Looks like Bush was right about Yellow Cake in Iraq

[Spider]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080705/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_yellowcake_mission
By BRIAN MURPHY, Associated Press Writer Sat Jul 5, 2:04 PM ET

The last major remnant of Saddam Hussein's nuclear program — a huge stockpile of concentrated natural uranium — reached a Canadian port Saturday to complete a secret U.S. operation that included a two-week airlift from Baghdad and a ship voyage crossing two oceans.
ADVERTISEMENT


The removal of 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" — the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment — was a significant step toward closing the books on Saddam's nuclear legacy. It also brought relief to U.S. and Iraqi authorities who had worried the cache would reach insurgents or smugglers crossing to Iran to aid its nuclear ambitions.

What's now left is the final and complicated push to clean up the remaining radioactive debris at the former Tuwaitha nuclear complex about 12 miles south of Baghdad — using teams that include Iraqi experts recently trained in the Chernobyl fallout zone in Ukraine.

"Everyone is very happy to have this safely out of Iraq," said a senior U.S. official who outlined the nearly three-month operation to The Associated Press. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject.

While yellowcake alone is not considered potent enough for a so-called "dirty bomb" — a conventional explosive that disperses radioactive material — it could stir widespread panic if incorporated in a blast. Yellowcake also can be enriched for use in reactors and, at higher levels, nuclear weapons using sophisticated equipment.

The Iraqi government sold the yellowcake to a Canadian uranium producer, Cameco Corp., in a transaction the official described as worth "tens of millions of dollars." A Cameco spokesman, Lyle Krahn, declined to discuss the price, but said the yellowcake will be processed at facilities in Ontario for use in energy-producing reactors.

"We are pleased ... that we have taken (the yellowcake) from a volatile region into a stable area to produce clean electricity," he said.

The deal culminated more than a year of intense diplomatic and military initiatives — kept hushed in fear of ambushes or attacks once the convoys were under way: first carrying 3,500 barrels by road to Baghdad, then on 37 military flights to the Indian Ocean atoll of Diego Garcia and finally aboard a U.S.-flagged ship for a 8,500-mile trip to Montreal.

And, in a symbolic way, the mission linked the current attempts to stabilize Iraq with some of the high-profile claims about Saddam's weapons capabilities in the buildup to the 2003 invasion.

Accusations that Saddam had tried to purchase more yellowcake from the African nation of Niger — and an article by a former U.S. ambassador refuting the claims — led to a wide-ranging probe into Washington leaks that reached high into the Bush administration.

Tuwaitha and an adjacent research facility were well known for decades as the centerpiece of Saddam's nuclear efforts.

Israeli warplanes bombed a reactor project at the site in 1981. Later, U.N. inspectors documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the official said.

U.S. and Iraqi forces have guarded the 23,000-acre site — surrounded by huge sand berms — following a wave of looting after Saddam's fall that included villagers toting away yellowcake storage barrels for use as drinking water cisterns.

Yellowcake is obtained by using various solutions to leach out uranium from raw ore and can have a corn meal-like color and consistency. It poses no severe risk if stored and sealed properly. But exposure carries well-documented health concerns associated with heavy metals such as damage to internal organs, experts say.

"The big problem comes with any inhalation of any of the yellowcake dust," said Doug Brugge, a professor of public health issues at the Tufts University School of Medicine.

Moving the yellowcake faced numerous hurdles.

Diplomats and military leaders first weighed the idea of shipping the yellowcake overland to Kuwait's port on the Persian Gulf. Such a route, however, would pass through Iraq's Shiite heartland and within easy range of extremist factions, including some that Washington claims are aided by Iran. The ship also would need to clear the narrow Strait of Hormuz at the mouth of the Gulf, where U.S. and Iranian ships often come in close contact.

Kuwaiti authorities, too, were reluctant to open their borders to the shipment despite top-level lobbying from Washington.

An alternative plan took shape: shipping out the yellowcake on cargo planes.

But the yellowcake still needed a final destination. Iraqi government officials sought buyers on the commercial market, where uranium prices spiked at about $120 per pound last year. It's currently selling for about half that. The Cameco deal was reached earlier this year, the official said.

At that point, U.S.-led crews began removing the yellowcake from the Saddam-era containers — some leaking or weakened by corrosion — and reloading the material into about 3,500 secure barrels.

In April, truck convoys started moving the yellowcake from Tuwaitha to Baghdad's international airport, the official said. Then, for two weeks in May, it was ferried in 37 flights to Diego Garcia, a speck of British territory in the Indian Ocean where the U.S. military maintains a base.

