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dragondawg
04-29-2008, 09:10 PM
Is this some kind of joke? Is it just a bad dream? Is Mike Shanahan really trying to turn the Denver Broncos into the Cincinnati Bengals?

Iíve been a diehard Bronco fan as long as I can remember, and Iíve been a Mike Shanahan supporter since the day we kicked Wade ďthe bumĒ Phillips out the door. The two Super Bowl victories brought Colorado together like nothing else ever has. In fact, instead of two Super Bowl championships, I think there should have been four. We were the best team in the AFC in 1996, only to lose to the Jaguars in the biggest upset in Broncos history. In 1998, our Denver team was arguably one of the best in NFL history, and we brought the very same team back in 1999 with one rather large exceptionÖJohn Elway.

And since 1999, things seem to have gotten progressively worse. Mike Shanahan has gone from ĎThe Mastermindí to the ĎAbsent Mindí.

It is becoming more and more obvious that Gary Kubiak was the biggest reason behind the Broncos success, not Mike Shanahan. Since Kubiak left for Texas, the Broncos have taken a steep nosedive and the upstart Texans are becoming one of the leagueís best up and coming teams. In fact, I would bet you that the Texans reach the Super Bowl with Kubiak before Denver gets back there with Shanahan.

Iíve been drinking the Mike Shanahan Kool-Aid just like everyone else, but over the past three years Iíve began to have my doubts. The 2008 draft was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back for me.

As any so-called expert will tell you, a draft canít be properly evaluated until several years down the road. So letís go back to previous drafts. Your first round draft pick should be a potential cornerstone of your franchise, and at least a 6-10 year starter. Of course there are bound to be a few busts along the way, but looking back at the Broncos draft history, there are more than a few.

Can you name the first round picks Denver still has remaining on their roster since Mike Shanahan took over in 1995. Iíll help you out, there are three, and they were all picked in the last four years. They are Jay Cutler, DJ Williams, and Jarvis Moss, and if Moss doesnít come around soon, he too, may be gone.

There are names like, George Foster, Ashley Lelie, Willie Middlebrooks, and Marcus Nash. In fact if you go back as recently as 2004, the Broncos had 10 picks in that draft, DJ Williams is all that is left. In 2003 they also had 10 picks, and not a single player from that draft remains on this team.

This brings me to 2008. USA Today rated Denver dead last in this yearís draft class and itís not hard to see why. Itís not because there werenít any big names, itís because they had a lot of needs to fill and somehow failed to fill most of them.

Ryan Clady looks like he could be a great selection. Heís big, heís athletic, and he has quick feet. However, thatís the same thing they said about George Foster as well, and we all know how that turned out. Also, there is the little factor of his Wonderlic score. The NFL draft average of this intelligence test is 20. Good offensive linemen usually score somewhere around 26, Clady scored 13.

We needed an offensive lineman, so I wonít complain too much about that pick. However, after that the draft went downhill. The Broncos needed a return specialist, so to everyoneís surprise they took one in the 2nd round, way above were most teams would do so. In fact, the biggest surprise wasnít even that they took a returner..Itís that they took Eddie Royal from Virginia Tech instead of the top return specialist on the board, which would be DeSean Jackson from Cal. Jackson has had his off the field problems, but then again so have about 40 percent of this yearís class. Jackson may turn out to be the 2nd best return man in the league behind Devin Hester and make the Broncos regret their decision to pass him up.

We also need a middle linebacker. Right now the starting middle linebacker for the Broncos is a guy named Niko Koutouvides. Heís a guy we got from Seattle, where he was 5th on the depth chart at linebacker, and now heís our starter!

With a multitude of picks on day two, Denver could have traded up into the middle of the 3rd round to get Dan Conner from Penn State, a middle linebacker that some feel could have been a late 1st to early 2nd round pick. Instead we waited and went with a cornerback in the 4th round. I donít think I need to remind you that we have two high priced cornerbacks already on the roster. We did eventually take a linebacker out of Arizona, but he barely has a chance to make the team, let alone start.

Wide Receiver is another area where they dropped the ball, and not only in the draft. Brandon Marshall is the obvious number one, and I think heíll recover from his injury and be fine. However, after letting Javon Walker walk over into the Raiders locker-room, we did nothing to address the number two wide receiver roll. We signed a lot of guys, none of which should be starters in this league. Sure, Darrell Jackson has a big name, but he hasnít been a legit starter in three years. There were guys out there for the Broncos to land, they just didnít.

Mike Shanahan is currently building a 35,000 square foot goliath of a mansion in Denver, which means he doesnít think heís going anywhere, anytime soon. However, the next two years will be very telling for this franchise. The 2008 schedule is as easy as it gets in the NFL, but in 2009 the Broncos will have the toughest schedule in the league.

Itís now or never for Mike Shanahan in Denver. Itís time to prove that he is the ĎMastermindí and not the ĎAbsent Mindí he appears to be.

If 2008 and 2009 donít produce a playoff win or even a playoff appearance it will be time for us to cut our losses with the beloved ego-maniac we call coach. Otherwise that 35,000 square foot mansion will be sitting empty. Maybe we can turn it into a Denver Bronco Museum, so we can all go there and reminisce about the days when we had a winning franchise, long before it was ran into the ground.

http://www.kktv.com/blogs/talksports/18333174.html

cutthemdown
04-29-2008, 09:15 PM
I'd say the luster of the championships is long gone. There are no scapegoats left for Shanny to butcher in the offseason. He has IMO 2 season to prove he has rebuilt the team into a winner. He won't get fired after missing playoffs this yr, but 2 more times and I think he would resign.

Bronx33
04-29-2008, 09:18 PM
debbie downer is going to just looooooooove this artical.

Los Broncos
04-29-2008, 09:19 PM
Something needs to go right for this team in the next couple of seasons.

Or Mike will be gone.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-29-2008, 09:20 PM
I'd like to direct you to Bill Cowher, who got similar kind of criticism...then won a super bowl. Also, we were just in the AFC championship a couple years ago. Some poster, i forget who, mentioned how that was the quietest trip to the championship...and i agree. You'd think Shanny hasnt been to the playoffs since the championship by the way people talk.

Oh, and i really liked our draft. I dont really get how anyone can hate on it,. Regardless of that BS above, we filled needs and got quality players.

TDmvp
04-29-2008, 09:21 PM
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2765/middlefingerflamemediumre1.jpg



http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4880/awjeezre7.jpg

SonOfLe-loLang
04-29-2008, 09:23 PM
And another thing...if you want to criticize his past drafts, fine...but to criticize this years by saying things like "he took the wrong returner" is asinine. Just because some EXPERTS may have liked Jackson better (and experts were completely wrong for most of the draft) doesnt mean he'll be a better player.

TheReverend
04-29-2008, 09:24 PM
One of the worst articles I've ever read. Blame the 2008 draft, then say it takes years to evaluate so then take shots at information we've all known for quite some time, then go back to the 2008 draft shortly after you've said it's too early to evaluate...

Also, knocking a lineman for his wonderlic score is the epitome of having no experience with professional athletes.

CHANGSTER
04-29-2008, 09:27 PM
Ill informed crap.

Dagmar
04-29-2008, 09:27 PM
Wait until lex and telluride have stop pleasuring themselves to the article before they respond.

Dendave
04-29-2008, 09:29 PM
whinning only takes you so far, I love my Broncos and will support them no matter what...I'd rather be a Bronco fan than a Lion or Cardinal fan...

Bronx33
04-29-2008, 09:30 PM
Wait until lex and telluride have stop pleasuring themselves to the article before they respond.


Wolf likes to rub his biscuit too..;D

jbiel
04-29-2008, 09:30 PM
Dude, chill out! You don't even make any sense. Please explain to me how we'll have the toughest schedule in the 2009 season. Won't that mean we will have a pretty good year this year, as in winning the division.

You say we're going to suck this year but somehow still end up with a first place schedule??

Spider
04-29-2008, 09:32 PM
2008 class a bust ? .......... good grief seems to be a sports writer these days is just good spelling ....... That Idiot that wrote this garbage isnt fit enough to cover a girl scout bake sale , much less evaluate NFL talent ...

TDmvp
04-29-2008, 09:33 PM
And furthermore as a life long Broncos fan LIVING in Cincinnati , i think anyone in Cincy would trade history or franshises straight up if you would like ...


I give you these as just a few

1. The Bengals lost more games then any team ever did in one decade ...

2. Pasted on Bill Walsh while he was on the staff as head coach when he wanted the job after BUILDING the west coast O in Cincinnati ... and then lose both Superbowls to S.F. ironic ?

3. Gave the head coaching job to Dave Shula when the two last people on list for the job was Dave Shula and ...... Bill Cowher

4. EVERY team in the NFL has won at least one playoff game sence the Bengal won their last playoff game ...

5. The Cincinnati Police was looking into a local crime ring ... turned out it was just the Bengals huddle ... "their on going probs with thugs"

6. I won't list all the first round picks 1 - 10 they have had just BLOW ...

7. Chad Johnson ...



as someone who has lived in cincinnati my whole life but loves the Broncs ... i'll say it this way ... you are not anything like the bengals ... why i'm a fan of 20+ years ...

spdirty
04-29-2008, 09:35 PM
Wait until lex and telluride have stop pleasuring themselves to the article before they respond.

dont forget wolf.;)

spdirty
04-29-2008, 09:38 PM
thing about this article that gets me is that there is absolutely NO mention of letting the guy whose leg got us 4 wins last year go. For the NFL equilvalent of chump change. there is a legit criticism right there. Not the '08 draft for God's sakes.

Except for the Elam deal, I really like the moves this team has made this offseason.

cutthemdown
04-29-2008, 09:40 PM
I agree that article was pretty negative. You don't how this draft will be. Better just to say regardless of the draft Shanny has to prove the team is built to win. If he doesn't do that over next 2 seasons I think Shanny will fire himself.

spdirty
04-29-2008, 09:45 PM
I agree that article was pretty negative. You don't how this draft will be. Better just to say regardless of the draft Shanny has to prove the team is built to win. If he doesn't do that over next 2 seasons I think Shanny will fire himself.

2009, barring the damn major injuries, or some clusterf@ck that is out of Shanny's control, should be the year we make a serious run.

footstepsfrom#27
04-29-2008, 09:49 PM
Criticism of our recent drafts is entirely justified. I think the major problem has been Shanny wearing two hats as coach and essentially the GM. Let's see how the change in front office philosophy impacts their draft. One thing you can't do is claim that the current draft is a flop since we don't know anything about these guys yet.

TonyR
04-29-2008, 09:50 PM
The drafting has been an abomination and the downfall of the organization. Let's review the drafts that should be the heart of the team right now, looking at all players selected in rounds 1 through 6:

2000: Deltha O'Neal, Ian Gold, Kenoy Kennedy, Chris Cole, Jerry Johnson, Cooper Carlisle, Muneer Moore, Mike Anderson.
2001: Willie Middlebrooks, Paul Toviessi, Reggie Hayward, Ben Hamilton, Nick Harris, Kevin Kasper.
2002: Ashley Lelie, Clinton Portis, Dorsett Davis, Sam Brandon, Herb Haygood, Jeb Putzier.
2003: George Foster, Terry Pierce, Quentin Griffin, Nick Eason, Bryant McNeal, Ben Claxton, Adrian Madise, Aaron Hunt.
2004: D.J. Williams, Tatum Bell, Darius Watts, Jeremy LeSueur, Jeff Shoate, Triandos Luke, Josh Sewell.
2005: Darrent Williams, Karl Paymah, Domonique Foxworth, Maurice Clarett, Chris Myers.
2006: Jay Cutler, Tony Scheffler, Brandon Marshall, Elvis Dumervil, Domenik Hixon, Chris Kuper, Greg Eslinger.
2007: Jarvis Moss, Tim Crowder, Ryan Harris, Marcus Thomas.

Excepting 2007 because it's too early to judge, other than the 2006 draft the rest are nothing short of train wrecks. Looking back at these drafts all you can do is shake your head. The depths of futility are just beyond compare.

Maybe somebody else can compile the wasteland that is our free agent signings over this same period. If you put that next to this mess your head might explode.

In conclusion, however, you really have to give Shanny credit for somehow getting 7 wins out of this mess last season, not to mention 9 the previous season.

cmhargrove
04-29-2008, 09:52 PM
Do you really not have anything better to do?

It's hard to declare this thread a waste of cyberspace because so much trash abounds, but what are you thinking?

Why don't you wait until the season gets going before you declare all these guys busts. remember that arguably the most successful franchise of the last decade (the Pats) built their championship teams from pieces and parts that fit a scheme. It looks like we are doing the same.

Possibly the real problem is that we have been patching holes for the last decade instead of rebuilding. It has kept us competitive, but obviously fell short.

Make no mistake, we are now rebuilding (or rebuilt). You have to give that some time to work. Remember that the Giants put Coughlin on the hot seat and almost fired him before last season. If they would have listened to guys like you, they wouldn't have their pretty little trophy. Go get an aggressive college coach like Bobby Patrino (maybe not). How about an awesome offensive coordinator like Cam Cameron (maybe not). I'll stick with Shanahan.

Shall we list all the other coaches that haven't won a championship in the past decade? Are they all utter failures? Grow up.

Popps
04-29-2008, 09:57 PM
We can bicker all we want. Look at it with an objective viewpoint, and Shanahan should be on the hot seat. One playoff win in a decade? What other city would put up with that?

I've defended the guy forever, but if we don't improve in a big way this year, it's time to thank him and move on.

Popps
04-29-2008, 09:58 PM
In conclusion, however, you really have to give Shanny credit for somehow getting 7 wins out of this mess last season, not to mention 9 the previous season.

I've said this many times. He's a great game-day coach, which saves him from being a horrible decision maker with regards to the draft and free agency. (Save the first year or so he was in Denver, when he for some reason understood how to build a team.)

thumpc
04-29-2008, 10:20 PM
There's no question his coaching has saved the team from his GMing. The sign of a great coach is willingness to adapt, puts in a new gameplan in each week. I think Shanny has demonstrated a willingness to adapt as a GM also, thats why Bowlen believes in him.

AboveAverage
04-29-2008, 10:22 PM
tl;dr

Spider
04-29-2008, 10:28 PM
not to long ago , I would call just about everyone here a bunch of Clucking Hens , then I would put Shannys record up against anyone elses , and dare you bitches to find me some better , but all that would go for nothing ..... If Shanny went down and bought a brand new escolade , some of you ****s would bitch is isnt a Hummer ......
I am just wondering why all of you ****ing genius are not int he NFL at least being talent scouts ...... it just boggles the mind .....

Needa Pass Rush
04-29-2008, 10:32 PM
I've said this many times. He's a great game-day coach, which saves him from being a horrible decision maker with regards to the draft and free agency. (Save the first year or so he was in Denver, when he for some reason understood how to build a team.)

When it comes to Shanahan and draft day, I have always had the sense he is in love with the contrarian pick. Trying to relive the fortunate pick that was Terrell Davis. Defying conventional wisdom in hopes of padding the mastermind moniker. I believe that is why we took a stab at Clarrett, specifically and all the other nicked up longshots that were falling off others draft boards.

I'm overstating this a bit for illustration, but at the end of the day it all comes down to one man's supreme (over)confidence and an ego that is a tad over inflated. Yet at the end of the day, I would have him coach my team over the vast majority of the others that hold his title around the league..... maybe because of those same reasons. A classic example of a greatest strength also being the greatest weakness. Just a thought.

Rabb
04-29-2008, 10:33 PM
yes the draft clearly sucked those kids look just awful in training camp so far....oh wait, nm

Shanny needs to improve the club, no doubt about it...but let's not hand out pitchforks and torches just yet

colonelbeef
04-29-2008, 10:40 PM
Many of these negative posts reek of a spoiled fanbase.
"we had 2 losing seasons since 1995" WAAAAAH


Posted the most wins in pro football history in a three-year period (46 in 1996-98).
Won the most postseason games in history over a two-year period (seven, 1997-98).
Been undefeated and untied for three consecutive regular seasons (1996-98) at home, just the second team ever to be undefeated and untied at home in three consecutive years.
In 2004, he joined the exclusive club of head coaches to post 100 wins in his first 10 seasons with one club, finishing the campaign and decade tied for fourth on this ultra-impressive list of 12 coaches, six of whom are in the Pro Football Hall of Fame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Football_Hall_of_Fame).
Joins Vince Lombardi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Lombardi), Don Shula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Shula), Chuck Noll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Noll), Jimmy Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Johnson_%28American_football_coach%29) and Bill Belichick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Belichick) as the only six coaches to win back-to-back Super Bowls.
He is the second coach in history to win two Super Bowl titles in his first four years coaching a team (Shula did it first and Belichick did it later, winning two Super Bowls in his first four seasons in New England).
Highest winning percentage in Denver history (.646).
Shanahan is one of seven coaches in pro football history to post four wins in one postseason along with Tom Flores (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Flores), Joe Gibbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Gibbs), Brian Billick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Billick), Bill Cowher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cowher), Tony Dungy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Dungy) and Tom Coughlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Coughlin).
Only coach with seven postseason wins in a two-year period.
The all-time high of 636 points in a season came from the 1994 Super Bowl Champion San Francisco 49ers, for whom Shanahan was the offensive coordinator.
During his NFL career, Shanahan has been a part of teams that have played in 10 Conference Championship Games, in addition to his six Super Bowl appearances, five with Denver and Super Bowl XXIX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXIX) with San Francisco.But yeah. lets go out and hire Schottenheimer.

Crybaby spoiled brats, don't know a GREAT thing when it dryhumps your face

Bronco_Beerslug
04-29-2008, 10:46 PM
Crybaby spoiled brats, don't know a GREAT thing when it dryhumps your faceWho are you, his mom? And you posted some of your coaching records multiple times for what reason....effect?

You also missed the point of the thread apparently. It's not what you have done in the last century but this one.

colonelbeef
04-29-2008, 10:50 PM
Who are you, his mom? And you posted some of your coaching records multiple times for what reason....effect?

What you said makes zero sense. ...I posted some of my coaching records...?

If you are making some mouthbreather attempt at attacking my salient point, please at least speak english so I can answer.

BTW forgot to mention- He is one of the few who would have had the balls to go out and draft Jay (Franchise QB for the next 12 years) Cutler coming off of a AFCCG championship. Thank goodness for Mike Shanahan, he keeps things interesting and competitive for the Denver Broncos

Bronco_Beerslug
04-29-2008, 10:55 PM
What you said makes zero sense. ...I posted some of my coaching records...?Yeah, some of the records YOU posted, you duplicated, any reason for that?

If you are making some mouthbreather attempt at attacking my salient point, please at least speak english so I can answer. English seems to be a little beyond you at this point.

BTW forgot to mention- He is one of the few who would have had the balls to go out and draft Jay (Franchise QB for the next 12 years) Cutler coming off of a AFCCG championship. Thank goodness for Mike Shanahan, he keeps things interesting and competitive for the Denver Broncos
He is one of the many who would of (having Plummer on your team almost guarantees this).
How many playoff games has he won this century?

socalorado
04-29-2008, 11:03 PM
i really think this draft is one of those great drafts where 5 or 6 of the guys end up being starters and better yet, GOOD players!
I know,i know, i'm being a homer right?!?!?!
Ive really looked at alot of these guys since the draft to better get a understanding of these guys, and i think most of em were taken based on not only talent, but work ethic, desire and maturity.
Ive posted a bunch of info on a couple of em for you guys here recently, and i just think some of these guys are going to really impress us, and i even think you may see some of these guys challenging for starting spots!!!
i even see some of them starting and making somereal impressions on the NFL.
I think Shanny's approach with these guys because they are smart, and hungry and have a desire to make an impression is going to be a more coachable impact on success on the field in their rookie year.
Basically i think these rookies are going to take this opportunity much, much more serious because Shanny and the coaching staff are going to put alot more emphasis on them as "starters" and "players" if they really want it.
Couple that with the veterans and a serious approach to this coming training camp heading into the season, and i just see a whole different approach to this coming year.
I see Shanny took "high character" guys, and i think hes changing his approach to not only the draft, but also (hopefully) to the responsibilities of these rookies and his expectations of them.
Just a hunch, but i think were going to see some seriously different approaches to this year and the high expectations.
The "character" of these rookies should be indication enough.

Bob's your Information Minister
04-29-2008, 11:12 PM
Nothing lasts forever. You guys have needed to move on to someone else since 2005.

Call me when you get a real defensive coordinator.

Bronx33
04-29-2008, 11:14 PM
you have proved time after time after time that you don't know **** bob.

Spider
04-29-2008, 11:28 PM
Call me when you get a real defensive coordinator.

Only time we need to call you is when we have way too many donuts and our sheep are in mating season .....you ****ing crack pot

TheDave
04-29-2008, 11:34 PM
Only time we need to call you is when we have way too many donuts and our sheep are in mating season .....you ****ing crack pot

It's not often you see a donut eating / sheep ****ing crack in the same post... Well done. Ha!

socalorado
04-29-2008, 11:34 PM
Nothing lasts forever. You guys have needed to move on to someone else since 2005.

Call me when you get a real defensive coordinator.

WHo is your D-coordinator?
I mean it really hasnt mattered considering the Chefs suck balls, but since were discussing it, is it still that assclown with red and yellow color tinted eyeglasses???
WTF is that fashion statement about?!?!?!?!
Jeez, if that doesnt just reek of gutter trash, i dont know what does!

socalorado
04-29-2008, 11:35 PM
It's not often you see a donut eating / sheep ****ing crack in the same post... Well done. Ha!

Yeah, that was smooth. I'll even go so far as to say that the "POST OF THE DAY"

We are referring to Bobo.....

Gcver2ver3
04-29-2008, 11:43 PM
The Broncos needed a return specialist, so to everyoneís surprise they took one in the 2nd round, way above were most teams would do so.

Wasn't Devin Hester taken in the 2nd round?

Dukes
04-29-2008, 11:50 PM
Shanahan is one of seven coaches in pro football history to post four wins in one postseason along with Tom Flores (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Flores), Joe Gibbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Gibbs), Brian Billick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Billick), Bill Cowher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cowher), Tony Dungy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Dungy) and Tom Coughlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Coughlin).

Only coach with seven postseason wins in a two-year period.

I'm not so sure these two stats are really worth bragging about. All it means is we were a Wildcard and couldn't get a Bye in round one.

bowtown
04-29-2008, 11:59 PM
Wasn't Devin Hester taken in the 2nd round?

Yes, right before we were about to take him. I'm sure these clowns would have complained then as well.

NFLBRONCO
04-30-2008, 12:03 AM
We were going to use #37 on him but, traded it for Walker. Then at our next pick but, the Bears grabbed him.

BroncoMan4ever
04-30-2008, 12:16 AM
how is anyone going to rag on this years draft. these so called experts don't like it because Shanny went after need and not flash.

that is what a CHAMPIONSHIP team is built on a group of high character hard workers who are not widely known or even appreciated, with a few star quality guys.

this team we are seeing right now is being built to become a contender not just for 1 season but to be an elite team for multiple seasons and multiple championships.

this season denver will have a good year, probably not a championship year but a confidence building year that leads this franchise back to being respected and feared.

right now we have the talent, and will send at least 4 guys to the pro bowl and finish this season 11-5 maybe even 12-4. Denver is a contender again this year and in 2009 might be the year we have all been waiting for. This draft added with the past 2 is the foundation for a championship run.

