Defensive Scheme

[Mediator12]

I grilled Oskie on how the Broncos were lining up on defense this year. Based on his recollection, the personnel usuage, the lining up of the Sam on the LOS often, and the overall aggressive nature of the DL it seems Slowik is going to go back to a 4-3 over/under front. This front is an aggressive speed penetrating one gap system. Think INDY and Tampa Bay fronts.

There are several concerns for me. One is how well the Mike can engage the second level blocking in the running game and therefore keep the trash out of DJ's way at Will. Niko and Nate scare me with this. This is a consistency position and both are starters by default, not by talent and skill. Two, The LB's holding their gaps against OL on the first level. Boss Bailey is not a big Sam to play the C gap against a good blocking TE. Neither Niko or Nate are solid shedding blocks, let Alone getting trapped in the backside A gap versus a pulling guard or a slanting T.

For the guys who can go to camp, I have a few requests to watch. Now, I know most people just want to see how each individual players "LOOKS" at each practice. However, I want to see how they are changing things on defense. Specifically, what is their base package going to look like and how is the personnel suited to it.

1. How are the LB's lining up presnap? Are they 4 yards off the LOS, is the SAM routinely over the STRONG side (TE mostly) and press coverage close, and does the Middle LB drop deep in coverage when its a pass.

2. How is the secondary lining up presnap? Are they varying the distance at CB? IS the SS walking up into the box right before the snap? Is the FS deeper than the SS at the snap and is he playing one side or deep middle on passing plays.

3. How much zone versus man to man coverage do you see. Guesstimate a percentage like 40% man, 60% zone.

It would really be helpful to me so I can refine what to watch in the first preseason game and assess what is their base package and how are they going to play sub-packages.

Thanks for all your help. Wish I could get away for several days and do this again. Maybe next year!

[2KBack]

From everything I've read Niko's strength is in the running game, taking on blockers/shedding blockers. That sounds like exactly what you are looking for.

[BroncoInferno]

Med, I' curious about your opinion on Niko. You seem to have some authoritative opinions on him, but it seems to me he never got enough of a chance in Seattle to really form any firm opinions. His former LB coach seemed to have a very high opinion of him, but of course that could just be fluff piece stuff. Not saying your wrong, just curious about what you are using for your analysis on him.

[Mediator12]

Med, I' curious about your opinion on Niko. You seem to have some authoritative opinions on him, but it seems to me he never got enough of a chance in Seattle to really form any firm opinions. His former LB coach seemed to have a very high opinion of him, but of course that could just be fluff piece stuff. Not saying your wrong, just curious about what you are using for your analysis on him.

My opinion is solely based on him not being experienced as a Mike and playing within a system that will make it very difficult on him off the ball. I reserve the right to change that once I see him be a consistent player on the field, excepet that would be around game 4. Right now, I am just worried that DEN does not have the key cogs in the running game and that the DT's are going to get abused at the POA in a power running game like KC, SD, and others on the schedule.

Consistency is from being experienced and talented enough to execute the play in front of you. I am worried DEN is going to get gouged up the middle again, until proven otherwise. This Scheme is very good against the pass, but if the DL get smoked at the POA it is very susceptible to the run again.

[socalorado]

My opinion is solely based on him not being experienced as a Mike and playing within a system that will make it very difficult on him off the ball. I reserve the right to change that once I see him be a consistent player on the field, excepet that would be around game 4. Right now, I am just worried that DEN does not have the key cogs in the running game and that the DT's are going to get abused at the POA in a power running game like KC, SD, and others on the schedule.

Consistency is from being experienced and talented enough to execute the play in front of you. I am worried DEN is going to get gouged up the middle again, until proven otherwise. This Scheme is very good against the pass, but if the DL get smoked at the POA it is very susceptible to the run again.

This is also my concern. Especially considering the DEN just lost their rookie DT for the year. You know, the guy who specifically shut down the run in college? Powell.
Now what?
I am hoping larsen steps up at MIKE, but that is a big step for a rookie. Apparently he is a extremely hard working, smart guy, so who knows.
I think DEN is going to have to make a trade for another rotational DT or else.

[TheReverend]

So far every report from camp has echoed my suspiscions on what the defense would be and what we had discussions about earlier in the off-season. So from that trend, we can assume the answers to your questions:

1. It certainly seems to be over/under and I'm positive a plain base will be involved. So sometimes Boss will be down on the LOS and sometimes he'll be off. It'd be silly to be running a base 5 man front even with a 4th linebacker (Lynch) on the field.

2. Slowik's the old DB coach, so you can be certain he's using old coverage techniques. Champ and Dre will still be playing off, probably that same 7-9 yard cushion we've grown accustomed to and lean on their closing speed. One S WILL be in the box on first down at MINIMUM. There's really no need to differentiate between free and strong in today's game. They'll continue to use Hamza's range as a rover type and Lynch's heady play as a robber or just plain OLB.

3. This I'd like to know too, because it will give us a great read on the blitz % and how heavy the blitz is. My favorite Coyer times were 2004 and earlier when we played a great deal of press coverage... the picks weren't coming but the pressure and incompletions were.

As for Niko, screw him. Either him or Nate will be able to handle 2 down duties in this de-emphasized MLB defense, and if neither are capable of sealing an A gap, then they have no business being in this league.

[Kaylore]

Reverend has also asked me this and I will do my best to pay attention to it next Saturday, Med. They are going back to the front the did before, a 3 and 1 tech and sometimes even a 2i 1i on different downs and distances. It's much tighter inside. They also are playing the tackles to penetrate more than engage blocks now. There was quite a few blitz packages we saw during the install. I wouldn't say that Boss plays on the line a lot, but they did like to use his speed and move him around quite a bit. On one play they moved Bly to safety and put Foxworth as the number two corner. The coverages are typical Slowik with the corners five to seven yards off angled to peek into the QB. They ran some zone and man.

Anyway, while I lack your expertise and eye for the defense, I'll do my best to see what they're doing on what down and distance. I'll keep you posted.

[Mediator12]

So far every report from camp has echoed my suspiscions on what the defense would be and what we had discussions about earlier in the off-season. So from that trend, we can assume the answers to your questions:

1. It certainly seems to be over/under and I'm positive a plain base will be involved. So sometimes Boss will be down on the LOS and sometimes he'll be off. It'd be silly to be running a base 5 man front even with a 4th linebacker (Lynch) on the field.

2. Slowik's the old DB coach, so you can be certain he's using old coverage techniques. Champ and Dre will still be playing off, probably that same 7-9 yard cushion we've grown accustomed to and lean on their closing speed. One S WILL be in the box on first down at MINIMUM. There's really no need to differentiate between free and strong in today's game. They'll continue to use Hamza's range as a rover type and Lynch's heady play as a robber or just plain OLB.

3. This I'd like to know too, because it will give us a great read on the blitz % and how heavy the blitz is. My favorite Coyer times were 2004 and earlier when we played a great deal of press coverage... the picks weren't coming but the pressure and incompletions were.

As for Niko, screw him. Either him or Nate will be able to handle 2 down duties in this de-emphasized MLB defense, and if neither are capable of sealing an A gap, then they have no business being in this league.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of that Rev, but I need to see what they are tweaking. I know they are Blitzing a dirtload from their base and nickle packages early, which means they will probably blitz a high percentage of time versus the league.

Nate had trouble sealing that backside A gap in TB, and therefore he is here. Niko better be able to seal that so DJ can get free to make the play.

It will be apparent in how they change what they do in camp versus the vanilla basic they run in the Preseason. That is why I want some first hand knowledge of tendencies in TC. Comparing those to their crap vanilla will show what to expect out of the gate.

[TheReverend]

Yeah, I agree with a lot of that Rev, but I need to see what they are tweaking. I know they are Blitzing a dirtload from their base and nickle packages early, which means they will probably blitz a high percentage of time versus the league.

Nate had trouble sealing that backside A gap in TB, and therefore he is here. Niko better be able to seal that so DJ can get free to make the play.

It will be apparent in how they change what they do in camp versus the vanilla basic they run in the Preseason. That is why I want some first hand knowledge of tendencies in TC. Comparing those to their crap vanilla will show what to expect out of the gate.

Have a little faith but be MASSIVELY prepared to get GOUGED in draws and screens on 3rd and 5.

Our personnel seems tailor made for a one gap system.