On June 3, an American ship left the island for Montreal, said the official, who declined to give further details about the operation.

The yellowcake wasn't the only dangerous item removed from Tuwaitha.

Earlier this year, the military withdrew four devices for controlled radiation exposure from the former nuclear complex. The lead-enclosed irradiation units, used to decontaminate food and other items, contain elements of high radioactivity that could potentially be used in a weapon, according to the official. Their Ottawa-based manufacturer, MDS Nordion, took them back for free, the official said.

The yellowcake was the last major stockpile from Saddam's nuclear efforts, but years of final cleanup is ahead for Tuwaitha and other smaller sites.

The U.N.'s International Atomic Energy Agency plans to offer technical expertise.

Last month, a team of Iraqi nuclear experts completed training in the Ukrainian ghost town of Pripyat, which once housed the Chernobyl workers before the deadly meltdown in 1986, said an IAEA official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the decontamination plan has not yet been publicly announced.

But the job ahead is enormous, complicated by digging out radioactive "hot zones" entombed in concrete during Saddam's rule, said the IAEA official. Last year, an IAEA safety expert, Dennis Reisenweaver, predicted the cleanup could take "many years."

The yellowcake issue also is one of the many troubling footnotes of the war for Washington.

A CIA officer, Valerie Plame, claimed her identity was leaked to journalists to retaliate against her husband, former Ambassador Joe Wilson, who wrote that he had found no evidence to support assertions that Iraq tried to buy additional yellowcake from Niger.

A federal investigation led to the conviction of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice.

[Spider]

question is , Did Hans Blix know of this ?

[baja]

Question is was this yellow cake a sufficient reason for Bush to demand an attack because the mushroom cloud was so eminent that we could not spare two more months to let Blix finish the investigation.?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

question is , Did Hans Blix know of this ?...

Despite all the hubbub (http://www.slate.com/id/2085848/) over Saddam Hussein's efforts to buy yellowcake, the stuff is by no means a rare commodity. Worldwide production is currently around 64,000 tons per year, and that's sure to rise as Central Asian nations like Kazakhstan begin to expand their uranium-mining industries. (By comparison, about 45,000 tons of tungsten, vital to the steel industry, is produced annually.) The competition has depressed yellowcake prices just a tad in recent months; a pound now costs about $10.90, down a dime from what it was trading for this spring.

[Spider]

...

Thats it ?
I guess I need to learn what Yellow cake is ... I thought it was more of a controlled substance

[jhat01]

Question is was this yellow cake a sufficient reason for Bush to demand an attack because the mushroom cloud was so eminent that we could not spare two more months to let Blix finish the investigation.?

He has yellowcake for brain matter...

[Spider]

I should read my own links better ......... Israeli warplanes bombed a reactor project at the site in 1981. Later, U.N. inspectors documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the official said.

[spdirty]

why do they call it yellow cake?

[TDmvp]

why do they call it yellow cake?

if you was really asking ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/graphics/2007/04/11/cnuranium11.jpg
http://i.timeinc.net/time/covers/1101030721/popup/images/uranium.jpg

in the first one it kinda shows how it cakes up...

[cutthemdown]

We were wrong and we were right. Saddam didn't have an active program for nukes but still a lot of remnants of the old program. No doubt he would have tried again after sanctions were lifted.

[cutthemdown]

Question is was this yellow cake a sufficient reason for Bush to demand an attack because the mushroom cloud was so eminent that we could not spare two more months to let Blix finish the investigation.?

I think that Bush felt Saddam was playing the UN to the point eventually sanctions would be lifted and then he would start up again. Hans Blix was a total joke though. I mean Iraq intell played him like a harp running around the country like a moron.

You seriously don't respect Hans Blix do you? That dude was a total chump.

[TailgateNut]

I think that Bush felt Saddam was playing the UN to the point eventually sanctions would be lifted and then he would start up again. Hans Blix was a total joke though. I mean Iraq intell played him like a harp running around the country like a moron.

You seriously don't respect Hans Blix do you? That dude was a total chump.


In your eyes he wouldn't have been a chump if he had just conjured up a report which would have supported Bushs' false claims.

[TailgateNut]

[QUOTE=cutthemdown;1999492]We were wrong and we were right. QUOTE]


We went north while traveling south!LOL

[Bronco Jamus]

In your eyes he wouldn't have been a chump if he had just conjured up a report which would have supported Bushs' false claims.

Hmmm. They don't sound so "false" anymore.

[DenverBrit]

Hmmm. They don't sound so "false" anymore.