BroncoMan4ever
04-30-2008, 12:19 AM
Yeah, that was smooth. I'll even go so far as to say that the "POST OF THE DAY"

We are referring to Bobo.....

hell that was the post on the month of April.

Northman
04-30-2008, 12:25 AM
It doesnt matter what people write about in the newspapers, internet, or media about Shanahan. At the end of the day the decision is Bowlen's and his only. And he has never come out and said that Shanahan is on the hot seat. So any comments or responses on this article or any other is irrelevant and has no bearing on his future here in Denver. So in my opinion, until Bowlen says its been enough i will continue to support Mike as the coach of the Denver Broncos. Times are tough while the team finds a new identity and begins anew so its just time to sack up and get ready for a new season.

Bronco Jamus
04-30-2008, 12:28 AM
Spoiled? I agree.

Rabb
04-30-2008, 12:31 AM
Nothing lasts forever. You guys have needed to move on to someone else since 2005.

Call me when you get a real defensive coordinator.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b178/koelemon/l_96264a4b84e39561687245873e5a7e6d.jpg

Taco John
04-30-2008, 12:35 AM
http://www.funkyfridge.com/shop/images/AB-MB-24482.jpg

Get used to this kind of arm flapping folks. We're in for at least a two year ride from what I can tell. We have a youth movement going on here, and Shanahan is going to take flack every step of the way. The good news is that he'd have never started the project if he didn't have the support of the owner. When he lifts that trophy over his head, Mike might think to utter the words "This one is for Pat!"

Lev Vyvanse
04-30-2008, 12:45 AM
I'm not so sure these two stats are really worth bragging about. All it means is we were a Wildcard and couldn't get a Bye in round one.

It's what you call the Shanahan sandwich. A wildcard lombardi trophy placed in between two first place AFC seeds.

Tombstone RJ
04-30-2008, 12:55 AM
http://www.funkyfridge.com/shop/images/AB-MB-24482.jpg

Get used to this kind of arm flapping folks. We're in for at least a two year ride from what I can tell. We have a youth movement going on here, and Shanahan is going to take flack every step of the way. The good news is that he'd have never started the project if he didn't have the support of the owner. When he lifts that trophy over his head, Mike might think to utter the words "This one is for Pat!"

I think even Pat is getting a little tired of the lack of post season success. Fact is, ownership will never tip it's cap to what it's intentions are. Even if Pat was miserable with Shanahan, we won't know about it until after the firing.

Pat is saying what he has to say. Does this mean Shanny's job is protected? No.

However, with that being said... I see one more year for Shanahan before his job is in real jeopardy. Even if the Broncos go 5-11, I think Shanny rides. However, after 2008-9, he's gone if he doesn't produce.

Northman
04-30-2008, 01:09 AM
I think even Pat is getting a little tired of the lack of post season success. Fact is, ownership will never tip it's cap to what it's intentions are. Even if Pat was miserable with Shanahan, we won't know about it until after the firing.

Pat is saying what he has to say. Does this mean Shanny's job is protected? No.



I dont know about that. It generally never takes the media long to find some sort of rumblings within a franchise between Head Coach and the Owner. Whenever there is turmoil in D.C between owner and coach you know about it in the media. Same with Oakland, Detroit, and Arizona. I think Pat is smart enough to understand what is going on here in terms of the rebuilding and the change of personel around Mike and the offloading of guys like Walker is proof of that in my opinion.

DenverBrit
04-30-2008, 01:10 AM
Thank god you started this thread.
We haven't had one of these..... 'Is it time for Shanahan to go?' threads in the last several hours.
There are people here suffering from withdrawals, but you've given them their fix.....again.
Well done, enabler. ;D


PS. Until Uncle Pat decides his several hundred million $ investment is at risk, the HC isn't changing.

Merlin
04-30-2008, 01:11 AM
I'm not so sure these two stats are really worth bragging about. All it means is we were a Wildcard and couldn't get a Bye in round one.
And that the HC was able to keep the team focused and coached them to a SB win from a fairly difficult starting point. I'll take that, thank you.

Dukes
04-30-2008, 01:15 AM
And that the HC was able to keep the team focused and coached them to a SB win from a fairly difficult starting point. I'll take that, thank you.

I'm not taking anything away from the achievment, becuase it is a great one. It's just not the road you'd prefer to go down.

Tombstone RJ
04-30-2008, 01:26 AM
I dont know about that. It generally never takes the media long to find some sort of rumblings within a franchise between Head Coach and the Owner. Whenever there is turmoil in D.C between owner and coach you know about it in the media. Same with Oakland, Detroit, and Arizona. I think Pat is smart enough to understand what is going on here in terms of the rebuilding and the change of personel around Mike and the offloading of guys like Walker is proof of that in my opinion.

Let me re-phrase my other post: good ownership never tips it's cap. You mention Washington (owner is a moron), Oakland (do I even have to go here?), Detroit (the best thing I can say is "absentee" ownership), and Arizona (the Bidwells are the crappiest owners in all of professional sports, and their crappy post season record, or lack of record, proves this) as the teams that devulge their intentions to the media. I say, look at those teams ownership to see where their real problem is to begin with.

Odysseus
04-30-2008, 01:39 AM
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2765/middlefingerflamemediumre1.jpg



http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4880/awjeezre7.jpg

QFT

Kaylore
04-30-2008, 01:45 AM
This is my favorite:

Ryan Clady looks like he could be a great selection. Heís big, heís athletic, and he has quick feet. However, thatís the same thing they said about George Foster as well, and we all know how that turned out.

It is bereft of any logic or reason. It's also horribly misleading. George Foster was considered a late second round pick because he had barely any starting experience. Clady is a three year starter who has played left and right tackle. He was widely considered the second best tackle on the board and a top five pick in a very strong class of offensive linemen. I don't get why people keep comparing him to George Foster.

SureShot
04-30-2008, 01:51 AM
This is my favorite:



It is bereft of any logic or reason. It's also horribly misleading. George Foster was considered a late second round pick because he had barely any starting experience. Clady is a three year starter who has played left and right tackle. He was widely considered the second best tackle on the board and a top five pick in a very strong class of offensive linemen. I don't get why people keep comparing him to George Foster.

Its the dreadlocks! I swear if he was white there would be no comparison.

The MVPlaya
04-30-2008, 01:53 AM
Darrell Jackson just had 10 touchdowns just 2 seasons ago, in his last season as a Seahawk...I think everyone is underestimating him. Injuries have plagued him, but he can be a LEGIT WR.

No one would have done well as a WR on that roster. Put Torry Holt, Owens, Chad Johnson, Steve Smith, and they would still all fail on that team as a WR.

Whoever wrote that article...you're a ****ing idiot. :rofl:

Clady to Foster? This is a black thing for sure. The pure fact that you compare Clady to Foster reveals your true knowledge of football: NONE.

Seriously, WTF is up with that comparison?

Kaylore
04-30-2008, 01:56 AM
Its the dreadlocks! I swear if he was white there would be no comparison.

It probably is. This reminds me of all the people that say every white receiver on the team reminds them of Ed McCaffrey.

The MVPlaya
04-30-2008, 02:00 AM
It probably is. This reminds me of all the people that say every white receiver on the team reminds them of Ed McCaffrey.

Exactly.

Bronco Billy
04-30-2008, 02:06 AM
Apocalypse Warning for the day:

131 more days of these threads 'til MNF @ Chokeland.

wabbit
04-30-2008, 02:13 AM
It should be noted that no-one I'm aware of ever claimed George Foster had quick feet.

As a matter of record, his rather leaden stance & limited experience as a starting OT were among the leading knocks against him coming out of Georgia.

Clady & Foster aren't even in the same universe, although I will always believe that the injury incident against Cincinnati significantly altered and lessened Fosters' aggressiveness & passion as a player to the degree that he could no longer perform his job.

From all I read & see, Clady is very quick & aggressive...there's just no comparison.

chaz
04-30-2008, 02:14 AM
no matter how you feel about shanahan, that is a ****TY article...contradicts himself multiple times...

DHallblows
04-30-2008, 02:20 AM
It probably is. This reminds me of all the people that say every white receiver on the team reminds them of Ed McCaffrey.

But they all dooooo!:~ohyah!:

Taco John
04-30-2008, 03:21 AM
I think even Pat is getting a little tired of the lack of post season success. Fact is, ownership will never tip it's cap to what it's intentions are.

That's not true at all. Pat has done nothing but shown Mike support. In fact, for all the wishing that goes on around here that Pat is getting tired of Mike, there isn't a shred of even anecdotal evidence that it's even close to being true.

On the other hand Pat Bowlen tipped his hand to what his intentions were before the draft last season (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/nflinsider/2007/04/broncos_extend_shanahans_contr.html), right before the rebuild started. And then what did Shanahan do? He felt secure enough in his job that he purchased a huge new house. He knew that he wasn't going anywhere for a long time.

People need to get used to the idea that Pat Bowlen is not going to fire Mike Shanahan.


"He's here and he's going to stay here. Nobody, I can tell you nobody in this building, myself included, is more concerned and more attentive to what the heck's happened here and how we get back on top than Mike Shanahan." -Pat Bowlen, March 2008


You can say what you want about Bowlen just "saying what he needs to say." You have to ignore a lot of evidence to the contrary to believe that though.

SureShot
04-30-2008, 03:25 AM
Thought of not having Mike Shanahan as this teams head coach is scary and I wish people would stop talking about it.

Taco John
04-30-2008, 03:34 AM
Thought of not having Mike Shanahan as this teams head coach is scary and I wish people would stop talking about it.


There's been talk about Shanny getting canned since Griese went bust. Then it was "Shanny's fate is tied in with Plummer."

Pat Bowlen knows that Mike Shanahan is going to have a bust enshrined in Canton someday. He expects to say some very nice things on that day in front of quite a few of us. In the mean time, who better to gear your team towards your next Superbowl than a Hall of Fame bound coach with Superbowl credentials, and a young stud to develop?

broncocalijohn
04-30-2008, 03:36 AM
Remember folks, Dragon Dawg only is the messenger not the one behind the message. He is posting a story as he has done for over a year. Wolf, you did not pick up a friend here.

Bob's your Information Minister
04-30-2008, 04:38 AM
Thought of not having Mike Shanahan as this teams head coach is scary.

What's scarier?

Winning one playoff game in the last nine years?

Or potentially having a chance to win one by getting a new head coach?

wolf754life
04-30-2008, 05:21 AM
i have no illusions about shannahan being fired, I've said many times he leaves when he decides......................that being said............

i can stand up and yell and scream and demand accountability from the Ratface.................

In two years he walks and leaves this organization in the crapper.............
but until then I'll be using the road flares and various warning devices!

great article, whoever wrote that demands results!

SlipperyPete
04-30-2008, 07:05 AM
Posted the most wins in pro football history in a three-year period (46 in 1996-98).
Won the most postseason games in history over a two-year period (seven, 1997-98).
Been undefeated and untied for three consecutive regular seasons (1996-98) at home, just the second team ever to be undefeated and untied at home in three consecutive years.

When the top 3 things on your list happened a decade ago, it might be time to rethink your position.

Bronco_Beerslug
04-30-2008, 07:08 AM
I don't get why people keep comparing him to George Foster.Yeah, Clady with a 13 on the Wonderlic isn't even close to Foster is he and I don't think our second round 180lb receiver could do more reps than Foster?

TheReverend
04-30-2008, 07:12 AM
It probably is. This reminds me of all the people that say every white receiver on the team reminds them of Ed McCaffrey.

My favorite is that every white defender is a "liability in coverage".

TheReverend
04-30-2008, 07:16 AM
Yeah, Clady with a 13 on the Wonderlic isn't even close to Foster is he and I don't think our second round 180lb receiver could do more reps than Foster?

My only regret about Clady's wonderlic score is it's too high. Give me some interior players with passable intelligence, and then some guys on the outside that have that "one track mind" that comes with mental retardation. Smart people second guess. Idiots have the luxury of one thought in their head. Let's hope it's his assignment and not a shiny camera on the sidelines. :wiggle:

SlipperyPete
04-30-2008, 07:18 AM
Pat Bowlen knows that Mike Shanahan is going to have a bust enshrined in Canton someday.
Maybe if Shanahan comes out today and announces his retirement. But it ain't happening after 2-3 upcoming years of 6 win seasons. You can see the skepticism already creeping into the very writers who elect guys to the HOF... there's never been a higher concentration of "what has Shanny done on his own?" sentiment. And I see no signs of it going away soon.

BleedingOrange
04-30-2008, 07:19 AM
My only regret about Clady's wonderlic score is it's too high. Give me some interior players with passable intelligence, and then some guys on the outside that have that "one track mind" that comes with mental retardation. Smart people second guess. Idiots have the luxury of one thought in their head. Let's hope it's his assignment and not a shiny camera on the sidelines. :wiggle:

I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that. LOL

Atlas
04-30-2008, 08:51 AM
Why does everyone make a big deal about his mansion? First of all the reason he bought the mansion is because someone offered him a ridiculous price on his old house. So he used that money to build his mansion if he wouldn't have then he would have gotten killed on the tax of the sale of his first home. Big ****ing deal, get over it.

TheReverend
04-30-2008, 08:55 AM
Why does everyone make a big deal about his mansion? First of all the reason he bought the mansion is because someone offered him a ridiculous price on his old house. So he used that money to build his mansion if he wouldn't have then he would have gotten killed on the tax of the sale of his first home. Big ****ing deal, get over it.

It's pretty simple really. People who are massively insecure about their own successes and failures have a burning resentment for someone who has been extremely successful. Mike's been successful. He can choose to do whatever he wants with his money...

Tombstone RJ
04-30-2008, 09:28 AM
That's not true at all. Pat has done nothing but shown Mike support. In fact, for all the wishing that goes on around here that Pat is getting tired of Mike, there isn't a shred of even anecdotal evidence that it's even close to being true.

On the other hand Pat Bowlen tipped his hand to what his intentions were before the draft last season (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/nflinsider/2007/04/broncos_extend_shanahans_contr.html), right before the rebuild started. And then what did Shanahan do? He felt secure enough in his job that he purchased a huge new house. He knew that he wasn't going anywhere for a long time.

People need to get used to the idea that Pat Bowlen is not going to fire Mike Shanahan.


"He's here and he's going to stay here. Nobody, I can tell you nobody in this building, myself included, is more concerned and more attentive to what the heck's happened here and how we get back on top than Mike Shanahan." -Pat Bowlen, March 2008


You can say what you want about Bowlen just "saying what he needs to say." You have to ignore a lot of evidence to the contrary to believe that though.

I understand what you are saying. You are saying Bowlen has no intention of firing Shanahan any time soon. I agree. However, my point is that this is a league of "what have you done for me lately" aka Not For Long.

Shanny has had great success in the past, but that success is a decade old. His teams need to stop being mediocre, and start producing playoff victories. Bowlen can give Shanny all the contract extensions he wants, but that doesn't prove anything. Bowlen can fire Shanahan, and pay out that contract and be done with Shanny on a moments notice. Coaches get contract extensions all the time and then either get canned or quit, or go somewhere else.

And as for Shanny's house, all that proves is that Shanahan has alot of money and he wants to spend it on something. That does not necessarily mean he has all the time in the world to run the Broncos football operations.

And let me just say this: I too love Shanahan and his impact on this franchise. He's a fantastic coach and a great leader. Where he has had trouble is in drafting and FA acquisitions. I WANT SHANAHAN TO SUCCEED TOO. I want the Broncos to win!

cmhargrove
04-30-2008, 09:34 AM
OK, OK, just devil's advocate here because I think the "fire Shanahan" crowd is hiding behind the "what if."

So, you football braniacs - who would you hire to replace Shanahan? Don't give me this crap about we'll just find someone better because it isn't that easy.

Man up, who do you think will turn us into a multi-championship winning franchise? You must obviously have someone in mind if you are so confident in canning one of the "winningest" coaches in league history.

Broncomutt
04-30-2008, 09:40 AM
As I predicted, more and more people are noticing there's something wrong with the Kool-Aid.

The "Shanny Should Go" bandwagon continue to gather more people who are realizing Mike is not the same coach he was 10 years ago. Just a shame it will take a few more crappy seasons for enough people to realize it.

Peoples Champ
04-30-2008, 09:40 AM
no

Needa Pass Rush
04-30-2008, 09:44 AM
It's pretty simple really. People who are massively insecure about their own successes and failures have a burning resentment for someone who has been extremely successful. Mike's been successful. He can choose to do whatever he wants with his money...

QFT. The world spins with envy. Part of the reason our grand country always has a target painted on it's back.

Tombstone RJ
04-30-2008, 09:45 AM
OK, OK, just devil's advocate here because I think the "fire Shanahan" crowd is hiding behind the "what if."

So, you football braniacs - who would you hire to replace Shanahan? Don't give me this crap about we'll just find someone better because it isn't that easy.

Man up, who do you think will turn us into a multi-championship winning franchise? You must obviously have someone in mind if you are so confident in canning one of the "winningest" coaches in league history.

If the Broncos don't start producing playoff victories by the end of 2009 season, and I was Bowlen, I'd offer Shanahan the option of continuing as the HC, but that a true GM is going to be hired to help with bringing talent in. Furthermore, that GM will have final say on all coaches who are hired.

If Shanahan says no, then I go to plan B which is to thank him very much for his long and tireless service to the Broncos, and then start looking for a GM who can take over football operations and rebuild the franchise.

And let me repeat, I'm a Shanahan supporter, I want him to succeed too. But these rather average teams that Shanahan has put together the last 10 years or so is getting old.

Peoples Champ
04-30-2008, 09:45 AM
As I predicted, more and more people are noticing there's something wrong with the Kool-Aid.

The "Shanny Should Go" bandwagon continue to gather more people who are realizing Mike is not the same coach he was 10 years ago. Just a shame it will take a few more crappy seasons for enough people to realize it.



At least he has had us in Playoffs or Playoff contention in just about every year post Superbowls (2 losing seasons).

If you put that in perspective in all 32 teams, not a lot of teams have had that consistancy. Maybe 10. Even teams like the Panthers, Rams, Buccs, Titans, and Raiders that have been in the super bowl in the last ten years, have not had that kind of consistancy.

Not to mention the teams that continue to stink and stay at the bottom. I know we demand a lot from the Broncos compared to other teams, but come on, its better then being an Arizona Cardinal Fan or Cleveland Brown or Miami Dolphin.

I am Happy with our consistancy of playoff contention. (as long as it doesnt continue to spiral down)

Bronco Jamus
04-30-2008, 09:48 AM
As I predicted, more and more people are noticing there's something wrong with the Kool-Aid.

The "Shanny Should Go" bandwagon continue to gather more people who are realizing Mike is not the same coach he was 10 years ago. Just a shame it will take a few more crappy seasons for enough people to realize it.

I too have predicted that one day Mike Shanahan will not be the coach here.

kmonty
04-30-2008, 10:06 AM
I understand what you are saying. You are saying Bowlen has no intention of firing Shanahan any time soon. I agree. However, my point is that this is a league of "what have you done for me lately" aka Not For Long.

...

And let me just say this: I too love Shanahan and his impact on this franchise. He's a fantastic coach and a great leader. Where he has had trouble is in drafting and FA acquisitions. I WANT SHANAHAN TO SUCCEED TOO. I want the Broncos to win!

What has Shanahan done lately... hmm... let's take a look. 16-16 the past two seasons. Yup, pretty horrible. 13-3 before that and an AFCCG berth. Yeah, let's fire the guy.

It's really unbelievable. I can't really say anything else.

bronco_diesel
04-30-2008, 10:24 AM
Is this some kind of joke? Is it just a bad dream? Is Mike Shanahan really trying to turn the Denver Broncos into the Cincinnati Bengals?

Iíve been a diehard Bronco fan as long as I can remember, and Iíve been a Mike Shanahan supporter since the day we kicked Wade ďthe bumĒ Phillips out the door. The two Super Bowl victories brought Colorado together like nothing else ever has. In fact, instead of two Super Bowl championships, I think there should have been four. We were the best team in the AFC in 1996, only to lose to the Jaguars in the biggest upset in Broncos history. In 1998, our Denver team was arguably one of the best in NFL history, and we brought the very same team back in 1999 with one rather large exceptionÖJohn Elway.

i would agree, denver had the best team for the better part of 4 years. the jax loss did indeed hurt...but in the end i think it helped pave the way for the 2 rings. i think this is a testament to how freakin hard it is to win a ring. look at this year, the pats were an undefeated team and still lost.


And since 1999, things seem to have gotten progressively worse. Mike Shanahan has gone from ĎThe Mastermindí to the ĎAbsent Mindí.

It is becoming more and more obvious that Gary Kubiak was the biggest reason behind the Broncos success, not Mike Shanahan. Since Kubiak left for Texas, the Broncos have taken a steep nosedive and the upstart Texans are becoming one of the leagueís best up and coming teams. In fact, I would bet you that the Texans reach the Super Bowl with Kubiak before Denver gets back there with Shanahan.

the irony here is not too long ago, people were calling for kubiak's head....now suddenly he's the reason denver was so great. come on now!


Iíve been drinking the Mike Shanahan Kool-Aid just like everyone else, but over the past three years Iíve began to have my doubts. The 2008 draft was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back for me.

As any so-called expert will tell you, a draft canít be properly evaluated until several years down the road. So letís go back to previous drafts. Your first round draft pick should be a potential cornerstone of your franchise, and at least a 6-10 year starter. Of course there are bound to be a few busts along the way, but looking back at the Broncos draft history, there are more than a few.

so the 2008 draft, that cannot yet be graded, is the straw that broke your back because it has been graded dead last? that's classic.
do you really trust the guys who work for the media - who who are more concerned over being heard and making headlines over the guys that actually do the scouting for a living? honestly, if the guys in the media were so good...why aren't nfl teams lining up for their services?

Can you name the first round picks Denver still has remaining on their roster since Mike Shanahan took over in 1995. Iíll help you out, there are three, and they were all picked in the last four years. They are Jay Cutler, DJ Williams, and Jarvis Moss, and if Moss doesnít come around soon, he too, may be gone.

There are names like, George Foster, Ashley Lelie, Willie Middlebrooks, and Marcus Nash. In fact if you go back as recently as 2004, the Broncos had 10 picks in that draft, DJ Williams is all that is left. In 2003 they also had 10 picks, and not a single player from that draft remains on this team.

lets be a bit more fair here. 1995 is a football career away and in some cases, 2 football lifes. yeah, there are misses, but there are also some pretty solid picks by shanny - davis, al wilson, pryce, dan neil, mobley, anderson, portis etc. just to name a few. not to mention, how many other teams miss on their picks? it's not like shanny is the only guy that misses on guys, every team has busts and bad picks, reaches and finds gems. it's the draft. i personally wish he were a bit better at it, and i also believe we are starting to see that!


This brings me to 2008. USA Today rated Denver dead last in this yearís draft class and itís not hard to see why. Itís not because there werenít any big names, itís because they had a lot of needs to fill and somehow failed to fill most of them.

are you serioius? look at the holes this team had last year at the end of the season and take a holistic look (not just the draft) and see what dever has done to address. i am actually somewhat amazed at what they have been able to do - i did not think it would be possible to address as many positions as they have. we'll see how it works out, but this team is already better than it was last year.

