Senate GOP blocks windfall taxes on Big Oil

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The Greedy Oil Party at work...


By H. JOSEF HEBERT, Associated Press Writer 23 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Saved by Senate Republicans, big oil companies dodged an attempt Tuesday to slap them with a windfall profits tax and take away billions of dollars in tax breaks in response to the record gasoline prices that have the nation fuming.

GOP senators shoved aside the Democratic proposal, arguing that punishing Big Oil won't do a thing to lower the $4-a-gallon-price of gasoline that is sending economic waves across the country. High prices at the pump are threatening everything from summer vacations to Meals on Wheels deliveries to the elderly.

The Democratic energy package would have imposed a 25 percent tax on any "unreasonable" profits of the five largest U.S. oil companies, which together made $36 billion during the first three months of the year. It also would have given the government more power to address oil market speculation, opened the way for antitrust actions against countries belonging to the OPEC oil cartel, and made energy price gouging a federal crime.

"Americans are furious about what's going on," declared Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D. He said they want Congress to do something about oil company profits and the "orgy of speculation" on oil markets.

But Republican leaders said the Democrats' plan would do harm rather than good — and they kept the legislation from being brought up for debate and amendments.

On world markets, oil prices retreated a bit Tuesday but remained above $131 a barrel. Gasoline prices edged even higher to a nationwide record average of $4.04 a gallon.

At the Capitol, Democratic leaders needed 60 votes and they got only 51 senators' support, including seven Republicans who bucked their party leaders. Sen. Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, a state tied closely to the oil industry, was the only Democrat opposing the bill.

"We are hurting as a country. We're hurting individually as Americans ... and the other side says, `Do nothing. Don't even debate the issue,'" complained Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y.

"Average citizens are scratching their heads and saying, what's wrong with Washington," said Schumer.

GOP opponents argued that little was to be gained by imposing new taxes on the five U.S. oil giants: Exxon Mobil Corp., Chevron Corp., Shell Oil Co., BP America Inc. and ConocoPhilips Co.

While these companies may be huge, they don't set world oil prices and raising their taxes would discourage domestic oil production, the Republicans said of the Democrats' plan.

"In the middle of what some are calling the biggest energy shock in a generation ... they proposed as a solution, of all things, a windfall profits tax," Republican leader Mitch McDonnell of Kentucky chided the Democrats. He called their proposal "a gimmick" that would not lower gasoline prices and only hold back domestic oil production.

"The American people are clamoring for relief at the pump," agreed Sen. Pete Domenici, R-N.M., but "they will get exactly what they don't want" under the Democrats' plan — higher prices and an increase in oil imports.

The bill's supporters argued that their proposal was different from the windfall profits taxes of the early 1980s that thwarted domestic production and led to a rise in imports. The oil companies could avoid the tax by using their "windfall" to push alternative energy programs or refinery expansions, they said.

Shortly after the oil tax vote, Republicans blocked a second proposal that would extend tax breaks that have either expired or are scheduled to end this year for wind, solar and other alternative energy development, and for the promotion of energy efficiency and conservation. Again Democrats couldn't get the 60 votes to overcome a GOP filibuster.

Neither Republican presidential candidate John McCain nor his Democratic rival, Barack Obama, were in Washington to cast votes on the energy issue on Tuesday.

Obama, in a statement, said Republicans had "turned a blind eye to the plight of America's working families" by refusing to take up the energy legislation. Obama has supported additional taxes on the oil companies. McCain is opposed to such taxes and has proposed across-the-aboard tax reductions for industry as a way to help the economy.

Election-year politics hung over the debate. Democrats know their energy package has no chance of becoming law. Even it were to overcome a Senate GOP filibuster — a longshot at best — and the House acted, President Bush has made clear he would veto it.

But there was nothing to lose by taking on Big Oil when people are paying $60 to $100 to fill up their gas tanks.

The oil companies have been frequent targets of Congress. Twice this year, top executives of the largest U.S. oil producers have been brought before congressional committees to explain their huge profits. And each time the executives urged lawmakers to resist punitive tax measures, blaming high costs on global supply and demand.

In addition to the proposed windfall profits tax, the Democrats' bill also would have rescinded tax breaks that are expected to save the oil companies $17 billion over the next 10 years. The money would have been used to provide tax incentives for producers of wind, solar and other alternative energy sources as well as for energy conservation.

In an attempt to dampen oil market speculation, the legislation would require traders to put up more collateral in the energy futures markets and would provide authority to regulate U.S.-based trading in foreign markets. And it would make oil and gas price gouging a federal crime, with stiff penalties of up to $5 million during a presidentially declared energy emergency.

After Tuesday's defeat, Democrats did not rule out pushing the issue again.

"This was politics at its worst," complained Sen. Claire McCaskill, D-Mo. "This was a refusal to debate the biggest problem confronting the American people. ... That takes nerve."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080610/ap_on_go_co/congress_oil_profits

[Florida_Bronco]

The worst part is that this doesn't surprise me at all.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

In an attempt to dampen oil market speculation, the legislation would require traders to put up more collateral in the energy futures markets and would provide authority to regulate U.S.-based trading in foreign markets. And it would make oil and gas price gouging a federal crime, with stiff penalties of up to $5 million during a presidentially declared energy emergency.This part is needed badly!

[cutthemdown]

It's just not smart move to single them out and tax them like that. I would rather see Congress pass laws that allow more nuclear plants, more drilling etc to increase energy supply.

Why not a huge tax on hollywood they make a ton of money and put out **** movies?

I'd almost rather see a true socialist move where the govt creates a competing oil company and goes out and pumps some ridiculous amount. Flood the market and make oil cheap agian.

[Spider]

Depending on who you talk to , we either have enough oil for 200 years , or 125 years ....... We all know about Shale oil , but what we didnt know was Sector 181`.......I guess that mother is like a sore peter , it cant be beat ..... though I dont know much about it ....

[Spider]

It's just not smart move to single them out and tax them like that. I would rather see Congress pass laws that allow more nuclear plants, more drilling etc to increase energy supply.

Why not a huge tax on hollywood they make a ton of money and put out **** movies?

I'd almost rather see a true socialist move where the govt creates a competing oil company and goes out and pumps some ridiculous amount. Flood the market and make oil cheap agian.

Cause you have a choice to go see that movie ..... Seriously stop and think , you get pissed off at oil , what are you going to do ?
Just like the Idiots that compare the price of Oil to other goods ... totally off base , if i dont want ot pay 2.00 for water I can go to a fountain , cant do that with oil ....

[Bronco_Beerslug]

It's just not smart move to single them out and tax them like that. I would rather see Congress pass laws that allow more nuclear plants, more drilling etc to increase energy supply.
Why not a huge tax on hollywood they make a ton of money and put out **** movies?
I'd almost rather see a true socialist move where the govt creates a competing oil company and goes out and pumps some ridiculous amount. Flood the market and make oil cheap agian.But it's smart to give them subsidies and tax breaks other companies don't enjoy? That's what most of this about. Profit taxes shouldn't be considered though.

[spdirty]

2 questions. What is the windfall profits tax going to accomplish and what is it going to do to lower the price of gas?

[Bronco Jamus]

This part is needed badly!

Absolutely. Which is why I would have yanked the tax off the bill.

[Spider]

2 questions. What is the windfall profits tax going to accomplish and what is it going to do to lower the price of gas?

The Idea is to force more supply on the market , drive down cost and force oil to operate by volume ..... Get people back to using more energy ...... I heard on the seris radio that America has dropped consumption of energy by 4 % .....

[spdirty]

The Idea is to force more supply on the market , drive down cost and force oil to operate by volume ..... Get people back to using more energy ......


Heard an idea on the radio today...Don't remember who said it, but someone said that President Bush should release a third of the Strategic Petro Reserve to drive down prices in the short term and make these ****in speculators lose their shirts. That obviously would hurt in the long run though. Also heard that Soros is bigtime selling short on oil.