Question is, how long would it have taken Iraq to create the infrastructure needed to make anything weapons grade?

[Bronco Jamus]

Question is, how long would it have taken Iraq to create the infrastructure needed to make anything weapons grade?

Depends on cash flow and what they could buy on the market I suppose. They'd be halfway there by now if allowed to get moving again, IMO.

[DenverBrit]

We were wrong and we were right. Saddam didn't have an active program for nukes but still a lot of remnants of the old program. No doubt he would have tried again after sanctions were lifted.

Apparently, the yellowcake was well documented by inspectors and stored in containers well before the1991 Gulf War.

Hardly justification for an invasion.

[Dudeskey]

if you was really asking ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/graphics/2007/04/11/cnuranium11.jpg
http://i.timeinc.net/time/covers/1101030721/popup/images/uranium.jpg

in the first one it kinda shows how it cakes up...

looks almost the same color as flyash

[Bronco Jamus]

Apparently, the yellowcake was well documented by inspectors and stored in containers well before the1991 Gulf War.

Hardly justification for an invasion.

Yes and no. Had they resumed weapons building it would have been a problem eventually, but there was no assurance that they would. There was also no immediate threat.

[DenverBrit]

Depends on cash flow and what they could buy on the market I suppose. They'd be halfway there by now if allowed to get moving again, IMO.

You have to keep in mind that that stuff had been lying around long before the '91 Gulf War, but no attempt at building any kind of enrichment facility had been made since 1981, when Israel bombed his last facility.

[DenverBrit]

Yes and no. Had they resumed weapons building it would have been a problem eventually, but there was no assurance that they would. There was also no immediate threat.

Exactly.

[Tombstone RJ]

Thank God for the Israelis. They knew Saddam's intentions and bombed the nuclear facility before Iraq could build a nuclear bomb. The Israelis crippled Saddams program so bad, it never recovered.

I tend to trust the Israelis if they think Iran is going down the same road.

[Hotrod]

I can buy a **** load of yellow cake.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/10/27/1161972486_6079.jpg

[ak1971]

I prefer Chocolate.

[baja]

Yes and no. Had they resumed weapons building it would have been a problem eventually, but there was no assurance that they would. There was also no immediate threat.

Tell me something Bronco Jughead you really think this information in the thread title justifies this war Bush started? Please think before you answer.

[Bronco Jamus]

Tell me something Bronco Jughead you really think this information in the thread title justifies this war Bush started? Please think before you answer.

I don't answer people that insult others. I just put them on ignore. You can join the trucker.

[Hotrod]

I don't answer people that insult others. I just put them on ignore. You can join the trucker.

LOL

The trucker

[baja]

I don't answer people that insult others. I just put them on ignore. You can join the trucker.

You'll have to put yourself on ignore than

[baja]

I don't answer people that insult others. I just put them on ignore. You can join the trucker.

And I know you don't have me on ignore because I can still neg reb you ;D

[Northman]

The Trucker. lmao Bwahhahahahahahahahaahaahaa


Cant even call him by his name anymore. Im just going to call him The Trucker. Thats Grand. haha

[cutthemdown]

If your President you don't have the luxury of waiting 10 yrs to see if he starts again. As President it's your job to make sure crazy people who hate us don't get Nukes. I know some of you don't like the way the world is. You wish it wasn't might makes right and power makes policy. You wish it wasn't a world where one country's ideals are more important because they have more power.

Just be glad you are in a country that does the pushing and quit your whining all the time about Saddam being taken out. The workd is far better off without him and Iraq isn't in all that bad of shape anymore.

Even your man Obama will get in office and push people around. Probab,y not same people Repubs like to push but he will push nonetheless.

[cutthemdown]

The Trucker. lmao Bwahhahahahahahahahaahaahaa


Cant even call him by his name anymore. Im just going to call him The Trucker. Thats Grand. haha

Looks like we got ourselves a convoy.

[TailgateNut]

If your President you don't have the luxury of waiting 10 yrs to see if he starts again. As President it's your job to make sure crazy people who hate us don't get Nukes. I know some of you don't like the way the world is. You wish it wasn't might makes right and power makes policy. You wish it wasn't a world where one country's ideals are more important because they have more power.

Just be glad you are in a country that does the pushing and quit your whining all the time about Saddam being taken out. The workd is far better off without him and Iraq isn't in all that bad of shape anymore.

Even your man Obama will get in office and push people around. Probab,y not same people Repubs like to push but he will push nonetheless.


Good grief. WTF are you trying to convey?

Try using some of these: , . ! ' ;D ....and speak ****ing english!

