Great Mike Lombardi Article (Denver notes)

[bpc]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/nfl/specials/draft/2008/04/24/lombardi.iwould/index.html

If I worked for the Broncos, I would ...
Think big. The Broncos in the late '90s had great success building an offensive line with quick, smallish athletes. They won two Super Bowls with this approach. They had a dynamic running game led by an outstanding running back, which highlighted their play action and bootleg passing game. But times have changed in the NFL. The Broncos are no longer the standard for how to run the ball. Denver ranked in the top five in only nine of the 126 offensive categories last season. Much of their poor offensive production in the past two years is due to the lack of size and power in their offensive line.

Last season, in the two games against the San Diego Chargers, who happen to be a very big physical defensive team, Denver scored a total of six points. Against the stronger Jacksonville Jaguars, they scored 14 and mustered only 47 yards rushing. At times during the 2007 season when playing the bigger, more powerful teams, the Broncos looked like a 2A high school team trying to step up in competition to beat a 5A team. They were simply overmatched in the line.

It is critical in the NFL to have symmetry with your personnel. Right now, the Broncos don't have that fluid feel to their offense. They have a tremendous drop-back passer in Jay Cutler, but a smallish offensive line. The two pieces don't work well together.

Cutler is at his best when he can stand behind the center and throw the ball all over the field. He has very unique skills that can eventually lead a team to the Super Bowl, but he needs to have an offensive line that can highlight those skills. The Broncos need to acquire bigger bodies to help protect Cutler, not only to throw the ball down the field but also to control the line of scrimmage.

Cutler was uncanny last year in his ability to throw the ball with defensive lineman all around his legs. But Cutler took too many unnecessary hits and the Broncos needs to do a better job of securing him in the pocket.

Many teams in the NFL stole the Broncos approach to running the ball, now the Broncos need to steal other teams' approach to rebuilding their offensive line. This draft is critical for the Broncos to add size if they want to compete with the big, physical teams in the AFC.



Seems like Lombardi loves J. Stewart... however he feels the right choice for Denver is to put some blockers in front of Cutler. {{{{I AGREE}}}}} Also interesting to note is that Lombardi, who recently worked in Denver, makes no mention to any of their tackles on the roster right now being the guy that can protect Cutler's back at LT.

[TheReverend]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=67924

[bpc]

Thanks. Bump it back up.

Hopefully this helps all would-be draftkniks understand which direction this organization needs to go. It's a well know fact in many NFL circles why we got our ass kicked so bad last year and it wasn't because of our HB's or even our WR's.

Our OL couldn't keep players off our franchise QB. Until that changes, we're looking at 7-9, 8-8 seasons.

[TheReverend]

Thanks. Bump it back up.

Hopefully this helps all would-be draftkniks understand which direction this organization needs to go. It's a well know fact in many NFL circles why we got our ass kicked so bad last year and it wasn't because of our HB's or even our WR's.

Our OL couldn't keep players off our franchise QB. Until that changes, we're looking at 7-9, 8-8 seasons.

Time will tell. I've got faith in the organization to make a better decision than I, or anyone else here, could.

[Punisher]

Nice Read

[NFLBRONCO]

Thanks. Bump it back up.

Hopefully this helps all would-be draftkniks understand which direction this organization needs to go. It's a well know fact in many NFL circles why we got our ass kicked so bad last year and it wasn't because of our HB's or even our WR's.

Our OL couldn't keep players off our franchise QB. Until that changes, we're looking at 7-9, 8-8 seasons.

I agree OL needs upgrades and if we go that way great. Do you think Denver likes every first round OT? I doubt it If they don't go OT I want RB or trade down.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Time will tell. I've got faith in the organization to make a better decision than I, or anyone else here, could.
Why is that?

[TheReverend]

Why is that?

We read articles about players. They're watching them at practice and in workouts.

We speculate about health and recovery times. They're taking professional opinions from the top specialists on the planet that are treating them.

We watch at best whatever college games we can see, listen to NFL radio and scour reports of the senior bowl and pro days. They watch scout tape and take opinions from guys that are balls deep on these kids by the time they hit their sophomore year.

[CBF1]

Is it ground hog day ??? with this and all the D Robertson threads today, I feel like I am running in circles.

[footstepsfrom#27]

We read articles about players. They're watching them at practice and in workouts.

We speculate about health and recovery times. They're taking professional opinions from the top specialists on the planet that are treating them.

We watch at best whatever college games we can see, listen to NFL radio and scour reports of the senior bowl and pro days. They watch scout tape and take opinions from guys that are balls deep on these kids by the time they hit their sophomore year.
And yet in spite of all that their draft day record is shoddy to say the least. In any case, what's exposure to the players and access to scouting or medical experts got to do with the fact that Shanahan is stuck in the past and can't see that his line is getting ****kicked in the face game after game by bigger more physical D-lines? Coaches historically seem to be reluctant to change what's worked for them in the past, even when the strategy has long since shown that it isn't working. Bottom line...it isn't just us fans that see this; seasoned NFL analysts and no doubt other coaches know that our smallish line is incapable of moving the big D-lines off the ball and it's reflected every time we get inside the red zone. So from that standpoint...no, they don't necessarily deserve unquestioned trust nor are they able to see this clearer than we are.

[TheReverend]

And yet in spite of all that their draft day record is shoddy to say the least. In any case, what's exposure to the players and access to scouting or medical experts got to do with the fact that Shanahan is stuck in the past and can't see that his line is getting *****icked in the face game after game by bigger more physical D-lines? Coaches historically seem to be reluctant to change what's worked for them in the past, even when the strategy has long since shown that it isn't working. Bottom line...it isn't just us fans that see this; seasoned NFL analysts and no doubt other coaches know that our smallish line is incapable of moving the big D-lines off the ball and it's reflected every time we get inside the red zone. So from that standpoint...no, they don't necessarily deserve unquestioned trust nor are they able to see this clearer than we are.

Sure thing [/sarcasm]

[TonyR]

The fact that the small offensive line doesn't work any more has been apparent for at least 3 years now. When we play the bigger, more physical defenses we struggle. We can't move the ball in the red zone against anybody. Cutler, and before him Plummer, are under constant pressure. We have to use roll outs to buy the QB time to make a play. If I see it, why don't the powers-that-be? It's really very simple and very clear. We need a bigger O-line. I will be disappointed with any pick other than an O-lineman in round 1.

By the way, the latest espn mock has us taking Albert.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/hashmarks?tag=nfl%20draft

[lostknight]

[QUOTE=bpc;1957872]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/nfl/specials/draft/2008/04/24/lombardi.iwould/index.html

Cutler is at his best when he can stand behind the center and throw the ball all over the field. He has very unique skills that can eventually lead a team to the Super Bowl, but he needs to have an offensive line that can highlight those skills. The Broncos need to acquire bigger bodies to help protect Cutler, not only to throw the ball down the field but also to control the line of scrimmage.
[/I]

Sorry. Cutler is at his best when he rolls out of the pocket. We saw that time and again last season. Go watch the highlight plays from last year. Cutler was anywhere but in the pocket.