[TheReverend]

Honestly, it is very sad that a thread this involved and insightful with serious opportunity for genuine football discussion and learning is ignored for Bob's attention whore thread...

[BroncoInferno]

Especially considering the DEN just lost their rookie DT for the year. You know, the guy who specifically shut down the run in college? Powell.

Did Powell get hurt? I haven't heard anything about this.

[2KBack]

Honestly, it is very sad that a thread this involved and insightful with serious opportunity for genuine football discussion and learning is ignored for Bob's attention whore thread...

it's bit over the head of guys like me who don't understand Defensive gap responsibilities

[socalorado]

Did Powell get hurt? I haven't heard anything about this.

"popped" his achilles 5 seconds into camp.
Gone for the year.

[Beantown Bronco]

Have a little faith but be MASSIVELY prepared to get GOUGED in draws and screens on 3rd and 5.

Our personnel seems tailor made for a one gap system.

Funny you should mention that. This was the primary concern throughout camp and pre-season last year under the Bates system.

[BroncoInferno]

"popped" his achilles 5 seconds into camp.
Gone for the year.

Great. It's a shame too because I think he would have proven to be a valuable rotational guy.

[socalorado]

Honestly, it is very sad that a thread this involved and insightful with serious opportunity for genuine football discussion and learning is ignored for Bob's attention whore thread...

DEN is going to have HUGE issues up the middle of the defense. I mean if Niko can't do his job, DEN is screwed considering that DEN is in the same situation it was last year at DT.
Robertson is here. Great, one guy cant play every down. Thomas is good too, but jeez, after that, DEN is just going to get GOUGED up front for huge chunks of yardage. I thought Powell would ba a perfect fit for Robertson in stopping the run, and allowing a guy like Niko to make his assigments, but now McKinleys going to play next to Robertson and Thomas and Mallard are paired together!?!?!? or Peterson!?!
How do you see the pairings at DT?
And i have been reading up a little on the UNIV OF ARIZ defense, and they seem to run a similiar style of attack, of course its college, but i think Larsen's abilities just might fit in well at MIKE. Dude is a tackle machine. He just needs to learn his gaps and responsibilities. (famous last words!)

[cmhargrove]

DEN is going to have HUGE issues up the middle of the defense. I mean if Niko can't do his job, DEN is screwed considering that DEN is in the same situation it was last year at DT.
Robertson is here. Great, one guy cant play every down. Thomas is good too, but jeez, after that, DEN is just going to get GOUGED up front for huge chunks of yardage. I thought Powell would ba a perfect fit for Robertson in stopping the run, and allowing a guy like Niko to make his assigments, but now McKinleys going to play next to Robertson and Thomas and Mallard are paired together!?!?!? or Peterson!?!
How do you see the pairings at DT?
And i have been reading up a little on the UNIV OF ARIZ defense, and they seem to run a similiar style of attack, of course its college, but i think Larsen's abilities just might fit in well at MIKE. Dude is a tackle machine. He just needs to learn his gaps and responsibilities. (famous last words!)

Isn't it a little early to decide we will get "gouged in the middle?"

I mean, they are just starting out at TC. So far, Mallard has been filling in at DT, but last year he played some end as well. If we wanted to get stout against the run ("sell out" per say), we could put Robertson and Thomas in the middle, and line Mallard and Ekuban up at DE. That would be a pretty powerful run-stopping group. Then, we could take advantage of our speed at LB, and in the secondary. Just a thought...

[socalorado]

Isn't it a little early to decide we will get "gouged in the middle?"

I mean, they are just starting out at TC. So far, Mallard has been filling in at DT, but last year he played some end as well. If we wanted to get stout against the run ("sell out" per say), we could put Robertson and Thomas in the middle, and line Mallard and Ekuban up at DE. That would be a pretty powerful run-stopping group. Then, we could take advantage of our speed at LB, and in the secondary. Just a thought...

1st off no one knows if Ekuban is back to his above average self, and second i am not so sure Robertson and Thomas next to each other really is the best fit. Whos gonna play on the downs when they are not in there?
McKinley and Peterson!?!?! Jeez, so we get GOUGED on those downs.
Great line Mallard up at DE. Wouldnt lining up one of the many other talented DEs DEN has be smart there!?!? I think hoping Mallard is the answer to the D-line woes is just reaching.

[TheReverend]

DEN is going to have HUGE issues up the middle of the defense. I mean if Niko can't do his job, DEN is screwed considering that DEN is in the same situation it was last year at DT.
Robertson is here. Great, one guy cant play every down. Thomas is good too, but jeez, after that, DEN is just going to get GOUGED up front for huge chunks of yardage. I thought Powell would ba a perfect fit for Robertson in stopping the run, and allowing a guy like Niko to make his assigments, but now McKinleys going to play next to Robertson and Thomas and Mallard are paired together!?!?!? or Peterson!?!
How do you see the pairings at DT?
And i have been reading up a little on the UNIV OF ARIZ defense, and they seem to run a similiar style of attack, of course its college, but i think Larsen's abilities just might fit in well at MIKE. Dude is a tackle machine. He just needs to learn his gaps and responsibilities. (famous last words!)

Honestly, I'm not in the least bit concerned about the DT position, and I'm probably alone in this. Thomas and McKinley played slightly above average closing out the season. You can set up a scheme where you ask them to do a lot and you can set one up where you ask them to do a little. Last year they asked them to do too much... like 2005 Gerard Warren, only he could handle it for the most part.

Robertson, McKinley and Thomas are all capable of crashing into a gap and scraping to the ball carrier. From the camp reports, aparrently Peterson is doing a terrific job at the same. And that's all they're really being asked to do... hit your gap, hold it, flow to the ball.

I'm confident Niko or Webster will step up and be SERVICEABLE in the spot we're asking them to be. We don't need a world-beater in the middle this year... we DO need DJ to play like we've been waiting for him to play, and judging from the reports, it's here. Boss needs to step up and throw a healthy season together because his role is going to flip with DJ's EVERYTIME based on whether the call is over or under.

[fontaine]

How do you see the pairings at DT?

That's what our defense is going to come down to IMO. DJ is athletic and experienced enough to make up for Niko/Nate not keeping blockers off him but he's not good enough to make up for a crappy DT pairing.

I have to believe Robertson and Thomas are going to be starting and if they can get that upfield first step going then it's going to disrupt a lot of plays. Moss on the outside with his quickness is going to help as well. Obviously it would seal the deal if we had that stud MLB who is strong enough to see what comes through the interior but there are only a handful of LBers in the league that could make that claim. But if we can get that quick front humming with Moss/Thomas/Robertson then it would be a big step and improvement from the trash we saw last year.

Having that safety (Lynch) camped in the box should ease some of the problems but I don't know if he still has the legs. I do know he still has that read/recognition skill which should hold him in good stead in the box and solid tackling skills.

[TheReverend]

DEN is going to have HUGE issues up the middle of the defense. I mean if Niko can't do his job, DEN is screwed considering that DEN is in the same situation it was last year at DT.
Robertson is here. Great, one guy cant play every down. Thomas is good too, but jeez, after that, DEN is just going to get GOUGED up front for huge chunks of yardage. I thought Powell would ba a perfect fit for Robertson in stopping the run, and allowing a guy like Niko to make his assigments, but now McKinleys going to play next to Robertson and Thomas and Mallard are paired together!?!?!? or Peterson!?!
How do you see the pairings at DT?
And i have been reading up a little on the UNIV OF ARIZ defense, and they seem to run a similiar style of attack, of course its college, but i think Larsen's abilities just might fit in well at MIKE. Dude is a tackle machine. He just needs to learn his gaps and responsibilities. (famous last words!)

Honestly, I'm not in the least bit concerned about the DT position, and I'm probably alone in this. Thomas and McKinley played slightly above average closing out the season. You can set up a scheme where you ask them to do a lot and you can set one up where you ask them to do a little. Last year they asked them to do too much... like 2005 Gerard Warren, only he could handle it for the most part.

Robertson, McKinley and Thomas are all capable of crashing into a gap and scraping to the ball carrier. From the camp reports, aparrently Peterson is doing a terrific job at the same. And that's all they're really being asked to do... hit your gap, hold it, flow to the ball.