Ryan Clady looks like he could be a great selection. Heís big, heís athletic, and he has quick feet. However, thatís the same thing they said about George Foster as well, and we all know how that turned out. Also, there is the little factor of his Wonderlic score. The NFL draft average of this intelligence test is 20. Good offensive linemen usually score somewhere around 26, Clady scored 13.

as others pointed out, i don't think anyone said foster was quick on his feet. he was a beast of a man..that's true. if clady were a qb and scored a 13...i'd have some concern. that said, i think many people place way too much emphasis on the wonderlic score.

We needed an offensive lineman, so I wonít complain too much about that pick. However, after that the draft went downhill. The Broncos needed a return specialist, so to everyoneís surprise they took one in the 2nd round, way above were most teams would do so. In fact, the biggest surprise wasnít even that they took a returner..Itís that they took Eddie Royal from Virginia Tech instead of the top return specialist on the board, which would be DeSean Jackson from Cal. Jackson has had his off the field problems, but then again so have about 40 percent of this yearís class. Jackson may turn out to be the 2nd best return man in the league behind Devin Hester and make the Broncos regret their decision to pass him up.


you complain that shanny is turning the broncos into the bengals, and then are critical of him taking the quality character guy over the guy who has a questionable character? do you see the irony here? every player taken in this years draft by denver is considered a top quality character guy. a far cry from your opening salutations regarding the bengals.

this is also a bit short-sited. do some homework on royal. i'll admit, when i first heard the pick, my immediate reaction was head scratching thinking this was a special teams pick. after learning more about royal, this is a great pickup - he is speedy and will help spread the field for marshall etc.

We also need a middle linebacker. Right now the starting middle linebacker for the Broncos is a guy named Niko Koutouvides. Heís a guy we got from Seattle, where he was 5th on the depth chart at linebacker, and now heís our starter!

again, do your homework. everything that i have read about niko is the guy is a fine football player. he was simply too good for seattle to keep under the radar and stashed on the roster. you cannot fault the guy for playing behind probably the best LB in the league.

niko is a special teams stud, and its' reported he has great instincts for the game. he's a hard hitter, great tackler, smart player. i do think we will be very satisfied with his play - he will surprise some folks!

With a multitude of picks on day two, Denver could have traded up into the middle of the 3rd round to get Dan Conner from Penn State, a middle linebacker that some feel could have been a late 1st to early 2nd round pick. Instead we waited and went with a cornerback in the 4th round. I donít think I need to remind you that we have two high priced cornerbacks already on the roster. We did eventually take a linebacker out of Arizona, but he barely has a chance to make the team, let alone start.

cb is a position that we needed depth. it's all but a done deal that foxworth is gone next year...we needed depth for the nickle package. this is a good pickup...and also adds more depth to special teams.


Wide Receiver is another area where they dropped the ball, and not only in the draft. Brandon Marshall is the obvious number one, and I think heíll recover from his injury and be fine. However, after letting Javon Walker walk over into the Raiders locker-room, we did nothing to address the number two wide receiver roll. We signed a lot of guys, none of which should be starters in this league. Sure, Darrell Jackson has a big name, but he hasnít been a legit starter in three years. There were guys out there for the Broncos to land, they just didnít.

wow, where to start. first, lets not be in denial. javon wanted to leave, and it was apparent that he wasn't buying into the system. if you put comments together from many across the organization, along with javon's history, it's pretty clear the guy was 1) a me first guy 2) struggeling with the baggage from the darrent williams ordeal. 3) possibly more injured than thought. it is best for all parties to let the guy go, rather than keep him around and possibly negatively impact the team. great talent yes, but you need much much more than talent.

next the broncos have done a great deal to address the #2. you don't need to be sexy here, just solid. colbert is a great pickup - he's fast, a great blocker and a heady player. hasn't had a great career yet...but neither did eddie mac when he came in. you already mention d jackson - and we should also consider who was throwing him the ball last year? i think cutler is a serious upgrade of a qb for him. he could excel in denver's system. sammie parker is another pickup i like - he's not going to be a 1000 yrd reciever, but he adds depth - and as we have all seen, he can catch. last, royal is a great compliment to brandon marshall. he can stretch the feild, is capable of picking up big yards after the catch. he and marshall on the feild together could really cause some matchup problems.

Mike Shanahan is currently building a 35,000 square foot goliath of a mansion in Denver, which means he doesnít think heís going anywhere, anytime soon. However, the next two years will be very telling for this franchise. The 2008 schedule is as easy as it gets in the NFL, but in 2009 the Broncos will have the toughest schedule in the league.

i fail to see how shanny's house has any relevance to the topic of football. your post might have been able to take a bit more seriously without a crediblity hit by you mentioning his mansion.

Itís now or never for Mike Shanahan in Denver. Itís time to prove that he is the ĎMastermindí and not the ĎAbsent Mindí he appears to be.

If 2008 and 2009 donít produce a playoff win or even a playoff appearance it will be time for us to cut our losses with the beloved ego-maniac we call coach. Otherwise that 35,000 square foot mansion will be sitting empty. Maybe we can turn it into a Denver Bronco Museum, so we can all go there and reminisce about the days when we had a winning franchise, long before it was ran into the ground.

http://www.kktv.com/blogs/talksports/18333174.html


i really don't think shanny is an ego-maniac. he's a leader who takes his role very serioiusly. please read this write-up i put together about this very topic. i fail to see where shanny is an ego maniac...he actually has the traits which are quite opposite of that. http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1916346#post1916346

Tombstone RJ
04-30-2008, 10:24 AM
What has Shanahan done lately... hmm... let's take a look. 16-16 the past two seasons. Yup, pretty horrible. 13-3 before that and an AFCCG berth. Yeah, let's fire the guy.

It's really unbelievable. I can't really say anything else.

Thanks for proving my point. 16-16 the last two seasons is called mediocrity, which breeds apathy, which is never good for a professional sports team. I see people here complaining about the lack of good posters and how the old guard has gone away. Some say it's because of the moderators, I tend to think its because of APATHY FOR THE TEAM.

As for the 13-3 season, ask yourself why Shanahan went out and drafted a QB immediately after that 13-3 season. Was it because he was happy with the team? Or, was it because he knew the team was not a true SB contendar?

When you can the QB who got you to 13-3 the year before, then can the DC the next year, then can the another DC and a GM the next year, you have to admit that the Broncos are in a state of flux. Shanahan has to produce a SB contendar in the next two seasons. I want him to do it too! However, if he can't, then, perhaps, change is necessary.

lex
04-30-2008, 11:17 AM
Getting rid of Shanahan requires a lot of thought. Theres not a better X and O guy in the league and that includes Belichick. The problem as many have pointed out is that we've been bereft of talent. As much as I dislike the approach to running backs that Shanahan takes, its a decision that must be very carefully considered. I will say one thing though: Shanahan in leaving the team so bereft of talent and also because of running a ZBS, has done an effective job in ensuring job security. If we wanted to change coaches, we'd have to be tethered to someone committed to a similar scheme unless we were willing to build it back up from the ground floor. As much as his arrogance bothers me, he's the best X and O guy in the league and thats really hard to replace. My fear would be that he would go to another team that has a more conventional GM and that team would become unstoppable. I have a lot more faith in Goodman than Sundquist, who I regard of a bigger smug prick than Shanahan...but at least Shanahan can back it up in some ways.

Hulamau
04-30-2008, 11:25 AM
Is this some kind of joke? Is it just a bad dream? Is Mike Shanahan really trying to turn the Denver Broncos into the Cincinnati Bengals?


This brings me to 2008. USA Today rated Denver dead last in this yearís draft class and itís not hard to see why. Itís not because there werenít any big names, itís because they had a lot of needs to fill and somehow failed to fill most of them.

Itís that they took Eddie Royal from Virginia Tech instead of the top return specialist on the board, which would be DeSean Jackson from Cal. Jackson has had his off the field problems, but then again so have about 40 percent of this yearís class. Jackson may turn out to be the 2nd best return man in the league behind Devin Hester and make the Broncos regret their decision to pass him up.


http://www.kktv.com/blogs/talksports/18333174.html

What a crock of Horse ****! Eddie Royal playing at Cal would make everyone forget about Desean JAckson. More to the point he's got much more of what it take s for a long NFL career. JAckson is a grat player but lets see how long he lasts at 168 pounds when he's wet!

This was a solid draft from top to bottom. Some question marks about injries in the lower rounds butthat is true for most everyone who took a potential real player in later round .The USA article is just pure class A Bull **** ...

Tombstone RJ
04-30-2008, 11:26 AM
Getting rid of Shanahan requires a lot of thought. Theres not a better X and O guy in the league and that includes Belichick. The problem as many have pointed out is that we've been bereft of talent. As much as I dislike the approach to running backs that Shanahan takes, its a decision that must be very carefully considered. I will say one thing though: Shanahan in leaving the team so bereft of talent and also because of running a ZBS, has done an effective job in ensuring job security. If we wanted to change coaches, we'd have to be tethered to someone committed to a similar scheme unless we were willing to build it back up from the ground floor. As much as his arrogance bothers me, he's the best X and O guy in the league and thats really hard to replace. My fear would be that he would go to another team that has a more conventional GM and that team would become unstoppable. I have a lot more faith in Goodman than Sundquist, who I regard of a bigger smug prick than Shanahan...but at least Shanahan can back it up in some ways.

I absolutely agree. I'm hoping, with much enthusiasm, that Shanahan and Goodman have made the right moves and that it turns this team back into a contendar.

In alot of ways, it's pretty amazing what Shanny has done with what little talent he's had. To me, that says he is a great X's and O's guy. The flip side of that is, why has he made such bad overall decisions in bringing talent in?

Perhaps the bad element was Sundquist. But, we will never know how that dynamic worked (between Shanny and Sundquist). It's easy to blame the fall guy for the team's lack of talent, and I very much want to support Shanny and his new direction, but ultimately, I will now grade him on his post-season success.

stugotsII
04-30-2008, 11:34 AM
I'm a Shanny fan but lets face facts here.

The guy made his name riding Elways coat tails. Since Elway left, this guy hasn't done much.

This way he handles running backs is terrible. I'd love for him to stop trying to prove how smart he is by drafting a running back in the later rounds and then making him a starter just so he can try to rush for 1000 yards.

lex
04-30-2008, 11:40 AM
I'm a Shanny fan but lets face facts here.

The guy made his name riding Elways coat tails. Since Elway left, this guy hasn't done much.

This way he handles running backs is terrible. I'd love for him to stop trying to prove how smart he is by drafting a running back in the later rounds and then making him a starter just so he can try to rush for 1000 yards.

:thumbsup: :notworthy

Broncomutt
04-30-2008, 11:53 AM
I'm a Shanny fan but lets face facts here.

The guy made his name riding Elways coat tails. Since Elway left, this guy hasn't done much.

Elway and Young. Unless he has a 1st ballot hall of famer at QB, he's good enough to occasionally earn a playoff berth, where we get immediately exposed as a fraud and quickly dispatched. And Shanny had nothing to do with drafting Elway or acquiring Young.

OABB
04-30-2008, 11:57 AM
I'm a Shanny fan but lets face facts here.

The guy made his name riding Elways coat tails. Since Elway left, this guy hasn't done much.

This way he handles running backs is terrible. I'd love for him to stop trying to prove how smart he is by drafting a running back in the later rounds and then making him a starter just so he can try to rush for 1000 yards.

seriously. I can't believe the guy doesn't even care about winning football games. He just has a hard-on for looking smart and that's why he has been coaching in this league for 20 plus years and has three superbowl rings.

I mean, his ego is so large than he used a 6th round pick to grab that douche Terrell davis. All davis did was win mvp, superbowl mvp, rush for 2k and than break his leg and tear his acl.

I can't believe shannahan didn't just keep td on the team and run him despite him being unable to. It is just like mikey mansion to do this sort of thing to appease his ego. like when He drafted cp in the SECOND round. why not use your first overall pick for that guy. but no, he waited untill the second to draft him, and all he got was two 1500 yard seasons and champ bailey here.

come on mike mansion. give it a rest. trade for darren mcfadden already

Northman
04-30-2008, 11:59 AM
seriously. I can't believe the guy doesn't even care about winning football games. He just has a hard-on for looking smart and that's why he has been coaching in this league for 20 plus years and has three superbowl rings.

I mean, his ego is so large than he used a 6th round pick to grab that douche Terrell davis. All davis did was win mvp, superbowl mvp, rush for 2k and than break his leg and tear his acl.

I can't believe shannahan didn't just keep td on the team and run him despite him being unable to. It is just like mikey mansion to do this sort of thing to appease his ego. like when He drafted cp in the SECOND round. why not use your first overall pick for that guy. but no, he waited untill the second to draft him, and all he got was two 1500 yard seasons and champ bailey here.

come on mike mansion. give it a rest. trade for darren mcfadden already


:rofl:

BMF Bronco
04-30-2008, 11:59 AM
Something needs to go right for this team in the next couple of seasons.

Or Mike will be gone.

Considering Shanahan is the VP of football operations, the only way he is going anywhere is if he retires. He and bowlen are butt buddies and they will not part ways.

OABB
04-30-2008, 12:01 PM
Elway and Young. Unless he has a 1st ballot hall of famer at QB, he's good enough to occasionally earn a playoff berth, where we get immediately exposed as a fraud and quickly dispatched. And Shanny had nothing to do with drafting Elway or acquiring Young.

remember when chuck knoll couldn't win with the steelers in the 80's. ever since he lost the steel curtain he just wasn't the same coach.

phil jackson couldn't even get the bulls to the finals once mj retired.

all these guys just suck!

Northman
04-30-2008, 12:03 PM
remember when chuck knoll couldn't win with the steelers in the 80's. ever since he lost the steel curtain he just wasn't the same coach.

phil jackson couldn't even get the bulls to the finals once mj retired.

all these guys just suck!


Well, dont forget Bill Walsh. He rode the coattail of Montana to 3 rings. What a bum! :rofl:

Spider
04-30-2008, 12:04 PM
Well, dont forget Bill Walsh. He rode the coattail of Montana to 3 rings. What a bum! :rofl:

LOL

colonelbeef
04-30-2008, 12:11 PM
Thought of not having Mike Shanahan as this teams head coach is scary and I wish people would stop talking about it.

Precisely. Beerslug and the rest of the morons clamoring for his replacement haven't an idea as to how much of an asset Mike Shanahan is to the Denver Broncos organization. The only person I would have considered equal to him in that regard is Bill Belichick, and he is in the middle of a cheating scandal which has tarnished every single one of his accomplishments. Beerslug and his compatriots have no ability to view the big picture; instead they focus on ONE single losing season (7-9). A season in which the team lost not one, but two all pro stalwarts, leaders on both sides of the ball to injury- Al Wilson and Tom Nalen. A season which began with the lingering effects of a young star in the making being shot to death in front of his teammate. A season in which leadership duties fell to a QB with 5 games experience under his belt.

Thank goodness for Mike Shanahan, thank goodness he is running the Broncos - hopefully he is here for the rest of his career. Thank goodness Pat Bowlen has the foresight so many of his detractors lack.

Bronco Jamus
04-30-2008, 12:16 PM
I'm a Shanny fan but lets face facts here.

The guy made his name riding Elways coat tails. Since Elway left, this guy hasn't done much. .


Not true. You have to be considerate of two facts. One he won a Super Bowl with Steve Young and was already established before returning to the Broncos. Second, Shanahan was always a coach on the staff when Elway went to a Super Bowl.

QUOTE=stugotsII;1964261]This way he handles running backs is terrible. I'd love for him to stop trying to prove how smart he is by drafting a running back in the later rounds and then making him a starter just so he can try to rush for 1000 yards.[/QUOTE]

The way he handles running backs is smart. The average RB career is 4-5 seasons. Dumping high draft slots and money in a position that is a strength would be foolish. It's not about the running back and it's more about the line anyway.

Peoples Champ
04-30-2008, 12:20 PM
remember when chuck knoll couldn't win with the steelers in the 80's. ever since he lost the steel curtain he just wasn't the same coach.

phil jackson couldn't even get the bulls to the finals once mj retired.

all these guys just suck!



So all coaches that have great players on their team sucK?

colonelbeef
04-30-2008, 12:20 PM
Another thing.

You retards saying he hasn't "Done anything in a decade" COMPLETELY gloss over the fact that he was in the AFC Championship game 2 seasons ago. TWO SEASONS AGO. With Jake Plummer, who had no business being there.

So Shanahan has to win the superbowl with Jake Plummer to make you all believers?

He is building a beast. All of you naysayers had better have the balls to come on here and admit you are wrong when this team is dropping 30 on sundays with ease, and running the ball at will.

Cutler, Sheff, Marshall, and a line= 10/11 wins once tuned. And guess what? Mike Shanahan drafted all of them- in the SAME FREAKIN DRAFT! 2006 will go down as the best draft in team history, and one of the best single drafts of all time.

Northman
04-30-2008, 12:21 PM
So all coaches that have great players on their team sucK?

He was being sarcastic.

Tombstone RJ
04-30-2008, 12:25 PM
Another thing.

You retards saying he hasn't "Done anything in a decade" COMPLETELY gloss over the fact that he was in the AFC Championship game 2 seasons ago. TWO SEASONS AGO. With Jake Plummer, who had no business being there.

So Shanahan has to win the superbowl with Jake Plummer to make you all believers?

He is building a beast. All of you naysayers had better have the balls to come on here and admit you are wrong when this team is dropping 30 on sundays with ease, and running the ball at will.

Cutler, Sheff, Marshall, and a line= 10/11 wins once tuned. And guess what? Mike Shanahan drafted all of them- in the SAME FREAKIN DRAFT! 2006 will go down as the best draft in team history, and one of the best single drafts of all time.


I truly hope your right.

stugotsII
04-30-2008, 12:30 PM
seriously. I can't believe the guy doesn't even care about winning football games. He just has a hard-on for looking smart and that's why he has been coaching in this league for 20 plus years and has three superbowl rings.

I mean, his ego is so large than he used a 6th round pick to grab that douche Terrell davis. All davis did was win mvp, superbowl mvp, rush for 2k and than break his leg and tear his acl.

I can't believe shannahan didn't just keep td on the team and run him despite him being unable to. It is just like mikey mansion to do this sort of thing to appease his ego. like when He drafted cp in the SECOND round. why not use your first overall pick for that guy. but no, he waited untill the second to draft him, and all he got was two 1500 yard seasons and champ bailey here.

come on mike mansion. give it a rest. trade for darren mcfadden already

Ha ha ha Captain Sarcasm....

He was 2 Super Bowl trophyies as a head coach and none without Elway or Davis.

All I'm saying is that without two hall of famers, the guy is pretty average.

Getting TD in the sixth round was great and all, but it seems like Shanny tries to prove on a yearly basis that he didn't just get lucky with Davis and that he has a skill for picking late round RB's.

You can't argue with the results he has gotten since 1998. They haven't been that good. He also gets blown out on a yearly basis by the Colts and is starting to get crushed by the Chargers twice a year.

They just seem noncompetitive against teams that are playoff contenders.

colonelbeef
04-30-2008, 12:35 PM
I truly hope your right.

I understand the skepticism to a degree.

But I implore anybody looking at this organization in a negative light to take a step back and look the the roster as a whole. The pieces are in place- and keep in mind how difficult it is to rebuild from the ground up on the fly, all while "suffering" through an AFC champ game, some playoff losses to Indy on the RCA carpet vs. the best QB in a generation, and a single 7-9 season after losing two of the most important players on the team, not to mention Darrent Williams' murder...

Shanahan could have gone the Bill Parcells route, signed a vet QB to run the team to consistent 10 or 11 win seasons, even kept Plummer in place.. but instead he had the foresight, willingness to take a risk- and the security, thanks to the spectacular owner who is Pat Bowlen- to instead go for the gold and try to build a dynasty. This isn't me being optimistic. This is how it is. To vilify Bowlen and Shanahan for having guts and foresight is ludicrous. Again, take a look around the league to see what true garbage and suffering takes place on a yearly basis. They aren't shooting for playoff appearances- they are shooting for a team which year in and year out can compete for a championship. This is a rare thing which needs to be appreciated.

End rant.

stugotsII
04-30-2008, 12:36 PM
Not true. You have to be considerate of two facts. One he won a Super Bowl with Steve Young and was already established before returning to the Broncos. Second, Shanahan was always a coach on the staff when Elway went to a Super Bowl.

QUOTE=stugotsII;1964261]This way he handles running backs is terrible. I'd love for him to stop trying to prove how smart he is by drafting a running back in the later rounds and then making him a starter just so he can try to rush for 1000 yards.

The way he handles running backs is smart. The average RB career is 4-5 seasons. Dumping high draft slots and money in a position that is a strength would be foolish. It's not about the running back and it's more about the line anyway.[/QUOTE]


Shannahan was not the head coach when the 49ers won their Super Bowl.

The Bronco running game has been going down hill for years now. You can't just continue to plug in undrafted rookies and late round picks and think the running game is just fine. I know they brought in Henry, but I think everyone knows that was a mistake based on his off the field issues.

I'm willing to give him a couple more years with Cutler, but that's it.

Beej
04-30-2008, 12:37 PM
There are names like, George Foster, Ashley Lelie, Willie Middlebrooks, and Marcus Nash. In fact if you go back as recently as 2004, the Broncos had 10 picks in that draft, DJ Williams is all that is left. In 2003 they also had 10 picks, and not a single player from that draft remains on this team.


I get so tired of these writers implying that since the guys we drafted aren't on the team, that those picks were just a total waste.

Shanny took Portis (a 2nd rounder) and got Champ and a pick that became Tatum Bell, then took Foster (a 1st rounder) and Bell and got Dre Bly. So those picks were not wasted at all.

Popps
04-30-2008, 12:38 PM
Another thing.

You retards saying




Wow, 96 posts and you're calling people "retards," huh? Off to a good start.

[QUOTE=colonelbeef;1964321]COMPLETELY gloss over the fact that he was in the AFC Championship game 2 seasons ago. TWO SEASONS AGO. With Jake Plummer, who had no business being there.

So, you can't read, but the rest of us are retards?

I think that's been addressed probably 10 times on this thread. Maybe someone at home can help you read through the posts a bit?

Some people think 05 was a fluke. I don't. I think it was one nice season where we won our ONE playoff game in a decade.... a record that would get any other coach in the league kicked to the curb.

Subsequently, the team stunk it up for the seasons following. If he was "building a beast," wouldn't we have gotten better? Maybe we should ask the Patriots about building a beast. I'm guessing that their definition isn't... "winning one playoff game."

As for "building a beast," you have no basis for that. What beast? The .500 beast or the one with the defense ranked near the bottom of the league? The beast that can't run the ball? The beast that has to replace D-coordinators every other year?

Beast? That's you being hopeful, and we're all very hopeful. But, before you call people retards because you hope this team will get better, maybe you should step back, read some posts from the more educated around here and get your **** together.

Hoping your team improves is nice. It's also vastly different than having any factual information that they are. We've gotten progressively worse since 05 and besides 05, did absolutely nothing besides win a few regular season games since the SB days.

No one has defended Shanahan more than me. But, again... another year of this stuff, and it's time to call it a tenure.

Northman
04-30-2008, 12:41 PM
The Bronco running game has been going down hill for years now.


