Way OT: Ebay continues to get crappier

[Popps]

Not sure how many on here are regular sellers, but my business has me buying/selling a good deal of pro audio/AV gear.

Just logged in to find out that sellers can no longer leave feedback! ONLY buyers. Even worse, sellers can only leave positive feedback.

So, aside from Ebay and Paypal being overrun with scammers, now... Ebay has basically just said that someone can attempt to scam you, or take 10 days to pay you for an item, and you can't leave negative feedback.

It also means that if someone doesn't read your ad correctly, and buys something other than what they (mistakenly) thought they were buying... YOU are going to get bad feedback with no recourse to fight it.

I've sold hundreds of items with zero negative feedback. I attribute most of that to being painfully specific in my ads, and bending over backwards to accommodate buyers. But, I also attribute some of it to the old feedback structure facilitating an atmosphere were buyer and seller were prone to try to work things out in a friendly manner... because no one wanted negative feedback.

In any case, maybe no one else cares... but I've been a huge ebay user/fan, but it just keeps going downhill. I'm going to send a letter. Hopefully a few of you will, too.

[want2bAbronco2]

My friend at works makes a lot of extra cash on ebay. He has stopped using it and gone to another site (not sure where??). He sold a lady 5 glasses for 35$ and told her he would mail them off that day, something happened to his wife and he didnt mail them. Got up before work, went to mail them and when he checked his account the lady had called her credit card and cancealed the payment. Then she gave him NEGATIVE feed back for not sending the items! Ebay is screwing themselves, I can count at least 15 ppl that have stopped selling with them.

[TexanBob]

It's the nature of every creative business. Someone comes along and screws it up badly.

There was a Louisana company that used to make microwaved gumbo. I know it doesn't sound that appetizing but, trust me, it was easy to make and delicious.

The company was bought out by a larger company on the East Coast who totally ruined the recipe and, of course, discontinued the item claiming it wouldn't sell. Well, of course it wouldn't sell once the recipe was yankeefied.

Ebay was superb when it first began before the scammers could figure out a million ways to scam you and corporate heads came in to destroy the business like a termite does wood.

Sad, really. Hope you find a way to keep your biz afloat.

[That One Guy]

I like the new Ebay system, sellers killed the old way. If I buy something today and pay for it 2 hours from now, why do most sellers wait until I've left feedback to leave me feedback? They do it because they know that if I leave them bad, they can try and retaliate. For the feedback system to work, you have to be free to be honest. None of this would've been an issue if Ebay merely made people leave feedback in the order the transactions take place (i.e. buyer pays first, seller leaves feedback then when seller ships, buyer leaves feedback). Don't try and leave this at Ebay's doorsteps, sellers started it and new Ebay management just came up with the solution they deemed fit.

And Sellers can still leave positive or neutral, from what I was told, just no negative.

[broncosteven]

I hadn't used Ebay in a long time, I just last week sold and old Aardvark Q10 and a Novation Supernova II.

I am with Pops. If a buyer wants to ruin my Feedback rep and knows they will have nothing to fear the bad buyers will be finding way to scam on this.

As a seller I NEVER left any feedback until I got it 1st. I had a script I would send buyers stating thanks for purchase, if you liked my auction please leave feedback and I will do same in return.

I think some suit wanted to pump up the volume of sales buy letting the difficult buyers have their way with those that want to sell. I wonder if it does not become a more business orientated site with products only from larger distributors.

[Orange_Beard]

This is pretty old news.

There was a boycott a cople of weeks ago.

[broncosteven]

I like the new Ebay system, sellers killed the old way. If I buy something today and pay for it 2 hours from now, why do most sellers wait until I've left feedback to leave me feedback? They do it because they know that if I leave them bad, they can try and retaliate. For the feedback system to work, you have to be free to be honest. None of this would've been an issue if Ebay merely made people leave feedback in the order the transactions take place (i.e. buyer pays first, seller leaves feedback then when seller ships, buyer leaves feedback). Don't try and leave this at Ebay's doorsteps, sellers started it and new Ebay management just came up with the solution they deemed fit.

And Sellers can still leave positive or neutral, from what I was told, just no negative.

Dude, the seller is the one that holds the cards, i.e. $. The whole site was not based on instant gratification, if you want that go to the mall, the idea was for the little people to unload their old possessions and get a Fair Market value. Delivery was always best effort unless a buyer requested and Paid for next day or even Priority shipment.

I have bought a lot of stuff on Ebay, I have sold a lot more.

As a buyer I know I use Feedback to ensure that I get proper resolution to any issue. Once the transaction is completed to my satisfaction I leave seller feedback. If I get the item and have trouble I know I can leave appropriate feedback or threaten to until problem is resolved.

As a Seller I never leave feedback until I get it 1st. Just because someone pays does not mean they won't leave neg rep. I always say no returns, ask questions before you bid, but people still buy things not knowing what it does. As a seller I can only leave neg rep in order to get payment.

As a seller From now on I doubt I will bother leaving any buyer rep.

I think Ebay just screwed the pooch

[That One Guy]

I hadn't used Ebay in a long time, I just last week sold and old Aardvark Q10 and a Novation Supernova II.

I am with Pops. If a buyer wants to ruin my Feedback rep and knows they will have nothing to fear the bad buyers will be finding way to scam on this.

As a seller I NEVER left any feedback until I got it 1st. I had a script I would send buyers stating thanks for purchase, if you liked my auction please leave feedback and I will do same in return.

I think some suit wanted to pump up the volume of sales buy letting the difficult buyers have their way with those that want to sell. I wonder if it does not become a more business orientated site with products only from larger distributors.

Sellers have been using that same, worn out excuse forever. As if someone wakes up in the morning and goes browsing for items just so they can buy em and leave you bad feedback. If you do good service, why is someone you don't even know going to be spiteful and try to make you look bad? Are there that many cases of buyers remorse and you're just getting the brunt of it in your auction?

2 years ago, I bought a monitor off Ebay and when it got there, the monitor was fine except it didn't work. Turned out the circuit board inside was broken. I can't say whether it happened in shipping or before hand, no way to know, but the seller basically told me to F off. I could've probably paid another $30 and sent it back to him and fought for my money back... but that'd have seen me waste $60 total on shipping for a monitor I paid $40 for. In the end, I paid the $40, $30 for shipping, and another $50 for it to be repaired. If I'd left the seller bad feedback for resisting to work with me, any doubt in your mind I'd have gotten some too? The feedback system must be free of retaliation or it's nothing, just a bubble of happiness where noone's gonna complain because their feedback will inevitably be punished as well.

Again, tell me why if I pay first, I should have to leave you feedback before I get any. Short of being able to retaliate, where's the justification?

[broncocalijohn]

I used to sell a lot of my Angels season tickets on there (since most now go to stubhub). I dont like the fact that Ebay assumes all buyers are good and sellers are the ones who are at fault. I have had people purchase items than (duh) they dont have a Paypal account set up , but they want the tickets that day for the concert tomorrow. No problem, meet me at my office with cash and you can have the tickets. No show, but now no negative feedback. I always liked the way you can have a third party declare what was fair if a problem came up. Ive had one neg feedback in over 600 feedback transactions. Ive given more than 10 on non payments, slow payments, etc. That wont be an option since last month.

[That One Guy]

Dude, the seller is the one that holds the cards, i.e. $. The whole site was not based on instant gratification, if you want that go to the mall, the idea was for the little people to unload their old possessions and get a Fair Market value. Delivery was always best effort unless a buyer requested and Paid for next day or even Priority shipment.

I have bought a lot of stuff on Ebay, I have sold a lot more.

As a buyer I know I use Feedback to ensure that I get proper resolution to any issue. Once the transaction is completed to my satisfaction I leave seller feedback. If I get the item and have trouble I know I can leave appropriate feedback or threaten to until problem is resolved.

