U.S. Only Industrialized Country With Life Expectancy Declining

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Seems we have now fallen to 41st in the world and the U.S. healthcare system ranks 37th on a list of 191 systems compiled by the World Health Organization. How can this be for a the country who outspends every one else in healthcare?

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U.S. Life Expectancy May Have Peaked (http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080422/sc_livescience/uslifeexpectancymayhavepeaked)
ncy May Have Peaked

Christopher Wanjek
LiveScience's Bad Medicine Columnist
LiveScience.com Tue Apr 22, 9:50 AM ET


Life expectancy rates rose for most of Americans over the last four decades by about six years, from an average of about age 71 to age 77. Yet a sizeable portion of the population, mostly in rural regions, saw those modest gains level off and even reverse starting in the 1980s. This is in contrast to all other industrialized nations.

Nearly 20 percent of American women, in fact, experienced either stagnation or a decline in longevity, what researchers at Harvard School of Public Health and the University of Washington call a "reversal of fortunes."

A team led by Harvard's Majid Ezzati published these findings today in the online medical journal PLoS Medicine. The analysis - the first to look at mortality trends county by county - is based on mortality data from the National Center for Health Statistics and population data from the U.S. Census Bureau between 1959 and 2001.

Living large, and less

The findings are troublesome, the researchers said, because life expectancy, along with infant mortality, is a major indicator of the health of a nation. A decline in life expectancy, as is seen during turmoil such as war and famine, is a sign that health and social systems are failing.

This failing trend could easily spread to the rest of the nation, meaning that for the first time in the history of this country, parents will have lived longer than their children.

Hardest hit are regions in the Deep South, along the Mississippi River, in Appalachia and also the southern part of the Midwest reaching into Texas. The culprits - largely preventable with better diet and access to medical services - are diabetes, cancers and heart disease caused by smoking, high blood pressure and obesity.

Two Americas

The U.S. life expectancy already is nothing to brag about. The United States is the wealthiest country on earth, yet the life expectancy of its people is only about 78 years, which places us 41st on the 2008 CIA World Factbook list, behind Bosnia but still edging out Albania.

What the new analysis reveals is the reality of two Americas, one on par with most of Europe and parts of Asia, and another no different than a third world nation. For example, previous research has shown that the U.S. state of Georgia has a life expectancy and infant mortality rate similar to the impoverished Eastern European nation of Georgia. In Harlem, African American men are less likely to reach the age of 65 than men in Bangladesh, according to a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine.

The United States might still be the destination for complicated surgery and cutting-edge procedures, but for the most part it fails its poorest citizens, with about 36 million of them (12 percent of the population, according to the CIA World Factbook) living below the poverty line. As a result, the U.S. healthcare system ranks 37th on a list of 191 systems compiled by the World Health Organization.

Science can't increase life expectancy forever; good ol' inequality will trump it every time. The new longevity analysis should be a wake-up call for voters that this nation isn't No. 1. Maybe it doesn't need to be No. 1, but, given our vast resources, it would be nice to strive for something better than 41st place.

[W*GS]

Seems we have now fallen to 41st in the world and the U.S. healthcare system ranks 37th on a list of 191 systems compiled by the World Health Organization. How can this be for a the country who outspends every one else in healthcare?

The answer is in the article, despite its bias:

Hardest hit are regions in the Deep South, along the Mississippi River, in Appalachia and also the southern part of the Midwest reaching into Texas. The culprits - largely preventable with better diet and access to medical services - are diabetes, cancers and heart disease caused by smoking, high blood pressure and obesity.

Lifestyle choices, in short.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The answer is in the article, despite its bias:
Lifestyle choices, in short.You forgot a couple other points...

but for the most part it fails its poorest citizens, with about 36 million of them (12 percent of the population, according to the CIA World Factbook) living below the poverty line

What the new analysis reveals is the reality of two Americas, one on par with most of Europe and parts of Asia, and another no different than a third world nation.

A decline in life expectancy, as is seen during turmoil such as war and famine, is a sign that health and social systems are failing.

largely preventable with better diet and access to medical services

[baja]

Good find Slug. I hope this thread gets a good going over. This is reflective of what the basic problem is in the US.

Why are many third world countries enjoying a better state of health? The main reason is they eat food that is much less processed it's that simple.

Good luck with that GMO Thedave.

[TheDave]

Good find Slug. I hope this thread gets a good going over. This is reflective of what the basic problem is in the US.

Why are many third world countries enjoying a better state of health? The main reason is they eat food that is much less processed it's that simple.

Good luck with that GMO Thedave.

Poly unsaturated / saturated fats and an ungodly craving for processed sugar and cornsyrup are the the culprits in the america diet not GMO's

[Spider]

I now weigh 220 pounds I feel good at this weight

[baja]

Poly unsaturated / saturated fats and an ungodly craving for processed sugar and cornsyrup are the the culprits in the america diet not GMO's

Over processed denatured food offering marginal nutrition and empty calories along with the substances you mentioned are the basis for the decline in health that Slug's linked article shows but make no mistake GMO's will take us over the edge. How arrogant it is to think we can make better something we do not even understand. There are elements and relationships in natural food that we do not begin to understand. There is a synergy of creation that can't be made better only tampered with. The meek shall inherit the earth.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You forgot a couple other points...

Ha ha ha! Ha!

His feeble attempts to refute anything of substance in the article you posted are hilarious.

Particularly amusing is his accusation of "bias."