I'm confident Niko or Webster will step up and be SERVICEABLE in the spot we're asking them to be. We don't need a world-beater in the middle this year... we DO need DJ to play like we've been waiting for him to play, and judging from the reports, it's here. Boss needs to step up and throw a healthy season together because his role is going to flip with DJ's EVERYTIME based on whether the call is over or under.

[Mediator12]

I Think this defense is much better suited to the talent, and there is a ton more talent on the DL than just a few years ago. That being said, this is not a defense that will fair well versus power running games, that will be its weakness. However, it should be more aggressive in pass rush and overall better in the passing game.

The defense should be respectables this year, read 10-15 in yards, points, and Field position/third down work. Now, the offense has got to be better and the OL will be the key. So far, that looks iffy. Time alone will tell, but they need some better performances than last year

[Kaylore]

I'm not sure where Med is going with this. We aren't going to fix this overnight but even if everything goes wrong that he suggests, an alignment and scheme that suits our personnel, coupled with guys coming back from injuries is all more than enough to elevate our rush defense from dead last. Even if we changed nothing, the experience to the young players and guys back from injury by themselves would improve the defensive line. All accounts out of camp are that the players are buying into this scheme. This means they are more confident in it and that they are starting to react rather than think too much. When you aren't confident in what you're doing, you play hesitant and you lose. The players like what they are doing. All these things will make the defense better than it was last year.

That doesn't mean we're the 85 Bears or anything close. I think long term we'll need to address middle linebacker and safety early in the draft if we want to take things out of average territory, but I don't think we're looking at dead last like we were last year.

[Kaylore]

I Think this defense is much better suited to the talent, and there is a ton more talent on the DL than just a few years ago. That being said, this is not a defense that will fair well versus power running games, that will be its weakness. However, it should be more aggressive in pass rush and overall better in the passing game.

The defense should be respectables this year, read 10-15 in yards, points, and Field position/third down work. Now, the offense has got to be better and the OL will be the key. So far, that looks iffy. Time alone will tell, but they need some better performances than last year

You posted when I did. That's all I'm saying. They aren't going to be world beaters but compared to the crap we were last year, things will look much better than they did last year. We have holes that need to be filled, but that doesn't mean we don't have strengths everywhere else.

[Inkana7]

I think the most important aspect of the change from Bates to Slowik is that the Players seem to be buying into Slo's scheme a lot more and understanding it better. That's HUGE.

[socalorado]

Honestly, I'm not in the least bit concerned about the DT position, and I'm probably alone in this. Thomas and McKinley played slightly above average closing out the season. You can set up a scheme where you ask them to do a lot and you can set one up where you ask them to do a little. Last year they asked them to do too much... like 2005 Gerard Warren, only he could handle it for the most part.

Robertson, McKinley and Thomas are all capable of crashing into a gap and scraping to the ball carrier. From the camp reports, aparrently Peterson is doing a terrific job at the same. And that's all they're really being asked to do... hit your gap, hold it, flow to the ball.

I'm confident Niko or Webster will step up and be SERVICEABLE in the spot we're asking them to be. We don't need a world-beater in the middle this year... we DO need DJ to play like we've been waiting for him to play, and judging from the reports, it's here. Boss needs to step up and throw a healthy season together because his role is going to flip with DJ's EVERYTIME based on whether the call is over or under.

Yeah, your alone on this! Ha!
DT is the biggest concern. Dont let the time between last years "grand canyon" experiment up the middle, and picking up 1 DT fool ya.
Robertson isnt going to be a world beater by any accounts, but if he can play at a solid level, great. Its the 3 and 4 guys that are scary. Peterson and McKinley. Looking good in camp isnt saying much considering these guys are not exactly "world beaters". DEN is gonna be in for much of the same as last year. Robertson and Thomas cant play every down, and pairing them up just makes it that much more of a glaring weakness with the other DTs in there.
This position had band aids all over it BEFORE Powell went down.
I just cant see any reason to believe that there will be much improvemnt in a major area of concern as last season was coming to an end.
Also, as for Moss. Man, talk about expectations! We will see is all i can say t him.
Crowder showed alot at the close of last year, and i think he will be more of a force thabn Moss.
As for Lynch in the box, man if he can stay healthy thats the ONLY spot for him! He will be a perfect SS in the box fit, and let the rest of the safeties battle it out for the FS spot.
With the way things are shaping up, i STILL think that the "Big Nickel' should be brought back. I think that scheme helped the whole team including the DTs! I mean lets face it, if you cant get to the QB, then at least you can cover the TE, allowing the DTs and the DEs to finally get to the QB or at least pressure him. Or throw wrinkles of blitzes in there to pressure the QB as well.
MAn, i really hope Slowick can transform Barrett into a "Big Nickel" safety.

[Triplelefthook]

Great. It's a shame too because I think he would have proven to be a valuable rotational guy.

that is real tragic i was looking forward to him being a factor next year - now it looks like he won't go thru his learning curve for another year

[Mediator12]

I'm not sure where Med is going with this. We aren't going to fix this overnight but even if everything goes wrong that he suggests, an alignment and scheme that suits our personnel, coupled with guys coming back from injuries is all more than enough to elevate our rush defense from dead last. Even if we changed nothing, the experience to the young players and guys back from injury by themselves would improve the defensive line. All accounts out of camp are that the players are buying into this scheme. This means they are more confident in it and that they are starting to react rather than think too much. When you aren't confident in what you're doing, you play hesitant and you lose. The players like what they are doing. All these things will make the defense better than it was last year.

That doesn't mean we're the 85 Bears or anything close. I think long term we'll need to address middle linebacker and safety early in the draft if we want to take things out of average territory, but I don't think we're looking at dead last like we were last year.


Kaylore, I think this scheme fits much better to the personnel than last year and they are more talented. I want to see what to expect from the "D". That is why I want to see the adjustments spelled out. Reverend and I are in agreement that this defense looks much better and should therfore play much better. I just want to know where their weaknesses will be.

Its my hobby dude. I watch INDY and Tampa's "D", plus Denver's to find the distinctions in WHAT they do and how they adjust to play, formation, and Situation. I know, I am a geek that way, what do you expect!

[ludo21]

Question:

If Niko is poor in coverage, can't we just "hide" that by having DJ play that zone, and Niko containing the flats?

[Mediator12]

Question:

If Niko is poor in coverage, can't we just "hide" that by having DJ play that zone, and Niko containing the flats?

In short, no. We are talking about precision spacing and timing issues here. Lining up at MIKE makes it hard to cover the flats unless its in man coverage on a RB.

Even playing cover 3 zone would be hard to keep a TE from getting the edge from where a SLOWER mike would have to come from.

[ludo21]

In short, no. We are talking about precision spacing and timing issues here. Lining up at MIKE makes it hard to cover the flats unless its in man coverage on a RB.

Even playing cover 3 zone would be hard to keep a TE from getting the edge from where a SLOWER mike would have to come from.

Ill just be optimistic then and say that our LB's cant be worse than last season ;D

[Paladin]

I read that Kenny Peterson is having a pretty good camp, and is actually penciled in beside DRob. I think it was the Sunday Post........

I think I'd like to see the play before I get too excited one way or the other. A couple of guys may well benefit from last years' expoerience.. In short, I'm thinking it is a better D overall than last year....

[BusMan]

Regarding the Big Nickel:

I was under the impression the BN was tailored to get a favorable matchup against offensive teams with TE threats (KC, SD). Is that correct?

Also, under the big nickel, did Brandon cover the TE, or Bailey as he often does against Gates/Gonzalez? Was Brandon subbing in for the LB in this scheme?

And as for the DL, don't forget that the whole line is going to be subbed in and out frequently. Having all our guys get reps in TC and getting on the same page will make the entire line better. And who knows, maybe we'll see some run down/pass down correlation eventually evolve on the DL. Of course, you don't want your lineup to be a "tell" and end up costing you via screens/draws.

[Kaylore]

I just want to know where their weaknesses will be.

Well I have no idea yet, I personally think against max protect we'll give up some big passes as well as having issues against runs in the power I and big I. I'm still not convinced we have the mass and power in this lineup to win a battle of attrition.