It's fashionable to say Denver needs ig guys - but I think we need medium guys with more speed. You can't sacrifice the run and hole opening ability of the line for the QB.

[TonyR]

[QUOTE=lostknight;1958119][QUOTE
Sorry. Cutler is at his best when he rolls out of the pocket. We saw that time and again last season. Go watch the highlight plays from last year. Cutler was anywhere but in the pocket.

He's at his best when he rolls out because he doesn't have any time in the pocket. It's easier to scan the field and throw the ball standing still than when moving. Believe me, what we want is a bigger, better O-line giving Cutler more time in the pocket. The sky is the limit for how good he could be with better protection. But I do agree that we don't need a "massive" O-line, just a bigger, stronger one than we have now.

[Atlas]

Thanks. Bump it back up.

Hopefully this helps all would-be draftkniks understand which direction this organization needs to go. It's a well know fact in many NFL circles why we got our ass kicked so bad last year and it wasn't because of our HB's or even our WR's.

Our OL couldn't keep players off our franchise QB. Until that changes, we're looking at 7-9, 8-8 seasons.

I disagree wholeheartedly. The Denver scheme is a proven winner. The OL played well for the most part last year considering how young the line was. You cannot tell me that if today Denver had Zim, Schlereth, Neil, Nalen and Jones that they would be dominated. The fact is they would dominate just like they did 10 years ago. The problem isn't the size of the line if there is a problem it's that Denver's OL simply isn't good enough. I believe with experience, this line could dominate, they were just too young last year.

I'm not saying that Denver can't get a little bigger. I don't see why Clady 309lbs would be a bad fit but size isn't the most important thing for Denver's OL isn't size it's speed, Strength and endurance. Getting OL like Larry Allen would simply not be a good fit.

[Atlas]

The fact that the small offensive line doesn't work any more has been apparent for at least 3 years now.


http://myespn.go.com/blogs/hashmarks?tag=nfl%20draft

Really?? 3 years ago Denver rushed for over 2000 yards, they were 13-3 and Plummer was rarely sacked.

[TonyR]

Really?? 3 years ago Denver rushed for over 2000 yards, they were 13-3 and Plummer was rarely sacked.

Go back and look what happens every time we play the bigger, more physical front sevens. And you're talking about 3 years ago? How long are you going to live off of 3 years ago? I want to win NOW, not 3 years ago. And I'm not suggesting "Larry Allen" types, but we do need to get more physical up front. The game has changed.

As for sacks, we avoid them by employing roll outs and bootlegs. But our QB's are always under too much pressure because smallish linemen generally aren't good pass blockers. They get overwhelmed by bigger D-linemen.

[Broncojef]

I disagree wholeheartedly. The Denver scheme is a proven winner. The OL played well for the most part last year considering how young the line was. You cannot tell me that if today Denver had Zim, Schlereth, Neil, Nalen and Jones that they would be dominated. The fact is they would dominate just like they did 10 years ago. The problem isn't the size of the line if there is a problem it's that Denver's OL simply isn't good enough. I believe with experience, this line could dominate, they were just too young last year.

I'm not saying that Denver can't get a little bigger. I don't see why Clady 309lbs would be a bad fit but size isn't the most important thing for Denver's OL isn't size it's speed, Strength and endurance. Getting OL like Larry Allen would simply not be a good fit.

Thats a Pro-Bowl lineup and yes they would dominate today. Problem is we have no talent remotely close to that to subscribe to a small line theory. Cutler is a pocket passer that needs a big physical line to protect him in the pocket. The line we had played more in jake's strengths (rolling out etc). I really think time has passed Shanahan by and we have been forced to struggle with inferior talent on the line thinking we could plug any late draft pick in and still dominate. We have had serious issues for quite sometime in the red zone and scoring touchdowns as a whole. I blame alot of that on the departure of Kubiak and the personnel decisions Shanny has made. We get beat by tough teams in the trenches and at some point I hope our lauded coaching staff comes to grip with the analysis a drunk guy in the club level can see. I just shake my head everytime I hear Shanny say well those critics just don't know how to evaluate talent. How can anyone say that with a straight face after some of the drafts we've experienced. For Christ sake some even on the mane are touting Kuper, Pears and harris as having stabilized our O-Line and no need for an upgrade. In the money game we still lost three years ago and our lines were dominated. The staff obviously has no clue on what to draft to stabilize a line so I would draft OT and DT all day and hope something sticks, similar to the Foxworth/Paymah DB draft a few years ago.

[bpc]

I disagree wholeheartedly. The Denver scheme is a proven winner. The OL played well for the most part last year considering how young the line was. You cannot tell me that if today Denver had Zim, Schlereth, Neil, Nalen and Jones that they would be dominated. The fact is they would dominate just like they did 10 years ago. The problem isn't the size of the line if there is a problem it's that Denver's OL simply isn't good enough. I believe with experience, this line could dominate, they were just too young last year.

I'm not saying that Denver can't get a little bigger. I don't see why Clady 309lbs would be a bad fit but size isn't the most important thing for Denver's OL isn't size it's speed, Strength and endurance. Getting OL like Larry Allen would simply not be a good fit.

I don't want a new scheme and I don't need 350lb players. I WANT TALENTED PLAYERS and I want Denver to invest in some good blockers for Cutler which have PEDIGREE. No more of this UDFA trash that we pick, jossle around on our NFL Europa roster and then cast out as the next coming of Zimm.

We invested in a franchise QB. NOW invest in some blockers to protect him.

Charlie Casserly made a great point about David Carr and Carson Palmer (spare me any grades on their talent, this is just an example), the main reasons why Carson had a better chance to succeed is that he had two quality tackles on his roster, Levi Jones and Willie Anderson while Houston had none. Subsequently, Carr was ran down and creamed over and over again.

We have lots of holes, OT is the biggest.

[Traveler]

I WANT TALENTED PLAYERS and I want Denver to invest in some good blockers for Cutler which have PEDIGREE. No more of this UDFA trash that we pick, jossle around on our NFL Europa roster and then cast out as the next coming of Zimm.

Couldn't have said it better!
:thought:

[Atlas]

Go back and look what happens every time we play the bigger, more physical front sevens. And you're talking about 3 years ago? How long are you going to live off of 3 years ago? I want to win NOW, not 3 years ago. And I'm not suggesting "Larry Allen" types, but we do need to get more physical up front. The game has changed.

As for sacks, we avoid them by employing roll outs and bootlegs. But our QB's are always under too much pressure because smallish linemen generally aren't good pass blockers. They get overwhelmed by bigger D-linemen.

Why don't you read the posts. The guy I responded to said that that Denver's OL has played poorly for over 3 years. I was just pointing out he was wrong.

