View Full Version : First team D-line
Bigdawg26
06-05-2008, 11:02 AM
As rookies, the Broncos' draft class of 2007 had to wait. As second-year players in 2008, those same players have to wait some more.
In the Broncos' base defense, none of the kids are playing with the first team.
Jarvis Moss, Tim Crowder, Marcus Thomas and Steven Harris line up with the second team. They must stay patient while veterans John Engelberger, Alvin McKinley, Dewayne Robertson and Elvis Dumervil take their reps with the first team.
"We know we're the young guys and we've got to work to improve," said Moss, the Broncos' first-round draft pick in 2007 who is coming back from ankle and leg injuries that forced him to miss the second half of his rookie season. "We know nothing is going to be given to us. They've got there on No. 2 base, but whether we're second string or first string, we've got to work."
It's only June. There's still eight mini-camp sessions, all of training camp and the entire preseason before the final depth chart is set. Besides, Broncos defensive coordinator Bob Slowik says teams defer to veterans this time of year.
"Always," Slowik said. "They always get the first opportunity. But everybody out here also knows that every drill we do; everything that is done out here is evaluated, documented."
But Ryan Clady is a rookie, and he's playing with the first-team offense at left tackle. And to watch him handle his own against veteran starting defensive ends Dumervil and Engelberger is to understand why.
Moss and Crowder each got just one start last year, and that was at Indianapolis when the Broncos tried a gimmick, four-end defensive line against Peyton Manning. Those two will have to outplay a veteran before they get their second start this year.
The pass-rushing Moss does come in at left defensive end, with Dumervil shifting to right end, on the Broncos' No. 1 nickel package.
"I feel more and more comfortable every day," Moss said. "I'm definitely less winded, so I'm going to be there."
Man I swear to God if engelberger and mckinley start over Jarvis Moss and Marcus Thomas. I think the second team d-line looks better than the first teams.
Tombstone RJ
06-05-2008, 11:27 AM
It's way too early to be talking about the starting rotation. I just want everyone healthy and be ready to go by the end of August.
no-pseudo-fan
06-05-2008, 11:31 AM
Mike is keeping the young guys hungry. If Engelburger starts I will lose it!!! The guy is a stop gap guy, a rotational type player, who comes in to give our starter a rest
400HZ
06-05-2008, 12:17 PM
I think it's too early to call someone a bust after only one season, but if your guy can't beat out John Engleberger for a starting spot...well....
Kaylore
06-05-2008, 12:24 PM
Jay Cutler was behind Bradley Van Pelt in June of '06. Van Pelt kept the spot all through OTA's and the first few days of camp until they made the formal changes. He is now out of football. This lineup means very little and the way we rotate guys in, it will mean even less.
Inkana7
06-05-2008, 12:26 PM
Nobody ever moves up until Training camp. Remeber when Dumervil was 3rd team last year? This is no big deal at all.
Hotrod
06-05-2008, 12:27 PM
I personally dont understand all the Engleburger hate. Is he starting material no but a solid/cheap rotation guy.
alkemical
06-05-2008, 12:31 PM
I personally dont understand all the Engleburger hate. Is he starting material no but a solid/cheap rotation guy.
Somehow, people hate him - for getting playing time. But you need guys to do the rotation work.
Gcver2ver3
06-05-2008, 12:58 PM
I personally dont understand all the Engleburger hate. Is he starting material no but a solid/cheap rotation guy.
i don't hate engleberger...i hate all the underachievers that can't seem to beat him out...
BroncosinDC
06-05-2008, 01:10 PM
I would guess the Engleburger hate comes from our terrible DL last year, of which he was a member.
I personally dont understand all the Engleburger hate. Is he starting material no but a solid/cheap rotation guy.
Thats the problem, too often we've seen him used as a starter or at least heavy part of a rotation. He should be a goal line, special teams, and backup guy only. He shouldn't ever be called on to step on the field as a 4-3 DE short of injury, probably multiple injuries.
Hotrod
06-05-2008, 01:26 PM
Thats the problem, too often we've seen him used as a starter or at least heavy part of a rotation. He should be a goal line, special teams, and backup guy only. He shouldn't ever be called on to step on the field as a 4-3 DE short of injury, probably multiple injuries.
He is actually pretty stout against the run.
