Time for Broncos to pull shocker

[dragondawg]

By Mark Kiszla
The Denver Post

If Mike Shanahan has any guts, he will make a gamble in the NFL draft that shocks Broncomaniacs and causes Roger Goodell to stammer in disbelief.

Imagine Goodell stepping to the microphone to announce: "With the 12th pick in the 2008 NFL draft, the Denver Broncos select . . . running back Jonathan Stewart of Oregon?"

Say what? The Broncos have not taken a running back in the first round since 1985.

But Denver needs to make some noise.

So take a running back. Make it Stewart. He's built like a Hummer. He's a load.

Or, if your preference runs more to a Mack truck with a Ferrari gearbox, then the rock-carrier for the Broncos is Rashard Mendenhall of Illinois.

Ignore what draft geeks are telling Denver to do.

Take a running back.

While the Broncos have obvious needs at offensive tackle, linebacker, safety and in the defensive line, there would be no wisdom in making a conventional choice.

Now everybody knows the book on Shanahan is he takes unpolished backs late in the draft and turns them into 1,000-yard gems.

But I swear on the scalp of Mel Kiper Jr. that this isn't some wild, hair-brained idea.

There are whispers in NFL circles that the Broncos are seriously considering taking a running back. While half-truths and downright lies are as much a part of draft tradition as good motors and 40-yard dashes, it makes sense for Denver to pick a tailback.

On a team whose roster of Pro Bowl talent has shrunk in recent years, either Stewart or Mendenhall would immediately become the most talented runner in town.

The Broncos cannot really put all their faith and love in veteran running back Travis Henry any more than the nine mothers of his nine children do.

Although giving back contract money now has Henry working on Shana- han's terms, the 29-year-old player remains on shaky ground, if for no other reason than he has missed 19 games during the past four NFL seasons.

Anybody who saw Mendenhall break a 79-yard touchdown run against Southern California in the Rose Bowl would be tempted to stand up and salute him as the second coming of Terrell Davis, but it might have been a ruse when the Broncos brought the Illinois junior to Dove Valley for a visit.

I'm guessing Denver actually favors Stewart, despite the fact recent surgery to correct a turf toe injury will slow his development as a rookie after rushing last season for a school-record 1,722 yards at Oregon.

After their less-than-graceful shove of Matt Lepsis into retirement, the Broncos certainly have room to add an offensive tackle. Any number of beefy blockers, from Chris Williams of Vanderbilt to Jeff Otah of Pittsburgh, would be safe choices for Denver at No. 12.

But here's the question Shanahan must ask himself: If it takes at least a year for a young offensive lineman to master the dark arts employed in the Denver trenches, how would picking a big grunt help Jay Cutler emerge as an elite NFL quarterback in 2008?

The Broncos' playoff hopes, to say nothing of the coach's reputation, are in need of immediate attention.

While Shanahan might be building himself a new castle to call home in the Denver suburbs, the emperor has no clothes, not to mention only a single playoff victory since John Elway retired.

To change his team's fortune, maybe Shanahan should try something different than blaming a defensive coordinator or making a scapegoat of his quarterback.

What should an old football coach do when his genius is fading to black?

Run to daylight.

The Broncos need a playmaker to get Broncomaniacs buzzing.

Jonathan Stewart? Rashard Mendenhall?

Pick one.

Either way, the Broncos cannot lose.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_9007724

[bpc]

I love this "don't draft an offensive linemen, it won't help Cutler fast enough" sentiment by some of the writers.

Say we draft an offensive lineman... SAY it takes a year for them to get on the field and be productive.

Is that better than ignoring the problem and drafting a HB who immediately is in a HB by committee and gets SOME results? Then what, we can have the exact same need on the offensive line next season IF Cutler makes it that long? So then at the soonest, we will need to draft OLine again and Cutler won't be able to expect support until 2010? Cutler might not make it that long.

The idea of not drafting a quality offensive lineman when they are on the board because we work them slower in Denver is stupid. TAKING A HB ON SATURDAY IS STUPID because we always seem to get quality from that position and we are severely lacking in other areas, namely DT, OT, WR, S, and LB.

I like Mendenhall and Stewart. Both very nice players. DENVER WOULD BE INSANE TO PASS on some grade A offensive line talent this year.

[TheReverend]

I love this "don't draft an offensive linemen, it won't help Cutler fast enough" sentiment by some of the writers.

Say we draft an offensive lineman... SAY it takes a year for them to get on the field and be productive.

Is that better than ignoring the problem and drafting a HB who immediately is in a HB by committee and gets SOME results? Then what, we can have the exact same need on the offensive line next season IF Cutler makes it that long? So then at the soonest, we will need to draft OLine again and Cutler won't be able to expect support until 2010? Cutler might not make it that long.

The idea of not drafting a quality offensive lineman when they are on the board because we work them slower in Denver is stupid. TAKING A HB ON SATURDAY IS STUPID because we always seem to get quality from that position and we are severely lacking in other areas, namely DT, OT, WR, S, and LB.

I like Mendenhall and Stewart. Both very nice players. DENVER WOULD BE INSANE TO PASS on some grade A offensive line talent this year.

I completely agree with you but you're ignoring several possibilities.

What if Den doesn't think there is a problem?

What if Den thinks their players are already on the roster?

What if Den is in love with a 4th round tackle and think he's the perfect fit for their SYSTEM?

I'm sure OL will garner at least 2 picks in this draft... But there's no need to be closed minded to the point where Round 1, pick #12 is the end all be all for the Broncos franchise.

[The MVPlaya]

I completely agree with you but you're ignoring several possibilities.

What if Den doesn't think there is a problem?

What if Den thinks their players are already on the roster?

What if Den is in love with a 4th round tackle and think he's the perfect fit for their SYSTEM?

I'm sure OL will garner at least 2 picks in this draft... But there's no need to be closed minded to the point where Round 1, pick #12 is the end all be all for the Broncos franchise.


Exactly. :thumbsup:

[bpc]

Well... lets look at the history of what Denver thinks about its draft picks...

...
..
.

Done.

DRAFT AN OT in round 1. EVEN if other players pan out in from previous drafts, (which I doubt, namely Ryan Harris) is there a problem with having TOO much OLine depth?

Take any one of Tom Brady's games(outside of the super bowl) last year and watch it. How much time does he have to throw? I would venture to say that Jay Cutler has 1.5 second less per snap to work with on passing downs.

Don't give me any of this junk about "players already being on the roster". Erik Pears has started for TOO long. He stinks. He's a walking timebomb. Is that what you want protecting your QB? Ryan Harris couldn't even take snaps away from him last year. IMO, that doesn't bode well for the future. Neither does the certainty of Cutler remaining healthy if we continue to surround him with $hitty blockers.

Go to the Detroit tape and hit rewind 10-12 times. SD twice.

[TheReverend]

Well... lets look at the history of what Denver thinks about its draft picks...

...
..
.

Done.

DRAFT AN OT in round 1. EVEN if other players pan out in from previous drafts, (which I doubt, namely Ryan Harris) is there a problem with having TOO much OLine depth?

Take any one of Tom Brady's games(outside of the super bowl) last year and watch it. How much time does he have to throw? I would venture to say that Jay Cutler has 1.5 second less per snap to work with on passing downs.

Don't give me any of this junk about "players already being on the roster". Erik Pears has started for TOO long. He stinks. He's a walking timebomb. Is that what you want protecting your QB? Ryan Harris couldn't even take snaps away from him last year. IMO, that doesn't bode well for the future. Neither does the certainty of Cutler remaining healthy if we continue to surround him with $hitty blockers.

Go to the Detroit tape and hit rewind 10-12 times. SD twice.

Personally I think his time in the pocket had more to do with double covering Moss and Welker...

...but for sake of your argument lets go with what you say. NE doesn't have a first round tackle... in fact the only first rounder on their line is Logan Mankins and he was drafted at the VERY end of the first round.

I'm glad you're the executioner of Erik Pears career. I'm sure that attitude will take you far in the NFL personnel department. As will basing your judgement of a rookie that you've seen nothing of, off of that same Erik Pears evaluation.

Really, bpc... just stellar observations by you.

[fontaine]

Personally I think his time in the pocket had more to do with double covering Moss and Welker...

...but for sake of your argument lets go with what you say. NE doesn't have a first round tackle... in fact the only first rounder on their line is Logan Mankins and he was drafted at the VERY end of the first round.

I'm glad you're the executioner of Erik Pears career. I'm sure that attitude will take you far in the NFL personnel department. As will basing your judgement of a rookie that you've seen nothing of, off of that same Erik Pears evaluation.

Really, bpc... just stellar observations by you.

I have to agree. For every good OT in the first round there are guys like Kwame Harris, Foster or Robert Gallery. I don't mind who they pick in the first as long as they don't pull some crazy deal where they get scalped moving up to grab someone.

And Cutler isn't some Brodie Croyle. He's had it easy in the pocket compared to what he went through in Vandy and he's plenty tough to survive the usual hits a QB gets.

A great running game, the QB reading defenses and getting the ball out of the pocket in time is just as important as getting studs at the tackle position.

[TheReverend]

I have to agree. For every good OT in the first round there are guys like Kwame Harris, Foster or Robert Gallery. I don't mind who they pick in the first as long as they don't pull some crazy deal where they get scalped moving up to grab someone.

And Cutler isn't some Brodie Croyle. He's had it easy in the pocket compared to what he went through in Vandy and he's plenty tough to survive the usual hits a QB gets.

A great running game, the QB reading defenses and getting the ball out of the pocket in time is just as important as getting studs at the tackle position.

Excellent post.

I want to reitirate for the 20,000th time that I'm not opposed to a tackle at #12.

I just want the guy who's going to make the biggest impact for the football team. The guy opposing coordinators are going to have to use multiple defenders to respect. The guy who makes everyone elses job a little easier on offense AND defense. A guy like Champ. A guy like Marshall. A guy like Cutler. A guy who's impact regardless of his position encompasses the entire football team.

[socalorado]

I see the logic in taking a OT at #12 as well.
BUT i actually think this has more to do with the fact that Bowlen and Shanny just dont trust THenry anymore. Hes a half a toke from being another Chris Henry episode.

[dsmoot]

I love this "don't draft an offensive linemen, it won't help Cutler fast enough" sentiment by some of the writers.

Say we draft an offensive lineman... SAY it takes a year for them to get on the field and be productive.