The reason Denver ran bootlegs was not because the OL couldn't protect. Did you even watch any Bronco games back then? What are you a converted Raiderfan or something? The reason Denver ran a lot of bootlegs is because Plummer led the NFL in passer rating outside the pocket.

Sure Denver's OL gets over powered by some of the bigger DLs on certain plays but do you know what? Most OLs in the NFL get over powered on occassions by big DLs.

You can't argue with stats. Denver is one of the top rushing teams in the NFL and their QBs are rarely sacked. Those are facts, but go ahead and spin away.

The sacks Denver did give up last year probably half of them go on Cutler because he held on to the ball too long.

Sure Denver could use some more talent on the OL, but the system isn't broke. Denver doesn't need to get bigger, they need to get better.

[montrose]

Great article. Now George Foster is living proof that we can't go sign just any fatty. With that, OL have gotten much more athletic, while maintaining size. Kuper and Holland are examples of how we can get bigger at G while maintaining the necessary athleticism. If we land Clady or Williams as our long-term LT, we'd be in good shape assuming Hamilton and Harris can put on some muscle.

[cmhargrove]

"Lombardi sucks dude."

[Atwater His Ass]

The problem is we don't occasionaly get dominated by the physical teams. It happens the entire game when we play them. Our system is fine, we just flat out don't have the talent currently to execute it or any other system.

When this system is working, we don't physically dominate anyway. Go back and watch the GB SB. We didn't smash mouth beat that GB line into submission. We beat them with superior atheltic skill and perfect execution. That was our system working to its highest potential. That should be the goal and what we try to achieve.

We don't have lineman today that would start on the SB lines (comparing Nalen then to Nalen now for example) or be even close. I realize that was a special group, but we to at least be able to compete with that talent level if our system is going to start working for us again.

Hopefully Kuper and Harris can start to get us back on track.

[SouthStndJunkie]

Props to Lombardi.....I agree with everything he said.

[SouthStndJunkie]

We need to stay at 12 if we want to ensure we get one of the offensive tackles.

They are going to go quick right after that. I have us taking Albert at 12, Clady going at 13, Otah at 14, Williams at 17.

That leaves Gosder Cherilus left....and I think he will get snatched up no later than 23 and probably higher. I don't want to get cute and trade down and then get screwed out of our choice of tackles. We are positioned well at 12 to get the guy we want.

[footstepsfrom#27]

You can't argue with stats.
Really? I think you can. Our line gets manhandled in every situation that calls for simple man on man power blocking in short yardage. The game has changed. Shanahan hasn't. The last time this philosophy was really effective was when TD ran behind it. In the short 10 years since we won the Superbowl, D-lnes have gotten progressively bigger, faster and more mobile. We're at a strategic disadvantage every time we take the field.

Why do people insist on keeping this philosophy? It's not like there aren't plenty of teams that run the ball just as well as we do with power blockers. And those teams have one thing we don't, the ability to pass protect a pocket agaisnt bull rushers. Watch Ben Hamilton next time we play SD...he's getting rag dolled on every play unless he's pulling and cutting somebody.

We need to get bigger and better.

[footstepsfrom#27]

We need to stay at 12 if we want to ensure we get one of the offensive tackles.

They are going to go quick right after that. I have us taking Albert at 12, Clady going at 13, Otah at 14, Williams at 17.

That leaves Gosder Cherilus left....and I think he will get snatched up no later than 23 and probably higher. I don't want to get cute and trade down and then get screwed out of our choice of tackles. We are positioned well at 12 to get the guy we want.
Here's a question; what if both Clady and Willilams are gone at #12? Would you want Otah? People shy away from him based on the failed Georgina Foster debacle...as if every big power OT in the NFL was somehow forever at the mercy of his sad legacy here. I wouldn't be unahppy with that move. In fact even though I want Willilams, I'd jump up and down with glee because it would signal a new direction at long last.

[~Crash~]

Time will tell. I've got faith in the organization to make a better decision than I, or anyone else here, could.

Lombardi kind of was with the Broncos so I would think his ideas might not be to bad .

[epicSocialism4tw]

Size isnt neccessarily the issue, its talent.

I love the old maxim "you get what you pay for"...Denver invests peanuts into both of its lines and expects that those peanuts grow into oak trees.

At least they tried with George "couch potato" Foster, but they need to find a way to address that need seriously.

[SouthStndJunkie]

Here's a question; what if both Clady and Willilams are gone at #12? Would you want Otah? People shy away from him based on the failed Georgina Foster debacle...as if every big power OT in the NFL was somehow forever at the mercy of his sad legacy here. I wouldn't be unahppy with that move. In fact even though I want Willilams, I'd jump up and down with glee because it would signal a new direction at long last.

Otah would not be my first choice 12, but he will be a good tackle in the NFL. I could live with the pick. He certainly is not the next Bi-Curious George Foster.

[TonyR]

Why don't you read the posts. The guy I responded to said that that Denver's OL has played poorly for over 3 years. I was just pointing out he was wrong.

The reason Denver ran bootlegs was not because the OL couldn't protect. Did you even watch any Bronco games back then? What are you a converted Raiderfan or something? The reason Denver ran a lot of bootlegs is because Plummer led the NFL in passer rating outside the pocket.

Sure Denver's OL gets over powered by some of the bigger DLs on certain plays but do you know what? Most OLs in the NFL get over powered on occassions by big DLs.

You can't argue with stats. Denver is one of the top rushing teams in the NFL and their QBs are rarely sacked. Those are facts, but go ahead and spin away.

The sacks Denver did give up last year probably half of them go on Cutler because he held on to the ball too long.

Sure Denver could use some more talent on the OL, but the system isn't broke. Denver doesn't need to get bigger, they need to get better.

I think the only thing you're right about is that we need to get better. If you think the O-line has performed well over the last 3 years then I don't know what to tell you. I suppose you could argue they performed adequately between the 20's but we've had one of the worst red zone offenses in the league for a reason. No spin there, just objective logic and reason. You have to win in the trenches to move the ball in the red zone, that's just basic football.

The game has changed. The athletes are now bigger, stronger, and faster. The old model of 280-290 pound O-linemen isn't going to get it done any more. We need to get bigger AND better. And again, I'm not suggesting a behometh line as that doesn't fit our run blocking scheme. But we need bigger guys up front so Jay can stay upright in the pocket.

Please go back and watch the San Diego games and the Jacksonville game as evidence of what I'm telling you here. Correcting the problem is easier said than done, but diagnosing the problem is really rather easy.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Size isnt neccessarily the issue, its talent.
It's both.

[TonyR]

Really? I think you can. Our line gets manhandled in every situation that calls for simple man on man power blocking in short yardage. The game has changed. Shanahan hasn't. The last time this philosophy was really effective was when TD ran behind it. In the short 10 years since we won the Superbowl, D-lnes have gotten progressively bigger, faster and more mobile. We're at a strategic disadvantage every time we take the field.

