Mel Kiper gives Denver C+ Draft Grade

[MVP-06]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft08/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&id=3357479

AFC West
Denver Broncos: GRADE: C+
Ryan Clady is the left tackle the Broncos needed to help Jay Cutler, and Clady should start right away. Eddie Royal is a decent slot receiver who has some return skills, Kory Lichtensteiger was one of the top centers in the draft and Arizona State's Ryan Torain is an interesting pick at running back because he has the potential to prosper in Denver. Torain's ASU teammate, safety Joshua Barrett, has great physical abilities, but does not always play up to his potential. I want to see how they use FB Peyton Hillis because he has great hands out of the backfield, and would be an ideal H-back if he were a couple of inches taller.

I gave us a "B", but as we all know you can't grade draft classes until at least 3 years after the draft.

[Smiling Assassin27]

C

[socalorado]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft08/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&id=3357479



I gave us a "B", but as we all know you can't grade draft classes until at least 3 years after the draft.

So LEX and Kiper both give DEN a C+. Hilarious! (sarcasm on!)
Just sayin......

Also, wheres the "downside" to the draft in Kipers blog??
Theres no questionable picks, Mel?!?!
So, why the C+? Not enough "big names" for ya?
I bet if DEN took "ME"sean, he would have given DEN an A+!

[MVP-06]

He must have been in a hurry to beat Mayock out with his grades, lol. btw ESPN's coverage of the draft sucked. They spent the whole second day talking about the first 2 rounds and would occasionally give you an update of the last 10 picks that happened while they were blabbing about how no receivers were taken in the first round. NFLN and Mayock did a much better job covering the actual draft that was going on, their graphics just sucked.

[cmhargrove]

Clady - starting LT this year
Royal - starting PR/KR this year
Lichtenstieger - backup / learn for a year. Will be ready to compete for G or C by next year. Could be a 10 year player.
Powell - should be in regular DT rotation this season.
Torain - depends on his rehab + Andre Hall's progress
Jack Williams - has the chance to compete, wait and see. Salary cap insurance for the team.
Spencer Larsen - play ST, give him a year to see if Niko works out.
Josh Barrett - boom or bust, lots of potential.
Peyton Hillis - could be the steal of this draft next to Powell. This kid is a rocket if used effectively. Plays like Chris Cooley - but faster.

Three guaranteed players this year, several for years to come. Kiper can blow himself, we are a better team after this weekend. I am really getting excited.

If Robertson stays healthy, this season is looking up.

[Kaylore]

C

Are you joking? :twitch:

[NaptownChief]

we are a better team after this weekend.



Every team is better after this weekend than they were right before it.

[lex]

How is taking someone with "great potential" in the 7th being criticized? I like how Mel pokes holes in our seventh round picks as if theyre 1st or 2nd round picks. I gave us a C+ but mine was weighted.

[Northman]

Our draft was at least a B.

[cmhargrove]

Kiper should spend more time listening to criticism about his dippy-doo haircut.

This draft has shown me that I have no respect for his analysis.

I love Mike Mayock's analysis, Kiper is a fraud.

[socalorado]

How is taking someone with "great potential" in the 7th being criticized? I like how Mel pokes holes in our seventh round picks as if theyre 1st or 2nd round picks. I gave us a C+ but mine was weighted.

TRUE.

I give us a B+ as of right now. We'll see in 2 years.

[socalorado]

Kiper should spend more time listening to criticism about his dippy-doo haircut.

This draft has shown me that I have no respect for his analysis.

I love Mike Mayock's analysis, Kiper is a fraud.

Were you watching NFL NEtwork!?!?!?
I swear, it was unreal, almost creepy, how Mayock could call every pick.

[NaptownChief]

I have found through the years that when Kiper rates a team as doing well that the fan base tends to really respect his opinion and when he is critical of the team then he is just a big haired blow hard who doesn't know what he is talking about. Kinda like the so and so "just hates us" comments that follow any article that doesn't blow sunshine up the teams backside.

Believe it or not every year there are several teams that do a poor job drafting....As a Chief fan I am well versed in that. As Bronco fans you guys aren't too far behind.

Some times people are very critical of what your team does and some times they are correct even though you don't want to hear it.

[BroncoInferno]

Kiper typically is pretty tough with his grading. Sometimes he doesn't give a single 'A' and only a handful of 'Bs'. Typically most teams fall in the 'C' range. Haven't seen his other grades yet, but based on how he typically grades this means he more or less likes what we did.

[BroncoBuff]

How about a reality check?

Clady = Perennial Pro Bowler, who will be the 1st OM'er to buy his jersey?
Royal = Good returner, not much more yet
Lichtensteiger = Poor man's Eslinger - practice squad a year or two
Powell = Good run-stuffer, will make the team and play
Torrian = Practice squad if he's lucky and IF he stays healthy
Williams = Keeper, keeper, keeper ... barring an injury, that's 5 CBs
Larsen = Best advice for him: Rent, don't buy
Barrett = I loved this Atwater-like size/speed combo, but why did he fall so far?
Hillis = Could be AWESOME weapon, but alas: not a lead blocker

B-

[cmhargrove]

I have found through the years that when Kiper rates a team as doing well that the fan base tends to really respect his opinion and when he is critical of the team then he is just a big haired blow hard who doesn't know what he is talking about. Kinda like the so and so "just hates us" comments that follow any article that doesn't blow sunshine up the teams backside.

Believe it or not every year there are several teams that do a poor job drafting....As a Chief fan I am well versed in that. As Bronco fans you guys aren't too far behind.

Some times people are very critical of what your team does and some times they are correct even though you don't want to hear it.

My problem with his analysis vs. Mayock has many points, the first is that he really doesn't seem to be "up to date" on each team's needs and strategies. I mean, Shanahan flat out says Clady is our starting LT, and Kiper says he will play RT. Where's the homework? He could be RT by the end of training camp, but he should take the head coaches word over his own opinion.

Kiper needs to do more homework or say "the jury is out" on a particular player before he says they are a bad pick. I think in the long run, you don't look like quite an ass that way.

[BMF Bronco]

Kiper is an idiot, he gave the Broncos a B in picking Clady when five minutes before he put Clady as the best available option on his list. Contradict yourself much Mel?

[MVP-06]

How about a reality check?

Clady = Perennial Pro Bowler, who will be the 1st OM'er to buy his jersey?
Royal = Good returner, not much more yet
Lichtensteiger = Poor man's Eslinger - practice squad a year or two
Powell = Good run-stuffer, will make the team and play
Torrian = Practice squad if he's lucky and IF he stays healthy
Williams = Keeper, keeper, keeper ... barring an injury, that's 5 CBs
Larsen = Best advice for him: Rent, don't buy
Barrett = I loved this Atwater-like size/speed combo, but why did he fall so far?
Hillis = Could be AWESOME weapon, but alas: not a lead blocker

B-

I agree with you on most except for the Center. He is much bigger, meaner then Eslinger. At 310 lbs. he could anchor our offense for the next decade when Nalen calls it quits

[oubronco]

well he also gave a c+ to san diego who's got one of the best draft guru's in the league

[NaptownChief]

My problem with his analysis vs. Mayock has many points, the first is that he really doesn't seem to be "up to date" on each team's needs and strategies. I mean, Shanahan flat out says Clady is our starting LT, and Kiper says he will play RT. Where's the homework? He could be RT by the end of training camp, but he should take the head coaches word over his own opinion.

Kiper needs to do more homework or say "the jury is out" on a particular player before he says they are a bad pick. I think in the long run, you don't look like quite an ass that way.



Fair enough...But given how many players he has to do homework on and 32 NFL teams it is nearly impossible for anyone to be completely up to full speed on every thing. I'm not a Kiper disciple by any means but he does a solid job given what he is undertaking.

And I'm sure he injects his own opinions(as we all do) on players but most of his opinion is based off talking to coaches, scouts and GM's to get their thoughts and he just translates what he is hearing. Granted many coaches, scouts and GM's don't want to expose their teams hand but I'm sure after three decades of doing this he is probably pretty good at interpretation of their song and dance.

You also have to realize that by default as a draft analyst you are going to be far more negative and critical of players than positive. If you aren't then you aren't very good at what you do as the overwhelming majority of players drafted don't pan out to be good NFL players. Only about 50% of the first rounder's pan out and the numbers only fall off with each passing round.

As fans we don't want to hear it but the reality is most of the players our teams draft will turn out to be turds.

[Broncoman13]

How about a reality check?

Clady = Perennial Pro Bowler, who will be the 1st OM'er to buy his jersey?
Royal = Good returner, not much more yet
Lichtensteiger = Poor man's Eslinger - practice squad a year or two
Powell = Good run-stuffer, will make the team and play
Torrian = Practice squad if he's lucky and IF he stays healthy
Williams = Keeper, keeper, keeper ... barring an injury, that's 5 CBs
Larsen = Best advice for him: Rent, don't buy
Barrett = I loved this Atwater-like size/speed combo, but why did he fall so far?
Hillis = Could be AWESOME weapon, but alas: not a lead blocker

B-

WHOA! BB, LichtenSTEIGER (emphasis on the Steiger when your pronounce his name!) is not a poor man's Eslinger. In fact, you can see that we learn from our mistake in Eslinger. Kory is a bull compared to Eslinger. Better size, MUCH stronger, and plays with much more passion, even anger. He has a mean streak and if you watched any of the battles between he and Red Bryant during the Sr. Bowl, you would realize this kid is very different from Eslinger.

You mention Torrain as a PS guy if he's healthy. He claims he is 100%. IMO, he will be our 3rd RB. Mike Bell is out of a job with this pick. Andre Hall better bring it strong b/c this kid can run with power. Andre Hall and Selvin Young are pretty similar, they will duke it out for a roster spot IMO.

I agree with everything else you posted.

[Odysseus]

Draft ratings are colored by the previous seasons wins and losses. This past season was all about teams in the East.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Grading the draft the day after makes about as much sense as deciding who the class valadictorian is on the 2nd day of school. In other words it's idiotic and so is buying into it. I could give a crap what Kiper or anyone else thinks.

[JCMElway]

Like our FA pickups this year, this draft was solid, not sexy. We did not go for the flash or glitz, but with solid players, most of whom filled a need. We were also financially responsible and didn't sign anyone worth big $$$.

It was clear that the Goodmans had a huge voice in this draft. In the past where we went out and spent like drunken sailors, now we are building a nice foundation through the draft. Definitely not as fun for some of the ADD fans on the board, but it's a step in the right direction.

[footstepsfrom#27]

WHOA! BB, LichtenSTEIGER (emphasis on the Steiger when your pronounce his name!) is not a poor man's Eslinger. In fact, you can see that we learn from our mistake in Eslinger. Kory is a bull compared to Eslinger. Better size, MUCH stronger, and plays with much more passion, even anger. He has a mean streak and if you watched any of the battles between he and Red Bryant during the Sr. Bowl, you would realize this kid is very different from Eslinger.
I missed that...but I wanted to draft Bryant becuase he's a monster in the middle who stuffs the run...so how did Kory hold up against Bryant?

[Dagmar]

Grading the draft the day after makes about as much sense as deciding who the class valadictorian is on the 2nd day of school. In other words it's idiotic and so is buying into it. I could give a crap what Kiper or anyone else thinks.

I'm amazed it took so long for some to make this very valid point.

[Kaylore]

How about a reality check?