I heard on the seris radio that America has dropped consumption of energy by 4 % .....

yeah I can see it everyday in Denver. Not many trucks on the road anymore, like there use to be.;..by trucks Im not talkin what you drive, but F 150s, F 250s, etc. And there isn't hardly a rush hour anymore, unless there is construction or a wreck.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

The Idea is to force more supply on the market , drive down cost and force oil to operate by volume ..... Get people back to using more energy ...... I heard on the seris radio that America has dropped consumption of energy by 4 % .....

And they simply just dont NEED all of it. The windfall tax can help fund other stuff. Oil companies are making record profits and apparently are operating at capacity.

I'm glad that the high prices are making america take action. In time, this will help the market correction but there will be more of a public call for alternative energy. We should get used to it, embrace it. It'll be better for our long term progress as well as the environment.

[spdirty]

And they simply just dont NEED all of it. The windfall tax can help fund other stuff. Oil companies are making record profits and apparently are operating at capacity.

I'm glad that the high prices are making america take action. In time, this will help the market correction but there will be more of a public call for alternative energy. We should get used to it, embrace it. It'll be better for our long term progress as well as the environment.

Tell that to the .5% of the country who got laid off because of this shlt.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Tell that to the .5% of the country who got laid off because of this shlt.

talking to someone who has been laid off from big corporations...i dont blame the tax or the system, i blame the corporations who refuse to cut corners in others ways. Some companies do this (i can think of a few in the LA area) to keep staff on.

[Spider]

And they simply just dont NEED all of it. The windfall tax can help fund other stuff. Oil companies are making record profits and apparently are operating at capacity. Dont bull**** me ....

I'm glad that the high prices are making america take action. In time, this will help the market correction but there will be more of a public call for alternative energy. We should get used to it, embrace it. It'll be better for our long term progress as well as the environment.

you better think long and hard about High fuel prices .... Notice how your local store shelves are getting bare ?
Or Stores selling out of an Item and not replenishing fast enough ?

[Spider]

Plant a ****ing tree

[Bronco_Beerslug]

2 questions. What is the windfall profits tax going to accomplish and what is it going to do to lower the price of gas?The premise is to use the billions for alternative and renewable energy to move away from oil.

[Spider]

Build more nuclear plants !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Build more nuclear plants !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Probably one of the worst ideas out there. Incredibly expensive to build,
takes 4 -6 times as long (10-12 years) to construct as conventional power plants do and the nuclear waste is here forever.

[W*GS]

The usual populist dolts are out in full force...

[Spider]

Probably one of the worst ideas out there. Incredibly expensive to build,
takes 4 -6 times as long (10-12 years) to construct as conventional power plants do and the nuclear waste is here forever.
Then we had better get started ....and if the french can do it , we can ..... Yucca mountain

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Then we had better get started ....and if the french can do it , we can ..... Yucca mountainAnother bad idea...

-----------------------------------------------------------

Yucca Mountain Repository (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain) is the proposed U.S. Department of Energy deep geological repository storage facility for spent nuclear reactor fuel and other radioactive waste. The repository is located in a desert on federal land adjacent to the Nevada Test Site in Nye County, Nevada, about 80 miles from the Las Vegas metroplitan area. The repository lies within Yucca Mountain, a ridge line in the south-central part of the U.S. state of Nevada. The ridge is composed of volcanic material (mostly tuff) ejected from a now-extinct caldera-forming supervolcano.

The idea of storing radioactive waste in Yucca Mountain is controversial. Opponents argue that climate, erosion, earthquakes, and other natural forces would make it an unstable and unsuitable place for storage. The Department of Energy was to begin accepting spent fuel at the Yucca Mountain Repository by January 31, 1998 but has yet to do so because of a series of delays due to legal challenges, allegations of fraudulent geologic analysis,[citation needed] concerns over how to transport nuclear waste to the facility, and political pressures resulting in underfunding of the construction. There is currently no official date set for opening the facility.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Criminal Charges in Yucca Mountain Email Science Scandal (http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/apr2006/2006-04-28-03.asp)

WASHINGTON, DC, April 28, 2006 (ENS) – Federal prosecutors have decided not to file criminal charges against three government workers who allegedly falsified water research data on the Yucca Mountain nuclear waste repository project. A report by Department of Energy (DOE) Inspector General Gregory Friedman released Tuesday stops short of recommending criminal prosecutions.

The workers were running computer models on water infiltration and climate, crucial factors in determining the overall safety of a potential nuclear waste repository at Yucca Mountain. Water permeation at the repository could corrode containers holding nuclear waste, resulting in radioactive leaks.

The DOE is attempting to obtain a license from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to construct a nuclear waste repository at Yucca Mountain, located at the edge of the Nevada Test Site, 90 miles northwest of Las Vegas.

Joseph Hevesi is the primary author of the emails that appear to indicate the data used in scientific studies at the Yucca Mountain Project was falsified. During the time period in question from 1995 through 2000, Hevesi worked as a hydrologist on the Yucca Mountain Project for the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), which was contracted by the DOE. Since then, Hevesi has moved to Sacramento, California where he continues to work as a scientist for USGS.

[Spider]

Another bad idea...

-----------------------------------------------------------

Yucca Mountain Repository (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain) is the proposed U.S. Department of Energy deep geological repository storage facility for spent nuclear reactor fuel and other radioactive waste. The repository is located in a desert on federal land adjacent to the Nevada Test Site in Nye County, Nevada, about 80 miles from the Las Vegas metroplitan area. The repository lies within Yucca Mountain, a ridge line in the south-central part of the U.S. state of Nevada. The ridge is composed of volcanic material (mostly tuff) ejected from a now-extinct caldera-forming supervolcano.

The idea of storing radioactive waste in Yucca Mountain is controversial. Opponents argue that climate, erosion, earthquakes, and other natural forces would make it an unstable and unsuitable place for storage. The Department of Energy was to begin accepting spent fuel at the Yucca Mountain Repository by January 31, 1998 but has yet to do so because of a series of delays due to legal challenges, allegations of fraudulent geologic analysis,[citation needed] concerns over how to transport nuclear waste to the facility, and political pressures resulting in underfunding of the construction. There is currently no official date set for opening the facility.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Criminal Charges in Yucca Mountain Email Science Scandal (http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/apr2006/2006-04-28-03.asp)

WASHINGTON, DC, April 28, 2006 (ENS) – Federal prosecutors have decided not to file criminal charges against three government workers who allegedly falsified water research data on the Yucca Mountain nuclear waste repository project. A report by Department of Energy (DOE) Inspector General Gregory Friedman released Tuesday stops short of recommending criminal prosecutions.

The workers were running computer models on water infiltration and climate, crucial factors in determining the overall safety of a potential nuclear waste repository at Yucca Mountain. Water permeation at the repository could corrode containers holding nuclear waste, resulting in radioactive leaks.

The DOE is attempting to obtain a license from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to construct a nuclear waste repository at Yucca Mountain, located at the edge of the Nevada Test Site, 90 miles northwest of Las Vegas.

Joseph Hevesi is the primary author of the emails that appear to indicate the data used in scientific studies at the Yucca Mountain Project was falsified. During the time period in question from 1995 through 2000, Hevesi worked as a hydrologist on the Yucca Mountain Project for the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), which was contracted by the DOE. Since then, Hevesi has moved to Sacramento, California where he continues to work as a scientist for USGS.

Find another mountain , drop it in the ocean , Put it in fancy barrels and sell it to the Arabs , or recycle it like the French do

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Find another mountain , drop it in the ocean , Put it in fancy barrels and sell it to the Arabs , or recycle it like the French doUh no, the French bury the overwhelming majority of it and now are dealing with 3 different water basins contaminated with nuclear waste.

[Spider]

Uh no, the French bury the overwhelming majority of it and now are dealing with 3 different water basins contaminated with nuclear waste.

well we just wont bury near a water table .. problem solved . ......Go nuke

[Bronco_Beerslug]

well we just wont bury near a water table .. problem solved . ......Go nukeNukes (new construction) are basically dead (which is a good thing).