Why do people insist on keeping this philosophy? It's not like there aren't plenty of teams that run the ball just as well as we do with power blockers. And those teams have one thing we don't, the ability to pass protect a pocket agaisnt bull rushers. Watch Ben Hamilton next time we play SD...he's getting rag dolled on every play unless he's pulling and cutting somebody.

We need to get bigger and better.

BINGO! Good post, footsteps. Glad to see some people are paying attention. You're right on the money here.

[epicSocialism4tw]

It's both.

Nah. We havent had SB level talent on the line here in years. Nalen has been about it. Ben Hamilton is a good player as well, but he's no Schlereth.

[footstepsfrom#27]

And again, I'm not suggesting a behometh line as that doesn't fit our run blocking scheme.
I am suggesting a behemoth line. This idea that we can somehow find guys who are maybe 10-20 pounds bigger who can still run our system just doesn't fly IMO. How many true power blockers in the NFL are 300 pounds? That's below average size now.

If you find the occassional guy whose a physical freak and can play in both systems--great...but those guys are rare and finding 5 of them is not realistic. We need to simply scrap this system entirely. For some reason it continues to elude people on this board that the REASON we are no longer finding the same level of talent late in the draft is because we no longer are the only team looking for those smallish linemen. We're a victim of our own success and the copycats like Jokeland, Green Bay and Atlanta...about 6 altogether...are taking some of the guys we could have gotten in the past. It's time to junk the stretch zone entirely and go with big guys who can pass block for a real pocket so we don't get Jay killed.

[Northman]

I think the only thing you're right about is that we need to get better. If you think the O-line has performed well over the last 3 years then I don't know what to tell you. I suppose you could argue they performed adequately between the 20's but we've had one of the worst red zone offenses in the league for a reason. No spin there, just objective logic and reason. You have to win in the trenches to move the ball in the red zone, that's just basic football.

The game has changed. The athletes are now bigger, stronger, and faster. The old model of 280-290 pound O-linemen isn't going to get it done any more. We need to get bigger AND better. And again, I'm not suggesting a behometh line as that doesn't fit our run blocking scheme. But we need bigger guys up front so Jay can stay upright in the pocket.

Please go back and watch the San Diego games and the Jacksonville games as evidence of what I'm telling you here. Correcting the problem is easier said than done, but diagnosing the problem is really rather easy.

And thats where the difference is. People get caught up with the numbers and then ignore the rest of it.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Nah. We havent had SB level talent on the line here in years. Nalen has been about it. Ben Hamilton is a good player as well, but he's no Schlereth.
He's average at best. If all he has to do is operate in space where he can cut somebody he's great. But watching Jamal Williams knock him around like a piniata is something I'm tired of. This is simple physics. Big bodies exert more power and we have none. Hence our inability to move the ball in short yardage running situations. Till we fix this mothing else will work the way it should.

[2KBack]

I acctually think ab ig part of the problem the last 2 years was a small paradigm shift in the offense. The playcalling was far less WCO last season, there are spposed to be more quick outs and slants to make up for the smallish WCO oline and slow down the rush. I think the love of cutlers downfield passing ability caused Shanny/dinger to call deeper routes, and the oline just wasn't able to hold up. Personally I think Dinger's influence was the main culprit.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I acctually think ab ig part of the problem the last 2 years was a small paradigm shift in the offense. The playcalling was far less WCO last season, there are spposed to be more quick outs and slants to make up for the smallish WCO oline and slow down the rush. I think the love of cutlers downfield passing ability caused Shanny/dinger to call deeper routes, and the oline just wasn't able to hold up. Personally I think Dinger's influence was the main culprit.
"Culprit"? The whole point in having a big arm QB is that you can threaten the whole field. That's what Plummer could not do, and why he's now playing handball. The WCO does not have to rely on a stretch zone running game to work. The Culprit was not Dinger it's the miniature size of our line.

[TonyR]

"The Culprit was not Dinger it's the miniature size of our line.


footsteps, I fully endorse your point here that the current line is too small and it needs to get better AND bigger. I'm pushing for more of an intermediate step only because we probably can't make a wholesale change all at once. In other words, we won't be starting 5 320+ pounders this season so I don't know that we can change our whole philosophy overnight (not that that's what you're suggesting).

But I'm fully on board with a gradual shift to a bigger line that can hold it's own in the red zone and pass protect so Jay can use his down field passing ability. This would be a radical shift for Shanny and Turner and I wonder if they're willing to do it.

But I for one am tired of the team getting inside the 10 and settling for field goals. I bet we lead the league in that stat over the last 3 years, and yet some here will say our line has been fine over the last few years. And then ask me if I watch the games and if I'm a converted Raiders fan...

[2KBack]

"Culprit"? The whole point in having a big arm QB is that you can threaten the whole field. That's what Plummer could not do, and why he's now playing handball. The WCO does not have to rely on a stretch zone running game to work. The Culprit was not Dinger it's the miniature size of our line.


Meh, I know that's your opinion. I just think there's more to it than not having fatties. The smaller lines have been massively sucessful more than they have been a liability in Denver. If the offense wants to go all 5-7 step drop, then yeah, they'll need the big pass protect guys. Personally I think you do what you know, and what you're best at.

[footstepsfrom#27]

footsteps, I fully endorse your point here that the current line is too small and it needs to get better AND bigger. I'm pushing for more of an intermediate step only because we probably can't make a wholesale change all at once. In other words, we won't be starting 5 320+ pounders this season so I don't know that we can change our whole philosophy overnight (not that that's what you're suggesting).

But I'm fully on board with a gradual shift to a bigger line that can hold it's own in the red zone and pass protect so Jay can use his down field passing ability. This would be a radical shift for Shanny and Turner and I wonder if they're willing to do it.

But I for one am tired of the team getting inside the 10 and settling for field goals. I bet we lead the league in that stat over the last 3 years, and yet some here will say our line has been fine over the last few years. And then ask me if I watch the games and if I'm a converted Raiders fan...
I can see your point. Williams would fit as a guy who could play in both systems. So would Albert. I don't see then junking this system though. Shanny would have to let go of Bobby Turner and is he going to do that? Highly unlikely. I think we're stuck with this thing for the forseable future. I hope I'm wrong.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Meh, I know that's your opinion. I just think there's more to it than not having fatties. The smaller lines have been massively sucessful more than they have been a liability in Denver.
That was then this is now.
If the offense wants to go all 5-7 step drop, then yeah, they'll need the big pass protect guys. Personally I think you do what you know, and what you're best at.
Well in order to throw the ball downfield more than a quick out you have to drop 5-7 steps or else you're eating turf. So unless you want to see Jay play like Jake we have only two choices, drop back deep or roll out. I frankly don't want to see our franchise QB acting like Plummer on rollouts. Sooner or later he's gonne get blasted. Second, the small line's bigger problem is that they simply can't block in the short yardage game. That's not fixable with this system anymore. I know Shanahan knows this system but why not bring in somebody who can coach a true power running game? Is this a friendship/loyalty thing? Because if it is we're getting killed with it.