As a Seller I never leave feedback until I get it 1st. Just because someone pays does not mean they won't leave neg rep. I always say no returns, ask questions before you bid, but people still buy things not knowing what it does. As a seller I can only leave neg rep in order to get payment.

As a seller From now on I doubt I will bother leaving any buyer rep.

I think Ebay just screwed the pooch

I missed something, I'm not tracking on the instant gratification issue. I was merely using the 2 hour later reference to say I performed my obligations perfectly. At that point, I should be guaranteed good feedback. Now, if there's an issue with the item then that's a different story and that comes back to the seller's part of the deal. Ebay has a dispute option for bad feedback, I believe, but in any case to say that they'll just find a reason to leave bad feedback because they're ignorant means you (the seller) are now trying to assume the worst of the client. More often than not, the buyer should be aware of what they're getting and, in my own personal experience, does. Sure the issue may arise where there was some miscommunication or buyer assumptions but there's also cases where a seller deliberately misleads... that's just the kind of people that are out there. The majority of people aren't that way though and to say you aren't leaving feedback until they do incase they turn out to be that way is, as I said, a way to use retaliation on them if they aren't happy with you and nullifies the entire intent of the feedback system.

[That One Guy]

I used to sell a lot of my Angels season tickets on there (since most now go to stubhub). I dont like the fact that Ebay assumes all buyers are good and sellers are the ones who are at fault. I have had people purchase items than (duh) they dont have a Paypal account set up , but they want the tickets that day for the concert tomorrow. No problem, meet me at my office with cash and you can have the tickets. No show, but now no negative feedback. I always liked the way you can have a third party declare what was fair if a problem came up. Ive had one neg feedback in over 600 feedback transactions. Ive given more than 10 on non payments, slow payments, etc. That wont be an option since last month.

Definitely agreed that there are bad buyers out there and, as I've been ranting about, had sellers used it to rate the buyers rather than as leverage then there'd have been no issue in the first place. Ebay has now decided that a half effective feedback system is better than the complete farce that had been in place.

[theAPAOps5]

So what else is out there now? I have been researching my ass off for about a year and have found a good item to sell on Ebay and now all this scares me away. Is there anywhere else a person can go?

[That One Guy]

So what else is out there now? I have been researching my ass off for about a year and have found a good item to sell on Ebay and now all this scares me away. Is there anywhere else a person can go?

Google supposedly was trying to capitalize on the Ebay fiasco currently going on by offering a Goolge Auctions but it isn't going yet. A lot of stuff can be sold on Amazon but nowhere near as freely as Ebay and I really don't know how Amazon works, to be honest. Ebay usually works out well and it seems the ones who really get bent out of shape are the people selling trinkets and apparently thinking they're going to end up with a multi-million dollar enterprise. You're running an Ebay store from your basement, stop taking it so seriously... There's worse things in the world than getting bad feedback and not being able to retaliate. I've been a regular Ebay user for years now and have had mostly great experiences in buying and selling items.

[PaintballCLE]

ebay is garbage now....i will still buy on there.....but wont sell anything now......besides ebay gets their money from sellers (only) so they better be careful or else they are going to scare all their money away.

[broncosteven]

I missed something, I'm not tracking on the instant gratification issue. I was merely using the 2 hour later reference to say I performed my obligations perfectly. At that point, I should be guaranteed good feedback. Now, if there's an issue with the item then that's a different story and that comes back to the seller's part of the deal. Ebay has a dispute option for bad feedback, I believe, but in any case to say that they'll just find a reason to leave bad feedback because they're ignorant means you (the seller) are now trying to assume the worst of the client. More often than not, the buyer should be aware of what they're getting and, in my own personal experience, does. Sure the issue may arise where there was some miscommunication or buyer assumptions but there's also cases where a seller deliberately misleads... that's just the kind of people that are out there. The majority of people aren't that way though and to say you aren't leaving feedback until they do incase they turn out to be that way is, as I said, a way to use retaliation on them if they aren't happy with you and nullifies the entire intent of the feedback system.

It is all about protecting your rep.

There are both good and bad Sellers just as there are buyers.

Have you sold a large volume of items on Ebay?

If you have you will understand, this was a move to generate more buyers.

I for one have perfect feedback. I use it as a decision to make a purchase when I buy.

When I sell i use it to gauge if I am going to have any problems with the buyer.

I thought the old system was good by keeping nutjobs accountable on both sides.

Alot of times as a seller you get the people that click Buy it now then don't send the money for a couple of days same with regular auctions even when you click that all buyers need to pay with paypal...

[Popps]

And Sellers can still leave positive or neutral, from what I was told, just no negative.

Right, I understand the mindset behind it, but it's sort of like the mindset behind Communism. Might sound O.K. on paper, but doesn't work well in real life.

Sellers are going to get screwed here, badly. Here's a good example...

I just recently sold an old iBook. I mean old. Beat up, had issues and was advertised as such. But, it had value of a couple hundred in parts, minimum.
Well, some guy bought it... then wrote back later livid because it had the very issues I described in my ad. I also said it was an "as-is" auction and that it might be best for someone to part out. But, dip**** still bought it thinking he was getting a brand new Macbook Air.

So, he starts demanding a refund. I said, look... take it to an Apple store and have it diagnosed. They probably won't charge anything. (Or computer store of choice.) If there is any damage I didn't outline in my ad, I'll pay for it. I might even refund you some of the money anyway... if it can be easily fixed.

But, dip**** refused. So, for all I know... this dumbass could have dropped it off his kitchen table, and now just wants free money back for it. He filed a dispute. I answered, clearly outlining the clarity of my ad, and my willingness to even go the extra mile to help pay for repairs if he simply had it diagnosed. He refused.

Now, under the NEW set-up, I GUARANTEE you this guy would rip me six ways to Sunday. (He probably still will if this idiotic rule is backdated.)
But, he knew I'd tell the real story if he did so... so he didn't.

Like I said, if you've sold enough... you have to see how this is going be brutal on sellers. Buyers have NO accountability, and sellers can be ripped for any whim, mistake or scam a buyer wants to run.

I don't blame the guy above who looked for greener pastures.

[That One Guy]

ebay is garbage now....i will still buy on there.....but wont sell anything now......besides ebay gets their money from sellers (only) so they better be careful or else they are going to scare all their money away.

I almost wonder if Ebay isn't trying to go quality over quantity sometimes. There's so many people running Ebay stores that it gets outrageous. Have you seen how many people post vehicles that never sell? I'd say a good 80%+ never get a single bid because these people are trying to sell at dealer prices rather than Ebay prices. You put it in an auction, you'll always get less than if it sits on your lot until someone decides they want it that bad. Ebay has systems for these people to continue to relist their items for free a time or two if they didn't sell and I often get emails about items I've won and paid for being relisted. In the end, Ebay stores draw volume but they clutter up the site so bad it's getting out of hand. That, I believe, is part of the reason they upped seller fees when the recent changes went into effect. Originally Ebay was more of an auction site and less of a 'store' but it's really changed the last few years.

It doesn't seem to make sense from a business standpoint because those stores that are cluttering up are still paying for all that volume they post whether it sells or not but from an 'Ebay is turning into a joke' standpoint, Ebay can definitely stand to have that cut back some and unrealistic sellers driven away. Maybe that's their angle, less volume at higher prices wont drop income drastically but will clean up some of the clutter.

[That One Guy]

Right, I understand the mindset behind it, but it's sort of like the mindset behind Communism. Might sound O.K. on paper, but doesn't work well in real life.

Sellers are going to get screwed here, badly. Here's a good example...

I just recently sold an old iBook. I mean old. Beat up, had issues and was advertised as such. But, it had value of a couple hundred in parts, minimum.
Well, some guy bought it... then wrote back later livid because it had the very issues I described in my ad. I also said it was an "as-is" auction and that it might be best for someone to part out. But, dip**** still bought it thinking he was getting a brand new Macbook Air.