Is that better than ignoring the problem and drafting a HB who immediately is in a HB by committee and gets SOME results? Then what, we can have the exact same need on the offensive line next season IF Cutler makes it that long? So then at the soonest, we will need to draft OLine again and Cutler won't be able to expect support until 2010? Cutler might not make it that long.

The idea of not drafting a quality offensive lineman when they are on the board because we work them slower in Denver is stupid. TAKING A HB ON SATURDAY IS STUPID because we always seem to get quality from that position and we are severely lacking in other areas, namely DT, OT, WR, S, and LB.

I like Mendenhall and Stewart. Both very nice players. DENVER WOULD BE INSANE TO PASS on some grade A offensive line talent this year.

This is outstanding logic. Who is to say we can't get our stud RB NEXT YEAR. A running back will more quickly adapt to a starting role. Even if the logic is correct about the development time of an OL, a year from now will make him ready for prime time. Probably even quicker for a pick taken at #12 overall. We do have running backs that can get us through this year. If Henry can stay healthy (and out of trouble), we could expect to see more of the performance we saw the first four games of last year. I have not given up on Selvin Young to having a significant role on this team. Young and Henry together can be a very productive duo. I would rather put a very good young OL prospect in front of them NOW. Please no comments about George Foster.

[2KBack]

Well... lets look at the history of what Denver thinks about its draft picks...

...
..
.

Done.

DRAFT AN OT in round 1. EVEN if other players pan out in from previous drafts, (which I doubt, namely Ryan Harris) is there a problem with having TOO much OLine depth?

Take any one of Tom Brady's games(outside of the super bowl) last year and watch it. How much time does he have to throw? I would venture to say that Jay Cutler has 1.5 second less per snap to work with on passing downs.

Don't give me any of this junk about "players already being on the roster". Erik Pears has started for TOO long. He stinks. He's a walking timebomb. Is that what you want protecting your QB? Ryan Harris couldn't even take snaps away from him last year. IMO, that doesn't bode well for the future. Neither does the certainty of Cutler remaining healthy if we continue to surround him with $hitty blockers.

Go to the Detroit tape and hit rewind 10-12 times. SD twice.

Meh, the patriots only have one 1st round pick on their o-line, and he was the 32nd pick.

[ant1999e]

The Broncos cannot really put all their faith and love in veteran running back Travis Henry any more than the nine mothers of his nine children do.
LOL

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

[QUOTE=fontaine;1953716]I have to agree. For every good OT in the first round there are guys like Kwame Harris, Foster or Robert Gallery. IQUOTE]

Despite, those names that were cherry picked, OL has the lowest first round bust factor of all positions.

[Tombstone RJ]

Fact is, the only thing that can make Cutler a better QB right away, is a home run threat at RB. If an opposing defense has to game plan around a dominant RB, then guess what people, Cutler's passing game just got a whole lot easier.

[Beantown Bronco]

Despite, those names that were cherry picked, OL has the lowest first round bust factor of all positions.

Tough call. I'd put running back first, LB second, and OLine third at least as of the last 10 years or so.....though measuring the "bust quotient" by position is hardly an exact science.

[Crushaholic]

Successful running starts with successful blocking. We HAVE fast guys running the ball. We just need people to open the holes. If we take a running back in the first round, we did not help our team one bit.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Every year the same tired argument is trotted out by people who think we're going to be a Superbowl contender. It goes like this; don't draft a lineman because X will make an immediate impact and an offensive lineman won't. Watch and see...if we do take a runner, and Cutler's getting burried under a blitzkrieg pass rush, NEXT year we'll hear the same story...dont' take a lineman...it takes to long for them to develop.

People who really know the NFL know you win in the trenches. Once upon a time when Denver ran the only stretch zone blocking scheme in the league they had carte blanche on all the talented but undersized blockers perfect for that system who were sitting there in the 6th round or even after the draft. Now a half dozen teams are fishing those same waters and our recent lack of success in finding new talent in the O-line has finally caught up to us. Chris Kuper is the only guy we currently have who is 1) young enough to be part of the long term solution and 2) appears to have real NFL talent. Look at this line; at left OT we have ZERO starting experience...a sure fire recipe for major problems. At left guard we have probably the NFL's smallest starting guard, one coming off a serious concussion problem that may or may not happen again, a guy who consistently gets rag dolled by bigger opponents but for some reason is seen as a pro bowler by the orange faithful who can only see the past successes of the zone blocking system and fail to understand that the opposition has figured out how to handle Denver's running game. Neither player on the left side no matter who starts at tackle is going to be a quality pass protector. At center we have a guy who is about ready to draw social security. Our best option when he retires or gets cut is our undersized starting guard who struggles against bigger stronger opponents...not really what you want to combat San Diego's 350 pound Jamal Williams. At right guard we have a free agent castoff who is OK but nothing to write home about. At right tackle our UDFA Pears is making nobody forget the horrendous George Foster.

This line is light years removed from the Superbowl winning O-line that led Terrel Davis and Elway into dominance and struck fear in the hearts of opposing defensive coordinators. Our sack numbers are artificially inflated by the mobility of Cutler and a short WCO passing game when the real value in Cutler is his rocket launcher arm that should be threatening teams deep 8 times a game, something we can't do without improved pass protection.

Drafting a runner will take some pressure off Cutler in the ground game, but at the end of the day it's got to be about improving the chances that this kid who has superstar stamped on him remains healthy and upright. I remember to well the Reeves era offenses that were all about Elway's ability to make something happen in spite of inadequate protection and poor offensive weapons. Now it seems we're repeating the mistakes of the past. Why not build a fortress in front of Cutler and utilize what this kid brings to the table for years to come with a solid foundation instead of another yearly bandaid fix that holds out the illusion of a playoff run when we all down deep know this team is in rebuilding mode and is not ready to win now anyway? The next two drafts ought to be about rebuilding the offensive and defensive lines and pretty much nothing else.

[no-pseudo-fan]

Successful running starts with successful blocking. We HAVE fast guys running the ball. We just need people to open the holes. If we take a running back in the first round, we did not help our team one bit.

I agree and disagree.

I agree that blocking is the key to running the ball, but I disagree that we didn't open holes last year. Selvin ran thru some huge holes last year, as did Henry(when he was healthy).

Our problem is on short yardage and goalline situations. The defense knew what was coming and our smaller lineman have issues sometimes with that. Now, if we can get a REAL FB in the mix then that should help in those situations. So, a Stewart/Schmidt draft would bring the power back to our running game.

[ohiobronco2]

Time for the Broncos to be smart and fortify the lines. There are plenty of backs that look like Hall of Famers behind great lines. Jamal Lewis who by all accounts is on the downside of his career looked pretty solid last year behind Clevelands great line. Minnesota made Chester Taylor look amazing. I think Mendenhall and Stewart are great runningbacks, but as we all know, runningbacks are prone to injury perhaps more than any other position. I'd rather have an anchor on our O line for the next 10 or so years.

[no-pseudo-fan]

Every year the same tired argument is trotted out by people who think we're going to be a Superbowl contender. It goes like this; don't draft a lineman because X will make an immediate impact and an offensive lineman won't. Watch and see...if we do take a runner, and Cutler's getting burried under a blitzkrieg pass rush, NEXT year we'll hear the same story...dont' take a lineman...it takes to long for them to develop.

People who really know the NFL know you win in the trenches. Once upon a time when Denver ran the only stretch zone blocking scheme in the league they had carte blanche on all the talented but undersized blockers perfect for that system who were sitting there in the 6th round or even after the draft. Now a half dozen teams are fishing those same waters and our recent lack of success in finding new talent in the O-line has finally caught up to us. Chris Kuper is the only guy we currently have who is 1) young enough to be part of the long term solution and 2) appears to have real NFL talent. Look at this line; at left OT we have ZERO starting experience...a sure fire recipe for major problems. At left guard we have probably the NFL's smallest starting guard, one coming off a serious concussion problem that may or may not happen again, a guy who consistently gets rag dolled by bigger opponents but for some reason is seen as a pro bowler by the orange faithful who can only see the past successes of the zone blocking system and fail to understand that the opposition has figured out how to handle Denver's running game. Neither player on the left side no matter who starts at tackle is going to be a quality pass protector. At center we have a guy who is about ready to draw social security. Our best option when he retires or gets cut is our undersized starting guard who struggles against bigger stronger opponents...not really what you want to combat San Diego's 350 pound Jamal Williams. At right guard we have a free agent castoff who is OK but nothing to write home about. At right tackle our UDFA Pears is making nobody forget the horrendous George Foster.

This line is light years removed from the Superbowl winning O-line that led Terrel Davis and Elway into dominance and struck fear in the hearts of opposing defensive coordinators. Our sack numbers are artificially inflated by the mobility of Cutler and a short WCO passing game when the real value in Cutler is his rocket launcher arm that should be threatening teams deep 8 times a game, something we can't do without improved pass protection.

Drafting a runner will take some pressure off Cutler in the ground game, but at the end of the day it's got to be about improving the chances that this kid who has superstar stamped on him remains healthy and upright. I remember to well the Reeves era offenses that were all about Elway's ability to make something happen in spite of inadequate protection and poor offensive weapons. Now it seems we're repeating the mistakes of the past. Why not build a fortress in front of Cutler and utilize what this kid brings to the table for years to come with a solid foundation instead of another yearly bandaid fix that holds out the illusion of a playoff run when we all down deep know this team is in rebuilding mode and is not ready to win now anyway? The next two drafts ought to be about rebuilding the offensive and defensive lines and pretty much nothing else.

I agree. There are teams that have stolen our plans and are trying to get the guys that we are. Those guys are now 3rd and 4th round guys now, instead of 5th 6th and 7th round guys. I want what we all want, a running game that teams fear. The problem is, we run the ball differently now-a-days. These converted FB are not working. We need to go back to a true FB system, and a runner that can both punish the defense and threaten to take it the distance. We don't have those guys on the team right now.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I agree and disagree.

I agree that blocking is the key to running the ball, but I disagree that we didn't open holes last year. Selvin ran thru some huge holes last year, as did Henry(when he was healthy).