[skpac1001]

Just out of curiosity, who are these teams that are overpowering Jacksonville and San Diego D-lines? I suppose the Colts traditionally do well against the Jags but that doesnt really help the size argument.

[TonyR]

Just out of curiosity, who are these teams that are overpowering Jacksonville and San Diego D-lines? I suppose the Colts traditionally do well against the Jags but that doesnt really help the size argument.

It's not necessarily about overpowering them but instead about not being overpowered BY them. You can't let them control the line of scrimmage and dicatate everything you do. So you at least have to hold your own against them. When they're tossing aside your O-linemen and/or puhsing your O-line into the backfield all day you're not going to have much success against them. Look how many points we scored in those 3 games. We scored 6 total points in 2 games against the Chargers, 14 against the Jags. Detroit manhandled us also and we scored 7 against them. When you lose 44-7 to Detroit you clearly have problems on both sides of the ball!

[2KBack]

That was then this is now.

Well in order to throw the ball downfield more than a quick out you have to drop 5-7 steps or else you're eating turf. So unless you want to see Jay play like Jake we have only two choices, drop back deep or roll out. I frankly don't want to see our franchise QB acting like Plummer on rollouts. Sooner or later he's gonne get blasted. Second, the small line's bigger problem is that they simply can't block in the short yardage game. That's not fixable with this system anymore. I know Shanahan knows this system but why not bring in somebody who can coach a true power running game? Is this a friendship/loyalty thing? Because if it is we're getting killed with it.


What makes now so different than then, except that we are obviously having to start getting younger on the line? Obviously the system still works, or so many teams wouldn't be switching to it.

What's wrong with our franchise QB playing in the same system that helped Elway win a championship? Forget Playing like plummer for a second, the current system is what gave us the best teams in Denver history. You argue that the game has changed, yet you support installing a system that is even older, a system that we may not have much experience in coaching, and a system that has garnered less success for the team.

I respect that you want to solve some of the problems we;ve seen the past 2 seasons. I just disagree with your solution.

[lex]

Whats the problem with getting bigger, more stout guys who are mobile enough rather than smaller mobile guys that we hope are stout enough? Its not that I think you have to be bigger but I think the bigger/mobile enough guys give us more room for error because the smaller/mobile guys require a skill level in short yardage scenarios thats hard to find.

[2KBack]

Whats the problem with getting bigger, more stout guys who are mobile enough rather than smaller mobile guys that we hope are stout enough?

I think this is where the team is headed. I do believe the line is heavier now than it has been in years. That's fine as long as they are athletic enough.

[skpac1001]

It's not necessarily about overpowering them but instead about not being overpowered BY them. You can't let the control the line of scrimmage and dicatate everything you do. So you at least have to hold your own against them. When they're tossing aside your O-linemen and/or puhsing your O-line into the backfield all day you're not going to have much success against them. Look how many points we scored in those 3 games. We scored 6 total points in 2 games against the Chargers, 14 against the Jags. Detroit manhandled us also and we scored 7 against them. When you lose 44-7 to Detroit you clearly have problems on both sides of the ball!

Ok... do you have any examples of teams who's O-lines consistently control San Diego and Jacksonvilles D Lines? I am asking because I consider Jacksonville and San Deigo to have probably the two most powerful D-Lines in football, so judging a O-Line by how well they do against those two is a little harsh. No argument about Detroit, but I would argue that has more to do with specific personel or bad play then scheme, since we have beat them and better teams in the past too. In fact last year our discredited O-Line managed to control the Steelers enough to score a bit.

[skpac1001]

Whats the problem with getting bigger, more stout guys who are mobile enough rather than smaller mobile guys that we hope are stout enough? Its not that I think you have to be bigger but I think the bigger/mobile enough guys give us more room for error because the smaller/mobile guys require a skill level in short yardage scenarios thats hard to find.

Nothing at all theoretically. Practically it means you have to share those high picks with the other needs in your team, and your Oline will take up that much more of the salary cap, and O-line busts will be that much more expensive. Don't get me wrong though, it we get Clady or whoever and he doesnt bust, I think we made the best move possible.

[cmhargrove]

I can see your point. Williams would fit as a guy who could play in both systems. So would Albert. I don't see then junking this system though. Shanny would have to let go of Bobby Turner and is he going to do that? Highly unlikely. I think we're stuck with this thing for the forseable future. I hope I'm wrong.

Man, you're right. I hate being stuck with that Bobby Turner dude, what a loser...

Are you smoking something today footsteps?

One of the things we need on both our lines (along with size and talent) - consistency. If we get lucky enough not to replace four of our five starters this year, we might be a little better. And yes, Pears was the only returning starter from 2006 that finished the season in 2007 (and at a different position from the year before).

Our system works. We are already getting bigger. We need some time and good luck (no major injuries). Stop spewing that trash that our whole O-line philosophy sucks.

And stop talking crap on Bobby Turner.

[TonyR]

Ok... do you have any examples of teams who's O-lines consistently control San Diego and Jacksonvilles D Lines? I am asking because I consider Jacksonville and San Deigo to have probably the two most powerful D-Lines in football, so judging a O-Line by how well they do against those two is a little harsh. No argument about Detroit, but I would argue that has more to do with specific personel or bad play then scheme, since we have beat them and better teams in the past too. In fact last year our discredited O-Line managed to control the Steelers enough to score a bit.

Okay, let's look at San Diego. The teams that had the most success scoring against them in the regular season were: New England (38), Minnesota (35), Green Bay (31), Kansas City! (30), Jacksonville (24), Indy (21). Then in the playoffs Indy and New England scored 24 and 21 against them, respectively. This isn't a perfect way to judge how they handled the Chargers D-line but it is at least indicative of how they did against them.

Now for the Jags. Houston! (42), New Orleans (41), Indy (29), Indy (28), Tampa (23), Pittsburgh (22). Then in the playoffs Pittsburgh and New England scored 29 and 31 against them, respectively. Again, not the perfect analysis but an indicator.

You could also look at rushing yards against them and sacks allowed against them but this wouldn't tell the whole story either.

Regardless, these teams performed considerably better against them offensively than we did.

[Mediator12]

I think every style of offense has its strengths and weaknesses. I also think Lombardi makes an exceptional point in highlighting that:

It is critical in the NFL to have symmetry with your personnel. Right now, the Broncos don't have that fluid feel to their offense. They have a tremendous drop-back passer in Jay Cutler, but a smallish offensive line. The two pieces don't work well together.

Cutler is at his best when he can stand behind the center and throw the ball all over the field. He has very unique skills that can eventually lead a team to the Super Bowl, but he needs to have an offensive line that can highlight those skills. The Broncos need to acquire bigger bodies to help protect Cutler, not only to throw the ball down the field but also to control the line of scrimmage.