"Bias" in favor of whom? People who feel we could do a better job of providing healthcare or keeping Americans healthy?

[W*GS]

Who doesn't know that smoking is bad?

Who doesn't know that being fat is bad?

Who doesn't know that junk food is bad?

Is the point of our health care system to fix up people who have abused their health for decades when it finally catches up to them?

[Bronco Bob]

Over processed denatured food offering marginal nutrition and empty calories along with the substances you mentioned are the basis for the decline in health that Slug's linked article shows but make no mistake GMO's will take us over the edge. How arrogant it is to think we can make better something we do not even understand. There are elements and relationships in natural food that we do not begin to understand. There is a synergy of creation that can't be made better only tampered with. The meek shall inherit the earth.

We've been modifying food since we stopped being hunter/gatherers and
became farmers. Foods like corn couldn't even exist in the wild. It's
a completely man made crop, has been for hundreds of years. Carrots
too are a man made product, bred from a plant called queen anne's lace.
Chickens don't exits in the wild, another man made food. This far left
lunacy about GMO is just more anti-corporate nuttiness. The reason
people are fat and unhealthy is they don't want to get off their asses
and move. If you check, one of the reasons people in other countries
are healthier is they get more exercise. They do a lot more walking,
for instance.

[baja]

Take a look at degenerative disease increase in the last fifty years in America it is off the chart. Take a look at the nutritional content of the food post WWII as compared to pre WWII. You are talking a very short period of time when you point out the alteration of food in your post Bob and if you look a cancer, heart disease, diabetes, Alzheimer's, ADD and other degenerative diseases over that time you will find a steady increase with the increases spiking in recent years. "You are what you eat" as well as "You are what you think". Just look at people eating living natural food compared to people subsisting on the standard American diet (SAD). Walk into a regular grocery store and look at the shoppers then go to a really good organic food store and compare the people there to the people you observed at the other standard market. The difference will shock you.

[Bronco Jamus]

The answer is in the article, despite its bias:



Lifestyle choices, in short.

And that's what it boils down to, lifestyle choices.

[Spider]

People today are lazy , not their fault , I was lazy compared ot the generation before me , I used to buck 90 pound hail bails for 12 hour days during the summer + my normal chores , Dig post holes with a shovel , as well as irrigate , shovel sand out of irrigation ditches .......By the time I was 16 , I was out working men on construction sites , but in todays world a fella doesnt have to work that hard any more

[Spider]

Man did hate chopping fire wood ........

[spdirty]

I know I gotta quit chewing soon or Ill be part of this.

[Spider]

I know I gotta quit chewing soon or Ill be part of this.

I have tried to quit so many times , even tried the kid stuff like Kodiak , redwood , some of that other candy stuff , but I go right back to Copenhagen

[TheDave]

Over processed denatured food offering marginal nutrition and empty calories along with the substances you mentioned are the basis for the decline in health that Slug's linked article shows but make no mistake GMO's will take us over the edge. How arrogant it is to think we can make better something we do not even understand. There are elements and relationships in natural food that we do not begin to understand. There is a synergy of creation that can't be made better only tampered with. The meek shall inherit the earth.

Cut the arrogant crap... Man has been arrogant enough to make things better since he invented the wheel. Your psuedo-science based fears are rediculous... Relax. Genetically modified foods have been around since the first wind carried pollens from one field to the next. Why is it that when "nature" does it everything is OK but if man does this then we are all doomed?

Seriously Baja, you need to come up with a new hobby. The one where every time anything is discussed you tell us that we are doomed is getting real old.

[spdirty]

I have tried to quit so many times , even tried the kid stuff like Kodiak , redwood , some of that other candy stuff , but I go right back to Copenhagen

Me too. Ive tried the nicorette gum, regular gum, seeds, and that beef jerky chew, but always go back to cope long cut. **** is so damn addictive. Meanwhile I see in the mirror every morning how much I need to quit as my gums are receeding more and more. Just need to go cold turkey.

Im gonna try it starting right now. Maybe set a goal of 24 hours without chew, then work to 48, and so on. Yeah, I just took the chew out of my mouth and thats what Im gonna try to do. So if I am a total a-hole to everyone here for the next 2 weeks, thats a good thing.

Spider, you try doing it with me. Starting right now, we can be total dlcks to everyone cuz we are quittin.

[TheDave]

I have tried to quit so many times , even tried the kid stuff like Kodiak , redwood , some of that other candy stuff , but I go right back to Copenhagen

I knew there was a reason I liked you... :thumbs:

[Spider]

Me too. Ive tried the nicorette gum, regular gum, seeds, and that beef jerky chew, but always go back to cope long cut. **** is so damn addictive. Meanwhile I see in the mirror every morning how much I need to quit as my gums are receeding more and more. Just need to go cold turkey.

Im gonna try it starting right now. Maybe set a goal of 24 hours without chew, then work to 48, and so on. Yeah, I just took the chew out of my mouth and thats what Im gonna try to do. So if I am a total a-hole to everyone here for the next 2 weeks, thats a good thing.

Spider, you try doing it with me. Starting right now, we can be total dlcks to everyone cuz we are quittin.

;D good luck

[TheDave]

Me too. Ive tried the nicorette gum, regular gum, seeds, and that beef jerky chew, but always go back to cope long cut. **** is so damn addictive. Meanwhile I see in the mirror every morning how much I need to quit as my gums are receeding more and more. Just need to go cold turkey.