[alkemical]

If your President you don't have the luxury of waiting 10 yrs to see if he starts again. As President it's your job to make sure crazy people who hate us don't get Nukes. I know some of you don't like the way the world is. You wish it wasn't might makes right and power makes policy. You wish it wasn't a world where one country's ideals are more important because they have more power.

Just be glad you are in a country that does the pushing and quit your whining all the time about Saddam being taken out. The workd is far better off without him and Iraq isn't in all that bad of shape anymore.

Even your man Obama will get in office and push people around. Probab,y not same people Repubs like to push but he will push nonetheless.



So, when do i have to start wearing "flair"?

[Rigs11]

If your President you don't have the luxury of waiting 10 yrs to see if he starts again. As President it's your job to make sure crazy people who hate us don't get Nukes. I know some of you don't like the way the world is. You wish it wasn't might makes right and power makes policy. You wish it wasn't a world where one country's ideals are more important because they have more power.

Just be glad you are in a country that does the pushing and quit your whining all the time about Saddam being taken out. The workd is far better off without him and Iraq isn't in all that bad of shape anymore.

Even your man Obama will get in office and push people around. Probab,y not same people Repubs like to push but he will push nonetheless.

what a load of crap. If you're president you have the ability to lead by example.that's what america used to do. No longer is it respected, but merely feared.this tough guy attitude reaks of incompetence. Anyone with might can bully other nations around.Amazing that you still can't comprehend that it wasn't just about toppling hussein but what that did to the country as a whole. there are still people being blown up, many still do not have running water or electricity.How is the world better off? Is iraq more or less stable than when hussein was in power? and don't come in here with your crap about how he killed people.We know he did, and yet how many have died since he was removed?

[TailgateNut]

what a load of crap. If you're president you have the ability to lead by example.that's what america used to do. No longer is it respected, but merely feared.this tough guy attitude reaks of incompetence. Anyone with might can bully other nations around.Amazing that you still can't comprehend that it wasn't just about toppling hussein but what that did to the country as a whole. there are still people being blown up, many still do not have running water or electricity.How is the world better off? Is iraq more or less stable than when hussein was in power? and don't come in here with your crap about how he killed people.We know he did, and yet how many have died since he was removed?


expecting people with tunnel vision to see the WHOLE picture is fruitless.

[Bronco Jamus]

what a load of crap. If you're president you have the ability to lead by example.that's what america used to do. No longer is it respected, but merely feared.this tough guy attitude reaks of incompetence. Anyone with might can bully other nations around.Amazing that you still can't comprehend that it wasn't just about toppling hussein but what that did to the country as a whole. there are still people being blown up, many still do not have running water or electricity.How is the world better off? Is iraq more or less stable than when hussein was in power? and don't come in here with your crap about how he killed people.We know he did, and yet how many have died since he was removed?

I agree with some of your post, but:

How many won't die?

We are all better off without Saddam Hussein. The guy was evil and robbing his country.

[TailgateNut]

We are all better off without Saddam Hussein. The guy was evil and robbing his country.


Same will be said about Bush in the not so distant future.:thumbsup:

[alkemical]

<embed FlashVars='videoId=11923' src='http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewide/video_player/view/default/swf.jhtml' quality='high' bgcolor='#cccccc' width='332' height='316' name='comedy_central_player' align='middle' allowScriptAccess='always' allownetworking='external' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' pluginspage='http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer'></embed>

[cutthemdown]

America has always been a bully. We are what we are because we have been the biggest baddest bullies in the New World. I'm just pointing it out to all of you. You argue it's a Bush thing? Many Presidents have used American muscle to bully other countries around and the next President will do the same thing.

I agree Bush had no tact and wasn't very subtle in the way he handled things. A better President would keep rhetoric to a minimum and just handle business.

I'm only arguing that you people now don't like what made America powerful in the first place and that's using it's shear might to take land by force, expand our borders, secure resources and gain influence in other countries.

[cutthemdown]

Same will be said about Bush in the not so distant future.:thumbsup:

I'm not so sure about that. As time passes the horror of the war will be less. It will read how our army swept through Iraq and kicked ass, the surge worked and Bush was able to install a stable govt. N Korea started to cooperate about as much as any President could hope for. Lybia gave up nuclear program and he actually did some decent work in Africa. He did more in Africa then any other President by some accounts.

Hell even Carter not looked at as bad as he was right when Reagan came in.

[alkemical]

America has always been a bully. We are what we are because we have been the biggest baddest bullies in the New World. I'm just pointing it out to all of you. You argue it's a Bush thing? Many Presidents have used American muscle to bully other countries around and the next President will do the same thing.