Clady = Perennial Pro Bowler, who will be the 1st OM'er to buy his jersey?
Agree
Royal = Good returner, not much more yet
He will be a great slot receiver and explosive return man.
Lichtensteiger = Poor man's Eslinger - practice squad a year or two
You're so far off on this I question if you have the right guy. He plays with a mean streak and is incredibly intelligent. He is head and shoulders better than Eslinger will ever be. Eslinger isn't even pro material.
Powell = Good run-stuffer, will make the team and play
He is probably the gem of our selections outside of Clady.
Torrian = Practice squad if he's lucky and IF he stays healthy
You are very foolish to doubt a Bronco running back selection. I promise you this guy will probably be starting for us.
Williams = Keeper, keeper, keeper ... barring an injury, that's 5 CBs
He'll play the slot and fills a need. Good value.
Larsen = Best advice for him: Rent, don't buy
They might try him at full back. A hard worker who will be a beast on special teams. He should stick for at least a season or two.
Barrett = I loved this Atwater-like size/speed combo, but why did he fall so far?
Consistency. He's off and on. A great value pick. If we get his head on straight, he has starting ability.
Hillis = Could be AWESOME weapon, but alas: not a lead blocker
What? Who told you he was not a lead blocker? He was one of the reasons their run game was so good. He's a more versatile player than Schmitt, the plow, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good blocker. A beast on special teams, great hands, very good blocker - he's just an overall selfless player. He's a football player. Good teams have a few of these guys. This is one of the slam dunks of our draft.

[Rohirrim]

If the Broncos have their LT for the next 13 years or so, I call it an "A." That's how important I consider the position.

[socalorado]

Heres PFT's grades on the draft

THE PFT OFFICIAL DRAFT GRADES (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/04/28/the-pft-official-draft-grades/)

Posted by Mike Florio on April 28, 2008, 9:40 a.m.
Every year at this time (actually, we can’t recall ever doing it before), we hand out our grades for the NFL (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/04/28/the-pft-official-draft-grades/#) draft.
Coincidentally, every team gets the same grade: Incomplete.
Though we’re as intrigued as anyone by the pinnacle (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/04/28/the-pft-official-draft-grades/#) of the NFL’s offseason effort to sell hope to the fans of 32 franchises, there’s simply no way of knowing whether any team has done a good job or a bad job until the players get onto the field and practice and play against grown men who represent the best of the best from the past decade of 120-plus college programs pumping players into the NFL.
There’s no way of knowing for sure who will or won’t succeed at the next level until they enter the arena at the next level and show what they can do. If anyone knew for sure, the future Hall of Famers would always be the first few guys taken. Next would come the players who’ll make it to four or five Pro Bowls. Then the consistent starters. And so on down the line until the final few picks are used on guys who’ll get a Rudy-style cameo at some point, if they’re lucky.
And even if a guy has Hall of Fame talent, the X factor is whether any of those guys with Hall of Fame potential will change once the pursuit of money is no longer a factor in their lives.
What we should be doing the Monday after every draft is peering a few years into the rear-view mirror and handing out grades for past draft classes. But such an exercise would conflict with the selling of hope. And so in lieu of exposing the fat old man behind the curtain, we’ll instead marvel at this class of picks like they’re a fang-mouthed disembodied head flanked by KISS-style flash pots.

[NaptownChief]

Agree

He will be a great slot receiver and explosive return man.

You're so far off on this I question if you have the right guy. He plays with a mean streak and is incredibly intelligent. He is head and shoulders better than Eslinger will ever be. Eslinger isn't even pro material.

He is probably the gem of our selections outside of Clady.

You are very foolish to doubt a Bronco running back selection. I promise you this guy will probably be starting for us.

He'll play the slot and fills a need. Good value.

They might try him at full back. A hard worker who will be a beast on special teams. He should stick for at least a season or two.

Consistency. He's off and on. A great value pick. If we get his head on straight, he has starting ability.

What? Who told you he was not a lead blocker? He was one of the reasons their run game was so good. He's a more versatile player than Schmitt, the plow, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good blocker. A beast on special teams, great hands, very good blocker - he's just an overall selfless player. He's a football player. Good teams have a few of these guys. This is one of the slam dunks of our draft.




I'm not one to put too much into grading drafts before players even step into camp as there is only a handful of players that I have watched a lot of and feel very certain as to them being very good pick or being a very poor pick.

So that said I'm not about to say whether you are right or wrong about any of your opinions but I will say this, you are definitely an optimist.

But looking at Denver's draft the only pick that stands out to me is Royal. He is extremely similar to Dorian Bryant from Purdue in size, speed and ability and Bryant went undrafted. Both very good return guys and Bryant might even be a better receiver just do to the fact he has a lot more experience being in the pass happy Purdue offense versus VT's offense.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I agree that grading the draft is an exercise in retardation. I love how after the clady pick, Mel was talking about how they should have drafted Brandon Albert. Mel, it's not like they took a QB. They took another left tackle who was rated virtually the same. Why is it so hard to comprehend that maybe the Denver staff liked Clady better than the one he verbally fellates. It's laughable.

Denver had needs and, I think, filled those needs with great value throughout the draft. I dont really see where the holes are poked.

[Dagmar]

If the Broncos have their LT for the next 13 years or so, I call it an "A." That's how important I consider the position.

It's that important they wrote a book about it...

http://a3.vox.com/6a00b8ea0714f01bc000c2252c880b604a-500pi

[Jason in LA]

Kiper is a douche. He supports Matt Lienert and Vince Young but he bashes Jay Cutler. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Broncoman13]

I missed that...but I wanted to draft Bryant becuase he's a monster in the middle who stuffs the run...so how did Kory hold up against Bryant?

He kept Red in check and frustrated him to the point of wanting to fight. I'd say he got the better of him and for what it's worth, I'm a big Red fan. Even drafted him for the Falcons (early!).

[Kaylore]

I

But looking at Denver's draft the only pick that stands out to me is Royal.

:mullet1:

[NaptownChief]

:mullet1:

Kaylore typing up his post draft report:


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:VBEIHEA5YRJ8JM:http://www.erinhilldonkeystud.com/images/donkey_using_computer_hg_clr.gif

[Kaylore]

Kaylore typing up his post draft report:


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:VBEIHEA5YRJ8JM:http://www.erinhilldonkeystud.com/images/donkey_using_computer_hg_clr.gif

NapTown on the Broncos draft: durrrrrrrrrrr I only recognize won name. Ur draft is teh suk cuz i only no won name. durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[NaptownChief]

NapTown on the Broncos draft: durrrrrrrrrrr I only recognize won name. Ur draft is teh suk cuz i only no won name. durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr



Kaylore on the donks draft:

Uhhh they are all great...immediate starter, long time pro bowlers....they have to be because Shanny picked them and he is great at the draft. uhhhh and stuff.

[broncofan2438]

Kiper is an idiot, he gave the Broncos a B in picking Clady when five minutes before he put Clady as the best available option on his list. Contradict yourself much Mel?

I agree, Kiper is annoying

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Both imitations, spot on.

[maher_tyler]

So LEX and Kiper both give DEN a C+. Hilarious! (sarcasm on!)
Just sayin......

Also, wheres the "downside" to the draft in Kipers blog??
Theres no questionable picks, Mel?!?!
So, why the C+? Not enough "big names" for ya?
I bet if DEN took "ME"sean, he would have given DEN an A+!

Who gives a **** what this guy says..the only opinion that matters are the guys that made the picks!!

[BMF Bronco]

Who gives a **** what this guy says..the only opinion that matters are the guys that made the picks!!

bull****, my opinion matters!!!! :thumbs:

[Punisher]

In a way i agree with kiper i didn't understand why we picked up Ryan Torain we could of took a DT or DE with that pick,how many RBs does shanny need...I really like Royal and Hillis and i have some concerns about Clady.

[TheReverend]

Agree

He will be a great slot receiver and explosive return man.

And with 08's WR depth, he's got time to grow into that role.

You're so far off on this I question if you have the right guy. He plays with a mean streak and is incredibly intelligent. He is head and shoulders better than Eslinger will ever be. Eslinger isn't even pro material.

Long history of moving people off the ball and "mean streak" is an understatement. I vote nickname "T-Rex" due to mean streak and his stub arms.

He is probably the gem of our selections outside of Clady.

He's the most intriguing for sure... He won't be able to manhandle double teams on the pro-level, but he should land a spot on the rotation year one. Robertson gives this guy more of an opportunity to grow.

You are very foolish to doubt a Bronco running back selection. I promise you this guy will probably be starting for us.

Or at least contribute in spot situations and ST.

He'll play the slot and fills a need. Good value.

I don't even remember who you're talking about here...

They might try him at full back. A hard worker who will be a beast on special teams. He should stick for at least a season or two.

I think Hillis puts that to sleep. This guy may come in on dive plays to ISO a LB, but he'll be fighting Niko for the Mike.

Consistency. He's off and on. A great value pick. If we get his head on straight, he has starting ability.

That's what the practice squad is for!

What? Who told you he was not a lead blocker? He was one of the reasons their run game was so good. He's a more versatile player than Schmitt, the plow, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good blocker. A beast on special teams, great hands, very good blocker - he's just an overall selfless player. He's a football player. Good teams have a few of these guys. This is one of the slam dunks of our draft.

:wiggle:

[SureShot]

How about a reality check?

Clady = Perennial Pro Bowler, who will be the 1st OM'er to buy his jersey?
Royal = Good returner, not much more yet
Lichtensteiger = Poor man's Eslinger - practice squad a year or twoPowell = Good run-stuffer, will make the team and play
Torrian = Practice squad if he's lucky and IF he stays healthy
Williams = Keeper, keeper, keeper ... barring an injury, that's 5 CBs
Larsen = Best advice for him: Rent, don't buy
Barrett = I loved this Atwater-like size/speed combo, but why did he fall so far?
Hillis = Could be AWESOME weapon, but alas: not a lead blocker

B-


How can he be a poor man's Eslinger when he was our third pick overall while Eslinger was a late round weakling?

[skpac1001]

NapTown on the Broncos draft: durrrrrrrrrrr I only recognize won name. Ur draft is teh suk cuz i only no won name. durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Lol, sounds like the qb making fun of The Waterboy...
Durrrr I'm the w-w-w-waterboy durrr

[i4jelway7]

Jason Cole of Yahoo gave us a B

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Ag5KpR1j30wNZJ5YdAzsUXxDubYF?slug=jc-2008afcdraftgrades042808&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[BroncoBuff]

Agree

He will be a great slot receiver and explosive return man.

You're so far off on this I question if you have the right guy. He plays with a mean streak and is incredibly intelligent. He is head and shoulders better than Eslinger will ever be. Eslinger isn't even pro material.

He is probably the gem of our selections outside of Clady.

You are very foolish to doubt a Bronco running back selection. I promise you this guy will probably be starting for us.

He'll play the slot and fills a need. Good value.

They might try him at full back. A hard worker who will be a beast on special teams. He should stick for at least a season or two.

Consistency. He's off and on. A great value pick. If we get his head on straight, he has starting ability.

What? Who told you he was not a lead blocker? He was one of the reasons their run game was so good. He's a more versatile player than Schmitt, the plow, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good blocker. A beast on special teams, great hands, very good blocker - he's just an overall selfless player. He's a football player. Good teams have a few of these guys. This is one of the slam dunks of our draft.

I get it, you like everyone. Rah Rah!

We'll see.

And your question, who told me Hillis is just a marginal blocker? ... Kiper, ESPN, and every draft site:


Strengths:
Very athletic...Above average timed speed...A fantastic receiver...Smart with good awareness...Displays good technique...Has a non-stop motor...Extremely versatile weapon...Hard worker with top intangibles..Offers a lot of special teams potential.

Weaknesses:
A bit of a FB/RB 'tweener...Doesn't have the type of bulk that you'd prefer...Just an average blocker...Durability is an issue...Not very powerful...Isn't a great short yardage runner...Not very elusive...Probably won't be a good fit for every scheme.