Yes it has. But so has our aging Oline which has gotten progressively worse and Denver has been very unlucky with injuries to our backs and a whole slew of players on this team. Thats why Denver is now trying to fix the Oline with younger players to remedy that. When we won our Super Bowls our key players very rarely got injured or missed that much game time. You have to look at the entire picture of why things have changed since then to truly understand why we have struggled.

colonelbeef
04-30-2008, 12:43 PM
Popps- if you can't grasp the idea that an NFL team working under salary cap restrictions can't win championships while completely rebuilding the entire team from the ground floor up, including replacing the QB, then I can't help you to understand the rest of my points.

Many in this thread, all over this board, and on other boards have claimed that Shanahan has accomplished nothing since 98. This is patently absurd. I pointed it out, and will again until people understand.

My amount of posts has exactly ZERO weight regarding which insults I can and cannot use- please do not use amount of posts as a badge of honor, it degrades us all.

Odysseus
04-30-2008, 12:45 PM
Every time I ask for list of potential replacement coaches I get nothing or 31 flavors of stupid.

stugotsII
04-30-2008, 12:47 PM
Yes it has. But so has our aging Oline which has gotten progressively worse and Denver has been very unlucky with injuries to our backs and a whole slew of players on this team. Thats why Denver is now trying to fix the Oline with younger players to remedy that. When we won our Super Bowls our key players very rarely got injured or missed that much game time. You have to look at the entire picture of why things have changed since then to truly understand why we have struggled.


Oh, I do...but Shanny is the figurehead of the team and most of the fault lays on his shoulders. What is the reason the OLine is too old? Mike didn't address this until it was too late.

colonelbeef
04-30-2008, 12:48 PM
Every time I ask for list of potential replacement coaches I get nothing or 31 flavors of stupid.

No kidding.

SureShot
04-30-2008, 12:49 PM
What's scarier?

Winning one playoff game in the last nine years?

Or potentially having a chance to win one by getting a new head coach?

If you look at all the teams that won multiple SBs in the 90's we have done pretty well over the last 10 years. The truth is it is we haven't had the horses over the years to get over the top.

stugotsII
04-30-2008, 12:51 PM
No kidding.

Gary Kubiak.

He would have been perfect.

Eldorado
04-30-2008, 12:55 PM
The way he handles running backs is smart. The average RB career is 4-5 seasons. Dumping high draft slots and money in a position that is a strength would be foolish. It's not about the running back and it's more about the line anyway.

rep

I cannot fathom why this logic is so hard to follow.

Northman
04-30-2008, 01:04 PM
Oh, I do...but Shanny is the figurehead of the team and most of the fault lays on his shoulders. What is the reason the OLine is too old? Mike didn't address this until it was too late.


Perhaps, but maybe after 05' Shanahan thought he could get by with the line he had. Maybe thats why now he has decided to take a different approach to the drafts and also weeding out bad character guys. Im not saying he is mistake free and hasnt made some questionable decisions but i do believe that he is trying to make this team better. Obviously, if he cant improve the team in a couple of years he may either retire or be fired but i all i have heard from Bowlen is that he supports Mike. And with the firings of guys around Mike i have to believe that Pat thinks its more the guys around Shanahan than Shanahan himself. Time will tell i guess.

Kaylore
04-30-2008, 01:11 PM
Wow, 96 posts and you're calling people "retards," huh? Off to a good start.



So, you can't read, but the rest of us are retards?

I think that's been addressed probably 10 times on this thread. Maybe someone at home can help you read through the posts a bit?

Some people think 05 was a fluke. I don't. I think it was one nice season where we won our ONE playoff game in a decade.... a record that would get any other coach in the league kicked to the curb.

Subsequently, the team stunk it up for the seasons following. If he was "building a beast," wouldn't we have gotten better? Maybe we should ask the Patriots about building a beast. I'm guessing that their definition isn't... "winning one playoff game."

As for "building a beast," you have no basis for that. What beast? The .500 beast or the one with the defense ranked near the bottom of the league? The beast that can't run the ball? The beast that has to replace D-coordinators every other year?

Beast? That's you being hopeful, and we're all very hopeful. But, before you call people retards because you hope this team will get better, maybe you should step back, read some posts from the more educated around here and get your **** together.

Hoping your team improves is nice. It's also vastly different than having any factual information that they are. We've gotten progressively worse since 05 and besides 05, did absolutely nothing besides win a few regular season games since the SB days.

No one has defended Shanahan more than me. But, again... another year of this stuff, and it's time to call it a tenure.

By your standard Popps just about every coach in the league should be fired.

Someday you people will realize its not coaching, its personnel. The two best quarterbacks in the league are the ones who are repeat visitors to the postseason. Everyone else has popped in and faded out the past ten years.

Bronco Jamus
04-30-2008, 01:13 PM
Shannahan was not the head coach when the 49ers won their Super Bowl.

The Bronco running game has been going down hill for years now. You can't just continue to plug in undrafted rookies and late round picks and think the running game is just fine. I know they brought in Henry, but I think everyone knows that was a mistake based on his off the field issues.

I'm willing to give him a couple more years with Cutler, but that's it.

He was still the man that got them and Steve Young over the hump. Steve Young has said so on Count Down. Henry could be or not be a mistake. It depends on how you look at it. His kids are his business, and the league rescinded it's pot charge. Either way our running game is one of the most productive in the league STILL, except in the redzone. We don't always use undrafted players either. In fact the only starter I can think of that was undrafted is Young. Gary, Portis, Anderson, Droughns, Coleman, Lovelle, Avery, Quentin, and Davis were all drafted. What we need is better line play in the redzone. That's it. We've got the Guards, Center, TE, and Tackles to get that back in shape.

Old Dude
04-30-2008, 01:13 PM
I don't see Shanny being fired, period.

FWIW, his coaching record with Denver compares pretty closely with that of Bill Cowher in Pittsburgh.

Cowher (15 seasons) .623 regular season winning %
Shanny (13 seasons) .625 regular season winning %

Cowher (playoffs) 12-9
Shanny (playoffs) 8-5

Cowher: 2 AFC championships, 1 SB win.
Shanny: 2 AFC championships, 2 SB wins.

Fairly comparable records. As I recall, there were some rumblings in Pittsburgh about getting rid of Cowher back in 03-04, but he won the SB in 2005 (his 14th season), and that all went away.

Eldorado
04-30-2008, 01:20 PM
Gary Kubiak.

He would have been perfect.

LOUD NOISES!!!

Northman
04-30-2008, 01:23 PM
I don't see Shanny being fired, period.

FWIW, his coaching record with Denver compares pretty closely with that of Bill Cowher in Pittsburgh.

Cowher (15 seasons) .623 regular season winning %
Shanny (13 seasons) .625 regular season winning %

Cowher (playoffs) 12-9
Shanny (playoffs) 8-5

Cowher: 2 AFC championships, 1 SB win.
Shanny: 2 AFC championships, 2 SB wins.

Fairly comparable records. As I recall, there were some rumblings in Pittsburgh about getting rid of Cowher back in 03-04, but he won the SB in 2005 (his 14th season), and that all went away.


Not only that but look at a guy like Fisher. He's only had 1 SB appearance in his career and lost it but yet the organization still believes in him enough to keep him as coach. He's 5-5 in his playoff history and even though his team went 10-6 last year he went 8-8, 4-12, and 5-11 the 3 years before that.

Bronco Jamus
04-30-2008, 01:28 PM
Cowher coached as an HC in like 5 AFCCG

colonelbeef
04-30-2008, 01:28 PM
Not only that but look at a guy like Fisher. He's only had 1 SB appearance in his career and lost it but yet the organization still believes in him enough to keep him as coach. He's 5-5 in his playoff history and even though his team went 10-6 last year he went 8-8, 4-12, and 5-11 the 3 years before that.

Fisher, Coughlin, Cowher, Holmgren, Parcells ( he didn't win anything without LT- gasp!) Dungy, Gruden, the list goes on and on. Could apply the same logic to coach after coach.

Keep Shanahan here for life.

lex
04-30-2008, 01:30 PM
Every time I ask for list of potential replacement coaches I get nothing or 31 flavors of stupid.

Not that I think theyre better X and O coach but they could work if a capable GM is also put in place:

Greg Knapp-- Raiders OC, was also OC in SF and Atl...has worked in WCO and with ZBS

Jim Harbaugh-- Stanford over USC was ginormous upset plus apparently he can coach QBs, his prodigy, Johnson, threw 43 TDs and 1 INT at San Diego

Jeff Tedford-- Has helped QBs so much that a few of them were overdrafted like Kyle Boller...runs a pro style offense and gets a lot out of his personnel when you consider that he has been competitive most of the time with USC in spite of being outmanned

Steve Sarkisian-- Oaklands choice over Layne Kiffin, is the OC at USC


Tom OBrien-- former coach at Boston College...was able to get a lot out of the little talent he had at BC which is huge at the next level considering the talent disparity isnt like what one sees in college. Likes to run the ball.

loborugger
04-30-2008, 01:39 PM
The drafting has been an abomination and the downfall of the organization. Let's review the drafts that should be the heart of the team right now, looking at all players selected in rounds 1 through 6:

2000: Deltha O'Neal, Ian Gold, Kenoy Kennedy, Chris Cole, Jerry Johnson, Cooper Carlisle, Muneer Moore, Mike Anderson.
2001: Willie Middlebrooks, Paul Toviessi, Reggie Hayward, Ben Hamilton, Nick Harris, Kevin Kasper.
2002: Ashley Lelie, Clinton Portis, Dorsett Davis, Sam Brandon, Herb Haygood, Jeb Putzier.
2003: George Foster, Terry Pierce, Quentin Griffin, Nick Eason, Bryant McNeal, Ben Claxton, Adrian Madise, Aaron Hunt.
2004: D.J. Williams, Tatum Bell, Darius Watts, Jeremy LeSueur, Jeff Shoate, Triandos Luke, Josh Sewell.
2005: Darrent Williams, Karl Paymah, Domonique Foxworth, Maurice Clarett, Chris Myers.
2006: Jay Cutler, Tony Scheffler, Brandon Marshall, Elvis Dumervil, Domenik Hixon, Chris Kuper, Greg Eslinger.
2007: Jarvis Moss, Tim Crowder, Ryan Harris, Marcus Thomas.

Excepting 2007 because it's too early to judge, other than the 2006 draft the rest are nothing short of train wrecks. Looking back at these drafts all you can do is shake your head. The depths of futility are just beyond compare.

Maybe somebody else can compile the wasteland that is our free agent signings over this same period. If you put that next to this mess your head might explode.

In conclusion, however, you really have to give Shanny credit for somehow getting 7 wins out of this mess last season, not to mention 9 the previous season.

All those who blast Shanny for the bad draft picks which in turn gives us a low quality roster conveniently forget that Shanny also perennially turns out a winning franchise with what is judged to be sub par talent....

Merlin
04-30-2008, 01:43 PM
I'm a Shanny fan but lets face facts here.
The guy made his name riding Elways coat tails. Since Elway left, this guy hasn't done much.
Elway and Young. Unless he has a 1st ballot hall of famer at QB, he's good enough to occasionally earn a playoff berth, where we get immediately exposed as a fraud and quickly dispatched. And Shanny had nothing to do with drafting Elway or acquiring Young.
The level of hate and simple lack of insight in this forum is simply stupefying sometimes. Make some chronological connection with a HOF QB and a coach, and then try to show world how utterly idiotic you can be.

Instead of analysing how well Shanny did with Elway, how about you flip the association. How well was Elway doing right before Shanny got here. That is right, the team was going down the toilet and he was beginning to look at the end of his career with no possibility to redeem himself. The first SB Denver wins is NOT because of Elway's magnificent play, but rather SHANNY's game plan. Denver was an afterthought for that SB, they were prohibitive underdogs. Madden claimed that even if Denver did EVERYTHING right, they were still going to be beat like every other AFC representative for the past decade. Yet Shanny and HIS game plan totally took EVERY football know-it-all and won the SB. Elway was an important player, but NOT the QB of prior SBs, and was NOT required to perform like in prior SBs. Elway has a SB ring because of Shanny, and not the other way around.

In case your ignorance cannot be overcome, I'll give you a hint regarding Young...that's right, he came nowhere close to sniffing the SB until Shanny was there to coach him and coordinate the offence.

Now, the last comment regarding shanny's performance the following years...where to begin. What has Griese done since he left, and what did Jake do before he came here? NOTHING. Yet they both became PB players under his tutelage and Denver reached the playoffs with REGULARITY, not occasionally. Again, those QBs have STUNK elsewhere, but were PB QBs with Shanny, and consistent visitors to the playoffs. Really, the level of ignorance in your claims is trully stupefying.

PS Also consider EVERY other OFFENCIVE player that has performed with and sans Shanny's tutelage. The only one that got something would be Sharpe, but his numbers still looked better under Shanny (in fact one of the record breaking games for [Edit:wrong name] Sharpe came after he left Baltimore and played for Shanny).

The funny thing is, you guys think you sound more intelligent because of your "insight" that is able to transcend team allegiance, yet your statements just merely betray your hate, and superficial knowledge of the game.

USMCBladerunner
04-30-2008, 01:46 PM
It probably is. This reminds me of all the people that say every white receiver on the team reminds them of Ed McCaffrey.

Consider Eddie Royal guilty!...lol...Hilarious!

Inkana7
04-30-2008, 01:49 PM
I fully expect that Shanny will have us in the AFC Championship Game in 2 years. He got his guy in Cutler, now he's surrounding him with weapons. If Marshall's healthy this season, I can easily see playoffs. Watch out in 2009.

Northman
04-30-2008, 01:53 PM
The level of hate and simple lack of insight in this forum is simply stupefying sometimes. Make some chronological connection with a HOF QB and a coach, and then try to show world how utterly idiotic you can be.

Instead of analysing how well Shanny did with Elway, how about you flip the association. How well was Elway doing right before Shanny got here. That is right, the team was going down the toilet and he was beginning to look at the end of his career with no possibility to redeem himself. The first SB Denver wins is NOT because of Elway's magnificent play, but rather SHANNY's game plan. Denver was an afterthought for that SB, they were prohibitive underdogs. Madden claimed that even if Denver did EVERYTHING right, they were still going to be beat like every other AFC representative for the past decade. Yet Shanny and HIS game plan totally took EVERY football know-it-all and won the SB. Elway was an important player, but NOT the QB of prior SBs, and was NOT required to perform like in prior SBs. Elway has a SB ring because of Shanny, and not the other way around.

In case your ignorance cannot be overcome, I'll give you a hint regarding Young...that's right, he came nowhere close to sniffing the SB until Shanny was there to coach him and coordinate the offence.

Now, the last comment regarding shanny's performance the following years...where to begin. What has Griese done since he left, and what did Jake do before he came here? NOTHING. Yet they both became PB players under his tutelage and Denver reached the playoffs with REGULARITY, not occasionally. Again, those QBs have STUNK elsewhere, but were PB QBs with Shanny, and consistent visitors to the playoffs. Really, the level of ignorance in your claims is trully stupefying.

PS Also consider EVERY other OFFENCIVE player that has performed with and sans Shanny's tutelage. The only one that got something would be Sharpe, but his numbers still looked better under Shanny (in fact one of the record breaking games for Shanny came after he left Baltimore and played for Shanny).

The funny thing is, you guys think you sound more intelligent because of your "insight" that is able to transcend team allegiance, yet your statements just merely betray your hate, and superficial knowledge of the game.


REP

Merlin
04-30-2008, 01:55 PM
If he was "building a beast," wouldn't we have gotten better? Maybe we should ask the Patriots about building a beast. I'm guessing that their definition isn't... "winning one playoff game."
Yeah, because Belicheat had everything to do with that franchise picking a HOF QB, and I'm sure their GM was thinking exactly that when he drafter pretty boy in the 6th. BTW, what has Belicheat done without a HOF, NOTHING. For that matter, has he been able to win a SB despite having the "GREATEST OFFENCE AND TEAM" on earth without cheating? No need to answer.

BTW, how was Denver looking and Elway's career looking right before Shanny came to Denver? And did Shanny DEPEND on Elway's arm to win that SB, or did he game plan around HIS TEAM to get the right strategy to win that SB?

And yes, the same goes for Young, nothing was happening before Shanny showed up. Conversely, NOTHING was happening with Belicheat until pretty boy showed up. So which coach is relying on a HOF QB to make his stamp and which coach is coaching his QB and offence to reach the promised land?

colonelbeef
04-30-2008, 02:06 PM
Merlin gets it. I can't wait till the complainers are forced to cheer this team in the playoffs. I bet most of them will claim undying allegiance then, and praise the amazing foresight of Shanahan and Bowlen to draft Cutler and dump Plummer

Old Dude
04-30-2008, 02:08 PM
Cowher coached as an HC in like 5 AFCCG

Where he went 2-3, right? In 15 years?

Shanny would be 2-1 in 13 years. So it's not really that far off. Plus, I'd guess that most fans would consider Shanny's extra win in the SB to be worth at least a couple of AFCCG losses from an overall career "success" standpoint.

Gcver2ver3
04-30-2008, 02:13 PM
LOUD NOISES!!!

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TonyR
04-30-2008, 02:16 PM
All those who blast Shanny for the bad draft picks which in turn gives us a low quality roster conveniently forget that Shanny also perennially turns out a winning franchise with what is judged to be sub par talent....

Um, if you go back and read the post of mine which you yourself referenced you'll see I did exactly that. I've made it easy for you and posted my exact words below:

"In conclusion, however, you really have to give Shanny credit for somehow getting 7 wins out of this mess last season, not to mention 9 the previous season."

I am a Broncos fan so by default I root for Shanny to succeed, but to deny that his personnel decisions over the past 10 years, including drafts, free agents, and coaches, have generally been awful is ridiculous. The result is one playoff win in that same time period. It's really not that difficult.

I don't want to replace him because I think he's a very good coach. But if we don't win a playoff game within the next two seasons then I think he needs to be stripped of his GM responsibilities.

Archie
04-30-2008, 02:18 PM
The drafting has been an abomination and the downfall of the organization. Let's review the drafts that should be the heart of the team right now, looking at all players selected in rounds 1 through 6:

2000: Deltha O'Neal, Ian Gold, Kenoy Kennedy, Chris Cole, Jerry Johnson, Cooper Carlisle, Muneer Moore, Mike Anderson.
2001: Willie Middlebrooks, Paul Toviessi, Reggie Hayward, Ben Hamilton, Nick Harris, Kevin Kasper.
2002: Ashley Lelie, Clinton Portis, Dorsett Davis, Sam Brandon, Herb Haygood, Jeb Putzier.
2003: George Foster, Terry Pierce, Quentin Griffin, Nick Eason, Bryant McNeal, Ben Claxton, Adrian Madise, Aaron Hunt.
2004: D.J. Williams, Tatum Bell, Darius Watts, Jeremy LeSueur, Jeff Shoate, Triandos Luke, Josh Sewell.
2005: Darrent Williams, Karl Paymah, Domonique Foxworth, Maurice Clarett, Chris Myers.
2006: Jay Cutler, Tony Scheffler, Brandon Marshall, Elvis Dumervil, Domenik Hixon, Chris Kuper, Greg Eslinger.
2007: Jarvis Moss, Tim Crowder, Ryan Harris, Marcus Thomas.

Excepting 2007 because it's too early to judge, other than the 2006 draft the rest are nothing short of train wrecks. Looking back at these drafts all you can do is shake your head. The depths of futility are just beyond compare.



Ok - it definitely should have been better. However, to describe every one of those years other then 2006 as a "train wreck" is over the top.


2000: Five of eight were still playing significant time in the NFL as of late as last year. Deltha certainly had his issues here - but has played 9 years in the NFL and been to the pro-bowl a couple of times. Ian Gold was still starting for us last year (even if it was a year or two too long). Complain all you want about the ultimate value we got for these players - it was not a failure in drafting.
2001: Certified train wreck
2002: Lelie was the classic failure. But, Portis got us Champ - so that alone makes this a successful draft. Sam Brandon and Putz played for the Broncos for several years.
2003: Basically another train wreck. We got 1/2 of Bly with this draft and essentially nothing else.
2004: DJ Williams is a stud who's been completely misused for all but his rookie year. Tatum Bell was the other half of Bly. Not that Bly is "all that" but he is probably near the top of the league in terms of #2 corners. So, not a great draft top to bottom but definitely ok value out of #1 and #2 and if DJ can become the player he looked like his rookie year this could be even stronger. However, definitley not a train wreck.
2005: Darrent was definite quality but was shot dead. Paymah and Foxworth are still on the roster and contributting (although Paymah will have tough road to hoe this year to make the team). Chris Myers started last year and netted an additional 6th round pick this year. Other then the weird and stupid experiment w/ Clarett this was a good draft - definitely not a train wreck.


So, our drafting could have been better. We did totally waste two complete draft classes. 15 of the 26 players in the non-train wreck drafts have had significant playing time us although (other then Champ for Portis - no super stars). With those two drafts included it's 15 of 40.

Anyway, while it's popular to say our drafting is abysmal and it's obvious we could have done better, they have not all been train wrecks. Look anywhere in the league. It's a rare occurance on any team where the can look back across five or six draft classes and see significant contribution top to bottom. The Hershall Walker built Dallas Cowboys and the 49's from the 1980's may be the best two examples I can think of. New England has done well - few other teams can say they have done very well and a number have done worse.

Merlin
04-30-2008, 02:18 PM
Not that I think theyre better X and O coach but they could work if a capable GM is also put in place:

Greg Knapp-- Raiders OC, was also OC in SF and Atl...has worked in WCO and with ZBS
This has got to be a joke. You want to trade Shanny for an OC that has accomplished absolutely NOTHING! You should have just stopped there

Jim Harbaugh--
Jeff Tedford--
Steve Sarkisian--
Tom OBrien--
Considering the GRAND majority of the teams in the NFL do substantially worse than Denver year-in-year-out, and the fact that they have mediocre HC, have you ever wondered why they don't improve? Because it ain't as simple as plug-and-play. Moreover, success in the college ranks has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with success at the NFL. Some of the BEST college coaches have come up to the NFL in the past decade, and NOT A SINGLE ONE has gotten a sniff of the SB, much less its trophy.
How typical to try to take a proven coach with some issues and try and replace him with unproven coaches in a totally different league, which have generally shown CANNOT succeed in the NFL.

Hawaii_Guy
04-30-2008, 02:21 PM
The level of hate and simple lack of insight in this forum is simply stupefying sometimes. Make some chronological connection with a HOF QB and a coach, and then try to show world how utterly idiotic you can be.

Instead of analysing how well Shanny did with Elway, how about you flip the association. How well was Elway doing right before Shanny got here. That is right, the team was going down the toilet and he was beginning to look at the end of his career with no possibility to redeem himself. The first SB Denver wins is NOT because of Elway's magnificent play, but rather SHANNY's game plan. Denver was an afterthought for that SB, they were prohibitive underdogs. Madden claimed that even if Denver did EVERYTHING right, they were still going to be beat like every other AFC representative for the past decade. Yet Shanny and HIS game plan totally took EVERY football know-it-all and won the SB. Elway was an important player, but NOT the QB of prior SBs, and was NOT required to perform like in prior SBs. Elway has a SB ring because of Shanny, and not the other way around.