Our problem is on short yardage and goalline situations. The defense knew what was coming and our smaller lineman have issues sometimes with that. Now, if we can get a REAL FB in the mix then that should help in those situations. So, a Stewart/Schmidt draft would bring the power back to our running game.
Sometimes? Our smallish O-line has CONSTANT problems with short yardage situations. It's time to admit something we'd rather not; the rest of the NFL has caught up with the stretch zone system and it's alternative philosophy. When teams saw this system once every three years or even twice a year in our division it made sense because they weren't ready for it. When we were the only team fishing this niche market talent pool it made sense because we could cherry pick talent that fit the sytem late in the draft or even after the draft. Those two things are no longer true. Half a dozen teams run this system now. The guru who started it is gone and not coming back here. We're lucky now to find one guy late in the draft who is truly gifted for this system and meanwhile it's primary weakness, pass blocking against bull rushers and moving the ball on the ground inside the red zone are hampering our efforts to both use our main weapon effectively (Cutler's arm) and keeping us predictable inside the opponents 20 yard line. It's time to junk this system and start building with some serious bruisers in the offensive line. Sure a great FB and a stud runner would help...but they won't solve the larger issues I'm talking about. Unfortunately, football coaches rarely change what they've won with in the past...even the great ones. I don't see us being willing to do this so we're going to continue to have the same problems year after year for the forseable future. I'd love to think we see Chris Willliams in here on draft day but it's more likely to be Keith Rivers IMO.

[Atlas]

I love this "don't draft an offensive linemen, it won't help Cutler fast enough" sentiment by some of the writers.

Say we draft an offensive lineman... SAY it takes a year for them to get on the field and be productive.

Is that better than ignoring the problem and drafting a HB who immediately is in a HB by committee and gets SOME results? Then what, we can have the exact same need on the offensive line next season IF Cutler makes it that long? So then at the soonest, we will need to draft OLine again and Cutler won't be able to expect support until 2010? Cutler might not make it that long.

The idea of not drafting a quality offensive lineman when they are on the board because we work them slower in Denver is stupid. TAKING A HB ON SATURDAY IS STUPID because we always seem to get quality from that position and we are severely lacking in other areas, namely DT, OT, WR, S, and LB.

I like Mendenhall and Stewart. Both very nice players. DENVER WOULD BE INSANE TO PASS on some grade A offensive line talent this year.

I wouldn't mind at all if Denver drafts Stewart. He will be the best player available. Isn't that a good theory? This is a very deep draft at OT. Denver has lots of late round picks if they want to move up in the third round to snagan OT they can.

I want good value at 12. Whether that is an OT or RB I would be happy. They can get a great DT in the 2nd round and pick up an OT later. With Nalen and Hamilton coming back, with Pears, Kupper, and Harris all having another year under their belts I don't see the desperation for an OT like some here. Denver needs to get the best player available. Whether that is Ellis, Stewart or Clady..... It would all be good.

[Kaylore]

I love this "don't draft an offensive linemen, it won't help Cutler fast enough" sentiment by some of the writers.

Say we draft an offensive lineman... SAY it takes a year for them to get on the field and be productive.

Is that better than ignoring the problem and drafting a HB who immediately is in a HB by committee and gets SOME results? Then what, we can have the exact same need on the offensive line next season IF Cutler makes it that long? So then at the soonest, we will need to draft OLine again and Cutler won't be able to expect support until 2010? Cutler might not make it that long.

The idea of not drafting a quality offensive lineman when they are on the board because we work them slower in Denver is stupid. TAKING A HB ON SATURDAY IS STUPID because we always seem to get quality from that position and we are severely lacking in other areas, namely DT, OT, WR, S, and LB.

I like Mendenhall and Stewart. Both very nice players. DENVER WOULD BE INSANE TO PASS on some grade A offensive line talent this year.

I haven't seen too many people say they want the offensive line ignored. I tend to believe they will address the O-line, but by taking picks in later rounds in the draft like they always do with linemen.

[Man-Goblin]

I'm in the O-line camp for many reasons, but most of all because I think the Broncos have a rare opportunity to fill a need for the next 10 years. Also, don't forget, if the Broncos take an RB they're going to have to cut a pretty darn good one.

[bronco militia]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PS/7655~Shocker-Posters.jpg

[Kaylore]

Despite, those names that were cherry picked, OL has the lowest first round bust factor of all positions.

I agree. A lot of hall of fame linemen were first round picks too. However I think there are pro-bowl offensive linemen in this draft on the second day. I don't believe that if we don't use a first on an offensive lineman that we'll be screwed. The sentiment around these parts suggests otherwise.

[Gcver2ver3]

. It's time to admit something we'd rather not; the rest of the NFL has caught up with the stretch zone system and it's alternative philosophy.


EXACTLY RIGHT....

opposing teams have adapted and perhaps it's time we make some adjustments as well...esp in the redzone...

With that said can you please explain why you think we'll select Keith Rivers?...

He's an outside LB...DJ is our WILL and he's not moving back to MIKE...or are you implying that he will move back?

Plus, in all likelyhood barring an unforseen trade Rivers won't make past the 10th pick...

so why would you think we'd get Rivers?

[BusMan]

I've finally gotten to the point where the only way I'll be happy if we don't draft an OT at #12 is if we move up and snag Ellis.

[no-pseudo-fan]

Sometimes? Our smallish O-line has CONSTANT problems with short yardage situations. It's time to admit something we'd rather not; the rest of the NFL has caught up with the stretch zone system and it's alternative philosophy. When teams saw this system once every three years or even twice a year in our division it made sense because they weren't ready for it. When we were the only team fishing this niche market talent pool it made sense because we could cherry pick talent that fit the sytem late in the draft or even after the draft. Those two things are no longer true. Half a dozen teams run this system now. The guru who started it is gone and not coming back here. We're lucky now to find one guy late in the draft who is truly gifted for this system and meanwhile it's primary weakness, pass blocking against bull rushers and moving the ball on the ground inside the red zone are hampering our efforts to both use our main weapon effectively (Cutler's arm) and keeping us predictable inside the opponents 20 yard line. It's time to junk this system and start building with some serious bruisers in the offensive line. Sure a great FB and a stud runner would help...but they won't solve the larger issues I'm talking about. Unfortunately, football coaches rarely change what they've won with in the past...even the great ones. I don't see us being willing to do this so we're going to continue to have the same problems year after year for the forseable future. I'd love to think we see Chris Willliams in here on draft day but it's more likely to be Keith Rivers IMO.

So we trash the system that works so well that everyone is jumping on board? I don't see that happening. If we trash it, we are looking at a 3 to 4 year rebuilding process. Drafting talented bruisers is as an inexact science as any other player. I'm with you when it comes to the line. I think that we should bring in more players. Can't fight the reality that we struggle against physical defenses, as we did in our Super Bowl years. I think their are 2 or 3 OL worth that pick at #12. Jake Long, Brandon Albert, Chris Willams. After that I say we look at guys in the 2nd or 4th.

Keith Rivers is not going to help or fill a need.

[alkemical]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/Shocker_example.jpg

[footstepsfrom#27]

So we trash the system that works so well that everyone is jumping on board? I don't see that happening. If we trash it, we are looking at a 3 to 4 year rebuilding process. Drafting talented bruisers is as an inexact science as any other player.
We could fix this offensive line in two drafts. It's called staying ahead of the curve. It's vital to success everywhere, in business as well as sports. You have to stay ahead of what the competition is doing. Defensive linemen are now not only bigger but much more mobile and quicker than ever. The teams jumping on board the stretch zone system are essentialy followers not leaders...look who they are; Jokeland, Atlanta, Green Bay...I think Carolina fits in there as well...who else...Washington too? How many superbowls have these teams won in the recent past? Except for Green Bay, which is now under different coaching...none. The simple fact is...the system no longer does what it's supposed to do and now that we no longer have the only one of a kind running game built around it, the stretch zone's strongest element, difficulty for opposing teams to prepare for it...is now gone.

If we don't draft a large, talented O-line that can blow people off the ball, what is your solution for fixing the serious short yardage rushing problem we have inside the red zone?
I'm with you when it comes to the line. I think that we should bring in more players. Can't fight the reality that we struggle against physical defenses, as we did in our Super Bowl years. I think their are 2 or 3 OL worth that pick at #12. Jake Long, Brandon Albert, Chris Willams. After that I say we look at guys in the 2nd or 4th.

Keith Rivers is not going to help or fill a need.
Shanahan has shown a reluctance to ascribe major importance to drafting high picks in either line, choosing instead to fill the trenches with late round draftees and over the hill free agents while going for skill positions or maybe linebacker and secondary help on defense with first round talent. Rivers is a guy I'd hate to see here since I think he's just Ian Gold from a better college program, but it won't surprise me if he's the guy we take. I'd rather have Mayo, and we could get him if we moved our 2nd plus something else to get into the last 3rd of the 1st round after taking an offensive tackle like Williams at #12. I'm not even sure Williams will make it to us though...there's a premium on true left tackle prospects. Jake Long is obviously long gone...Albert? I don't see him worth the 12th spot at all but if we traded down to 20 I'd say he'd be a good pick. I wouldn't even mind getting a sledge hammer RT at #12 if Williams is gone...the kid from Pitt is huge and nasty. He'd be a good start.

[bronco militia]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/Shocker_example.jpg


bwahahha...see post #25

[no-pseudo-fan]

We could fix this offensive line in two drafts. It's called staying ahead of the curve. It's vital to success everywhere, in business as well as sports. You have to stay ahead of what the competition is doing. Defensive linemen are now not only bigger but much more mobile and quicker than ever. The teams jumping on board the stretch zone system are essentialy followers not leaders...look who they are; Jokeland, Atlanta, Green Bay...I think Carolina fits in there as well...who else...Washington too? How many superbowls have these teams won in the recent past? Except for Green Bay, which is now under different coaching...none. The simple fact is...the system no longer does what it's supposed to do and now that we no longer have the only one of a kind running game built around it, the stretch zone's strongest element, difficulty for opposing teams to prepare for it...is now gone.

If we don't draft a large, talented O-line that can blow people off the ball, what is your solution for fixing the serious short yardage rushing problem we have inside the red zone?

Shanahan has shown a reluctance to ascribe major importance to drafting high picks in either line, choosing instead to fill the trenches with late round draftees and over the hill free agents while going for skill positions or maybe linebacker and secondary help on defense with first round talent. Rivers is a guy I'd hate to see here since I think he's just Ian Gold from a better college program, but it won't surprise me if he's the guy we take. I'd rather have Mayo, and we could get him if we moved our 2nd plus something else to get into the last 3rd of the 1st round after taking an offensive tackle like Williams at #12. I'm not even sure Williams will make it to us though...there's a premium on true left tackle prospects. Jake Long is obviously long gone...Albert? I don't see him worth the 12th spot at all but if we traded down to 20 I'd say he'd be a good pick. I wouldn't even mind getting a sledge hammer RT at #12 if Williams is gone...the kid from Pitt is huge and nasty. He'd be a good start.