Here is the philosophy the broncos have used to select Linemen in the Alex Gibbs mold over the years:

The best of Both worlds is size and quickness, but if something has to give, take the quickness. What is more important than size is functional strength and superior execution.

The problem with that, is DEN has lost the superior execution and in more than a few instances the functional strength as well. It was not just inconsistency that lost those games, but strength and quickness too. They were not competitive against physical teams, because they lacked all 3 possible advantages they might have man on man in the trenches. They have not replaced talent with comparable talent on the OL over the last 5 years. The DL are getting bigger, stronger, and faster and the OL for DEN are not getting bigger, stronger, or more athletic to combat that.

The trend they set with the undersized OL has worked until recently, but things go in cycles in the NFL. Jay gives them options with his abilites, but the protections limit that more than anything else as almost every single OL can be beaten anymore by better DL. When OL can not sustain their blocks long enough to make a 5 step drop consistently, teams can take away the underneath WCO stuff and make your QB hold the ball longer and hit him all day long without the fear of getting beat deep. That happened to Cutler a lot as teams squatted on the underneath Slants, crosses, and outs and dared DEN to get vertical. It's one of the reasons why Jay held the ball so long when he wanted to get rid of it quickly, they overplayed underneath.

[TheReverend]

I think every style of offense has its strengths and weaknesses. I also think Lombardi makes an exceptional point in highlighting that:



Here is the philosophy the broncos have used to select Linemen in the Alex Gibbs mold over the years:



The problem with that, is DEN has lost the superior execution and in more than a few instances the functional strength as well. It was not just inconsistency that lost those games, but strength and quickness too. They were not competitive against physical teams, because they lacked all 3 possible advantages they might have man on man in the trenches. They have not replaced talent with comparable talent on the OL over the last 5 years. The DL are getting bigger, stronger, and faster and the OL for DEN are not getting bigger, stronger, or more athletic to combat that.

The trend they set with the undersized OL has worked until recently, but things go in cycles in the NFL. Jay gives them options with his abilites, but the protections limit that more than anything else as almost every single OL can be beaten anymore by better DL. When OL can not sustain their blocks long enough to make a 5 step drop consistently, teams can take away the underneath WCO stuff and make your QB hold the ball longer and hit him all day long without the fear of getting beat deep. That happened to Cutler a lot as teams squatted on the underneath Slants, crosses, and outs and dared DEN to get vertical. It's one of the reasons why Jay held the ball so long when he wanted to get rid of it quickly, they overplayed underneath.

So let me get this straight...

You're trying to tell me that 3 guys who start the season combining for 0 starts in a Denver uni, and a 2nd year UDFA, haven't mastered superior execution of the system yet?!?!?! GTFO!!!!!!!! :spit:

[Atlas]

Please go back and watch the San Diego games and the Jacksonville game as evidence of what I'm telling you here. Correcting the problem is easier said than done, but diagnosing the problem is really rather easy.
90% of the OLs in the league were dominated by those two lines. They have the best two DLs in the NFL!!!

Denver's OL was one of the youngest in the league last year. They will be much better this year whether or not the have a first round draft pick OT sitting on the bench or not.

[TonyR]

90% of the OLs in the league were dominated by those two lines. They have the best two DLs in the NFL!!!

Denver's OL was one of the youngest in the league last year. They will be much better this year whether or not the have a first round draft pick OT sitting on the bench or not.

You have a lot more confidence in this line being "much better this year" than I do. And even if they are "better", are they going to be good enough to handle a team like San Diego? This is a team in our division that we have to play twice. We need to join that hypothetical 10% group that's not dominated by their line twice a year.

[Cito Pelon]

Well, when all is said and done, Shanny has to develop a dropback passing attack. If you want to win playoff games you gotta have the ability to attack when you're behind, and that requires a smooth dropback passing attack.

Shanny does a lot of things right on O, but he's a play-action guy. His play-action O's are some of the most awesome I've ever seen when everything is working to perfection. Shanny has to develop a more flexible O if he wants to win playoff games. Shanny seems like he's way too rigid in how he runs the O. Seems like he has an idea how he wants to manage the game on O on Saturday night, and is inflexible come Sunday gametime. He has a list of plays he wants to run, and he's gonna run them come hell or high water. He'll continually run the same plays over and over, but from different formations, or run the same play but as a mirror image where it's the same play but right is now left. Defensive players are smarter now than they were ten years ago, to go along with bigger and faster.

Shanny's O never even tries a post pattern to a WR, except for on a rollout. You have to at least try one just as part of the chess game. If I was a DC I'd never even prepare my safeties to look for a post pattern when Denver came to town, why bother? Denver throws a post pattern to a WR only on a rollout. Denver never attacks the middle of the endzone with the passing attack when they're in the redzone. You have to at least try some as part of the chess game. If I was a DC, why bother schooling your LB's and safeties to look out for a pass to the middle/back of the end zone? Have them attack the LOS and the edges, because Denver never tries to attack the middle of the endzone. Stale O. Bowlen needs to insist on bringing in some new blood on O strategy.

[Drek]

I think every style of offense has its strengths and weaknesses. I also think Lombardi makes an exceptional point in highlighting that:



Here is the philosophy the broncos have used to select Linemen in the Alex Gibbs mold over the years:



The problem with that, is DEN has lost the superior execution and in more than a few instances the functional strength as well. It was not just inconsistency that lost those games, but strength and quickness too. They were not competitive against physical teams, because they lacked all 3 possible advantages they might have man on man in the trenches. They have not replaced talent with comparable talent on the OL over the last 5 years. The DL are getting bigger, stronger, and faster and the OL for DEN are not getting bigger, stronger, or more athletic to combat that.

The trend they set with the undersized OL has worked until recently, but things go in cycles in the NFL. Jay gives them options with his abilites, but the protections limit that more than anything else as almost every single OL can be beaten anymore by better DL. When OL can not sustain their blocks long enough to make a 5 step drop consistently, teams can take away the underneath WCO stuff and make your QB hold the ball longer and hit him all day long without the fear of getting beat deep. That happened to Cutler a lot as teams squatted on the underneath Slants, crosses, and outs and dared DEN to get vertical. It's one of the reasons why Jay held the ball so long when he wanted to get rid of it quickly, they overplayed underneath.

Pretty much the perfect post on what is wrong with the Broncos offense at current. Mismatched pieces, when one of the big pieces, OL, are behind the times athletically.

Needs a significant upgrade for sure. Hopefully this deep OT class and what looks to be a deep class for OL again next year will help us remedy that problem.

[wolf754life]

<!-- icon and title --> http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/icons/icon1.gif
<hr style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by TheReverend http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1957986#post1957986)
We read articles about players. They're watching them at practice and in workouts.

We speculate about health and recovery times. They're taking professional opinions from the top specialists on the planet that are treating them.