[TheReverend]

Yeah, your alone on this! Ha!
DT is the biggest concern. Dont let the time between last years "grand canyon" experiment up the middle, and picking up 1 DT fool ya.
Robertson isnt going to be a world beater by any accounts, but if he can play at a solid level, great. Its the 3 and 4 guys that are scary. Peterson and McKinley. Looking good in camp isnt saying much considering these guys are not exactly "world beaters". DEN is gonna be in for much of the same as last year. Robertson and Thomas cant play every down, and pairing them up just makes it that much more of a glaring weakness with the other DTs in there.
This position had band aids all over it BEFORE Powell went down.
I just cant see any reason to believe that there will be much improvemnt in a major area of concern as last season was coming to an end.
Also, as for Moss. Man, talk about expectations! We will see is all i can say t him.
Crowder showed alot at the close of last year, and i think he will be more of a force thabn Moss.
As for Lynch in the box, man if he can stay healthy thats the ONLY spot for him! He will be a perfect SS in the box fit, and let the rest of the safeties battle it out for the FS spot.
With the way things are shaping up, i STILL think that the "Big Nickel' should be brought back. I think that scheme helped the whole team including the DTs! I mean lets face it, if you cant get to the QB, then at least you can cover the TE, allowing the DTs and the DEs to finally get to the QB or at least pressure him. Or throw wrinkles of blitzes in there to pressure the QB as well.
MAn, i really hope Slowick can transform Barrett into a "Big Nickel" safety.

No. There have been HUGE additions to DT.

I'm not talking about a year's experience for Thomas or growth for McKinley/Peterson, or drafting Powell, or trading for Robertson.

I'm talking about giving them their gap and letting them play. Asking someone to play a read front then choose their gap costs precious seconds unless they're pro-bowlers.

This shift will pay dividends. I know Khan and Med are taking conservative approaches, but here are my keys:

DJ comes in to his own.

Our LDE (Engleberger, Moss, whoever the hell it is) is stout at the point of attack.

Boss is effective with the blitz and in coverage.

If those 3 areas show that kind of improvement (and from the camp reports it seems to be the case), I think this is a top 10 D conservatively.

[cabronco]

I would think the Broncos bring in another DT, since Powell is done for the year ? I just hope its not a washed up re-tread. It would sure be nice to find a capable DT for the rotation.

[TheReverend]

Well I have no idea yet, I personally think against max protect we'll give up some big passes as well as having issues against runs in the power I and big I. I'm still not convinced we have the mass and power in this lineup to win a battle of attrition.

One good thing about mass and attrition:

Lots of substitution and Slowik <3 Run Blitzes

[Kaylore]

One good thing about mass and attrition:

Lots of substitution and Slowik <3 Run Blitzes

That's true about substitutions. Do we have the depth to make it work though...

[ksBRONCOfan]

Great thread guys!:notworthy

Your football knowledge is far more technical than mine, but I enjoy reading it.

[Rohirrim]

I've wanted the Broncos to go Tampa 2 for years. But the MLB position is going to be the weakness now, though. And that's crucial in that D. I'll be interested to see what Slowik does with what he's got. Frankly, I don't have high hopes for this season.

[socalorado]

Regarding the Big Nickel:

I was under the impression the BN was tailored to get a favorable matchup against offensive teams with TE threats (KC, SD). Is that correct?

Also, under the big nickel, did Brandon cover the TE, or Bailey as he often does against Gates/Gonzalez? Was Brandon subbing in for the LB in this scheme?

And as for the DL, don't forget that the whole line is going to be subbed in and out frequently. Having all our guys get reps in TC and getting on the same page will make the entire line better. And who knows, maybe we'll see some run down/pass down correlation eventually evolve on the DL. Of course, you don't want your lineup to be a "tell" and end up costing you via screens/draws.

Brandon was the primary coverage safety, in the "big nickel" against the opposing teams TEs. He excelled at this. To the point of literally shutting down the opposing TEs.
When Brandon went down, the Big Nickel was abandoned simply because DEN did not have a player with his abilites. Brandon was a much bigger hit to the team than alot of posters realize. He played really well when Fergie went down and was coming into his own as DENs FS.
Champ was used as a "rover" last year to try and disrupt the passing game. Often Champ was placed on a teams most productive recieving threat simply because he had the best chance of stopping that player. JVille game last year was a good example of a defensive coordinator throwing out the play book, and just making up a defense as the game went. In DJs defense, this didnt help him at MIKE.
Champ would just be a 4th LB/ FS/CB. Just absurd. Not to mention all the run support he does. Theres a recipe for a major injury if i ever saw one.

[socalorado]

No. There have been HUGE additions to DT.

I'm not talking about a year's experience for Thomas or growth for McKinley/Peterson, or drafting Powell, or trading for Robertson.

I'm talking about giving them their gap and letting them play. Asking someone to play a read front then choose their gap costs precious seconds unless they're pro-bowlers.

This shift will pay dividends. I know Khan and Med are taking conservative approaches, but here are my keys:

DJ comes in to his own.

Our LDE (Engleberger, Moss, whoever the hell it is) is stout at the point of attack.

Boss is effective with the blitz and in coverage.

If those 3 areas show that kind of improvement (and from the camp reports it seems to be the case), I think this is a top 10 D conservatively.

Well, i hope this works.
I have absolutley no worries with DJ. i just hope the coaches just leave him alone.
DEs have to come up big.
No proof of this other than they were good in college and Engleberger has a motor. I have high expectations, but thats alot different than on the field experience.
I hope it works, but TOP 10 !?!?!?!?!

[Mediator12]

I've wanted the Broncos to go Tampa 2 for years. But the MLB position is going to be the weakness now, though. And that's crucial in that D. I'll be interested to see what Slowik does with what he's got. Frankly, I don't have high hopes for this season.

DEN has not been talented enough on the DL to play the over/under Scheme on the DL until now. IF they had Trevor Pryce at UT in his prime and some legit DE pass rushers that can play the run on the way to the QB they would have played that scheme.

The scheme is dependent on a strong pass rushing DL that can get to the QB WITHOUT HELP. It can not be run by weak pass rushing players. Also, DEN has not had the LB's that can supplement that scheme with the blitz.

[Kaylore]

DEN has not been talented enough on the DL to play the over/under Scheme on the DL until now.

:o Holy crap. Mediator likes our D-line? Is that an endorsement of this talent or just a rip on the old crap we had here?Ha!

[Cito Pelon]

Yeah, I agree with a lot of that Rev, but I need to see what they are tweaking. I know they are Blitzing a dirtload from their base and nickle packages early, which means they will probably blitz a high percentage of time versus the league.

Nate had trouble sealing that backside A gap in TB, and therefore he is here. Niko better be able to seal that so DJ can get free to make the play.

It will be apparent in how they change what they do in camp versus the vanilla basic they run in the Preseason. That is why I want some first hand knowledge of tendencies in TC. Comparing those to their crap vanilla will show what to expect out of the gate.

Call into 104.3 and ask Alfred Williams about the scheme. He likes to talk DL and scheme. You can listen online also.

http://www.fm1043thefan.com/scottAndAl/

[Rohirrim]

DEN has not been talented enough on the DL to play the over/under Scheme on the DL until now. IF they had Trevor Pryce at UT in his prime and some legit DE pass rushers that can play the run on the way to the QB they would have played that scheme.

The scheme is dependent on a strong pass rushing DL that can get to the QB WITHOUT HELP. It can not be run by weak pass rushing players. Also, DEN has not had the LB's that can supplement that scheme with the blitz.

Like I said, I've wanted them to go that way for years (you might remember me and Fontaine had this discussion with you last year). Finally, it looks like they have the crucial pieces on the Dline and the secondary but now they don't have the MLB. I guess I wasn't clear. Frankly, I don't know what Slowik is going to come up with. How do you create a pass rushing D that can also stop the run without a versatile MLB? He's going to almost have to create a scheme that protects the LBs. That sucks. It also goes against the style of play you went out and got this Dline for in the first place. I'm afraid, once more, it's going to be some kind of piece meal operation.

[socalorado]

Like I said, I've wanted them to go that way for years (you might remember me and Fontaine had this discussion with you last year). Finally, it looks like they have the crucial pieces on the Dline and the secondary but now they don't have the MLB. I guess I wasn't clear. Frankly, I don't know what Slowik is going to come up with. How do you create a pass rushing D that can also stop the run without a versatile MLB? He's going to almost have to create a scheme that protects the LBs. That sucks. It also goes against the style of play you went out and got this Dline for in the first place. I'm afraid, once more, it's going to be some kind of piece meal operation.

