Justices Rule for Individual Gun Rights

[W*GS]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/washington/27scotuscnd.html

Yahoo!

[Bob]

Thank goodness -- interesting that the left have not commented much on this issue -- I guess they are depressed as it would delay plans for round-ups of free-thinkers and re-education...

[Odysseus]

The truth is this was judicial law making at it's worst. As a gun owner with weapons of every type I think I can live with it.

[Florida_Bronco]

This was pretty much expected. Glad they ruled in favor of us.

[alkemical]

You should change your location to blackwater

[Florida_Bronco]

F*** that.

[orangeatheist]

Thank goodness -- interesting that the left have not commented much on this issue -- I guess they are depressed as it would delay plans for round-ups of free-thinkers and re-education...

LABF hasn't logged on yet. Give it time. It's also a thread started by W*GS and now I've commented in it. There's NO WAY he could stay away now! ;D

[BroncoInferno]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/washington/27scotuscnd.html

Yahoo!

http://re3.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/25/m7/3965366602

[Florida_Bronco]

LABF hasn't logged on yet. Give it time. It's also a thread started by W*GS and now I've commented in it. There's NO WAY he could stay away now! ;D

To be fair to LABF, he's not what I'd call a "gun grabber". I know he doesn't like so called assault weapons and supported the AWB, but I've seen him make posts supporting the right of the people to own firearms.

I don't want to speak for him, but I wouldn't be surprised to see LABF support this ruling.

[Spider]

Thank goodness -- interesting that the left have not commented much on this issue -- I guess they are depressed as it would delay plans for round-ups of free-thinkers and re-education...

Does this go for New York city also ? how about Houston Texas ?
Chicago ?
these are some bad ass places , with some really bad people ...... you think these fools should be armed ? or is it you base this rule off of where you live tucked away nice and safe in the Burbs in the rocky mountain region ?

[Spider]

this is clarly a states rights issue ......

[Florida_Bronco]

this is clarly a states rights issue ......

I disagree.

[Bob]

this is clarly a states rights issue ......

It is about individual rights, as was confirmed today, and clearly stated in the founding documents, and writings of those who wrote teh founding documents. Yes, things have changed a bit in 200 years, but if you look at the statements following teh second amendment, they were clearly concerned about individuals being able to free from the military being able to shack-up in your house without your permission -- gun rights are not about hunting, its about protecting oneself from the government if needed.

[Spider]

I disagree.
look , I have been coast to coast , from Bangor Mane down to San Diego , from Eugene Oregan down to Miami FLA , and every freaking point inbetween , you are nuts if you think People in Oklahoma City are like People in Boston , or same state examples ........ you really think People of Los Angles are like People in Sacramento Cali ? People in Globe Ari are like the People in Phoniex ?
How about the People in St. Louis and the People in Jefferson City ? are they alike ? Should these states be able to provide saftey for all their citizens ?

[Spider]

Personal rights, as was confirmed today, but was clearly stated in teh founding documents of the US. Yes, things have changed a bit in 200 years, but if you look at the statements following teh second amendment, they were clearly concerned about individuals being able to free from the military being able to shack-up in your house without your permission -- gun rights are not about hunting, its about protecting oneself from the government if needed.
Dont give me that bull**** of protection from the ****ing Government , your 30/30 or hand gun wont stop a jet fighter or a tank ...... protection my ass ...... Where in the **** do you people come up with this **** ?
Bob outside = Eithel , go get my 30 ot 6 , that F 15 is violating my air space ...... But you silly bastards defended the Patriot act and wireless taps on your phones ....... go ****ing figure

[Florida_Bronco]

look , I have been coast to coast , from Bangor Mane down to San Diego , from Eugene Oregan down to Miami FLA , and every freaking point inbetween , you are nuts if you think People in Oklahoma City are like People in Boston , or same state examples ........ you really think People of Los Angles are like People in Sacramento Cali ? People in Globe Ari are like the People in Phoniex ?
How about the People in St. Louis and the People in Jefferson City ? are they alike ? Should these states be able to provide saftey for all their citizens ?

What difference does any of that make?

[Spider]

What difference does any of that make?

What ? are you ****ing kidding me ?.... you put alot of people in a condenced area , tempers flare , you get a wide mixture of different kind of people .....

[TexanBob]

look , I have been coast to coast , from Bangor Mane down to San Diego , from Eugene Oregan down to Miami FLA

< Johhny Cash >
I've been everywhere, man
I've been everywhere, man
Across the desert's bare, man
Breathe the mountain air, man
Of trouble, I've had my share, man
I've been everywhere....

Hilarious!

[Florida_Bronco]

What ? are you ****ing kidding me ?.... you put alot of people in a condenced area , tempers flare , you get a wide mixture of different kind of people .....

So because tempers might flare, we should deny them their rights?

[Spider]

< Johhny Cash >
I've been everywhere, man
I've been everywhere, man
Across the desert's bare, man
Breathe the mountain air, man
Of trouble, I've had my share, man
I've been everywhere....

Hilarious!
pretty much ...... even been to a place called "Slap out "Oklahoma .....even has a post office

[Spider]

So because tempers might flare, we should deny them their rights?

No arm all the crazy ****ers ...... and Might ? ..... Hello maybe we need more Columbine type of shootings before you Idiots understand that arming dumb ass people is not a good Idea

[TexanBob]

I'm amazed at how the libs find rights that are nowhere in the Constitution... the right to privacy, the right to an abortion, the right to health care, the right to ACLU attorneys for foreign terrorists, etc... but when there is a right that is SPELLED OUT in the Constitution like freedom of religion or freedom to own guns, the Left just can't see it. They have selective eyesight, I suppose.

[spdirty]

Spider, you think criminals and crazy ****ers actually follow a gun ban?

How about the guy in D.C. who has a family, and the criminal breaks into his house at 3 AM. WTF is he suppose to do, call 911 and hide? Get a knife? Use intimidating shout? Use pepper spray or mace?

You think crazy ****er or criminal is gonna break into your house if they know your armed? I guaruntee you the odds of someone breaking into your house go waaaaaaaay down if they know you have a gun. And even if they did, they will get whats comin to em if law abiding citizen has a gun in the house, as well as good aim.

[Florida_Bronco]

No arm all the crazy ****ers ...... and Might ? ..... Hello maybe we need more Columbine type of shootings before you Idiots understand that arming dumb ass people is not a good Idea

So what other rights should we deny people? ??? Where do you draw the line?

[Spider]

So what other rights should we deny people? ??? Where do you draw the line?

Oh Brother ........ thats some real ****ing Drama queen you got going there . like I say More columbine type shootings , maybe then you will get the Idea .... no need to answer back cause there is nothing ot say ......

[24champ]

So what other rights should we deny people? ??? Where do you draw the line?

Forget about it, Spider views the World from his truck.

[Spider]

Forget about it, Spider views the World from his truck.

oh hey it is Mr supply and Demand his own self .........

[spdirty]

Oh Brother ........ thats some real ****ing Drama queen you got going there . like I say More columbine type shootings , maybe then you will get the Idea .... no need to answer back cause there is nothing ot say ......

Ohhhhhhh wow, if I remember correctly Virginia Tech is a gun-free zone, right? And for some crazy ass reason the guy who killed those people paid no attention to the gun ban. hmmmmmm.....

[Spider]

Ohhhhhhh wow, if I remember correctly Virginia Tech is a gun-free zone, right? And for some crazy ass reason the guy who killed those people paid no attention to the gun ban. hmmmmmm.....
LOL funny what you remember .......
Yeah a Gun shop sold him the gun no ****ing less ......... go figure hey .... But arm them, few more school shootings and people will say hey , maybe everyone in America deserves a gun .........maybe huh .....

[Florida_Bronco]

So what would be your criteria then Spider?

Obviously convicted felons and people with confirmed mental illness should not be allowed to own firearms, but how can you deny that right to anyone else?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/washington/27scotuscnd.html

Yahoo!Libertarians are appalled at this decision (the government denying individual states the right to govern themselves), right?