I agree Bush had no tact and wasn't very subtle in the way he handled things. A better President would keep rhetoric to a minimum and just handle business.

I'm only arguing that you people now don't like what made America powerful in the first place and that's using it's shear might to take land by force, expand our borders, secure resources and gain influence in other countries.

So it's ok if next time i want to rape and pillage - it's ok when i stop by your house first.

[cutthemdown]

So it's ok if next time i want to rape and pillage - it's ok when i stop by your house first.

your turning it into something I didn't say.

[cutthemdown]

So it's ok if next time i want to rape and pillage - it's ok when i stop by your house first.

and like I said might can do that but in our country the justice system and morality are more powerful then most people want to tangle with when it comes to coming to my house first. That and I would just just shoot you. That's my right to protect myself which is something all Americans have.

[TailgateNut]

I'm not so sure about that. As time passes the horror of the war will be less. It will read how our army swept through Iraq and kicked ass, the surge worked and Bush was able to install a stable govt. N Korea started to cooperate about as much as any President could hope for. Lybia gave up nuclear program and he actually did some decent work in Africa. He did more in Africa then any other President by some accounts.

Hell even Carter not looked at as bad as he was right when Reagan came in.


NO, as time passes, we will have to face caring for the tens of thousands who were injured during Bushs' adventure. We will have to deal with the costs of this war, and we'll finally have to confront the damage it has done to our economy and standing in the world.

You just keep thinking like the big bully in school who flexes his muscles and scares everyone. The problem with that is, eventually someone steps up and smacks him in the mouth.

Reality will smack us in the mouth.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Same will be said about Bush in the not so distant future.:thumbsup:

:yep:

In the meantime, watching these half-wits try to defend a thoroughly discredited president, party, and "movement" makes for some great comedy. :giggle:

[Bronco Jamus]

You have to keep in mind that that stuff had been lying around long before the '91 Gulf War, but no attempt at building any kind of enrichment facility had been made since 1981, when Israel bombed his last facility.

I jsut read that it wasn't weapons grade yellow cake anyway and we and everybody already knew about it. this is a bunch of nothing from a war justification perspective.

[That One Guy]

U.S. and Iraqi forces have guarded the 23,000-acre site — surrounded by huge sand berms — following a wave of looting after Saddam's fall that included villagers toting away yellowcake storage barrels for use as drinking water cisterns.

And that is why I love Iraqis...

On a serious note though, I spent 3 or 4 months working this area, particularly just across the river there, and had never even heard of this site. It's odd though that there's a town barely south of this site named Salman Pak that everyone drew outside their boundary lines because it was too much of a hassle to get to and secure. We did a few missions there but usually it just got the blind eye. They're very fortunate that this was able to keep such a low profile until now. While it sounds like its actual effects are limited, merely being a radiological attack would've been front pages around the world and a hysterical nightmare.

Unfortunately in today's world, it seems like presidents are getting it rough no matter what they do. Invade while Saddam generally has the means but isn't actually producing WMD and you invaded under false pretenses. Invade after he gets there and you risk them using those weapons and people will clamor, "why didn't we act sooner?' Basically you have to catch them as their hand goes into the cookie jar or someone will be upset.

[Atlas]

question is , Did Hans Blix know of this ?

This is old news. Everyone knew this stuff was in Iraq. It was there before the first Gulf War and was safeguarded by the U.N. You need to read the article.

Israeli warplanes bombed a reactor project at the site in 1981. Later, U.N. inspectors documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the official said.

[alkemical]

your turning it into something I didn't say.

Might makes "Right" man.

[alkemical]

and like I said might can do that but in our country the justice system and morality are more powerful then most people want to tangle with when it comes to coming to my house first. That and I would just just shoot you. That's my right to protect myself which is something all Americans have.

Remember that same POV when "we" invade someone else's house....

[cutthemdown]

arguing right and wrong is a totally different topic amesj523

My argument is the same people complaining about how America uses it's muscle are enjoying a life that is possible because of it. I would never venture to pretend I know whats right and what's wrong when it comes to how history has unfolded. It's just the way it is.

[cutthemdown]

NO, as time passes, we will have to face caring for the tens of thousands who were injured during Bushs' adventure. We will have to deal with the costs of this war, and we'll finally have to confront the damage it has done to our economy and standing in the world.

You just keep thinking like the big bully in school who flexes his muscles and scares everyone. The problem with that is, eventually someone steps up and smacks him in the mouth.