Notes:
Was used at fullback, H-back, tailback, tight end, wide receiver and punt returner in college...Broke three vertebrae in his back as a freshman in 2004...Also missed time with a deep thigh bruise in '06...Non-traditional, West Coast fullback who can contribute in a number of ways...Could potentially be a poor-man's Brian Leonard.

[BroncoBuff]

We all thought Chris Myers was great a month ago, too, remember.

Lichtensteiger is Eslinger redux ... just read this capsule. If you didn't know they were talking about Kory, you'd think it was Greg Eslinger:


Strengths:
Super smart with excellent awareness...An outstanding technician...Intense with a great motor...Strong...Plays with terrific leverage...Positions his hands well...A hard worker and leader...Quick and moves his feet well...Nice balance...Versatile.

Weaknesses:
Doesn't have the ideal size that you look for...Has short arms...Is not stout at the point of attack...Doesn't get a great push in the run game...Is not overly powerful or dominating...Has trouble recovering when beaten...Upside is most likely limited.

Notes:
Brother Kirk played basketball at Defiance College...Has experience at both center and guard...A four-year starter...A finalist for the Rimington Trophy...A semi-finalist for the Draddy Award...Has the intangibles but physical tools are lacking..Probably profiles as more of a backup in the pros but he is also the type you hate to doubt



But hey, his brother Kirk played basketball at Defiance College. So he's got that going for him ;D

[anthonypacino]

How about a reality check?

Clady = Perennial Pro Bowler, who will be the 1st OM'er to buy his jersey? Great pick I was really pulling for this one
Royal = Good returner, not much more yet I know we needed him and he was on my want list, I thought we reached a little for him but not having a 3rd would make us reach for something...I wanted Dexter Jackson but I am happy with Royal
Lichtensteiger = Poor man's Eslinger - practice squad a year or two I thought it was a weak draft for centers, I was hoping for Kevin Smith or Xavier Adibi in this spot...Smith was already off the boards though
Powell = Good run-stuffer, will make the team and play
Torrian = Practice squad if he's lucky and IF he stays healthy This pick didn't do anything for me at all and wished we would have got the punter from GT by this point, it seemed as if we were drafting for need up til this point
Williams = Keeper, keeper, keeper ... barring an injury, that's 5 CBs
Larsen = Best advice for him: Rent, don't buy
Barrett = I loved this Atwater-like size/speed combo, but why did he fall so far?
Hillis = Could be AWESOME weapon, but alas: not a lead blocker Don't we already have this guy?? Isn't his other names Nate Jackson and Tony Scheffler? Only a few guys we missed on that I really thought would be great for us, Dexter Jackson, Xavier Adibi, Kevin Smith, John Greco, Durant Brooks and Xavier Omon. But I'm really pleased with the Clady pick and if we didn't take Jackson, then Royal was 2nd on my list of KR/PR.

B- I would have to give us a C without Clady this was a so so, draft we took a few guys who spent alot of last year either injured or benched, we addressed a few of our needs and stayed put no wheeling and dealing this time, my concerns for next year are that every team except the Chargers in our division had really good drafts (at least on paper for now) Right now we aren't very good at stopping the run game and both the Chiefs and Raiders just got alot better running the ball. Now we just have to wait to see how it all pans out, August can't get here soon enough!

[oubronco]

The ASSSCLOWN Mel Kiper as a youngster

[Kaylore]

I get it, you like everyone. Rah Rah!
Yes I do. We had good value and all of them are good characters. Does that mean i think they will all be starters or even on the team in two years? Heaven's no! But you can only draft what is best available at the spot and that's what we did.


And your question, who told me Hillis is just a marginal blocker? ... Kiper, ESPN, and every draft site:

Scott Wright's site, while used by everyone on here as the bible of draft analysis, is not always right and very overrated. It has its uses and the stats with quick bios are nice, but there are other areas that are good to check out.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/peyton-hillis?id=1980

[NaptownChief]

Yes I do.



Out of curiosity, did you support the Mo Clarret pick?

[Kaylore]

We all thought Chris Myers was great a month ago, too, remember.

Lichtensteiger is Eslinger redux ... j

BB, comments like this are just so off. Eslinger was taken in the sixth round toward the bottom. Lichtensteiger is built totally different and a high fourth round pick. Most had him rated as one of the top centers in the class. I know you haven't seen Eslinger up close, but I have and the guy looks like a middle weight tight end. He weighed something like 280.

Lichtensteiger is a bubble-butt barrel bodied bruiser. His arms aren't a big deal because he's not playing tackle. He plays with a mean streak and is very phyiscal. I will bet you right now that Eslinger will be out of football in two years and Lichtensteiger will have a ten year pro career.

[Florida_Bronco]

I give Kiper an "F" in life.

[Kaylore]

Out of curiosity, did you support the Mo Clarret pick?

No. I was making fun of it. Really I don't need to explain myself to you, though.

[fontaine]

We all thought Chris Myers was great a month ago, too, remember.


No we didn't. Most of the folks who watched the Denver OL, weighed their opinions instead of just saying Pears sucks or Kuper is great.

Myers improved towards the end of the season but he was by no means great.

[Paladin]

Are these "experts" grading on a curve, or what?

Denver drafted for the needs of the team. Not for anyone else's' ego needs. Just because "your" guy wasn't selected, that does not invalidate the picks the Broncos made....

Some people just want to hate on the draft picks for conversation -poor lonely souls - and there are trolls who are just arseholes......

[NaptownChief]

No. I was making fun of it. Really I don't need to explain myself to you, though.



good, that at least gives your opinion some credibility....albeit your still a Donk fan but at least a smidge of credibility.

[TonyR]

Dr. Z doesn't like our draft, either.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/dr_z/04/28/draft.roundup/index.html?eref=sircrc

"Denver Broncos: Mike Shanahan feels that establishing the run (tackle Ryan Clady drafted first) is more important than stopping it, which the Broncos couldn't do last year, and far be it from me to second guess him. How about first guess?"

[Atlas]

Kiper should spend more time listening to criticism about his dippy-doo haircut.

This draft has shown me that I have no respect for his analysis.

I love Mike Mayock's analysis, Kiper is a fraud.

I listen to Kiper on ESPN radio all the time and that guy is so knowledgable about college players it isn't even funny. I don't think Mayok can hold his jock.... Or I guess he could hold Mel's jock if Mel let him that is.

[NaptownChief]

I listen to Kiper on ESPN radio all the time and that guy is so knowledgable about college players it isn't even funny. I don't think Mayok can hold his jock.... Or I guess he could hold Mel's jock if Mel let him that is.



I think Mayock knows a lot more about football and his own personal evaluations are of more value than Kiper but Kiper does his homework in gathering and retaining information about college players as well as anyone.

[OABB]

I listen to Kiper on ESPN radio all the time and that guy is so knowledgable about college players it isn't even funny. I don't think Mayok can hold his jock.... Or I guess he could hold Mel's jock if Mel let him that is.

I don't think anyone is denying that he is knowledgeable....
but compared to mayock, it is kind of sad, really. He must hate mayock for making him look so pathetic on live television.

he not only should hold mayock's jock, he should put him in it, take him out of it, and clean it with his tongue.

[Kaylore]

I listen to Kiper on ESPN radio all the time and that guy is so knowledgable about college players it isn't even funny. I don't think Mayok can hold his jock.... Or I guess he could hold Mel's jock if Mel let him that is.

It's the other way around. Mayock played and has real scouting experience. Kiper has hair and a contract with E$PiN.

[Punisher]

I give Kiper an "F" in life.

I disagree i give him a D- :thumbsup:

[elsid13]

I love how folks like to grade player that have never step on NFL field and don't take to in account the system they are going to be playing in. The things I know is what I physical watched on TV about some of the players.

1. Torain is a beast, that you can see has a chance to be very very good.
2. Royal is football player that has chance to be a our best slot WR ever
3. Larsen is mean MF that likes to hit. My favorite selection of the draft. He older then what "scouts" like but get there were he needs to. The guy was all 1st team PAC-10 as LB. That saying something.
4. Barett never made an impression on me watching tv.

[fontaine]

I'm over the moon if Kiper gave us a C+.

Seriously, for the 2006 draft where we got:

Cutler: Franchise QB
Scheff: Solid #2 TE
Marshall: Stud WR
Chris Kuper: Starter at G/OT
Dumervil: Solid DE
Pears: Great depth

Kiper gave us a B.

So by his own insight and high standards this year's C+ draft class should be just marginally lesser than the great one in 2006.

[Drek]

How about a reality check?

Clady = Perennial Pro Bowler, who will be the 1st OM'er to buy his jersey?
Royal = Good returner, not much more yet
Lichtensteiger = Poor man's Eslinger - practice squad a year or two
Powell = Good run-stuffer, will make the team and play
Torrian = Practice squad if he's lucky and IF he stays healthy
Williams = Keeper, keeper, keeper ... barring an injury, that's 5 CBs
Larsen = Best advice for him: Rent, don't buy
Barrett = I loved this Atwater-like size/speed combo, but why did he fall so far?
Hillis = Could be AWESOME weapon, but alas: not a lead blocker

B-

I think Clady could be very good, so we agree there.

Royal is a proven returner and a very good short to intermediate route runner as a WR. He could be a productive slot WR from day one. Is he Wes Welker or Steve Smith? Probably not (at least not now), but he step in for Brandon Stokley without us missing out on too much should Stokley get hurt, and he'll be a very good long term option to replace him.

Lichtensteiger is nothing like Eslinger. Read something other than the web-rag that is nfldraftcountdown.com. How many reports have you seen on there when they say "poor timed speed" and the dude ran a 4.3? They are incredibly bad. Check out the ESPN or NFL reports on him.

From Scouts Inc. (ESPN):
Strengths: Delivers a violent punch, gets adequate hand placement and locks on once in position. Gets under defenders pads, drives legs and shows decent lower body strength as a run blocker. Has a mean streak, works from snap until whistle and can put defenders on their backs. Shows adequate footwork as a run blocker and flashes the ability to reach defenders lined over outside shoulder. Takes sound angles to blocks and can get into position at the second level. Shows decent range, is always looking to hit someone downfield and flashes the ability to pull effectively.

He's not just a technician. He's strong and he likes to hit. Not much like Eslinger at all really.

I think you overrate Jack Williams. He played the defensive "halfback" position at Kent State, where he basically ran to the ball all the time. He's got to prove he can play man coverage, which isn't easy to learn at all. I think he'll be a great special teamer though and could given some time have value as a backup CB.

Torian was a top collegiate RB coming into this season and has been totally medically cleared. He fills a need for a power back. I'm not thrilled with it myself but he'll be on the 53 man and will see action during the regular season, you can bet on that. Who am I to question Turner's RB choice? Just as long as he doesn't start drinking 40's in the weight room he should do fine.

Larsen isn't much of an athletic talent but he's a good character guy who does well on special teams. We need a lot of help there. Wouldn't surprise me if he's our next Keith Burns.

Josh Barrett fell so far because he got benched at one point in his senior season and has always been inconsistent in terms of production and effort. He's also had some injury issues. Supposedly he straightened out and played hard after being put back on the field after the benching, and if he keeps himself dedicated he could be excellent.

Hillis is a very good blocker. Hell, for a fullback he's a very good everything. He's not Owen Schmitt or Mike Cox blocking but he's a big upgrade over Cecil Sapp or Kyle Johnson blocking and he's a much better weapon running and receiving than either of them as well.


To me this draft was a solid B-, slightly above average, then we hit the 7th round and netted some steals. That pushes it up to a B+ for me because I think Hillis will start this season at FB and given some time Barrett could be an all world stud.