[Spider]

So what would be your criteria then Spider?

Obviously convicted felons and people with confirmed mental illness should not be allowed to own firearms, but how can you deny that right to anyone else?Um the same way you do drivers licenses , you know that thing you need to operate a motor vehicle ..........damn dude think ...... there are alot of people that are not diagnosed ,that suffer manic depression , or some other ****ed up illness ..we dont know about them until they snap ........

[W*GS]

Libertarians are appalled at this decision (the government denying individual states the right to govern themselves), right?

Explain your "reasoning".

As it is, "state's rights" don't trump individual rights.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Explain your "reasoning".
As it is, "state's rights" don't trump individual rights.Hasn't your mantra been if you don't like the rules where you live.......you can always move?

Personally, I think the DC laws were too restrictive. There is nothing wrong with owning firearms after undergoing strict and thorough background checks. A person should have to have some kind of firearms training IMO also in order to own firearms.

[Florida_Bronco]

Um the same way you do drivers licenses , you know that thing you need to operate a motor vehicle ..........damn dude think ...... there are alot of people that are not diagnosed ,that suffer manic depression , or some other ****ed up illness ..we dont know about them until they snap ........

You need a driver license to operate a motor vehicle on public streets, you can operate a motor vehicle on private property without a license.

To be able to carry your firearm in public (concealed carry) requires training/background check and so forth.

[spdirty]

Personally, I think the DC laws were too restrictive. There is nothing wrong with owning firearms after undergoing strict and thorough background checks. A person should have to have some kind of firearms training IMO also in order to own firearms.

Can't disagree with that. However, I don't think a person should have to register their firearm.

[baja]

In Mexico it is illegal to own a gun so not only to the criminals own guns they know their victims do not.

[Spider]

You need a driver license to operate a motor vehicle on public streets, you can operate a motor vehicle on private property without a license.

To be able to carry your firearm in public (concealed carry) requires training/background check and so forth.

see . that may be the law in FLA but it isnt the law out here ........ Oh why am i wasting my time ...... Look ****er you wont change your mind , I wont change mine , I think you are full of it on this issue , nothing you say will change that , so we leave it at that ....... out here you can get a CWP easier then a CPR certificate .........

[Florida_Bronco]

see . that may be the law in FLA but it isnt the law out here ........ You have a law that states you can't operate a motor vehicle on private property without a license? Link?

Oh why am i wasting my time ...... Look ****er you wont change your mind , I wont change mine , I think you are full of it on this issue , nothing you say will change that , so we leave it at that ....... This is true. Guess I'll just take the Supreme Court ruling that agrees with me and go on my merry way. :)

out here you can get a CWP easier then a CPR certificate ......... What are the requirements to get a CWP in your state?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

You need a driver license to operate a motor vehicle on public streets, you can operate a motor vehicle on private property without a license.

To be able to carry your firearm in public (concealed carry) requires training/background check and so forth.Not in WA state, at least not when I got my CC there in 2001.

[Florida_Bronco]

Not in WA state, at least not when I got my CC there in 2001.

You gotta be ****ting me.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

You gotta be ****ting me.Nope, just go to your county sheriffs office, fill out the paper work, wait a few weeks and go pick it up.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.070

[Spider]

You have a law that states you can't operate a motor vehicle on private property without a license? Link?
falls under our nuisance laws ...... hell if you have a car parked in your yard it had better be tagged and insured .....

Oh why am i wasting my time ...... Look ****er you wont change your mind , I wont change mine , I think you are full of it on this issue , nothing you say will change that , so we leave it at that .......[/QUOTE] This is true. Guess I'll just take the Supreme Court ruling that agrees with me and go on my merry way. :)

What are the requirements to get a CWP in your state?[/QUOTE]
Depends on the Sherriff of the county you live in ....... some only require you be 21 years old and live in Wyoming for over 6 months

[W*GS]

Hasn't your mantra been if you don't like the rules where you live.......you can always move?

To a point. The Constitution applies everywhere.

Personally, I think the DC laws were too restrictive. There is nothing wrong with owning firearms after undergoing strict and thorough background checks. A person should have to have some kind of firearms training IMO also in order to own firearms.

That turns the RKBA into a privilege. No sale.

[W*GS]

falls under our nuisance laws ...... hell if you have a car parked in your yard it had better be tagged and insured .....

Perhaps in WY, but not in CO and in other states. A car parked on private property needn't be tagged or insured.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

That turns the RKBA into a privilege. No sale. Owning firearms should be a privilege much like driving a vehicle only more stringent.

[W*GS]

Owning firearms should be a privilege much like driving a vehicle only more stringent.

You're completely wrong. It's people with your dogma that are the reason the 2nd Amendment exists.

[Spider]

Perhaps in WY, but not in CO and in other states. A car parked on private property needn't be tagged or insured.

yeah we got to have em tagged , unless they are in a garage ....... hell they are even strict on fencing up here , but you can walk down the middle of a street with a fire arm and not break the law

[TexanBob]

Not in WA state, at least not when I got my CC there in 2001.

Beerslug on guns: "Okay for me but not for thee." ;)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

You're completely wrong. It's people with your dogma that are the reason the 2nd Amendment exists.No I'm not. The world we live in is not anything like the framers could have imagined. Just like a drivers license (operating a dangerous piece of equipment, which anyone has the right to do just for following a few rules in society and getting trained) owning firearms should be no different. Your right to own them is not endangered unless it's obvious you shouldn't or laws enacted prevent you from owning them. The 2nd amendment as written, does not specifically apply to our society as numerous laws passed through the years shows.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Beerslug on guns: "Okay for me but not for thee." ;)It's simple to me, I don't want redneck yahoos like TX Bob running around armed because they think they are John Wayne's long lost cousin. If they have had some training and 15 layers of background checks (in Bob's case) then OK, I guess.

[spdirty]

Owning firearms should be a privilege much like driving a vehicle only more stringent.

I hope what you mean is that it is a right so long as you are a law abiding citizen, which can be taken away if you are convicted of a felony or violent misdemeanor, right? Or if you have a restraining order on you. Or if you are unstable. Thats what you mean, right?

[W*GS]

No I'm not. The world we live in is not anything like the framers could have imagined.

The "times are different" argument doesn't fly.

What do you think the framers would have thought of gangsta rap or cybersmut? Does that mean the 1st Amendment isn't valid any more?

Just like a drivers license (operating a dangerous piece of equipment, which anyone has the right to do just for following a few rules in society and getting trained) owning firearms should be no different.

A driver's license is a revenue stream, nothing more.

Your right to own them is not endangered unless it's obvious you shouldn't or laws enacted prevent you from owning them. The 2nd amendment as written, does not specifically apply to our society as numerous laws passed through the years shows.

This ruling serves as an important step in restoring our RKBA. Cry all you want, but it will be returned to its place as the ultimate guarantor of all our rights.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I hope what you mean is that it is a right so long as you are a law abiding citizen, which can be taken away if you are convicted of a felony or violent misdemeanor, right? Or if you have a restraining order on you. Or if you are unstable. Thats what you mean, right?Exactly! If you follow the rules, there is no problem. Why shouldn't training and high level background checks be part of the rules?

[W*GS]

Why shouldn't training and high level background checks be part of the rules?

Because they turn the RKBA into a privilege, which it is not.

What's your view of private gun sales?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The "times are different" argument doesn't fly.It absolutely does.

A driver's license is a revenue stream, nothing more.It's obviously more than that. Operating dangerous machinery in public has to be regulated by laws whether you understand that little fact or not.

This ruling serves as an important step in restoring our RKBA. Cry all you want, but it will be returned to its place as the ultimate guarantor of all our rights.This ruling will last only as long as one or two more SC justices do, take that to the bank. Like I said, I'm not disappointed in the ruling at all.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Because they turn the RKBA into a privilege, which it is not.It needs to be for obvious reasons in our society (a privilege that is available to anyone who qualifies).