Gimme your opinion of the ideal Tampa 2 MIKE.

[Kaylore]

Call into 104.3 and ask Alfred Williams about the scheme. He likes to talk DL and scheme. You can listen online also.

http://www.fm1043thefan.com/scottAndAl/

Except that Alfred Williams doesn't know what he's talking about. He liked Simeone Rice coming in and and said Moss would fail in the NFL. Obviously the jury is still out on Moss but I've heard some of the players he likes and I disagree with him 90% of the time.

[Cito Pelon]

Honestly, I'm not in the least bit concerned about the DT position, and I'm probably alone in this. Thomas and McKinley played slightly above average closing out the season. You can set up a scheme where you ask them to do a lot and you can set one up where you ask them to do a little. Last year they asked them to do too much... like 2005 Gerard Warren, only he could handle it for the most part.

Robertson, McKinley and Thomas are all capable of crashing into a gap and scraping to the ball carrier. From the camp reports, aparrently Peterson is doing a terrific job at the same. And that's all they're really being asked to do... hit your gap, hold it, flow to the ball.

I'm confident Niko or Webster will step up and be SERVICEABLE in the spot we're asking them to be. We don't need a world-beater in the middle this year... we DO need DJ to play like we've been waiting for him to play, and judging from the reports, it's here. Boss needs to step up and throw a healthy season together because his role is going to flip with DJ's EVERYTIME based on whether the call is over or under.

I think they will ask them to do a little, and hope the LB's can do the cleanup work. I guess that was what Med was asking about. And that would be why they would bring a safety into the box also, as has been reported is happening in TC.

[Mediator12]

:o Holy crap. Mediator likes our D-line? Is that an endorsement of this talent or just a rip on the old crap we had here?Ha!

Both :welcome:

I Like Jarvis Moss, Dumervil can rush, Robertson is talented, McKinley was OK, and Peterson is a solid penetrating UT. However, The scheme is my priority. Every scheme has inherent strengths and weaknesses. How the Coaching staff minimizes the weaknesses is key to the success for each team.

You do that by changing your presnap adjustments and gameplanning week to week. I want to know what ehy might do differently...

[Traveler]

Like I said, I've wanted them to go that way for years (you might remember me and Fontaine had this discussion with you last year). Finally, it looks like they have the crucial pieces on the Dline and the secondary but now they don't have the MLB. I guess I wasn't clear. Frankly, I don't know what Slowik is going to come up with. How do you create a pass rushing D that can also stop the run without a versatile MLB? He's going to almost have to create a scheme that protects the LBs. That sucks. It also goes against the style of play you went out and got this Dline for in the first place. I'm afraid, once more, it's going to be some kind of piece meal operation.


Looking at the defense, MLB really stands out as a weakness. I truely believe we'll wind up signing (Wilson) or trading for an experienced MLB before the regular season begins.

But, I really do like the fact that Slowik is designing the defense to suit the talents of the players.

[Rohirrim]

Gimme your opinion of the ideal Tampa 2 MIKE.

If I want quizzes I'll go back to school. But here's an basic article if you want to read up on it: http://www.footballtimes.org/Article.asp?ID=167

[*WARHORSE*]

I dont see where people are concerned with Robertson against the run.

The man was playing out of position at NT last couple of years.

Hes going to be having a great time hitting his gap and shredding.

Having more experience on the line now, as well as having a system that the players understand and buy into will help our defense alot.

Stop the run.

Thats all I ask this year.

[Cito Pelon]

Well I have no idea yet, I personally think against max protect we'll give up some big passes as well as having issues against runs in the power I and big I. I'm still not convinced we have the mass and power in this lineup to win a battle of attrition.

Yeah, it's not an awesome roster. Other than Elvis and Champ I'm stumped for a potential All-Pro. BTW, from what I read Elvis has been at RDE so far in TC. Damn Moss was supposed to be the RDE. Elvis numbers are gonna be cut in half at RDE. He's the best DE on the roster, though, so there we are.

However, I certainly expect to see a better D in terms of points and TO's compared to last year.

[Cito Pelon]

One good thing about mass and attrition:

Lots of substitution and Slowik <3 Run Blitzes

I can see the substitutions as an upside, but it's also worrisome if the opposing O decides to go hurryup. Ah well, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Cito Pelon]

Except that Alfred Williams doesn't know what he's talking about. He liked Simeone Rice coming in and and said Moss would fail in the NFL. Obviously the jury is still out on Moss but I've heard some of the players he likes and I disagree with him 90% of the time.

Alfred comes up with some head-scratchers at times, that's for sure. Med will have to make up his own mind about Alfred.

[*WARHORSE*]

ENGLEWOOD -- The hot seat? Sure. His comfort zone? You bet.

Bob Slowik is settling in as Denver's third defensive boss in three years under coach Mike Shanahan and he doesn't have the time or the gumption to give his job security a second thought.

"It's kind of like players. You don't tell them every day, 'Hey, if you don't start making plays or you're not getting the job done, you're not going to be here.' It's the NFL. They know that. Coaches know the same thing," Slowik said.

"But that's the last thing from my mind," he said. "I go to sleep at night and feel good."

After all, Slowik wasn't sure if he'd ever have the chance to build a defense again after his last gig didn't go so well in Green Bay in 2004.

He left the Packers after one forgettable season in charge of a defense that allowed a franchise record 37 touchdown passes and managed a measly eight interceptions.

"I kind of thought, hey, that might have been my last opportunity," Slowik said. "So, I'm very fortunate."

Slowik, who also served as defensive coordinator in Cleveland in 1999 and in Chicago from 1993-98, landed in Denver in 2005 coaching the defensive backs and tutoring perennial Pro Bowlers Champ Bailey and John Lynch.

Last year, Slowik was promoted to defensive coordinator/secondary coach, but it was Jim Bates who built the defense and called the plays. After a miserable start, though, the Broncos ditched Bates' big linemen scheme, opting for more agile athletes and putting eight men in the box, hallmarks of Slowik's philosophies.The hybrid scheme helped some, but the Broncos, shuffling their lineup and tenets, finished near the bottom of the league in rush defense and yards allowed and missed the playoffs for the second straight season.

As Larry Coyer did the year before, Bates paid the price. He refused a demotion to linebackers coach and left the team. He was replaced by Slowik, 54.

Cornerback Dre' Bly said Slowik brings a different feel to both the classroom and the football field.

"Coach is a great teacher. And not to knock Bates or anything, but Slow makes sure everything is understood and everything is in detail," Bly said. "I think the guys respond well to Slowik, there's no laughing and joking in our meetings, it's all business. It's all teaching."

Players appreciate Slowik's respectful style, which they say was a big reason the Broncos pass defense allowed the seventh-fewest yards per game last year.

"He doesn't really yell at you or curse at you. When he's coaching you it's constructive criticism," cornerback Karl Paymah said. "He goes straight to the point, it's not him trying to put you down or demean you or make you look dumb in front of anyone else or try to prove a point. He brought the best out of the DBs and it's really going to carry on to the rest of the defense."

Shanahan thinks so.

"I've known Bob well over 20 years. He's a heck of a coach, one of the most knowledgeable people that I've been around and he's doing a heck of a job," Shanahan said.

Despite integrating some of his ideas in a futile attempt to save the season last year, Slowik said this scheme doesn't bear any resemblance to last year's.

"Zero. New terminology, new techniques," he said.

"Basically, he's simplified it," Paymah said. "You don't want to be out there week to week changing the scheme up because guys will get confused. You can't be out there thinking, you've got to be reacting."

[socalorado]

If I want quizzes I'll go back to school. But here's an basic article if you want to read up on it: http://www.footballtimes.org/Article.asp?ID=167

Great answer! I wasnt quizzing you, i was just asking you for the name of a player you thought was the ideal MIKE in the Tampa 2.

[Dean]

Yeah, it's not an awesome roster. Other than Elvis and Champ I'm stumped for a potential All-Pro. BTW, from what I read Elvis has been at RDE so far in TC. Damn Moss was supposed to be the RDE. Elvis numbers are gonna be cut in half at RDE. He's the best DE on the roster, though, so there we are.

However, I certainly expect to see a better D in terms of points and TO's compared to last year.

Right defensive end is the same position that Elvis was starting at last year. The defensive right is on the left of the QB- a right-handers blind side. IMO, I would imagine that a better run stopper (if my memory is correct, his tackles last year averaged 4 yards down field) will end up starting in place of Elvis. He will operate more as a pass rush specialist this year.