Im gonna try it starting right now. Maybe set a goal of 24 hours without chew, then work to 48, and so on. Yeah, I just took the chew out of my mouth and thats what Im gonna try to do. So if I am a total a-hole to everyone here for the next 2 weeks, thats a good thing.

Spider, you try doing it with me. Starting right now, we can be total dlcks to everyone cuz we are quittin.

Try Cope pouches... At least then you can get it out from the same spot and move it around your mouth more.

[Spider]

I knew there was a reason I liked you... :thumbs:

;D thanks

[spdirty]

;D good luck

Oh your not gonna try it with me. Come on man. I need to know that someone is suffering from withdraw with me.

[spdirty]

Try Cope pouches... At least then you can get it out from the same spot and move it around your mouth more.

Nope. Cold turkey starting 5 minutes ago. Just threw a nearly full can of cope long cut in the trash. Its on.

[Spider]

Try Cope pouches... At least then you can get it out from the same spot and move it around your mouth more.

cope patches ?

[Spider]

Oh your not gonna try it with me. Come on man. I need to know that someone is suffering from withdraw with me.

I wish I could , but I dont want to lie to you....... ;D

[TheDave]

Nope. Cold turkey starting 5 minutes ago.

Fair enough, but when you fold try the pouch... :thumbs:

[TheDave]

cope patches ?

Copenhagen Pouches...

[Spider]

Copenhagen Pouches...

I havent heard of em ....

[TheDave]

I havent heard of em ....

Mans greatest invention... well next to GMO's ;D

[Spider]

Mans greatest invention... well next to GMO's ;D

;D I will have to check it out .........thanks for the tip

[spdirty]

Fair enough, but when you fold try the pouch... :thumbs:

Im not gonna fold. I'm sick and tired of being a slave to the shlt. Been doing it 5 years 1/2, for 12-16 hours a day so itll be tough.

[Spider]

Im not gonna fold. I'm sick and tired of being a slave to the shlt. Been doing it 5 years 1/2, for 12-16 hours a day so itll be tough.

28 years for me ....

[Bronco Bob]

Take a look at degenerative disease increase in the last fifty years in America it is off the chart. Take a look at the nutritional content of the food post WWII as compared to pre WWII. You are talking a very short period of time when you point out the alteration of food in your post Bob and if you look a cancer, heart disease, diabetes, Alzheimer's, ADD and other degenerative diseases over that time you will find a steady increase with the increases spiking in recent years. "You are what you eat" as well as "You are what you think". Just look at people eating living natural food compared to people subsisting on the standard American diet (SAD). Walk into a regular grocery store and look at the shoppers then go to a really good organic food store and compare the people there to the people you observed at the other standard market. The difference will shock you.

Never said highly processed food was all that great to eat. But it isn't GMO
that is causing these problems. It's things like trans-fats and high fructose
corn syrup that have replaced natural foods like lard, butter, and sugar
that are the main culprits. My only point is we have been modifying how food
grows and coming up with new, more efficient crops and livestock since we
first started farming. Ever seen a wild tomato? Not much to it. GMO and
cloning are no different other than being faster and more reliable.

[baja]

Man did hate chopping fire wood ........

I heated with wood for 10 winters in Victor Co (10,000 feet) I loved going out in late September and early October and getting fire wood for the winter and a great joy of mine was splitting fire wood early in the morning, it was like a meditation.

[TheDave]

Im not gonna fold. I'm sick and tired of being a slave to the shlt. Been doing it 5 years 1/2, for 12-16 hours a day so itll be tough.

Your going to fold... Just move to the pouches. Solve the receding gumms issue and move on. :thumbs:

[Spider]

I heated with wood for 10 winters in Victor Co (10,000 feet) I loved going out in late September and early October and getting fire wood for the winter and a great joy of mine was splitting fire wood early in the morning, it was like a meditation.

I hated it

[baja]

Your going to fold... Just move to the pouches. Solve the receding gumms issue and move on. :thumbs:

I transferred a 30 year cigarette habit to a Cophengagen habit that carried on for about 3 years.

The day I quit I thought I was going to kill someone every five minutes. The second day I thought I was going to kill myself every 15 minutes. By the third day it was just really really bad every 30 minutes or so. After 5 days I would go several hours without even thinking about it. The second week I experienced only slight agitation and the mind tricks started, this is what gets most of us. The mind says things like, "see that wasn't so hard so now you can have a little pinch in the morning every other day and before you can say 'ah shiit' are right back at it full force. The secret is to make an air tight pact with yourself that you will never put that shiit in your mouth again no matter what. It is just not an option and if you are serious without doubt or reservation it will be relatively easy to quit.

It really is mostly in the head...

[TheDave]

I transferred a 30 year cigarette habit to a Cophengagen habit that carried on for about 3 years.

The day I quit I thought I was going to kill someone every five minutes. The second day I thought I was going to kill myself every 15 minutes. By the third day it was just really really bad every 30 minutes or so. After 5 days I would go several hours without even thinking about it. The second week I experienced only slight agitation and the mind tricks started, this is what gets most of us. The mind says things like, "see that wasn't so hard not you can have a little pinch in the morning every other day and soon you are right back at it full force. The secret is to make an air tight pact with yourself that you will never put that shiit in your mouth again no matter what. It is just not an option and if you are serious without doubt or reservation it will be relatively easy to quit.