The problem with Kiper's review is that he's so damn secure in his own evaluations that when he's proven wrong he lashes out with negative commentary. He and almost all the other draft "gurus" **** the bed in grading this year's WR class and it made him look stupid when we took Eddie Royal over Desean Jackson, Limas Sweed, etc.. As soon as we did that I knew we wouldn't do better than a C+ in his annual draft grades.

Same when we took Cutler really. His pets were Young and Leinart. We gave good value to the other QB, who now looks obviously superior, but he won't let go of the fact that an NFL team dared go against the recommendations of the great and powerful Mel.

He's good at what he does but his ego seems to get bigger every year and he lets it get in the way of him improving. McShay is comparable at this point and Mayock is so damn far ahead of any other draft commentator that watching ESPN and NFL at the same time was borderline embarrassing.

[BroncoBuff]

I suppose I'm uncomfortable with all this "irrational exuberance" the day after. Some guys are acting as if they've never seen a draft before. By that I mean, as just one example, DJ Williams is all that's left from 2004 ... but I'll bet nobody was complaining much about that draft the day after (except wishing we'd traken Steven Jackson). And EVERY draft prior to that one, same thing. Even 2005 is looking sad now ... Myers and Ernster gone, Foxworth and Paymah low-tendered. My point is that - for me at least - I wanna pull back from these guys and not get too excited (except for Clady).

Royal was a major-reach ... they want him, fine. But don't panic at #42. Trade back 10 or 15 slots, and pick up another pick to use on a punter like Drago or Durant (punter and kicker are still g a p i n g holes on this roster). Taking Royal at 42 reminded me of the Dolphins jumping on Ginn last year ... a real eyebrow-raising reach for gamebreaker glory.
Not just DraftCountdown, but several other sites had Lichtensteiger ranked between #4 and #6 center (though he was #1 on one site - compared to Jeff Saturday). We'll see.
Torrian was just a foolish pick. We're awash in backup running backs as it is, with FOUR decent backups, two of which have been moved to FB the past couple years because of the glut (Bell, Sapp). Torrian = Cedric Cobbs, maybe Cecil Sapp. In fact, Cecil Sapp is a good comparison to Torrian, minus the injuries. My objection is that - seeing this glut of backup RBs - why not go with another DT, raising your chances of finding a diamond in the rough at a position of dire need? (We can't stop the freaking run, remember). We may as well have drafted a QB. Again, we'll see.
I like Carlton Powell mostly because he's a DT with run-stopping rep. Some sites diss him though ... http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2008/04/13/nfl-draft-ranking-the-wide-receivers/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.feedburner.com%2F%7Er%2FFo xsports%2Frss%2FCFB%2F%7E3%2F269081049%2FNFL-Draft%3A-Ranking-the-wide-receivers&frame=true
I like Jack Williams because ... major speed + Mayock endorsement = good enough for me (if he can hit).
I hadn't thought about Webster being a no-special teams guys ... that might give Larsen an opening ... but I still doubt he'l make the team. Poor tackler, too slow.
Josh Barett was one of my guys, so I should be happy. BUT ... a 6'2, 225 pound 4.3 40 big hitter falling from a 3rd round grade all the way to the 6th is a big concern.
I like Peyton Hillis, but he is FAR from a traditional blocking FB. That comes from many more sources than just NFLDraftCountdown, that's the consensus - including both Kiper and McShay. Maybe a shorter Patrick Hape. Gimme a Mayock link on Hillis - I'll go with whatever he says (Drek ... you or I could be "adequate" blocking fullbacks in front of McFadden and Felix Jones ::)



Don't get me wrong, I like this draft a LOT. Like I said, B-minus, maybe a B. But there are two very simple reasons why: 1) a blue-chipper in the first, 2) NINE total picks. I can't remember having nine picks. But I'm realistic. If just SIX TOTAL make the team (IR and practice squad included), I'll be jazzed. But I won't pretend all 9 will make the 53-man roster and five will start, like the sentiment in here seems to be.

[Atwater His Ass]

I like what we've done on the DL with Robertson and Powell. However, I would have liked to have seen us draft yet another DT instead of Torrian. The Torrian pick is the only one I really just don't like nor see why it was made at all other than we "always" draft a RB.

Big "if's" here, but if Robertson continues to stay healthy, Thomas develops, and Powell has half the success he's expereinced at the colleigate level, our DL is looking pretty good. At the least, we have more young guys with a higher celing right now than we've had in a long time. I'm finally comfortable with our DTs and DEs. Now they just have to perform.

And it is amazing how 1 pick on the OL can turn that unit around so much.

Clady
Hamilton
Nalen
Holland
Harris/Kuper/Pears

Looks a hell of a lot better than last season's abortion.

[crazyhorse]

Every April you guys are saying A or B.

Every December you guys are saying F.

In between you crack on everyone who says anything different than you do.

This year is no different.

[BroncoBuff]

I like UDFA Woodyard more than Larsen ...

[Spider]

I give the Draft a F- ...... No way in hell will be picking in the top 10 in next years draft with this **** going on ........

[Spider]

Dr. Z doesn't like our draft, either.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/dr_z/04/28/draft.roundup/index.html?eref=sircrc

"Denver Broncos: Mike Shanahan feels that establishing the run (tackle Ryan Clady drafted first) is more important than stopping it, which the Broncos couldn't do last year, and far be it from me to second guess him. How about first guess?"

well Dr Z . we both know that running the ball is just as important as stopping the run , we have lost games late cause we couldnt control the clock , yes stopping the run is just as important , but for some ****ing silly reason , the NFL will not give Denver permission to pick all of the players we want or need while the rest of the NFL sits back and fights for our crumbs , so since we have to play by the same rules as everyone else , there is no reason to draft to PROTECT our franchise QB , I mean David Carr turned out just fine didnt he ? ......... Life is unfair ......

[elsid13]

I like UDFA Woodyard more than Larsen ...

Ever watch Larsen play? Mayock had Larsen in top 5 LB for long time. Woodyard is ST player at best, but Larsen has chance to be starting MLB.

[elsid13]

I give the Draft a F- ...... No way in hell will be picking in the top 10 in next years draft with this **** going on ........

Dude we trading everyone away for all top 11 draft picks next year. Figure we would follow the KC method of SB winning.

[Spider]

Dude we trading everyone away for all top 11 draft picks next year. Figure we would follow the KC method of SB winning.
;D cant argue with that ......

[lex]

Ever watch Larsen play? Mayock had Larsen in top 5 LB for long time. Woodyard is ST player at best, but Larsen has chance to be starting MLB.

Actually both players are both very solid acquisitions.

[BroncoBuff]

Broncos released Paul Smith today ... that makes the Torrian and Hillis picks a bit more understandable. I had thought Smith was a special teams leader and would make the roster.

I think Larsen is seriously doubtful to make the team ... he's two years older than other rookies after a Mormon mission, so his low measurables are unlikely to improve much. And he's not a great tackler either ... I can hadly believe he was in Mayock'sTop 5. In fact, I think you might be mistaken there ... ???

[Pseudofool]

Kiper was on Gotley (sp?) ESPN's radio show the Pulse this evening and was a lot more complinetary of the Bronco's draft than in writing. Kiper kept going on and on about building around Cutler and taking the right players to do that. He good things to say about Royal, Hillis, Torain, and Williams and of course Clady. It's hard to get specifics from Kiper on the radio because he talks so fast and so stilted. He must have that new amphetimine-enhanced hair gel.

[elsid13]

Broncos released Paul Smith today ... that makes the Torrian and Hillis picks a bit more understandable. I had thought Smith was a special teams leader and would make the roster.

I think Larsen is seriously doubtful to make the team ... he's two years older than other rookies after a Mormon mission, so his low measurables are unlikely to improve much. And he's not a great tackler either ... I can hadly believe he was in Mayock'sTop 5. In fact, I think you might be mistaken there ... ???

No I am not. Check the draft forum. And were are you getting low measurables. He ran 4.7 at his pro day and was top LBperformer on bench press at combine. Plus he was first team PAC-10 player last year and 2nd team two years ago. Lead the conference with 131 tackles. Kid can play, and being 24 isn't that big a deal.

I really don't care what some draft site say this kid is player.

[TonyR]

I suppose I'm uncomfortable with all this "irrational exuberance" the day after. Some guys are acting as if they've never seen a draft before. By that I mean, as just one example, DJ Williams is all that's left from 2004 ... but I'll bet nobody was complaining much about that draft the day after (except wishing we'd traken Steven Jackson). And EVERY draft prior to that one, same thing. Even 2005 is looking sad now ... Myers and Ernster gone, Foxworth and Paymah low-tendered. My point is that - for me at least - I wanna pull back from these guys and not get too excited (except for Clady).

Royal was a major-reach ... they want him, fine. But don't panic at #42. Trade back 10 or 15 slots, and pick up another pick to use on a punter like Drago or Durant (punter and kicker are still g a p i n g holes on this roster). Taking Royal at 42 reminded me of the Dolphins jumping on Ginn last year ... a real eyebrow-raising reach for gamebreaker glory.
Not just DraftCountdown, but several other sites had Lichtensteiger ranked between #4 and #6 center (though he was #1 on one site - compared to Jeff Saturday). We'll see.
Torrian was just a foolish pick. We're awash in backup running backs as it is, with FOUR decent backups, two of which have been moved to FB the past couple years because of the glut (Bell, Sapp). Torrian = Cedric Cobbs, maybe Cecil Sapp. In fact, Cecil Sapp is a good comparison to Torrian, minus the injuries. My objection is that - seeing this glut of backup RBs - why not go with another DT, raising your chances of finding a diamond in the rough at a position of dire need? (We can't stop the freaking run, remember). We may as well have drafted a QB. Again, we'll see.
I like Carlton Powell mostly because he's a DT with run-stopping rep. Some sites diss him though ... http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2008/04/13/nfl-draft-ranking-the-wide-receivers/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.feedburner.com%2F%7Er%2FFo xsports%2Frss%2FCFB%2F%7E3%2F269081049%2FNFL-Draft%3A-Ranking-the-wide-receivers&frame=true
I like Jack Williams because ... major speed + Mayock endorsement = good enough for me (if he can hit).
I hadn't thought about Webster being a no-special teams guys ... that might give Larsen an opening ... but I still doubt he'l make the team. Poor tackler, too slow.
Josh Barett was one of my guys, so I should be happy. BUT ... a 6'2, 225 pound 4.3 40 big hitter falling from a 3rd round grade all the way to the 6th is a big concern.
I like Peyton Hillis, but he is FAR from a traditional blocking FB. That comes from many more sources than just NFLDraftCountdown, that's the consensus - including both Kiper and McShay. Maybe a shorter Patrick Hape. Gimme a Mayock link on Hillis - I'll go with whatever he says (Drek ... you or I could be "adequate" blocking fullbacks in front of McFadden and Felix Jones ::)



Don't get me wrong, I like this draft a LOT. Like I said, B-minus, maybe a B. But there are two very simple reasons why: 1) a blue-chipper in the first, 2) NINE total picks. I can't remember having nine picks. But I'm realistic. If just SIX TOTAL make the team (IR and practice squad included), I'll be jazzed. But I won't pretend all 9 will make the 53-man roster and five will start, like the sentiment in here seems to be.

Great post. I agree that many are overly optimistic about this draft. Chances are we get no more than 3 guys, and probably fewer, who are ever starters out of this bunch and probably 5 or fewer are in the organization in 3 years. That's not a knock on the Broncos or this draft, that's just NFL football.

[27atwater]

He must have been in a hurry to beat Mayock out with his grades, lol. btw ESPN's coverage of the draft sucked. They spent the whole second day talking about the first 2 rounds and would occasionally give you an update of the last 10 picks that happened while they were blabbing about how no receivers were taken in the first round. NFLN and Mayock did a much better job covering the actual draft that was going on, their graphics just sucked.

