thread is a bit on where our three young DEs all respectively come from.

Dumervil was a big fish in a small pond in college, a pass rushing stud in high school who chose his university based on where they'd let him stay at DE. His game is a combination of heady football instincts that bely his age and highly refined technique. He doesn't overpower or out run, he out thinks and out maneuvers his opposition. He slid in the draft because of weaker physical measurables but he was polished far beyond his years and has the pass rusher intangibles that let him step in and have an immediate impact.

Jarvis Moss missed a ton of time in college due to a freak injury that also lead to significant weight loss. He then left a year early. He's an athletic marvel but he is only now rounding into his true physical form and at the same time his technique was not honed to a high level while in college. He wasn't the kind of prospect who delivers an immediate payoff, but down the road could be an elite talent.

Tim Crowder is a physical beast but unfortunately went to UT, probably the single worst collegiate program at actually developing defensive players (or most any position period). Too often the UT mindset is to draft elite athletes from within their own state (where they are abundant) and then just put them on the field and let them make plays. Despite being a three year starter Crowder was never required to develop high end technique and fundamentals. He's got good football instincts especially a strong nose for the ball, but he lacks the fundamentals to be a consistent player. That is why last year we saw a nice mid-season burst from him but it faded down the stretch. He doesn't have the sound fundamental base to perform consistently at this point. Like Moss though, down the road he can develop that and be a standout player.

We took two exceptional talents who were both under prepared for the NFL in terms of the technical merits of their game. They have that weakness for different reasons, but we need to be patient and watch the two of them develop and grow for a bit longer than your average draftee to see the payoff.

Good post. And gets me wondering why Moss and Crowder just don't camp out with Elvis and learn some technique from him.

I think most of our frustrations with these two is that they are underperforming based on their draft position and the team's situation. If we were the Giants, then, sure, draft some prospects who might pay off for you 3-4 years after the draft. But the Broncos -- a team with critical issues on defense -- perhaps should have used their top two picks on players who could begin to contribute immediately. (Like Willis. Have I mentioned I wanted Willis?)

[2KBack]

Good post. And gets me wondering why Moss and Crowder just don't camp out with Elvis and learn some technique from him.

I think most of our frustrations with these two is that they are underperforming based on their draft position and the team's situation. If we were the Giants, then, sure, draft some prospects who might pay off for you 3-4 years after the draft. But the Broncos -- a team with critical issues on defense -- perhaps should have used their top two picks on players who could begin to contribute immediately. (Like Willis. Have I mentioned I wanted Willis?)

that wouldn't do anything to fix the d-line, which was the biggest weakness on the defense. A linebacker can come in as a rookie and have an immediate impact, 90% of Defensive lineman do not. The investment needed to be made or we were looking at a much longer wait for a successful defense.

[colonelbeef]

I don't see how people are down on Crowder whatsoever, the guy had a solid year last year, and should be a fixture on the line for years to come. You can't expect Reggie White with every single draft pick. Crowder is a two way DE who can pressure the QB, what else could you possibly expect with a 2nd round draft choice?

[azbroncfan]

not warm bodies like Engleberger.

Totally untrue. John Engleberger is the hardest working player on the team. ;)

I laugh when that is as good of defense excuse people can come up for him lacking playmaking ability.

[fdf]

""As far as Jarvis and Tim go, everybody arrives at different times," Johnson said. "The thing I'm always concerned about is if they're not moving towards the right direction. And evaluation takes time - you don't know if they are or they aren't. But the process I'm in right now is, I still think that they're young players with talent moving in the right direction."

That's about as lukewarm an endorsement by a coach as I have ever heard.

[Popps]

Totally untrue. John Engleberger is the hardest working player on the team. ;)

I laugh when that is as good of defense excuse people can come up for him lacking playmaking ability.


:spit:

Seriously.

It's nothing personal. I'm sure he's a wonderful human being and attends all practices regularly and with the proper amount of preparation and enthusiasm.

The dude just can't play. He's overmatched on every single play. I basically watch all of these games once... and then watch them again, just watching the D-line. You just have to wonder if the staff is doing the same. He's forced immediately to the ground on running plays, with the exception of plays that happen to funnel right at him. On passing downs, forget it. One blocker easily handles him. He rarely gets much past the LOS.

You don't go three years (about 1/3 as a starter) and only rack up 2 sacks on accident.

He's really that bad.