I quit for 10 months... every single day i wanted a chew just as bad as the first day i quit. It was absolutely the worst type of "craving" i have ever gone through. Finally switched over to pouches (no more spit cups or chew between the teeth :))

Now that i have read some of these new studies on Chew and mouth/throat cancer i doubt i will bother trying to quit again... but at $6 a can it is becoming rediculously expensive.

[baja]

I can say with 100% certainty that when you make you mind up that you are done, I mean 100% no negotiations done it becomes surprisingly easy. Those that have done this will confirm this.

When you know you are done you are done.

[baja]

You will not believe on how many levels your life will improve. How you feel about yourself being one of the most important differences.

[Bronco Jamus]

I can say with 100% certainty that when you make you mind up that you are done, I mean 100% no negotiations done it becomes surprisingly easy. Those that have done this will confirm this.

When you know you are done you are done.

I agree.

[broncocalijohn]

I like equal opportunity. I see women are declining in life expectantcy so I guess they are hearing them nag themselves to death like they do the male population.

[loborugger]

Poly unsaturated / saturated fats and an ungodly craving for processed sugar and cornsyrup are the the culprits in the america diet not GMO's

In the 10 months I have been in Bolivia - a country largely devoid of processed foods - and I have dropped 30 to 40 lbs. Now, I have been working out a lot and walking a lot, but I am pretty sure the food is the biggest part of the success story. Afterall, I was working out pretty damn hard in the states.

[baja]

Anyone that wants a comprehensive lowdown on this subject PM me for a few links.

[spdirty]

Oh my God. Someone please just put a ****ing gun to my head and shoot me. 10 hours now. I really wanted to hit my old man today, just for being there. Nearly cried a couple times. God if I could just get through the first 2 weeks I know Ill be good. Man, have to last till 8:30 tomorrow, then we can go from there.

[baja]

Oh my God. Someone please just put a ****ing gun to my head and shoot me. 10 hours now. I really wanted to hit my old man today, just for being there. Nearly cried a couple times. God if I could just get through the first 2 weeks I know Ill be good. Man, have to last till 8:30 tomorrow, then we can go from there.

I don't know how open minded you are but if you want some real help beating this addiction check this out;

http://www.transformationalbreathing.com/

[TheDave]

Oh my God. Someone please just put a ****ing gun to my head and shoot me. 10 hours now. I really wanted to hit my old man today, just for being there. Nearly cried a couple times. God if I could just get through the first 2 weeks I know Ill be good. Man, have to last till 8:30 tomorrow, then we can go from there.

https://www.lilbrown.com/prodpics/CopenhagenPouch.jpg

[Spider]

I am not doing well myself ..........

[TheDave]

Just put one in... Nothing like an after dinner chew.

mmmmm....

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The best way to quit tobacco is............quit. Realize you're nothing more than a slave to the bastards that produce it and sell it to you, it is absolutley terrible for your health and well being and it demeans you in the eyes of your loved ones, friends and children.

[spdirty]

I don't know how open minded you are but if you want some real help beating this addiction check this out;

http://www.transformationalbreathing.com/

what the **** does that have to do with quitting cope

[TheDave]

The best way to quit tobacco is............quit.

I quit reading right there...

[spdirty]

The best way to quit tobacco is............quit. Realize you're nothing more than a slave to the bastards that produce it and sell it to you, it is absolutley terrible for your health and well being and it demeans you in the eyes of your loved ones, friends and children.

yeah dude, thats, well, you couldnt possibly be closer to the truth than what you said right there.

Its just hard. Real hard. I seriously dont remember ever being this angry. I hope spiders doing ok. i know he isn't, but hope he is.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I quit reading right there...Too bad, most people are so overwhelmed and controlled by it they do to.
yeah dude, thats, well, you couldnt possibly be closer to the truth than what you said right there.

Its just hard. Real hard. I seriously dont remember ever being this angry. I hope spiders doing ok. i know he isn't, but hope he is.Yes it is, I know from experience but you have to decide you want control of your life and body back and do it.

[spdirty]

Just put one in... Nothing like an after dinner chew.

mmmmm....

Just be happy Im not around. Really hate you right now.

[TheDave]

Too bad, most people are so overwhelmed and controlled by it they do to.

Considering it's about the most addictive substance known to man... yeah i agree with that. Problem is for someone to really quit they have to want it. Trying it on a whim like the 2 nuts on this thread are... isn't going to work. As for the rest of your post the "Health" aspects are completely overblown and everyones family is different. Not sure about your world but my friends, children, and family don't look down on me for it.

[spdirty]

Yes it is, I know from experience but you have to decide you want control of your life and body back and do it.

Well, I wont tell my friends or family till about a week into it. Don't wanna disappoint em again.

I give myself about a 40% shot of successfully quittin this time.

[Spider]

yeah dude, thats, well, you couldnt possibly be closer to the truth than what you said right there.

Its just hard. Real hard. I seriously dont remember ever being this angry. I hope spiders doing ok. i know he isn't, but hope he is.

no and I am regretting throwing that can down the toilet ....... I am sofa King we todd did

[Spider]

Just put one in... Nothing like an after dinner chew.

mmmmm....

you are so not helping ;D.......I gave up booze , sugar , I will kick this habit

[Spider]

I am getting a splitting headache right now ........

[TheDave]

you are so not helping ;D.......I gave up booze , sugar , I will kick this habit

Hey, i wish the best for both you guys... but im not betting on it.;D

[spdirty]

Considering it's about the most addictive substance known to man... yeah i agree with that. Problem is for someone to really quit they have to want it. Trying it on a whim like the 2 nuts on this thread are... isn't going to work.