Reality will smack us in the mouth.

our standing in the world is fine. People know not to piss off now.

[cutthemdown]

You guys think any country wants to get caught supporting terrorists that attack America now? Hell no they don't.

[baja]

You guys think any country wants to get caught supporting terrorists that attack America now? Hell no they don't.

<b>You arrogant stupid little fool.</b>

Maybe you haven't noticed the mighty USA is 7 TRILLION DOLLARS upside down in trade deficit

The federal debt is 10 TRILLION DOLLARS

The Military is stretched to breaking and our boys are coming home seriously screwed up in the head

The economy is in the toilet

The US is the largest debtor nation in the world

The US is not even in the top 100 of healthy nations of the world

The federal government is broken.

There are atleast 5 foreign nations that can bring the US to her knees with the stroke of a pen.

And you dumb ass want to come off as the big bad guy that says, "Hey world get in line or we will put some Shock & Awe on your ass


It's your attitude and others like you that will be the death of this great nation

[TailgateNut]

our standing in the world is fine. People know not to piss off now.


You are one dumb SOB!

This stupid ass war has just about bankrupted our country while accomplishing absolutely nothing of value and you are celebrating.

[TailgateNut]

<b>You arrogant stupid little fool.</b>

Maybe you haven't noticed the mighty USA is 7 TRILLION DOLLARS upside down in trade deficit

The federal debt is 10 TRILLION DOLLARS

The Military is stretched to breaking and our boys are coming home seriously screwed up in the head

The economy is in the toilet

The US is the largest debtor nation in the world

The US is not even in the top 100 of healthy nations of the world

The federal government is broken.

There are atleast 5 foreign nations that can bring the US to her knees with the stroke of a pen.

And want to come off as the big bad guy that says, "Hey world get in line or we will put some Shock & Awe on your ass


It's your attitude and others like you will be the death of this great nation

Thank You!

He is what is wrong with our country. Sit back and hide behind mom while acting like he has a set!

[Rigs11]

our standing in the world is fine. People know not to piss off now.

This same Rambo mentality is what created the "terrorists" in the first place.Do you still believe that they hate us for our freedoms? Our standing in the world is ruined, just follow Bush around the world and see the massive demonstrations if you need proof.

[Atlas]

This same Rambo mentality is what created the "terrorists" in the first place.Do you still believe that they hate us for our freedoms? Our standing in the world is ruined, just follow Bush around the world and see the massive demonstrations if you need proof.

Hey Rigs, now I'm against anything Bush has and will do, but if he sent in Rambo I would be all for that. Have you seen that guy he is amazing. I bet he never got captured in Vietnam and sat in a prison for 5 years without escaping.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You are one dumb SOB!

This stupid ass war has just about bankrupted our country while accomplishing absolutely nothing of value and you are celebrating.

QFT.

I have to chuckle at his comment that "now people know better than to piss us off" or words to that effect.

Meanwhile, here in reality, the smart people among our enemies (who have multiplied exponentially in response to Bush's idiotic, failed policies) have sat back and watched the Kennebunkport Cowboy bankrupt the U.S. treasury while weakening our military to the point where we have national guardsmen serving back-to-back combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Bush is an inept poker player who has shown his hand to the world.

[Play2win]

I still think most of the world still **Wants** to follow our lead. If we ever got our sh!t together, most of the world would follow. That means getting rid of BUSH (ie., McCain) and the BUSH mentality (NEO-CONS), instilling a positive leadership to this country and getting the economy rolling again. Of course this won't happen overnight, it will take (a few or, maybe, many) years. I believe if we did this, (most of) the rest of the world would follow our lead.


Call me an optimist at heart, but that is what I believe. It will just take time and it will take some hard work, but I believe, eventually, we can be well thought of and admired throughout the world again, which is only to our added benefit.

[alkemical]

arguing right and wrong is a totally different topic amesj523

My argument is the same people complaining about how America uses it's muscle are enjoying a life that is possible because of it. I would never venture to pretend I know whats right and what's wrong when it comes to how history has unfolded. It's just the way it is.



No, it's not about right and wrong. It's about the golden rule. You either live fully to it, or you are a hypocrite. You are a hypocrite.

[alkemical]

You guys think any country wants to get caught supporting terrorists that attack America now? Hell no they don't.

Turn about is fair play.

[Bronco Jamus]

I still think most of the world still **Wants** to follow our lead. If we ever got our sh!t together, most of the world would follow. That means getting rid of BUSH (ie., McCain) and the BUSH mentality (NEO-CONS), instilling a positive leadership to this country and getting the economy rolling again. Of course this won't happen overnight, it will take (a few or, maybe, many) years. I believe if we did this, (most of) the rest of the world would follow our lead.