So, he starts demanding a refund. I said, look... take it to an Apple store and have it diagnosed. They probably won't charge anything. (Or computer store of choice.) If there is any damage I didn't outline in my ad, I'll pay for it. I might even refund you some of the money anyway... if it can be easily fixed.

But, dip**** refused. So, for all I know... this dumbass could have dropped it off his kitchen table, and now just wants free money back for it. He filed a dispute. I answered, clearly outlining the clarity of my ad, and my willingness to even go the extra mile to help pay for repairs if he simply had it diagnosed. He refused.

Now, under the NEW set-up, I GUARANTEE you this guy would rip me six ways to Sunday. (He probably still will if this idiotic rule is backdated.)
But, he knew I'd tell the real story if he did so... so he didn't.

Like I said, if you've sold enough... you have to see how this is going be brutal on sellers. Buyers have NO accountability, and sellers can be ripped for any whim, mistake or scam a buyer wants to run.

I don't blame the guy above who looked for greener pastures.

Isn't there a dispute option where you can say "these are his issues" and "here's what I said was wrong with it in the ad" and they can resolve it and clear the feedback? I don't believe I've ever gotten bad so I haven't had to use it but I believe there's some sort of resolution process to it. If there's not, that's definitely a glaring problem and Ebay would definitely be missing there.

[Popps]

If you have you will understand, this was a move to generate more buyers.
.

Bingo. Was just having this conversation with someone else. It's so transparent.

I'm also absolutely positive that Ebay turns a blind eye to the THOUSANDS of scam ads on their site at any time. You know, the brand new 50" Plasma TVs for $300. 24" iMacs for $600. Etc.

[That One Guy]

It is all about protecting your rep.

There are both good and bad Sellers just as there are buyers.

Have you sold a large volume of items on Ebay?

If you have you will understand, this was a move to generate more buyers.

I for one have perfect feedback. I use it as a decision to make a purchase when I buy.

When I sell i use it to gauge if I am going to have any problems with the buyer.

I thought the old system was good by keeping nutjobs accountable on both sides.

Alot of times as a seller you get the people that click Buy it now then don't send the money for a couple of days same with regular auctions even when you click that all buyers need to pay with paypal...

I understand it ties your hands and is unfair as a seller. My argument is that it's necessary though to establish any validity to the feedback system. Just as you said, it keeps both nutjobs in check but there shouldn't be any checks other than a mediating authority for bad feedback. I guarantee you it was changed because there were too many "buyer left me bad feedback, so I'm doing the same" justified negative feedbacks than that Ebay just wants to shield their buyers from responsibility. They probably didn't post that was why they left the bad feedback, but I'd bet the percentage of bad feedback prompting bad feedback and good prompting good was outrageously high and then the system is pointless.

And under the username it doesn't say anything about bad feedback until the profile page, it says how much is GOOD. So you can't leave the buyer bad feedback but you CAN affect his % of good feedback. That's basically the same as leaving bad as anyone wanting to investigate further would have to open the profile and would, therefore, be capable of reading the comments left. So, in reality, it doesn't change anything... even for what I was saying it would do.

[Popps]

Isn't there a dispute option where you can say "these are his issues" and "here's what I said was wrong with it in the ad" and they can resolve it and clear the feedback? I don't believe I've ever gotten bad so I haven't had to use it but I believe there's some sort of resolution process to it. If there's not, that's definitely a glaring problem and Ebay would definitely be missing there.

I just actually had a non-paying, non-responsive winner. As far as I can tell, all I can do is file dispute. (Non-payment, fraudulent, etc.) But, I don't see any way to flag this guy or give him negative feedback, which he absolutely deserves.

Now, this guy is free to go on continuing to place winning bids on items that he has no intention of buying. Why this is fun, I have no idea.

But, guess who gets to keep those listing fees? EBAY! That's right, you can go through a long-ass process to get your final value fees back, but you have to pay again to list, and I'm sure plenty of people just don't bother with the final value refund. Again... Ebay wins when the seller loses.

[That One Guy]

Bingo. Was just having this conversation with someone else. It's so transparent.

I'm also absolutely positive that Ebay turns a blind eye to the THOUSANDS of scam ads on their site at any time. You know, the brand new 50" Plasma TVs for $300. 24" iMacs for $600. Etc.

I don't get it. How can you figure this would generate more buyers short of MAYBE making the buyers more satisfied with their experience which should be the ultimate goal anyways. From the start, sellers are motivated by money to post their items... a good experience has to be slightly geared towards the buyer to provide them incentive to use the venue. On that fact, I understand. Outside of that, how does this supposed release from responsibility attact new customers? It seems that if you're the kind of person who is going to win an auction and then not pay, you're probably not overly concerned about your feedback rating either. I don't get it.

[BroncoBuff]

My friend at works makes a lot of extra cash on ebay. He has stopped using it and gone to another site (not sure where??).
It's possible your friend is not changing sites voluntarily. eBay started purging thousands of accounts last fall, using a new "90 day snapshot" standard of review. Accounts with overall histories of even over 98 or 99% positive have been purged based on falling below a "90-day snapshot" minimum standard. There was a Daily Journal (legal) article about the practice a few months ago, and the potential for eBay liability here. Something about the User feedback profiles displaying only a "6 Month" history, but now judging on the 3-month standard. Plus there's a reliance argument in contract law. That is, eBay has long promo'd itself using terms like "partnership" with retailers and sellers, and this new practice undercuts long-term relationships, the terms of which Users (sellers) have relied upon to build their businesses.

Of course Yahoo Auctions wasted millions tying to compete with eBay starting in 1999, and they finally closed about a year ago ... right about the time eBay started cracking down on sellers.

Is that a coincidence? hmmm...

Methinks no.

[Popps]

I I guarantee you it was changed because there were too many "buyer left me bad feedback, so I'm doing the same" .

Even if that's the case, I'd argue the it's still more legitimate that only assuming the SELLER is capable of wrongdoing.

Again, I've sold hundreds of items and never had a complaint, and I bust my ass to make people happy. Conversely, I've had a decent number of scammers and really bad buyers, people who used unverified Paypal accounts, etc.

So, buyers can be just as detrimental as sellers.

Again, pretty much proving the point that Ebay just wants to generate money, even at the expense of sellers getting screwed, scammed, etc.

How on earth can you set up a 2-party system between individuals that doesn't allow one party a say?

It's like only allowing the plaintiff to tell their side. Silly.

[BroncoBuff]

People have been pressing Google to get in the business for awhile now:

http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2006/08/15/ebay-vendors-call-for-google-auction-site

[That One Guy]

Even if that's the case, I'd argue the it's still more legitimate that only assuming the SELLER is capable of wrongdoing.

Again, I've sold hundreds of items and never had a complaint, and I bust my ass to make people happy. Conversely, I've had a decent number of scammers and really bad buyers, people who used unverified Paypal accounts, etc.

So, buyers can be just as detrimental as sellers.

Again, pretty much proving the point that Ebay just wants to generate money, even at the expense of sellers getting screwed, scammed, etc.

How on earth can you set up a 2-party system between individuals that doesn't allow one party a say?

It's like only allowing the plaintiff to tell their side. Silly.

I completely disagree. As it is now, if I (the buyer) have a terrible experience with you (the seller) then I can honestly leave feedback.

As it was before, I had to choose to essentially give myself bad feedback or give you good feedback for the sake of preserving mine. Feedback is about evaluation and responsibility for performing your part of the deal, not about self preservation of your rating.

At least in the new feedback system, seller ratings will honestly reflect how happy a buyer was with their experience. Yesterday's system was all about the "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" system.

It's kinda like rep here on the mane. Once upon a time it could've been used to actually gauge a poster's input and resourcefulness as seen by other posters. Now there's so many games being played with it and "you left me neg rep, I'm gonna find one of your posts and do the same" that it's just a game that some people build up to brag about or make themselves feel better.