In case your ignorance cannot be overcome, I'll give you a hint regarding Young...that's right, he came nowhere close to sniffing the SB until Shanny was there to coach him and coordinate the offence.

Now, the last comment regarding shanny's performance the following years...where to begin. What has Griese done since he left, and what did Jake do before he came here? NOTHING. Yet they both became PB players under his tutelage and Denver reached the playoffs with REGULARITY, not occasionally. Again, those QBs have STUNK elsewhere, but were PB QBs with Shanny, and consistent visitors to the playoffs. Really, the level of ignorance in your claims is trully stupefying.

PS Also consider EVERY other OFFENCIVE player that has performed with and sans Shanny's tutelage. The only one that got something would be Sharpe, but his numbers still looked better under Shanny (in fact one of the record breaking games for Shanny came after he left Baltimore and played for Shanny).

The funny thing is, you guys think you sound more intelligent because of your "insight" that is able to transcend team allegiance, yet your statements just merely betray your hate, and superficial knowledge of the game.


I could not have said it better. Anyone that knows me knows that I love the broncos more then anything. Yet you know why I have so few posts on here? Because there are so many damn dumb people talking about the Broncos like they know what they are talking about. I try to make nice and just say nothing but the things that have been said in this thread are sad. Mike is a great coach, and sadly there are 32 teams in the NFL if you win once every 32 years or make the SB every 16 years you are doing good. We have been to 6, and will be to more in the near future.
Lastly everyone talks about the Drafts. Have we made our mistakes? Yes But so have other teams and if you look at the past 2 drafts I think the 06 draft could go down as one of the best all time. they talk about the 6 or so drafts we have made mistakes but with one or two good drafts it can all be turned around. MARK MY WORDS WE WILL BE IN THE PLAYOFFS THIS YEAR

Needa Pass Rush
04-30-2008, 02:23 PM
Popps- if you can't grasp the idea that an NFL team working under salary cap restrictions can't win championships while completely rebuilding the entire team from the ground floor up, including replacing the QB, then I can't help you to understand the rest of my points.

Many in this thread, all over this board, and on other boards have claimed that Shanahan has accomplished nothing since 98. This is patently absurd. I pointed it out, and will again until people understand.

My amount of posts has exactly ZERO weight regarding which insults I can and cannot use- please do not use amount of posts as a badge of honor, it degrades us all.

You mentioned the Cutler draft as one for the ages, but weighted against the last 8 drafts it still shows Shanahan's FO team failing far more frequently then they succeeded. This performance carries over into the FAgency markets, as well. This has been the Achilles heel for our team and exacerbates the the salary cap conundrum that you flaunt above.

I, for one, like a lot of what Shanahan brings to the table and am willing to allow him enough rope to hang himself. However, there is no denying that a majority of his personel decisions have not been very good and to the detriment of the team.

And Popps has a point. You're entitled to your opinion, but you should scrap the name calling as it degrades you all by itself.

OABB
04-30-2008, 02:29 PM
So all coaches that have great players on their team sucK?

where's the smilie for a joke flying right over someone's head?

Needa Pass Rush
04-30-2008, 02:32 PM
By your standard Popps just about every coach in the league should be fired.

Someday you people will realize its not coaching, its personnel. The two best quarterbacks in the league are the ones who are repeat visitors to the postseason. Everyone else has popped in and faded out the past ten years.

The one spot that I think Shanahan is vulnerable is in the personnel area. The problem with what you state above Kaylore is that Shanahan runs the whole ship. He has complete say so on the personnel. If he isn't getting the right guys or taking the best decisions then it falls on him to make the adjustments to improve that area. He may have turned the corner in that regard over the last couple years. Time will tell. I like the potential of the new batch of Bronx if the injuries are able to emerge from the infirmary.

sixtimeseight
04-30-2008, 02:35 PM
All I'm saying is that without two hall of famers, the guy is pretty average.

That's nice. Show me one Super Bowl winning team that didn't have any hall of famers on it. Guess what, it's hard to win in this league without good players.

Rock Chalk
04-30-2008, 02:36 PM
Many of these negative posts reek of a spoiled fanbase.
"we had 2 losing seasons since 1995" WAAAAAH


Posted the most wins in pro football history in a three-year period (46 in 1996-98).
Won the most postseason games in history over a two-year period (seven, 1997-98).
Been undefeated and untied for three consecutive regular seasons (1996-98) at home, just the second team ever to be undefeated and untied at home in three consecutive years.
In 2004, he joined the exclusive club of head coaches to post 100 wins in his first 10 seasons with one club, finishing the campaign and decade tied for fourth on this ultra-impressive list of 12 coaches, six of whom are in the Pro Football Hall of Fame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_Football_Hall_of_Fame).
Joins Vince Lombardi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Lombardi), Don Shula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Shula), Chuck Noll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Noll), Jimmy Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Johnson_%28American_football_coach%29) and Bill Belichick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Belichick) as the only six coaches to win back-to-back Super Bowls.
He is the second coach in history to win two Super Bowl titles in his first four years coaching a team (Shula did it first and Belichick did it later, winning two Super Bowls in his first four seasons in New England).
Highest winning percentage in Denver history (.646).
Shanahan is one of seven coaches in pro football history to post four wins in one postseason along with Tom Flores (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Flores), Joe Gibbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Gibbs), Brian Billick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Billick), Bill Cowher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cowher), Tony Dungy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Dungy) and Tom Coughlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Coughlin).
Only coach with seven postseason wins in a two-year period.
The all-time high of 636 points in a season came from the 1994 Super Bowl Champion San Francisco 49ers, for whom Shanahan was the offensive coordinator.
During his NFL career, Shanahan has been a part of teams that have played in 10 Conference Championship Games, in addition to his six Super Bowl appearances, five with Denver and Super Bowl XXIX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXIX) with San Francisco.But yeah. lets go out and hire Schottenheimer.

Crybaby spoiled brats, don't know a GREAT thing when it dryhumps your face

Baaaaah.

You are just another ****ing sheep.

USMCBladerunner
04-30-2008, 02:50 PM
Merlin is lighting it up here and I'm going to pile on.

The argument that a coach can't win without an HOF QB is vapid. Based on recent SB Champs, to win it all you need either a HOF QB (NE, Indy, St Louis (Warner won't be HOF, but he was playing like it then) or a D that is at or near the top of the league (Baltimore, NY, Tampa, Pittsburgh). There are no exceptions, and in Pittsburgh's case, the D was augmented with a excellent QB (his SB performance nothwithstanding).

Bellichek (sp?) didn't accomplish much in Cleveland, Dungy wasn't crushing skulls in Tampa, and St Louis flashed as quickly as their QB. QB play really does matter, so the argument against Shanahan in this regard doesn't really hold water.


The argument that Shanny mishandles RBs as a coach is laughably stupid. If there is one position that simply does not matter in terms of sustained offensive success in the NFL, it is RB. This is not to be confused with a running game, which is very important. The correlation between great RB and great team has to be close to 0. Between Steven Jackson, Reggie Bush, LT, Larry Johnson, Clinton Portis, Barry Sanders, AD, Ricky Williams, Tiki Barber, and whomever your favorite rock toter may be, having a stud RB doesn't carry a team into and through the playoffs. An offensive line that creates a running attack is a win condition. A super-star RB adds a "win better" sort of contribution, but is unable to do much of anything without a quality line as a pre-condition. The fact that Shanahan leverages this by trading decent RBs with good numbers into cornerbacks and lineman is a positive, not a negative. It's not even that brilliant, really, more obvious. Everything about RBs value in the NFL is out of whack when the most common measure of aptitude is the 1000 yard rusher (which is rather ineffective given a typical # of carries for a RB over a season). To play this card really weakens your case and your standing as a debater.

Lastly, god help us if one of that list that Lex put out were to ever become the coach here. Jeff Tedford? I mean I can sort of see it, given the stellar play of his QBs as they transition to the NFL...please...most college coaches don't transition well to the NFL as HC...at least not without some time at position or coordinator jobs first. I'd rather not go there.

Kubiak is a maybe. He does appeal with his ties to the glory days, and if Shanny were to go, I'd be on board for Kubiak to take over.

Cito Pelon
04-30-2008, 02:53 PM
Many of these negative posts reek of a spoiled fanbase.
"we had 2 losing seasons since 1995" WAAAAAH

But yeah. lets go out and hire Schottenheimer.

Crybaby spoiled brats, don't know a GREAT thing when it dryhumps your face

The only thing Shanny is even GOOD at is possibly OC, and even that is in doubt.

Most people in Denver that have been around awhile realize Shanny is an overrrated, blowhard, bag of wind.

cmhargrove
04-30-2008, 02:58 PM
Not that I think theyre better X and O coach but they could work if a capable GM is also put in place:

Greg Knapp-- Raiders OC, was also OC in SF and Atl...has worked in WCO and with ZBS

Jim Harbaugh-- Stanford over USC was ginormous upset plus apparently he can coach QBs, his prodigy, Johnson, threw 43 TDs and 1 INT at San Diego

Jeff Tedford-- Has helped QBs so much that a few of them were overdrafted like Kyle Boller...runs a pro style offense and gets a lot out of his personnel when you consider that he has been competitive most of the time with USC in spite of being outmanned

Steve Sarkisian-- Oaklands choice over Layne Kiffin, is the OC at USC


Tom OBrien-- former coach at Boston College...was able to get a lot out of the little talent he had at BC which is huge at the next level considering the talent disparity isnt like what one sees in college. Likes to run the ball.

I'm all ears here. But you honestly think any of these guys would best Shanahan as a head coach?

When was the last college coach that jumped in to the NFL and started winning? I think you need a proven NFL O-coordinator or D-coordinator with a "system" you like. Even guys like Pete Carroll who rocks in the collegiate level didn't do so well as an NFL head coach. Atlanta was pretty excited about Petrino last year.

All these guys you mention are untested.

I am a Shanahan guy. However, if you are going to mention a replacement, I think you need a dynamic young guy like Jason Garrett from the Cowpukes (like an early Shanahan). He has proven what he can do with the right talent and QB, and he uses a balanced attack with the right mix of vertical passing and power running. A lot of these other "maybes" would just lead us to the cellar with really great draft picks for about 6-8 years.

And, I would consider Ryan as a good D-coordinator for the Raiders, but Knapp - what has he done to impress?

Eldorado
04-30-2008, 02:59 PM
Merlin is lighting it up here and I'm going to pile on.

The argument that a coach can't win without an HOF QB is vapid. Based on recent SB Champs, to win it all you need either a HOF QB (NE, Indy, St Louis (Warner won't be HOF, but he was playing like it then) or a D that is at or near the top of the league (Baltimore, NY, Tampa, Pittsburgh). There are no exceptions, and in Pittsburgh's case, the D was augmented with a excellent QB (his SB performance nothwithstanding).

Bellicheat (sp?) didn't accomplish much in Cleveland, Dungy wasn't crushing skulls in Tampa, and St Louis flashed as quickly as their QB. QB play really does matter, so the argument against Shanahan in this regard doesn't really hold water.


The argument that Shanny mishandles RBs as a coach is laughably stupid. If there is one position that simply does not matter in terms of sustained offensive success in the NFL, it is RB. This is not to be confused with a running game, which is very important. The correlation between great RB and great team has to be close to 0. Between Steven Jackson, Reggie Bush, LT, Larry Johnson, Clinton Portis, Barry Sanders, AD, Ricky Williams, Tiki Barber, and whomever your favorite rock toter may be, having a stud RB doesn't carry a team into and through the playoffs. An offensive line that creates a running attack is a win condition. A super-star RB adds a "win better" sort of contribution, but is unable to do much of anything without a quality line as a pre-condition. The fact that Shanahan leverages this by trading decent RBs with good numbers into cornerbacks and lineman is a positive, not a negative. It's not even that brilliant, really, more obvious. Everything about RBs value in the NFL is out of whack when the most common measure of aptitude is the 1000 yard rusher (which is rather ineffective given a typical # of carries for a RB over a season). To play this card really weakens your case and your standing as a debater.

Lastly, god help us if one of that list that Lex put out were to ever become the coach here. Jeff Tedford? I mean I can sort of see it, given the stellar play of his QBs as they transition to the NFL...please...most college coaches don't transition well to the NFL as HC...at least not without some time at position or coordinator jobs first. I'd rather not go there.

Kubiak is a maybe. He does appeal with his ties to the glory days, and if Shanny were to go, I'd be on board for Kubiak to take over.

fixed it for ya.

Eldorado
04-30-2008, 03:00 PM
The only thing Shanny is even GOOD at is possibly OC, and even that is in doubt.

Most people in Denver that have been around awhile realize I am a overrrated, blowhard, bag of wind.

fixed this one too.

cmhargrove
04-30-2008, 03:03 PM
The only thing Shanny is even GOOD at is possibly OC, and even that is in doubt.

Most people in Denver that have been around awhile realize Shanny is an overrrated, blowhard, bag of wind.

Why is it that his players constantly show him respect? Even the ones that leave the team.

Most teams have people in the locker room that openly question the head coach - why don't we have that in Denver if everyone disrespects him? I think you're making that crap up instead of listening directly to what the players (and former staff) are saying.

Did Coyer bitch? Did Kubiak bitch? Al Wilson or Plummer? Did Bates? None of these guys chose to unload on Shanahan. If they thought he was so incompetent, I think at least one of them would have said it. Or maybe you are just making crap up?

USMCBladerunner
04-30-2008, 03:04 PM
fixed it for ya.

meh...there are those that think NE cheating probably didn't make a difference so the issue should be let go...there are also those that think the taping made all the difference, and NE wouldn't have been as good as they have been without it.

I'm of the opinion that NE cheating probably didn't make a big difference, but that they should still be hung out to dry for cheating...

I really dislike Bellichek, but I'm not willing to void NE's success because of video tape...the commish should still crush their nuts, especially if Beli lied to Godell about the extent of their taping activities...

jonny1
04-30-2008, 03:08 PM
For all the people bagging on Shanahan about drafting, consider this:

In 1998, Bill Parcells (who's name was brought up many times in the past as the GM the Broncos needed) and Jimmy Johnson drafted 22 players between them for the Jets and Dolphins.

Only THREE of those 22 started more than one year.

But I guess they suck at personnel decisions too.

Eldorado
04-30-2008, 03:09 PM
meh...there are those that think NE cheating probably didn't make a difference so the issue should be let go...there are also those that think the taping made all the difference, and NE wouldn't have been as good as they have been without it.

I'm of the opinion that NE cheating probably didn't make a big difference, but that they should still be hung out to dry for cheating...

I really dislike Bellichek, but I'm not willing to void NE's success because of video tape...the commish should still crush their nuts, especially if Beli lied to Godell about the extent of their taping activities...

I agree. I think 18-1 is a stellar accomplishment, not to be scoffed at. In fact, we should all say it out loud. "18-1!! 18-1!! 18-1!! 18-1!! "

USMCBladerunner
04-30-2008, 03:11 PM
I agree. I think 18-1 is a stellar accomplishment, not to be scoffed at. In fact, we should all say it out loud. "18-1!! 18-1!! 18-1!! 18-1!! "

lol...nice :approve:

Tombstone RJ
04-30-2008, 03:16 PM
Every time I ask for list of potential replacement coaches I get nothing or 31 flavors of stupid.

Please go see post #87 where I directly answered your question.

Let me say it again: I'm not arguing Shanny is a great X's and O's coach. He is. My contention is his mismanagment of player-personell that has left the team hurting for talent in many areas.

Let me say it again: After two more years (and if I was Bowlen) of no playoff wins, I'd offer Shanahan the option of remaining as HC, but stepping down as de facto GM. In other words, I'd do what the Seattle ownership did a few years back with Mike Holmgren.

If Shanahan could not live with that arrangement, I part ways with him, hire a sound GM, and let the GM then hire the coaching staff, and take care of all player personell decisions. At this point, the franchise would truly be in a complete rebuild.

loborugger
04-30-2008, 03:20 PM
Um, if you go back and read the post of mine which you yourself referenced you'll see I did exactly that. I've made it easy for you and posted my exact words below:

"In conclusion, however, you really have to give Shanny credit for somehow getting 7 wins out of this mess last season, not to mention 9 the previous season."

I am a Broncos fan so by default I root for Shanny to succeed, but to deny that his personnel decisions over the past 10 years, including drafts, free agents, and coaches, have generally been awful is ridiculous. The result is one playoff win in that same time period. It's really not that difficult.

I don't want to replace him because I think he's a very good coach. But if we don't win a playoff game within the next two seasons then I think he needs to be stripped of his GM responsibilities.

Saw what you said. And I dont disagree. However, there are those here who focus solely on the failures.

lex
04-30-2008, 03:33 PM
How typical to try to take a proven coach with some issues and try and replace him with unproven coaches in a totally different league, which have generally shown CANNOT succeed in the NFL.

Knucklehead, read the entire post. Moreover, Ive given enormous credit to Shanahan in this thread for his acumen. I mean, how many people have worked under Switzer during the wishbone days and for the 49ers in the WCO offense days? Not many. Ive actually said his acumen for Xs and Os is second to known and thats extremely difficult to replace and a decision that should not be taken lightly. Look it up.

But notice how I also mentioned those guys in tandem with a competent GM and where I explicitly said they likely wont bring the level of expertise we get with Shanahan. But his shortcoming clearly has been personnel desicions. Once again, notice how I emphasized having a competent GM.

TheChamp24
04-30-2008, 03:42 PM
Personally, i think Shanny has 2 years to "rebuild" and get back to a contender level. 2009 is his make or break year for me. If the team hasn't started to turn it around that year, then someone has got to go.

lex
04-30-2008, 03:43 PM
meh...there are those that think NE cheating probably didn't make a difference so the issue should be let go...there are also those that think the taping made all the difference, and NE wouldn't have been as good as they have been without it.

I'm of the opinion that NE cheating probably didn't make a big difference, but that they should still be hung out to dry for cheating...

I really dislike Bellichek, but I'm not willing to void NE's success because of video tape...the commish should still crush their nuts, especially if Beli lied to Godell about the extent of their taping activities...

Its been a different era during the time tha NE has won SBs. During our time of winning SBs there were several elite QBs around the league, whether it was Steve Young, Aikman, Kelly, Marino...etc. Since that generation of QBs (incl Elway) have retired however, they havent really been replaced with as many pocket passing QBs, and therefor because there are fewer pocket passing QBs, its a greater advantage to have one and since the last generation of greats have retired, theres really only been 2 elite QBs: Manning and Brady. There have been some other good ones but not on the same level as the Marinos, Elways, Kellys, Youngs, etc. The reason for that is partly due to the fact that coaches have less time to wait for a pocket passer to blossom, whereas if they play a scrambler or a game manager, theres a more immediate benefit. The benefit of having a pocket passing QB exceeds that of having a scrambler or a game manager but they take longer to develop and a lot of coaches dont have enough job security to allow that. Plus at a certain level you just have to give credit to that generation of QBs. We've been spoiled to witness one of the best in the golden era of QBs. But like I said, the landscape has changed and the dearth of elite QBs have made it a greater advantage to have an elite QB than it did in the 80s and 90s. Back then, it wasnt enough to have a great QB, there were enough other teams who had them. You had to have an entire team. Now it seems like you can get by with less. In the 90s teams had to have more balance to win the SB.

But it to be fair, it should also be pointed out that Belichick hasnt exactly done a lot of winning without Brady. Denver has fielded competitive teams whether it was with Griese/Frerotte/Beuerlein or Plummer. Another thing people need to realize before they point to postseason success is that since our SB days, the AFC West has usually been tougher than most of the other divisions and that means fewer easy games. And fewer easy games leads to playing Indy in Indy.

But like I said, there can be no doubt that we've fallen short where personnel has been concerned.

Eldorado
04-30-2008, 03:56 PM
Its been a different era during the time tha NE has won SBs. During our time of winning SBs there were several elite QBs around the league, whether it was Steve Young, Aikman, Kelly, Marino...etc. Since that generation of QBs (incl Elway) have retired however, they havent really been replaced with as many pocket passing QBs, and therefor because there are fewer pocket passing QBs, its a greater advantage to have one and since the last generation of greats have retired, theres really only been 2 elite QBs: Manning and Brady. There have been some other good ones but not on the same level as the Marinos, Elways, Kellys, Youngs, etc. The reason for that is partly due to the fact that coaches have less time to wait for a pocket passer to blossom, whereas if they play a scrambler or a game manager, theres a more immediate benefit. The benefit of having a pocket passing QB exceeds that of having a scrambler or a game manager but they take longer to develop and a lot of coaches dont have enough job security to allow that. Plus at a certain level you just have to give credit to that generation of QBs. We've been spoiled to witness one of the best in the golden era of QBs. But like I said, the landscape has changed and the dearth of elite QBs have made it a greater advantage to have an elite QB than it did in the 80s and 90s. Back then, it wasnt enough to have a great QB, there were enough other teams who had them. You had to have an entire team. Now it seems like you can get by with less. In the 90s teams had to have more balance to win the SB.

But it to be fair, it should also be pointed out that Belichick hasnt exactly done a lot of winning without Brady. Denver has fielded competitive teams whether it was with Griese/Frerotte/Beuerlein or Plummer. Another thing people need to realize before they point to postseason success is that since our SB days, the AFC West has usually been tougher than most of the other divisions and that means fewer easy games. And fewer easy games leads to playing Indy in Indy.

But like I said, there can be no doubt that we've fallen short where personnel has been concerned.

What the hell does that have to do with BR's post?

Broncomutt
04-30-2008, 04:24 PM
The NFL evolves and leaves people behind. Not sure why people think Shanny is immune to this kind of change. It happened to Noll, Shula, Landry, Gibbs, all greater coaches than Shanny. So pointing out past success does not guarantee future success as some of you seem to think.

I think Shanny was one of the greatest coaches in the NFL during the 90s and I am soooo glad he was our coach. I don't want to see him fired. I'd like to see him step down though.

Popps
04-30-2008, 04:29 PM
People also just need to come to grips with the fact that he might be a great coach, and have might have done great things for us... but sometimes a change of leadership is necessary. We've seen many great coaches move around and have success.

I'm hoping we have a great year, and we can put together another SB team for us. But, I'm also realistic enough to know when it's time to consider other options.

Another crap-can season like the last two, and it's time to look at other options.

DenverBrit
04-30-2008, 04:39 PM
The only thing Shanny is even GOOD at is possibly OC, and even that is in doubt.

Most people in Denver that have been around awhile realize Shanny is an overrrated, blowhard, bag of wind.

With a name change, he'd fit right in with the crowd screaming 'OMG, WTF!! Get rid of Shanahan.' LOL

Northman
04-30-2008, 04:56 PM
The NFL evolves and leaves people behind. Not sure why people think Shanny is immune to this kind of change. It happened to Noll, Shula, Landry, Gibbs, all greater coaches than Shanny. So pointing out past success does not guarantee future success as some of you seem to think.

I think Shanny was one of the greatest coaches in the NFL during the 90s and I am soooo glad he was our coach. I don't want to see him fired. I'd like to see him step down though.


Yes, the NFL has evolved especially since free agency came into play. Landry coached the Cowboys team for 3 decades!!!! Now, he had a lot of winning seasons with only 9 losing seasons but he also coached for a very long time. And he was 2-3 in Super Bowls. His first winning season didnt come until in his 7th year. Noll had coached for 23 years with 7 losing seasons before he left with a 4-0 SB record. Shula for 26 years. His last 10 years he was 5-5 as far as winning seasons are concerned with a 2-3 SB record.