[spdirty]

Then we had better get started ....and if the french can do it , we can ..... Yucca mountain

I heard if there is no opposition to Yucca then it would still take till 2020 before we can start storing nuke waste there. All the beaurocratic bull****.

[Spider]

Nukes (new construction) are basically dead (which is a good thing).

Nuclear power is a good thing

[Spider]

I heard if there is no opposition to Yucca then it would still take till 2020 before we can start storing nuke waste there. All the beaurocratic bull****.
Then we better get started

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Heard an idea on the radio today...Don't remember who said it, but someone said that President Bush should release a third of the Strategic Petro Reserve to drive down prices in the short term and make these ****in speculators lose their shirts.

That would be a great short-term strategy (better than a bunch of penny-ante "stimulus" checks) but it's never going to happen because the smirking pinhead works for the oil companies and their shareholders - not the American people (surely you've figured this out by now?)

Similarly, Bush just squashed a proposal to end speculative oil pricing (which dictates ~1/3 of the price of a barrel of oil.)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Why not a huge tax on hollywood they make a ton of money and put out **** movies?

:rofl:

Are you kidding me?

Next to the oil companies, the studios look like welfare cases.

I'd almost rather see a true socialist move where the govt creates a competing oil company and goes out and pumps some ridiculous amount. Flood the market and make oil cheap agian.

You'd better be careful with that kind of talk - W*GS will add you to his axis of evil and start comparing you to Stalin. ;)

[W*GS]

You'd better be careful with that kind of talk - W*GS will add you to his axis of evil and start comparing you to Stalin. ;)

You're a retard.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

...or maybe he'll just opt for the ad hominem and declare another one of his imaginary victories.

[W*GS]

You're still a retard. And a liar and coward to boot.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Clearly, W*GS has been wearing these for so long he's completely lost touch with reality...

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2472/kneepads1xa9.jpg (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/)

[W*GS]

A socialist who won't even concede he's a socialist, and who believes the 9/11 Bull**** Movement, is in no position to make claims about reality...

[TailgateNut]

One word says it all. "PREDICTABLE".

[broncofan7]

Oil--being as it is such a neccessity for every other facet of our economy to function and way of life, need to be federalized just as the Airlines do. End of story.

[W*GS]

Oil--being as it is such a neccessity for every other facet of our economy to function and way of life, need to be federalized just as the Airlines do. End of story.

That will guarantee that things will be completely and totally ****ed up.

[Spider]

That will guarantee that things will be completely and totally ****ed up.

What no comment on the other thread ? let that be a lesson to you .. dont **** with Spider .....So Gubermint would **** up oil hey ...... what proof do you have of this ?

[cutthemdown]

But it's smart to give them subsidies and tax breaks other companies don't enjoy? That's what most of this about. Profit taxes shouldn't be considered though.

I'm not against re-evaluating subsidies meant to encourage exploration etc if those subsidies are proved to not be helping oil exploration. I'm just against one certain sector being singled out for a higher tax. That seems really unamerican to me. Where would it stop? Are we going to tax any company that makes to much profit? Besides a tax like this would have some sort of really bad backlash on consumers of gas I just know it. The only way to lower our price is to increase supply. I'm not sure how the govt getting extra tax would help us out? explain again how Obama would give this gas tax money back to us?

[BMF Bronco]

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dont know if this has been posted just yet, and I figured this was as good of thread as any to post.

As far as the content, all I can say is WOW!!!

[RaiderH8r]

Holy Christ, so many misconceptions I don't know where to start.

Profits-Oil industry rate of return is slightly above the average (8.2%) of all US industries. Banking and computer software are orders of magnitude higher.

A windfall profits tax is not a new idea. It failed in the 80s it would be a failure again, doing nothing to lower prices and increasing foreign oil imports.

Congress passed, and the president signed, a bill to halt SPRO fill shipments earlier this year.

The current gas price is the culmination of decades of BANANA and NOPE policies by hippies. (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything and Not On Planet Earth). See also nuclear power builds.

62% of US reserves are located in the OCS. 80% of the OCS (outer continental shelf) is off limits.

Nuclear, renewables, solar, wind, oil and natural gas are all part of a cogent energy plan.

The futures market/speculators are allowed to do business based more on market sentiment than anything. Currently the sentiment is that consumption will outpace supply. If the US adds more supply to the global market that sentiment subsides. If you support throwing SPRO oil onto the market to drive out speculators in the short term then increasing US contributions to global supply should be considered for mid to long term solution as well.

The US is the 3rd largest oil producer in the world.

Most US imports come from Canada, then Mexico. Saudi Arabia ranks third.

The "Big 5" oil companies hold, collectively, less than 6% of total world oil reserves. To suggest they are colluding within themselves to drive prices up is ludicrous. 6% does not give you the whip hand in price control.

New cars/CAFE standards are fine. More efficiency is a great area for improvement. Another area would be allowing telecommuting for applicable industries.

[W*GS]

What no comment on the other thread ? let that be a lesson to you .. dont **** with Spider .....So Gubermint would **** up oil hey ...... what proof do you have of this ?

Look at the current situation.

Billions and billions in subsidies (explicit and implicit [read Iraq War]) for a start.

[Spider]

Look at the current situation.

Billions and billions in subsidies (explicit and implicit [read Iraq War]) for a start.

GWB ****ed that up ....next

[Bob]

What a dumb article -- the fact is the taxes would have been passed on to us -- I don’t want to pay a $1.50 more per gallon.

The fact is there are some who want us to all live like the Amish all for the sake of imagined global warming, and the 21st century Druid faith. The same ones who complain about high prices for oil are unwilling to build refineries, unwilling to use Nuke power, unwilling to explore off our own shores like China, who is drilling just outside of 50 miles off our shores ( are they going to be more careful than us?) We are unwilling to develop coal to fuel that is possible to do for about $50.00 a barrel from sources right here in Montana. Europe is building 40 coal to oil plants right now -- and we can’t do it? France gets 80% of their electric power from nukes -- and we cant do it? China is on pace to be consuming more oil than us within 10 years -- if we are weak and our land is full of untapped resources it is not unconceivable that they just take it (our buy it) from us ( a year after we have several terrorist nukes go off -- and we don’t know for sure who set off the bombs to so we can retaliate, that is.)

[Bob]

Holy Christ, so many misconceptions I don't know where to start.

Profits-Oil industry rate of return is slightly above the average (8.2%) of all US industries. Banking and computer software are orders of magnitude higher.

A windfall profits tax is not a new idea. It failed in the 80s it would be a failure again, doing nothing to lower prices and increasing foreign oil imports.

Congress passed, and the president signed, a bill to halt SPRO fill shipments earlier this year.

The current gas price is the culmination of decades of BANANA and NOPE policies by hippies. (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything and Not On Planet Earth). See also nuclear power builds.

62% of US reserves are located in the OCS. 80% of the OCS (outer continental shelf) is off limits.

Nuclear, renewables, solar, wind, oil and natural gas are all part of a cogent energy plan.

The futures market/speculators are allowed to do business based more on market sentiment than anything. Currently the sentiment is that consumption will outpace supply. If the US adds more supply to the global market that sentiment subsides. If you support throwing SPRO oil onto the market to drive out speculators in the short term then increasing US contributions to global supply should be considered for mid to long term solution as well.

The US is the 3rd largest oil producer in the world.

Most US imports come from Canada, then Mexico. Saudi Arabia ranks third.

The "Big 5" oil companies hold, collectively, less than 6% of total world oil reserves. To suggest they are colluding within themselves to drive prices up is ludicrous. 6% does not give you the whip hand in price control.

New cars/CAFE standards are fine. More efficiency is a great area for improvement. Another area would be allowing telecommuting for applicable industries.