What's your view of private gun sales?
They all should have to go through background checks (through dealers).

[W*GS]

It absolutely does.

Don't come crying to me when your "logic" is turned against your right of free speech by some censorious jerk.

It's obviously more than that. Operating dangerous machinery in public has to be regulated by laws whether you understand that little fact or not.

How does owning a firearm constitute "operating" it? We already have far more laws regarding firearms than we need, and this ruling is a step in the right direction in getting rid of the unnecessary ones.

This ruling will last only as long as one or two more SC justices do, take that to the bank. Like I said, I'm not disappointed in the ruling at all.

You're living in denial - this ruling does more damage to the gun-haters than you're willing to admit.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

You're living in denial - this ruling does more damage to the gun-haters than you're willing to admit.This ruling is not a panacea for the NRA and like I said, as soon as the makeup of the court changes, lookout.

The full implications of the decision, however, are not sorted out. Still to be seen, for example, is the extent to which the right to have a gun for protection in the home may extend outside the home.

Scalia said the Constitution does not permit "the absolute prohibition of handguns held and used for self-defense in the home." The court also struck down D.C. requirements that firearms be equipped with trigger locks or kept disassembled, but left intact the licensing of guns.

[spdirty]

this opinion by Breyer scares the shlt out of me.

"The second independent reason is that the protection the Amendment provides is not absolute. The Amendment permits government to regulate the interests that it serves."

An opinion like this opens the door for totalitarian regimes to take over, if it were to become majority opinion of the SC.

[Hotwheelz]

Oh Brother ........ thats some real ****ing Drama queen you got going there . like I say More columbine type shootings , maybe then you will get the Idea .... no need to answer back cause there is nothing ot say ......

I really take issue with this. They would've found a gun somewhere. Or built a bomb. Or something else.

But let's say that we ban guns. GUNS ARE BANNED! YAY! But wait... You just created a huge black market for guns. And who's gonna buy those guns, hmm? Law abiding citizens? No. Criminals. And now citizens can't even proect themselves. You've done the opposite of what you set out to do. What you've created is, "War on Drugs II".

Besides, it's our ****ing constitutional right.

[Spider]

I really take issue with this. They would've found a gun somewhere. Or built a bomb. Or something else.

But let's say that we ban guns. GUNS ARE BANNED! YAY! But wait... You just created a huge black market for guns. And who's gonna buy those guns, hmm? Law abiding citizens? No. Criminals. And now citizens can't even proect themselves. You've done the opposite of what you set out to do. What you've created is, "War on Drugs II".

Besides, it's our ****ing constitutional right.

Like I giv a rats ass you take issue with this ........ I was really worried if you would or not ......
I didnt say ban guns **** stick , I said it is a states rights issue , that what works in Wyoming wont work in New York , Guns need to be regulated ..... And dont give me this bull**** about defending yourself , if that was the case there would be less crime now ........

[BroncoInferno]

Frankly, W*GS, anyone with a brain can put the 2nd amendment into historical context. The most powerful gun at the time was a freakin' musket, which one could escape quicker than a knife attack back in the 18th century. To think the framers had in mind automatic rifles and the like with the 2nd amendment is, quite simply, dumb.

[Hotwheelz]

Like I giv a rats ass you take issue with this ........ I was really worried if you would or not ......
I didnt say ban guns **** stick , I said it is a states rights issue , that what works in Wyoming wont work in New York , Guns need to be regulated ..... And dont give me this bull**** about defending yourself , if that was the case there would be less crime now ........

Dude, no need to get all worked up. My mistake for misinterpeting what you said.

My point stands. The constitution applies to every state. And no matter how many regulations you put, bad guys will find ways to get guns.

Frankly, W*GS, anyone with a brain can put the 2nd amendment into historical context. The most powerful gun at the time was a freakin' musket, which one could escape quicker than a knife attack back in the 18th century. To think the framers had in mind automatic rifles and the like with the 2nd amendment is, quite simply, dumb.

I highly doubt civilians can buy M-16's.

[Florida_Bronco]

I highly doubt civilians can buy M-16's.

We can, very easily...provided they are semi automatic and meet the NFA requirement for barrel length (16" IIRC)

If you have any mechanical skills at all, you can usually buy the pieces seperately and assemble it on your own. Doing that, you can wind up with a good quality one for around $400. Add some optics and a few accessories and you are ready to go.

[Florida_Bronco]

Frankly, W*GS, anyone with a brain can put the 2nd amendment into historical context. The most powerful gun at the time was a freakin' musket, which one could escape quicker than a knife attack back in the 18th century. To think the framers had in mind automatic rifles and the like with the 2nd amendment is, quite simply, dumb.

While this is true, you also have to consider that the 2nd amendment was created to perserve the right of the citzen to bear arms against an oppressive government (T. Jefferson's writings confirm this).

[Hotwheelz]

We can, very easily...provided they are semi automatic and meet the NFA requirement for barrel length (16" IIRC)

If you have any mechanical skills at all, you can usually buy the pieces seperately and assemble it on your own. Doing that, you can wind up with a good quality one for around $400. Add some optics and a few accessories and you are ready to go.

What's the most powerful gun you can get? I know there are different classes.

[Florida_Bronco]

What's the most powerful gun you can get? I know there are different classes.

You can get rifles chambered in the .50 cal BMG round, which is the most powerful "mainstream" round I know of.

I forget exactly where they draw the line, but there is a point where the bullet can get large enough that it's considered a destructive weapon or something like that. One of my gun magazines talks about it, as one of the authors created a round for big game hunting that really pushes the limits of that. I'll see if I can track down the article.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It's simple to me, I don't want redneck yahoos like TX Bob running around armed because they think they are John Wayne's long lost cousin. If they have had some training and 15 layers of background checks (in Bob's case) then OK, I guess.

:rofl:

[Spider]

Dude, no need to get all worked up. My mistake for misinterpeting what you said.

My point stands. The constitution applies to every state. And no matter how many regulations you put, bad guys will find ways to get guns.



.
no your point doesnt stand .......

[W*GS]

Frankly, W*GS, anyone with a brain can put the 2nd amendment into historical context. The most powerful gun at the time was a freakin' musket, which one could escape quicker than a knife attack back in the 18th century. To think the framers had in mind automatic rifles and the like with the 2nd amendment is, quite simply, dumb.

They had primitive presses and quill pens back then, too. So?

Do you think they had the OM in mind when they wrote the 1st Amendment?

[W*GS]

It needs to be for obvious reasons in our society (a privilege that is available to anyone who qualifies).

Get cracking on repealing that 2nd Amendment, then.

They all should have to go through background checks (through dealers).

How do you propose to enforce this requirement?

Your ideas make a mockery of the concept of a right and are far worse and more dangerous than the "problem" you're trying to "solve".

[W*GS]

This ruling is not a panacea for the NRA and like I said, as soon as the makeup of the court changes, lookout.

I've not said it's the final word and we pro-civil-rights folks can rest easy.

However, the "collective right" doctrine is now completely dead, and one of the linchpins of the gun-haters movement is gone. Lots more idiocy on their side that needs to be eliminated.

[Bronco Jamus]

It absolutely does.

No it doesn't. The reason it doesn't is because the framers left the option to change the document via the amendment process. So if the states and people feel the 2nd amendment is no longer viable they can pass another amendment. Taking the amendment and twisting it's meaning out of context to apply to new world situations isn't the answer. We have to do it right and not be lazy. Then there is no room for complaints

[spdirty]

No it doesn't. The reason it doesn't is because the framers left the option to change the document via the amendment process. So if the states and people feel the 2nd amendment is no longer viable they can pass another amendment. Taking the amendment and twisting it's meaning out of context to apply to new world situations isn't the answer. We have to do it right and not be lazy. Then there is no room for complaints

Actually, I don't think the Bill of Rights can be amended.