Ive been wanting to quit for years. Giving it another shot today. Im gonna lose my teeth if I dont stop. And I cant have that.

Not sure about your world but my friends, children, and family don't look down on me for it.

Mine do. And bottom line, I dont care. Ive tried quitting for them, it hasnt worked. This time I wanna quit for me. And no one else. I dont want to tell anyone, except, you know, the strangers on here of course, but my family doesnt need to know.

Just kills me, you know, every time i look in that mirror, and see where my gums use to be, and where they are now, I bet my bottom teeth are gone in 18 months. Just have to stop that.

[TheDave]

Ive been wanting to quit for years. Giving it another shot today. Im gonna lose my teeth if I dont stop. And I cant have that.



Mine do. And bottom line, I dont care. Ive tried quitting for them, it hasnt worked. This time I wanna quit for me. And no one else. I dont want to tell anyone, except, you know, the strangers on here of course, but my family doesnt need to know.

Just kills me, you know, every time i look in that mirror, and see where my gums use to be, and where they are now, I bet my bottom teeth are gone in 18 months. Just have to stop that.


If it really means that much to you boss... then i like your odds a hell of a lot better. Sincerly good luck to you both... I'll excuse myself and stop ****ing with ya'

[spdirty]

If it really means that much to you boss... then i like your odds a hell of a lot better. Sincerly good luck to you both... I'll excuse myself and stop ****ing with ya'

I dont know man...but thanks for the support.

[Spider]

.. I'll excuse myself and stop ****ing with ya'

Dont know if I would be using that term on a truck driver ;D

[TheDave]

Dont know if I would be using that term on a truck driver ;D


Especially one that is suffering a "nic fit"

[Spider]

Especially one that is suffering a "nic fit"

:rofl: I wont go there , but it involved you wearing falsies on your back

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Considering it's about the most addictive substance known to man... yeah i agree with that. Problem is for someone to really quit they have to want it. Trying it on a whim like the 2 nuts on this thread are... isn't going to work. As for the rest of your post the "Health" aspects are completely overblown and everyones family is different. Not sure about your world but my friends, children, and family don't look down on me for it.Believe me, most people consider people addicted to tobacco as inferior, less intelligent.

And the health "aspects" are completely real to millions and millions of people.

[baja]

Just put one in... Nothing like an after dinner chew.

mmmmm....

Why is it addicted folks like company?

[baja]

what the **** does that have to do with quitting cope

I guess you weren't even open minded to read about the benefits.

This style of breathing super oxygenates the body on the cellular level and eases all kinds of addictions.

I do understand you are a tad grouchy right now though... ;D

[baja]

Considering it's about the most addictive substance known to man... yeah i agree with that. Problem is for someone to really quit they have to want it. Trying it on a whim like the 2 nuts on this thread are... isn't going to work. <b>As for the rest of your post the "Health" aspects are completely overblown </b>and everyones family is different. Not sure about your world but my friends, children, and family don't look down on me for it.

This is called denial, an addicts best friend.

[baja]

Well, I wont tell my friends or family till about a week into it. Don't wanna disappoint em again.

I give myself about a 40% shot of successfully quittin this time.

Than you won't stop. You will have to bump that up to 100%, than you will do it and with relative ease too. Been there.

[TheDave]

I'm not going to get into it... BUT, lets just say I've actually read some very well done exhaustive studies and I wholeheartedly stand by my opinion.

[baja]

I am getting a splitting headache right now ........

Take some really deep breaths, Shut up and do it Oxygen is your friend right now breath deeply and the cravings will pass, this I promise you both.

[TexanBob]

But if more people are dying, shouldn't the liberals be happy? Liberals are the ones always whining about overpopulation.

(I realize this is a trick question since liberals are never happy.)

[baja]

I'm not going to get into it... BUT, lets just say I've actually read some very well done exhaustive studies and I wholeheartedly stand by my opinion.

Ya I read some of those reports, convient!!!

Here's a pic of what my lower front gums looked like;

http://www.medscape.com/content/2001/00/41/08/410808/art-smj9406.14.fig8.jpg

Now if you want to tell yourself that's harmless be my guest but thats denial bro....

[baja]

http://www.quittobacco.com/facts/recesint.jpg

[baja]

http://www.anti-smoking.org/images/chewlip.jpg

[baja]

Yep this shiit is good for ya

http://www.bansmoking.org.ly/img/image004.jpg

[TheDave]

Ooohhh scary pictures devoid of facts... color me unimpressed.

[baja]

dave says hmmm have an after dinner chew


http://www.chokesmokes.org/images/RickBender.jpg

[baja]

Ooohhh scary pictures devoid of facts... color me unimpressed.

Bro you got the denial thingy bad. Just what do you think caused the damage inthose pictures.

My mouth was worse that that first photo and six month after i quit my gums were completely normal that's right they grew back. I would not lie to you about this Dave. You know that about me I think.

[TheDave]

Bro you got the denial thingy bad. Just what do you think caused the damage inthose pictures.

My mouth was worse that that first photo and six month after i quit my gums were completely normal that's right they grew back. I would not lie to you about this Dave. You know that about me I think.

and if you think I'm just running around in denial you don't know me... Studies that i have read put the risks associated with Copenhagen at between .06% and 1.7%. Fact is todays moist chew caries TSNA (tobacco-specific nitrosamines) levels at less than 4 ppm (parts per million). All studies done using lab animals were at least 5ppm and thats on animals weighing less than 1 lb.