He is good at what he does but until he can do a better job against the run I don't see him as an every down player.

[cmhargrove]

1st off no one knows if Ekuban is back to his above average self, and second i am not so sure Robertson and Thomas next to each other really is the best fit. Whos gonna play on the downs when they are not in there?
McKinley and Peterson!?!?! Jeez, so we get GOUGED on those downs.
Great line Mallard up at DE. Wouldnt lining up one of the many other talented DEs DEN has be smart there!?!? I think hoping Mallard is the answer to the D-line woes is just reaching.

Go back a couple years to our "good run defense." Our last package that did really well, just had a couple pluggers in the middle and two large DE's (Ekuban and Courtney Brown). That was back when we were still shutting down LT. The larger line was pretty stout at the LOS and made teams try to run laterally against us (where our speed at LB took over).

So, It may no longer hold true, but it would stand to reason that a couple pluggers in the middle + Ekuban and Mallard might be able to do something similar. Force plays outside to a speedy LB corps.

Watch the last couple games of last season. When Mallard was in, he showed the highest motor of any lineman (except maybe Elvis). And, he can play inside or outside like Ekuban. I believe it would yield a powerful, run stopping group like in 2005.

Of course the piece that is missing is Al. When someone did try to beak through the line, he usually met them in or near the hole and made them pay. I don't know if Niko can do that yet.

[TheReverend]

I think they will ask them to do a little, and hope the LB's can do the cleanup work. I guess that was what Med was asking about. And that would be why they would bring a safety into the box also, as has been reported is happening in TC.

Thanks for paraphrasing exactly what I've said!

[Rohirrim]

Great answer! I wasnt quizzing you, i was just asking you for the name of a player you thought was the ideal MIKE in the Tampa 2.

Well, it ain't Niko. That's for sure. :rofl:

[socalorado]

Well, it ain't Niko. That's for sure. :rofl:

Man, i swear all offseason i have been hoping this rookie will pan out or that rookie will be real good, but Jeez!
Now i am hoping Larsen can really turn it on and make us all believers!
Thats alot of hoping.............

[Play2win]

Well, it ain't Niko. That's for sure. :rofl:

Rey would be nice... :pray:

[socalorado]

Rey would be nice... :pray:

Would he fit the Tampa 2?

[TheReverend]

Would he fit the Tampa 2?

Tampa 2 is certainly not what we'll be playing. When Med referred to "think Tampa or Indy" he didn't mean the Tampa 2... he meant the aggressive DL play and the mind-set of "crash your gap and tackle the running back on the way to the quarterback if he has the ball". Tampa 2 as a base would be the biggest waste of Denver's talent!

[Mediator12]

Tampa 2 is certainly not what we'll be playing. When Med referred to "think Tampa or Indy" he didn't mean the Tampa 2... he meant the aggressive DL play and the mind-set of "crash your gap and tackle the running back on the way to the quarterback if he has the ball". Tampa 2 as a base would be the biggest waste of Denver's talent!

Right, I meant they use a smaller, quicker DL to penetrate and make OL block laterally. The back seven depends on the zone man mix in coverage and whether they play off at CB's and deep safety's. Heck, Indy is the only true Tampa 2 team in the league right now. TB has started to play much more combination coverages and cover three now that Tanard Jackson has emerged as a lone cover safety. Even CHI was more cover 3 last year.

The ideal cover 2 Mike would be Al Wilson or Brian Urlacher though. Speedy enough to Will, strong enough to play Mike and shed OL. Not many of those out there though!

[bpc]

Larson is great at shedding blocks and plays with great pop when he hits the scene. He isn't the most talented or the fastest but he'll do what is needed and will always be around the ball. He'll be a nice fix between Boss and DJ.

[Drek]

Both :welcome:

I Like Jarvis Moss, Dumervil can rush, Robertson is talented, McKinley was OK, and Peterson is a solid penetrating UT. However, The scheme is my priority. Every scheme has inherent strengths and weaknesses. How the Coaching staff minimizes the weaknesses is key to the success for each team.

You do that by changing your presnap adjustments and gameplanning week to week. I want to know what ehy might do differently...

Holy ****!

This from the guy who the last three years or so has said we don't have a single worthwhile DL on the team!

:) Just teasing Med, though if I recall you did say that (and were right).

We've got some nice talent in the front seven, first time we could say that in a while. We're also going back to a scheme much better fitting of our resources, so I'm expecting some improvement.

However, I get the impression some people think we're going to revert to the pre-'07 seasons where we were a top 5 run stopping D. That isn't happening. Al Wilson was a stud and did more than any of us fully understood. I got to eat my words because I was a little down on him his last season or so here. We miss him and no matter what scheme we go to you can't minimize the MLB's role enough to cover the loss of Wilson.

He was the glue that made Coyer's defensive scheme work. I don't think Niko, Webster, or Larsen is going to step in and fill those massive shoes. If they can even half fill those shoes we'll be an ok run stopping team, but I'd be amazed if we crack the top 10 without one of those three guys becoming a serious stud.

[fontaine]

I think on obvious rushing downs we'll be ok as we'll have Lynch in the box to help and he still has a pretty good pop in the tackles from what I've read in the camp reports (thanks guys).

The problem as someone mentioned, is going to be for screens, draw plays where it won't be as obvious. We're going to get gashed big time on those kind of plays because our front four is going to be an aggressive up the field D.

[dekers]

I think on obvious rushing downs we'll be ok as we'll have Lynch in the box to help and he still has a pretty good pop in the tackles from what I've read in the camp reports (thanks guys).

The problem as someone mentioned, is going to be for screens, draw plays where it won't be as obvious. We're going to get gashed big time on those kind of plays because our front four is going to be an aggressive up the field D.

I also think we will have problems with the play-action pass on first down , when lynch is in the game. Look for other teams to try and use are best run defence against us.

[Mediator12]

Holy ****!

This from the guy who the last three years or so has said we don't have a single worthwhile DL on the team!

:) Just teasing Med, though if I recall you did say that (and were right).

We've got some nice talent in the front seven, first time we could say that in a while. We're also going back to a scheme much better fitting of our resources, so I'm expecting some improvement.

However, I get the impression some people think we're going to revert to the pre-'07 seasons where we were a top 5 run stopping D. That isn't happening. Al Wilson was a stud and did more than any of us fully understood. I got to eat my words because I was a little down on him his last season or so here. We miss him and no matter what scheme we go to you can't minimize the MLB's role enough to cover the loss of Wilson.

He was the glue that made Coyer's defensive scheme work. I don't think Niko, Webster, or Larsen is going to step in and fill those massive shoes. If they can even half fill those shoes we'll be an ok run stopping team, but I'd be amazed if we crack the top 10 without one of those three guys becoming a serious stud.

The thing about those defenses is they did it without a real DT for many years. Ever since they put Pryce at LDE, DEN has not had a legit starting NFL DT. The proof was that Warren was traded to the Raiders and was a situational player, and marginal one at that, for a horrible injury decimated run defense. Myers was let go and they brought in no less than 4 DT's last year to no avail.

Al Wilson lost a LOT of career time absorbing the trash the DT's allowed to get to the second level. He could still be playing if he had any help from the front 4. Also, remember all the crying about not being able to hold a lead? The LB's got wore out covering for all the pathetic DL play during games and it got worse as the season progressed. No pass rush, no run help, and getting tired will do that to a defense.

What they have done is finally realize they needed to draft young players and develop them. They got Dumervil for pass rush, Moss is a great pass rusher who plays the run better than people realize despite his weight, Crowder is a valuable backup with potential to be a starter, and Thomas is getting back into playing shape and will impact the pass rush and hopefully start at UT soon. McKinley is just another career backup body, and my guy Engleberger is valuable depth. This is the best DL they have fielded since Pryce, Hayward, and Berry played together.

What still needs to happen, is they play the simple scheme consistently. None of the young guys have had the breakout year, yet. They need at least 2 of them to do that RIGHT NOW. Couple that with Robertson staying healthy and playing like he did 3 years ago in a 4-3 and the run defense should be average at Worst. Borderline Top 10 at best. The pass rush should be there With Dumervil, Peterson, and Moss on Passing downs, but will it be better than average? Only time will tell.