Shanahan has coached for 13 years and has had only 2 losing seasons with two Championships. So what is the difference here? The difference between these coaches and Shanahan is the time allowed to keep putting a winning product on the field. To top it all off its far more difficult now to do that with free agency than it was when those "greater" coaches won all their titles. So i think considering how it has changed in the NFL Shanahan should get far more credit than he is getting from a lot of you. I would be very surprised if the Broncos dont improve drastically the next couple of years. But i think he should be given the benefit of the doubt until that day comes.

USMCBladerunner
04-30-2008, 04:58 PM
Its been a different era during the time tha NE has won SBs. During our time of winning SBs there were several elite QBs around the league, whether it was Steve Young, Aikman, Kelly, Marino...etc. Since that generation of QBs (incl Elway) have retired however, they havent really been replaced with as many pocket passing QBs, and therefor because there are fewer pocket passing QBs, its a greater advantage to have one and since the last generation of greats have retired, theres really only been 2 elite QBs: Manning and Brady. There have been some other good ones but not on the same level as the Marinos, Elways, Kellys, Youngs, etc. The reason for that is partly due to the fact that coaches have less time to wait for a pocket passer to blossom, whereas if they play a scrambler or a game manager, theres a more immediate benefit. The benefit of having a pocket passing QB exceeds that of having a scrambler or a game manager but they take longer to develop and a lot of coaches dont have enough job security to allow that. Plus at a certain level you just have to give credit to that generation of QBs. We've been spoiled to witness one of the best in the golden era of QBs. But like I said, the landscape has changed and the dearth of elite QBs have made it a greater advantage to have an elite QB than it did in the 80s and 90s. Back then, it wasnt enough to have a great QB, there were enough other teams who had them. You had to have an entire team. Now it seems like you can get by with less. In the 90s teams had to have more balance to win the SB.

But it to be fair, it should also be pointed out that Belichick hasnt exactly done a lot of winning without Brady. Denver has fielded competitive teams whether it was with Griese/Frerotte/Beuerlein or Plummer. Another thing people need to realize before they point to postseason success is that since our SB days, the AFC West has usually been tougher than most of the other divisions and that means fewer easy games. And fewer easy games leads to playing Indy in Indy.

But like I said, there can be no doubt that we've fallen short where personnel has been concerned.

Well, I guess I would generally agree that the SB Champ teams of the 90s were probably deeper and better than those of this decade, but I'd bet that it has more to to with Free Agency and salary cap than the quality of QBs.

Even if you are right, when I look at the 90s and see the SB Champs having, Young (HOF), Aikman (HOF), Farve (HOF), Elway (HOF), and Warner (not HOF but NFL MVP that year), all I see is validation of my argument. A key part of the equation to NFl success is finding a great QB.

To that end, Shanahan inherited one in Elway, didn't find one in Griese or Plummer, and just might have one in Cutler. The one angle that could be made in this area is that Shanahan took too long to move on with Griese and Plummer, but with Griese going to the Pro-Bowl and Plummer winning 60-75% of his games and going to the AFC championship, this is a thin case. To make such a claim is to basically assert that Shanahan is too good of a football coach for his own good, and he squeezed too much blood out of those two turnips and delayed a necessary re-build. I don't agree with this at all. I think that Denver stayed as competetive as possible, and when the opportunity presented itself to grab a franchise QB, Denver took it. The consequences of that have been the last two seasons. I don't like it, and I won't claim it's inevitable, because Pittsburgh didn't have the same result, but it is the norm in the NFL.

I concur completely that Denver has missed draft opportunities to improve over the years. All teams do, and Denver is reaping the rewards now. The good news is that the trend seems to be for the better, and if we bottom out at 7-9, I'm not sure it goes down as a collossal failure. If we missed on Cutler and the new lines, then Denver and Shanahan will be in trouble. My suspicion is that this isn't the case.

stugotsII
04-30-2008, 04:59 PM
The level of hate and simple lack of insight in this forum is simply stupefying sometimes. Make some chronological connection with a HOF QB and a coach, and then try to show world how utterly idiotic you can be.

Instead of analysing how well Shanny did with Elway, how about you flip the association. How well was Elway doing right before Shanny got here. That is right, the team was going down the toilet and he was beginning to look at the end of his career with no possibility to redeem himself. The first SB Denver wins is NOT because of Elway's magnificent play, but rather SHANNY's game plan. Denver was an afterthought for that SB, they were prohibitive underdogs. Madden claimed that even if Denver did EVERYTHING right, they were still going to be beat like every other AFC representative for the past decade. Yet Shanny and HIS game plan totally took EVERY football know-it-all and won the SB. Elway was an important player, but NOT the QB of prior SBs, and was NOT required to perform like in prior SBs. Elway has a SB ring because of Shanny, and not the other way around.

In case your ignorance cannot be overcome, I'll give you a hint regarding Young...that's right, he came nowhere close to sniffing the SB until Shanny was there to coach him and coordinate the offence.

Now, the last comment regarding shanny's performance the following years...where to begin. What has Griese done since he left, and what did Jake do before he came here? NOTHING. Yet they both became PB players under his tutelage and Denver reached the playoffs with REGULARITY, not occasionally. Again, those QBs have STUNK elsewhere, but were PB QBs with Shanny, and consistent visitors to the playoffs. Really, the level of ignorance in your claims is trully stupefying.

PS Also consider EVERY other OFFENCIVE player that has performed with and sans Shanny's tutelage. The only one that got something would be Sharpe, but his numbers still looked better under Shanny (in fact one of the record breaking games for [Edit:wrong name] Sharpe came after he left Baltimore and played for Shanny).

The funny thing is, you guys think you sound more intelligent because of your "insight" that is able to transcend team allegiance, yet your statements just merely betray your hate, and superficial knowledge of the game.

You sound like an angry, irritated version of Yoda.

I don't hate the Broncos or Mike Shannahan. I think he has been a damn good coach, however the man has made many mistakes in the last 5-10 years and that has cost the Broncos. They have steadily gotten worse as the years have gone on.

Bronco Jamus
04-30-2008, 05:02 PM
Steadily gotten worse we have not.

:)

Northman
04-30-2008, 05:04 PM
Well, I guess I would generally agree that the SB Champ teams of the 90s were probably deeper and better than those of this decade, but I'd bet that it has more to to with Free Agency and salary cap than the quality of QBs.



Bingo. Right now the only team defying that logic is the New England Patriots. But they have one major thing going for them. A future HOF QB. But they also have a dark cloud hanging over them after this cheating scandle. Never the less, its all about setting your team up right, staying healthy, and making the necessary run in the playoffs to achieve that goal. Pitt did it with a second year Qb. But they also had a coach who had been there for 10 years and made a great run at the right time. They were just that much better than us that particular year. Had Denver made the SB and won/lost this wouldnt even be a discussion. And it shouldnt be a discussion as those kinds of things happen. Now, we are rebuilding to try and get back to that status. But its not going to happen overnight.

stugotsII
04-30-2008, 05:13 PM
Steadily gotten worse we have not.

:)

2007-7-9-No playoffs
2006-9-7-No playoffs
2005-13-3-1 playoff win, 1 embarrassing home loss to Pittsburgh

The data doesn't lie. Over the last three years Denver has gotten worse.

Inkana7
04-30-2008, 05:18 PM
The bottom line is, anyone who wants Shanahan to leave in the middle of Cutler's development is insane. Bitch and moan all you want, but Shanahan develops QBs. Ask Elway, ask Steve Young. Ask Jake for all I care. Shanahan and Cutler WILL win a Super Bowl together. I guarentee it.

We're going through a rebuilding period right now. Face it. We're not going to be in the AFC Elite for at least two years. Personally, I think Pat and Mike are putting the Franchise in the right direction towards a Championship. In a few years, our offense could be on the level of those 96-98 teams. And our defense cannot be any worse than it was last year, and we still ranked 19th in the league.

Patience. This is a work in progress, but it will be beautiful in two years, if everything goes right.

USMCBladerunner
04-30-2008, 05:24 PM
Bingo. Right now the only team defying that logic is the New England Patriots. But they have one major thing going for them. A future HOF QB. But they also have a dark cloud hanging over them after this cheating scandle. Never the less, its all about setting your team up right, staying healthy, and making the necessary run in the playoffs to achieve that goal. Pitt did it with a second year Qb. But they also had a coach who had been there for 10 years and made a great run at the right time. They were just that much better than us that particular year. Had Denver made the SB and won/lost this wouldnt even be a discussion. And it shouldnt be a discussion as those kinds of things happen. Now, we are rebuilding to try and get back to that status. But its not going to happen overnight.

Agreed on all fronts, and in the context of recent years, I would add the factor of playoff matchups. I don't think it is a coincidence that Pittsburgh got to and won the SB without playing NE. Similarly, Denver advanced by not having to play Indy, and got to play NE who they, paradoxically, seem to match up well against. It took Indy a long time to figure out how to beat NE (even then it took HFA and a hell of a comeback) and they still can't beat Sandy Eggo. All told, Denver's lack of playoff success isn't because they gag on it, it's because they CAN"T beat Indy...well, unless you are NE, Pitt, or San Diego, welcome to the club.

Northman
04-30-2008, 05:26 PM
Agreed on all fronts, and in the context of recent years, I would add the factor of playoff matchups. I don't think it is a coincidence that Pittsburgh got to and won the SB without playing NE. Similarly, Denver advanced by not having to play Indy, and got to play NE who they, paradoxically, seem to match up well against. It took Indy a long time to figure out how to beat NE (even then it took HFA and a hell of a comeback) and they still can't beat Sandy Eggo. All told, Denver's lack of playoff success isn't because they gag on it, it's because they CAN"T beat Indy...well, unless you are NE, Pitt, or San Diego, welcome to the club.

Exactly.

bowtown
04-30-2008, 05:42 PM
The only thing Shanny is even GOOD at is possibly OC, and even that is in doubt.

Most people in Denver that have been around awhile realize Shanny is an overrrated, blowhard, bag of wind.

Didn't realize you were so tied in to the pulse of long-time Denver residents. Don't remember you coming by my house to ask me yet.

USMCBladerunner
04-30-2008, 05:44 PM
2007-7-9-No playoffs
2006-9-7-No playoffs
2005-13-3-1 playoff win, 1 embarrassing home loss to Pittsburgh

The data doesn't lie. Over the last three years Denver has gotten worse.

This is self-evident. What is under debate is whether this three year trend, which started at the third highest point a team can start from in the NFL, and involved drafting and starting a rookie QB, is worthy of a coaching change at this time. I contend it isn't.

Denver trended up with Elway (culminating in 2 SBs) for 4 years when Shanny arrived, then they trended down for what 3/4 years, then back up (culminating in AFCC loss) for 3, now down for 2...I'm not yet sure this is a sign of ineffective coaching. It looks like a cycle that is pretty tightly tied to QB play. Being Cutler's third year, I'd expect the trend to head up this year or next.

Here's where you and I probably agree though. I don't buy into the changes in defensive corrdinator and defensive personnel as mitigating circumstances. Those are squarely on Shanahan and made last year far more painful than it needed to be. That being said, I don't think that these guffaws really made much of a difference in terms of making or breaking the team last year. It made many losses more lopsided than they could have been, and it added a loss or two (Chicago), but the team was treading water regardless IMO. It remains to be seen if going back to the old system of heavy blitzing and DT penetration will help, so this one may still be a mess.

BMarsh615
04-30-2008, 06:02 PM
Is it time for Mike Shanahan to go?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this some kind of joke? Is it just a bad dream? Is Mike Shanahan really trying to turn the Denver Broncos into the Cincinnati Bengals?
Shanny had a few bad drafts but Kubiak followed Shanny here from San Francisco. We have a young quarterback and a COMPLETELY different offensive line, and defense. We are a young team. Shanny was coaching a veteran team. Are you crazy??? WE WENT 7-9 LAST YEAR. Not 4-12 or 1-15. WE ARE REBUILDING AND STILL REMAIN COMPETITIVE. Who the heck would you want coaching this team?? Norv Turner? Get out of here dude. Kubiak was great but he was mainly a quarterbacks coach. Shanny is still the best coach in the NFL and the last 3 drafts were very good in my opinion.
Cutler, Marshall, DOOM, and Scheffler in 06. 07's draft was pretty much D-Lineman, and 08's Draft was fantastic.
YOU Can start crying when we go 4-12 we arent that far off from the playoffs if not this year definitely next year, and you are a fool if you think otherwise.
We are in better shape than the Texans are we have Jay Cutler, they have Matt Schaub.

All we need is another running back we were 9th in rushing yards last year but 20th in rushing touchdowns that has to change.
Did you know we were 4th in the league in offensive efficiency?
http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL+Statistics/Team+Efficiency/2007/finaleffc.htm

Top 5 Teams in Offensive Efficiency
1. New England - Brady
2. Green Bay - Favre
3. Dallas - Romo
4. Denver - Cutler
5. Indianapolis - Manning

That is pretty good if you ask me, if you consider the fact we had a 24 YEAR OLD QB starting for us!

Bronx33
04-30-2008, 06:11 PM
2007-7-9-No playoffs
2006-9-7-No playoffs
2005-13-3-1 playoff win, 1 embarrassing home loss to Pittsburgh

The data doesn't lie. Over the last three years Denver has gotten worse.


Now post all the winning seasons and playoff appearances and your right the data doesn't lie. :approve:

colonelbeef
04-30-2008, 06:30 PM
Shanny had a few bad drafts but Kubiak followed Shanny here from San Francisco. We have a young quarterback and a COMPLETELY different offensive line, and defense. We are a young team. Shanny was coaching a veteran team. Are you crazy??? WE WENT 7-9 LAST YEAR. Not 4-12 or 1-15. WE ARE REBUILDING AND STILL REMAIN COMPETITIVE. Who the heck would you want coaching this team?? Norv Turner? Get out of here dude. Kubiak was great but he was mainly a quarterbacks coach. Shanny is still the best coach in the NFL and the last 3 drafts were very good in my opinion.
Cutler, Marshall, DOOM, and Scheffler in 06. 07's draft was pretty much D-Lineman, and 08's Draft was fantastic.
YOU Can start crying when we go 4-12 we arent that far off from the playoffs if not this year definitely next year, and you are a fool if you think otherwise.
We are in better shape than the Texans are we have Jay Cutler, they have Matt Schaub.

All we need is another running back we were 9th in rushing yards last year but 20th in rushing touchdowns that has to change.
Did you know we were 4th in the league in offensive efficiency?
http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL+Statistics/Team+Efficiency/2007/finaleffc.htm

Top 5 Teams in Offensive Efficiency
1. New England - Brady
2. Green Bay - Favre
3. Dallas - Romo
4. Denver - Cutler
5. Indianapolis - Manning

That is pretty good if you ask me, if you consider the fact we had a 24 YEAR OLD QB starting for us!

This needs to be repeated again and again. Somebody earlier said that I was a sheep for believing in the organization as is. I contend that the sheep are the ones calling for Shanahan to step down; the ones who cannot see the big picture. The ones with knee jerk reactions, the ones who point to "last year" as the be all end all for Mike Shanahan's coaching and FO career. some of you who are now praising Don Shula would have run him out of town by 86.

Funny how he gets killed for a few questionable drafts, yet nobody on here seems to be complaining about 2006 or 2007. 2005 would have gone down as a good draft as well had it not been for Darrent Williams' death. I think 2008 was the capper, the perfect compliment to the 2 prior drafts.

Again, I can't wait to force feed some of you crow this season. Looking forward to it.

Shanahan- HC of the Broncos for life

TonyR
04-30-2008, 06:32 PM
Shanny is still the best coach in the NFL and the last 3 drafts were very good in my opinion.
Cutler, Marshall, DOOM, and Scheffler in 06. 07's draft was pretty much D-Lineman, and 08's Draft was fantastic.
YOU Can start crying when we go 4-12 we arent that far off from the playoffs if not this year definitely next year, and you are a fool if you think otherwise.
We are in better shape than the Texans are we have Jay Cutler, they have Matt Schaub.

All we need is another running back we were 9th in rushing yards last year but 20th in rushing touchdowns that has to change.


I hope you're right, but we have very little proof that '07's draft was "very good", and even less proof that this year's draft was "fantastic". And while it's possible we're in "better shape" than the Texans, remember that they kicked our azz last season. Not sure how the Texans are relevant anyway. I hope I am a fool and that we are close to being a playoff team, but right now I think there are a lot of questions to be answered.

stugotsII
04-30-2008, 06:36 PM
Now post all the winning seasons and playoff appearances and your right the data doesn't lie. :approve:

What has he done for us lately? That's the point. The trend is going down, not up. I hope he turns it around. but he has shown nothing to prove to me that he can or more importantly wants to do it.

Northman
04-30-2008, 06:40 PM
What has he done for us lately? That's the point. The trend is going down, not up. I hope he turns it around. but he has shown nothing to prove to me that he can or more importantly wants to do it.

Well, lets rewind a little bit. Following the AFCG loss to Pitt what would you have done with the team in the offseason? Clearly, we had some defensive problems with a QB who was average at best so what would have been your answer there? And im not trying to be sarcastic or an ass im seriously wondering what your theory would be in that same situation.

bowtown
04-30-2008, 06:44 PM
but he has shown nothing to prove to me that he can or more importantly wants to do it.

Please explain to me how Shanahan has proven to you that he does not want to win. By overpaying for free agents every year? By retooling his coaching staff all the time? I understand people trying to make the argument that Shanhan doesn't have the right strategy to be able to win... but to actually say he doesn't want to win... not even Wolf and Teluride are that dumb.

TonyR
04-30-2008, 06:50 PM
Ok - it definitely should have been better. However, to describe every one of those years other then 2006 as a "train wreck" is over the top.


2000: Five of eight were still playing significant time in the NFL as of late as last year. Deltha certainly had his issues here - but has played 9 years in the NFL and been to the pro-bowl a couple of times. Ian Gold was still starting for us last year (even if it was a year or two too long). Complain all you want about the ultimate value we got for these players - it was not a failure in drafting.
2001: Certified train wreck
2002: Lelie was the classic failure. But, Portis got us Champ - so that alone makes this a successful draft. Sam Brandon and Putz played for the Broncos for several years.
2003: Basically another train wreck. We got 1/2 of Bly with this draft and essentially nothing else.
2004: DJ Williams is a stud who's been completely misused for all but his rookie year. Tatum Bell was the other half of Bly. Not that Bly is "all that" but he is probably near the top of the league in terms of #2 corners. So, not a great draft top to bottom but definitely ok value out of #1 and #2 and if DJ can become the player he looked like his rookie year this could be even stronger. However, definitley not a train wreck.
2005: Darrent was definite quality but was shot dead. Paymah and Foxworth are still on the roster and contributting (although Paymah will have tough road to hoe this year to make the team). Chris Myers started last year and netted an additional 6th round pick this year. Other then the weird and stupid experiment w/ Clarett this was a good draft - definitely not a train wreck.


So, our drafting could have been better. We did totally waste two complete draft classes. 15 of the 26 players in the non-train wreck drafts have had significant playing time us although (other then Champ for Portis - no super stars). With those two drafts included it's 15 of 40.

Anyway, while it's popular to say our drafting is abysmal and it's obvious we could have done better, they have not all been train wrecks. Look anywhere in the league. It's a rare occurance on any team where the can look back across five or six draft classes and see significant contribution top to bottom. The Hershall Walker built Dallas Cowboys and the 49's from the 1980's may be the best two examples I can think of. New England has done well - few other teams can say they have done very well and a number have done worse.

I suppose "train wreck" is "over the top" for a couple of those 6 drafts, but probably not for the 6 combined. You'd like to think you'd have about 1 starter and 1 additional contributor on average per draft, which means we should have about 12 players on the team from those 6 drafts. The reality is going into this season we have 3 players, one of which is a starter, and all from '04 and '05 (granted, it would be 4 players without the Darrent Williams tragedy). And this out of 50 total players selected. You just can't strike out that many times and stay competitive with organizations like New England, San Diego, Indy, and the NYG over the long term. Hopefully the 2006 draft reverses this trend, but the jury is not only still out, it's sequestered and deliberating.

NFLBRONCO
04-30-2008, 06:54 PM
Is Shanny one of the best coaches: YES
Does Shanny want to win: YES
Does Shanny work hard: YES

Is Shanny a good evalutor of talent: NO imo one of the worst in NFL
Can he rebuild a team from ground up without changing his way of building team to a (constant 11+ win team yearly): NO right now I don't believe he can. This is why we might need a new HC with the present shape of team we'll see.

elsid13
04-30-2008, 06:58 PM
To win the league you need a franchise QB that can make plays on 3rd down and fourth qtr. Since Elway has retired we had SOB, Plummer and load of crap. Cutler is now in place to be that franchise QB.

Also how many game last year kind of go our way we could ended up 9-7?

OABB
04-30-2008, 06:58 PM
when we start winning again, I want this thread bumped, and all the naysayers criticized and pointed out repeatedly.

They wear the mark of the beast now, and don't deserve to celebrate with real fans. And when they try to weasel back in to our good graces, this thread is to be a recorded reminder of why they aren't allowed to celebrate.

It is time to rally around our team or go root for someone elses. I am sick of this same stupid argument over and over.

I am a broncos fan, and I believe THIS COACH and this team will return to prominence. I stand by that, and when they do, I will be one of the few who will be allowed to enjoy it with my friends who aren't ridiculously stupid or over the top whiney-ass bitches. whose with me?

Northman
04-30-2008, 07:03 PM
They wear the mark of the beast now, and don't deserve to celebrate with real fans.

See, to me its not about them being fans. They have a right to be concerned s the team is struggling to regain its winning attitude. But, i just think their arguements are flawed because they arent taking in account all the other things of the game that play into our struggles. Whether its taking chances on risky free agents or injuries or whatever. I cant ever remember where injuries have plagued us like they have the last few years. We just cant seem to overcome them at crucial times. But, they have a right to be concerned although i feel its misguided.

OABB
04-30-2008, 07:09 PM
See, to me its not about them being fans. They have a right to be concerned s the team is struggling to regain its winning attitude. But, i just think their arguements are flawed because they arent taking in account all the other things of the game that play into our struggles. Whether its taking chances on risky free agents or injuries or whatever. I cant ever remember where injuries have plagued us like they have the last few years. We just cant seem to overcome them at crucial times. But, they have a right to be concerned although i feel its misguided.

agreed to some degree, but WE AREN"T the raider's or chiefs...we are one of the best ran and coached franchise in the nfl! Being down on your team for mistakes is one thing, but two years removed form an afccg, a VERY VERY successful rebuild, and people bitch like this? are you kidding me?

that, my friend, is insanity. two more years of this, and maybe I will start to wonder, but to blatantly ignore history, and worse, to create revisionist history is not the sign of a real fan.

USMCBladerunner
04-30-2008, 07:12 PM
when we start winning again, I want this thread bumped, and all the naysayers criticized and pointed out repeatedly.

They wear the mark of the beast now, and don't deserve to celebrate with real fans. And when they try to weasel back in to our good graces, this thread is to be a recorded reminder of why they aren't allowed to celebrate.

It is time to rally around our team or go root for someone elses. I am sick of this same stupid argument over and over.