We watch at best whatever college games we can see, listen to NFL radio and scour reports of the senior bowl and pro days. They watch scout tape and take opinions from guys that are balls deep on these kids by the time they hit their sophomore year.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
(And yet in spite of all that their draft day record is shoddy to say the least. In any case, what's exposure to the players and access to scouting or medical experts got to do with the fact that Shanahan is stuck in the past and can't see that his line is getting *****icked in the face game after game by bigger more physical D-lines? Coaches historically seem to be reluctant to change what's worked for them in the past, even when the strategy has long since shown that it isn't working. Bottom line...it isn't just us fans that see this; seasoned NFL analysts and no doubt other coaches know that our smallish line is incapable of moving the big D-lines off the ball and it's reflected every time we get inside the red zone. So from that standpoint...no, they don't necessarily deserve unquestioned trust nor are they able to see this clearer than we are.......................)

Steps, do NOT try to talk logically about the broncos weaknesses. This board will have none of it, the Broncos have no flaws, no weaknesses and surely Shannahan is not at fault, get with the homerism now boy!

[dsmoot]

I disagree wholeheartedly. The Denver scheme is a proven winner. The OL played well for the most part last year considering how young the line was. You cannot tell me that if today Denver had Zim, Schlereth, Neil, Nalen and Jones that they would be dominated. The fact is they would dominate just like they did 10 years ago. The problem isn't the size of the line if there is a problem it's that Denver's OL simply isn't good enough. I believe with experience, this line could dominate, they were just too young last year.

I'm not saying that Denver can't get a little bigger. I don't see why Clady 309lbs would be a bad fit but size isn't the most important thing for Denver's OL isn't size it's speed, Strength and endurance. Getting OL like Larry Allen would simply not be a good fit.

Your analogy just took a fall though much of what you said is correct. You must be smoking something funny to believe that the current players on our OL will dominate like the line you mentioned from 10 years ago. They are getting beat PHYSICALLY not with technique. You can't teach PHYSICAL although you can improve it slightly after you get to the NFL but not significantly. Three of those OL players from 10 years ago were elite or very close to it. WE HAVE NO ELITE PLAYERS. NONE. Nalen is no longer elite and it goes down hill from there. The guys we have will NOT dominate in this league.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

The DL are getting bigger, stronger, and faster and the OL for DEN are not getting bigger, stronger, or more athletic to combat that.

.

Guys who are 320# today are just as athletic as guys who were 290# ten years ago. OL advances need to keep up with DL advances.

[TheReverend]

<!-- icon and title --> http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/icons/icon1.gif
<hr style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by TheReverend http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1957986#post1957986)
We read articles about players. They're watching them at practice and in workouts.

We speculate about health and recovery times. They're taking professional opinions from the top specialists on the planet that are treating them.

We watch at best whatever college games we can see, listen to NFL radio and scour reports of the senior bowl and pro days. They watch scout tape and take opinions from guys that are balls deep on these kids by the time they hit their sophomore year.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
(And yet in spite of all that their draft day record is shoddy to say the least. In any case, what's exposure to the players and access to scouting or medical experts got to do with the fact that Shanahan is stuck in the past and can't see that his line is getting *****icked in the face game after game by bigger more physical D-lines? Coaches historically seem to be reluctant to change what's worked for them in the past, even when the strategy has long since shown that it isn't working. Bottom line...it isn't just us fans that see this; seasoned NFL analysts and no doubt other coaches know that our smallish line is incapable of moving the big D-lines off the ball and it's reflected every time we get inside the red zone. So from that standpoint...no, they don't necessarily deserve unquestioned trust nor are they able to see this clearer than we are.......................)

Steps, do NOT try to talk logically about the broncos weaknesses. This board will have none of it, the Broncos have no flaws, no weaknesses and surely Shannahan is not at fault, get with the homerism now boy!

Let's get to the bottom of this once and for all:

You're a ****ing moron.

You were a large Shanahan fan and supporter up to a couple years ago.

You didn't like Plummer. Shanahan drafts a top shelf QB and a safety valve TE and 2 gems in the fourth.

The next year you didn't like the pass rush and Mike's neglect for the lines. So he devotes 100% of the picks to the lines.

You bash him for no reason because you've wanted every ****ing move he's made. You just want to be a little contrarian fruit to push peoples buttons because no one will pay attention to you in real life or you're a bandwagoner that can't handle a 7-9 season. Call a psychiatrist and shut the **** up.

(My apologies go out to all the mods for use of foul language, but can anyone think this ****stick doesn't deserve worse?)

[Merlin]

blah, blah, blah, diatribe, hate, diatribe [closet KC-Raider Fan] blah, blah
What's wrong crybaby, you can't stand it that most people can tell how little you know? Go cry some more...and make sure you don't forger to kiss your KC-Raider banners before going to bed.

[TheReverend]

Guys who are 320# today are just as athletic as guys who were 290# ten years ago. OL advances need to keep up with DL advances.

There have been DL advances? I know they can run better 40s now that they have speed coaches for a month before the combine, and I know they spend a lot more time doing cute little shuttle drills... but there have been on the field advances?

If so color me unimpressed.

I'll take the 90's Reggie White and Warren Sapp over three of anyone this decade and probably next decade for that matter.

[wolf754life]

comedy, homerism at its finest............

Heres to you, Mr. I DON"T HOLD MY MY INEPT HEAD COACH ACCOUNTABLE GUY, only you can justify a decade of mediocrity...............only you can support blind neglect by the front office.....only you can accept picking up other teams trash.............


so mix up a big pitcher of orange kool aid rev, and enjoy that sweet sweet taste of homerism, and while your at it, maybe mikey mansion will let you live in one of his 237 rooms at the house that patty bowlen built..............

[Atlas]

Let's get to the bottom of this once and for all:

You're a ****ing moron.

You were a large Shanahan fan and supporter up to a couple years ago.

You didn't like Plummer. Shanahan drafts a top shelf QB and a safety valve TE and 2 gems in the fourth.

The next year you didn't like the pass rush and Mike's neglect for the lines. So he devotes 100% of the picks to the lines.

You bash him for no reason because you've wanted every ****ing move he's made. You just want to be a little contrarian fruit to push peoples buttons because no one will pay attention to you in real life or you're a bandwagoner that can't handle a 7-9 season. Call a psychiatrist and shut the **** up.

(My apologies go out to all the mods for use of foul language, but can anyone think this ****stick doesn't deserve worse?)

That's why I hav ethat troll on ignore.

[Cito Pelon]

That's why I hav ethat troll on ignore.