[TheReverend]

The thing about those defenses is they did it without a real DT for many years. Ever since they put Pryce at LDE, DEN has not had a legit starting NFL DT. The proof was that Warren was traded to the Raiders and was a situational player, and marginal one at that, for a horrible injury decimated run defense. Myers was let go and they brought in no less than 4 DT's last year to no avail.

Al Wilson lost a LOT of career time absorbing the trash the DT's allowed to get to the second level. He could still be playing if he had any help from the front 4. Also, remember all the crying about not being able to hold a lead? The LB's got wore out covering for all the pathetic DL play during games and it got worse as the season progressed. No pass rush, no run help, and getting tired will do that to a defense.

What they have done is finally realize they needed to draft young players and develop them. They got Dumervil for pass rush, Moss is a great pass rusher who plays the run better than people realize despite his weight, Crowder is a valuable backup with potential to be a starter, and Thomas is getting back into playing shape and will impact the pass rush and hopefully start at UT soon. McKinley is just another career backup body, and my guy Engleberger is valuable depth. This is the best DL they have fielded since Pryce, Hayward, and Berry played together.

What still needs to happen, is they play the simple scheme consistently. None of the young guys have had the breakout year, yet. They need at least 2 of them to do that RIGHT NOW. Couple that with Robertson staying healthy and playing like he did 3 years ago in a 4-3 and the run defense should be average at Worst. Borderline Top 10 at best. The pass rush should be there With Dumervil, Peterson, and Moss on Passing downs, but will it be better than average? Only time will tell.

Great post but I have a couple areas of concern to highlight.

You blame Al on the poor DL play... which certainly doesn't help, but I have my suspicions that part of bringing Gold back was to have Gold and DJ on the field for the nickle so Al could take less wear and tear, until DJ started blowing coverage assignments. Clarify or debunk, please.

Other notes, Engleberger is well above average at the point of attack, even through injury last season. He deserves to start until Crowder can show that same push against the run.

Warren I disagree. He looked fierce and played just as fierce in 2005. Can you blame the injury on him in 2006? I think it was foreshadowing for the Javon situation. There was one game specifically when he was sidelined with the injury where he COULD have played, and we blew a good lead while he was out... I think that punched his ticket and nothing else.

[Domostick]

On running downs I've seen Hamza in the box on the strongside while Lynch stats 5 yards back of the Mike a lot of the times. Has anyone else noticed this?

Bailey and Bly are playing like we were accustomed to watching Bailey and DWill play, 5-7 yards of the ball or showing 7-9 and then closing in when the ball is hiked. We are going to see strictly zone coverage with them so they can peak in at the QB and create turnovers.

When we play nickle I think Foxy will man the Z receiver while Bly is put in the slot.

Niko will win the starting Mike job because on running downs he is very effective at slashing through the blockers, picking through the junk and crashing on the ball carrier. He is absolute trash in coverage though so we will definitely be leaving DJ and Boss on the field in during Nickle coverages.

Boss has looked the best at blitzing so far and has looked very natural and comfortable in coverage. He is very athletic just like his brother and will be an underrated part of our defense.

[Mediator12]

Look I know people will disagree about Warren, but he never made plays partner. Name one big play the guy ever did. Seriously, one Tackle for loss. One stuff on third and short. One sack or even pressure that caused an incompletion when it counted. Warren is an immensely talented underachiever that fails to be consistent or make plays. The very definition of average or below average to me. He was the best of the trash and no more.

I have always liked Engleberger, but I think Moss SHOULD start. With John getting some reps is short yardage and to spell him from time to time.

I do NOT blame Al for anything, I thank him for playing his heart out and getting hammered down with wear an tear from ineffective DT's for 5 years.

[Peoples Champ]

man I miss Al Wilson

[watermock]

I knew all this allready! I just forget!

[Cito Pelon]

Right defensive end is the same position that Elvis was starting at last year. The defensive right is on the left of the QB- a right-handers blind side. IMO, I would imagine that a better run stopper (if my memory is correct, his tackles last year averaged 4 yards down field) will end up starting in place of Elvis. He will operate more as a pass rush specialist this year.

He is good at what he does but until he can do a better job against the run I don't see him as an every down player.

Mostly he's been an LDE. They did have him moving from side to side during the season, but I think 80% of the time he's been at LDE. I think he's better suited to the left as a pass rusher, but if he's the best pass-rusher I guess they'd want him on the right. I'd like to see Elvis on the field for every snap, myself.

[TheReverend]

Mostly he's been an LDE. They did have him moving from side to side during the season, but I think 80% of the time he's been at LDE. I think he's better suited to the left as a pass rusher, but if he's the best pass-rusher I guess they'd want him on the right. I'd like to see Elvis on the field for every snap, myself.

........

Did you watch last season?

[Cito Pelon]

........

Did you watch last season?

What's your point? Are you saying Elvis played mostly RDE last season, or what?

[Drek]

Look I know people will disagree about Warren, but he never made plays partner. Name one big play the guy ever did. Seriously, one Tackle for loss. One stuff on third and short. One sack or even pressure that caused an incompletion when it counted. Warren is an immensely talented underachiever that fails to be consistent or make plays. The very definition of average or below average to me. He was the best of the trash and no more.

I have always liked Engleberger, but I think Moss SHOULD start. With John getting some reps is short yardage and to spell him from time to time.

I do NOT blame Al for anything, I thank him for playing his heart out and getting hammered down with wear an tear from ineffective DT's for 5 years.
I believe Rev meant you blamed Al's career coming to an abrupt end on our lack of DL quality during his tenure here.

Personally I'd agree with that, as Al took an absolute beating year after year. He covered up so much DL weaknesses, especially up the middle and his body broke down horribly as the price for that elite play.

[TheReverend]

What's your point? Are you saying Elvis played mostly RDE last season, or what?

Pretty much exclusively, actually.

[TheReverend]

I believe Rev meant you blamed Al's career coming to an abrupt end on our lack of DL quality during his tenure here.

Personally I'd agree with that, as Al took an absolute beating year after year. He covered up so much DL weaknesses, especially up the middle and his body broke down horribly as the price for that elite play.

Thanks, yes that's what I meant, coupled with the fact that bringing Gold back was partly to give Al a break on nickle downs, and was asking Med for his thoughts on that specifically.

My internet has been down at "work", so good lookin out Drek.

[Traveler]

Changing gears a little, does anyone know when the last time was that one of our LB's made an interception?

[Inkana7]

Actually, they moved Dumervil all around last year. You could never tell which side he was coming from. Against the Chiefs, he played a lot of RDE, against the Vikings, LDE.

[Inkana7]

Changing gears a little, does anyone know when the last time was that one of our LB's made an interception?

Ian Gold intercepted Vince Young last year. A few weeks earlier DJ Williams picked off Ben Roethlisberger.

[TheReverend]

Changing gears a little, does anyone know when the last time was that one of our LB's made an interception?

DJ had one last year. He was taking a deep drop in coverage to cover the seam (safeties were in cover 2), but was too late recognizing the play/throw to make the hit on the receiver, but Gold tipped it and DJ was in the perfect position.

[Cito Pelon]

Pretty much exclusively, actually.

Nah, you're way off the mark.

[TheReverend]

Nah, you're way off the mark.

I'd love to see anything resembling supporting evidence. I'd bet a minimum of 80% of his snaps came from the weak side.

[Inkana7]

I'd love to see anything resembling supporting evidence. I'd bet a minimum of 80% of his snaps came from the weak side.

Just from a memory test, I'd say it's about 60-40. He started on the weak side, but he really feasted against RTs.

Elvis flipped sides a lot. Don't you remember?

[Cito Pelon]

I'd love to see anything resembling supporting evidence. I'd bet a minimum of 80% of his snaps came from the weak side.

Back atcha. Go find supporting evidence for your assertion. It won't be easy, which is why you want me to do the homework, and I want you to.

[Cito Pelon]

Just from a memory test, I'd say it's about 60-40. He started on the weak side, but he really feasted against RTs.

Elvis flipped sides a lot. Don't you remember?

Actually, way back in this thread when we started this tete-a-tete I was referring to Elvis' entire career. But for last season my memory tells me he was mostly at LDE. Moss, Crowder & Rice were on the right for the first 6 games or so, then when Moss and Rice were gone Elvis started playing weakside more often, flipping around a lot with #60 and Crowder.