[That One Guy]

It's possible your friend is not changing sites voluntarily. eBay started purging thousands of accounts last fall, using a new "90 day snapshot" standard of review. Accounts with overall histories of even over 98 or 99% positive have been purged based on falling below a "90-day snapshot" minimum standard. There was a Daily Journal (legal) article about the practice a few months ago, and the potential for eBay liability here. Something about the User feedback profiles displaying only a "6 Month" history, but now judging on the 3-month standard. Plus there's a reliance argument in contract law. That is, eBay has long promo'd itself using terms like "partnership" with retailers and sellers, and this new practice undercuts long-term relationships, the terms of which Users (sellers) have relied upon to build their businesses.

Of course Yahoo Auctions wasted millions tying to compete with eBay starting in 1999, and they finally closed about a year ago ... right about the time eBay started cracking down on sellers.

Is that a coincidence? hmmm...

Methinks no.

Yahoo auctions was a joke.

As for the rest, I'm a freakin' public school grad. I think I made out that Ebay made someone mad?

[Popps]

I don't get it. How can you figure this would generate more buyers short of MAYBE making the buyers more satisfied with

Two reasons...

1. If I leave a negative feedback for someone who was a poor buyer, it's just a negative feedback... period. It means they're a bad Ebay'er. So, when THEY go to SELL something next time, people see they've had problems. Less people are likely to bid, meaning prices stay lower... meaning (you guessed it)... Ebay makes less on the transaction.

2. Sellers will cancel bids from negative feedback members. Understandably, sellers want to protect themselves from problematic members. So, when sellers cancel bids, prices go down... Ebay makes less money.

No question this was a desperate move on Ebay's part to bilk $$. I've got no problem with legitimate business. But, this is idiotic, and it's going to backfire on them.

[That One Guy]

Two reasons...

1. If I leave a negative feedback for someone who was a poor buyer, it's just a negative feedback... period. It means they're a bad Ebay'er. So, when THEY go to SELL something next time, people see they've had problems. Less people are likely to bid, meaning prices stay lower... meaning (you guessed it)... Ebay makes less on the transaction.

2. Sellers will cancel bids from negative feedback members. Understandably, sellers want to protect themselves from problematic members. So, when sellers cancel bids, prices go down... Ebay makes less money.

No question this was a desperate move on Ebay's part to bilk $$. I've got no problem with legitimate business. But, this is idiotic, and it's going to backfire on them.

Ahhh, ok, that makes sense. For the most part though, you really have to have a bad rating for that to really make a difference, it'd seem. I see people with 98% ratings sometimes but they've sold 20,000 items... that takes a lot of negative to be 2% of 20,000 but in the end, they still have 98% good. And as for buyers, you have to be new and stupid to let your rating actually get into the negative numbers for what sellers would usually require before they cancel your bid.

[BroncoBuff]

Ahhh, ok, that makes sense.
No it doesn't. It's a silly argument, Popps ... like cah said, sellers have TONS of feedback, so a few piddly negatives don't affect their feedback score (hence, eBay's new 90-day snapshot standard). Buyers on the other hand are far more affected by a negative feedback, because they have far fewer total comments. This is not about "giving advantage" to buyers ... it's about making the identification, and ultimately the weeding out of bad sellers, easier to accomplish.

And btw, they're LOSING money on this crackdown ... there's no supply and demand "raising of prices" argument that benefits eBay's bottom line. That's especially wrong.

[That One Guy]

No it doesn't. It's a silly argument, Popps ... like cah said, sellers have TONS of feedback, so a few piddly negatives don't affect their feedback score (hence, eBay's new 90-day snapshot standard). Buyers on the other hand are far more affected by a negative feedback, because they have far fewer total comments. This is not about "giving advantage" to buyers ... it's about making the identification, and ultimately the weeding out of bad sellers, easier to accomplish.

And btw, they're LOSING money on this crackdown ... there's no supply and demand "raising of prices" argument that benefits eBay's bottom line. That's especially wrong.

I don't agree with him either but at least I get what his argument is. I think it's all just sellers whining because they can't get the buyer back that got them. That's just my opinion on it though and he's entitled to his as well.

That last part is that part I just can't seem to grasp, if all of our theories are correct, why is Ebay willing to do it and lose money? Do they expect their endstate to be so much more respected that they'll draw more income than they currently do? Is there THAT big of a problem with bad sellers not paying their listing fees? It seems as though Ebay and its shareholders could care less about the actual quality of the person behind the store as long as Ebay's overall legitimacy isn't being challenged (which it's not) and would generally be satisfied with just the volume turnover. I know in the earlier days, it often seemed as though Ebay was just fighting for volume sometimes. Are they trying to reverse that trend now?

[Popps]

I completely disagree. As it is now, if I (the buyer) have a terrible experience with you (the seller) then I can honestly leave feedback.

As it was before, I had to choose to essentially give myself bad feedback or give you good feedback for the sake of preserving mine.

But, you're just totally omitting half of the equation. I'm guessing maybe you don't sell things on Ebay... only buy things?

Again, answer the question. Why should the BUYERS have "protection" against retaliation and not the sellers?

You don't there are ****ty buyers? Let me guarantee you, there are. As I said, I had a no-contact/no pay bidder just this week. Now, thanks to Ebay's new policy, I can't give other people this information to consider.

Yet, oddly... this guy could actually make up something... and post negative feedback on ME, with me having no chance to defend myself.

In fact, this guy can still retaliate against me for the fact that I filed a dispute for him not paying!!!

Do you not understand the utter insanity of that arrangement?

You're placing two parties together in a transaction and only allowing one to give their side of the story, despite the fact that BOTH parties can be EQUALLY damaging to the other. (And to future buyers/sellers.)

Again, it's complete lunacy and a complete a total mutilation of what was perhaps a flawed, but at least equal feedback system.

As I said, the mere fact that both parties could retaliate definitely made people a little more likely to be civil with each other and work things out properly. Now, buyers have no accountability and can lie and slander sellers with total impunity.

[Popps]

No it doesn't. It's a silly argument, Popps ... like cah said, sellers have TONS of feedback, so a few piddly negatives don't affect their feedback score .

You're absolutely and totally incorrect. 100% wrong.

Again, not sure how much of this you've done. I'm in the mid hundreds as a seller/buyer. People AB-SO-****ING-LUTELY want to know what your negative feedback is. You can have ten million positives, but if you have ONE negative, particularly recently... you will ABSOLUTELY suffer as a seller.
I know plenty of power-sellers who will tell you this exact same thing.

Use your head. If you were going to date a girl and 9 out of 10 of her last boyfriends gave her positive reviews, and one negative... and you could only click on one link to read one review.... which one would it be?

Exactly.

There's an old saying in business that if you make 100 people happy, they'll tell a handful of people. If you piss off 1 person, they'll tell 100.

Now, thanks to Ebay's f@ck-brained feedback revision, buyers can flat-out lie, cheat, not pay, retract bids, and scam with absolutely no fear of being given feedback. So, they can just keep doing it over and over and ****ing seller after seller.

Once again, there's no such thing as a justice system that only serves one side. I'm not sure how much simpler this can be made.

[Popps]

1. Seller advertises one apple for auction.

2. Buyer buys apple, misreading the auction and believing it was an orange.

3. Seller sends apple to buyer.

4. Buyer throws a tantrum, demanding a refund because he thought it was an orange.

5. Seller says, I'm sorry... my ad clearly shows and describes and apple. You're free to open a dispute, but my ad was legitimate.

6. Seller gets mad and posts negative feedback, perhaps partially based on truth, perhaps a total fabrication.

7. Seller has no recourse.

So, let's wrap up this transaction in a nutshell....

The outcome? Seller has negative marks for doing nothing wrong. Future potential buyers may now reconsider bidding on products, as they're (falsely) assuming this seller may send the wrong or flawed item. Buyer made a mistake, was confrontational, initiated a false dispute... and is now free to go and do the same thing to the next seller.