As for your issues. Maybe you were part of that small percentage... Maybe there were other factors. I have no idea, but if I really thought this would kill me trust me it would of been gone long ago.

[spdirty]

thanks baja. I just, I dont know whats wrong with me, I just put 2 holes in my wall for no reason. I really want to hit someone right now. Deep breaths I guess.

[baja]

Dave clearly it's your life and non of my business. All I'd like to share is I know how I felt when I chewed and how I felt after I quit. All I can tell ya is the benefits far outweigh the (false sense of) enjoyment I received regardless of health issues.

I only bother to say anything because I like you.;D

[baja]

thanks baja. I just, I dont know whats wrong with me, I just put 2 holes in my wall for no reason. I really want to hit someone right now. Deep breaths I guess.

The breathing really helps and I found a brisk walk helped too. Do not be afraid to pray for strength, it works. Do not think about tomorrow you just have to get through the next 10 minutes when that passes than you can deal with the next ten minutes. Remember just ten minutes.

[baja]

It will get easier

[baja]

http://members.rediff.com/drkhosla/Images/tobacco.jpg

[Bronco_Beerslug]

and if you think I'm just running around in denial you don't know me... Studies that i have read put the risks associated with Copenhagen at between .06% and 1.7%. Fact is todays moist chew caries TSNA (tobacco-specific nitrosamines) levels at less than 4 ppm (parts per million). All studies done using lab animals were at least 5ppm and thats on animals weighing less than 1 lb.

As for your issues. Maybe you were part of that small percentage... Maybe there were other factors. I have no idea, but if I really thought this would kill me trust me it would of been gone long ago.Ah, the ole "it's not really that bad" that's why I chew spiel.
Some people don't get cancer or other nasty diseases from tobacco, some do. The question is, why would anyone ever want to see which person they are?

A few things about sticking tobacco in your oral cavity...

---------------------------------------------------
Cavities (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/chewing-tobacco/CA00019)
Chewing tobacco and other forms of smokeless tobacco cause tooth decay. That's because chewing tobacco contains high amounts of sugar, which contributes to cavities. Chewing tobacco also contains coarse particles that can irritate your gums and scratch away at the enamel on your teeth, making your teeth more vulnerable to cavities.

Gum disease
The sugar and irritants in chewing tobacco and other forms of smokeless tobacco can cause your gums to pull away from your teeth in the area of your mouth where you place the chew. Over time you can develop gum disease (gingivitis) and possibly tooth loss.

Heart problems and non-oral cancer
Smokeless tobacco increases your heart rate and blood pressure. Some evidence suggests that it may put you at an increased risk of heart attack. People who use smokeless tobacco also have higher cholesterol levels than those who don't use tobacco. And a study published in June 2007 in the medical journal The Lancet showed a connection between the use of one form of smokeless tobacco (snus) and an increased risk of pancreatic cancer.

Precancerous mouth lesions
People who use smokeless tobacco are more likely to develop small white patches called leukoplakia (loo-ko-PLA-ke-uh) inside their mouths where the chew is most often placed. These mouth lesions are precancerous — meaning that the sores could one day develop into cancer. After stopping tobacco usage, the lesions usually go away in a few weeks or a few months.

Oral cancer
Your risk of oral cancer is increased if you use smokeless tobacco. Oral cancer includes cancers of the mouth, throat, cheek, gums, lips and tongue. Surgery to remove cancer from any of these areas can leave your jaw, chin, neck or face disfigured.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
*

Chewing tobacco and snuff contain 28 carcinogens (http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Tobacco/smokeless)(cancer–causing agents). The most harmful carcinogens in smokeless tobacco are the tobacco–specific nitrosamines (TSNAs). They are formed during the growing, curing, fermenting, and aging of tobacco. TSNAs have been detected in some smokeless tobacco products at levels many times higher than levels of other types of nitrosamines that are allowed in foods, such as bacon and beer.
*

Other cancer–causing substances in smokeless tobacco include N–nitrosamino acids, volatile N–nitrosamines, benzo(a)pyrene, volatile aldehydes, formaldehyde, acetaldehyde, crotonaldehyde, hydrazine, arsenic, nickel, cadmium, benzopyrene, and polonium–210.
*

All tobacco, including smokeless tobacco, contains nicotine, which is addictive. The amount of nicotine absorbed from smokeless tobacco is 3 to 4 times the amount delivered by a cigarette. Nicotine is absorbed more slowly from smokeless tobacco than from cigarettes, but more nicotine per dose is absorbed from smokeless tobacco than from cigarettes. Also, the nicotine stays in the bloodstream for a longer time.

[spdirty]

Woke up feelin pretty good this morning. Almost 22 hours now. Very proud of myself that I made it a day without chew. Good stuff slug.

man Im so proud of myself. 1 day, and have a can sitting there in the kitchen. Made it. did it. Don't need this shlt anymore. 100% positive Im gonna do it this time.

[baja]

Just for today.....


NO CHEW


Congrats on getting the toughest day behind you.

[Spider]

I folded like a`cheap bed after a all night porno shoot ........... took a dip this morning .....

[baja]

Maybe you need to refocus your determination on things that are good for you and leave the fighting for the young uns ;D


I knew this was not your time when you said, "I hope so"

[Spider]

Maybe you need to refocus your determination on things that are good for you and leave the fighting for the young uns ;D


I knew this was not your time when you said, "I hope so" cant believe that thread got wiped out

[baja]

It's alive and well in the Butt

It's the best forum anyway - nowhere to go from there.