2 drafts would be 3 years, because it would take at least 1 year of seasoning before the 2nd year draft guys were ready, plus about a year to gel.

I do not see value at linebacker in the first. There is a huge market for Albert right now, he could go as early as 5. I like Willams, Clady I am luke warm about.

I am campaigns for a Stewart/ Schimdt draft. Stewart in the 1st and Schmidt in the 4th. Along with OL/DL/LB/WR(KR) in the 2nd, 4ht, and 5th. 6th and 7th. Tommy Blake, Punter, Kicker.

[no-pseudo-fan]

bwahahha...see post #25

AKA "The Bandit"

[footstepsfrom#27]

2 drafts would be 3 years, because it would take at least 1 year of seasoning before the 2nd year draft guys were ready, plus about a year to gel.
Then delaying further will only push the time frame back even farther. We need 3 possibly 4 linemen through the draft. The only position that seems settled for the future is Kuper's and he'd fit better at guard. That can be done in two drafts, plus we could fill in maybe one spot with a trade or free agency signing provided the guy's a true stud and not just another retread.
I do not see value at linebacker in the first. There is a huge market for Albert right now, he could go as early as 5. I like Willams, Clady I am luke warm about.
When's the last time a guard went #5? I'd be shocked if Albert went that high. I bet he's still there at 18 or 20. Clady will go first but I think Williams will be a more consistent player. Besides, I'm more comfortable taking a guy who faced SEC competition and had the highest grade in the conference to a guy who played at Boise State.[/QUOTE]

[footstepsfrom#27]

EXACTLY RIGHT....

opposing teams have adapted and perhaps it's time we make some adjustments as well...esp in the redzone...

With that said can you please explain why you think we'll select Keith Rivers?...

He's an outside LB...DJ is our WILL and he's not moving back to MIKE...or are you implying that he will move back?

Plus, in all likelyhood barring an unforseen trade Rivers won't make past the 10th pick...

so why would you think we'd get Rivers?
Because Mike Shanahan is making this pick. Shanahan loves playmakers on defense in his back 7 and Rivers is a playmaker. He also likes major college players. I know they say DJ is moving back to the weak side but you can use the failed Bates experiment to reference whether you think Shanny has a long range philosophy he's committed to or not. It's obvious he won't take a corner and there's no safety at #12 he'd consider. Ellis will be gone and he's shown a reluctance to take either offensive linemen or runners in the first round. TE is settled and no receiver fits there either...so do the math; Rivers is a guy he'd like to have and if he could convince himself that DJ is really a strong side backer OR if he thinks he'll leave Denver in the near future then he'd probably take him. I hope I'm wrong but after nearly every Shanahan draft except the Cutler one this is what we're mostly doing on this board after the first round: :kiddingme :kiddingme :kiddingme

[kamakazi_kal]

I completely agree with you but you're ignoring several possibilities.

What if Den doesn't think there is a problem?

What if Den thinks their players are already on the roster?

What if Den is in love with a 4th round tackle and think he's the perfect fit for their SYSTEM?

I'm sure OL will garner at least 2 picks in this draft... But there's no need to be closed minded to the point where Round 1, pick #12 is the end all be all for the Broncos franchise.

WOOooOOT!!!!

[Kaylore]

Because Mike Shanahan is making this pick. Shanahan loves playmakers on defense in his back 7 and Rivers is a playmaker.

LOL What plays does he make? Sacks? Nope. Tackles for a loss? How about having the worst margin of tackles to tackles for a loss for where he's supposed to be taken? Ints? None. Forced fumbles? One. The guy is an athlete first and last. He is not a football player and he certainly isn't a playmaker.

Playmaker, my eye. ROFL!

[alkemical]

bwahahha...see post #25

d'oh! lol i didn't see it, i just dropped one in regardless.

[Gcver2ver3]

Because Mike Shanahan is making this pick. Shanahan loves playmakers on defense in his back 7 and Rivers is a playmaker. He also likes major college players. I know they say DJ is moving back to the weak side but you can use the failed Bates experiment to reference whether you think Shanny has a long range philosophy he's committed to or not. It's obvious he won't take a corner and there's no safety at #12 he'd consider. Ellis will be gone and he's shown a reluctance to take either offensive linemen or runners in the first round. TE is settled and no receiver fits there either...so do the math; Rivers is a guy he'd like to have and if he could convince himself that DJ is really a strong side backer OR if he thinks he'll leave Denver in the near future then he'd probably take him. I hope I'm wrong but after nearly every Shanahan draft except the Cutler one this is what we're mostly doing on this board after the first round: :kiddingme :kiddingme :kiddingme

okay...

so you do think that he'll move DJ back the the middle...

personally i can't see that happening...we have jerked DJ too much as it is and then we publicly make it known he's moving back to his original (and best) position just to select Rivers and move him back again? I can't see us doing that to DJ, not to mention DJ having to watch some rookie come in and play the position that's been rightfully his from start...

That plus I still don't think we can overlook the fact that chances are Rivers won't be available at #12 to begin with...

That's my take, and if I had to choose who I think Shanny takes I believe it will be Jonothan Stewart...my preference is Clady or Williams...

Thanks for explaining your viewpoint and who knows you may be right...Rivers is a great value pick at #12...

but i really hope you aren't though, Rivers is not who i wanna see us pick in the 1st round...

[no-pseudo-fan]

Then delaying further will only push the time frame back even farther. We need 3 possibly 4 linemen through the draft. The only position that seems settled for the future is Kuper's and he'd fit better at guard. That can be done in two drafts, plus we could fill in maybe one spot with a trade or free agency signing provided the guy's a true stud and not just another retread.

When's the last time a guard went #5? I'd be shocked if Albert went that high. I bet he's still there at 18 or 20. Clady will go first but I think Williams will be a more consistent player. Besides, I'm more comfortable taking a guy who faced SEC competition and had the highest grade in the conference to a guy who played at Boise State.[/QUOTE]

I never said delay. Your plan assumes that we hit on every pick at line, and we both know that is unrealistic. I want to domainate upfront as much as you do. I'm old school, I want to manhandle opponents. We can not be single-minded in our approach, we need to draft to be a better team. Elite players make elite teams.

Albert plays both OG and OT, at best he is a franchise LT, at worst he is Hutchinson(win/win if you ask me). I like Willams too. He is battle tested, Clady has more of a chance to flop. We just need to be smart about things, and we should be alright.

[no-pseudo-fan]

LOL What plays does he make? Sacks? Nope. Tackles for a loss? How about having the worst margin of tackles to tackles for a loss for where he's supposed to be taken? Ints? None. Forced fumbles? One. The guy is an athlete first and last. He is not a football player and he certainly isn't a playmaker.

Playmaker, my eye. ROFL!

Give me Lofton anyday. We need FOOTBALL players!!

[footstepsfrom#27]

LOL What plays does he make? Sacks? Nope. Tackles for a loss? How about having the worst margin of tackles to tackles for a loss for where he's supposed to be taken? Ints? None. Forced fumbles? One. The guy is an athlete first and last. He is not a football player and he certainly isn't a playmaker.

Playmaker, my eye. ROFL!
You're describing Ian Gold. He's fast...that's what Shanny likes. Personally I don't like the guy and will puke if we take him with that 12th pick. I think he's way overated and NFL scouts consider him a playmaker who didn't shine stat wise on a talented USC defense but I'd much rather have the productive AND fast Jerod Mayo who played in a tougher conference and he's 20plus pounds bigger and can play MLB in the NFL.

[Beantown Bronco]

Albert plays both OG and OT, at best he is a franchise LT, at worst he is Hutchinson.

If only that were true.

[footstepsfrom#27]

okay...

so you do think that he'll move DJ back the the middle...

personally i can't see that happening...we have jerked DJ too much as it is and then we publicly make it known he's moving back to his original (and best) position just to select Rivers and move him back again? I can't see us doing that to DJ, not to mention DJ having to watch some rookie come in and play the position that's been rightfully his from start...

That plus I still don't think we can overlook the fact that chances are Rivers won't be available at #12 to begin with...

That's my take, and if I had to choose who I think Shanny takes I believe it will be Jonothan Stewart...my preference is Clady or Williams...

Thanks for explaining your viewpoint and who knows you may be right...Rivers is a great value pick at #12...

but i really hope you aren't though, Rivers is not who i wanna see us pick in the 1st round...
I didn't say any of it made sense...this is Shanahan we're talking about here. Trust me...I hope I'm wrong. But I have a bad feeling that Rivers is the guy. Have we heard even a whisper about him coming out of Dove Valley? No. We're hearing Jonathan Stewart, Mendenhall, Williams...this alone is cause for suspicion that Rivers might be the guy. I hope I'm wrong.

[no-pseudo-fan]

If only that were true.

Who says it's not?

I wish I had a crystal ball, but I( and many others) believe this guy can be special. He is the same size as clady, and he is MEAN(a trait that I admire).

[Gcver2ver3]

I didn't say any of it made sense...this is Shanahan we're talking about here. Trust me...I hope I'm wrong. But I have a bad feeling that Rivers is the guy. Have we heard even a whisper about him coming out of Dove Valley? No. We're hearing Jonathan Stewart, Mendenhall, Williams...this alone is cause for suspicion that Rivers might be the guy. I hope I'm wrong.

well look on the bright side...

all last season we heard that Jarvis Moss was certainly on our radar and we wound up drafting him...

so the most recent history tells us that it will be one of the above you mentioned versus Rivers...

at least i hope...

[footstepsfrom#27]

I never said delay. Your plan assumes that we hit on every pick at line, and we both know that is unrealistic. I want to domainate upfront as much as you do. I'm old school, I want to manhandle opponents. We can not be single-minded in our approach, we need to draft to be a better team. Elite players make elite teams.[/quote]
I don't think it's unrealistic. Draft O-line in the first two rounds for the next two drafts and you have 4 highly touted guys to plug in there along with Kuper. Even if you miss on one you're 80% there.
Albert plays both OG and OT, at best he is a franchise LT, at worst he is Hutchinson(win/win if you ask me). I like Willams too. He is battle tested, Clady has more of a chance to flop. We just need to be smart about things, and we should be alright.
I know some teams see him as a tackle but I think he's a guard. Usually if you're really a true left tackle that's the only thing the NFL is going to consider you for becuase they're so hard to find. He's good but I like Williams better. I'd be OK with Albert if we trade down though.