Beantown Bronco
06-05-2008, 01:34 PM
I would guess the Engleburger hate comes from our terrible DL last year, of which he was a member.
but so was Dumervil.......just sayin'.
Hotrod
06-05-2008, 01:35 PM
Besides I think there is something in the CBA about having a minimum number of slow white guys on each team.
BroncosinDC
06-05-2008, 01:44 PM
but so was Dumervil.......just sayin'.
But who can hate Elvis, well the name at least.
Elvis is young, Engelberger was drafted in 2000. Dumervil had 12.5 sacks last year, meaning that at the very least on 3rd and long he has some potential. If we expect great things from Jay in 2008, we should at least give him the same amount of time before we hate him.
He is actually pretty stout against the run.
Is he better than Ekuban was when healthy? Or Courtney Brown?
Not really even close. He's a high motor guy who does occasionally make some good plays stopping the run, but he's also prone to getting completely stonewalled by any average to above average OL he comes up against.
I don't hate the guy and I completely agree that he's got a place on this team, but the fact that we've had him playing significant snaps the last couple years is a perfect example of what we're doing wrong on the DL. Mediocre journeymen are being asked to contribute far more than they can reasonably be expected to do.
I just hope Ekuban is healthy and takes his job back.
What I'm hoping for in our defensive rotation, with percentage of snaps in parenthesis:
1st and 2nd down
Dumervil/Moss (80/20), Robertson/McKinley (60/40), McKinley/Thomas (60/40), Ekuban/Crowder (70/30)
3rd and 4th down
Dumervil/Moss (90/10), Thomas/Robertson (80/20), Ekuban/Harris (80/20), Moss/Crowder (70/30)
Thats a rotational setup that I would expect good things from.
TheReverend
06-05-2008, 02:03 PM
Aside from the whole insignificance of the article, this really hits a pet peeve nerve:
"The pass-rushing Moss does come in at left defensive end, with Dumervil shifting to right end, on the Broncos' No. 1 nickel package."
How hard is it, when it's your profession to understand and communicate these things, to know that you read L to R from they way the unit is facing, not from the offenses POV!!!
broncojam
06-05-2008, 02:59 PM
Hi All. I am longtime reader of the orangemane forum but this is my first post. As far as the D-line is concerned, as long as the broncos have Dumervil set to handle 1st and 2nd down duties then they will be in big trouble. We need to find a way to have him on the field fresh for the 3rd and longs so he can go after the QB when he is fresh - not after being worn down on 1st and 2nd downs. The broncos need the 2nd year DEs Moss and Crowder to beat out Dumervil for the 1st team D.
Bob's your Information Minister
06-05-2008, 03:03 PM
They must stay patient while veterans John Engelberger, Alvin McKinley, Dewayne Robertson and Elvis Dumervil take their reps with the first team.
Wow. That's pathetic. How are Moss and Crowder not lining up with the first team? Bust city!
Tombstone RJ
06-05-2008, 03:16 PM
ehh, did someone just fart?
Rulon Velvet Jones
06-05-2008, 03:17 PM
Hey, fat kid!
Hi All. I am longtime reader of the orangemane forum but this is my first post. As far as the D-line is concerned, as long as the broncos have Dumervil set to handle 1st and 2nd down duties then they will be in big trouble. We need to find a way to have him on the field fresh for the 3rd and longs so he can go after the QB when he is fresh - not after being worn down on 1st and 2nd downs. The broncos need the 2nd year DEs Moss and Crowder to beat out Dumervil for the 1st team D.
I'd rather we see if Dumervil can develop into an every down player because if not we don't really have any reason to give him the big money deal he'll be seeking in a few years.
I don't think he'll ever be a beast against the run but he should be able to be at least average and play every down without wearing out. We need a good pass rush on first and second downs just as much as we do on third downs.
epicSocialism4tw
06-05-2008, 03:37 PM
Man I swear to God if engelberger and mckinley start over Jarvis Moss and Marcus Thomas. I think the second team d-line looks better than the first teams.
For those of you who are new to this, Shanahan always defers to the vets first. The lineup will look different in a month.
You guys missed the best part of the article...Ryan Clady is starting.
That says an awful lot about Clady.
Not to mention that he's already competing with the vets.
Those are better early returns than I would have expected from a rookie Broncos lineman.
maher_tyler
06-05-2008, 03:39 PM
I personally dont understand all the Engleburger hate. Is he starting material no but a solid/cheap rotation guy.