I am sorry sir, there are too many facts here -- you must not yet been converted to the new secular HOPE -- that living like Amish, and hating the USA will bring you. Haven’t you heard, over, and over, and over how evil those are who provide energy to our lovely country and how they hate the planet? How dare they get profit in America!!! In the new HOPE the Big Brother will bring us -- they will tell big businesses how much they can earn. Better yet -- help us take the businesses and give them to the government -- that would be the most fair -- that way we can have more shared prosperity. Were you not there to see our senators drill the evil oil company executives for their 8.2% profits? who have wisely blocked them from drilling icky oil at every turn and getting at more domestic oil here?

[Bronco Jamus]

Holy Christ, so many misconceptions I don't know where to start.

Profits-Oil industry rate of return is slightly above the average (8.2%) of all US industries. Banking and computer software are orders of magnitude higher.

A windfall profits tax is not a new idea. It failed in the 80s it would be a failure again, doing nothing to lower prices and increasing foreign oil imports.

Congress passed, and the president signed, a bill to halt SPRO fill shipments earlier this year.

The current gas price is the culmination of decades of BANANA and NOPE policies by hippies. (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything and Not On Planet Earth). See also nuclear power builds.

62% of US reserves are located in the OCS. 80% of the OCS (outer continental shelf) is off limits.

Nuclear, renewables, solar, wind, oil and natural gas are all part of a cogent energy plan.

The futures market/speculators are allowed to do business based more on market sentiment than anything. Currently the sentiment is that consumption will outpace supply. If the US adds more supply to the global market that sentiment subsides. If you support throwing SPRO oil onto the market to drive out speculators in the short term then increasing US contributions to global supply should be considered for mid to long term solution as well.

The US is the 3rd largest oil producer in the world.

Most US imports come from Canada, then Mexico. Saudi Arabia ranks third.

The "Big 5" oil companies hold, collectively, less than 6% of total world oil reserves. To suggest they are colluding within themselves to drive prices up is ludicrous. 6% does not give you the whip hand in price control.

New cars/CAFE standards are fine. More efficiency is a great area for improvement. Another area would be allowing telecommuting for applicable industries.

Excellent post.

[W*GS]

GWB ****ed that up ....next

GWB, and Congress, and stretching back decades, both parties, asshole.

[Crushaholic]

Windfall taxes so Big Politics can waste the money? No, thanks.

[Dukes]

With a profit margin around 8-10% the government is making more money off taxes than the oil companies are. That makes a whole lot of sense.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The futures market/speculators are allowed to do business based more on market sentiment than anything. Currently the sentiment is that consumption will outpace supply. If the US adds more supply to the global market that sentiment subsides. Our oil thirst is so great along with Asia sucking it up at an ever increasing rate that no matter how many holes we drill in the country we aren't going to make a real dent in our consumption or world consumption, especially since virtually all of the oil that remains in our grasp is sour crude.

[Bob]

A socialist who won't even concede he's a socialist, and who believes the 9/11 Bull**** Movement, is in no position to make claims about reality...

I guess you just lack faith and hope (the kind without content and substance that is...)

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Our oil thirst is so great along with Asia sucking it up at an ever increasing rate that no matter how many holes we drill in the country we aren't going to make a real dent in our consumption or world consumption, especially since virtually all of the oil that remains in our grasp is sour crude.

Well, it would make gas cheaper in the short term, but its certainly not the long term solution and that money is better spent in alternative fuel if you ask me.

[Bob]

Our oil thirst is so great along with Asia sucking it up at an ever increasing rate that no matter how many holes we drill in the country we aren't going to make a real dent in our consumption or world consumption, especially since virtually all of the oil that remains in our grasp is sour crude.

Montana's democrat governor would tell you that we have over 100 years worth of fuel from coal in Montana alone. I say comeup with all kinds of options -- solar is going to take off in the coming years -- but until then... I say drill through the head of a polar bear if need be.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Montana's democrat governor would tell you that we have over 100 years worth of fuel from coal in Montana alone. I say comeup with all kinds of options -- solar is going to take off in the coming years -- but until then... I say drill through the head of a polar bear if need be.

classy

[orinjkrush]

the PRICE of oil is independent to the DEMAND and the SUPPLY for oil.
the scary part is that the Amerikan sheeples are so inured to all of it that they just follow along.
we desparately need somebody like Ron Paul to shake the mutherfu@@ers up.

[Spider]

GWB, and Congress, and stretching back decades, both parties, a-hole.

we have been in Iraq war for decades ?

[W*GS]

we have been in Iraq war for decades ?

The usual Jethro comment...

We've been ****ing with the market for oil for decades, asswipe.

[W*GS]

Our oil thirst is so great along with Asia sucking it up at an ever increasing rate that no matter how many holes we drill in the country we aren't going to make a real dent in our consumption or world consumption, especially since virtually all of the oil that remains in our grasp is sour crude.

Bingo.

[Spider]

The usual Jethro comment...

We've been ****ing with the market for oil for decades, asswipe.

But you clearly stated Iraq numbnuts .........

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Montana's democrat governor would tell you that we have over 100 years worth of fuel from coal in Montana alone. I say comeup with all kinds of options -- solar is going to take off in the coming years -- but until then... I say drill through the head of a polar bear if need be.Between Montana, ND and Wyo. we have over 300 years of coal to power the country. Using coal to make gas is a technology we need to move to along with coal (CO2) sequestering power plants. If I were the man I'd make sure this country became the world leader in alternative and renewable energy technology spending hundreds of billions to do it. If we can spend multi trillions for invading and occupying foreign countries we can afford to spend the same to become truly independent of foreign oil and oil itself eventually.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Profits-Oil industry rate of return is slightly above the average (8.2%) of all US industries. Banking and computer software are orders of magnitude higher.


:laugh:

What a load of crap that is!

Where in the world did you get that figure?

The record profits Exxon, et al, have reported since GeeDubya has been in office are just that: profit.

The argument that those figures don't take the "cost of doing business" into account is a load of crap (as I have shown over and over.)



The current gas price is the culmination of decades of BANANA and NOPE policies by hippies. (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything and Not On Planet Earth). See also nuclear power builds.

:bs:

It's not the "hippies" - it's the oil companies themselves who manipulate supply in order to drive up prices, fatten their bottom lines, and make their shareholders happy.

They hated it when Clinton was in office, supply was plentiful, and oil was trading at ~$30/barrel.

Dick Cheney basically told them "get us in and we'll drive the price up."


The futures market/speculators are allowed to do business based more on market sentiment than anything.

Speculative oil pricing now accounts for ~1/3 of the price of a barrel of oil (independent of supply/demand issues and production costs.)

We have your party to thank for the market deregulation that made this possible.

The "Big 5" oil companies hold, collectively, less than 6% of total world oil reserves. To suggest they are colluding within themselves to drive prices up is ludicrous. 6% does not give you the whip hand in price control.


:bs:

Texaco, et al, have been caught red-handed deliberately limiting refining capacity to drive prices up. This has been well-documented.

Also, the "Big 5s" control of reserves is not the only variable here - the greenback's status as fiat currency is the other one.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

More re: speculative oil pricing:

As far as “buying on margin” consider this summary from author William Engdahl:

“A conservative calculation is that at least 60% of today’s $128 per barrel price of crude oil comes from unregulated futures speculation by hedge funds, banks and financial groups using the London ICE Futures and New York NYMEX futures exchanges and uncontrolled inter-bank or Over-The-Counter trading to avoid scrutiny. US margin rules of the government’s Commodity Futures Trading Commission allow speculators to buy a crude oil futures contract on the Nymex, by having to pay only 6% of the value of the contract. At today's price of $128 per barrel, that means a futures trader only has to put up about $8 for every barrel. He borrows the other $120. This extreme “leverage” of 16 to 1 helps drive prices to wildly unrealistic levels and offset bank losses in sub-prime and other disasters at the expense of the overall population.”

So the investment banks and their trading partners at the hedge funds can game the system for a mere 8 bucks per barrel or 16 to 1 leverage. Not bad, eh?