[footstepsfrom#27]

well look on the bright side...

all last season we heard that Jarvis Moss was certainly on our radar and we wound up drafting him...

so the most recent history tells us that it will be one of the above you mentioned versus Rivers...

at least i hope...
I think we only heard that right before the draft. I recall most of this board was shocked we moved up for him. But you bring up a goood point...Moss fits the Shanny profile...speed guy perceived as a playmaker on defense and he's undersized. Remind you of Rivers in that regard? Shanny like Gold so much he resigned him and over paid him after he already left once for Tampa so why would he not try to find the next Ian Gold? He moved DJ once to make room for Gold...why wouldn't he move him to make way for Gold II?

Please let me be wrong...

[Gcver2ver3]

I think we only heard that right before the draft. I recall most of this board was shocked we moved up for him. But you bring up a goood point...Moss fits the Shanny profile...speed guy perceived as a playmaker on defense and he's undersized. Remind you of Rivers in that regard? Shanny like Gold so much he resigned him and over paid him after he already left once for Tampa so why would he not try to find the next Ian Gold? He moved DJ once to make room for Gold...why wouldn't he move him to make way for Gold II?

Please let me be wrong...

yes....please!

[Ziggy]

So we trash the system that works so well that everyone is jumping on board? I don't see that happening. If we trash it, we are looking at a 3 to 4 year rebuilding process. Drafting talented bruisers is as an inexact science as any other player. I'm with you when it comes to the line. I think that we should bring in more players. Can't fight the reality that we struggle against physical defenses, as we did in our Super Bowl years. I think their are 2 or 3 OL worth that pick at #12. Jake Long, Brandon Albert, Chris Willams. After that I say we look at guys in the 2nd or 4th.

Keith Rivers is not going to help or fill a need.

First of all, it's really NOT working well. The Broncos may have been 11th in offense last year, but who cares? They were 21st in scoring. Cutler needs a pocket to pass out of. We finally have a decent pocket passer again and we can't protect him because our lineman get blown off the ball in obvious passing downs. It's time to bring in some beef. Shanahan started it last year when he brought in Montrae Holland. You can still have a zone blocking scheme with 310-320 pound lineman. It's hard to find big guys that are also mobile. Holland is that type of guy, and guys like Williams and Alberts can be also. We can keep the scheme, and change the players. The transition will take a couple of years and some high draft investments, but would be worth it.

[orange crusher]

I do think that Denver is going to shock everyone, but I don't think it will be by taking Stewart. Everything I've seen so far indicates one of the tackles or running backs, that they like Balmer, that they are looking to trade down, etc. My hunch is that they will move up to either Baltimore's or NE's spot to get Sedrick Ellis. I know there are a lot of holes to fill and we could use every one of our picks, if not more, but that is my hunch.

[Requiem]

If we draft Stewart I'm going to riot like the Canadiens fans did last night. Riot in a good way. YES.

[socalorado]

Man, there are going to be some seriously pissed off folks here when Shenanigans takes Stewart with the #12 pick.

[DBroncos4life]

SD built around LT not the OLine

[Gcver2ver3]

I do think that Denver is going to shock everyone, but I don't think it will be by taking Stewart. Everything I've seen so far indicates one of the tackles or running backs, that they like Balmer, that they are looking to trade down, etc. My hunch is that they will move up to either Baltimore's or NE's spot to get Sedrick Ellis. I know there are a lot of holes to fill and we could use every one of our picks, if not more, but that is my hunch.

how do we pull that off?

we don't have a 2nd rounder and i don't think we can afford to give up our 3rd?

Baltimore does have cornerback need but i don't think foxworth alone can move us up...

[Beantown Bronco]

SD built around LT not the OLine

And they have the hardware (no Lombardi trophies) to prove it.

[Beantown Bronco]

I don't think it's unrealistic. Draft O-line in the first two rounds for the next two drafts and you have 4 highly touted guys to plug in there along with Kuper. Even if you miss on one you're 80% there.

Too much money to invest in the OLine.....and they'd all come up for contract basically at the same time.

Not to mention that would be two more years of essentially ignoring the interior DLine.

[DBroncos4life]

And they have the hardware (no Lombardi trophies) to prove it.

I would say they have been a tad better then us over the past few seasons. Trophy or not they are amoung one of the better teams in the NFL right now. Personally I think if we add a LT type back things will open up for Cutler.

[alkemical]

SD's OL isn't shabby at all.....

[theAPAOps5]

how do we pull that off?

we don't have a 2nd rounder and i don't think we can afford to give up our 3rd?

Baltimore does have cornerback need but i don't think foxworth alone can move us up...

What are you talking about? Denver has the 42nd pick in the 2nd round. They don't have a third rounder. They have 2 fourths, 2 fifths, and 2 sevenths.

[orinjkrush]

I do think that Denver is going to shock everyone, but I don't think it will be by taking Stewart. Everything I've seen so far indicates one of the tackles or running backs, that they like Balmer, that they are looking to trade down, etc. My hunch is that they will move up to either Baltimore's or NE's spot to get Sedrick Ellis. I know there are a lot of holes to fill and we could use every one of our picks, if not more, but that is my hunch.

Ellis would be a great surprise move. get the DL we need (watch last year's games to remind yourself of what was missing) and get somebody who might actually start sooner rather than later. and a top flight DL amplifies the effectiveness of the entire LB and DB corps...i'd love it.!Booya!

[Broncoman13]

You know, I'm not sure we can go wrong here. Clady, Williams, Otah, Cherillus, Albert, Mendenhall, Stewart, possibly even McFadden, though he would scare me... all are good picks and have a very good chance of being great players in the NFL.

The first round class at OT is special this year. Long, Clady, and Williams all have pro-bowl potential. Otah and Gosder have RT and LT potential. Just as we should have grabbed one of the stud safeties last year, I think we should grab one of the stud OTs this year. While I agree that a first round prospect doesn't mean instant success. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't take one of the most important positions when given the opportunity.

It would be very tempting to take either Mendenhall or Stewart. My pref would be Stewart b/c he's a brick and can also earn some money returning kicks this year while Henry and Young carry the load. Stewart could come in and get 10 or so carries per game, but I'm not sure he's the best fit for our system. That would be either McFadden or Mendenhall, but neither offer the size/speed and returning ability of Stewart.

This is what pushes me over the hump on this thought process. We like the RBs in this class b/c they are big boys with good speed. But I have to ask, can we not get the same type of impact from a guy like Matt Forte, Tash Choice, Jamaal Charles, Eric Johnson, or my personal favorite Kevin Smith in the 2nd, *3rd, or 4th rounds? I personally think Kevin Smith is going to be a great RB in the NFL. He can run, he has good speed, and he caught the ball quite well. I think Johnson is going to be a Reggie Bush (minus the wiggle) type of player. His speed is incredible but more than that, this guy has Slot Receiver potential. Imagine a 3rd down RB that splits wide to empty the backfield (not that we'd ever do that...LOL!) and isn't not only a good receiver, but a huge mismatch b/c of his speed, routes and hands. I know that Shanny will fall in love with his speed. I'm also thinking Shanny will like his receiving ability. I realize that most want to get into the 3rd round, but I'd be willing to move up a bit in the 2nd round or even back into the 1st round to get a guy like Johnson.

Also remember there was talk about coming away with two of the "big three" in last year's draft. Harrell, Timmons, and Moss were our big three. We actually planned on moving back into the first last year for these guys. If Shanny really likes Stewart or Mendenhall, don't be suprised to see a move back into the first. Shanny has to win now. He WILL mortgage next year's draft to get $$$ players now. RB is weak in the 09 draft. I think we'll come away with both a RB and a OT in this draft. OT 1A and RB 1B!

[Drek]

I think we only heard that right before the draft. I recall most of this board was shocked we moved up for him. But you bring up a goood point...Moss fits the Shanny profile...speed guy perceived as a playmaker on defense and he's undersized. Remind you of Rivers in that regard? Shanny like Gold so much he resigned him and over paid him after he already left once for Tampa so why would he not try to find the next Ian Gold? He moved DJ once to make room for Gold...why wouldn't he move him to make way for Gold II?

Please let me be wrong...

1. Keith Rivers is about 240 pounds, hardly a good comp to Ian Gold physically.

2. Your theory is innately flawed because there were a lot of rumors about the Broncos having Rivers high on their board not too long ago. So interest has been there, ruining the whole "if he show interest we don't take 'em" philosphy

3. Wabbit recently said (and he'd know better than any of us) that the Rivers interest was simply a smokescreen and that we were hoping to tempt someone into helping us trade back.

4. Why are you making all these assumptions about Shanahan being 100% in control? If we should've learned anything from last year its that he doesn't want to be involved with the defense, to the extent that he tried giving Bates complete autonomy (until **** was hitting the fan), and let him spend multiple picks and some FA dollars to get the guys he wanted.

Its just as likely that Coyer, Sundquist, etc. were involved with bringing Gold back and that Shanahan really didn't care as long as they were getting the pieces they said were needed to fix the defense.

5. There's been a tide of change throughout the FO this off-season. Sundquist is gone, Goodman is basically in his place. We didn't spend big money on any FA acquisitions. We've actually brought some quality players at our need positions in for visits. All signs point to us changing how we handle things, including the draft. Trying to use preconceived (and mostly wrong) notions as to how Denver acts in order to predict the pick is invalid at this point.

We could go out and draft Tyler Polumbus with the #12 pick for all we know, or we might find a way to leapfrog up to pick #2 or something and bring home Jake Long. All we know for certain is that Bowlen has shaken things up this year and that old truisms aren't nearly as reliable as they once were.

[socalorado]

You know, I'm not sure we can go wrong here. Clady, Williams, Otah, Cherillus, Albert, Mendenhall, Stewart, possibly even McFadden, though he would scare me... all are good picks and have a very good chance of being great players in the NFL.

The first round class at OT is special this year. Long, Clady, and Williams all have pro-bowl potential. Otah and Gosder have RT and LT potential. Just as we should have grabbed one of the stud safeties last year, I think we should grab one of the stud OTs this year. While I agree that a first round prospect doesn't mean instant success. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't take one of the most important positions when given the opportunity.