C'mon, folks. You have to use your head, here. It's ****ing ridiculous.

[broncosteven]

1. Seller advertises one apple for auction.

2. Buyer buys apple, misreading the auction and believing it was an orange.

3. Seller sends apple to buyer.

4. Buyer throws a tantrum, demanding a refund because he thought it was an orange.

5. Seller says, I'm sorry... my ad clearly shows and describes and apple. You're free to open a dispute, but my ad was legitimate.

6. Seller gets mad and posts negative feedback, perhaps partially based on truth, perhaps a total fabrication.

7. Seller has no recourse.

So, let's wrap up this transaction in a nutshell....

The outcome? Seller has negative marks for doing nothing wrong. Future potential buyers may now reconsider bidding on products, as they're (falsely) assuming this seller may send the wrong or flawed item. Buyer made a mistake, was confrontational, initiated a false dispute... and is now free to go and do the same thing to the next seller.

C'mon, folks. You have to use your head, here. It's ****ing ridiculous.

I am with Popps on this.

Also I want to know why people would only buy on ebay and not do both. Hell I used it to get rid of tons of junk in my basement. The wife has sold a ton of baby clothes. We didn't get rich but made a lot more off ebay than we have spent on it.

I think the other dude could complain if he actually sold a few times.

To make this fair Ebay should seperate your feedback for everyone into a Buyer feedback rating and a seller rating. If you are a real good buyer then you get a 100% rating, but if you are only a 98% at selling then it does not impact your buying score.

That would be the best way to do this, doubt it happens.

& yes I know if you look you can see if transaction was buy or sell but the rating is the combination of both.

[Popps]

To make this fair Ebay should seperate your feedback for everyone into a Buyer feedback rating and a seller rating.

That would indeed be an improvement. Not a fix, but an improvement... and you're also right, it won't happen.

[BroncoBuff]

You're absolutely and totally incorrect. 100% wrong.

Again, not sure how much of this you've done. I'm in the mid hundreds as a seller/buyer. People AB-SO-****ING-LUTELY want to know what your negative feedback is.
I think you're upset and it's clouding what you're seeing. You must know that eBay sellers can make almost any requirements they wish of buyers ... for example, you can sell only to confirmed PayPal accounts, you can block buyers below a certain feedback plateau, etc, etc. So to pretend you're "at the mercy" of bad buyers is just wrong.

I do know ("absolutely positively 100% know" ;D), in fact eBay openly admits that for the past year they've been working very hard to weed out poorly performing sellers in order to make the buyer experience more satisfying. And not allowing sellers to leave buyer-feedback is clearly a policy directed toward that, as is the "90-day rolling snapshot" ranking that keeps sellers on their toes ... even if you have a 99% positive ranking for a million sales over 10 years, you can still get the boot for any 90-day period of poor performance.

Maybe I'll scan in this Daily Journal article ... they openly state they're doing all this to make the buyer experience more satisfying. Think about it: weeding out sellers weeds out VOLUME, so it's wrong to think these policies are intended to drive up demand to make prices higher to make them more commissions. There is no doubt they're losing money in the short run here, a substantial amount. But apparently they think it's worth it in the long run. An eBay official talks about the discrepansy in sophistication between buyers and sellers .... that most sellers are knowledgable, everyday eBay users, while most buyers are unique (or largely unique) visitors.


And btw ... it's no accident they started this crackdown very shortly ater Yahoo! Auctions finally closed down. My guess is that eBay is trying to shore up the buyer confidence in anticipation of Google starting an auction site.

[That One Guy]

But, you're just totally omitting half of the equation. I'm guessing maybe you don't sell things on Ebay... only buy things?

Again, answer the question. Why should the BUYERS have "protection" against retaliation and not the sellers?

You don't there are ****ty buyers? Let me guarantee you, there are. As I said, I had a no-contact/no pay bidder just this week. Now, thanks to Ebay's new policy, I can't give other people this information to consider.

Yet, oddly... this guy could actually make up something... and post negative feedback on ME, with me having no chance to defend myself.

In fact, this guy can still retaliate against me for the fact that I filed a dispute for him not paying!!!

Do you not understand the utter insanity of that arrangement?

You're placing two parties together in a transaction and only allowing one to give their side of the story, despite the fact that BOTH parties can be EQUALLY damaging to the other. (And to future buyers/sellers.)

Again, it's complete lunacy and a complete a total mutilation of what was perhaps a flawed, but at least equal feedback system.

As I said, the mere fact that both parties could retaliate definitely made people a little more likely to be civil with each other and work things out properly. Now, buyers have no accountability and can lie and slander sellers with total impunity.

First, a non-paying buyer is actually one of the reasons Ebay will remove bad feedback. Just as you can't retaliate, neither can he.

Ultimately, it seems we're just on different pages as to the usefulness of the old style. We can both agree that the new style is one sided but you seem to act like the old style produced anything but reciprocating on whatever you received. Also, if you're worried about someone reading that one bad and not the 100 good.. leave your own comment on your bad feedback. There's plenty of avenues that aren't ideal here but, like I said at the start, sellers crapped the bed on this when they kept playing the "you leave me feedback first" game. You guys wanted to protect yourself before and abused the system so Ebay put the sellers in their place. You get the added advantage of having nothing materially at stake as you get paid before anything leaves your hands and the buyer gets the feedback advantage.

Again, it all boils down to that old system. You keep saying it kept people in check but I just see that it was intimidation to prevent someone from leaving you bad feedback whether you deserved it or not. Explore the avenues available and in the end, if you're getting THAT many people who misunderstood your ad, maybe there's something you can do to alleviate the miscommunication?

When all these new rules came out sellers went up in arms over all of this and swore a boycott... they were going to destroy Ebay. Well, Ebay is still there so you have the choice of Ebay or yardsale.

And like I said earlier, I've sold a few things but buy much more often than I sell but have had almost all good experiences across the board.

Oh, and what would it serve to have two different ratings? How does that pertain?

[BroncoBuff]

You're obviously caught in the crossfire, Popps, clearly you're NOT the kind of seller they're targeting. Actually, you're probably a victim of all these fly-by-nighters who buy "How to Make Money on e-Bay" tutorials ... they're EVERYWHERE these days.

Search "how to sell on eBay" and you get 2.7 million hits.

[Popps]

I think you're upset and it's clouding what you're seeing. .

Boss, I'm not "clouded" at all. You're simply refusing to address this rationally, instead... choosing to side with buyers only. That's your prerogative, but don't confuse your opinion with logic.

You must know that eBay sellers can make almost any requirements they wish of buyers ... for example, you can sell only to confirmed PayPal accounts,.

You're wrong, again. Just plain wrong. Anyone can click "buy it now" and end ANY auction, or... simply bid up the auction and win. Then, proceed not to fulfill their responsibility.

So, while you are half-correct in that I have the OPTION not to ship to an unconfirmed Paypal address, you're absolutely wrong in the assumption that this somehow absolves the buyer of any potential criticism for a poor performance.

Get it?

Yes, I can choose not to ship to someone who ****ed up.

No, it doesn't mean they're not a ****-up and that other sellers shouldn't be warned about them.


Beyond that, if someone just flat out lies to you about the product they received, you have NO recourse to correct your feedback and with NO possible fear of the seller getting to tell their side of the story, you can rest assured that buyers will go NUTS posting negative feedback at any whim.

Again, you were incapable of addressing the example, so I'm assuming you want to just keep reiterating your opinion. That's great, as long as you understand that it's an opinion and not logic.

You can't possibly have a 2-party transaction review system that only allows ONE party to review fully, and the other to ONLY review POSITIVE. I can't imagine how this could be any more simplified for you. It's ridiculous, and I buy AND sell on Ebay, hundreds of items..for almost a decade.

[Popps]

First, a non-paying buyer is actually one of the reasons Ebay will remove bad feedback. Just as you can't retaliate, neither can he.