Is it possible that gambling on oil futures might be a temptation for banks that are already underwater from a trillion dollars worth of mortgage-related deals that have “gone south” leaving the banking system essentially bankrupt?

And if the banks and hedgies are not playing this game, then where is the money coming from? I have compiled charts and graphs that show that nearly two-thirds of the big investment banks' revenue came from the securitization of commercial and residential real estate loans. That market is frozen. Besides, this is not just a matter of “loan delinquencies” or MBS that have to be written off. The banks are "revenue starved". How are they filling the coffers? They're either neck-deep in interest rate swaps, derivatives trading, or gaming the futures market. Which is it?

Of course, there is one other possibility, but if that possibility turned out to be right than it would cast doubt on the legitimacy of the entire financial system. In fact, it would prove that the system is being rigged from the top-down by our friends at the Banking Politburo, the Federal Reserve. Here goes:

What if the investment banks are trading their worthless MBS and CDOs at the Fed's auction facilities and using the money ($400 billion) to drive up the price of raw materials like rice, corn, wheat, and oil?
Could it be? Could the Fed really be looking the other way so it can bail out its banking buddies while they drive prices skyward?

If it is true; (and I suspect it is) it hasn't done much good. As the Associated Press reported yesterday:
“The Federal Reserve announced Thursday that it will make a fresh batch of short-term cash loans available to squeezed banks as part of an ongoing effort to ease stressed credit markets. The Fed said it will conduct three auctions in June, with each one making $75 billion available in short-term cash loans. Banks can bid for a slice of the available funds. It would mark the latest round in a program that the Fed launched in December to help banks overcome credit problems so they will keep lending to customers.”

Another $225 billion for the bankers and not a dime for the struggling homeowner! The Fed is bankrupting the country with their permanent rotating loans to keep reckless speculators from going under. So much for moral hazard.

As far as speculation, there is ample evidence that the system is being manipulated. According to MarketWatch:

“Speculative activity in commodity markets has grown "enormously" over the past several years, the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee said in a news release. It pointed out that in five years, from 2003 to 2008, investment in the index funds tied to commodities has grown by 20-fold -- to $260 billion from $13 billion.”
And here's a revealing clip from the testimony of Michael W. Masters of Masters Capital Management, LLC, who addressed the issue of “Commodities Speculation” before the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs this week:
“Today, Index Speculators are pouring billions of dollars into the commodities futures
markets, speculating that commodity prices will increase. ...In the popular press the explanation given most often for rising oil prices is the increased demand for oil from China. According to the DOE, annual Chinese demand for petroleum has increased over the last five years from 1.88 billion barrels to 2.8 billion barrels, an increase of 920 million barrels.8 Over the same five-year period, Index Speculatorsʼ demand for petroleum futures has increased by 848 million barrels. THE INCREASE IN DEMAND FROM INDEX SPECULATORS IS ALMOST EQUAL TO THE INCREASE IN DEMAND FROM CHINA.

[Bob]

classy

I think they are taking over -- 5000 to 25,000 over the past three decades --

I am just trying to do my part to make the policy of now suddenly putting them on the threatened species list sound more reasonable.:yayaya:

I mean, I wouldnt want it to seem like a political ploy to make it more difficult for companies to drill in such areas, or to use them as another excuse to reduce greenhouse gases and the wind-fall tax revenue generated by said taxes...

[Bob]

the PRICE of oil is independent to the DEMAND and the SUPPLY for oil.
the scary part is that the Amerikan sheeples are so inured to all of it that they just follow along.
we desparately need somebody like Ron Paul to shake the mutherfu@@ers up.

Is it really independent? I am not suggesting an exact and equal correlation -- but if you are a speculator – bidding on oil futures -- and the trend is for more oil to be coming online in the coming years -- the cost would be hard to prop up I would think. Also – the fact is there is increasing global demand for oil with India and China’s economies coming online. IF there is a finite amount of oil available (many believe in the peak oil theory – that we have reached that point) demand is increasing at the very time when the world's capacity to get it is at its peak. Mexico and the Saudis oil fields (many feel) are old, and are likely to start declining in the coming years.

Another factor in the spike in oil price is the devalued dollar -- prices have gone up much higher in the US relative to Europe (about three times faster in recent years) due to our devalued currency.

[Bob]

More re: speculative oil pricing:

As far as “buying on margin” consider this summary from author William Engdahl:

“A conservative calculation is that at least 60% of today’s $128 per barrel price of crude oil comes from unregulated futures speculation by hedge funds, banks and financial groups using the London ICE Futures and New York NYMEX futures exchanges and uncontrolled inter-bank or Over-The-Counter trading to avoid scrutiny. US margin rules of the government’s Commodity Futures Trading Commission allow speculators to buy a crude oil futures contract on the Nymex, by having to pay only 6% of the value of the contract. At today's price of $128 per barrel, that means a futures trader only has to put up about $8 for every barrel. He borrows the other $120. This extreme “leverage” of 16 to 1 helps drive prices to wildly unrealistic levels and offset bank losses in sub-prime and other disasters at the expense of the overall population.”

So the investment banks and their trading partners at the hedge funds can game the system for a mere 8 bucks per barrel or 16 to 1 leverage. Not bad, eh?

Is it possible that gambling on oil futures might be a temptation for banks that are already underwater from a trillion dollars worth of mortgage-related deals that have “gone south” leaving the banking system essentially bankrupt?

And if the banks and hedgies are not playing this game, then where is the money coming from? I have compiled charts and graphs that show that nearly two-thirds of the big investment banks' revenue came from the securitization of commercial and residential real estate loans. That market is frozen. Besides, this is not just a matter of “loan delinquencies” or MBS that have to be written off. The banks are "revenue starved". How are they filling the coffers? They're either neck-deep in interest rate swaps, derivatives trading, or gaming the futures market. Which is it?

Of course, there is one other possibility, but if that possibility turned out to be right than it would cast doubt on the legitimacy of the entire financial system. In fact, it would prove that the system is being rigged from the top-down by our friends at the Banking Politburo, the Federal Reserve. Here goes:

What if the investment banks are trading their worthless MBS and CDOs at the Fed's auction facilities and using the money ($400 billion) to drive up the price of raw materials like rice, corn, wheat, and oil?
Could it be? Could the Fed really be looking the other way so it can bail out its banking buddies while they drive prices skyward?

If it is true; (and I suspect it is) it hasn't done much good. As the Associated Press reported yesterday:
“The Federal Reserve announced Thursday that it will make a fresh batch of short-term cash loans available to squeezed banks as part of an ongoing effort to ease stressed credit markets. The Fed said it will conduct three auctions in June, with each one making $75 billion available in short-term cash loans. Banks can bid for a slice of the available funds. It would mark the latest round in a program that the Fed launched in December to help banks overcome credit problems so they will keep lending to customers.”

Another $225 billion for the bankers and not a dime for the struggling homeowner! The Fed is bankrupting the country with their permanent rotating loans to keep reckless speculators from going under. So much for moral hazard.

As far as speculation, there is ample evidence that the system is being manipulated. According to MarketWatch:

“Speculative activity in commodity markets has grown "enormously" over the past several years, the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee said in a news release. It pointed out that in five years, from 2003 to 2008, investment in the index funds tied to commodities has grown by 20-fold -- to $260 billion from $13 billion.”
And here's a revealing clip from the testimony of Michael W. Masters of Masters Capital Management, LLC, who addressed the issue of “Commodities Speculation” before the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs this week:
“Today, Index Speculators are pouring billions of dollars into the commodities futures
markets, speculating that commodity prices will increase. ...In the popular press the explanation given most often for rising oil prices is the increased demand for oil from China. According to the DOE, annual Chinese demand for petroleum has increased over the last five years from 1.88 billion barrels to 2.8 billion barrels, an increase of 920 million barrels.8 Over the same five-year period, Index Speculatorsʼ demand for petroleum futures has increased by 848 million barrels. THE INCREASE IN DEMAND FROM INDEX SPECULATORS IS ALMOST EQUAL TO THE INCREASE IN DEMAND FROM CHINA.