It would be very tempting to take either Mendenhall or Stewart. My pref would be Stewart b/c he's a brick and can also earn some money returning kicks this year while Henry and Young carry the load. Stewart could come in and get 10 or so carries per game, but I'm not sure he's the best fit for our system. That would be either McFadden or Mendenhall, but neither offer the size/speed and returning ability of Stewart.

This is what pushes me over the hump on this thought process. We like the RBs in this class b/c they are big boys with good speed. But I have to ask, can we not get the same type of impact from a guy like Matt Forte, Tash Choice, Jamaal Charles, Eric Johnson, or my personal favorite Kevin Smith in the 2nd, *3rd, or 4th rounds? I personally think Kevin Smith is going to be a great RB in the NFL. He can run, he has good speed, and he caught the ball quite well. I think Johnson is going to be a Reggie Bush (minus the wiggle) type of player. His speed is incredible but more than that, this guy has Slot Receiver potential. Imagine a 3rd down RB that splits wide to empty the backfield (not that we'd ever do that...LOL!) and isn't not only a good receiver, but a huge mismatch b/c of his speed, routes and hands. I know that Shanny will fall in love with his speed. I'm also thinking Shanny will like his receiving ability. I realize that most want to get into the 3rd round, but I'd be willing to move up a bit in the 2nd round or even back into the 1st round to get a guy like Johnson.

Also remember there was talk about coming away with two of the "big three" in last year's draft. Harrell, Timmons, and Moss were our big three. We actually planned on moving back into the first last year for these guys. If Shanny really likes Stewart or Mendenhall, don't be suprised to see a move back into the first. Shanny has to win now. He WILL mortgage next year's draft to get $$$ players now. RB is weak in the 09 draft. I think we'll come away with both a RB and a OT in this draft. OT 1A and RB 1B!

Stewart of ALL those backs is the best fit for DENs system! L!OL!

[Ziggy]

SD's OL isn't shabby at all.....

2 pro bowlers last year on that O-line.

[NFLBRONCO]

I think they should trade down most of all but, that's me.

I think we should go OT or RB at 12. Yeah this team has lots of holes to fill. If we had a 3rd rounder I'd say OT alone but, this RB class is too good to not grab one.

[alkemical]

2 pro bowlers last year on that O-line.

ya, LT maybe the "showpiece" of the O that it is schemed around. But SD's Front Office did a good job at getting a good OL for that team.

[Bladerunner]

Every year the same tired argument is trotted out by people who think we're going to be a Superbowl contender. It goes like this; don't draft a lineman because X will make an immediate impact and an offensive lineman won't. Watch and see...if we do take a runner, and Cutler's getting burried under a blitzkrieg pass rush, NEXT year we'll hear the same story...dont' take a lineman...it takes to long for them to develop.

People who really know the NFL know you win in the trenches. Once upon a time when Denver ran the only stretch zone blocking scheme in the league they had carte blanche on all the talented but undersized blockers perfect for that system who were sitting there in the 6th round or even after the draft. Now a half dozen teams are fishing those same waters and our recent lack of success in finding new talent in the O-line has finally caught up to us. Chris Kuper is the only guy we currently have who is 1) young enough to be part of the long term solution and 2) appears to have real NFL talent. Look at this line; at left OT we have ZERO starting experience...a sure fire recipe for major problems. At left guard we have probably the NFL's smallest starting guard, one coming off a serious concussion problem that may or may not happen again, a guy who consistently gets rag dolled by bigger opponents but for some reason is seen as a pro bowler by the orange faithful who can only see the past successes of the zone blocking system and fail to understand that the opposition has figured out how to handle Denver's running game. Neither player on the left side no matter who starts at tackle is going to be a quality pass protector. At center we have a guy who is about ready to draw social security. Our best option when he retires or gets cut is our undersized starting guard who struggles against bigger stronger opponents...not really what you want to combat San Diego's 350 pound Jamal Williams. At right guard we have a free agent castoff who is OK but nothing to write home about. At right tackle our UDFA Pears is making nobody forget the horrendous George Foster.

This line is light years removed from the Superbowl winning O-line that led Terrel Davis and Elway into dominance and struck fear in the hearts of opposing defensive coordinators. Our sack numbers are artificially inflated by the mobility of Cutler and a short WCO passing game when the real value in Cutler is his rocket launcher arm that should be threatening teams deep 8 times a game, something we can't do without improved pass protection.

Drafting a runner will take some pressure off Cutler in the ground game, but at the end of the day it's got to be about improving the chances that this kid who has superstar stamped on him remains healthy and upright. I remember to well the Reeves era offenses that were all about Elway's ability to make something happen in spite of inadequate protection and poor offensive weapons. Now it seems we're repeating the mistakes of the past. Why not build a fortress in front of Cutler and utilize what this kid brings to the table for years to come with a solid foundation instead of another yearly bandaid fix that holds out the illusion of a playoff run when we all down deep know this team is in rebuilding mode and is not ready to win now anyway? The next two drafts ought to be about rebuilding the offensive and defensive lines and pretty much nothing else.

holy cow...as disparate as our mindsets seem to be on most other things, it's like you transcribed this straight out of my head...good post

[Inkana7]

We could fix this offensive line in two drafts. It's called staying ahead of the curve. It's vital to success everywhere, in business as well as sports. You have to stay ahead of what the competition is doing. Defensive linemen are now not only bigger but much more mobile and quicker than ever. The teams jumping on board the stretch zone system are essentialy followers not leaders...look who they are; Jokeland, Atlanta, Green Bay...I think Carolina fits in there as well...who else...Washington too? How many superbowls have these teams won in the recent past? Except for Green Bay, which is now under different coaching...none. The simple fact is...the system no longer does what it's supposed to do and now that we no longer have the only one of a kind running game built around it, the stretch zone's strongest element, difficulty for opposing teams to prepare for it...is now gone.


I think New England runs a lot of Zone too.

[Tombstone RJ]

Successful running starts with successful blocking. We HAVE fast guys running the ball. We just need people to open the holes. If we take a running back in the first round, we did not help our team one bit.

Wrong.

[Tombstone RJ]

Every year the same tired argument is trotted out by people who think we're going to be a Superbowl contender. It goes like this; don't draft a lineman because X will make an immediate impact and an offensive lineman won't. Watch and see...if we do take a runner, and Cutler's getting burried under a blitzkrieg pass rush, NEXT year we'll hear the same story...dont' take a lineman...it takes to long for them to develop.

People who really know the NFL know you win in the trenches. Once upon a time when Denver ran the only stretch zone blocking scheme in the league they had carte blanche on all the talented but undersized blockers perfect for that system who were sitting there in the 6th round or even after the draft. Now a half dozen teams are fishing those same waters and our recent lack of success in finding new talent in the O-line has finally caught up to us. Chris Kuper is the only guy we currently have who is 1) young enough to be part of the long term solution and 2) appears to have real NFL talent. Look at this line; at left OT we have ZERO starting experience...a sure fire recipe for major problems. At left guard we have probably the NFL's smallest starting guard, one coming off a serious concussion problem that may or may not happen again, a guy who consistently gets rag dolled by bigger opponents but for some reason is seen as a pro bowler by the orange faithful who can only see the past successes of the zone blocking system and fail to understand that the opposition has figured out how to handle Denver's running game. Neither player on the left side no matter who starts at tackle is going to be a quality pass protector. At center we have a guy who is about ready to draw social security. Our best option when he retires or gets cut is our undersized starting guard who struggles against bigger stronger opponents...not really what you want to combat San Diego's 350 pound Jamal Williams. At right guard we have a free agent castoff who is OK but nothing to write home about. At right tackle our UDFA Pears is making nobody forget the horrendous George Foster.

This line is light years removed from the Superbowl winning O-line that led Terrel Davis and Elway into dominance and struck fear in the hearts of opposing defensive coordinators. Our sack numbers are artificially inflated by the mobility of Cutler and a short WCO passing game when the real value in Cutler is his rocket launcher arm that should be threatening teams deep 8 times a game, something we can't do without improved pass protection.

Drafting a runner will take some pressure off Cutler in the ground game, but at the end of the day it's got to be about improving the chances that this kid who has superstar stamped on him remains healthy and upright. I remember to well the Reeves era offenses that were all about Elway's ability to make something happen in spite of inadequate protection and poor offensive weapons. Now it seems we're repeating the mistakes of the past. Why not build a fortress in front of Cutler and utilize what this kid brings to the table for years to come with a solid foundation instead of another yearly bandaid fix that holds out the illusion of a playoff run when we all down deep know this team is in rebuilding mode and is not ready to win now anyway? The next two drafts ought to be about rebuilding the offensive and defensive lines and pretty much nothing else.

Your taking a whole lotta time trying to explain away the simple logic that goes with drafting a dominant RB to help Cutler.

Answer this one simple question: Did TD dominate because the oline was great or did the oline look great because TD was a dominant RB?

I remember a guy by the name of Clinton Portis who did pretty damn well with what many people HERE considered a subpar oline.

[Tombstone RJ]

Sometimes? Our smallish O-line has CONSTANT problems with short yardage situations. It's time to admit something we'd rather not; the rest of the NFL has caught up with the stretch zone system and it's alternative philosophy. When teams saw this system once every three years or even twice a year in our division it made sense because they weren't ready for it. When we were the only team fishing this niche market talent pool it made sense because we could cherry pick talent that fit the sytem late in the draft or even after the draft. Those two things are no longer true. Half a dozen teams run this system now. The guru who started it is gone and not coming back here. We're lucky now to find one guy late in the draft who is truly gifted for this system and meanwhile it's primary weakness, pass blocking against bull rushers and moving the ball on the ground inside the red zone are hampering our efforts to both use our main weapon effectively (Cutler's arm) and keeping us predictable inside the opponents 20 yard line. It's time to junk this system and start building with some serious bruisers in the offensive line. Sure a great FB and a stud runner would help...but they won't solve the larger issues I'm talking about. Unfortunately, football coaches rarely change what they've won with in the past...even the great ones. I don't see us being willing to do this so we're going to continue to have the same problems year after year for the forseable future. I'd love to think we see Chris Willliams in here on draft day but it's more likely to be Keith Rivers IMO.

When Clinton Portis was the RB for Denver, what was the average PPG for the Broncos?

I really dunno, but I'm willing to bet it was more than the average PPG the Broncos have scored the last 2 seasons since Cutler started.