[Spider]

I wil look again

[spdirty]

Just for today.....


NO CHEW


Congrats on getting the toughest day behind you.

thanks. 15 minutes will officially be 24 hours. I got this now.

[spdirty]

I folded like a`cheap bed after a all night porno shoot ........... took a dip this morning .....

its not your time yet dude. But thanks for suffering with me. Man I bet you were high as a kite this morning when you put that dip in. :flower:

[Spider]

its not your time yet dude. But thanks for suffering with me.

Hang in there big man ...........but iam getting the pouches

[spdirty]

Id bet the pouches are a bit less damaging. I just didnt like em when I tried em.

[Spider]

Id bet the pouches are a bit less damaging. I just didnt like em when I tried em.

believe it or not , i dont have much damage , I have to get a dot Physical every 2 years ....... they do check the mouth and throat .... I get asked every time do you chew ? I answer yes , then they go into their little spiel about how it is harmful ...........

[spdirty]

I get that every time I go to the dentist. But then the dentist will bltch at me if I forgot to floss 3 weeks ago.

Anyway spider, if your convinced you cannot try again and start over, and that it isnt time, go to the pouches. Id bet my ass that while they arent totally harmless, they aren't nearly as bad as snuff or long cut.

Damage to my gums is pretty bad. Lookin in the mirror is what got me to do this and has gotten me through the last 24. I know I'm gonna do this now.

[Spider]

I get that every time I go to the dentist. But then the dentist will bltch at me if I forgot to floss 3 weeks ago.

Anyway spider, if your convinced you cannot try again and start over, and that it isnt time, go to the pouches. Id bet my ass that while they arent totally harmless, they aren't nearly as bad as snuff or long cut.

Damage to my gums is pretty bad. Lookin in the mirror is what got me to do this and has gotten me through the last 24. I know I'm gonna do this now.

More power to you bro

[baja]

Id bet the pouches are a bit less damaging. I just didnt like em when I tried em.

See this is how the mind plays tricks on ya. you start thinking well maybe if I use the pouches it won't be that bad for me.

Do yourself a favor don't go there with your thinking. There is no way to make this OK

just say NO ..... ha ha (but it works)

[spdirty]

See this is how the mind plays tricks on ya. you start thinking well maybe if I use the pouches it won't be that bad for me.

Do yourself a favor don't go there with your thinking. There is no way to make this OK

just say NO ..... ha ha (but it works)

just got through 24 hours of hell. There is no way Ill waste that 24 hours of hell by going back to it or going to pouches or anything like that. All Im doing now is seeds, jerky chew, and gum.

[TheDave]

Ah, the ole "it's not really that bad" that's why I chew spiel.
Some people don't get cancer or other nasty diseases from tobacco, some do. The question is, why would anyone ever want to see which person they are?

A few things about sticking tobacco in your oral cavity...

---------------------------------------------------
Cavities (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/chewing-tobacco/CA00019)
Chewing tobacco and other forms of smokeless tobacco cause tooth decay. That's because chewing tobacco contains high amounts of sugar, which contributes to cavities. Chewing tobacco also contains coarse particles that can irritate your gums and scratch away at the enamel on your teeth, making your teeth more vulnerable to cavities.

Gum disease
The sugar and irritants in chewing tobacco and other forms of smokeless tobacco can cause your gums to pull away from your teeth in the area of your mouth where you place the chew. Over time you can develop gum disease (gingivitis) and possibly tooth loss.

Heart problems and non-oral cancer
Smokeless tobacco increases your heart rate and blood pressure. Some evidence suggests that it may put you at an increased risk of heart attack. People who use smokeless tobacco also have higher cholesterol levels than those who don't use tobacco. And a study published in June 2007 in the medical journal The Lancet showed a connection between the use of one form of smokeless tobacco (snus) and an increased risk of pancreatic cancer.

Precancerous mouth lesions
People who use smokeless tobacco are more likely to develop small white patches called leukoplakia (loo-ko-PLA-ke-uh) inside their mouths where the chew is most often placed. These mouth lesions are precancerous — meaning that the sores could one day develop into cancer. After stopping tobacco usage, the lesions usually go away in a few weeks or a few months.

Oral cancer
Your risk of oral cancer is increased if you use smokeless tobacco. Oral cancer includes cancers of the mouth, throat, cheek, gums, lips and tongue. Surgery to remove cancer from any of these areas can leave your jaw, chin, neck or face disfigured.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
*

Chewing tobacco and snuff contain 28 carcinogens (http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Tobacco/smokeless)(cancer–causing agents). The most harmful carcinogens in smokeless tobacco are the tobacco–specific nitrosamines (TSNAs). They are formed during the growing, curing, fermenting, and aging of tobacco. TSNAs have been detected in some smokeless tobacco products at levels many times higher than levels of other types of nitrosamines that are allowed in foods, such as bacon and beer.
*

Other cancer–causing substances in smokeless tobacco include N–nitrosamino acids, volatile N–nitrosamines, benzo(a)pyrene, volatile aldehydes, formaldehyde, acetaldehyde, crotonaldehyde, hydrazine, arsenic, nickel, cadmium, benzopyrene, and polonium–210.
*

All tobacco, including smokeless tobacco, contains nicotine, which is addictive. The amount of nicotine absorbed from smokeless tobacco is 3 to 4 times the amount delivered by a cigarette. Nicotine is absorbed more slowly from smokeless tobacco than from cigarettes, but more nicotine per dose is absorbed from smokeless tobacco than from cigarettes. Also, the nicotine stays in the bloodstream for a longer time.