Thanks for the post ...good info that doesnt surprise me...as far as the speculation in oil futures go...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Thanks for the post ...good info that doesnt surprise me...as far as the speculation in oil futures go...

No problem.

Just one more example of market deregulation run amok - but if you call for better regulation you're immediately denounced as a "socialist" by the usual straw man artists.

Once again: I have no problem with commodities being privately traded or with people making money - but not at the expense of the entire global economy.

[W*GS]

It's not the "hippies" - it's the oil companies themselves who manipulate supply [...]

How? Almost the entire oil supply of the entire world is under the control of governments, not Big Oil.

Texaco, et al, have been caught red-handed deliberately limiting refining capacity to drive prices up. This has been well-documented.

Those memos are from more than 10 years ago - on Clinton's watch.

How did that happen?

[W*GS]

But you clearly stated Iraq numbnuts .........

Not just Iraq, moron.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

W*GS with the silly half-truth.

So are you saying that all those governments extract their oil, bring it to market, and refine it all by themselves with no help from the Big 5?

And re: Texaco getting caught manipulating refining capacity - of course they are going to try that sort of thing more on Clinton's watch.

They hated $30/barrel oil.

[broncocalijohn]

Between Montana, ND and Wyo. we have over 300 years of coal to power the country. Using coal to make gas is a technology we need to move to along with coal (CO2) sequestering power plants. If I were the man I'd make sure this country became the world leader in alternative and renewable energy technology spending hundreds of billions to do it. If we can spend multi trillions for invading and occupying foreign countries we can afford to spend the same to become truly independent of foreign oil and oil itself eventually.

Try getting the Dems to allow the plants to be built. Cuba is their model plan. No new nuclear plants, no drilling anywhere in the Arctic or ocean and who will be alive to show how to run these nuclear plants if we finally do get some in the near future. People think of coal as dirty and will do whatever it takes to make sure that isnt used. I hope so as I have stock in coal companies. China is all over it but we wont. There will be talk of alternate means to have a substitute for oil, but in the mean time, we will be screwed.

[Rohirrim]

A conservative calculation is that at least 60% of today’s $128 per barrel price of crude oil comes from unregulated futures speculation by hedge funds, banks and financial groups using the London ICE Futures and New York NYMEX futures exchanges and uncontrolled inter-bank or Over-The-Counter trading to avoid scrutiny. US margin rules of the government’s Commodity Futures Trading Commission allow speculators to buy a crude oil futures contract on the Nymex, by having to pay only 6% of the value of the contract. At today's price of $128 per barrel, that means a futures trader only has to put up about $8 for every barrel. He borrows the other $120. This extreme “leverage” of 16 to 1 helps drive prices to wildly unrealistic levels and offset bank losses in sub-prime and other disasters at the expense of the overall population.”

Ahhh, the joys of free market capitalism. This is a good lesson for those who believe in unregulated markets. Just as the purpose of a tri-partite government is to control the avariciousness of man, a regulated market is required to control the inherent greed of man. As the above illustration so amply proves, for some their greed is so overpowering they will saw off the branch upon which they are sitting if it makes their asset numbers climb. Like they say, a junkie will steal his own mother's social security check and cash it for a fix. Same element at work here.

[W*GS]

So are you saying that all those governments extract their oil, bring it to market, and refine it all by themselves with no help from the Big 5?

Governments dictate the supply of oil, since they control almost every single drop of it. It doesn't come out of the ground without their say-so.

And re: Texaco getting caught manipulating refining capacity - of course they are going to try that sort of thing more on Clinton's watch.

They hated $30/barrel oil.

It was that $30/bbl (and less) oil that has caused part of the problem today. Can you give me some reasons why? You might have to do some serious Googling to find someone whose rhetoric is sufficiently left-wing for you...

[Spider]

Not just Iraq, moron.

so then you should have stated as much dip **** ........
Our Military is ran by Gubermint you goober . Finest Military the world has ever seen .......
Postal service = Best the in the world , ran by our gubermint ......Dick weed
our gubermint itself , sure it has problems , but the best gubermint in the world , specially governering 300 Million people and 10 idiots like yourself and Yavoon , and 8 others I wont name posting here ..
Schools need some over hauling , but over all our schools are competitive .....

[W*GS]

Ahhh, the joys of free market capitalism. This is a good lesson for those who believe in unregulated markets.

How so? The market and governmental regulation are so intertwined you can't just point out something you deem bad and call that part "the market" just to make a point.

Just as the purpose of a tri-partite government is to control the avariciousness of man, a regulated market is required to control the inherent greed of man.

Greed doesn't apply just to money - it applies to political power as well. There's far more opportunity to indulge greed in the political realm...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

A conservative calculation is that at least 60% of today’s $128 per barrel price of crude oil comes from unregulated futures speculation by hedge funds, banks and financial groups using the London ICE Futures and New York NYMEX futures exchanges and uncontrolled inter-bank or Over-The-Counter trading to avoid scrutiny. US margin rules of the government’s Commodity Futures Trading Commission allow speculators to buy a crude oil futures contract on the Nymex, by having to pay only 6% of the value of the contract. At today's price of $128 per barrel, that means a futures trader only has to put up about $8 for every barrel. He borrows the other $120. This extreme “leverage” of 16 to 1 helps drive prices to wildly unrealistic levels and offset bank losses in sub-prime and other disasters at the expense of the overall population.”

Ahhh, the joys of free market capitalism. This is a good lesson for those who believe in unregulated markets. Just as the purpose of a tri-partite government is to control the avariciousness of man, a regulated market is required to control the inherent greed of man. As the above illustration so amply proves, for some their greed is so overpowering they will saw off the branch upon which they are sitting if it makes their asset numbers climb. Like they say, a junkie will steal his own mother's social security check and cash it for a fix. Same element at work here.

Exactly.

For these jackals, profit is to be pursued at all costs - even if it means hosing the entire global economy.

[W*GS]

so then you should have stated as much dip **** ........

I apologize for not spelling everything out for you.

Our Military is ran by Gubermint you goober . Finest Military the world has ever seen .......

The military is far too big and too expensive, and not suited for nor being used for its proper roles.

Postal service = Best the in the world , ran by our gubermint ......

If it wasn't for the competition provided by FedEx, UPS, DHL, et.al., the USPS would still be as sucky as it used to be. It's gotten better.

our gubermint itself , sure it has problems , but the best gubermint in the world , specially governering 300 Million people and 10 idiots like yourself and Yavoon , and 8 others I wont name posting here ..

With Bush at the helm and Cheney as VP, it's still the best? Snort.

Schools need some over hauling , but over all our schools are competitive .....

Competitive with whom and in what?

[SonOfLe-loLang]

With Bush at the helm and Cheney as VP, it's still the best? Snort.



?

But I'm sure you'll even admit that government isnt the problem, it's republicans running it that is :)

[W*GS]

But I'm sure you'll even admit that government isnt the problem, it's republicans running it that is :)

I spit on Republicans and Democrats. Both are wholly incompetent.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I spit on Republicans and Democrats. Both are wholly incompetent.

Well, while i guess i cant completely fault you there, there's a lesser of two evils. Which is what american politics is all about:)

[RaiderH8r]

Our oil thirst is so great along with Asia sucking it up at an ever increasing rate that no matter how many holes we drill in the country we aren't going to make a real dent in our consumption or world consumption, especially since virtually all of the oil that remains in our grasp is sour crude.

The growing trend in US refineries is to gear toward a crude slate of heavy, because of the Canadian Tar Sands. The tar sands provide a sound, long term supply to refineries who can then sign the long term contracts that make them all warm and fuzzy. The DOE is currently doing a study of Louisiana/Gulf Coast refining of sour crude due to the changes they are making in their capacity in that region. Refineries are not unable to refine sour crude, they look for long term stability in supply and if it comes from sour crude then they will make the appropriate changes to facilitate refining that product.