[Bladerunner]

Wrong.

no...he's pretty much right...Steven Jackson doesn't make the Rams a winner, nor Reggie Bush in New Orleans...Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown sure have elevated those Florida teams to prominence...Larry Johnson strikes fear in the heart of the Broncos these days doesn't he? Willis McAhee and Marshawn Lynch have made the Bills the lethal force they are today...the Bears are salivating at their second coming of the Sweetness in their first round can't miss running back from Texas...

it's the lines stupid

[Tombstone RJ]

no...he's pretty much right...Steven Jackson doesn't make the Rams a winner, nor Reggie Bush in New Orleans...Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown sure have elevated those Florida teams to prominence...Larry Johnson strikes fear in the heart of the Broncos these days doesn't he? Willis McAhee and Marshawn Lynch have made the Bills the lethal force they are today...the Bears are salivating at their second coming of the Sweetness in their first round can't miss running back from Texas...

it's the lines stupid

The Broncos oline is not trash. It's been a very good offensive line for a long time. Even when Clinton Portis was putting up 1500 yards plus, it was a good oline.

Does it need some help, yep, I've never disputed that. But drafting a dominant RB is gonna help Cutler a whole lot more than drafting an olineman.

[orange crusher]

how do we pull that off?

we don't have a 2nd rounder and i don't think we can afford to give up our 3rd?

Baltimore does have cornerback need but i don't think foxworth alone can move us up...

The difference between Baltimore's 8 spot and 12 is about the equivalent of a mid 3rd rounder (according to the value chart I've seen). Perhaps Foxworth and a 5th.

The difference between NE's 7 spot and 12 is about the equivalent of a late 2nd rounder. NE's secondary got torn apart this offseason and NE has a history of moving down for additional picks. Also, if they're looking at someone like Mayo, he'll probably still be there at 12. It might require more than a 5th and Foxworth, but we do have the picks to get it done.

[chaz]

no...he's pretty much right...Steven Jackson doesn't make the Rams a winner, nor Reggie Bush in New Orleans...Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown sure have elevated those Florida teams to prominence...Larry Johnson strikes fear in the heart of the Broncos these days doesn't he? Willis McAhee and Marshawn Lynch have made the Bills the lethal force they are today...the Bears are salivating at their second coming of the Sweetness in their first round can't miss running back from Texas...

it's the lines stupid

all of those team's had lacking/non-existant QB play...don't be dumb.

[Drek]

no...he's pretty much right...Steven Jackson doesn't make the Rams a winner, nor Reggie Bush in New Orleans...Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown sure have elevated those Florida teams to prominence...Larry Johnson strikes fear in the heart of the Broncos these days doesn't he? Willis McAhee and Marshawn Lynch have made the Bills the lethal force they are today...the Bears are salivating at their second coming of the Sweetness in their first round can't miss running back from Texas...

it's the lines stupid

Its both as well as the scheme.

And the ZBS still works when implemented correctly, it hasn't gone the way of the wishbone.

The problems we have had lately stem from three major problems.

1. Our defense doesn't stop ****. Teams have been putting up long drives the last year and a half and finishing them by putting points on the board, six more often than three. That forces us to pass more often and takes away any form of surprise or change of direction our offense could otherwise employ.

2. Our OTs have not been good. They haven't been absolutely horrible either, but not good. Against 4-3 teams they struggle with a capable DE, against 3-4 teams they've struggled against capable OLBs. When Our OLs lose battles where they have clear size advantages is when we lose ball games. Happened in the '05 AFCC game as well, the Steelers 240-250 pound OLBs dominated our OTs and it allowed their three man front line to go one on one with our interior line, keeping them from having any real freedom to set up or establish plays.

3. We haven't had a running back that anyone fears since Portis. It weakens the entire offense because we rely so heavily on the RB to set up the play action and draw plays that are paramount to making opposing team's front seven play us honest.

So what does that tell you? We have three major needs. DT, OT, and RB. Address any one of them and we're a better team in the '08 season. So lets consider what we have there for options right now.

1. DT - a year more seasoned Marcus Thomas and......Ekuban playing out of position?

2. OT - Harris and Kuper, two young and talented OLs. Already an improvement over a gimpy Lepsis and hopefully it drives a simply not very talented Pears out of the roster as well.

3. RB - Henry, who was good for a few games last year but is still a fairly safe bet to either get injured or fail a drug test, and Young and Hall. Two guys that Shanahan himself said aren't 20 carry a game backs. So basically the same trio that no one really feared much last year.

The biggest position of need is DT. You could make a pretty strong argument either way for the 2nd biggest need, depending on your faith in Kuper/Harris v. Henry.

I'd just be happy to see us address all three ASAP. I don't care what order as long as we're getting some solid players. You can get upper shelf OTs and RBs early in this draft, as well as some solid depth guys in the 4th and 5th at either position. We probably won't have a good value DT to pick at #12, and the later round crop is pretty crap, so we're kinda screwed there.

The only "shocker" I want to see come draft day is us making all the experts say "what?" when we "over pick" Trevor Laws at #42 and put a solid playmaking DT into the lineup. Trade a pair of late round picks for Robertson and we might actually stop the run this year, if thats not too much to ask.

[broncosteven]

I didn't read the whole thread.

If both of these RB's are on the board at 12 does anyone think they may try to move down a few slots to get them or just grab at 12?

[yerner]

The Broncos getting a rb is luxury that they can't afford right now. Really, I see this being pretty straight forward with the broncs selecting a OT as the top dt's are gone. Probably Williams who will still be available.

[Beantown Bronco]

all of those team's had lacking/non-existant QB play...don't be dumb.

*cough* Marc Bulger *cough*

[OABB]

dudes....

It takes both a rb and a line working together to produce results.

You can have a great line and a poor back will fair average. A great back(barry sanders anyone) can fair well with a bad line, but when they are both good, they can become great.

We have a great run blocking offensive line, and a blue chip runner will compliment it well.

If you watch our glory days with td you will see it was a perfect blend rb and line.

look at td's 2000 yard run, he had a defender in the backfield that he made miss. he did that alot actually. I miss that.

anyone can get a thousand yards here, but a great rb can get 1850-2000...

for denver's offense to click, we must dominate on the ground first...


mendenhall or stewart for our 12th or I will be a very sad panda.

[Drek]

*cough* Marc Bulger *cough*

Bulger isn't that good. Having a pro-bowl RB and two borderline HOF WRs helps anyone look better.

Also, St. Louis' line wasn't bad last year, it was otherworldly atrocious. Our line was better last year and will be better still this year.

[socalorado]

Its both as well as the scheme.

And the ZBS still works when implemented correctly, it hasn't gone the way of the wishbone.

The problems we have had lately stem from three major problems.

1. Our defense doesn't stop ****. Teams have been putting up long drives the last year and a half and finishing them by putting points on the board, six more often than three. That forces us to pass more often and takes away any form of surprise or change of direction our offense could otherwise employ.

2. Our OTs have not been good. They haven't been absolutely horrible either, but not good. Against 4-3 teams they struggle with a capable DE, against 3-4 teams they've struggled against capable OLBs. When Our OLs lose battles where they have clear size advantages is when we lose ball games. Happened in the '05 AFCC game as well, the Steelers 240-250 pound OLBs dominated our OTs and it allowed their three man front line to go one on one with our interior line, keeping them from having any real freedom to set up or establish plays.

3. We haven't had a running back that anyone fears since Portis. It weakens the entire offense because we rely so heavily on the RB to set up the play action and draw plays that are paramount to making opposing team's front seven play us honest.

So what does that tell you? We have three major needs. DT, OT, and RB. Address any one of them and we're a better team in the '08 season. So lets consider what we have there for options right now.

1. DT - a year more seasoned Marcus Thomas and......Ekuban playing out of position?

2. OT - Harris and Kuper, two young and talented OLs. Already an improvement over a gimpy Lepsis and hopefully it drives a simply not very talented Pears out of the roster as well.

3. RB - Henry, who was good for a few games last year but is still a fairly safe bet to either get injured or fail a drug test, and Young and Hall. Two guys that Shanahan himself said aren't 20 carry a game backs. So basically the same trio that no one really feared much last year.

The biggest position of need is DT. You could make a pretty strong argument either way for the 2nd biggest need, depending on your faith in Kuper/Harris v. Henry.

I'd just be happy to see us address all three ASAP. I don't care what order as long as we're getting some solid players. You can get upper shelf OTs and RBs early in this draft, as well as some solid depth guys in the 4th and 5th at either position. We probably won't have a good value DT to pick at #12, and the later round crop is pretty crap, so we're kinda screwed there.

The only "shocker" I want to see come draft day is us making all the experts say "what?" when we "over pick" Trevor Laws at #42 and put a solid playmaking DT into the lineup. Trade a pair of late round picks for Robertson and we might actually stop the run this year, if thats not too much to ask.

Nice post. Its all there people.
Laws at #42 would be perfect with Robertson for the 2nd 5th. Theres 3 DTs to complete the D-line. Mission accomplished.
Harris and Kuper take over at LT and one wins the job outright while the other goes where? Thats my only thought to this O-line issue. (just wondering)
So RB in the 1st yeah?!?!?

[Gcver2ver3]

The difference between Baltimore's 8 spot and 12 is about the equivalent of a mid 3rd rounder (according to the value chart I've seen). Perhaps Foxworth and a 5th.

The difference between NE's 7 spot and 12 is about the equivalent of a late 2nd rounder. NE's secondary got torn apart this offseason and NE has a history of moving down for additional picks. Also, if they're looking at someone like Mayo, he'll probably still be there at 12. It might require more than a 5th and Foxworth, but we do have the picks to get it done.

if thats the case i'd be open to just trading foxworth...

but i don't want to give up a 5th rounder too...

[BroncoBuff]

Great post by Drek....

The premise of this thread is flawed. Only a quarterback would qualify as a "shocker" to me.

[bpc]

Personally I think his time in the pocket had more to do with double covering Moss and Welker...

...but for sake of your argument lets go with what you say. NE doesn't have a first round tackle... in fact the only first rounder on their line is Logan Mankins and he was drafted at the VERY end of the first round.

I'm glad you're the executioner of Erik Pears career. I'm sure that attitude will take you far in the NFL personnel department. As will basing your judgement of a rookie that you've seen nothing of, off of that same Erik Pears evaluation.

Really, bpc... just stellar observations by you.