No one hates him, its just disgusting that he starts...like you and others say hes a rotational guy to give a starter a rest, i doubt theres another team in the league he could start for. If Crowder or Moss can't beat him out then were in trouble yet again at DE.
maher_tyler
06-05-2008, 03:45 PM
Is he better than Ekuban was when healthy? Or Courtney Brown?
Not really even close. He's a high motor guy who does occasionally make some good plays stopping the run, but he's also prone to getting completely stonewalled by any average to above average OL he comes up against.
I don't hate the guy and I completely agree that he's got a place on this team, but the fact that we've had him playing significant snaps the last couple years is a perfect example of what we're doing wrong on the DL. Mediocre journeymen are being asked to contribute far more than they can reasonably be expected to do.
I just hope Ekuban is healthy and takes his job back.
What I'm hoping for in our defensive rotation, with percentage of snaps in parenthesis:
1st and 2nd down
Dumervil/Moss (80/20), Robertson/McKinley (60/40), McKinley/Thomas (60/40), Ekuban/Crowder (70/30)
3rd and 4th down
Dumervil/Moss (90/10), Thomas/Robertson (80/20), Ekuban/Harris (80/20), Moss/Crowder (70/30)
Thats a rotational setup that I would expect good things from.
Of all the new D linemen i think Crowder will be the best...he reminds me of Pryce..good against the pass and rush..i saw more out of Crowder than either Moss or Thomas combined last year.
cmhargrove
06-05-2008, 03:52 PM
No love for Carlton Powell ???
I hope Clady is our best pick, then Royal.
However, I am really, really pulling for a darkhorse longshot in Powell. I am intrigued that he posted negative yardage in his senior year at VA Tech. I know there are good players all around on their squad, but that stat just keeps jumping out at me - net negative yardage over an entire year?
You go Carlton, this fan wants to buy your jersey someday!
Signed,
First official member of the Carlton Powell fan club.
elsid13
06-05-2008, 04:57 PM
I personally dont understand all the Engleburger hate. Is he starting material no but a solid/cheap rotation guy.
because we smarter then the coaching staff, who know what he does on the pratice field and what his assignment is on the field.;D
montrose
06-05-2008, 05:21 PM
Assuming our DE's are Dumervil, Moss, Crowder, Ekuban and Engelberger. Ekuban and Engelberger are actually best suited to be the "starters" as they are the two best DE's we have against the run. The Broncos seem fixed on having Dumervil out on 1st downs despite the fact he's probably the worst against the run of the entire group.
At DT, we figure Robertson is one starter with McKinley or Thomas the other. It remains to be seen who will win out of the rest of the group (Harris, Mallard, Peterson, Powell, etc.)
Hotrod
06-05-2008, 05:30 PM
because we smarter then the coaching staff, who know what he does on the pratice field and what his assignment is on the field.;D
LOL
No love for Carlton Powell ???
I hope Clady is our best pick, then Royal.
However, I am really, really pulling for a darkhorse longshot in Powell. I am intrigued that he posted negative yardage in his senior year at VA Tech. I know there are good players all around on their squad, but that stat just keeps jumping out at me - net negative yardage over an entire year?
You go Carlton, this fan wants to buy your jersey someday!
Signed,
First official member of the Carlton Powell fan club.
I like Carlton Powell, but if we ask him to do anything more than being a fairly infrequent backup then I don't think that is a good thing. I'd rather see him given a year to acclimate to the NFL game before we try plugging him in for significant snaps.
ohiobronco2
06-05-2008, 09:21 PM
Wow. That's pathetic. How are Moss and Crowder not lining up with the first team? Bust city!
Now Bob, you know that it is way too early to tell exactly who the Broncos will have as starters on the defensive line. It's early and as many stated before, Shanny may just be wanting to start a fire under these young guys. You should be more concerned with your D line. You folks over at Chiefs Planet talk about Glenn Dorsey as if he was the 2nd coming of Warren Sapp. He may be a great player, but we know how reliable rookies happen to be. Who else do you have that's worth a damn. Tamba Hali, he finished with less sacks than our midget DE and Doom didn't have the advantage of having a pro bowl caliber player like Jared Allen on the other side of the line. Why am I trying to convince you of anything. Bob, quickly, tell me how Brodie Croyle is a better QB than Jay Cutler again.:)