[skpac1001]

Seems to me even if they both workout, we need to put another fairly high pick into DE next year. If one or both bust, its obviously a good idea, but if it takes 3+ years for a DE to develope, and they both turn out to be starters, 4 years from now one at least will be gone or injured and it would be nice to have a player who has already been seasoned to take over so we don't have to wait for production again.

[chrisp]

This makes me laugh. So we should can our rookies for not starting already? And replace them with WHAT exactly?

It usually takes 2-3 years to see if you actually have anything when you draft for the d-line, the only reason we might get a starter our of Thomas this year is because he was always top-10 talent who slipped for off-the-field reasons. Harris is supposedly ahead of Moss and Crowder but he hasn't played in a real game yet so let's not say he's arrived just yet...

The idea that they are 'only situational' players is laughable. ALL d-linemen start off as situational players and then progress to a starting role, so it they're doing that they're right on schedule. Moss needs to bring us some sacks becuase he's on the Nickel defense, but apart from that we shouldn't expect to see them emerge as legit starters untill later in the season.

Thing is as well, sometimes players don't really show it untill gameday, just like some players practice well and then disappear when it counts. Both players contributed last year, and showed they have some some ability to play in real games, and that's usually the only way young players really claim a starting spot: on sunday, not in camp or preseason. It may be hard to accept but this is only the warmup, and we won't really be able to guage where these guys are truly at untill we get to see how much playing time they're getting.

[Atlas]

I don't see how people are down on Crowder whatsoever, the guy had a solid year last year, and should be a fixture on the line for years to come. You can't expect Reggie White with every single draft pick. Crowder is a two way DE who can pressure the QB, what else could you possibly expect with a 2nd round draft choice?

I agree. I was very impressed with how Crowder played last year. In no way should he be lumped in with the speculation of Moss. I think Crowder has already proved to be a pretty solid 2nd round draft pick.

[zdoor]

Both could turn out to be bust but they are still raw especially moss....

But a half page down is a post full of whining about how we traded Hixon and didn't give him time to develop.....

I guess there is no way to please everyone

[Inkana7]

Both could turn out to be bust but they are still raw especially moss....

But a half page down is a post full of whining about how we traded Hixon and didn't give him time to develop.....

I guess there is no way to please everyone

Take note of this post.

[Rock Chalk]

Eh, maybe, but Moss stood out on that line.

Agreed. Those other guys were good, but Moss was the one that stood out more than any other.

[bronco0608]

At least we are losing out with some high end draft picks instead of the riff-rafs that we have been playing for, oh I don't know, the past 10 years.

By no stretch of the imagination were Moss and Crowder selected above where they were suppose to go.

[summerdenver]

Yeah but its not really a talent thing as much as it is a mental one.

Crowder and Moss are both more talented than Doom and even a guy like Michael Strahan. Strahan is probably the best example of a guy who was drafted real low b/c of lack of "talent" and might go down as the best D-linemen to play in the past decade.

The problem is D-linemen are generally soft. They are definitely at a position where you don't have this urgency to rip the other guys head off. They don't collide hard with anyone their size, whereas linebackers constantly collide with bigger fellows and same sized ones - runningbacks at high speeds. In the NFL most defensive ends have the athleticism but few go nuts untill the whistle is blown. Its also why Warren Sapp said something to the extent that Courtney Brown had the body of a lion but the heart ant or something like that...

So i don't think its as much about hiding or showing off talent as it is about developing a very aggressive mental state. You can tell thats whats holding Moss back right now, he can get off the ball much faster and punch the O-linemen much harder than he is right now. He's playing too controlled. i need to see more relentlessness.

You watch Javon Kearse in his rookie season, kid was not strong at all but he consistantly knocked back big strong O-linemen with one club to the face after another. He was just nasty, and if you got in his way, he'd **** your ribs up or something. I want to see more of that dirty, nasty, relentless, I wanna to kill your mother type of attitude from Moss. THen, he'll be successful, IMHO. :)

I am no expert on schemes by any means but I was surprised to see that we are getting better pressure with 3 line men as opposed to our base 4-3. Is it possible that it is because in that formation, DL are asked to just rush the passer and not to think of anything else(ala Freeny)?

On the other hand, it seems like in the base set, the DL are trying to not give running lanes first and stay disciplined. Our best options for pass rush in that case would be blitzes and forcing the opp to obvious passing situations.