[Bronco Jamus]

Actually, I don't think the Bill of Rights can be amended.

It absolutely can. All the states and congress would have to do is get the votes to change the 2nd amendment by adding a new one. The reason people try to go around that by using the courts is because in this case they know they won't get the votes. It's hard to get the votes.

[RaiderH8r]

Dont give me that bull**** of protection from the ****ing Government , your 30/30 or hand gun wont stop a jet fighter or a tank ...... protection my ass ...... Where in the **** do you people come up with this **** ?
Bob outside = Eithel , go get my 30 ot 6 , that F 15 is violating my air space ...... But you silly bastards defended the Patriot act and wireless taps on your phones ....... go ****ing figure


It only took Lee Harvey an old Italian bolt action rifle to bring the nation to its collective knees for a day in 1963.

[RaiderH8r]

Um the same way you do drivers licenses , you know that thing you need to operate a motor vehicle ..........damn dude think ...... there are alot of people that are not diagnosed ,that suffer manic depression , or some other ****ed up illness ..we dont know about them until they snap ........

Yeah, the DMV's success at weeding out the sh!tty and unfit among us to operate a motor vehicle can not be disputed. That's funny, I mean really ha f'n ha funny.

[spdirty]

It absolutely can. All the states and congress would have to do is get the votes to change the 2nd amendment by adding a new one. The reason people try to go around that by using the courts is because in this case they know they won't get the votes. It's hard to get the votes.

I stand corrected.

[RaiderH8r]

It absolutely does.
It's obviously more than that. Operating dangerous machinery in public has to be regulated by laws whether you understand that little fact or not.
This ruling will last only as long as one or two more SC justices do, take that to the bank. Like I said, I'm not disappointed in the ruling at all.

Whether or not the framers of the Constitution could have envisioned a world like ours related to the 2nd amendment is debatable.

What is not debatable, what could not have been imagined by the framers of the Constitution is a world where domestic civilians are targeted in attacks utilizing airplanes. Would you then submit that the world in which we live is entirely different from theirs and that certain "concessions" should be made regarding Amendments 4,5,6, and 7? If the "times have changed" argument is going to be implemented you're going to invariably run into a lot of difficulties with it. There you are, have at it.

[alkemical]

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.' - W

Now - look @ the telecom bill and how close this was voted - tell me he isn't prophetic.

[Hotwheelz]

no your point doesnt stand .......

Elaborate.

[TexanBob]

Frankly, W*GS, anyone with a brain can put the 2nd amendment into historical context. The most powerful gun at the time was a freakin' musket, which one could escape quicker than a knife attack back in the 18th century. To think the framers had in mind automatic rifles and the like with the 2nd amendment is, quite simply, dumb.

Then I say government should be allowed to ban newspapers because their printing presses and the internet are far more advanced today than they were in the 18th century when you had to set the type and then print everything by hand crank. Today, the New York Times or the Washington Post can spread libel and slander far more quickly than the framers could have imagined. Therefore, we should regulate them, maybe even ban them, according to your logic.

[TexanBob]

Actually, I don't think the Bill of Rights can be amended.

Technically, the "Bill of Rights" is only the first ten amendments to the constitutuion but there is no reason that any amendment cannot be rescinded or modified through the usual process (something like 2/3rds vote of the House and Senate plus passage in 2/3rds of the state houses). It's getting 66% or more of the vote in location after location that is the hard part.

Better to wait for a few justices to croak and then replace them with ones who think the Constitution is just a starting point and the law is whatever they want it to be (the usual liberal m.o.).

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I've not said it's the final word and we pro-civil-rights folks can rest easy.
However, the "collective right" doctrine is now completely dead, and one of the linchpins of the gun-haters movement is gone. Lots more idiocy on their side that needs to be eliminated.You do understand that the Internet and TV (information) are a far greater tool than firearms in protecting Americans against government tyranny in this day? Americans should be paying just as much attention to the government spying on Americans as this issue (which they aren't).

[Spider]

It only took Lee Harvey an old Italian bolt action rifle to bring the nation to its collective knees for a day in 1963.

and the magic bullet theory ....... we dont need to go there

[Spider]

Yeah, the DMV's success at weeding out the sh!tty and unfit among us to operate a motor vehicle can not be disputed. That's funny, I mean really ha f'n ha funny.

Better then the bull**** we are pulling now ............

[Spider]

Elaborate.

why in the **** should I ? I have explained my stance over and over , the ****ing bull**** of protecting myself from the government or protecting myself from Crime needs to be ****ing explained ...... Seen the crime rate ? Yeah ..... perhaps it is time you elaborated ......Ha! in my expierences those that talk the most piss all over themselfs when they have ot use their gun ......

[W*GS]

You do understand that the Internet and TV (information) are a far greater tool than firearms in protecting Americans against government tyranny in this day? Americans should be paying just as much attention to the government spying on Americans as this issue (which they aren't).

Indeed.

Still doesn't mean the 2nd Amendment is obsolete.

[spdirty]

Exactly! If you follow the rules, there is no problem. Why shouldn't training and high level background checks be part of the rules?

I'm not against that. And I don't think many people are either.

I don't think that someone who has never handled a firearm before should be able to buy one. So a training course would be fine.

I actually need to get off my ass and go buy a 9mm as a bed protector.

[spdirty]

in my expierences those that talk the most piss all over themselfs when they have ot use their gun ......

I think that around 98% of Americans hope to God that they are never in that situation.

[Spider]

I think that around 98% of Americans hope to God that they are never in that situation.

I found that my 15 pound swamp bar creates more fear then a firearm .......
I call it my republican be good stick ;D

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Indeed.
Still doesn't mean the 2nd Amendment is obsolete.I agree 100% but the idea that the 2nd amendment is the only thing standing in the way of government tyranny as the NRA and a few other pro gun organizations preach isn't valid.

[alkemical]

You do understand that the Internet and TV (information) are a far greater tool than firearms in protecting Americans against government tyranny in this day? Americans should be paying just as much attention to the government spying on Americans as this issue (which they aren't).

No, they just don't care. -

as for the rest:

A monopoly on the means of communication may define a ruling elite more precisely than the celebrated Marxian formula of 'monopoly in the means of production.'”

Robert Anton Wilson

[c_lazy_r]

I found that my 15 pound swamp bar creates more fear then a firearm .......
I call it my republican be good stick ;D

Got a hair trigger on the swamp bar? :wiggle:

I'll stick with a 30-30.

[c_lazy_r]

I'm not against that. And I don't think many people are either.

I don't think that someone who has never handled a firearm before should be able to buy one. So a training course would be fine.

I actually need to get off my ass and go buy a 9mm as a bed protector.


How about swamp bar training?? Should an American who's never used one have to enroll in "Spidey's Swamp Bar Assault School"?

[cutthemdown]

Frankly, W*GS, anyone with a brain can put the 2nd amendment into historical context. The most powerful gun at the time was a freakin' musket, which one could escape quicker than a knife attack back in the 18th century. To think the framers had in mind automatic rifles and the like with the 2nd amendment is, quite simply, dumb.

Do you think the framers envisioned abortion being protected? Many things have changed but the founders knew that would happen. To answer your question yes the founder understood guns would get more powerful. They were smart men who looked at history and saw how things change. You don't think Ben Franklin understood that weapons would be more advanced in the future? Cmon of course he did.

[cutthemdown]

I found that my 15 pound swamp bar creates more fear then a firearm .......
I call it my republican be good stick ;D

That's what your all about huh? Scaring people? When you intimidate people does it make you feel special? Were you picked on as a kid, beat by dad and mom what? All you ever talk about is threatening people, calling people out, losing your temper. I don't get it that's no way to live.

[Spider]

That's what your all about huh? Scaring people? When you intimidate people does it make you feel special? Were you picked on as a kid, beat by dad and mom what? All you ever talk about is threatening people, calling people out, losing your temper. I don't get it that's no way to live.