I just wish NFLNetwork could match ESPN's draft day screen info. I hate ESPN's talking heads, but I kept it there since the graphics/scrolling info do a much better job of keeping ya updated.

[Drek]

I suppose I'm uncomfortable with all this "irrational exuberance" the day after. Some guys are acting as if they've never seen a draft before. By that I mean, as just one example, DJ Williams is all that's left from 2004 ... but I'll bet nobody was complaining much about that draft the day after (except wishing we'd traken Steven Jackson). And EVERY draft prior to that one, same thing. Even 2005 is looking sad now ... Myers and Ernster gone, Foxworth and Paymah low-tendered. My point is that - for me at least - I wanna pull back from these guys and not get too excited (except for Clady).

Royal was a major-reach ... they want him, fine. But don't panic at #42. Trade back 10 or 15 slots, and pick up another pick to use on a punter like Drago or Durant (punter and kicker are still g a p i n g holes on this roster). Taking Royal at 42 reminded me of the Dolphins jumping on Ginn last year ... a real eyebrow-raising reach for gamebreaker glory.
Not just DraftCountdown, but several other sites had Lichtensteiger ranked between #4 and #6 center (though he was #1 on one site - compared to Jeff Saturday). We'll see.
Torrian was just a foolish pick. We're awash in backup running backs as it is, with FOUR decent backups, two of which have been moved to FB the past couple years because of the glut (Bell, Sapp). Torrian = Cedric Cobbs, maybe Cecil Sapp. In fact, Cecil Sapp is a good comparison to Torrian, minus the injuries. My objection is that - seeing this glut of backup RBs - why not go with another DT, raising your chances of finding a diamond in the rough at a position of dire need? (We can't stop the freaking run, remember). We may as well have drafted a QB. Again, we'll see.
I like Carlton Powell mostly because he's a DT with run-stopping rep. Some sites diss him though ... http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2008/04/13/nfl-draft-ranking-the-wide-receivers/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.feedburner.com%2F%7Er%2FFo xsports%2Frss%2FCFB%2F%7E3%2F269081049%2FNFL-Draft%3A-Ranking-the-wide-receivers&frame=true
I like Jack Williams because ... major speed + Mayock endorsement = good enough for me (if he can hit).
I hadn't thought about Webster being a no-special teams guys ... that might give Larsen an opening ... but I still doubt he'l make the team. Poor tackler, too slow.
Josh Barett was one of my guys, so I should be happy. BUT ... a 6'2, 225 pound 4.3 40 big hitter falling from a 3rd round grade all the way to the 6th is a big concern.
I like Peyton Hillis, but he is FAR from a traditional blocking FB. That comes from many more sources than just NFLDraftCountdown, that's the consensus - including both Kiper and McShay. Maybe a shorter Patrick Hape. Gimme a Mayock link on Hillis - I'll go with whatever he says (Drek ... you or I could be "adequate" blocking fullbacks in front of McFadden and Felix Jones ::)



Don't get me wrong, I like this draft a LOT. Like I said, B-minus, maybe a B. But there are two very simple reasons why: 1) a blue-chipper in the first, 2) NINE total picks. I can't remember having nine picks. But I'm realistic. If just SIX TOTAL make the team (IR and practice squad included), I'll be jazzed. But I won't pretend all 9 will make the 53-man roster and five will start, like the sentiment in here seems to be.

Clady and Hillis are the only likely starters in the bunch for next year and almost definitely the year after as well.

And I've never been one to look at our drafts with orange colored glasses. I view the objectively as possible, and in fact I really haven't cared for some of our recent moves (Mo Clarrett over Brandon Jacobs, constantly avoiding taking quality DLs early when they've been available, and yes, I even wanted Reed over Lelie).

But this was actually a very good draft. The last time draft weekend came to a close and I was this satisfied with what Denver did was the '06 draft, and I can't remember the time before that.

The big reason why: We got football players who can contribute. Thats the key. These are all pretty stand up guys in their personal lives who really love football and work at being good at it. Not the standard crop of injury prone or poor effort athletes Shanahan has ran through here in the past. Good guys who want to succeed, thats who we got this year.

Torain wasn't a foolish pick at all. I would've preferred grabbing one of the more noteworthy RBs earlier, but as I said in another thread, if we didn't want to take Stewart or Mendenhall at #12 there really wasn't a good fit. No RB was worth passing up on Royal (major need) for and no stud was left in the 4th round. But we needed some extra power depth at RB, since the only two reliable backups we have are Young and Hall, both speed guys.

Why not Sapp or Bell? Mike Bell isn't going to be on the team after first cuts this year. He didn't show up willing to fight for his job last summer and promptly got in the dog house. He only made it worse with some key fumbles during the season when given rare opportunities. He pissed away his chance by going from a hard worker to a guy who thought he owned the job in one season.

Sapp just isn't very good and now he's getting a little older. We didn't even resign the guy until just a few weeks ago. He'll probably be cut before Bell even will, we clearly didn't care much for him and now we have a superior guy in every way with Hillis.

Torain was a pretty well thought of RB and was looking like a top 3 round lock before a poor senior season plagued with injury slowed him down. He's still a good power back and will let us get younger and stronger at RB depth. Also, any time I read a report on a guy and he's compared to Mike Anderson, I like the idea of adding him to our roster.

I also really wish people would stop calling Royal a reach. If you think that then you must think damn near half the NFL reached on WRs in the 2nd round because Donnie Avery, Jordy Nelson, Dexter Jackson, and some other speedy slot WR types all went in that round as well. You can argue that 2nd round WRs should have #1 potential, but the NFL pretty clearly disagrees, as a lot of teams suddenly value the slot guys who can also return a lot more (wonder why, Wes Welker and Steve smith have tore this league up of late). We desperately needed a guy like Royal, and we got our pick right at the beginning of the WR run. Thats nothing but value.

Here's the link to Hillis' NFL.com profile:
http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/peyton-hillis?id=1980
Highlights:
"and is a good contact-seeker chasing down linebackers by taking proper angles in the second level...Alert to the blitz and stunts, doing a nice job in his kick slide when protecting the pocket."

"Can finesse block with good hand placement or hunker down and knock defenders back when leading on sweeps."

"Undersized for a fullback at the professional level, but does show good power and aggression as a blocker."

From ESPN: "He is technically sound and gives a good effort as a blocker. Gets in good position with solid leverage as a blocker. Does an excellent job of hitting the moving target in space and works hard to sustain once locked on. Shows very good awareness in pass pro."

As a blocker he has one issue, he gets overpowered when lead blocking in the phone booth against bigger LBs. How many FBs don't have that issue though? He's a significant upgrade over any blocking FB we've had here since Griff.

Also, there's potential to improve there, guy put up 26 reps of 225, ran a 4.58, and posted a 30.5" vert at the combine. Those are impressive stats for a power HB, let alone a FB.

Larsen is an underrated guy. Sure he lost a couple years to go on mission, but at the same time that indicates some damn good character and the fact that he came back to AZ and never transfered or gave up shows good dedication. He has good strength and significantly improved on his combine 40 to a respectable time at his pro day so the athletic talent might not come by the truckload with him, but there's enough to work with.

I've also not seen either ESPN or NFL.com describe him as a poor tackler. They both agreed that he is inconsistent wrapping guys up in the open field, but they both liked his interior tackling quite well. The other biggest complaint is that he doesn't play with a lot of power, but NFL.com has a specific comment about him improving there significantly this year, a good sign.

He's a guy who's been out of football for a couple years and hasn't had the benefit of four consecutive collegiate seasons to hone his skills. But he's a high character, vocal leader type with a willingness to work. I'm not willing to ink him into the starting lineup within a couple seasons, but Shanahan apparently has mentioned playing FB to him already, having him be a dual purpose guy backing up both MLB and FB while also being a valuable special teamer? I could see that and like his value there. I think its very reasonable to see him as another Keith Burns type, maybe not good enough to every start an LB, but a guy who could embrace the role of special teamer and become a much needed leader of that unit.

FYI, Scouts Inc. had Larsen projected as an early second day pick, so in the 6th round he does seem like a good value, if projections are your thing.

I have a hard time trusting evaluations by sites other than Scouts Inc. and NFL.com. The gap between the depth to which both of them go in breaking a player down compared to most other non-professional sites is just too substantial. I guess I'm spoiled in that I pawn off my brother's ESPN Insider account and I have two excellent resources at my fingertips without having to poke around, but no one else holds a candle and as I said previously, after seeing smaller site after smaller site say "he's got poor timed speed" and then the guy goes out and leads his position at the 40, 20 shuttle, and 60 shuttle? I have a hard time believing that they've really done their homework.

[SureShot]

Kiper was on Gotley (sp?) ESPN's radio show the Pulse this evening and was a lot more complinetary of the Bronco's draft than in writing. Kiper kept going on and on about building around Cutler and taking the right players to do that. He good things to say about Royal, Hillis, Torain, and Williams and of course Clady. It's hard to get specifics from Kiper on the radio because he talks so fast and so stilted. He must have that new amphetimine-enhanced hair gel.

If Kiper adds anything more to that hair helmet he could become the Juggernaut.
21494

I'm the Juggernaut bitch!

[alanm]

Dude we trading everyone away for all top 11 draft picks next year. Figure we would follow the KC method of SB winning.

Sometimes you just gotta start over. We'll see if it works.

[Kaylore]

I can hadly believe he was in Mayock'sTop 5. In fact, I think you might be mistaken there ... ???
I was initially going to confirm your suspicions and went to look it up to prove the point...and then found this (http://www.baltimoreravens.com/News/Articles/2008/02/Mayocks_Top_Prospects.aspx)

Inside Linebacker
1. Dan Connor - Penn State
2. Curtis Lofton - Oklahoma
3. Spencer Larsen - Arizona
4. Beau Bell - UNLV
5. Jo-Lonn Dunbar - Boston College

So there you go. He dropped off as the draft approached, but at one time he was considered in Mayock's top five.

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

I listen to Kiper on ESPN radio all the time and that guy is so knowledgable about college players it isn't even funny. I don't think Mayok can hold his jock.... Or I guess he could hold Mel's jock if Mel let him that is.

Normally I'd agree with you. But what? I don't know how Kiper's top 100 went but Mayock's top 100 went 90 of 100. Let me repeat that one more time when the 100th player was picked 90 of Mayock's players were picked. Mayock needs to picking draft picks, and start picking lotto numbers.

[lex]

opinion shopping is a wonderful thing.

[wabbit]

I don't understand Kipers' grade.

Hell, I even spotted one...I think it was USA Today...gave Denver an F.

What the hell is that??


The Broncos addressed every need in what appears to be a very effective way.

I had, and still have questions about the second round, but the 1st, then 4th-7th round selections were gold.

Yes, there were some other players I might have preferred here and there, but who the hell am I??

It seems to be a really strong effort, certainly much more than a C+ or F on the surface.

...and it's all just for entertainment purposes anyway...doesn't it take three years to really evaluate these things??

[Taco John]

I am absolutely done with Mel Kiper. His stranglehold on the draft is done and his day is over. There's a new sherriff in town, and he actually tells you *WHY* he is rating the players like he rates them, *WHY* teams are picking the players that they're picking, and *WHY* a move is either a good one or a bad one -- as opposed to just saying it and expecting everyone to accept it just for the fact that "I'm the expert." Er, excuse me... "so-called" expert.

[vailitaliano319]

I think Mel kiper may be related to Bryant Gumbel...

[vailitaliano319]

...furthermore, why is this guy "Mel (I like to use more than the necessary amount of hair-gel called for) Kiper any more knowledgable than any respective fan on the mane. In my opinion our draft was very solid, I dont think that a grade can be put towards a draft class until they preform on the field. What was his "expert" opinion of the '03 draft?