The point I was trying to make before it devolved into this 'I say, you say', is Elvis is more suited to the left where he can as you say feast on RT's. Moss was drafted to play weakside, he needs to step up and do so or they'll have to find somebody in order to get the most out of Elvis and the entire passrush IMO.

[broncosteven]

I Think this defense is much better suited to the talent, and there is a ton more talent on the DL than just a few years ago. That being said, this is not a defense that will fair well versus power running games, that will be its weakness. However, it should be more aggressive in pass rush and overall better in the passing game.

The defense should be respectables this year, read 10-15 in yards, points, and Field position/third down work. Now, the offense has got to be better and the OL will be the key. So far, that looks iffy. Time alone will tell, but they need some better performances than last year

Freeing Champ up to use his athletisim (s/p) and natural insticts on will also help. One could tell last year he was trying to cover too much of the field both run and pass...

Champ freelancing, Bly a #1 on most teams and some solid play from the nickel guy whomever and hopefully some well timed CB blitzes should help.

We won't see a dominate D anytime soon but if they coach to the players talents and not just coach a "scheme" there will be improvement.

[ScottXray]

When the rule changed that the officials will be placed more directly behind the snap, we all were clamoring that Doom would either get more sacks, or get the holding calls that weren't last year. Specifically when he came from LDE and the O tackle there had his arm draped across Dooms neck so often and yet nothing was called.

Personally I'd like to see him coming from that side, rather than the O's left. He seemed to get by the RT a lot more than the LT, and if they throw the flag for the holding its almost as good as a sack. :thumbs:

[Mediator12]

Dumervil Started 15 of 16 games last year at RDE. He rushed from the LDE position later in the year as Crowder and Moss were injured in Nickel sets. He played the majority of his snaps from RDE, something more like 70-30 RDE.

[Broncos_OTM]

Dumervil played Weakside Defensive End wether it was from the Left or the Right.. from what i recalled he played opposite of the TE

[Mediator12]

Dumervil played Weakside Defensive End wether it was from the Left or the Right.. from what i recalled he played opposite of the TE

Most of the time he did not line up over the Tight end, but Denver does not play Strong/Weak with its DE's. Rushing from the LDE is not as natural to some, but having Dumervil, Moss, and Crowder being able to do it is a huge bonus.

[Mediator12]

With the release of Lynch and the amount of Blitzing going on, it looks like DEN is going to run Cover one/Cover 3 man behind its front in its Base package based on personnel and early TC tendencies. This is going to be fun in preseason people, because this is Not a vanilla type "D" in any sort of way. It will be a version of in your face football and it should be fun to watch.

How many days until the frist preseason game ;D

[TheReverend]

With the release of Lynch and the amount of Blitzing going on, it looks like DEN is going to run Cover one/Cover 3 man behind its front in its Base package based on personnel and early TC tendencies. This is going to be fun in preseason people, because this is Not a vanilla type "D" in any sort of way. It will be a version of in your face football and it should be fun to watch.

How many days until the frist preseason game ;D

A good chunk of 2005 to 2006 coverage with different assignments up front. I am semi-giddy, but I'd much rather see more cover 1... that's what we pay Bailey and Bly for.

[Mediator12]

A good chunk of 2005 to 2006 coverage with different assignments up front. I am semi-giddy, but I'd much rather see more cover 1... that's what we pay Bailey and Bly for.

Well, if they blitz like they are doing right now, you are going to see it! I think they will play the Cover three heavy on running downs and a lot of Cover one on passing downs. That has always been Slowiks philosophy, with more than a few Run blitz stunts to keep the OL honest.

As i said, It seems they are going to be very aggressive up front and rely on coverage from the 2 CB's. Should be fun if the Safety's can play deep assist better than in the past.

[TheReverend]

Well, if they blitz like they are doing right now, you are going to see it! I think they will play the Cover three heavy on running downs and a lot of Cover one on passing downs. That has always been Slowiks philosophy, with more than a few Run blitz stunts to keep the OL honest.

As i said, It seems they are going to be very aggressive up front and rely on coverage from the 2 CB's. Should be fun if the Safety's can play deep assist better than in the past.

I just hope he tweaks his blitzes to be more effective than they were in GB! Our personnel is stronger than theirs was, either way.

If Hamza goes down I fully expect to see Cover 3 full time. I wouldn't trust Manuel or McCree playing center field.

[watermock]

u 2 are giving me wood! kinda...

We can win 10 games if Brandon gets only 2. Hope so, it was time for Lynch to go...

BTW good thread u 2.

[Rohirrim]

With the release of Lynch and the amount of Blitzing going on, it looks like DEN is going to run Cover one/Cover 3 man behind its front in its Base package based on personnel and early TC tendencies. This is going to be fun in preseason people, because this is Not a vanilla type "D" in any sort of way. It will be a version of in your face football and it should be fun to watch.

How many days until the frist preseason game ;D

I can't wait.
:~ohyah!:

[TheReverend]

u 2 are giving me wood! kinda...

We can win 10 games if Brandon gets only 2. Hope so, it was time for Lynch to go...

BTW good thread u 2.

Try and stay grounded. The heavy blitzing and single gap from the front seven is going to be exciting, but it stills carries the potential to blow up in all of our faces.

The good news... opposing QBs and RBs will KNOW they played a football game at the end of the day. And we just may kill Phillip Rivers.

[socalorado]

Try and stay grounded. The heavy blitzing and single gap from the front seven is going to be exciting, but it stills carries the potential to blow up in all of our faces.

The good news... opposing QBs and RBs will KNOW they played a football game at the end of the day. And we just may kill Phillip Rivers.

So who would you trust to play FS in a cover 1?

[TheReverend]

So who would you trust to play FS in a cover 1?

Hamza.

Barrett in a year if he develops well.

[watermock]

McCree scares me...too much like Kenoy Kennedy. *wiff*

[socalorado]

Hamza.

Barrett in a year if he develops well.

Well, you know i would trust Barrett RIGHT NOW over Hamza deep, but thats another thread.
If the Cover 1 works correctly, it wouldnt be such a burden on the FS because the QB is getting a TON of pressure, but jeez, the "whiffer" at FS scares me more than McCree. And McCree isnt the greatest wrap up tackler out there. I would rather have hamza up at the line and McCree deep.
We just differ here. No biggie.
I see what your sayin though.

[TheReverend]

Well, you know i would trust Barrett RIGHT NOW over Hamza deep, but thats another thread.
If the Cover 1 works correctly, it wouldnt be such a burden on the FS because the QB is getting a TON of pressure, but jeez, the "whiffer" at FS scares me more than McCree. And McCree isnt the greatest wrap up tackler out there. I would rather have hamza up at the line and McCree deep.
We just differ here. No biggie.
I see what your sayin though.

And if the QB has enough time to take a 5 step, he can lob one up, and Hamza has the range to go get it if Champ/Dre can't make the play.

I'm looking forward to what he can do approaching the line in that situation. 9/10 the team is going to be in max protect when they see that look, but that doesn't excuse a TE or RB from chipping and then being a QUICK check down in the flat. Meanwhile, Bailey and Bly are all the way downfield, and DJ, Boss and Niko have blitzed like crazy. Hamza can be there to make the play within 2 yards.

[Cito Pelon]

Dumervil Started 15 of 16 games last year at RDE. He rushed from the LDE position later in the year as Crowder and Moss were injured in Nickel sets. He played the majority of his snaps from RDE, something more like 70-30 RDE.

Where did you get this info? Can you find how many sacks came from L vs. R.

[Mediator12]

Where did you get this info? Can you find how many sacks came from L vs. R.

The starts can be found many different ways, NFL gamebooks, Team Website, Media guide, etc. The ratio was from my game notes. I still break down every game and Dumervil rotated to LDE in some nickel sets after Moss and Crowder were injured. When Crowder came back, he went almost exclusively back to RDE.

I would have to go back and watch the sacks unless Stats inc has it, I'll check and let you know.

[Cito Pelon]

The starts can be found many different ways, NFL gamebooks, Team Website, Media guide, etc. The ratio was from my game notes. I still break down every game and Dumervil rotated to LDE in some nickel sets after Moss and Crowder were injured. When Crowder came back, he went almost exclusively back to RDE.

I would have to go back and watch the sacks unless Stats inc has it, I'll check and let you know.

Thanks.