Moreover, this notion that whatever supply the US can add to the market will not have an impact is absurd on its face. I get paid every two weeks, each paycheck represents a relatively small amount of my overall salary. This does not mean I would not miss a paycheck and write it off as "insubstantial" in relation to my overall earnings. When supply margins are tight, and getting tighter, that is when even the smallest amount of new production will have the greatest impact.

[W*GS]

Well, while i guess i cant completely fault you there, there's a lesser of two evils. Which is what american politics is all about:)

You mean "evil of two lessers"...

[RaiderH8r]

:laugh:

What a load of crap that is!

Where in the world did you get that figure?

The record profits Exxon, et al, have reported since GeeDubya has been in office are just that: profit.

The argument that those figures don't take the "cost of doing business" into account is a load of crap (as I have shown over and over.)



:bs:

It's not the "hippies" - it's the oil companies themselves who manipulate supply in order to drive up prices, fatten their bottom lines, and make their shareholders happy.

They hated it when Clinton was in office, supply was plentiful, and oil was trading at ~$30/barrel.

Dick Cheney basically told them "get us in and we'll drive the price up."



Speculative oil pricing now accounts for ~1/3 of the price of a barrel of oil (independent of supply/demand issues and production costs.)

We have your party to thank for the market deregulation that made this possible.



:bs:

Texaco, et al, have been caught red-handed deliberately limiting refining capacity to drive prices up. This has been well-documented.

Also, the "Big 5s" control of reserves is not the only variable here - the greenback's status as fiat currency is the other one.

My apologies, my Exxon data was from 2003. I have found a more recent source for the oil and natural gas industry, in total, from 2006 (from the US Census bureau and Oil Daily) stating industry ROI was 9.5%. Pharmaceuticals-21.5%, Electrical Equipment/Appliances-14.2%, Computer products/peripherals-13.4%.

Cost of doing business is absolutely to be taken into account. Consider it can costs millions of dollars simply to get the right to take a look at a federal lease offshore. In New Mexico recently there was a bid for $210,000 to "take a look". That is money, on the table, simply to roll the dice to see what's down there. It doesn't count as a "proven" reserve on the books until you actually get through the lengthy process of getting a bit in the ground and hitting product.

Owning, collectively, in the neighborhood of 6% of anything does not give you the whip hand to dictate sh!t to the market. The hippies have hindered supply and high energy prices are exactly what they want/need to advance their agenda. For them to claim otherwise is BS.

Of course they hated it at $30/barrel, they hated it more at $10/barrel, they were losing their a**es. I can't speak for you, but for my part I don't get too excited at the prospect of losing money. But maybe that's just because I have so little of it to spare.

Speculative oil pricing. Yeah, any statement on nailing down the impact of these trades is speculative itself. Granted, I'll agree it needs to be examined, and the CFTC and DOJ are convening their task force to do that, but steps to regulate that market should be held off until there is a better sense of what is driving it. For now, I don't see a problem with increasing the margin calls on the OTC market. Everybody in the E&P side has to put up buttloads of money on these deals to get the product, Wall Street speculators should have to do the same.

[Bob]

Try getting the Dems to allow the plants to be built. Cuba is their model plan. No new nuclear plants, no drilling anywhere in the Arctic or ocean and who will be alive to show how to run these nuclear plants if we finally do get some in the near future. People think of coal as dirty and will do whatever it takes to make sure that isnt used. I hope so as I have stock in coal companies. China is all over it but we wont. There will be talk of alternate means to have a substitute for oil, but in the mean time, we will be screwed.

Yes, the Dems complain -- and attempt to blame the oil executives -- which was a damn joke that only stupid people disposed to believing that all big companies are bad would get sucked into. But there is the less spoken about "bennefit" they see of lowering emmissions for the sake of long-term "global warming." Its a dangerous game -- I honestly think that the problem that has been created will go way beyond high prices that will force us to change our habits to become more green -- to our country becoming weak and not as able to defend itself -- If you are China with huge energy needs 15 years from now, and see an America that is weak, and not consuming your products anymore because of shipping cost increases, and the USA's bad economy -- and you see Alaska and other places with plenty to untapped reserves -- well I guess we are too arrogant to think that could ever happen.

[kappys]

Yes, the Dems complain -- and attempt to blame the oil executives -- which was a damn joke that only stupid people disposed to believing that all big companies are bad would get sucked into.

Believing the oil companies(or any large corporation) are actually benign entities looking out for you is the true bad joke.

[Bronco Jamus]

Believing the oil companies(or any large corporation) are actually benign entities looking out for you is the true bad joke.

That's not what he said.

[Bronco Jamus]

My apologies, my Exxon data was from 2003. I have found a more recent source for the oil and natural gas industry, in total, from 2006 (from the US Census bureau and Oil Daily) stating industry ROI was 9.5%. Pharmaceuticals-21.5%, Electrical Equipment/Appliances-14.2%, Computer products/peripherals-13.4%.

Cost of doing business is absolutely to be taken into account. Consider it can costs millions of dollars simply to get the right to take a look at a federal lease offshore. In New Mexico recently there was a bid for $210,000 to "take a look". That is money, on the table, simply to roll the dice to see what's down there. It doesn't count as a "proven" reserve on the books until you actually get through the lengthy process of getting a bit in the ground and hitting product.

Owning, collectively, in the neighborhood of 6% of anything does not give you the whip hand to dictate sh!t to the market. The hippies have hindered supply and high energy prices are exactly what they want/need to advance their agenda. For them to claim otherwise is BS.

Of course they hated it at $30/barrel, they hated it more at $10/barrel, they were losing their a**es. I can't speak for you, but for my part I don't get too excited at the prospect of losing money. But maybe that's just because I have so little of it to spare.

Speculative oil pricing. Yeah, any statement on nailing down the impact of these trades is speculative itself. Granted, I'll agree it needs to be examined, and the CFTC and DOJ are convening their task force to do that, but steps to regulate that market should be held off until there is a better sense of what is driving it. For now, I don't see a problem with increasing the margin calls on the OTC market. Everybody in the E&P side has to put up buttloads of money on these deals to get the product, Wall Street speculators should have to do the same.

So we need a money grab on big pharm. :)

[broncocalijohn]

A conservative calculation is that at least 60% of today’s $128 per barrel price of crude oil comes from unregulated futures speculation by hedge funds, banks and financial groups using the London ICE Futures and New York NYMEX futures exchanges and uncontrolled inter-bank or Over-The-Counter trading to avoid scrutiny. US margin rules of the government’s Commodity Futures Trading Commission allow speculators to buy a crude oil futures contract on the Nymex, by having to pay only 6% of the value of the contract. At today's price of $128 per barrel, that means a futures trader only has to put up about $8 for every barrel. He borrows the other $120. This extreme “leverage” of 16 to 1 helps drive prices to wildly unrealistic levels and offset bank losses in sub-prime and other disasters at the expense of the overall population.”

Ahhh, the joys of free market capitalism. This is a good lesson for those who believe in unregulated markets. Just as the purpose of a tri-partite government is to control the avariciousness of man, a regulated market is required to control the inherent greed of man. As the above illustration so amply proves, for some their greed is so overpowering they will saw off the branch upon which they are sitting if it makes their asset numbers climb. Like they say, a junkie will steal his own mother's social security check and cash it for a fix. Same element at work here.

The futures market is one of the biggest reasons for this spike in price. To me, it is like the silver market from 25 years ago. Mind you, not one or company is doing it but it is complete crap that htis is being allowed. Believe it or not, Bill Riley has been talking about this for awhile and doesnt like it at all. There is always a point to not allow free market, but gas is a necessary good like water and food. We cant pump it ourselves like most cant raise meat or enough vegetables and fruits.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The growing trend in US refineries is to gear toward a crude slate of heavy, because of the Canadian Tar Sands. The tar sands provide a sound, long term supply to refineries who can then sign the long term contracts that make them all warm and fuzzy. The DOE is currently doing a study of Louisiana/Gulf Coast refining of sour crude due to the changes they are making in their capacity in that region. Refineries are not unable to refine sour crude, they look for long term stability in supply and if it comes from sour crude then they will make the appropriate changes to facilitate refining that product.