Yep . you got a problem with that ?

[Spider]

Got a hair trigger on the swamp bar? :wiggle:

I'll stick with a 30-30.

15 pounds of pure Iron ;D
take out a windshield in 1 swing
How about swamp bar training?? Should an American who's never used one have to enroll in "Spidey's Swamp Bar Assault School"? would have to start you out on a crow bar ;D
then work you up to a Republican be good stick

[cutthemdown]

Yep . you got a problem with that ?

oooooooooooh what are you going to do bash me with a big stick? Sorry but I learned not to fear bullies in grade school. Your act doesn't work on me.

[Spider]

oooooooooooh what are you going to do bash me with a big stick? Sorry but I learned not to fear bullies in grade school. Your act doesn't work on me.

Then why did you even bring it up ?
do you really think I give a rats as to what you think or Believe about anything ?
Hell if you stopped posting tomorrow , I wouldnt remember your name by evening time .......

[Hotwheelz]

why in the **** should I ? I have explained my stance over and over , the ****ing bull**** of protecting myself from the government or protecting myself from Crime needs to be ****ing explained ...... Seen the crime rate ? Yeah ..... perhaps it is time you elaborated ......Ha! in my expierences those that talk the most piss all over themselfs when they have ot use their gun ......

What is up with the ****ing ad homonym bull****? When the **** have I attacked you, huh? Can you not have a civilized ****ing discussion? Is that too ****ing hard?

So far, you have not cited a single source. Show me credible sources and I'll be happy to concede the point. Jesus titty ****ing Christ.

[Spider]

What is up with the ****ing ad homonym bull****? When the **** have I attacked you, huh? Can you not have a civilized ****ing discussion? Is that too ****ing hard?

So far, you have not cited a single source. Show me credible sources and I'll be happy to concede the point. Jesus titty ****ing Christ.

No I dont want a civilized discussion , I refuse to entertain the same lines of Bull**** over and over , while your responses might impress the hell out of you , they dont do a damn thing for me , so instead of reasoning and getting nowhere , I cut right to the chase ....... Now ask me again if I give a damn what you think about Guns .......

[alkemical]

Do you think the framers envisioned abortion being protected? Many things have changed but the founders knew that would happen. To answer your question yes the founder understood guns would get more powerful. They were smart men who looked at history and saw how things change. You don't think Ben Franklin understood that weapons would be more advanced in the future? Cmon of course he did.

which is why, everything not outlined in the constitution - is up to the states (or should be).

[cutthemdown]

Then why did you even bring it up ?
do you really think I give a rats as to what you think or Believe about anything ?
Hell if you stopped posting tomorrow , I wouldnt remember your name by evening time .......

It's an online forum people bring things up and give opinions. I know that anything you can't hit with your big stick is hard for you to comprehend, but maybe you can try at some point to unstick your head from your ass and get some fresh air.

[Spider]

It's an online forum people bring things up and give opinions. I know that anything you can't hit with your big stick is hard for you to comprehend, but maybe you can try at some point to unstick your head from your ass and get some fresh air.
Go back to that part about learning not to fear bullies in gradeschool ....... thatwas some funny ****

[cutthemdown]

Go back to that part about learning not to fear bullies in gradeschool ....... thatwas some funny ****


then at least your sense of humor works sometimes. Try using that instead of a big ole stick. Hilarious!

[Spider]

then at least your sense of humor works sometimes. Try using that instead of a big ole stick. Hilarious!

the big stick is more effective .......

[Hotwheelz]

No I dont want a civilized discussion , I refuse to entertain the same lines of Bull**** over and over , while your responses might impress the hell out of you , they dont do a damn thing for me , so instead of reasoning and getting nowhere , I cut right to the chase ....... Now ask me again if I give a damn what you think about Guns .......
My beliefs are not set in stone. Convince me. If you don't care what others think then why the **** are you so defensive? What did I ever to you besides disagree?

[Spider]

My beliefs are not set in stone. Convince me. If you don't care what others think then why the **** are you so defensive? What did I ever to you besides disagree?

I dont want to convience you , This shouldnt matter what I think , this is about how you FEEL,Just like you wont see a single post of mine telling people how to vote , or who to vote for , but I will make fun of them if they choose wrong ......
......this is why there is no right or wrong on this issue , either you believe guns should be regulated , or every American should own one ......... I dont mince words ,I dont beat around the bush , I just get right to the point ..... It is different down here , politics gets to be a rough forum to post in ...... actually I went pretty easy on you

[c_lazy_r]

which is why, everything not outlined in the constitution - is up to the states (or should be).


Absolutely, 100% right.

[W*GS]

An interesting chart from the NY Times:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/06/29/weekinreview/0629-nwr-LIPTAK.jpg

[Spider]

So how much of a role does population size play in that little chart ?

[W*GS]

Look up the numbers - but the percentage data already takes that into account.

[Spider]

Look up the numbers - but the percentage data already takes that into account.

No I want you to look them up as well as economic status ..... Iwant to see how the population size figures in ...... Case in point a country with smaller population will have less crime no matter how many guns are there

[JCMElway]

meh, this issue, as a left leaner, doesn't push my buttons much. Go on, have all the handguns you want. However, I would love automatic and semi-automatic weapons banned.

But, then again, I'm also a "liberal" that isn't against the death penalty either. Who knows, maybe I'm more of a moderate than I thought I was.

[Spider]

meh, this issue, as a left leaner, doesn't push my buttons much. Go on, have all the handguns you want. I would love automatic and semi-automatic weapons banned.

But, I'm also a "liberal" that isn't against the death penalty either. Who knows, maybe I'm more of a moderate than I thought I was.

pretty much on the way I see it , but I just dont like disinfo propaganda .....

[REB]

I'm glad to see the SC uphold the Constitution :thumbsup:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

An interesting chart from the NY Times:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/06/29/weekinreview/0629-nwr-LIPTAK.jpg


This chart doesn't show any such thing and the U.S. has the highest rate of murder and highest rate of gun ownership of any "civilized" country.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

And here's a more accurate indicator and look where the U.S. is compared with the European countries...

------------------------------------------------------------
Crime Statistics (http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/cri-crime) > Murders with firearms (most recent) by country

<!--php execute echo showGoogleAd('graph_oneliner_title_se_kpp', getGoogleKeywords('Crime > Murders with firearms', GOOGLE_KW_STRATEGY_OLD_KW_AND_TEXT), null, 'oneliner', 'oneliner'); phpexecute--> <!-- Start submenu --> <table class="body" style="width: 100%; height: 22px;" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>
</td> <td class="text" style="text-align: right; height: 22px;">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="5" style="height: 3px; background-color: rgb(229, 229, 229);">
</td> </tr><tr> <td colspan="5" style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" http:="" images.nationmaster.com="" images="" gradient-blue.gif="" target="_blank">
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- End submenu --><script> function selectDate(e) { var d = e.options[e.selectedIndex].value; var url = window.location.toString(); url = url.replace(/&date=\d\d\d\d(-\d\d-\d\d)?/, ''); if(d) { url += '&date=' + d; } else { url = url.replace('/red/', '/'); } window.location = url; } </script> <small>
Showing latest available data. </small> <table class="body" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr> <td class="text" style="text-align: right;">Rank </td> <td class="text"> Countries (http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms&ob=ws) </td> <td class="text" align="right"> Amount (http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms&b_desc=1) (top to bottom) </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#1 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">South Africa (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sf-south-africa/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>South Africa<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">31,918 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#2 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Colombia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/co-colombia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Colombia<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">21,898 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#3 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Thailand (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/th-thailand/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Thailand<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">20,032 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#4 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">United States (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us-united-states/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>United States<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">9,369 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#5 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Philippines (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/rp-philippines/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Philippines<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">7,708 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#6 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Mexico (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/mx-mexico/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Mexico<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">2,606 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#7 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Slovakia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/lo-slovakia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Slovakia<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">2,356 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#8 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">El Salvador (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/es-el-salvador/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>El Salvador<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">1,441 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#9 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Zimbabwe (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/zi-zimbabwe/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Zimbabwe<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">598 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#10 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Peru (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/pe-peru/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Peru<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">442 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#11 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Germany (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/gm-germany/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Germany<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">269 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#12 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Czech Republic (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ez-czech-republic/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Czech Republic<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">181 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#13 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Ukraine (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/up-ukraine/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Ukraine<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">173 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#14 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Canada (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ca-canada/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Canada<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">144 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#15 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Albania (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/al-albania/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Albania<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">135 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#16 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Costa Rica (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/cs-costa-rica/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Costa Rica<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">131 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#17 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Azerbaijan (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/aj-azerbaijan/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Azerbaijan<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">120 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#18 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Poland (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/pl-poland/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Poland<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">111 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#19 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Uruguay (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/uy-uruguay/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Uruguay<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">109 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td></tr></tbody></table>

CONT.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

List contiued from previous post...