Ah, the old cut and paste a bunch of stuff without realy understanding what it is your reading... I already answered what the "odds" are. Sorry but i'm not that concerened by an up to 1.7% chance. Hell my odds are much worse driving to work, and no i can't stop doing that either.

[baja]

I always say you can never get enough of other cancer–causing substances in smokeless tobacco, including N–nitrosamino acids, volatile N–nitrosamines, benzo(a)pyrene, volatile aldehydes, formaldehyde, acetaldehyde, crotonaldehyde, hydrazine, arsenic, nickel, cadmium, benzopyrene, and polonium–210 in your body.

[spdirty]

Well, after 33 hours I had a pouch. Now Im gonna go 48. Im gonna do this. Just had a minor setback, but I got this. Im not gonna do this by going straight cold turkey. I think setting goals, like, I just went 33 hours, then put a pouch in for an hour. Now I can go 48, and put one in for 45 minutes. Then I can go 72 and put one in for 30 minutes. Then 96 hours and put one in for 15 minutes. Then Im done.

Thats how Im gonna do it.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ah, the old cut and paste a bunch of stuff without realy understanding what it is your reading... I already answered what the "odds" are. Sorry but i'm not that concerened by an up to 1.7% chance. Hell my odds are much worse driving to work, and no i can't stop doing that either.Do you really think I don't "understand" what I read? And you are the one still hanging on to your "1.7%" chance......................... as your excuse for letting tobacco control you. That's cool though, I was an addict once and I "understand" exactly where you are coming from.

[TheDave]

I always say you can never get enough of other cancer–causing substances in smokeless tobacco, including N–nitrosamino acids, volatile N–nitrosamines, benzo(a)pyrene, volatile aldehydes, formaldehyde, acetaldehyde, crotonaldehyde, hydrazine, arsenic, nickel, cadmium, benzopyrene, and polonium–210 in your body.


Dude you live in Mexico, your bathing water carries all that and more... ;D

[TheDave]

Do you really think I don't "understand" what I read? And you are the one still hanging on to your "1.7%" chance......................... as your excuse for letting tobacco control you. That's cool though, I was an addict once and I "understand" exactly where you are coming from.

I Probably should of thought of something better than "You don't understand"...My bad.

But you are right i am hanging on to that 1.7%.

[baja]

Dude you live in Mexico, your bathing water carries all that and more... ;D

Actually here in san jose del cabo we are blessed with very very clean water in fact our water has les TDS PPM than Evan water. It's one of the reasons i chose this town to live over Cabo.

[Spider]

Well, after 33 hours I had a pouch. Now Im gonna go 48. Im gonna do this. Just had a minor setback, but I got this. Im not gonna do this by going straight cold turkey. I think setting goals, like, I just went 33 hours, then put a pouch in for an hour. Now I can go 48, and put one in for 45 minutes. Then I can go 72 and put one in for 30 minutes. Then 96 hours and put one in for 15 minutes. Then Im done.

Thats how Im gonna do it.

Mans got a plan ...... Hell I went through a can today .......

[baja]

Well, after 33 hours I had a pouch. Now Im gonna go 48. Im gonna do this. Just had a minor setback, but I got this. Im not gonna do this by going straight cold turkey. I think setting goals, like, I just went 33 hours, then put a pouch in for an hour. Now I can go 48, and put one in for 45 minutes. Then I can go 72 and put one in for 30 minutes. Then 96 hours and put one in for 15 minutes. Then Im done.

Thats how Im gonna do it.

I tried to warn you about this very thing, mind games. They don't work but they make you feel good. This is the power of denial. But good luck with it.

[TheDave]

Actually here in san jose del cabo we are blessed with very very clean water in fact our water has les TDS PPM than Evan water. It's one of the reasons i chose this town to live over Cabo.

Yeah thats what they tell all the tourists...;)

[spdirty]

I tried to warn you about this very thing, mind games. They don't work but they make you feel good. This is the power of denial. But good luck with it.

I'm gonna get to Saturday at 5:30 pm before I get 1 tiny little pouch for only 45 minutes. It will be huge when I do that.

Today was not good. Puttin signs up at 120th and 85 at this elementary schoold these punk ass kids honked their horn at me, I ran at em, yeled **** you at em, and flipped em off, hoping they would come back. Thats just not me. I usually ignore that shlt when it happens. The urges and the mood swings are killer. But I'm gonna kick this shlt.

[baja]

I'm gonna get to Saturday at 5:30 pm before I get 1 tiny little pouch for only 45 minutes. It will be huge when I do that.

Today was not good. Puttin signs up at 120th and 85 at this elementary schoold these punk ass kids honked their horn at me, I ran at em, yeled **** you at em, and flipped em off, hoping they would come back. Thats just not me. I usually ignore that shlt when it happens. The urges and the mood swings are killer. But I'm gonna kick this shlt.

I'm gonna tell you right now you are not going to make it because you are not done with it yet.

[spdirty]

dude its been 4 hours, 15 minutes since I took that pouch out, I feel fine. This is going a lot better than it was Wednesday at 12:15. Yeah I think this is the way to go...Ill keep u posted.

[baja]

Cool, like I said good luck...

[spdirty]

I'm gonna tell you right now you are not going to make it because you are not done with it yet.

yes I will.