Call me an optimist at heart, but that is what I believe. It will just take time and it will take some hard work, but I believe, eventually, we can be well thought of and admired throughout the world again, which is only to our added benefit.

You are talking about something so subjective. I would imagine that most people don't care about us or what we do throughout the world. Mainly because they are people like you and me trying to live their lives.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I'm not so sure about that. As time passes the horror of the war will be less. No it will be more, a lot more, especially to the hundreds of thousands of soldiers disabled by it (and the trillions it will costs future generations).

It will read how our army swept through Iraq and kicked ass, the surge worked and Bush was able to install a stable govt. Iraq just demanded the U.S. leave on a set timetable. Then the religious nutbags there will start over again with support from Iran.

N Korea started to cooperate about as much as any President could hope for. Which so far is nothing but promises to do so.

Lybia gave up nuclear program and he actually did some decent work in Africa. He did more in Africa then any other President by some accounts. Uh, Bush has done nothing in Africa, nothing.

Hell even Carter not looked at as bad as he was right when Reagan came in.Lived through both economies and Reagan's was, by far the worse one.

[Drek]

our standing in the world is fine. People know not to piss off now.

Are you 12?

Also, yellow cake uranium is nothing. It can't be used in an atomic bomb, other than filler, and there was none of the dozens of many key ingredients needed to to build an actual nuclear weapon mentioned in this article.

Hell, I could probably get yellow cake tomorrow, simply on the virtue of being an environmental professional. Its not like we're talking about pure weapons grade uranium or plutonium. Did they even find some ignitors like deuterium and/or tritium?

Its the equivalent of having gasoline so you get convicted of arson. In this case the arsonist was a known murderer so I'm not going to yell too much, but that is what this ultimately amounts to.

[orinjkrush]

we were right going in.
we were right taking down Saddam and his saddistic sons.
We were wrong stopping when we did.
We should have gone to Tehran immediately.
Then we should have gone to Damascus.
If we had, five years ago, the Middle East would be begging us for forgiveness.

[jhat01]

we were right going in.
we were right taking down Saddam and his saddistic sons.
We were wrong stopping when we did.
We should have gone to Tehran immediately.
Then we should have gone to Damascus.
If we had, five years ago, the Middle East would be begging us for forgiveness.

I hope you have fire retardant underwear on

[orinjkrush]

I hope you have fire retardant underwear on

Nomex. thanx for asking! :rofl:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

we were right going in.
we were right taking down Saddam and his saddistic sons.

No one is going to shed any tears for Saddam and his sons, but why us?

Why do we insist on being the world's policeman?

We should have gone to Tehran immediately.
Then we should have gone to Damascus.
If we had, five years ago, the Middle East would be begging us for forgiveness.

And occupy both of those countries indefinitely (while fighting insurgencies) as well?

Are you sure about that?

[Drek]

No one is going to shed any tears for Saddam and his sons, but why us?

Why do we insist on being the world's policeman?


We're a superior nation economically and militarily. I'd say its our responsibility to police those nations that are under extremist dictator rule that commits violent crimes against its own people.

We should be one of the world's primary policemen. We shouldn't however be a unilaterally moving, obtuse minded lone gunman who solves all of these dilemmas with no assistance from our equally developed nations. We're not a lot different from the dictators we're deposing when we do that.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

We're a superior nation economically and militarily.

Correction: We were a superior nation economically and militarily - until Bush and the neocons came along.

[Drek]

Correction: We were a superior nation economically and militarily - until Bush and the neocons came along.

So you think we're worse off now than Iraq, the Congo, etc.?

I have a hard time seeing that.

[That One Guy]

And occupy both of those countries indefinitely (while fighting insurgencies) as well?

Are you sure about that?

Vietnam showed the world that to win any war, you must have objectives. The objective of WWII was to destroy our opponents and bring them to their knees in surrender. Forces went in, destroyed infrastructure and, when necessary, attacked countries as a whole rather than strategic targets (think carpet bombing, nukes, etc).

Where is the objective in the current war? That's why it must continue, there still isn't one. If the objective was, as the poster you replied to suggested, to make the Middle East beg us for forgiveness, that'd be easy. You bomb their women, children, homes, and churches until they just beg for forgiveness. Now, I'm not saying that should be done, but if the previous poster wanted to make the ME fall to their knees pleading, that's easy to do. It's all a matter of what you're willing to swallow in order to achieve the objective.