I am a broncos fan, and I believe THIS COACH and this team will return to prominence. I stand by that, and when they do, I will be one of the few who will be allowed to enjoy it with my friends who aren't ridiculously stupid or over the top whiney-ass b****es. whose with me?

sorry bud...I would never call out a poster as something less than a real fan, just because they think the team is heading down the tubes...I don't agree with them, and I think many of their arguments are emotional and reactionary, but I still believe that they are Bronco fans...most of the naysayers hope they are wrong, and that's why they are fans...liking the Broncos does not = liking Shanahan any more than it means liking Nate Jackson...I happen to think Shanny is good to go and Nate is teats on a bull, but I'm down for the Broncos regardless.

Northman
04-30-2008, 07:13 PM
agreed to some degree, but WE AREN"T the raider's or chiefs...we are one of the best ran and coached franchise in the nfl! Being down on your team for mistakes is one thing, but two years removed form an afccg, a VERY VERY successful rebuild, and people b**** like this? are you kidding me?

that, my friend, is insanity. two more years of this, and maybe I will start to wonder, but to blatantly ignore history, and worse, to create revisionist history is not the sign of a real fan.

Absolutely agree.

BMarsh615
04-30-2008, 07:15 PM
To win the league you need a franchise QB that can make plays on 3rd down and fourth qtr. Since Elway has retired we had SOB, Plummer and load of crap. Cutler is now in place to be that franchise QB.

Also how many game last year kind of go our way we could ended up 9-7?

Interesting stat from yahoo's situational stats
Jay Cutler 3rd Down Passing statistics.
QB Rating 92.1
Comp 73/125 58.4%
Avg 7.2
TD 8
Int 3

Bronx33
04-30-2008, 07:24 PM
What has he done for us lately? That's the point. The trend is going down, not up. I hope he turns it around. but he has shown nothing to prove to me that he can or more importantly wants to do it.

3 sub par years and you want to throw in the towel? i don't know about you but i do not want to go back to the dark ages like the raiders did or where the cardinals have been for years it's just wayyyyyyy to early for this kinda talk IMO.

Popps
04-30-2008, 07:38 PM
Yeah, because Belicheat had everything to do with that franchise picking a HOF QB, and I'm sure their GM was thinking exactly that when he drafter pretty boy in the 6th. BTW, what has Belicheat done without a HOF, NOTHING. For that matter, has he been able to win a SB despite having the "GREATEST OFFENCE AND TEAM" on earth without cheating? No need to answer.

Look, Shanahan calls all the shots. If you want to call all of the shots, then you're going to take the blame when things go wrong.

Say what you want about the Patriots, they won... won... took a little time off to re-load years off, and then were right back at it again. You also may recall them having a little success when Parcells was there.

So, I'm not sure what your point is. Teams need good players to win? Excellent. Thanks. Go ahead and forward that info to Mike Shanahan... maybe before he takes the next George Foster in the first round or signs the next bus full of Cleveland Browns rejects.

Y
BTW, how was Denver looking and Elway's career looking right before Shanny came to Denver?

Oh, so more new information... Mike Shanahan did good things when he first got to Denver?

Fascinating.

Too bad the other nine years weren't so productive.

hing was happening before Shanny showed up.

LOL

Yea, the 49ers owe it all to Mike Shanahan. Good point. They really didn't do much before Young. ROFL!

Conversely, NOTHING was happening with Belicheat until pretty boy showed up.

Umm.... you do understand he got to New England in 2000, right?

What, you going to blame the guy for starting the better QB? You may (or probably not, I'm guessing) recall him kicking Kosar to the curb in favor of Testaverde as a starter, and taking the Browns to the playoffs under almost the exact same situation. You're going to bash a guy for making the correct call under controversial circumstances?

Again, if there's a point... feel free to make it.

So which coach is relying on a HOF QB to make his stamp and which coach is coaching his QB and offence to reach the promised land?

Well, according to the way you've laid things out, Belichick's 4 Superbowl appearances are all thanks to Tom Brady. I can only assume the same must be true for Shanahan. That's your logic, anyway. Tom Brady is the only member of that Patriots team with any talent.... right? ****, Tom Brady probably hand-picked every position and coached them to those four Superbowls, as well.


I only used the Patriots as a recent example of how a team puts itself in contention and stays there. A couple of SBs in the late 90s is great. A decade later, and you've one 1 playoff game? Not so great.


But, hey... let's talk about what Mike Shanahan did back when people were still using dial-up modems and wearing stone-washed jeans.

Popps
04-30-2008, 07:42 PM
3 sub par years and you want to throw in the towel? .

What about the 5 years prior to our 1 playoff win?

I think most rational people are taking a wait and see approach about this year, but if it's another throw-away like the last two... you're talking about one playoff win sandwiched in the middle of 9 without a playoff win.... or, a **** sandwich.

Who says a new coach means "the dark ages," anyway? Did I miss that memo?

Bronx33
04-30-2008, 07:48 PM
What about the 5 years prior to our 1 playoff win?

I think most rational people are taking a wait and see approach about this year, but if it's another throw-away like the last two... you're talking about one playoff win sandwiched in the middle of 9 without a playoff win.... or, a **** sandwich.

Who says a new coach means "the dark ages," anyway? Did I miss that memo?

Some folks have patience i guess and iam going to say you're not one of them. :clown:

Bronx33
04-30-2008, 07:49 PM
Can we all say (alot) has to come together for a team to go the distance it's not just a coach that's just one piece in a huge puzzle and when shanahan had the personnel he went to the big dance or deep into the playoffs so lets be fair when placing blame for subpar seasons lets just think what would have happen had jake plummer not melted down in the AFC championship game (that was out of mikes hands) and had we went to the SB win or lose (THIS THREAD WOULDN'T EVEN BE HERE) point is the stars have to align and it isn't easy.

TonyR
04-30-2008, 07:59 PM
agreed to some degree, but WE AREN"T the raider's or chiefs...we are one of the best ran and coached franchise in the nfl! Being down on your team for mistakes is one thing, but two years removed form an afccg, a VERY VERY successful rebuild, and people b**** like this? are you kidding me?

that, my friend, is insanity. two more years of this, and maybe I will start to wonder, but to blatantly ignore history, and worse, to create revisionist history is not the sign of a real fan.

You keep mentioning the Raiders and Chiefs. You're right, we're not them, but we're also not the teams that made the playoffs last year. Do you remember what San Diego did to us twice? Do you remember what Detroit did to us? We were overwhelmed in those three games. Our lack of talent was exposed. Being a huge, life long fan of this team I HATE feeling the way I did after those games. And those games happened because of personnel mistakes, and there's really one person who is responsible and accountable for this. The Bates hiring was a debacle. Having to find players in the middle of the season from the scrap heap after cutting starters is a debacle.

I think he should get two more seasons to prove he knows what he's doing. And then it's time for a GM responsible for personnel with or without Shanahan as coach. And personnally I'd prefer that he stays because I like him as a coach.

Bronco_Beerslug
04-30-2008, 08:00 PM
Precisely. Beerslug and the rest of the morons clamoring for his replacement haven't an idea as to how much of an asset Mike Shanahan is to the Denver Broncos organization. Your reading comprehension sucks. Where did I "clamor" for Shanahan's replacement? I just pointed out how much of a leg hopper you were.

TonyR
04-30-2008, 08:01 PM
Can we all say (alot) has to come together for a team to go the distance it's not just a coach that's just one piece in a huge puzzle and when shanahan had the personnel he went to the big dance or deep into the playoffs so lets be fair when placing blame for subpar seasons lets just think what would have happen had jake plummer not melted down in the AFC championship game (that was out of mikes hands) and had we went to the SB win or lose (THIS THREAD WOULDN'T EVEN BE HERE) point is the stars have to align and it isn't easy.

Please try using some punctuation. I'm out of breath from reading that! :thumbsup:

Bronx33
04-30-2008, 08:04 PM
Please try using some punctuation. I'm out of breath from reading that! :thumbsup:


it's broke

stugotsII
04-30-2008, 08:07 PM
I'd like to see Shanny turn things around. I love what he has done in the past for Denver and their fans.

I simply doubt his ability to do so based on what he has done in the last 10 years. 1 trip to an AFC title game really isn't all that great in my book. Especially for a team that has a long and storied playoff history.

It just seems like the well is drying up.

Merlin
04-30-2008, 08:07 PM
What is under debate is whether this three year trend...
Don't validate his grade one arithmetic skills. The team has been in a down hill slide for two years. And what happened two years ago? The team made a transition to its QB and team of the future...You mean we digressed when we put a rookie as a leader with a bunch of young guns (not even considering the loss of critical players to injury) as supporting cast??? Do tell, how can that be possibly be true? Everyone knows that when a team makes its transition into its next generation of players they should still rule the roost. BTW, please ignore the fact that with all its deficiencies, Denver still kicked Pitt$ ass, and gave GB all it could handle...yes that would be the GB that gave the eventual SB champions all they could handle in the playoffs.

Since we are clearly in a trend to self destruction how about a simple bet. Everyone on this thread that believes we are in a path to destruction should be certain that we will have a worse season this year. Thus among us who drink too much Kool-aid and are blinded by Shanny BS believe otherwise. How about the minute Denver plays at or above 500 avg you stay quiet (no crap about that being mediocre because you geniuses claim we are digressing), and the minute Denver wins 8 games you dissapear for at least one full season. Conversely, if Denver wins less than 7, us "sheep" will dissapear for a season. How many of you are willing to take that wager? Care to have the courage of your convictions?

My guess Denver will win 10 games. What would you do then? Commit to NEVER AGAIN, no matter what happens in the future, disseminate ill comments about the FO unless is to talk about their greatness? Yes, you would have to become sickening in your love and support for Shanny, for the rest of his stay here (regardless of whether he stinks later). Any takers? By your own descriptions/assertions Denver has little or any chance of winning 6 next year.

stugotsII
04-30-2008, 08:12 PM
Don't validate his grade one arithmetic skills. The team has been in a down hill slide for two years. And what happened two years ago? The team made a transition to its QB and team of the future...You mean we digressed when we put a rookie as a leader with a bunch of young guns (not even considering the loss of critical players to injury) as supporting cast??? Do tell, how can that be possibly be true? Everyone knows that when a team makes its transition into its next generation of players they should still rule the roost. BTW, please ignore the fact that with all its deficiencies, Denver still kicked Pitt$ ass, and gave GB all it could handle...yes that would be the GB that gave the eventual SB champions all they could handle in the playoffs.

Since we are clearly in a trend to self destruction how about a simple bet. Everyone on this thread that believes we are in a path to destruction should be certain that we will have a worse season this year. Thus among us who drink too much Kool-aid and are blinded by Shanny BS believe otherwise. How about the minute Denver plays at or above 500 avg you stay quiet (no crap about that being mediocre because you geniuses claim we are digressing), and the minute Denver wins 8 games you dissapear for at least one full season. Conversely, if Denver wins less than 7, us "sheep" will dissapear for a season. How many of you are willing to take that wager? Care to have the courage of your convictions?

My guess Denver will win 10 games. What would you do then? Commit to NEVER AGAIN, no matter what happens in the future, disseminate ill comments about the FO unless is to talk about their greatness? Yes, you would have to become sickening in your love and support for Shanny, for the rest of his stay here (regardless of whether he stinks later). Any takers? By your own descriptions/assertions Denver has little or any chance of winning 6 next year.


Based on what you've seen in the last two years, what would need you to say that Denver will win 10 games this year?

Bronx33
04-30-2008, 08:14 PM
I'd like to see Shanny turn things around. I love what he has done in the past for Denver and their fans.

I simply doubt his ability to do so based on what he has done in the last 10 years. 1 trip to an AFC title game really isn't all that great in my book. Especially for a team that has a long and storied playoff history.

It just seems like the well is drying up.

Do you really think replacing a head coach is going to (turn it around)? sounds more like a roll of dice to me.

Popps
04-30-2008, 08:15 PM
Some folks have patience i guess and iam going to say you're not one of them. :clown:

Quite the contrary. I've defended Shanahan for years around here and other forums and I still love the guy. It's been a decade since we won a SB. I'd say I'm patient to even think we're better off with him for one more year.

What's the over/under on patience? Do I have to wait TWO decades before I can request my football team resumes kicking ass?

Another poo-stain season like last year, and you're going to have to be saintly to support this guy, not just patient.

stugotsII
04-30-2008, 08:15 PM
Do you really think replacing a head coach is going to (turn it around)? sounds more like a roll of dice to me.

I wouldn't say replacing Shanny is the way to go...YET.

I would say he needs to have some/most of his personel powers taken away. But if he can't get something going in a year or two, it's time for him to move on.

Popps
04-30-2008, 08:18 PM
Based on what you've seen in the last two years, what would need you to say that Denver will win 10 games this year?

-We traded for a DT with an injury situation. (sound familiar?)

-We drafted a bunch of random guys, one of which will likely have to start.

-We signed Colbert and Jackson.

-We signed Boss Bailey, a guy who hardcore Lions fans describe as (quote) ... "a great athlete who couldn't tackle his own grandmother."

Now, if that doesn't have 10 wins written all over it, I don't know what does.

Bronx33
04-30-2008, 08:19 PM
2 years is my time table.

TonyR
04-30-2008, 08:22 PM
The team has been in a down hill slide for two years. And what happened two years ago? The team made a transition to its QB and team of the future...You mean we digressed when we put a rookie as a leader with a bunch of young guns (not even considering the loss of critical players to injury) as supporting cast??? Do tell, how can that be possibly be true? Everyone knows that when a team makes its transition into its next generation of players they should still rule the roost.

So a young QB was our only problem last season? Did you step into the kitchen for a snack and beverage of choice every time our defense took the field? Did you miss the Jim Bates Experience? Or should I say, the Jim Bates Experiment? It was something to behold. And I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not certain we've improved enough on that side of the ball. In fact, I'm fairly certain that we haven't.

Northman
04-30-2008, 08:22 PM
Based on what you've seen in the last two years, what would need you to say that Denver will win 10 games this year?


Well, for me personally. If by some great chance Clady, Royal, and Robertson all step up and do what we drafted them to do than that would be a huge plus. Obviously, guys like Marshall and Henry would have to remain healthy and stay out of trouble off the field. But if all those things click and fall into place i would say we have a great chance to win 10 games. When i look at certain games last year Jax, GB, and Chicago. Those are all games that we could have won if not for certain things taking place. But, we were in each and every one of those games. And if the new players and young players step up early it could easily translate to more wins.

Spider
04-30-2008, 08:24 PM
Broncos 12-4 ........ dont like it ? kiss my big redneck ass

Northman
04-30-2008, 08:25 PM
Broncos 12-4 ........ dont like it ? kiss my big redneck ass

:rofl: :thumbs:

Bronco_Beerslug
04-30-2008, 08:29 PM
Broncos 12-4 ........ dont like it ? kiss my big redneck assHomer. :homer:

Spider
04-30-2008, 08:33 PM
Homer. :homer:

Hippie ........

Eldorado
04-30-2008, 08:36 PM
Broncos 12-4 ........ dont like it ? kiss my big redneck ass

I think I'll take the 12-4. No offense.

Spider
04-30-2008, 08:37 PM
I think I'll take the 12-4. No offense.

Dont play hard to get ...... you want me :D

Eldorado
04-30-2008, 08:44 PM
Dont play hard to get ...... you want me :D

LOL

Merlin
04-30-2008, 08:47 PM
So a young QB was our only problem last season? Did you step into the kitchen for a snack and beverage of choice every time our defense took the field?
You are right, I did forget about that debacle, but it would be quite a reach to blame Shanny for his performance. However, Shanny did try to fix things rather quickly when he saw what was happening.

I think there have been substantial changes in D, and it will be at least decent by next yr.

So, not a single taker? Figures. The cojones of 5-yr-old and the intellect of a teenager. Well, when you guys grow a pair (or at least a single), stand by your assessment, until then how about you learnt to stand by your claims.

Odysseus
04-30-2008, 08:51 PM
Please go see post #87 where I directly answered your question.

Let me say it again: I'm not arguing Shanny is a great X's and O's coach. He is. My contention is his mismanagment of player-personell that has left the team hurting for talent in many areas.

Let me say it again: After two more years (and if I was Bowlen) of no playoff wins, I'd offer Shanahan the option of remaining as HC, but stepping down as de facto GM. In other words, I'd do what the Seattle ownership did a few years back with Mike Holmgren.

If Shanahan could not live with that arrangement, I part ways with him, hire a sound GM, and let the GM then hire the coaching staff, and take care of all player personell decisions. At this point, the franchise would truly be in a complete rebuild.

Tombstone: Post #87:
If the Broncos don't start producing playoff victories by the end of 2009 season, and I was Bowlen, I'd offer Shanahan the option of continuing as the HC, but that a true GM is going to be hired to help with bringing talent in. Furthermore, that GM will have final say on all coaches who are hired.

If Shanahan says no, then I go to plan B which is to thank him very much for his long and tireless service to the Broncos, and then start looking for a GM who can take over football operations and rebuild the franchise.

And let me repeat, I'm a Shanahan supporter, I want him to succeed too. But these rather average teams that Shanahan has put together the last 10 years or so is getting old.

My question was on REPLACEMENT coaches for Shanahan. NOBODY has any ideas that make any sense. Every name brought up to date has been passed over for head coaching jobs elsewhere in the league or are out of football.

Nobody is pointing out specific changes. I am seeing obsession with this one player. How come we didn't get rid of this player. It's all poof. Blotto. nuthin. I would love to get more details than rage over one draft pick.

I don't think Shanahan is invulnerable to criticism. I don't think anybody is. I think that talk of timetables are stupid when it's clear that the man is building the team for the long haul. No more magic schemes. No more quick fix players. No more risky prison bound long shot guys. He keeps reinventing himself and that is why I enjoy watching this man work in the off season.

If you don't think Shanahan was professionally embarrassed by last season you don't know much about our coach.

USMCBladerunner
04-30-2008, 08:58 PM
Quite the contrary. I've defended Shanahan for years around here and other forums and I still love the guy. It's been a decade since we won a SB. I'd say I'm patient to even think we're better off with him for one more year.

What's the over/under on patience? Do I have to wait TWO decades before I can request my football team resumes kicking ass?

Another poo-stain season like last year, and you're going to have to be saintly to support this guy, not just patient.

I understand the sentiment, but other than Pats, Indy, and Pittsburgh (all in our conference), I'm not sure that anyone else in the NFL would scratch your itch, and it sounds like you would have fired Cower long before he got that chance. Apparently, you think you can find a coach that has a better chance than Shanahan does at this point of moving Denver up into the that top tier. Who do you have in mind? Change for the sake of change isn't progress.

You see 10 years between Super Bowls as a travesty. I don't like it, but I view playoff appearances and regular season success with Griese and Plummer as accomplishment. I see drafting Cutler as a bold move that clearly is an attempt to get you what you (and we all) want. I understand being unsatisfied with the past decade, but it was still a successful period for the team, one that could validate optimism in Shanahan, just as much as pessimism.

I get the arguments on D, but I think they are immaterial given the QB swap and injury situation Denver has had the past two years. That being said, I hope we righted ourselves after last season's disaster. Like you, I'm not convinced or even that optimistic. But I am hopeful.

USMCBladerunner
04-30-2008, 09:11 PM
You keep mentioning the Raiders and Chiefs. You're right, we're not them, but we're also not the teams that made the playoffs last year. Do you remember what San Diego did to us twice? Do you remember what Detroit did to us? We were overwhelmed in those three games. Our lack of talent was exposed. Being a huge, life long fan of this team I HATE feeling the way I did after those games. And those games happened because of personnel mistakes, and there's really one person who is responsible and accountable for this. The Bates hiring was a debacle. Having to find players in the middle of the season from the scrap heap after cutting starters is a debacle.

I think he should get two more seasons to prove he knows what he's doing. And then it's time for a GM responsible for personnel with or without Shanahan as coach. And personnally I'd prefer that he stays because I like him as a coach.

I agree with most of this. The biggest disappointment in those games you mentioned (Det and SD) was not the disparity in talent (though in SD's case, it is alarming), but in the lack of effort. I hadn't seen a Denver team give up like that in years or maybe ever. It was embarrassing and disgusting. I think this draft was angled with team character in mind.

The Bates experiment was a total disaster, no denying it. We scrapped it after what 6 weeks? The only real damage done there IMO was the loss of Garrard Warren, and even that isn't the end of the world (though it is significant). Hopefully, we can get back on track with the D. I'm worried though.

I have no problems with the 2 year time table. If Denver doesn't turn this corner in that time frame, it will have been because the new lines and Cutler weren't the answer and at that point you may as well blow it up with a new coach. I seriously doubt that this will happen though.

TheChamp24
04-30-2008, 10:19 PM
I will admit, that I will be in total shock if we are a playoff team in January. Just too many holes, too many question marks. I just want to see progress from last year, see Moss, Crowder, Thomas, Cutler, Marshall, Clady, Harris, Kuper, DJ, Abdullah, I want to see them improve to give me hopes for 2009.

Popps
04-30-2008, 10:36 PM
I understand the sentiment, but other than Pats, Indy, and Pittsburgh (all in our conference), I'm not sure that anyone else in the NFL would scratch your itch, and it sounds like you would have fired Cower long before he got that chance. ful.

Why? Cower was coach of the year as a rookie, made a SB in 1995, won 7 division titles, took his team to over 20 playoff games and made another SB in 05. The steelers were 23-8 in 01 and 02, had an off year in 03, then 26-6 including a SB win in 04 05.

When exactly would I have fired him? Do you honestly believe that the Broncos have been a better team than the Steelers over the past 10 years?

Apparently, you think you can find a coach that has a better chance than Shanahan does at this point of moving Denver up into the that top tier. .

That's not my job. That's the management's job, and yes... any business needs proper leadership. If Shanahan was a CEO of a major corporation, investors would be calling for his head... not saying we should keep him on because we "hope" the business improves.

. Who do you have in mind? Change for the sake of change isn't progress.

Sometimes it is. Sometimes an organization needs to refresh its leadership.
Again, as for who that replacement would be, that's not my job. But to answer your question, no... I do not believe our SB hopes live and die with Mike Shanahan alone. I believe there are other human beings walking the earth who could bring us a title. It's not my job to find that person.

I Like you, I'm not convinced or even that optimistic. But I am hopeful.

I'm hopeful, but probably not optimistic. That doesn't make me or anyone else less of a fan. I hate losing and I hate seeing my team shoved around every Sunday. Those of us who choose to voice that frustration and perhaps question leadership are not lesser fans.

Again, I love what Shanahan has done. I hope he kicks ass this year, but if he doesn't... it's time to start looking.

azbroncfan
04-30-2008, 11:08 PM
Wade ďthe bumĒ Phillips

Wade had a part in the SB teams and few fans give him credit.

Odysseus
04-30-2008, 11:14 PM
This team hasn't been right since the San Francisco player died at Invesco on August 20th the year before Darrent Williams was killed. The team's reaction during the draft was statement enough for me. No more bull****.

USMCBladerunner
04-30-2008, 11:15 PM
Why? Cower was coach of the year as a rookie, made a SB in 1995, won 7 division titles, took his team to over 20 playoff games and made another SB in 05. The steelers were 23-8 in 01 and 02, had an off year in 03, then 26-6 including a SB win in 04 05.