Do you have any idea how long this takes and how many other sellers this scammer can screw and how many other auctions he/she can **** up. (And ultimately put more money in Ebay's pocket?)

Beyond that, you still have no answer for the flat-out liar who didn't read an auction and slams a seller because they didn't do their homework.

NO recourse for the seller at all.

Buyer ****s up..... buyer gets mad at seller..... buyer leaves negative feedback..... seller (who did no wrong) is punished.

Yea, very logical.

[That One Guy]

I actually just bought something the other day that it wouldn't let me proceed before I processed everything through paypal. Seller required a paypal account and payment that way and it stopped me. I'll try to find something about it but I did see it the other day, I'm fairly sure.

[That One Guy]

Do you have any idea how long this takes and how many other sellers this scammer can screw and how many other auctions he/she can **** up. (And ultimately put more money in Ebay's pocket?)

Beyond that, you still have no answer for the flat-out liar who didn't read an auction and slams a seller because they didn't do their homework.

NO recourse for the seller at all.

Buyer ****s up..... buyer gets mad at seller..... buyer leaves negative feedback..... seller (who did no wrong) is punished.

Yea, very logical.

OK, so you want the perfect system that protects you perfectly so that you can maintain your perfect score... but don't want to put any time or effort into it in the case you come across one of the turds on the internet. I apologize, I thought you were actually being sensible on this. You make a rant and rave thread on the Mane about it and when a solution is presented, you say "no thanks, that's work".

As for the buyer that didn't read the ad, that's where I said you can go in and leave your own message that attaches itself to your bad feedback. I know, I've browsed bad feedback and seen them. When the bad message pops up, so does seller comment. Again, it's not ideal but unless you can admit the old system was a fraud to make people feel good then this thread is going to devolve and not go much further.

[BroncoBuff]

Boss, I'm not "clouded" at all. You're simply refusing to address this rationally, instead... choosing to side with buyers only. That's your prerogative, but don't confuse your opinion with logic.
I don't think there's a disconnect in logic per se ... I think you're one of the good guys getting squeezed by all these fly-by-nighters who've bought the tens of thousands of "Get Rich Selling on eBay" tutorials, and are now burdening the site with poor customer service -ruining it for everybody else. The article talked about big Asian-based sellers that run up huge eBay stores and excellent feedback scores ... then spend a few weeks ripping off everybody they can before their account is pulled.

And you're half-right in that I've never actually sold anything on eBay ;D But I do know the problems they're facing, and buyer satisfaction is what they're apparently most concerned with right now.

[That One Guy]

Again, I don't think it can be overemphasized that buyers have to trust their money to someone in a transaction. Sellers only have to trust their feedback percentage. If there's a way to make it so buyers can be honest and warn other buyers, that definitely should get the preference. Unfortunately, sellers everywhere are just continuing to scream "Me ME Me!"

[That One Guy]

If you've set a Buy It Now price for your item, you can require the buyer to pay you immediately using PayPal. You might use this feature if you're selling a time-sensitive item (for example, concert tickets). You must meet certain seller and shipping requirements (http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/immediatepayment.html#requirements) and the listing must include any related costs, so your buyer knows exactly how much to pay.
How it works




A buyer who clicks the Buy It Now button in your listing is directed to pay immediately for the item using PayPal.
Until the buyer completes payment, the item remains available to other buyers to purchase for the duration of the listing. The first buyer to complete their PayPal payment officially wins your item.
Once a buyer completes payment, the listing ends and you are directed to ship the item.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/immediatepayment.html

But I guess that probably constitutes work as well, right?

[Popps]

If you've set a Buy It Now price for your item, you can require the buyer to pay you immediately using PayPal. You might use this feature if you're selling a time-sensitive item (for example, concert tickets). You must meet certain seller and shipping requirements (http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/immediatepayment.html#requirements) and the listing must include any related costs, so your buyer knows exactly how much to pay.
How it works




A buyer who clicks the Buy It Now button in your listing is directed to pay immediately for the item using PayPal.
Until the buyer completes payment, the item remains available to other buyers to purchase for the duration of the listing. The first buyer to complete their PayPal payment officially wins your item.
Once a buyer completes payment, the listing ends and you are directed to ship the item.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/immediatepayment.html

But I guess that probably constitutes work as well, right?


The immediate payment for Buy it Now is an OPTION, but it's limiting.

What if you want to allow local pick-up? Many of the items I sell (pro audio/av gear) appeal to those in Los Angeles. What if someone wants to send a bank order?

Once again, the seller is screwed by having options limited.

Beyond that, if the buyer doesn't use buy it now... and just wins and doesn't pay, they can leave you negative feedback that says you're a fraud, and it'll take WEEKS to get it removed.

Now, how comfortable would you feel buying an expensive piece of gear from someone who's last feedback was extremely negative? You'd happily send that person money?

Like I said, it's idiotic and one-sided. There's simply no other rational way to view this. It's not an opinion, it's an observation of fact.

[BroncoBuff]

Popps, I just gave you POSITIVE rep ;D

[Popps]

I don't think there's a disconnect in logic per se ... I think you're one of the good guys getting squeezed by all these fly-by-nighters who've bought the tens of thousands of "Get Rich Selling on eBay" tutorials, and are now burdening the site with poor customer service -ruining it for everybody else. The article talked about big Asian-based sellers that run up huge eBay stores and excellent feedback scores ... then spend a few weeks ripping off everybody they can before their account is pulled..

I agree, those people should be dealt with. I also think Ebay is as passive as they can possibly be about stopping that activity. I think they profit on it and like it that way.

But, THAT is just an opinion. That's not fact.

and buyer satisfaction is what they're apparently most concerned with right now.

Of course. They know what side of the bread the butter is on. But, I still think it might backfire on them.

[Popps]

Popps, I just gave you POSITIVE rep ;D

I left you some, too but I'm not sure why... ya weirdo!

:giggle:

[BroncoBuff]

I left you some, too but I'm not sure why... ya weirdo!
I'm just as God made me, sir.

[Popps]

I'm just as God made me, sir.

:spit:

Not sure if that was an intentional Spinal Tap reference, but funny nonetheless.

[Atlas]

Not sure how many on here are regular sellers, but my business has me buying/selling a good deal of pro audio/AV gear.

Just logged in to find out that sellers can no longer leave feedback! ONLY buyers. Even worse, sellers can only leave positive feedback.

So, aside from Ebay and Paypal being overrun with scammers, now... Ebay has basically just said that someone can attempt to scam you, or take 10 days to pay you for an item, and you can't leave negative feedback.

It also means that if someone doesn't read your ad correctly, and buys something other than what they (mistakenly) thought they were buying... YOU are going to get bad feedback with no recourse to fight it.

I've sold hundreds of items with zero negative feedback. I attribute most of that to being painfully specific in my ads, and bending over backwards to accommodate buyers. But, I also attribute some of it to the old feedback structure facilitating an atmosphere were buyer and seller were prone to try to work things out in a friendly manner... because no one wanted negative feedback.

In any case, maybe no one else cares... but I've been a huge ebay user/fan, but it just keeps going downhill. I'm going to send a letter. Hopefully a few of you will, too.

I can see both sides of the arguement. I left a negative feedback to a seller for not shipping the right item and then he turned around and he left me negative feedback for leaving him negative feedback... Is that fair?

[Popps]

I can see both sides of the arguement. I left a negative feedback to a seller for not shipping the right item and then he turned around and he left me negative feedback for leaving him negative feedback... Is that fair?

It's not, but the choices should be...

1. Completely do away with the feedback system.

2. Allow both parties to equally review the other.


So, again. Simply invert your example. Make yourself the seller.... and use the same example. Sellers are JUST as likely to receive undue criticism as buyers. Actually, I'd argue that sellers are much more likely to receive "on a whim," bull**** feedback than buyers.