His 'Mikey Mansion' moniker is pretty funny. I realize some people think Shanahan is the shiz, I'm not in that camp. Shanahan is way over his ability level. Shanahan is basically a good OC, beyond that he hasn't proven much lately. Gawd, last year was a joke by Denver standards. He hires Jim Bates who nobody in the entire League is interested in and makes him Assistant Head Coach. The ensuing defensive season is the worst in Broncoland since 1967. Some of you guys really have to get your noses out of Shanny's ass. One AFC West title and one playoff win since 1998 is the worst stretch in Broncoland since 1977. He drafts an OT last year that has to have back surgery in his rookie season when everybody knew the kid had to have back surgery. Shanny burns a 3d rounder on an OT with a bad back? How much dumber can one get? Denver needs an OT, and Shanny drafts a kid that needs back surgery? I can go on and on about the ridiculous moves Shanahan has made as grand-poobah. Shanahan is pretty much a joke except as an OC. Makes Dale Carter the highest-paid D player in NFl history? I knew right then the man had idiot tendencies. Gives Brian Griese, the slowest player I've ever seen in the NFL, a $36 million contract? The list of idjit moves goes on and on. All would be fine, but one AFC West title and one playoff win since 1998? The other playoff appearances total, complete ass-kickings from the opening whistle. Obviously Shanahan has done a poor job by Bronco standards, I don't get the ass-kissing people provide Shanny with.

[Rohirrim]

All I know is that when I watched a replay of the Broncos/Steelers game last week, once again I saw the Broncos get down inside the five, and on the next snap the Oline was driven backwards. I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen that.

[wolf754life]

very refreshing cito, very refreshing, thanks for being rational and calling a spade a spade. Lets hope the rat can make the right moves for once today................

[TheReverend]

comedy, homerism at its finest............

Heres to you, Mr. I DON"T HOLD MY MY INEPT HEAD COACH ACCOUNTABLE GUY, only you can justify a decade of mediocrity...............only you can support blind neglect by the front office.....only you can accept picking up other teams trash.............


so mix up a big pitcher of orange kool aid rev, and enjoy that sweet sweet taste of homerism, and while your at it, maybe mikey mansion will let you live in one of his 237 rooms at the house that patty bowlen built..............

I can't think of anyone who could step back and look at the past ten years of the Broncos and the turmoil involved in the departure of Elway and TDs injury and Sharpes retirement and the changing into a new guard and still competing on an annual basis, and still being top 5 in wins, yards and points, and shifting through three seperate QBs while suffering only two losing seasons and somehow refer to that as mediocre.

No homerism. You're just an idiot. You deserved to be fired, Sunquist.

[TheReverend]

That's why I hav ethat troll on ignore.

You are a much smarter man than I.

I'm fundamentally against the ignore feature. It's a forum and we're all here to share our takes and observe different opinions and learn from each other. So somehow wolf, Bob, Crazyhorse, raiderfans, all get a pass because someday they may grow up into a Naptown or 400HZ or TheNextStep. One person HAS managed to hit my ignore list, but that's from idiocy and not due to irritating repition of a different opinion.

[Northman]

You are a much smarter man than I.

I'm fundamentally against the ignore feature. It's a forum and we're all here to share our takes and observe different opinions and learn from each other. So somehow wolf, Bob, Crazyhorse, raiderfans, all get a pass because someday they may grow up into a Naptown or 400HZ or TheNextStep. One person HAS managed to hit my ignore list, but that's from idiocy and not due to irritating repition of a different opinion.


Well said although some of those cases might take a bit longer.

[TheReverend]

This message is hidden because Anubis is on your ignore list.




















KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!! Love ya, Anubis

[Mediator12]

So let me get this straight...

You're trying to tell me that 3 guys who start the season combining for 0 starts in a Denver uni, and a 2nd year UDFA, haven't mastered superior execution of the system yet?!?!?! GTFO!!!!!!!! :spit:

Wow, I know you like to exaggerate as much as I do, but you are missing the point. The OL held NO advantages over a powerful front seven on Defense last year. And they were dominated like a JV front in those games.

Will the OL suddenly gel again this year with even more transition on the OL with inferior athletes? That is a hell of a leap REV, because the DL are quicker and heavier EVERY week, not just at the elite level like Sapp and White who are sure fire HOF'ers. You used to see those guys once or twice a season, now you see much more Athletically talented DL all around. Plus, the guys DEN had were veterans who had solid technique and savy in the system, something the young guys lack.

It is easy to see that, in fact the whole rest of the league sees it, including former DEN employees like Lombardi who were there in the FO. DEN used to get by in the trenches, now they are not even playing even on either side. They are still able to run because of the system, but the passing game continues to deteriorate at that expense. And, when your defense is NOT able to keep games close so the threat of a run is imminent the passing game has NO chance as it is predicated off PA and rollouts with this OL.

I know you think the OL needs time to gel, but at what expense currently. Just in order to get 1 of 3 advantages in the running game back? They certainly are not going to win the quickness or strength battles in their current format. And I, for one, want them to stop trying to get by and start getting more Physical at the POA. They get wore down over the course of a game, instead of wearing other teams down like they should. DEN's running game gets WORSE in the fourth quarter, not better. That is why they have not been able to finish teams off late in games on both sides of the ball. They lose the LOS late in the game and I am tired of that style of football. They do not have to abandon the zone scheme, they just need to get better, more athletic players to implement it.

[TheReverend]

Wow, I know you like to exaggerate as much as I do, but you are missing the point. The OL held NO advantages over a powerful front seven on Defense last year. And they were dominated like a JV front in those games.

Will the OL suddenly gel again this year with even more transition on the OL with inferior athletes? That is a hell of a leap REV, because the DL are quicker and heavier EVERY week, not just at the elite level like Sapp and White who are sure fire HOF'ers. You used to see those guys once or twice a season, now you see much more Athletically talented DL all around. Plus, the guys DEN had were veterans who had solid technique and savy in the system, something the young guys lack.

It is easy to see that, in fact the whole rest of the league sees it, including former DEN employees like Lombardi who were there in the FO. DEN used to get by in the trenches, now they are not even playing even on either side. They are still able to run because of the system, but the passing game continues to deteriorate at that expense. And, when your defense is NOT able to keep games close so the threat of a run is imminent the passing game has NO chance as it is predicated off PA and rollouts with this OL.

I know you think the OL needs time to gel, but at what expense currently. Just in order to get 1 of 3 advantages in the running game back? They certainly are not going to win the quickness or strength battles in their current format. And I, for one, want them to stop trying to get by and start getting more Physical at the POA. They get wore down over the course of a game, instead of wearing other teams down like they should. DEN's running game gets WORSE in the fourth quarter, not better. That is why they have not been able to finish teams off late in games on both sides of the ball. They lose the LOS late in the game and I am tired of that style of football. They do not have to abandon the zone scheme, they just need to get better, more athletic players to implement it.

Wonderful post and I'd organize a skewd retort with cherry picked facts that support my argument and you'd come back and do the same and we can dance all day, as usual.

But really, Med... 30 minutes to the draft. You're killin my buzz.

Best of luck to ya and hope the guys you want are wearing orange and blue... or maybe even some other colors that hit home.

PS. Have you talked to the guy? Lombardi oozes douche from every pore and you cannot walk away from a conversation with a genuinely impressed sensation.