<table style="width: 100%;" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="padding: 10px 5px 5px 0px; width: 770px; vertical-align: top;"><table style="width: 770px;" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="body" style="width: 620px; vertical-align: top;"><table class="body" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="padding-left: 15px;"><table class="body" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#20 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Spain (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sp-spain/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Spain<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">97 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#21 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Portugal (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/po-portugal/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Portugal<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">90 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#22 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Croatia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/hr-croatia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Croatia<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">76 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#23 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Switzerland (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sz-switzerland/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Switzerland<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">68 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#24 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Bulgaria (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/bu-bulgaria/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Bulgaria<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">63 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#25 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Australia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/as-australia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Australia<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">59 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#26 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Sweden (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sw-sweden/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Sweden<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">58 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#27 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Bolivia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/bl-bolivia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Bolivia<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">52 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#28 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Japan (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ja-japan/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Japan<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">47 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#29 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Slovenia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/si-slovenia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Slovenia<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">39 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#30 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Hungary (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/hu-hungary/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Hungary<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">38 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#31 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Belarus (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/bo-belarus/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Belarus<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">38 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#32 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Latvia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/lg-latvia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Latvia<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">28 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#33 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Burma (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/bm-burma/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Burma<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">27 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#34 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/mk-macedonia-republic-of/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">26 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#35 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Austria (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/au-austria/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Austria<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">25 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#36 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Estonia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/en-estonia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Estonia<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">21 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#37 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Moldova (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/md-moldova/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Moldova<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">20 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#38 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Lithuania (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/lh-lithuania/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Lithuania<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">16 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#39 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Denmark (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/da-denmark/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Denmark<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">14 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#40 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">United Kingdom (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/uk-united-kingdom/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>United Kingdom<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">14 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#41 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Ireland (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ei-ireland/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Ireland<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">12 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#42 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">New Zealand (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/nz-new-zealand/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>New Zealand<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">10 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#43 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Chile (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ci-chile/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Chile<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">9 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#44 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Cyprus (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/cy-cyprus/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Cyprus<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">4 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#45 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Morocco (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/mo-morocco/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Morocco<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">1 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#46 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Luxembourg (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/lu-luxembourg/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Luxembourg<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#47 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Iceland (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ic-iceland/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Iceland<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#48 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Oman (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/mu-oman/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Oman<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0 </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
</td> <td align="left">Total:</td> <td align="right">100,693 </td> </tr> <tr> <td>
</td> <td align="left">Weighted average:</td> <td align="right">2,097.8 </td> <td>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- google_ad_region_start=source_and_definition --> <!-- google_ad_region_start=definition --> DEFINITION: Total recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm. Crime (http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/Crime) statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime (http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/Crime), than actual prevalence.
<!-- google_ad_region_end=definition --> <!-- google_ad_region_end=source_and_definition -->
<!-- google_ad_region_start=source_and_definition --> <!-- google_ad_region_start=source --> SOURCE: The Eighth United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems (2002) (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)
<!-- google_ad_region_end=source --> <!-- google_ad_region_end=source_and_definition --> <script> function submit_form(form) { var url = '/' + 'country' + '/' + document.profile_form.country.options[document.profile_form.country.selectedIndex].value + '/' + 'cri'; window.location = url; } </script> See also

Related links:

View Stat: Crime > Violent crime (http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_vio_cri) on StateMaster (US states)
View Stat: Crime > Property crime total (http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_pro_cri_tot) on StateMaster (US states)
View Stat: Government > Gun Laws > Prohibited firearms (http://www.statemaster.com/graph/gov_gun_law_pro_fir) on StateMaster (US states)
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[W*GS]

No I want you to look them up as well as economic status ..... Iwant to see how the population size figures in ...... Case in point a country with smaller population will have less crime no matter how many guns are there

Why don't you show that?

[W*GS]

This chart doesn't show any such thing and the U.S. has the highest rate of murder and highest rate of gun ownership of any "civilized" country.

"Civilized" being defined as "low rate of gun ownership", correct?

Your prejudicial slip is showing.

[W*GS]

And here's a more accurate indicator and look where the U.S. is compared with the European countries...

What are the murder rates?

Absolute numbers aren't relevant.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

"Civilized" being defined as "low rate of gun ownership", correct?

Your prejudicial slip is showing.Civilized using the U.S. government's definition. You know, not violating human rights, not being part of the "axis of evil", etc...

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What are the murder rates?
Absolute numbers aren't relevant.

Again, the U.S. is in fine company?

---------------------------------------------------------------
Crime Statistics (http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/cri-crime) > Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country


<small> Showing latest available data. </small> <table class="body" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="text" style="text-align: right;">Rank </td> <td class="text"> Countries (http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita&ob=ws) </td> <td class="text" align="right"> Amount (http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita&b_desc=1) (top to bottom) </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#1 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Colombia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/co-colombia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Colombia<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.617847 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#2 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">South Africa (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sf-south-africa/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>South Africa<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.496008 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#3 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Jamaica (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/jm-jamaica/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Jamaica<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.324196 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#4 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Venezuela (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ve-venezuela/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Venezuela<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.316138 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#5 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Russia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/rs-russia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Russia<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.201534 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#6 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Mexico (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/mx-mexico/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Mexico<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.130213 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#7 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Estonia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/en-estonia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Estonia<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.107277 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#8 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Latvia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/lg-latvia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Latvia<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.10393 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#9 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Lithuania (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/lh-lithuania/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Lithuania<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.102863 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#10 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Belarus (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/bo-belarus/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Belarus<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.0983495 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#11 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Ukraine (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/up-ukraine/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Ukraine<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.094006 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#12 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Papua New Guinea (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/pp-papua-new-guinea/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Papua New Guinea<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.0838593 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#13 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Kyrgyzstan (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/kg-kyrgyzstan/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Kyrgyzstan<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.0802565 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#14 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Thailand (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/th-thailand/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Thailand<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.0800798 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#15 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Moldova (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/md-moldova/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Moldova<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.0781145 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#16 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Zimbabwe (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/zi-zimbabwe/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Zimbabwe<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.0749938 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#17 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Seychelles (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/se-seychelles/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Seychelles<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.0739025 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#18 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Zambia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/za-zambia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Zambia<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.070769 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#19 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Costa Rica (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/cs-costa-rica/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Costa Rica<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.061006 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#20 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Poland (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/pl-poland/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Poland<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.0562789 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#21 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Georgia (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/gg-georgia/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Georgia<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.0511011 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#22 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">Uruguay (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/uy-uruguay/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>Uruguay<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.045082 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#23 </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 155px;">Bulgaria (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/bu-bulgaria/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="graphHl" style="width: 175px"><b>Bulgaria<b></td--> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.0445638 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="graphHl" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="" style="width: 40px;" align="right">#24 </td> <td class="" style="width: 155px;">United States (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us-united-states/cri-crime):</td> <!--td class="" style="width: 175px"><b>United States<b></td--> <td class="" style="width: 180px;" align="right">0.042802 per 1,000 people </td> <td class="" style="width: 225px;" valign="middle">
</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Florida_Bronco]

meh, this issue, as a left leaner, doesn't push my buttons much. Go on, have all the handguns you want. However, I would love automatic and semi-automatic weapons banned.