Ha ha, i'll put my "trenches" first mentality against instant gratification approach that you are taking any day of the week. Your approach is the mentality that has festered throughout Dove Valley and one of the reasons why our lines are so talent deprived in favor of skill position players. It's also one of the reasons why we get our ass knocked off by physical teams, and can't convert short yardage opportunities.

The difference between a team like NE is that they ARE committed to taking linemen high with their draft choices where as a team like Denver is okay with taking players in the 5th, 6th rounds and UDFA's and leaving them out on an edge to protect our multi-million dollar QB. You have to committ to your trenches. Denver has not done that and when they have, they REACHED hard. Ryan Harris might not have been drafted until the 4th round last year. Many people had him off their boards. Too light... to weak... bad back.

IF you don't get the fact that Erik Pears sucks, thats on you. If you can't smell the stank coming off Ryan Harris's career... well, you are just dull my friend. Something isn't right on that end.

If i'm wrong, i'll eat my words. Pears is lucky if he makes half the rosters in the NFL. Harris will be lucky if he ever starts consistently and doesn't battle back issues throughout his career.

SAVE this and we'll talk about it in a year or two. See who is right.

[bpc]

When Clinton Portis was the RB for Denver, what was the average PPG for the Broncos?

I really dunno, but I'm willing to bet it was more than the average PPG the Broncos have scored the last 2 seasons since Cutler started.

Maybe. What happened when we were getting blown out by the Colts in all those playoffs games and we didn't have an offensive line which could pass block and a QB that couldn't throw an accurate pass to catch back up? Portis was there, hardly had any results from them.

WE DON'T HAVE A HARD TIME RUNNING THE BALL. WITH BETTER OFFENSIVE LINEMEN BLOCKING, THEY'LL BE EVEN BETTER.

I just don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

I'm not against adding a good player in the first round. You get moving through the draft though and linemen start to fly off the board and we'll find ourselves in the same predicament that we've been in.

Let's just solve this need. Build around Cutler. We had what, 3 backs go over the century mark last year? Mike Bell sitting the pine after gaining 600 or 700 yds his rookie year?

PICK A HB? We already have players AND depth. I think Mendenhall and Stewart are good players but we've been highly adept at drafting HB's late.

Plus they have a shorter shelf life.

DRAFT OL!

[Requiem]

BPC, you know I'm a fan of getting an OT (but open to a RB) and have been hoping for an OT the whole year.

However, where is this Ryan Harris was off people's boards stuff? I have never heard that anywhere.

[Kaylore]

BPC, you know I'm a fan of getting an OT (but open to a RB) and have been hoping for an OT the whole year.

However, where is this Ryan Harris was off people's boards stuff? I have never heard that anywhere.

Yeah I'm not buying that either.

[bpc]

BPC, you know I'm a fan of getting an OT (but open to a RB) and have been hoping for an OT the whole year.

However, where is this Ryan Harris was off people's boards stuff? I have never heard that anywhere.

That's something that was talked about last year at least around some scouting circles i'm familiar with. You could compare the issue to Malcom Kelly this year with his knees. Things relate to each other... Kelly slow times show that he may have some knee/recovery problems and that has been widely speculated upon this year. With Harris, his lack of weight and strength gain throughout the latter part of his college career pointed to potential back issues which caused some red-flags at the combine last year. I know the west coast Dallas Cowboys scout and Harris was completely off their board. Some people moved him far down their draft boards after subpar senior bowl moments.

The concern was there... as always with Denver, we tend to look past those things... most recently RObertson, Watts, Middlebrooks and Foster.

[Requiem]

That's something that was talked about last year at least around some scouting circles i'm familiar with. You could compare the issue to Malcom Kelly this year with his knees. Things relate to each other... Kelly slow times show that he may have some knee/recovery problems and that has been widely speculated upon this year. With Harris, his lack of weight and strength gain throughout the latter part of his college career pointed to potential back issues which caused some red-flags at the combine last year. I know the west coast Dallas Cowboys scout and Harris was completely off their board. Some people moved him far down their draft boards after subpar senior bowl moments.

The concern was there... as always with Denver, we tend to look past those things... most recently RObertson, Watts, Middlebrooks and Foster.

Well, that actually sounds about right, and makes more sense considering they opted for James Marten over Harris (I believe he was selected a few before him) and then Doug Free later on. [Especially with the Cowboys.]

Thanks for the clarification man, and I hope your dreams come true on draft day!

[Beantown Bronco]

The thing with the draft is, as many as 30 other teams can have a guy completely off their draft board or moved way down their draft board.....but all it takes is that one other team to not move him down....and you are screwed out of your guy. You can't let what one or two other teams say affect you, or let you think it might be ok to move your guy down a round and snatch him there. You take him where you think he should go. Period.

[BroncoBuff]

However, where is this Ryan Harris was off people's boards stuff? I have never heard that anywhere.
No no ... that's true. Harris either had back surgery maybe 8-10 weeks before the draft, or was told he needed back surgery then. Rather than spend extra time researching the medical records, some teams (prolly those already set at OT) pulled him off their boards. I remember Harris himself saying something about that last year, that he was glad the Broncos were one of the teams satisfied he was healthy.

This is also why I'm doubting O-Lne at #12. Harris was a 2nd round talent without the back problem. We got him early 3rd round, and if he's okay, he's a Sam Baker/Carl Nicks caliber OT. So why draft another OT so high with Kuper moving to OT now?

[Tombstone RJ]

Maybe. What happened when we were getting blown out by the Colts in all those playoffs games and we didn't have an offensive line which could pass block and a QB that couldn't throw an accurate pass to catch back up? Portis was there, hardly had any results from them.

WE DON'T HAVE A HARD TIME RUNNING THE BALL. WITH BETTER OFFENSIVE LINEMEN BLOCKING, THEY'LL BE EVEN BETTER.

I just don't get what is so hard to understand about this.

I'm not against adding a good player in the first round. You get moving through the draft though and linemen start to fly off the board and we'll find ourselves in the same predicament that we've been in.

Let's just solve this need. Build around Cutler. We had what, 3 backs go over the century mark last year? Mike Bell sitting the pine after gaining 600 or 700 yds his rookie year?

PICK A HB? We already have players AND depth. I think Mendenhall and Stewart are good players but we've been highly adept at drafting HB's late.

Plus they have a shorter shelf life.

DRAFT OL!

Your point about the Colts is valid, I can't argue that, really. However, it is all about matchups in the NFL and the Broncos just did not match up well against the Colts. However, the Broncos did match up well against the Patriots, who the Broncos still consistently beat.

The Broncos beat the Pats, the Pats beat the Colts, and the Colts beat the Broncos in most occassions.

If the Broncos take an olineman at 12, I won't cry myself to sleep. I've never denied that Williams is my choice if the Broncos go in that direction.

What I am saying is that scoring points for the Broncos is on the downslide, and a top notch RB can cure that problem quickly. You say "build around Cutler." I agree!

Let's build around Cutler by getting him a star at RB. Let's get him a guy who other defenses have to game plan around. If the Broncos do that, things like play action will open up the passing game.

[BroncoMan4ever]

I completely agree with you but you're ignoring several possibilities.

What if Den doesn't think there is a problem?

What if Den thinks their players are already on the roster?

What if Den is in love with a 4th round tackle and think he's the perfect fit for their SYSTEM?

I'm sure OL will garner at least 2 picks in this draft... But there's no need to be closed minded to the point where Round 1, pick #12 is the end all be all for the Broncos franchise.

I totally agree. If the tackles they draft regardless of which round they are chose are going to take a year before they can provide any help, why not use the 1st rounder on a RB or a player that will actually contribute. Also Shanny seems pretty content for the season with the guys currently on the roster.

[BroncoMan4ever]

What I am saying is that scoring points for the Broncos is on the downslide, and a top notch RB can cure that problem quickly. You say "build around Cutler." I agree!

Let's build around Cutler by getting him a star at RB. Let's get him a guy who other defenses have to game plan around. If the Broncos do that, things like play action will open up the passing game.

Agreed.

Lets say we get Stewart and he gets 12td's for the team and in a change of pace scenario Young adds in 5td's. Just by getting a stud RB denver has upped there scoring by a TD a game.

Not only that but with teams having to game plan for a beast of a runner, that opens up Play Action passes downfield, and gives Marshall and whoever starts along side him, and Scheffler, Graham, and Stokely better matchups as teams will no doubt bring extra defenders into the box to stop the run, so the offense gets even better and not just with what Stewart brings them.

If Denver can shore up that D line and the LB's can put in a good year, Denver could surprise a lot of people this year.

[DarkHorse30]

A great running game, the QB reading defenses and getting the ball out of the pocket in time is just as important as getting studs at the tackle position.

Bingo. I like both Henry and Young....but I would like to see what a first round RB could do for the Broncos. Shanahan has wanted 1st round RBs in the past, but hasn't been SITTING on this high a pick EVER. Must be nice to not have to sweat doing a deal and just have the pick sitting there.

[mhgaffney]

Go back and review Denver's first super bowl win against Green Bay. If you study the tape you will see that Denver used its power running game to defeat the Packers. TD put the game on ice -- with a TD -- but he had the all pro and maybe hall of fame lineman Zimmerman on the left side leading the charge for him.

The Packers were not able to stop Denver's running game. We won because of the stud on the line -- in the trench. Without Zimmerman TD would not have been nearly as effective.

Williams is a safe pick. He knows Cutler -- has played with him. This will allow Shanny to break tradition and start a rookie on the line -- maybe by 4-6 games into the season.

[BroncoMan4ever]

How are people talking about our line like it is garbage. Does it need some youth....YES, but it is more than capable of opening holes for a RB. And if you give the team a nasty RB who hits the hole with authority it will help in the passing game because of teams worrying about the run.

[alkemical]

I'm tired of seeing things like...ben hamilton being pushed into the pocket by a big DT. I'd love to take a T/G for good insurance, if a good player is available at our spot.

[Drek]

If we do go OT I really hope its Chris Williams myself. He's a great pass blocker who needs to work on run blocking, but our scheme will help cover any run blocking deficencies he might have. We need a guy on the left side who can go man to man against elite pass rushers and stone wall them. I don't think Clady is necessarily that guy, he's had trouble with speed rushers before, especially if they have good inside moves. I know Otah is not that guy. Albert, who the hell even knows what he'll end up being.

If we go OT its got to be Williams in my opinion, he's the only one who really fits the bill for what we need most.