If you're willing to be ruthless (wow, I never knew that's how that word was spelled, how strange), winning a war and subduing the population is very, very simple.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So you think we're worse off now than Iraq, the Congo, etc.?

I have a hard time seeing that.

No - I didn't say we were worse off than those countries.

My point was that, thanks to Napoleon Bonehead, America is no longer the economic and military powerhouse we once were.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Vietnam showed the world that to win any war, you must have objectives. The objective of WWII was to destroy our opponents and bring them to their knees in surrender. Forces went in, destroyed infrastructure and, when necessary, attacked countries as a whole rather than strategic targets (think carpet bombing, nukes, etc).

Where is the objective in the current war? That's why it must continue, there still isn't one. If the objective was, as the poster you replied to suggested, to make the Middle East beg us for forgiveness, that'd be easy. You bomb their women, children, homes, and churches until they just beg for forgiveness. Now, I'm not saying that should be done, but if the previous poster wanted to make the ME fall to their knees pleading, that's easy to do. It's all a matter of what you're willing to swallow in order to achieve the objective.

If you're willing to be ruthless (wow, I never knew that's how that word was spelled, how strange), winning a war and subduing the population is very, very simple.

Very well-argued points, and I quite agree.

The points you raise serve to further illustrate the similarities between Iraq and Vietnam (another war of choice that was meant to be sustained as long as possible - not "won.")

[Drek]

No - I didn't say we were worse off than those countries.

My point was that, thanks to Napoleon Bonehead, America is no longer the economic and military powerhouse we once were.

Obviously, but we should be willing to sacrifice some short term wealth to assist the mistreated.

It should be us, but it shouldn't be us alone.

It needs to be less Robocop and more Law and Order. Let our (former?) allies play ball with us, not just us stomping through with guns blazing, leaving a husk of a country, and saying "you're welcome" as we walk out the door.

That is a better end result for us all around. Fewer Americans die, less of our tax dollars go into foreign economies that don't benefit us, and our relations with our foreign partners are strengthened. At the same time we remove a blight upon humankind.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Obviously, but we should be willing to sacrifice some short term wealth to assist the mistreated.

It should be us, but it shouldn't be us alone.

It needs to be less Robocop and more Law and Order. Let our (former?) allies play ball with us, not just us stomping through with guns blazing, leaving a husk of a country, and saying "you're welcome" as we walk out the door.

That is a better end result for us all around. Fewer Americans die, less of our tax dollars go into foreign economies that don't benefit us, and our relations with our foreign partners are strengthened. At the same time we remove a blight upon humankind.

I can co-sign most of the above.

The picture you paint is a far cry from Bush's policy of unilateralism, invasion and democracy at gunpoint.

[Crushaholic]

Same will be said about Bush in the not so distant future.:thumbsup:

I must have missed this thread. However, I have to respond to this comment. We get mandatory turnover in presidents every 8 years. The Iraqi people didn't have that option with Hussein. The tyrant who was hostile to the United States could only be taken out by the might of the U.S. military...

[TailgateNut]

I must have missed this thread. However, I have to respond to this comment. We get mandatory turnover in presidents every 8 years. The Iraqi people didn't have that option with Hussein. The tyrant who was hostile to the United States could only be taken out by the might of the U.S. military...


Puleeze. Who the **** made it our responsibilty to take care of the "poor Iraquis" to the tune of 3 Trillion and counting? Not to mention the dead, maimed and mentaly unstable soldiers.

[kappys]

I must have missed this thread. However, I have to respond to this comment. We get mandatory turnover in presidents every 8 years. The Iraqi people didn't have that option with Hussein. The tyrant who was hostile to the United States could only be taken out by the might of the U.S. military...

Or we could have supported pro-democracy groups within Iraq. Dictators are overthrown all the time without US military invasion

[TailgateNut]

Or we could have supported pro-democracy groups within Iraq. Dictators are overthrown all the time without US military invasion


But that would not have lined the coffers of the "halliburtons" and "blackwaters". Bush had to take care of his buddies at the expense of the common man.

[sisterhellfyre]

[QUOTE=cutthemdown;1999492]We were wrong and we were right. QUOTE]


We went north while traveling south!LOL

If you go far enough north, you end up south. Does that count?

Regards,
m.

[TailgateNut]

[QUOTE=TailgateNut;1999569]

If you go far enough north, you end up south. Does that count?

Regards,
m.


Your "quote thingy" is broken!?

[Bronco Bob]

our standing in the world is fine. People know not to piss off now.

I guess someone forgot to tell the Russians.