[elsid13]

I was initially going to confirm your suspicions and went to look it up to prove the point...and then found this (http://www.baltimoreravens.com/News/Articles/2008/02/Mayocks_Top_Prospects.aspx)



So there you go. He dropped off as the draft approached, but at one time he was considered in Mayock's top five.

I don't lie to make a point. It also on the mane draft section.

[Dagmar]

http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=Mel_Kiper,_Jr.

[socalorado]

http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=Mel_Kiper,_Jr.

GREAT SITE! I went to Dickpedia and found this great info on assclown

One of Kiper's most memorable contributions to the NFL draft is the "big board," a large chart on which he analyzes the order in which players should be drafted based on incomprehensible, vaguely relevant statistics only Kiper understands (also known as “statis-dicks”).

[socalorado]

It just goes on and on....

Coach favorite
Many coaches and administrators enjoy hearing suggestions from Kiper. One big fan was Indianapolis Colts manager Bill Tobin who praised Kiper saying, "Who in the hell is Mel Kiper, anyway? I mean, here's a guy who criticizes everybody, whoever they take. In my knowledge of him, he's never even put on a jockstrap, he's never been a player, he's never been a coach, he's never been a scout, he's never been an administrator, and all of a sudden, he's an expert. Mel Kiper has no more credentials to do what he's doing than my neighbor, and my neighbor's a postman and he doesn't even have season tickets to the NFL."
Proof of genius
Though a dick, Mel Kiper is an infallible genius when it comes to scouting future NFL talent.

He once snidely remarked of the Colts, "That's why [they] keep picking number two every year," after their 1994 second overall selection. Kiper was widely critical of the Colts’ pick that year, Marshall Faulk, who turned out to be such a bust that he is expected to be inducted into the NFL Hall of Fame in the near future.
In 2005, Kiper praised 8th overall selection, wide receiver Mike Williams, saying, "I'll see you at his Hall of Fame induction." Many people have yet to fully recognize the abilities Kiper saw in Williams. These people include coaches, fans, analysts, referees, the players on the teams he played for and against, and anyone else who has seen him in a football jersey. Williams’ journey to the Hall of Fame suffered a slight detour in 2007 when he stopped playing football and no one wanted to sign him.
In 1999, he touted the potential of Oregon quarterback Akili Smith to exceed at the professional level. Fans have high hopes for Smith to have a great season this year and to make a big statement in his league.
In 1998, Kiper argued that Ryan Leaf, 2nd overall pick, had an attitude that would be an asset in the NFL. He has since become one of professional football's most notable quarterbacks.
In 2001, Kiper predicted a dismal 0-16 season for the New England Patriots. The team finished slightly better than that prediction, managing to win just one Super Bowl the entire season.

[socalorado]

And finally...

Hair
While cultural anthropologists have yet to prove that one’s hair is capable of being a dick in and of itself, it is thought that Kiper’s hair will be the first to hold the honor.

[BroncoInferno]

He once snidely remarked of the Colts, "That's why [they] keep picking number two every year," after their 1994 second overall selection. Kiper was widely critical of the Colts’ pick that year, Marshall Faulk, who turned out to be such a bust that he is expected to be inducted into the NFL Hall of Fame in the near future.

Actually, this isn't true. The Colts had two top 10 picks that year and took Trev Alberts after Faulk. That was the move he bashed. He was critical because they had a need at QB and passed on Dilfer. Although Dilfer is no Hall of Famer, it looks like he called that one pretty well. He's still a dick, though.

[Beantown Bronco]

*cough* nice grade, Kiper *cough*

[Garcia Bronco]

With two OROY's on board I'm gonna go ahead and say Kip-er forked this one up.

[~Crash~]

In a way i agree with kiper i didn't understand why we picked up Ryan Torain we could of took a DT or DE with that pick,how many RBs does shanny need...I really like Royal and Hillis and i have some concerns about Clady.

Well right now we need atleast 2 a game :spit:

[theAPAOps5]

Thats why I watch NFL network when it comes to the draft. THey have by far the best draft guru in the business. Mel Kyper is an idiot.

[Peoples Champ]

I bet Tom Brady and Terrel Davis got D's too.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

In 2005, Kiper praised 8th overall selection, wide receiver Mike Williams, saying, "I'll see you at his Hall of Fame induction." Many people have yet to fully recognize the abilities Kiper saw in Williams. These people include coaches, fans, analysts, referees, the players on the teams he played for and against, and anyone else who has seen him in a football jersey. Williams’ journey to the Hall of Fame suffered a slight detour in 2007 when he stopped playing football and no one wanted to sign him.


First, Antrell Rolle went 8th overall that year, a little research is always your friend. There's also a reason he went 10th overall after taking a year off from football, after he was encouraged to leave after his sophomore year at USC. The HoF comment was obviously over the top, but saying no one else saw anything in him is just flat out retarded, his draft position in itself says otherwise.

I swear to God, some people who start their own website should really think things through a little better before they start posting their own ****.

[SpringStein]

I don't understand Kipers' grade.

Hell, I even spotted one...I think it was USA Today...gave Denver an F.

What the hell is that??


The Broncos addressed every need in what appears to be a very effective way.

I had, and still have questions about the second round, but the 1st, then 4th-7th round selections were gold.

Yes, there were some other players I might have preferred here and there, but who the hell am I??

It seems to be a really strong effort, certainly much more than a C+ or F on the surface.

...and it's all just for entertainment purposes anyway...doesn't it take three years to really evaluate these things??

Wherever you are our friend, I hope your questions have been answered. ;)

[~Crash~]

Well for most drafts it take years to see if you did good but this year it is safe to say A , possibly A+ time will tell if the + should be there ...

[socalorado]

First, Antrell Rolle went 8th overall that year, a little research is always your friend. There's also a reason he went 10th overall after taking a year off from football, after he was encouraged to leave after his sophomore year at USC. The HoF comment was obviously over the top, but saying no one else saw anything in him is just flat out retarded, his draft position in itself says otherwise.

I swear to God, some people who start their own website should really think things through a little better before they start posting their own ****.

Of course people saw "something" in MWilliams. he was a good player in college.
Its the annointing of the player as a HOF or as he did with Leinart, making him out to be this absolutely great QB that is going to be the next Tom Brady. Kipers a moron.
He said Ryan Leaf, who is now considered the archetype of the NFL flop, was a sure star. “In terms of leadership ability,” Kiper Jr. wrote, “Leaf is respected by his teammates who realize there isn’t a tougher, more confident QB out there.” Leaf was a head case who imploded. Shall we continue?

For a man who once stated, “I start getting ready [for the next draft] three days after the end of this draft,” he has said. “Once I put a final exclamation point on this draft by grading each team, that’s when the next draft begins for me.” by repetition, Kiper Jr. tries to convince us that he has some greater insight – and that we should care.

Kiper= Moron

[socalorado]

http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=Mel_Kiper%2C_Jr

While cultural anthropologists have yet to prove that one’s hair is capable of being a dick in and of itself, it is thought that Kiper’s hair will be the first to hold the honor.

[Punisher]

Well right now we need atleast 2 a game :spit:

I know Ha! But my concerns about Clady went out the Door because in my eyes hes a top 5 LT

[TheChamp24]

Man, what a great draft this is turning out to be.
I was estatic with the Clady pick, didn't think he'd be this good this early though.
Royal I highly questioned, but dude is turning out to be a legit WR in the league with good return skills.
Hillis, a sure fire awesome FB.

[Punisher]

Man, what a great draft this is turning out to be.
I was estatic with the Clady pick, didn't think he'd be this good this early though.
Royal I highly questioned, but dude is turning out to be a legit WR in the league with good return skills.
Hillis, a sure fire awesome FB.
1996,2006 and 2008 Best of Shanny :approve: and Kiper is a dumbass Mayock has better insight

[BroncoMan4ever]

Well for most drafts it take years to see if you did good but this year it is safe to say A , possibly A+ time will tell if the + should be there ...

i don't think A+ is possible considering that Torain in the 5th was a waste as he is injury prone and his 68 yards, 1TD and 12 carries are probably his last in the NFL, and we could have used another Defensive player

[Dagmar]

i don't think A+ is possible considering that Torain in the 5th was a waste as he is injury prone and his 68 yards, 1TD and 12 carries are probably his last in the NFL, and we could have used another Defensive player

http://static.pyzam.com/img/funnypics/0/pyzamOmgWtf.jpg

[Popps]

Jeesh, I'm pretty tough on our drafts... but Clady/Royal and Hillis alone ensure us at least a B-. If ANYone else pans out, we're moving up towards an A, imo.

Now, if you factor needs, maybe we screwed up in that regard, but just purely on talent, it looks pretty impressive.

[Atwater His Ass]

i don't think A+ is possible considering that Torain in the 5th was a waste as he is injury prone and his 68 yards, 1TD and 12 carries are probably his last in the NFL, and we could have used another Defensive player

Although I agree that Torain is probably done, you can't really say this yet.

[Popps]

To me, a successful draft means one stud... 1 or 2 contributors as starters or back-ups, and maybe a ST/developmental guy. Expecting much more than that isn't too realistic.

[SoCalBronco]

To me, a successful draft means one stud... 1 or 2 contributors as starters or back-ups, and maybe a ST/developmental guy. Expecting much more than that isn't too realistic.

Pat Kirwan did a study on this awhile back. He based it on starters only, however. He found that on average, the Seahawks were the best drafting team because over the course of the years in the study, they averaged 3 starters per draft, which was the best ratio in the league. Kirwan noted that the league average was 2 starters per draft.

It would have been better to further develop the record in terms of the quality level of the starters but I still found his study to be instructive just as a common frame of reference.

In the last three years, Denver has done a fabulous job if those numbers are correct. We hit 3 starters in 2008. We hit 2 in 2007 (it would be improper to classify this as "average", per the Kirwan study, since Denver did not go 2 for 7, rather they hit 2 on only 4 choices total) and ofcourse went off the charts with 4.5 starters in 2006 (Scheffler is the "half" starter). If Kirwan did a supplementary study for the last few years, I suspect that we'd be at the very top, or at worst, quite close to the very top.

[Popps]

Pat Kirwan did a study on this awhile back. He based it on starters only, however. He found that on average, the Seahawks were the best drafting team because over the course of the years in the study, they averaged 3 starters per draft, which was the best ratio in the league. Kirwan noted that the league average was 2 starters per draft.

It would have been better to further develop the record in terms of the quality level of the starters but I still found his study to be instructive just as a common frame of reference.

In the last three years, Denver has done a fabulous job if those numbers are correct. We hit 3 starters in 2008. We hit 2 in 2007 (it would be improper to classify this as "average", per the Kirwan study, since Denver did not go 2 for 7, rather they hit 2 on only 4 choices total) and ofcourse went off the charts with 4.5 starters in 2006 (Scheffler is the "half" starter). If Kirwan did a supplementary study for the last few years, I suspect that we'd be at the very top, or at worst, quite close to the very top.

Interesting stuff.

I'd agree that we're very proficient at drafting offensive players. However, we're almost inversely inefficient on the other side of the ball.

Honestly... imagine this team if Shanahan would just put his ego aside and turn over the entire defensive operation to someone who knew what the **** they were doing. I mean drafting, coaching, scouting... all of it.

[SoCalBronco]

Interesting stuff.

I'd agree that we're very proficient at drafting offensive players. However, we're almost inversely inefficient on the other side of the ball.

Honestly... imagine this team if Shanahan would just put his ego aside and turn over the entire defensive operation to someone who knew what the **** they were doing. I mean drafting, coaching, scouting... all of it.