Either way, BOTH parties need protection when using the site and both parties should be accountable, not just one.

[broncosteven]

A buyer who clicks the Buy It Now button in your listing is directed to pay immediately for the item using PayPal.
Until the buyer completes payment, the item remains available to other buyers to purchase for the duration of the listing. The first buyer to complete their PayPal payment officially wins your item.
Once a buyer completes payment, the listing ends and you are directed to ship the item.
[/LIST]http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/immediatepayment.html

But I guess that probably constitutes work as well, right?

Did this change in the last 2 weeks?

I just sold a Synth via BUY IT NOW and it took the buyer a week to pay after pussy footing around on shipping costs even though I have the shipping estimator setup. I didn't get my $, I was afraid the guy had remorse and was going to back out.

For all those that think they can argue objectively but have only bought get back to us when you have sold about 50 items. Just clean out your attic or basement one weekend and sell all you are going to throw out then let Popps and I know if you still think this is good thing.

[That One Guy]

Did this change in the last 2 weeks?

I just sold a Synth via BUY IT NOW and it took the buyer a week to pay after p***Y footing around on shipping costs even though I have the shipping estimator setup. I didn't get my $, I was afraid the guy had remorse and was going to back out.

For all those that think they can argue objectively but have only bought get back to us when you have sold about 50 items. Just clean out your attic or basement one weekend and sell all you are going to throw out then let Popps and I know if you still think this is good thing.

You have to specify how you want it done for that option to pertain to you. There's standard buy it now options or there's options like I posted where the auction isn't officially done until payment is sent. If you follow the link, it specifies everything but I knew of it because I had recently participated in such an auction where it made me do everything in Paypal before I could ever commit to buy.

[Popps]

The only spin I can possibly put on this that makes it fair is that ALL sellers will be subject to this bull****. So, anyone who has a perfect feedback can likely kiss it goodbye. It'll just be pure luck at this point. If you luck into honest, fair buyers... you're fine. If the more likely scenario pans out and you get a few numbskulls, they'll be lighting up your feedback like a christmas tree.

Like I said, I think the odd thing about Ebay's greed here is that it may eventually end up working against them. Even the best sellers are going to start to look worse, because buyers can just lie, or use feedback to vent... even if it was something THEY did wrong.

So, you'll eventually (over time) have a bunch of sellers with worse ratings.

Will buyers eventually be less and less likely to trust Ebay as a source to buy things with the sellers having so many negative marks? We'll see.

[That One Guy]

By the way, what exactly is the rating cutoff where Ebay kidnaps your kids and rapes your wife again?

Oh, you mean life will go on just the same if you get a jackass that insists on leaving you bad feedback? Reeeally??!?

[CBF1]

I can not believe I just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading the entire thread. Pretty simple solution here.

If you are not happy or do not like Ebay, stay the hell away from it. If you do not have a problem, use it. I have had over 250 transactions on Ebay and have never had a problem selling or buying. Now on Yahoo I got hosed for $200+ dollars on some Bronco tickets years ago and stopped using them after they failed to assist or refund the money from a scammer using them as a front.

It is your choice.

[Popps]

I can not believe I just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading the entire thread. Pretty simple solution here.

If you are not happy or do not like Ebay, stay the hell away from it.

So, the solution in life when you're unhappy with any product, service or anything else is to simply walk away? People should never ask for improvements from services? Particularly services they've used loyally and for long periods of time?

The problem with "stay the hell away" is that there isn't a competing service. You don't have another option.

Sorry, but I just don't walk away every time a company (or anyone else) makes a bad decision. The "love it or leave it" argument always seems to me the resort of someone too lazy or intimidated to attempt to fix, protest or otherwise attempt to influence something.

Hence, I've already written the company. I'll likely call them and I suggest any other regular sellers do as well.

It only takes a minute.

[Popps]

Beyond that, if you "wasted 15 minutes" of your life reading this, that was your choice. You had the "choice" not to click on the thread, or to cease reading it after the first post.

Yet, you made your "choice" to continue.

Now, you've chosen to type and contribute, two pages later.

Sounds like someone didn't take their own "love it or leave it" advice.

[That One Guy]

So, the solution in life when you're unhappy with any product, service or anything else is to simply walk away? People should never ask for improvements from services? Particularly services they've used loyally and for long periods of time?

The problem with "stay the hell away" is that there isn't a competing service. You don't have another option.

Sorry, but I just don't walk away every time a company (or anyone else) makes a bad decision. The "love it or leave it" argument always seems to me the resort of someone too lazy or intimidated to attempt to fix, protest or otherwise attempt to influence something.

Hence, I've already written the company. I'll likely call them and I suggest any other regular sellers do as well.

It only takes a minute.

It's clear you aren't seeking options. You don't want remedies. You want a system that strokes you and your beloved feedback score. You started out seemingly reasonable but you've discarded any answer other than "go back to the way it was before" despite us and, presumably, Ebay both agreeing that the old system was worthless. Unless you want a workable solution, just let the thread die. If all you want to do is whine, you shoulda told us that from the start.

[CBF1]

Beyond that, if you "wasted 15 minutes" of your life reading this, that was your choice. You had the "choice" not to click on the thread, or to cease reading it after the first post.

Yet, you made your "choice" to continue.

Now, you've chosen to type and contribute, two pages later.

Sounds like someone didn't take their own "love it or leave it" advice.


Unlike yourself... I am totally happy with the Ebay product and use it quite often without having problems and resorting to online arguments.

[Popps]

It's clear you aren't seeking options. You don't want remedies. You want a system that strokes you and your beloved feedback score. .

Correct.

I want the system to be run properly. All your other dribble is just you emoting.

But, you're correct. I want a proper 2 party review system, or I want it totally done away with.

Any rational thinker understands that to be the only solution. If you prefer an IRrational and UNfair, BIASED TO BUYERS ONLY system, then you're likely very happy with their new (flawed) system.

[Popps]

Unlike yourself... I am totally happy with the Ebay product and use it quite often without having problems and resorting to online arguments.

Also correct.

You are unlike me.

I've used the system for almost a decade, religiously. So, I've got more than adequate basis from which to give an opinion.

As for "resorting to online arguments," I believe it was you who came in, trashed the thread... and then claimed that we "wasted 15 minutes of your life."

Yet, here you are... still posting.

I'm guessing you've wasted upwards of 20, at this point.


You want to discuss the format and present a logic-based debate as to why an unbalanced system is better than a balanced system, be our guest.

Otherwise, you're just "wasting your life," right?

[That One Guy]

Also correct.

You are unlike me.

I've used the system for almost a decade, religiously. So, I've got more than adequate basis from which to give an opinion.

As for "resorting to online arguments," I believe it was you who came in, trashed the thread... and then claimed that we "wasted 15 minutes of your life."

Yet, here you are... still posting.

I'm guessing you've wasted upwards of 20, at this point.


You want to discuss the format and present a logic-based debate as to why an unbalanced system is better than a balanced system, be our guest.

Otherwise, you're just "wasting your life," right?

No, as I previously said, you don't want to hear anything that doesn't inflate your beloved score. You don't want debate, you want someone to agree with you. It doesn't make much sense to say you welcome debate then be unreasonable in any compromises. So, if I had anything better do with my life, I'd say that my attempt at debate has also been a waste of my time.

[Popps]

No, as I previously said, you don't want to hear anything that doesn't inflate your beloved score..

Right, and as I previously corrected you... I simply want a fair system. My score is (was) subject to the same potential hits as any other buyer or seller right now.

Under the flawed new system, ONLY sellers can be slammed.

Again, you can huff and puff all you want, but there's no such thing as a 2-party review system that only allows one party to review honestly.

I'd say that my attempt at debate has also been a waste of my time.

Could be. You mentioned several things (like the Buy it Now) and I addressed them point by point, and clearly explained to you how they don't make up for the inequality of a system where scammers can run rampant for weeks before anyone can flag them as such.