Moreover, this notion that whatever supply the US can add to the market will not have an impact is absurd on its face. I get paid every two weeks, each paycheck represents a relatively small amount of my overall salary. This does not mean I would not miss a paycheck and write it off as "insubstantial" in relation to my overall earnings. When supply margins are tight, and getting tighter, that is when even the smallest amount of new production will have the greatest impact.Uh, yes the largest percentage of American refineries are unable to refine sour crude at this moment. We are adding capacity at several locations across the country now but nothing near what would be needed to process all the sour crude required to make any kind of real impact in our consumption.

And making the "appropriate" changes requires hundreds of millions of dollars in equipment upgrades to do so at any one refinery.

[Spider]

I apologize for not spelling everything out for you. Apology accepted , dont let it happen again got it ?



The military is far too big and too expensive, and not suited for nor being used for its proper roles. Bull**** , dont let Rumsfeld incompetence fool you ....... Take a look at Petreaus Kicking ass in Iraq and things are getting better ..



If it wasn't for the competition provided by FedEx, UPS, DHL, et.al., the USPS would still be as sucky as it used to be. It's gotten better. another bull**** line ..... Us Postal service services everyone , those other companies have people go to them , the workload is like night and day



With Bush at the helm and Cheney as VP, it's still the best? Snort. again dont let Bush and cheney **** ups reflect government



Competitive with whom and in what?well if I use you as an example , I will lose this argument , but many of successful people have went through public schooling ...... Parents have to do their part also

[W*GS]

Bull**** , dont let Rumsfeld incompetence fool you ....... Take a look at Petreaus Kicking ass in Iraq and things are getting better ..

In the meantime, on this side of the planet, our borders are virtually open. Isn't that the military's job, protecting our borders, instead of being killed by insurgents halfway around the world in a war that doesn't serve our national interest in any way?

another bull**** line ..... Us Postal service services everyone , those other companies have people go to them , the workload is like night and day

Monopolies are good?

well if I use you as an example , I will lose this argument , but many of successful people have went through public schooling ...... Parents have to do their part also

Our experience with the public schools is why we're homeschooling all our kids. Nothing to do with Xtian silliness, 'neither.

[Rohirrim]

We put the Chinese into autos and now they're going to put us on bicycles. Ha!

[Spider]

In the meantime, on this side of the planet, our borders are virtually open. Isn't that the military's job, protecting our borders, instead of being killed by insurgents halfway around the world in a war that doesn't serve our national interest in any way? I would say National guard ... but they cant put themselfs there ........ Again your letting leadership dictate .......



Monopolies are good? where in the **** did you come up with that ? Holly horse**** batman .... Does your ass hurt after pulling that out ?



Our experience with the public schools is why we're homeschooling all our kids. Nothing to do with Xtian silliness, 'neither.
I never said you was successful , Hell I am convinced you gave someone a blow job for your degree

[W*GS]

I would say National guard ... but they cant put themselfs there ........ Again your letting leadership dictate .......

Bush is hardly the only president to put our troops at risk for idiotic reasons. It's been a trend for quite some time now... Do you remember the last time we had an official declaration of war?

where in the **** did you come up with that ? Holly horse**** batman .... Does your ass hurt after pulling that out ?

The USPS has a monopoly on 1st-class mail. Obviously, according to you, monopolies work, and work well.

I never said you was successful , Hell I am convinced you gave someone a blow job for your degree

Thanks for your comments - now we can all see the effect of too many diesel fumes on the thinking process. Tragic, really.

[Bronco Jamus]

We put the Chinese into autos and now they're going to put us on bicycles. Ha!

Lol

[Spider]

Bush is hardly the only president to put our troops at risk for idiotic reasons. It's been a trend for quite some time now... Do you remember the last time we had an official declaration of war? AGAIN that isnt the military , thats leadership .... Look here is what your are doing .... Roseanne Barr is fat , so you are blaming the fork ......



The USPS has a monopoly on 1st-class mail. Obviously, according to you, monopolies work, and work well.
Apparently not , Fed ex is in business ..But Yeah the USPS has done right by us .....Now Lets talk FDA , Infra structure , D.O.T. ....



Thanks for your comments - now we can all see the effect of too many diesel fumes on the thinking process. Tragic, really.
you are welcome , I have other observations about you I would share if you like

[RaiderH8r]

Uh, yes the largest percentage of American refineries are unable to refine sour crude at this moment. We are adding capacity at several locations across the country now but nothing near what what be needed to process all the sour crude required to make any kind of real impact in our consumption.

And making the "appropriate" changes requires hundreds of millions of dollars in equipment upgrades to do so at any one refinery.

Adding capacity, exactly. It's not as if we're going to pull out all the sour crude in the US one day and have it off to the refiner the next.

My point was more to the implication that the US needn't bother with drilling because the crude doesn't match refining capabilities. Quite simply the fact that it does cost considerable capital to make the appropriate changes in refining capability goes to my point about the refiners desire for the stable, long term supply. If they can, with any degree of certainty, believe that there will be supply enough of sour crude to justify the change over they will make it. We've seen it in PADD IV with respect to the change over to accomodate the heavy Canadian crude and there's no reason to believe that with stable supply the same couldn't be said for sour.

[Spider]

Adding capacity, exactly. It's not as if we're going to pull out all the sour crude in the US one day and have it off to the refiner the next.

My point was more to the implication that the US needn't bother with drilling because the crude doesn't match refining capabilities. Quite simply the fact that it does cost considerable capital to make the appropriate changes in refining capability goes to my point about the refiners desire for the stable, long term supply. If they can, with any degree of certainty, believe that there will be supply enough of sour crude to justify the change over they will make it. We've seen it in PADD IV with respect to the change over to accomodate the heavy Canadian crude and there's no reason to believe that with stable supply the same couldn't be said for sour.

Depends , Look China has joined the hoarders club , their excuse .... Olympics , but even with China , our cost should be around 70.00 per barrel right around 2.00 -2.35 per gallon , Sweet and sour crude , when the price widened between the 2 alot of Refineries dropped Sour , When sweet crude had rumored to Peak ¾ of the refineries in the US can handle crude , the main difference is Sour is harder to refine , and not as costly ..... I know for a fact that frontier refinery ( little by refineries standards ) can handle both ....The upper midwest is in trouble though ..... California and the Gulf Coast states went back to be able to refine Sour

[Spider]

Edit , Instead of not as costly , I should have said not as profitable .

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

We put the Chinese into autos and now they're going to put us on bicycles. Ha!

Another great Bush accomplishment spdirty can add to his list. :rofl:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

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[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

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[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The Saudi plan

While they are reaping record profits, the Saudis are concerned that today's record prices might eventually damp economic growth and lead to lower oil demand, as is already happening in the United States and other developed countries. The current prices are also making alternative fuels more viable, threatening the long-term prospects of the oil-based economy.
President Bush visited Saudi Arabia twice this year, pleading with King Abdullah to step up production. While the Saudis resisted the calls then, arguing that the markets were well supplied, they seem to have since concluded that they needed to disrupt the <SPECULATORS> momentum that has been building in commodity markets, sending prices higher.

The Saudi plans were disclosed in interviews with several oil traders and analysts who said that Saudi oil officials had privately conveyed their production plans recently to some traders and companies in the United States. The analysts declined to be identified so as not to be cut off from future information from the Saudis.

Last week, King Abdullah also took the unprecedented step of arranging on short notice a major gathering of oil producers and consumers to address the causes of the price rally. The meeting will be held on June 22 in the Red Sea town of Jeddah.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/14/business/14oil.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss</SPECULATORS>