We've certainly had more offensive contributions come from our recent drafts than defensive ones, but I don't think its purely a talent evaluation issue (although I do agree that in general, we probably are better offensive talent evaluators than vice versa). There are some other variables that help to explain the difference, at least in part.

We've attributed more resources in the draft to offense than defense, so it would make sense that we'd hit more often on offense. In the last three drafts for example, we've drafted 12 offensive players, as compared to 8 defensive players. In addition, we've devoted more valuable picks to the offense as opposed to the defense, as well. The difference on average has been about a half round higher of value during this time span. The average draft round for an offensive player during this time has been 3.67, while the defense was 4.13.

[Popps]

We've certainly had more offensive contributions come from our recen than defensef.

I love posts like your last two. Great job pulling out the numbers.

I've long complained about the lopsided approach we've taken, and you can definitely apply it to free agency, to an extent. We made a big move for Champ, but outside from that... haven't done much since via trades/FA.

You're right, our big draft day moves and FA moves have all been on offense, and the results are self-evident.

[Dagmar]

I'm sure it's been mentioned but Darrent Williams was an excellent corner. Leagues ahead of Bly.

[Natedog24]

Awesome reread, great bump ;D

[SoCalBronco]

I love posts like your last two. Great job pulling out the numbers.

I've long complained about the lopsided approach we've taken, and you can definitely apply it to free agency, to an extent. We made a big move for Champ, but outside from that... haven't done much since via trades/FA.

You're right, our big draft day moves and FA moves have all been on offense, and the results are self-evident.

I would agree that we've been a bit lopsided on offense, recently, although I think that sort of reflects a swing of the pendulum. Some of this is understandable frustration on Shanny's part as to the prior strategy we tried. When the trade was made for Bailey, there was much discussion about our shift in philosophy to building up the defense and trying to have a workmanlike, no mistake Jake offense that would be the complimentary aspect of the team rather than the fulcrum of it. During the Coyer era, we devoted a good deal of resources to the defense. A first round LB in DJ (and a 2nd rounder spent on a LB the year before), bringing back Ian, resigning Al, in all, a great deal of resources were tied up at LB. Ofcourse, Bailey was the big signing in the secondary and Lynch as well. Most of the 05 draft was assigned to the defensive backfield as well. The only area where there wasnt a huge overall investment was on the DL, but even there they did make a single big investment in Gardener, which failed. We tried this for a few years, trying to hold people to 17 or so a game, and hoping that our otherwise ordinary back would be solid due to the system, that Jake would manage the game and that the OL wouldn't get completely outclassed in short yardage, red zone and goalline situations, so that we could score 23,24 a game and be consistently about a TD better than the opponent. Well...it took us places, but we got to the point where it was clear that we could not win it all this way. We could be a playoff team, but not a whole lot more than that outside of 2005 where alot of balls bounced our way.

Understandably, Shanny felt that it was time to go back to strengthening his side of the ball which had been neglected, so he went out and started putting the money into offense. Trading for big time WRs, moving up for franchise QBs, drafting a TE pretty high, 1st round OT, 2nd round WR etc. as you have correctly noted.

I agree with you that it would be best to incrementally work on both at the same time, rather than deciding for a 2-3 year stretch that we're really going to build up one at the expense of the other until it shifts 180 degrees and goes back and forth like that.

[Dagmar]

I would agree that we've been a bit lopsided on offense, recently, although I think that sort of reflects a swing of the pendulum. Some of this is understandable frustration on Shanny's part as to the prior strategy we tried. When the trade was made for Bailey, there was much discussion about our shift in philosophy to building up the defense and trying to have a workmanlike, no mistake Jake offense that would be the complimentary aspect of the team rather than the fulcrum of it. During the Coyer era, we devoted a good deal of resources to the defense. A first round LB in DJ (and a 2nd rounder spent on a LB the year before), bringing back Ian, resigning Al, in all, a great deal of resources were tied up at LB. Ofcourse, Bailey was the big signing in the secondary and Lynch as well. Most of the 05 draft was assigned to the defensive backfield as well. The only area where there wasnt a huge overall investment was on the DL, but even there they did make a single big investment in Gardener, which failed. We tried this for a few years, trying to hold people to 17 or so a game, and hoping that our otherwise ordinary back would be solid due to the system, that Jake would manage the game and that the OL wouldn't get completely outclassed in short yardage, red zone and goalline situations, so that we could score 23,24 a game and be consistently about a TD better than the opponent. Well...it took us places, but we got to the point where it was clear that we could not win it all this way. We could be a playoff team, but not a whole lot more than that outside of 2005 where alot of balls bounced our way.

Understandably, Shanny felt that it was time to go back to strengthening his side of the ball which had been neglected, so he went out and started putting the money into offense. Trading for big time WRs, moving up for franchise QBs, drafting a TE pretty high, 1st round OT, 2nd round WR etc. as you have correctly noted.

I agree with you that it would be best to incrementally work on both at the same time, rather than deciding for a 2-3 year stretch that we're really going to build up one at the expense of the other until it shifts 180 degrees and goes back and forth like that.

Ok.

I am done.

I have been visiting this site for my entire lifetime in the USA (5 years).

WHY ARE YOU NOT EMPLOYED BY THE BRONCOS????

[Dagmar]

I am not joking in the previous post.

[Atwater His Ass]

I would agree that we've been a bit lopsided on offense, recently, although I think that sort of reflects a swing of the pendulum. Some of this is understandable frustration on Shanny's part as to the prior strategy we tried. When the trade was made for Bailey, there was much discussion about our shift in philosophy to building up the defense and trying to have a workmanlike, no mistake Jake offense that would be the complimentary aspect of the team rather than the fulcrum of it. During the Coyer era, we devoted a good deal of resources to the defense. A first round LB in DJ (and a 2nd rounder spent on a LB the year before), bringing back Ian, resigning Al, in all, a great deal of resources were tied up at LB. Ofcourse, Bailey was the big signing in the secondary and Lynch as well. Most of the 05 draft was assigned to the defensive backfield as well. The only area where there wasnt a huge overall investment was on the DL, but even there they did make a single big investment in Gardener, which failed. We tried this for a few years, trying to hold people to 17 or so a game, and hoping that our otherwise ordinary back would be solid due to the system, that Jake would manage the game and that the OL wouldn't get completely outclassed in short yardage, red zone and goalline situations, so that we could score 23,24 a game and be consistently about a TD better than the opponent. Well...it took us places, but we got to the point where it was clear that we could not win it all this way. We could be a playoff team, but not a whole lot more than that outside of 2005 where alot of balls bounced our way.

Understandably, Shanny felt that it was time to go back to strengthening his side of the ball which had been neglected, so he went out and started putting the money into offense. Trading for big time WRs, moving up for franchise QBs, drafting a TE pretty high, 1st round OT, 2nd round WR etc. as you have correctly noted.

I agree with you that it would be best to incrementally work on both at the same time, rather than deciding for a 2-3 year stretch that we're really going to build up one at the expense of the other until it shifts 180 degrees and goes back and forth like that.

I can't agree with all of this. We got to the AFCCG (beating the all might Patriots along the way) with this approach, where Plummer and the defense both completely imploded. We could have won the SB that year and then what? Things would be a lot different around here, maybe worse, maybe better, hard to say, but I know a lot of people would be pretty happy with a 3rd SB trophy sitting in the case.

I think the body of work is better judged over the course of that season and not just one game (the AFCCG). Shanahan of course made a decision that it wouldn't work after that game mostly because I think that just isn't his style to play football that way, which is all that matters presently, but I'm not so sure we were that far away with the Plummer approach.

[snowspot66]

We were a lot further than you think. Do you remember how lucky we were that year? Almost no injuries and fumbles and INTs coming left and right. We got almost every bounce that year. We could have beaten the Stealers. The bounces were there but we didn't execute. Since then we have had some seriously ****ty luck and injuries have been horrible.

[broncogary]

Pat Kirwan did a study on this awhile back. He based it on starters only, however. He found that on average, the Seahawks were the best drafting team because over the course of the years in the study, they averaged 3 starters per draft, which was the best ratio in the league. Kirwan noted that the league average was 2 starters per draft.

It would have been better to further develop the record in terms of the quality level of the starters but I still found his study to be instructive just as a common frame of reference.

In the last three years, Denver has done a fabulous job if those numbers are correct. We hit 3 starters in 2008. We hit 2 in 2007 (it would be improper to classify this as "average", per the Kirwan study, since Denver did not go 2 for 7, rather they hit 2 on only 4 choices total) and ofcourse went off the charts with 4.5 starters in 2006 (Scheffler is the "half" starter). If Kirwan did a supplementary study for the last few years, I suspect that we'd be at the very top, or at worst, quite close to the very top.

Our defense is so crappy now, any draft pick we spend on defense is likely to become a starter.

[Dos Rios]

Clady, Royal and Hillis make a good draft by themselves.

One or more of Lichtensteiger, Williams, Powell and (maybe) Larsen could develop into a starter in the next 2-3 years. Torain's talent is there, just a big injury question. Only Barrett looks like a miss out of nine picks.

And then there's undrafted, where Denver has always done well. Woodyard and Kern are legit. Aldridge, Polumbus, who else has a shot?

Broncos should have 10 players from 2008 still on the team in 3 years, maybe 5 or more for their careers if money works out. That's crazy success.

[Beantown Bronco]

I'm sure it's been mentioned but Darrent Williams was an excellent corner. Leagues ahead of Bly.

Couldn't disagree more.

[Cito Pelon]

I would agree that we've been a bit lopsided on offense, recently, although I think that sort of reflects a swing of the pendulum. Some of this is understandable frustration on Shanny's part as to the prior strategy we tried. When the trade was made for Bailey, there was much discussion about our shift in philosophy to building up the defense and trying to have a workmanlike, no mistake Jake offense that would be the complimentary aspect of the team rather than the fulcrum of it. During the Coyer era, we devoted a good deal of resources to the defense. A first round LB in DJ (and a 2nd rounder spent on a LB the year before), bringing back Ian, resigning Al, in all, a great deal of resources were tied up at LB. Ofcourse, Bailey was the big signing in the secondary and Lynch as well. Most of the 05 draft was assigned to the defensive backfield as well. The only area where there wasnt a huge overall investment was on the DL, but even there they did make a single big investment in Gardener, which failed. We tried this for a few years, trying to hold people to 17 or so a game, and hoping that our otherwise ordinary back would be solid due to the system, that Jake would manage the game and that the OL wouldn't get completely outclassed in short yardage, red zone and goalline situations, so that we could score 23,24 a game and be consistently about a TD better than the opponent. Well...it took us places, but we got to the point where it was clear that we could not win it all this way. We could be a playoff team, but not a whole lot more than that outside of 2005 where alot of balls bounced our way.

Understandably, Shanny felt that it was time to go back to strengthening his side of the ball which had been neglected, so he went out and started putting the money into offense. Trading for big time WRs, moving up for franchise QBs, drafting a TE pretty high, 1st round OT, 2nd round WR etc. as you have correctly noted.

I agree with you that it would be best to incrementally work on both at the same time, rather than deciding for a 2-3 year stretch that we're really going to build up one at the expense of the other until it shifts 180 degrees and goes back and forth like that.

Yah, Shanny really had to go O high in some of the recent drafts. Even after those high O picks in '06 and '08, Denver has drafted D players 25 out of the top 39 picks from '99-'08, and 21 of the top 29 draft picks from '99-'05 were D players.

It looks right now like the pendulum deal you don't like will be back though next year. It's hard to get away from it when the D isn't looking real good, but maybe the O can go without too much attention. We'll see. The draft is a long way away.

As for the '08 draft, it looks pretty good already. To have superb rookie starters from snap one like Clady & Royal is awesome. Add in Hillis and Larsen who have been strong contributors, that's icing on the cake. Add in Kory & JMFW making the roster, plus Torain who is a good back but star-crossed at this point. It was a very good draft.