But, then again, I'm also a "liberal" that isn't against the death penalty either. Who knows, maybe I'm more of a moderate than I thought I was.

Automatic weapons are already banned unless you can jump through the legal hoops to get them. Seems to work pretty well, since no legally acquired automatic weapon has killed someone in America since the 20's or 30's.

Totally disagree on banning semi-auto though. Not gonna happen either.

[Spider]

Why don't you show that?

I want you to see the flaw in your chart

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Automatic weapons are already banned unless you can jump through the legal hoops to get them. Seems to work pretty well, since no legally acquired automatic weapon has killed someone in America since the 20's or 30's.
Totally disagree on banning semi-auto though. Not gonna happen either.Anyone with the approval of the local authorities (like the local the Sheriff) and with the knowledge of the federal BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol, Tax, Firearms and Explosives)can buy a fully automatic firearm from a dealer with a class 3 federal license.

I worked with a guy from AZ back east on a nuke plant that had to go to psych eval because he said he loved shooting automatic weapons during screening (he holds a class III license). He ended up selling a couple of his weapons to the psychiatrist.

[Florida_Bronco]

Anyone with the approval of the local authorities (like the local the Sheriff) and with the knowledge of the federal BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol, Tax, Firearms and Explosives)can buy a fully automatic firearm from a dealer with a class 3 federal license.

I worked with a guy from AZ back east on a nuke plant that had to go to psych eval because he said he loved shooting automatic weapons during screening (he holds a class III license). He ended up selling a couple of his weapons to the psychiatrist.

Yeah, you have to pay the $200 tax stamp and go through a federal background check. They just don't give them away, thats for sure.

[W*GS]

Civilized using the U.S. government's definition. You know, not violating human rights, not being part of the "axis of evil", etc...

A government that doesn't trust the People (i.e., the government's bosses) with arms is violating human rights.

[W*GS]

I want you to see the flaw in your chart

Not my chart - the New York Times's chart.

Like I said, population is already implicit in the percentage figure.

Besides, even BB's flawed table shows that small countries do not necessarily have less crime or murder.

[W*GS]

Again, the U.S. is in fine company?

Typically, murder rates are per 100,000 and are given to one decimal place.

Try again.

Even better, include total homicide rate, with-firearm homicide rate, and over time, say over the last few decades.

If you don't present more data, and data that provides more context, you're just cherry-picking. I do data analysis for a living, and what you've provided so far is a joke.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Typically, murder rates are per 100,000 and are given to one decimal place.
Try again.No, you try again. Find anything that shows the U.S. isn't the "civilized" murder capital of countries in the world.

If you don't present more data, and data that provides more context, you're just cherry-picking. I do data analysis for a living, and what you've provided so far is a joke.Oh, please, you know the numbers. It's not like the U.S. just started experiencing third world murder rates a few years ago.

[W*GS]

No, you try again. Find anything that shows the U.S. isn't the "civilized" murder capital of countries in the world.

It's because of the guns, isn't it? Damn them guns! And the NRA too!

Oh, please, you know the numbers. It's not like the U.S. just started experiencing third world murder rates a few years ago.

Exactly. I'll let you figure out why. Pssst - it isn't the guns.

[RaiderH8r]

and the magic bullet theory ....... we dont need to go there

WTF are you on about? Get a step stool because I think my point went right over your head. I responded to your assertion that an armed citizenry could do nothing against the might of the US armed forces by simply pointing out that one man could bring a nation to its collective knees. Somehow you went all Oliver Stone JFK on my point.

[Spider]

WTF are you on about? Get a step stool because I think my point went right over your head. I responded to your assertion that an armed citizenry could do nothing against the might of the US armed forces by simply pointing out that one man could bring a nation to its collective knees. Somehow you went all Oliver Stone JFK on my point.

No the magic Bullit theory , perhaps you need to read more , to believe Oswald did it , yo uhave to buy the magic bullet theory hook line and sinker , so it is obvious my responce went far above a step stools help for you to get it ........ we are talking a ****ing elevator for you .........

[Bronco_Beerslug]

It's because of the guns, isn't it? Damn them guns! And the NRA too!
Exactly. I'll let you figure out why. Pssst - it isn't the guns.Part of it is, part isn't but that's one reason why the chart that you posted isn't accurate or valid.

[W*GS]

Part of it is, part isn't but that's one reason why the chart that you posted isn't accurate or valid.

So go bitch at the New York Times. It's their chart, not mine.

[Spider]

So go b**** at the New York Times. It's their chart, not mine.

But you posted it as if it meant something , Obviously , you was so excited by it , you felt the need ot share it , without closely examining its content...... for that your bear responsibility

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So go b**** at the New York Times. It's their chart, not mine.Ah, so you didn't post it to make some kind of point, just for conversation, I see.

[errand]

Thank goodness -- interesting that the left have not commented much on this issue -- I guess they are depressed as it would delay plans for round-ups of free-thinkers and re-education...

..yeah, they'd probably blow their heads off...but don't own guns.

[errand]

Dont give me that bull**** of protection from the ****ing Government , your 30/30 or hand gun wont stop a jet fighter or a tank ...... protection my ass ...... Where in the **** do you people come up with this **** ?
Bob outside = Eithel , go get my 30 ot 6 , that F 15 is violating my air space ...... But you silly bastards defended the Patriot act and wireless taps on your phones ....... go ****ing figure


..and yet this same ignorant liberal thinks that a bunch of ragheads tossing bombs can whip our soldiers and Marines. Once again in the mind of liberals Americans can't do anything....

BTW Spider I said "bomb" several times on my cell this week...FBI has yet to knock down my door......

[errand]

So because tempers might flare, we should deny them their rights?

You need to understand the liberal mind....law abiding Americans don't deserve rights....only the terrorists/criminals we kill or capture on the battlefield do.

[errand]

Does this go for New York city also ? how about Houston Texas ?
Chicago ?
these are some bad ass places , with some really bad people ...... you think these fools should be armed ? or is it you base this rule off of where you live tucked away nice and safe in the Burbs in the rocky mountain region ?


You don't find it odd that most of the places with bans on guns have the highest crime rates?

[errand]

No arm all the crazy ****ers ...... and Might ? ..... Hello maybe we need more Columbine type of shootings before you Idiots understand that arming dumb ass people is not a good Idea

How effective would those two idiots have been if several of their victims were packing guns as well? They might have gotten one..maybe two...they'd have been the third and fourth people killed

[Bronco_Beerslug]

You don't find it odd that most of the places with bans on guns have the highest crime rates?Ignorant and uneducated tripe but with you that is the norm I've found.

You need to understand the liberal mind....law abiding Americans don't deserve rights....only the terrorists/criminals we kill or capture on the battlefield do.See above. No wonder this country has "dumbed down" so much lately, with "patriotic champions" like you populating it..

[W*GS]

Ah, so you didn't post it to make some kind of point, just for conversation, I see.

The point made by the chart is still valid.

There is no clear correlation between gun ownership rates and death rates.

[BroncoInferno]

Wonderful to see errand back giving valuable insight into what the Deliverance segment of the electorate is thinking (I use the term loosely) this election season.

[RaiderH8r]

No the magic Bullit theory , perhaps you need to read more , to believe Oswald did it , yo uhave to buy the magic bullet theory hook line and sinker , so it is obvious my responce went far above a step stools help for you to get it ........ we are talking a ****ing elevator for you .........

No, the magic bullet thing has been debunked and scientifically demonstrated that Oswald acted alone and the shots are absolutely possible and plausible. So take off your tin foil hat and pick up a couple of books instead of taking Ollie Stone's word for it.