When exactly would I have fired him? Do you honestly believe that the Broncos have been a better team than the Steelers over the past 10 years?



Ok, but Division titles for the Steelers in the past 10 years is no kind of stat given their division. Nevertheless, we'll add Cower to the short list of guys you wouldn't fire. And no I don't believe the Broncos have been a better team than the Steelers over the past 10 years, nor the Pats, Colts, Eagles, and...well now I'm running out of teams.

That's not my job. That's the management's job, and yes... any business needs proper leadership. If Shanahan was a CEO of a major corporation, investors would be calling for his head... not saying we should keep him on because we "hope" the business improves.

Sometimes it is. Sometimes an organization needs to refresh its leadership.
Again, as for who that replacement would be, that's not my job. But to answer your question, no... I do not believe our SB hopes live and die with Mike Shanahan alone. I believe there are other human beings walking the earth who could bring us a title. It's not my job to find that person.

This is pretty much a cop out. It makes no sense to fire a guy unless you are confident you can do better with someone else. I'm not asking you to be a GM of an NFL franchise, but you have to have some sense of who would be better or you wouldn't be so down on Shanny. And no, change for the sake of change doesn't equal progress. Change for the sake of progress does, but that requires alternatives, but you don't seem to have any. Even I can think of a few good options, Kubiak is one, stealing Jason Garrett is another, I think Jax is building a success model that could be tapped into, Jim Mora Jr is probably worthy of another look (without the smelling salts of course). I wasn't asking to imply that there are no good options, I was actually asking who you had in mind. You are right that as a fan it isn't your job, but given the results of the NLF's coaching rotisseries, I would be circumspect in calling for the firing of a successful NFL coach.

I agree that "hope" isn't a strategy, but I don't think the Broncos are relying on it. Grabbing Cutler was bold and indicated a major shift of course. It's rare that drafting and starting rookies doesn't result in a downturn before it gets better.

I'm hopeful, but probably not optimistic. That doesn't make me or anyone else less of a fan. I hate losing and I hate seeing my team shoved around every Sunday. Those of us who choose to voice that frustration and perhaps question leadership are not lesser fans.

Again, I love what Shanahan has done. I hope he kicks ass this year, but if he doesn't... it's time to start looking.

I never said anything about being less of a fan. In fact, I have backed you and the other Shanahan detractors as full on fans in this very thread, so please don't put words in my mouth.

I've also said that I think there is a timetable on Shanahan's viability in Denver pending poor results, but I put it at 2 seasons instead of 1. It would depend on the severity and circumstances of the performances I imagine as well.

Popps
05-01-2008, 12:34 AM
This is pretty much a cop out. It makes no sense to fire a guy unless you are confident you can do better with someone else. I'm not asking you to be a GM of an NFL franchise, but you have to have some sense of who would be better or you wouldn't be so down on Shanny. .

It's not a cop out. If your car is old and you need to replace it, it's not a cop out to do a little homework and find a new one, and it's silly to think that there's no car that can ever replace yours, just because you don't know which one you're going to buy yet.

Bad analogy, maybe... but the point remains. If a part is broken, you fix it with one that isn't, and if you don't know which part that will be... you figure it out.

Scan the assistants, out of work coaches, college coaches, whatever. Teams do it all the time. All great coaches start somewhere. Why not in Denver.

I think it's a cop out to say that we have to stick with the guy we have because "there must not be any other options." That's nonsense.

Find someone.

Tombstone RJ
05-01-2008, 12:37 AM
Don't validate his grade one arithmetic skills. The team has been in a down hill slide for two years. And what happened two years ago? The team made a transition to its QB and team of the future...You mean we digressed when we put a rookie as a leader with a bunch of young guns (not even considering the loss of critical players to injury) as supporting cast??? Do tell, how can that be possibly be true? Everyone knows that when a team makes its transition into its next generation of players they should still rule the roost. BTW, please ignore the fact that with all its deficiencies, Denver still kicked Pitt$ ass, and gave GB all it could handle...yes that would be the GB that gave the eventual SB champions all they could handle in the playoffs.

Since we are clearly in a trend to self destruction how about a simple bet. Everyone on this thread that believes we are in a path to destruction should be certain that we will have a worse season this year. Thus among us who drink too much Kool-aid and are blinded by Shanny BS believe otherwise. How about the minute Denver plays at or above 500 avg you stay quiet (no crap about that being mediocre because you geniuses claim we are digressing), and the minute Denver wins 8 games you dissapear for at least one full season. Conversely, if Denver wins less than 7, us "sheep" will dissapear for a season. How many of you are willing to take that wager? Care to have the courage of your convictions?

My guess Denver will win 10 games. What would you do then? Commit to NEVER AGAIN, no matter what happens in the future, disseminate ill comments about the FO unless is to talk about their greatness? Yes, you would have to become sickening in your love and support for Shanny, for the rest of his stay here (regardless of whether he stinks later). Any takers? By your own descriptions/assertions Denver has little or any chance of winning 6 next year.

Good God Man, have you not understood one of my posts? Please, go back and give me a synopsis of my posts, that is, if you have the BRAIN POWER TO DO THIS!

My bet is you don't. You've conviniently ignored my posts.

summerdenver
05-01-2008, 01:13 AM
When exactly would I have fired him? Do you honestly believe that the Broncos have been a better team than the Steelers over the past 10 years?



I was curious so I did some checking on profootballreference.com and the results were a bit surprising. I calculated the the regular season wins of both teams from 1999 (i excluded elway years as if i include them broncos will obviously have a superior record).

Pitt won 78 games + 1 tie from 99-06(cowher retired in 06). We won 76 games. It all came down to the AFCG IMO. If we had won that game or referees did their job in the superbowl, our perception would be very different.

btw it is a agreed upon by everyone that Pitt had one of the best FOs and we suck at drafting. Can you imagine what shanny would have done with better drafting.? Shanahan the coach beats cowher hands down any day. you can find better gms than shanahan but for my money, the only contemporary coach i would take over him is BB.

Merlin
05-01-2008, 01:22 AM
Good God Man, have you not understood one of my posts? Please, go back and give me a synopsis of my posts, that is, if you have the BRAIN POWER TO DO THIS!
How to answer this...do you lack the grey matter to even understand who the response was to? If you lack the ability to simple understand the argument, just look who to which comment it was referring to, I'm sure it is not that difficult...give it a try.

Popps,

I don't know where to begin with your response. You dissect my statements but divorce them from their context and ignore their meaning. You totally misrepresent my comments and arguments regarding Shanny's coaching effect on Elway and Young and the corresponding offences. You rely on adolescent arguing techniques that use intellectual dishonesty to make claims and assertions that are neither implied nor supported. You can do better than that, or is your stance so intellectually wanting it must rely on red herrings?

Tombstone RJ
05-01-2008, 02:56 AM
How to answer this...do you lack the grey matter to even understand who the response was to? If you lack the ability to simple understand the argument, just look who to which comment it was referring to, I'm sure it is not that difficult...give it a try.

Popps,

I don't know where to begin with your response. You dissect my statements but divorce them from their context and ignore their meaning. You totally misrepresent my comments and arguments regarding Shanny's coaching effect on Elway and Young and the corresponding offences. You rely on adolescent arguing techniques that use intellectual dishonesty to make claims and assertions that are neither implied nor supported. You can do better than that, or is your stance so intellectually wanting it must rely on red herrings?

Again, you have ignored my posts. I've called you out, and you say "I wasn't talking to you!"

Well, talk to me son...

I'm telling eveyone here that Shanahan, the coach, is fine. However, Shanahan, the de facto GM leaves alot to be desired.

If Shanny had some better talent, yes, the Broncos could have gone alot farther these last ten years or so. However, Shanahan VP of Football Operations, has hamstrung Shanahan, the coach.

Now, who's fault is that?

Popps
05-01-2008, 03:51 AM
By your standard Popps just about every coach in the league should be fired..

That was silly to say. You didn't qualify it in any way, I'm guessing because it was so silly.


Someday you people...

You people? There's more than one of me? Awesome.

its not coaching, its personnel.

No kiddin'? Our personnel must suck, then.

Hmmm... I wonder who we should talk to about that?


The two best quarterbacks in the league are the ones who are repeat visitors to the postseason. .

Well, 4 out of those 10 years were the same QB. The rest of the winners were either decent QBs or one-hit wonders.

So, Shanahan isn't good enough to win a SB without an elite QB? Is that your point? That's what a lot of people believe... mostly Raiders fans. Maybe you people are right.

Personally, I think he's plenty good enough as a coach. I think he's got no business handling personnel at this stage, and I think he's been given plenty of time to right the ship. If he is ONLY capable of winning with an elite QB, well then he should have been out getting one and not messing with Griese and Plummer.

More likely, he's proven incapable of building a defense... and that's how the other 85% of teams out there without elite QBs win championships.

Really smart teams like the Patriots, 90s Broncos, 90s Cowboys and others actually employ a talented QB.... AND a great defense.

Shocking, isn't it?

TheReverend
05-01-2008, 07:23 AM
More likely, he's proven incapable of building a defense... and that's how the other 85% of teams out there without elite QBs win championships.

Really smart teams like the Patriots, 90s Broncos, 90s Cowboys and others actually employ a talented QB.... AND a great defense.

Shocking, isn't it?

Popps is on to something here actually!

I heard from someone on the lightrail that Mike Shanahan actually broke Al Wilson's neck with a crowbar, because he was starting to steal some of the spotlight from him. It was a tactic he had previously employed on Trevor Pryce's back, and one he's gearing up to use on Champ if he keeps playing well.

Shanahan has no clue how to build a good defense! The fact that the team was sporting the top CB in the NFL, a top 3 (at least) MLB, and a top 2 DT (top 10 DE) and lost 2/3's to injury is an indictment against his fortune telling. How dare he not know in advance and spend #1 draft picks on their replacement?

Tombstone RJ
05-01-2008, 10:08 AM
Popps is on to something here actually!

I heard from someone on the lightrail that Mike Shanahan actually broke Al Wilson's neck with a crowbar, because he was starting to steal some of the spotlight from him. It was a tactic he had previously employed on Trevor Pryce's back, and one he's gearing up to use on Champ if he keeps playing well.

Shanahan has no clue how to build a good defense! The fact that the team was sporting the top CB in the NFL, a top 3 (at least) MLB, and a top 2 DT (top 10 DE) and lost 2/3's to injury is an indictment against his fortune telling. How dare he not know in advance and spend #1 draft picks on their replacement?

Listen, I'm a big Shanny supporter, but I'm a little tired of people blaming injuries for lack of success.

From what I've read on this thread, pretty much everyone here agrees Shanahan is a great HC. I've said this myself many times. However, a great HC still wins games, even if the starting line up has injuries.

I refer here to the 2003 (maybe 2004, I can't remember the exact year) Patriots that were decimated with injuries but still managed to win the SB that year. Bilicheck put together, IMHO, one of the all time great coaching seasons in NFL history by winning it all with that particular team.

Now, lets look at that as an example of two things: 1. great coaching and 2. great player-personell decisions which allowed Bilicheck to plug in other players and still win.

Every team deals with injuries and Mike Shanahan will be the first guy to say "you can't blame lack of success on injuries."

Does a team have to have luck when it comes to injuries in order to win it all? Yep, it certainly helps.

Are lack of injuries paramount in winning a SB? No, the good teams still win.

TheReverend
05-01-2008, 10:28 AM
Listen, I'm a big Shanny supporter, but I'm a little tired of people blaming injuries for lack of success.

From what I've read on this thread, pretty much everyone here agrees Shanahan is a great HC. I've said this myself many times. However, a great HC still wins games, even if the starting line up has injuries.

I refer here to the 2003 (maybe 2004, I can't remember the exact year) Patriots that were decimated with injuries but still managed to win the SB that year. Bilicheck put together, IMHO, one of the all time great coaching seasons in NFL history by winning it all with that particular team.

Now, lets look at that as an example of two things: 1. great coaching and 2. great player-personell decisions which allowed Bilicheck to plug in other players and still win.

Every team deals with injuries and Mike Shanahan will be the first guy to say "you can't blame lack of success on injuries."

Does a team have to have luck when it comes to injuries in order to win it all? Yep, it certainly helps.

Are lack of injuries paramount in winning a SB? No, the good teams still win.

I was taking a shot at his "Shanahan can't build a great defense comment". The way some people react on this board you'd think 2008 was actually a 1-15 season. DESPITE all the injuries Denver still could've been a playoff team, so don't give me any bull**** about ANY defiencies in Mike Shanahan.

The guy inserts a rookie QB and is one SF collapse away from the playoffs.

Jay's first full season is one plagued with veteran injuries and still is a few bad bounces away going to the playoffs.

By the way... for those of you who haven't noticed... the team underwent a complete remodeling, will be HIGHLY competitive in 2008 and back to perennial post-season contention... and 7-9 was the worst you poor little babies had to endure.

Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

Odysseus
05-01-2008, 10:40 AM
Anyone who isn't angry over the past two seasons has a serious tolerance for pain because watching this team fold over the stupidest of things has been brutal. I think Shanahan is doing the right things this year....again! Surprise he brought in some solid citizens. I would understand if he brought in marginal players but our biggest contention is did we NEED the guy?

Woo Hoo! Super Bowl!

Tombstone RJ
05-01-2008, 10:42 AM
I was taking a shot at his "Shanahan can't build a great defense comment". The way some people react on this board you'd think 2008 was actually a 1-15 season. DESPITE all the injuries Denver still could've been a playoff team, so don't give me any bull**** about ANY defiencies in Mike Shanahan.

The guy inserts a rookie QB and is one SF collapse away from the playoffs.

Jay's first full season is one plagued with veteran injuries and still is a few bad bounces away going to the playoffs.

By the way... for those of you who haven't noticed... the team underwent a complete remodeling, will be HIGHLY competitive in 2008 and back to perennial post-season contention... and 7-9 was the worst you poor little babies had to endure.

Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

:spit:

Listen dude, Da Nile ain't just a river in Egypt...

Shanahan has not been able to build a great defense, period. You can sugar coat that fact all you want but it's still the truth.

On the flip side, Shanny's MO is his ability to build great offenses, and more often than not, he's been able to put points on the board pretty consistenlty.

We shall see in the next two years if these drafts and FA pick ups pan out. I want them to work! I want all these picks to become starters and for the Broncos to win the damn SB too!

But, I'm also gonna hold Shanahan directly responsible for any lack of success this team has. He's not getting a free pass because he's Mike Shanahan.

Spider
05-01-2008, 10:54 AM
Al Wilson , Trevor Pryce , Bertran Berry , Romo , D will , Mobley .......Dont know how to build a defense ? horse **** ..... But i remember when Shanny took over defensive play calling from Ray Rhodes ,Defense improved in 1 week ....

BroncoInferno
05-01-2008, 11:04 AM
-We traded for a DT with an injury situation. (sound familiar?)

Who has dealt with that issue since he came into the league and has only missed three games. Even if he is an underachiever, wouldn't you agree he's a pretty big improvement over the garbage from last season?

-We drafted a bunch of random guys, one of which will likely have to start.

Random guys? C'mon, Popps, you're smarter than to play the "no big names so they are random guys" logic, aren't you? I think at the very least this draft will improve our special teams with guys like Royal and Williams, both ST standouts in college. The pass protection will also improve. Lepsis was crap last season, so I doubt if Clady can play much worse. In fact, I'm willing to bet he'll be an upgrade over the 2007 version of Lepsis. Obviously, of nine picks a couple won't pan out, but we addressed needs pretty well and got guys who are hard workers and love football. That's a good start. I think we'll see better results than with the boom/bust type guys we've drafted in the past.

-We signed Colbert and Jackson

That gives us pretty solid depth at WR. Only two seasons ago Jackson had 10 TDs. He dropped to only 47 catches last season, but that was playing with one of the worst starting QBs in the league in Alex Smith. If he can merely duplicate that production as the #2 guy then we'll be in pretty good shape. Colbert probably rotates with Stokely as the number 3 guy. That doesn't sound too bad to me.

-We signed Boss Bailey, a guy who hardcore Lions fans describe as (quote) ... "a great athlete who couldn't tackle his own grandmother."

Look at it from this standpoint: do you prefer a trio consisting of DJ at Mike, a shot Ian Gold at WLB, and Webster and SLB OR DJ back at WLB, Boss at SLB, and Niko at MLB? Niko is an unknown, granted, but given the comments of his former position coach coupled with the fact that we waited till round 6 to draft another MLB leads me to think we may have something with this guy. We'll see, but I suspect the situation is at least better even if not ideal.

Now, if that doesn't have 10 wins written all over it, I don't know what does.

You're looking at all the negatives and none of the upside. We drafted 3 DL last season. Crowder and Thomas both showed flashes last season, with Thomas logging some starts at the end of the year and Crowder putting up 4.5 sacks in limited action. They weren't world beaters, but remember that rookie DL quite often have a year of adjustment before establishing themselves. Moss is coming back from the injury. If just two of those guys pan out we will be greatly improved on defense. Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting us to miraculously become a kick ass D, but I think we can be middle of the pack.

Offensively, I think we are poised to become a top 5 unit. If that happens and we have a middle of the road D, we will get to 10 wins easy. Cutler is coming into his third season after a solid sophmore campaign where he had an 88 QB rating--including 95 on the third down which was near the top of the league--while playing behind a crappy line and inconsistent running game. That crappy line has two top quality starters returning in Hamilton and Nalen plus the new tackle who should be an improvement if nothing else over a totally shot Lepsis. The WR corps is pretty deep with the vet signings plus the addition of Royal. TE is top notch with Graham and Scheff who is poised for a breakout season. In short, there is plenty of reason for optimism.

TheReverend
05-01-2008, 11:12 AM
:spit:

Listen dude, Da Nile ain't just a river in Egypt...

Shanahan has not been able to build a great defense, period. You can sugar coat that fact all you want but it's still the truth.

On the flip side, Shanny's MO is his ability to build great offenses, and more often than not, he's been able to put points on the board pretty consistenlty.

We shall see in the next two years if these drafts and FA pick ups pan out. I want them to work! I want all these picks to become starters and for the Broncos to win the damn SB too!

But, I'm also gonna hold Shanahan directly responsible for any lack of success this team has. He's not getting a free pass because he's Mike Shanahan.

Obviously we definite great defense completely different...

I'd call #3 scoring, #2 against the run, with 20 ints and 16 fr's (a +20 T/O ratio), a great defense...

Consequently that was the last year that had Al Wilson, Trevor Pryce and Champ Bailey on the field together, and the first time they had a player that could handle the point of attack in Courtney Brown. Oddly enough Champ also played through injuries all year.

Color it however you want, there's been a boatload of misfortune with injuries on the defensive side of the ball and that's not an excuse, it's reality.

Last years defensive woes weren't from lack of talent, or from poor building. It was from players with a complete lack of discipline in gap integrity. That's a biproduct of lost leadership, nothing else.

jonny1
05-01-2008, 11:46 AM
I simply doubt his ability to do so based on what he has done in the last 10 years. 1 trip to an AFC title game really isn't all that great in my book. Especially for a team that has a long and storied playoff history.

That long and storied playoff history was primarily due to one thing, having a great QB, or one of the best defenses of all time (take that, HOF committee).

The seesaw of reasoning that goes on around here is amazing. "The defense was terrible last year, and Shanny hasn't done anything to fix it . . . " You mean, besides signing two experienced LBs, two experienced safeties, and trading for a talented, misused player (with possible injury issues, although he has only missed 3 games in 5 years).

"But he hasn't done enough to fix the DT spot?" Putting aside the signing the aforementioned Robertson for now, alot of the same people saying that ALSO bring up the Browncos as a Shanny failure, even though EVERYONE of them contributed to the push to the AFCCG.

And who else that was available as a free agent or to trade would make the DL better? Jenkins? Maybe, but is he a better fit for THIS defense than Robertson?

Anyway, people are going to believe what they want to believe, but remember this, that "long and storied playoff history" had many, many Broncos fans in the 90s PRAYING that they would never get back to the Super Bowl, because it was so embarrassing to get blown out all the time.

TonyR
05-01-2008, 11:49 AM
By the way... for those of you who haven't noticed... the team underwent a complete remodeling, will be HIGHLY competitive in 2008 and back to perennial post-season contenion... and 7-9 was the worst you poor little babies had to endure.


I hope you're right, but I've got to ask... count your chickens before they hatch much? You're awfully bold in your statement of being "HIGHLY competitive in 2008 and back to perennial post-season contenion" without much to back it up. This team has a LOT of questions to answer before one can rationally and objectively make such a statement. Here's a primer:
1) defensive line
2) linebacker, particularly MLB
3) safety
4) Brandon Marshall's health
5) kicker (remember Jason Elam?)
6) punter
7) offensive line, particularly the health and effectiveness of Hamilton and Nalen, and the effectiveness of rookie Ryan Clady
8) special teams (particularly kick and punt coverage)

colonelbeef
05-01-2008, 12:12 PM
Those defenses of the 97 and 98 SB teams weren't "great" by any means. they were simply opportunistic, relying on the run game to dictate the game to the opposing team, forcing opposing coaches to throw the ball earlier and more often, with the prospect of Terrell Davis stuffing the ball down throats. They were balanced, with good tacklers across the board, good linebacker play, hard hitting safeties, and covers not afraid to take a chance.

Mike Shanahan is rebuilding with that blueprint in mind. He just wants a younger version so he has a shot at more titles, not 2 and out like last time due to age at QB.

USMCBladerunner
05-01-2008, 01:02 PM
It's not a cop out. If your car is old and you need to replace it, it's not a cop out to do a little homework and find a new one, and it's silly to think that there's no car that can ever replace yours, just because you don't know which one you're going to buy yet.

Bad analogy, maybe... but the point remains. If a part is broken, you fix it with one that isn't, and if you don't know which part that will be... you figure it out.

Scan the assistants, out of work coaches, college coaches, whatever. Teams do it all the time. All great coaches start somewhere. Why not in Denver.

I think it's a cop out to say that we have to stick with the guy we have because "there must not be any other options." That's nonsense.


Find someone.

Terrible analogy...not even worth analyzing

What you are pulling is totally a cop out. I'm not the one calling for Shanny's head and even I thought out a few options that would be worth discussing.

I have never said that we have to stick with Shanny because there are no other options. What I have said and and am saying, is that Shanahan is a damn good coach, and if he is to be let go, it best be with a replacement strategy in mind because good NLF coaches aren't exactly crawling out of the woodwork.

I hear a lot of spoiled fans crying that they had to suffer through a losing season or that they haven't been to a Super Bowl in 10 years like they have any idea how bad sports doughts can get. I'm open to discussing Shanahan leaving, but not with someone who can't see past their nose enough to even entertain some alternatives.

Find someone!!! (jumping up and down with fist pumped and eyes squeezed shut)...

Don't be naive...it's not that simple....

USMCBladerunner
05-01-2008, 01:09 PM
Anyway, people are going to believe what they want to believe, but remember this, that "long and storied playoff history" had many, many Broncos fans in the 90s PRAYING that they would never get back to the Super Bowl, because it was so embarrassing to get blown out all the time.

Those are the folks I consider less than true fans. Anyone that hopes your team loses cause you are afraid of losing on a bigger stage is: a) not a real fan (rather a fearful bandwagon fan) and b) pathetically lacking in fortitude.