[Cito Pelon]

Clady, Royal and Hillis make a good draft by themselves.

One or more of Lichtensteiger, Williams, Powell and (maybe) Larsen could develop into a starter in the next 2-3 years. Torain's talent is there, just a big injury question. Only Barrett looks like a miss out of nine picks.

And then there's undrafted, where Denver has always done well. Woodyard and Kern are legit. Aldridge, Polumbus, who else has a shot?

Broncos should have 10 players from 2008 still on the team in 3 years, maybe 5 or more for their careers if money works out. That's crazy success.

Good points.

[Killericon]

Couldn't disagree more.

People around here were absolutely ripping into Darrent in his final season. I know that's it good to honour his memory, but he wasn't an "excellent corner" by any stretch.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Broncos should have 10 players from 2008 still on the team in 3 years, maybe 5 or more for their careers if money works out. That's crazy success.

People were saying the same thing at this point about the '02 and '03 drafts, but now those drafts are the height of Shanahan's incompetence according to some. Let's not jump the gun.

[broncocalijohn]

I bet Tom Brady and Terrel Davis got D's too.

i do remember us not getting a great draft grade that year. I still have my call to Jim ROme's show after he bashed our draft that year and I reminded him to take a look at the Raiders who wasted a pick on a Mormon that stated he would never play on Sunday. Rome told me that I can spin it any way I want that it wasnt a good draft. TD and Chamberlain werent bad picks late in the 2nd day if I recall.

[broncocalijohn]

People around here were absolutely ripping into Darrent in his final season. I know that's it good to honour his memory, but he wasn't an "excellent corner" by any stretch.

I was one of those and wanted Paymah to get more time. I probably realize now that Darrent had more potential. Hell, we got Bly in there now.

[DivineLegion]

People around here were absolutely ripping into Darrent in his final season. I know that's it good to honour his memory, but he wasn't an "excellent corner" by any stretch.

D-Will was a hell of alot better than Bly. They have about the same coverage abillity the big diffrence lies in Darrents tackling and big play capability. Dre had big play capapbility when he was younger but hes since lost a step...D Will on the other hand was 24 and was just begining to come into his own.

[NFLBRONCO]

I think Den draft is a A

We have gotten real solid play from Clady Royal and Hillis to me that warrants a high grade.

[DBroncos4life]

D-Will was a hell of alot better than Bly. They have about the same coverage abillity the big diffrence lies in Darrents tackling and big play capability. Dre had big play capapbility when he was younger but hes since lost a step...D Will on the other hand was 24 and was just begining to come into his own.

Can't say that D-Will had many fans before he got shot. Most people here wanted him benched. He still would have developed into a good DB but its puzzling to me how many people forget just how poor he was playing.

[Beantown Bronco]

D-Will was a hell of alot better than Bly. They have about the same coverage abillity the big diffrence lies in Darrents tackling and big play capability. Dre had big play capapbility when he was younger but hes since lost a step...D Will on the other hand was 24 and was just begining to come into his own.

Bly today is better than Darrent at 24. How much better, who knows.

But Bly at 24 was 10x the player that Darrent at 24 was. It's not even close.

[Muddled]

Can't say that D-Will had many fans before he got shot. Most people here wanted him benched. He still would have developed into a good DB but its puzzling to me how many people forget just how poor he was playing.

When I logged in crazy hungover and saw all the RIP threads, I thought they were figuratively speaking 'cause Darrent had played such a bad game he'd never play for Denver again or sth, he'd become that big a scapegoat that season, odd how everyone has totally forgotten that in this tragedy

[BroncoFiend]

When I logged in crazy hungover and saw all the RIP threads, I thought they were figuratively speaking 'cause Darrent had played such a bad game he'd never play for Denver again or sth, he'd become that big a scapegoat that season, odd how everyone has totally forgotten that in this tragedy

True, but at the time people were forgetting that he was young and often targeted because of Champ, he was developing well. Too often fans want to kick a guy out of town too early. Heck there were (are?) plenty on this board wanting Cutler gone after a few bad weeks.

[Mountain Bronco]

D-Will was an average corner who got beat often for big plays, much like Bly. It is cool to pump him up now, because of a tragedy, but he was blasted around here for a long time.

As for this draft, so far so good. With just Clady it should be an A. It isn't often you can land a franchise LT, especially without a top 5 pick.

[epicSocialism4tw]

D-Will was an average corner who got beat often for big plays, much like Bly. It is cool to pump him up now, because of a tragedy, but he was blasted around here for a long time.

As for this draft, so far so good. With just Clady it should be an A. It isn't often you can land a franchise LT, especially without a top 5 pick.

It doesnt matter that he was "blasted" around here. If it isnt a QB, most of these folks couldnt even tell you what position the guy played.

Darrent was a playmaker. A very good one.

No need to undersell him because of the opinions of uneducated people on a website. The coaches knew what he was.

[theAPAOps5]

DWill got beat because the DL sucked ass. Yeah he gave up big plays but all our Corners have, ALL of them.

[Beantown Bronco]

DWill got beat because the DL sucked ass. Yeah he gave up big plays but all our Corners have, ALL of them.

He played behind a far better line than Bly has been playing behind....yet Bly doesn't seem to get a pass from too many here.

[KCStud]

Clady has been really solid. Arguably the best LT to be chosen. Just a good year for LT's in general. Long, Clady and Albert have been outstanding.
Royal is good too. He is quickly becoming one of the best #2 WR's in the NFL.
Hillis has been good.

I would say B+

[epicSocialism4tw]

Clady has been really solid. Arguably the best LT to be chosen. Just a good year for LT's in general. Long, Clady and Albert have been outstanding.
Royal is good too. He is quickly becoming one of the best #2 WR's in the NFL.
Hillis has been good.

I would say B+

Clady is the best tackle from a draft of excellent OL'men. That itself should get you a B+

Couple that with Royal, who has just destroyed a few teams this season, and you have at least an A.

Throw in Hillis, who has been a contributor as well, and you have an A+.

Three solid contributors on offense from one draft? Very difficult to accomplish. Especially guys playing at the all-pro level of Clady, and the rook of the year level of Royal.

[Kaylore]

This was a great read. ;D he he

[SoCalBronco]

It looks right now like the pendulum deal you don't like will be back though next year. It's hard to get away from it when the D isn't looking real good, but maybe the O can go without too much attention. We'll see. The draft is a long way away.

.

I agree that the pendulum will probably wildly swing back in 2009 from a drafting perspective. From a practical perspective we can't afford to balance it out right now because all that is needed on defense. We've sort of forced ourselves into the situation where we have to keep playing the pendulum game just due to how bad the defense has become.

Now, all isn't lost here. This is one of the many reasons I have been strongly in favor of going balls to the wall to acquire as many picks as possible, so that we can have a massive infusion of talent on the defense, while at the same time trying to make sure that we leave a little bit for the offense so that we don't get stuck in this pendulum cycle. There's gotta be enough ammo to give the offense at least one or two slices of the pie and the offense needs it to. There is virtually no depth on the offensive line. The starters are doing an outstanding job, especially the young ones, but the whole offense is riding dangerously on the hope that no one will get hurt on the OL. Our backup OTs are Pears, who suffers from the twin problems of having injury issues this year in addition to his lack of competence in general, and a UDFA. That's it. That's what we have as our depth at OT at this time. There's very little on the interior as well so far as quality depth is concerned. We've got a rookie who is developing and that's (more or less) it. There's no depth there and we have Nalen's retirement pending. Another interior lineman is required relatively early in the draft (Rd. 4ish) and another backup OT is required somewhere on Day 2.

Obviously, most of us see the glaring problem at RB. I think most would agree that we are still one big time stud buffalo in the backfield away from being truly dominant. It reopens the play-action game, it opens the rollout game, the reverse game, it forces the opponent into one safety high defenses, which are generally weaker against the pass, as opposed to two safety high defenses. I'd also argue that another reciever is required in the middle area of the draft as well given Stokley's age and the fact that there's really no one behind him worth anything of value (including DJax). Again, we're fine in the starting two, but after that, there's nothing when you think about Stokley's age. So we have a situation where the offense needs to be addressed here. You are hoping (and so am I) that the O can go for awhile without too much attention but I'm not sure that this is the case. At least 3 and probably 4 picks need to be devoted to it.

Ofcourse, the defense needs a bunch of picks devoted to it. Another DT is required. I'd submit that two new DEs are required. It would appear at at the least one more LB is required. Another CB is required for depth first and foremost (Paymah will be a FA and he has acquitted himself fairly well the last few weeks so I suspect that there will be offers for him to start by various clubs in the lower third to lower quarter in the league so far as pass defense goes) and also due to Bailey and Bly's slowly creeping up age issue. I'd say virtually all of us would like to see the team add two safeties in the draft as well despite having some young prospects already on the team in Rogers and Barrett. We're already at 10 picks here and mind you, I am referring to 10 quality picks. We have 9 in total, but two of them are presently 7th rounders and two of them are presently 5th rounders. What's needed to really address all these things are additional selections around the 3rd and 4th round, not at the tail end of the draft where we are essentially just scooping up the prime UDFAs.

This is the major problem right now. How can we address all the defensive issues and still make sure we can devote 3 or 4 picks for the offense? The FO needs to somehow get the ammo to do it all. It will be a difficult task because there are not alot of replaceables on the roster that people would be interested in trading for. In addition, Shanahan has always been hard headed about getting value in trades down, which is stupid. We should be willing to forego the usual and customary premium, over and above equal chart value, in a trade down. In fact, we should be willing to GIVE UP SOME CHART VALUE in order to facilitate a trade down. It does not have to be an equal trade. You have to make it attractive for the other team. So do it. There's no need to be macho about it. If we have to give up some more chart value than we recieve in order to accomodate a trade down for decent quantity (not a bunch of 7ths), so be it.

This is what must be done. This is how we can avoid the pendulum effect because I can't agree that the offense will be fine without more attention.

[KCStud]

[QUOTE=McSkillet;2162363]Clady is the best tackle from a draft of excellent OL'men. That itself should get you a B+[\QUOTE]

Disagree. I would still take Long. Have you seen what kind of lanes he is making for Williams and Brown? They almost always run to his side and he can block anybody

[SoCalBronco]

[QUOTE=McSkillet;2162363]Clady is the best tackle from a draft of excellent OL'men. That itself should get you a B+[\QUOTE]

Disagree. I would still take Long. Have you seen what kind of lanes he is making for Williams and Brown? They almost always run to his side and he can block anybody

Long is probably a better run blocker than Clady at this point, but there's no question Clady is the better pass protector.

[Beantown Bronco]

There's gotta be enough ammo to give the offense at least one or two slices of the pie and the offense needs it to.

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[Peoples Champ]

Now that Larsen and Hillis are out on the national stage, with Ryan Clady peforming like a veteran, and Torrian looked great minus all the injuries. Jack Williams looks like he has potential.


I guess its easier looking back at it. But Come on Mel, at least a B

[Peoples Champ]

Now that Larsen and Hillis are out on the national stage, with Ryan Clady peforming like a veteran, and Torrian looked great minus all the injuries. Jack Williams looks like he has potential.


I guess its easier looking back at it. But Come on Mel, at least a B



Aww man I forgot the Man Eddie Royal, how could I? Eddie Royal is the truth.

[Play2win]

Aww man I forgot the Man Eddie Royal, how could I? Eddie Royal is the truth.

because he acts like he has been playing in the league for 4 or 5 years... :thumbsup:

[Beantown Bronco]

Eddie Royal is the truth.

I think you're confusing him with this guy....

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[Peoples Champ]

I think you're confusing him with this guy....

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good point