So, if you wasted your time in debate, it's likely because you've taken an "earth is flat" position, and can't BS your way out of it.

[Bronco Jamus]

I like the change. I also think there should be more than 3 levels: positive, neutral, or negative. I have had difficult exchanges with various sellers, but it didn't justify as a full negative experience because I got the product as advertised.

[BroncoBuff]

I spoke with a friend of mine today who knows eBay, and he pointed out a problem with the new one-way feedback that we haven't discussed: Buyers don't always leave good feedback anyway, even when warranted (he said maybe 2/3 leave feedback), but now they have even less incentive, because they can't get positive feedback IN RETURN. Now that sellers can't reciprocate, buyers have less incentive to bother ... there's no "you rub my rep, I'll rub yours."

On the other hand, a dissatisfied buyer will ALWAYS leave negative feedback now because there's no down-side.

[Popps]

I spoke with a friend of mine today who knows eBay, and he pointed out a problem with the new one-way feedback that we haven't discussed: Buyers don't always leave good feedback anyway, even when warranted (he said maybe 2/3 leave feedback), but now they have even less incentive, because they can't get positive feedback IN RETURN. Now that sellers can't reciprocate, buyers have less incentive to bother ... there's no "you rub my rep, I'll rub yours."

On the other hand, a dissatisfied buyer will ALWAYS leave negative feedback now because there's no down-side.

Yep. That's along the lines of what I was saying with the old "make one person mad and they tell 100" saying.

Again, it would be one thing if this was little individual buyers against big corporations. But, many if not most of the sellers are just little guys... same as buyers.

[Popps]

I like the change. I also think there should be more than 3 levels: positive, neutral, or negative. I have had difficult exchanges with various sellers, but it didn't justify as a full negative experience because I got the product as advertised.

There are definitely 3 levels right now. You can leave neutral feedback.... as a buyer.

Of course, if you're a seller... you're screwed. People can cheat, scam, not pay, lie about the transaction... and all you can do is leave them positive feedback. It really makes a ton of sense.

[Orange_Beard]

Under this new system, how does a new user get any feedback?
Does this end the feedback system?

I still have no idea why this change is being made.

[theAPAOps5]

What you are going to see happen is people use the system to their benefit. Sellers will leave feedback but be more detailed in their wording. Other sellers will start reading more of the feedback. So as a seller I would leave warnings in the feedback comments.

[Popps]

Under this new system, how does a new user get any feedback?

That part really hasn't changed. You can still get reviews as a seller or a buyer. The difference is... sellers will get full reviews, including negative comments, while buyers will only be left positive reviews or none at all.

Does this end the feedback system?


No, it just skews it to the point of being almost useless. Sellers will appear much less reliable than they were, even though they're not... and buyers (particularly those who only buy or mostly buy) will appear much more responsible than they really are.

So, that guy who's scammed and flaked on a string of auctions this week will be bidding on the product you're selling with a shiny clean, positive feedback rating.


I still have no idea why this change is being made.

Greed and stupidity.

Ebay (I believe mistakenly) believes that if they eliminate negative feedback on buyers, it will reduce the overall amount of negative feedback. Buyers will appear more responsible, hence won't be blocked... won't have their bids cancelled, etc. I'm sure their calculations predict this to generate higher closing bids and higher profits.

What they're likely not factoring in is that this new flawed, unfair system will lead to buyers bashing sellers at whim, with no attempts to be civil or work out problems. Leave bad feedback and ask questions later. So, ultimately... I think while there will be less buyer negative, there will be MUCH more seller negative, which will make the average person less likely to trust the site overall.

Again, if the guy selling an expensive piece of gear you're bidding on just got ripped in his prior auction, are you going to trust him?

Well, the odds of him being bashed when he/she doesn't deserve it just went WAY up. You're going to see buyers ripping sellers for things like UPS taking an extra day to deliver. Seriously. Any little reason and the seller is going to get slammed.

Meanwhile, the buyer will be able to take too long to pay, set up fake accounts, scam, misread auctions and complain when they bid on the wrong thing.... etc. Total impunity.

Again, I stress that I buy AND sell and have for years, so I'm definitely not speaking as just a seller.

[Orange_Beard]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/technology/14ebay.html?ex=1373774400&en=d25dcd0da013b7ba&ei=5124&partner=digg&exprod=digg

This was on Digg this morning. This is really the end. I am going to make a big generalization here, seems like many companies get big, then forget what made them big.
Ebay, Starbucks, even Mcdonalds.

[Popps]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/technology/14ebay.html?ex=1373774400&en=d25dcd0da013b7ba&ei=5124&partner=digg&exprod=digg

This was on Digg this morning. This is really the end. I am going to make a big generalization here, seems like many companies get big, then forget what made them big.
Ebay, Starbucks, even Mcdonalds.

Good article. Definitely a gradual deterioration from the original model. Maybe someone will be able to compete at some point. What a bummer, though. It's basically turning into Amazon.com. I like Amazon, for what it is... but I also liked Ebay for what it was.

[Orange_Beard]

Good article. Definitely a gradual deterioration from the original model. Maybe someone will be able to compete at some point. What a bummer, though. It's basically turning into Amazon.com. I like Amazon, for what it is... but I also liked Ebay for what it was.

I just scored a bunch of Used computer junk. I wish there were somewhere else to sell it.

[That One Guy]

This has been in the works for years. I hated when Ebay got away from the flea market aspect and turned into the Ebay Store model. Now those Ebay Stores are being replaced by bigger stores and the sellers aren't so fond of it anymore. It was cool when things changed the first time but now - damn change!

To hell with Ebay stores, to hell with whiny sellers, get me the best price and shut the f up. Either you can hang with their prices or your business plan/concept is obsolete. Quit crying about it.

[Popps]

This has been in the works for years. I hated when Ebay got away from the flea market aspect and turned into the Ebay Store model. Now those Ebay Stores are being replaced by bigger stores and the sellers aren't so fond of it anymore. It was cool when things changed the first time but now - damn change!

To hell with Ebay stores, to hell with whiny sellers, get me the best price and shut the f up. Either you can hang with their prices or your business plan/concept is obsolete. Quit crying about it.

That's the thing I was trying to say earlier in the thread. The sellers ARE the buyers, just on a different day. (So to speak) It's silly that Ebay has set out to protect buyers (wink wink) but not protect sellers... or, small sellers... the every-day guy.

So, you'll see more corporate sellers on Ebay. Then, people may bitch about them but they'll keep buying because they're corporations. Again, it'll just be Amazon.com with a different name.

[That One Guy]

That's the thing I was trying to say earlier in the thread. The sellers ARE the buyers, just on a different day. (So to speak) It's silly that Ebay has set out to protect buyers (wink wink) but not protect sellers... or, small sellers... the every-day guy.

So, you'll see more corporate sellers on Ebay. Then, people may b**** about them but they'll keep buying because they're corporations. Again, it'll just be Amazon.com with a different name.

I can see the issue now if having a high enough rating alleviates you from sellers fees but that well will dry up when those paying the bulk of the fees are forced out of the business. Before though, I just thought the whining from sellers was excessive as most people don't give much consideration to the seller unless they're a new one (less than 20+).

Ebay is definitely selling out. They soured the well on the online auction system at this point as noone could ever compete but once they were established as THE auction site, they turned their backs on everyone that had built their foundation. I agree they're going Amazon but in the end, shareholders aren't satisfied that they bought in at $6.00 and you're at $40 now... if you plateau, there's a problem. The Ebay auction sytem was basically peaked and could only go down. They had to evolve or stop realizing the growth levels their shareholders are/were accustomed to. I understand the move but once Ebay becomes just another storefront, they're competing with a bunch of different markets that they didn't really have to before. Killing the little guy and just blending in with the big boys will likely spell their demise unless they can get in quick and hold on. No longer will I say "get it on Ebay" though... those days are fading away.