My point still remains however, a single armed man can bring a nation to its collective knees, if only for a day.

To sum up:
Oswald acted alone
Magic bullet is bogus
Oswald made the shots
Kennedy assassinated
Nation mourns
Wingnut Ollie Stone makes a movie out of a mole hill and people lap the **** up like anti-freeze at a petting zoo
RaiderH8r left to deal with fall out. F You Ollie Stone!


While I'm at it Ollie, Any Given Sunday is an abomination of a film.

[Bronco Jamus]

No, the magic bullet thing has been debunked and scientifically demonstrated that Oswald acted alone and the shots are absolutely possible and plausible. So take off your tin foil hat and pick up a couple of books instead of taking Ollie Stone's word for it.

My point still remains however, a single armed man can bring a nation to its collective knees, if only for a day.

To sum up:
Oswald acted alone
Magic bullet is bogus
Oswald made the shots
Kennedy assassinated
Nation mourns
Wingnut Ollie Stone makes a movie out of a mole hill and people lap the **** up like anti-freeze at a petting zoo
RaiderH8r left to deal with fall out. F You Ollie Stone!


While I'm at it Ollie, Any Given Sunday is an abomination of a film.


I saw a demonstration last Sunday that actually created the 7 wounds created by the bullet. I am convinced that it happened that way after seeing it. They tested it every which way. The only confounds were that the target wasn't moving and they weren't using real people.

And I agree Any Given Sunday was a bad film. Except for Pacino's speech. That was cool.

[RaiderH8r]

I saw a demonstration last Sunday that actually created the 7 wounds created by the bullet. I am convinced that it happened that way after seeing it. They tested it every which way. The only confounds were that the target wasn't moving and they weren't using real people.

And I agree Any Given Sunday was a bad film. Except for Pacino's speech. That was cool.

It's Al Pacino. The guy could read the phone book and make it sound cool. Hoooahh!

[Spider]

No, the magic bullet thing has been debunked and scientifically demonstrated that Oswald acted alone and the shots are absolutely possible and plausible. So take off your tin foil hat and pick up a couple of books instead of taking Ollie Stone's word for it.

My point still remains however, a single armed man can bring a nation to its collective knees, if only for a day.

To sum up:
Oswald acted alone
Magic bullet is bogus
Oswald made the shots
Kennedy assassinated
Nation mourns
Wingnut Ollie Stone makes a movie out of a mole hill and people lap the **** up like anti-freeze at a petting zoo
RaiderH8r left to deal with fall out. F You Ollie Stone!


While I'm at it Ollie, Any Given Sunday is an abomination of a film.
good thing I got my boots on cause the **** is getting deep ........

[RaiderH8r]

good thing I got my boots on cause the **** is getting deep ........

I've seen your posts, you better get some hip waders.

[alkemical]

I've seen your posts, you better get some hip waders.

CLASSIC!

[atomicbloke]

So happy I moved to Singapore.

No guns here. And there were no guns to begin with. No BS about how only outlaws will have guns. No crime here. Absolutely safe.

While I do miss America, the guns were one of the main reasons that forced me to leave.

[RaiderH8r]

So happy I moved to Singapore.

No guns here. And there were no guns to begin with. No BS about how only outlaws will have guns. No crime here. Absolutely safe.

While I do miss America, the guns were one of the main reasons that forced me to leave.

Blaming guns for violence is like blaming spoons for making people fat. They're tools.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Blaming guns for violence is like blaming spoons for making people fat. They're tools.Not in America, they are deadly weapons handed out like candy. The criminals have no problems at all in obtaining them to use in their crimes against the American people.

[RaiderH8r]

Not in America, they are deadly weapons handed out like candy. The criminals have no problems at all in obtaining them to use in their crimes against the American people.

And no, guns are not violent. They exist but they are nothing without an operator. Just a paperweight. People are violent, guns are guns.

So why should we make it harder on law abiding citizens to do the same?

Furthermore, perhaps we should ban cars. They kill plenty of folks and there is certainly no language in the Constitution guaranteeing a right to one. In fact, case law supports driving as a privelege, not a right. Out with the cars. In fact, that would eliminate drive by shootings in a penstroke.

[Bronco Jamus]

Not in America, they are deadly weapons handed out like candy. The criminals have no problems at all in obtaining them to use in their crimes against the American people.

And all the laws in the world aren't going to change that.

[W*GS]

Not in America, they are deadly weapons handed out like candy.

Not quite, but rhetorical excess when it comes to guns is one of your trademarks.

[alkemical]

Hey - i'm all for people killing themselves:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1819165,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

Suicides accounted for 55% of the nation's nearly 31,000 firearm deaths in 2005, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Not quite, but rhetorical excess when it comes to guns is one of your trademarks.My "rhetorical excess" is simple exaggeration for sure but can't touch yours in some areas (like this one).
And all the laws in the world aren't going to change that.Why is that?
Hey - i'm all for people killing themselves:
Suicides accounted for 55% of the nation's nearly 31,000 firearm deaths in 2005, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.A sick society we live in, no doubt.

[W*GS]

My "rhetorical excess" is simple exaggeration for sure but can't touch yours in some areas (like this one).

Such as?

A sick society we live in, no doubt.

Not as sick as the other societies with higher suicide rates.

Got that time-series data yet?

[BroncoInferno]

W*GS' pathetic bias can't see the stone cold fact that a gun is an infinitely more efficient weapon than, say, a knife, therefore fewer people will surely be killed if determined murderers can't get there hands on more efficient killing machines (i.e. guns). What is so hard to understand about this simple fact?

[W*GS]

W*GS' pathetic bias can't see the stone cold fact that a gun is an infinitely more efficient weapon than, say, a knife, therefore fewer people will surely be killed if determined murderers can't get there hands on more efficient killing machines (i.e. guns). What is so hard to understand about this simple fact?

There's no clear correlation between murder rate and the rate of gun ownership, therefore your "simple fact" isn't supported by the data, ergo, it's wrong.

[BroncoInferno]

There's no clear correlation between murder rate and the rate of gun ownership, therefore your "simple fact" isn't supported by the data, ergo, it's wrong.

It's logic. Gun=more efficient at killing than other weapons. Therefore, killers will be less successful at their killing without access to a gun. So, no, it's not wrong.

[W*GS]

It's logic. Gun=more efficient at killing than other weapons. Therefore, killers will be less successful at their killing without access to a gun. So, no, it's not wrong.

Reality doesn't support your logic. The problem isn't reality, therefore, it must be your "logic".

[alkemical]

It's logic. Gun=more efficient at killing than other weapons. Therefore, killers will be less successful at their killing without access to a gun. So, no, it's not wrong.

Albeit - it's messy - but it does allow people to commit suicide more efficiently.

[Bronco Yoda]

Dont give me that bull**** of protection from the ****ing Government , your 30/30 or hand gun wont stop a jet fighter or a tank ...... protection my ass ...... Where in the **** do you people come up with this **** ?
Bob outside = Eithel , go get my 30 ot 6 , that F 15 is violating my air space ...... But you silly bastards defended the Patriot act and wireless taps on your phones ....... go ****ing figure

I agree... that's why we should all be allowed to own our very own hand held stinger missles, fully automatic chrome plated 50BMG's and a good old fashioned radar guided, chain-fed, 8 inch rotary barreled auto-cannon mounted on every roof next to the Direct TV dish!
:flower:

[RaiderH8r]

I agree... that's why we should all be allowed to own our very own hand held stinger missles, fully automatic chrome plated 50BMG's and a good old fashioned radar guided, chain-fed, 8 inch rotary barreled auto-cannon mounted on every roof next to the Direct TV dish!
:flower:

That would be sweet!

[Bronco Jamus]

It's logic. Gun=more efficient at killing than other weapons. Therefore, killers will be less successful at their killing without access to a gun. So, no, it's not wrong.

Criminals don't follow the laws.