Clady/Williams/Albert/Mendenhall/Stewart

[Broncoman13]

I know there has been a lot of back and forth over who we should pick or what position we should pick. I look at it as a win-win! If we go with a guy like Clady, we get potentially the best OT in the draft... which is saying something considering the depth and talent at the position this year. Chris Williams would offer us longevity at LT and he also has the potential to be a 10 year starter. Branden Albert is at worst a Hutchinson caliber OG. That means moving the ball in the redzone. His ceiling, an all-pro OT! Mendenhall is a similar runner to xxxxxxxxxxxxx, he has the ability to not only gain the tough yards between the tackles, but also break the home run. He catches the ball well and we all know how the Broncos like to split their RBs out wide to empty the backfield! That leaves Stewart. IMO he is the best RB in this draft. Unfortunately he has two things going against him. His injuries and his running style. I think he's going to be a steal for some team in the 15-25 range.

The point of all of this... what is the downside of picking any of these guys?

We go RB this year we'll have a top tier prospect that we've been missing since CP. As many have mentioned, the OT prospects in next year's draft are great as well. The staff seems content with Kuper or Harris at LT so this could very well be the direction we go.

If we go OT in the first round this year, we have that OT ready for next year. He likely wouldn't see a lot of time this year unless it was Branden Albert playing OG. So, if we do go OL, I hope it is Albert. You watch how the Seahawks moved the ball with Hutch and then how their running game dropped of when Hutch went to Minny, and then all of the sudden Chester Taylor is a mad man... and then AD (though he's a mad man by his lonesome!) and it's hard to argue that a dominant OG is not a difference maker.

Folks, RB or OL... this is a win/win for us! So long as we don't blow it by taking Rivers, reaching for Balmer, or going after any slugs... We'll be in good shape!


BTW, did anybody see the Darren McFadden interview last night on ESPiN? I feel bad for the guy b/c he was seemingly born into a lot of trouble and bad situations, but a team would have to be nuts to draft him in the top 10. Whether his fault or not, he is bound to have some problems b/c of the people he keeps close (brothers). Brothers in and out of gangs. Mother that's been hooked on drugs. What are the chances of him getting caught up in a situation with his family? I wish him the best b/c he's had to overcome a lot to get to where he is at... but he's not Patrick Willis in terms of getting himself out of bad situations and looking forward. This guy simply has too much risk surrounding him.

[Gcver2ver3]

I know there has been a lot of back and forth over who we should pick or what position we should pick. I look at it as a win-win! If we go with a guy like Clady, we get potentially the best OT in the draft... which is saying something considering the depth and talent at the position this year. Chris Williams would offer us longevity at LT and he also has the potential to be a 10 year starter. Branden Albert is at worst a Hutchinson caliber OG. That means moving the ball in the redzone. His ceiling, an all-pro OT! Mendenhall is a similar runner to xxxxxxxxxxxxx, he has the ability to not only gain the tough yards between the tackles, but also break the home run. He catches the ball well and we all know how the Broncos like to split their RBs out wide to empty the backfield! That leaves Stewart. IMO he is the best RB in this draft. Unfortunately he has two things going against him. His injuries and his running style. I think he's going to be a steal for some team in the 15-25 range.

The point of all of this... what is the downside of picking any of these guys?



We go RB this year we'll have a top tier prospect that we've been missing since CP. As many have mentioned, the OT prospects in next year's draft are great as well. The staff seems content with Kuper or Harris at LT so this could very well be the direction we go.

If we go OT in the first round this year, we have that OT ready for next year. He likely wouldn't see a lot of time this year unless it was Branden Albert playing OG. So, if we do go OL, I hope it is Albert. You watch how the Seahawks moved the ball with Hutch and then how their running game dropped of when Hutch went to Minny, and then all of the sudden Chester Taylor is a mad man... and then AD (though he's a mad man by his lonesome!) and it's hard to argue that a dominant OG is not a difference maker.

Folks, RB or OL... this is a win/win for us! So long as we don't blow it by taking Rivers, reaching for Balmer, or going after any slugs... We'll be in good shape!


BTW, did anybody see the Darren McFadden interview last night on ESPiN? I feel bad for the guy b/c he was seemingly born into a lot of trouble and bad situations, but a team would have to be nuts to draft him in the top 10. Whether his fault or not, he is bound to have some problems b/c of the people he keeps close (brothers). Brothers in and out of gangs. Mother that's been hooked on drugs. What are the chances of him getting caught up in a situation with his family? I wish him the best b/c he's had to overcome a lot to get to where he is at... but he's not Patrick Willis in terms of getting himself out of bad situations and looking forward. This guy simply has too much risk surrounding him.


very good take Oskie...

when i do my own personal mock draft, i end up having us choosing between the exact players you mentioned minus Albert...

I believe we will be choosing between Clady, Williams, Mendenhall, or Stewart...

Here is the order of them on my wish list...

1. Clady
2. Williams
3. Mendenhall
4. Stewart

Now if Albert is also available I would slot Albert at #3...but I'm a little nervous of him because I always get leery of players whose stock climbs fast right before the draft (aka Akili Smith)...

So as long as Shanny picks one of the above players, I'll be excited...

[montrose]

Good thread. The Broncos are in a position to take any number of players that could help the team. While it may be a win-win, most will be upset when one player is taken as they believe another would help more. There's a very distinct misunderstanding when it comes to "need". Drafting a "need" makes two implications: 1) You're drafting that player to solve a problem that season. 2) You're not drafting another position because it's not a "need".

In reality, NFL rosters change over every season so while OT and DT may look like you're biggest needs in 2008, that doesn't mean that CB or LB might be your biggest needs in 2009; this leads to the first implication that your drafting a player to solve a problem for that season. While the NFL has certainly changed to where rookies are expected to come in and contribute immediately, draft picks (specifically 1st rounders) should be selected with the thought of becoming long-term cornerstones of the franchise rather than immediate fill-ins to a less-talented position. For those reasons, 9 times out of 10 you're team is best off selecting the best player available at your spot regardless of need.

For example, if the clear-cut BPA at #12 we're a CB - the Broncos would be best intentioned to take him. Now you may say, "But Montrose, we're loaded at CB! Our biggest needs are OT and DT." This is true, however lets go back to our implications. #1) This player, while we hope will make an impact this year is in reality being selected to be a core player in 2010 and beyond. #2) While CB may not be a need in 2008, it's very likely that by 2010 or 2011 that some combo if not all three of Bly/Foxworth/Paymah could be gone and Bailey will be staring at the downside of his career with salary questions. Suddenly taking that player at a position that wasn't of "need" in 2008 is a great move.

Now I am in no way implying we take a CB, just using that as an example. If the Broncos take the BPA, be it an OT, RB, LB - it will benefit them greatly in the long run.

[Broncoman13]

Good points Montrose. I agree that a need in 09 may not be apparent right now. But you have to look at in terms of what can you do for me this year as well.

Stewart is a guy that can return kicks (quite well I might add) and get some rest for 09 and beyond.

Say Leodis drops to us at #12, you know he can return the ball! You know that he's a top tier CB. You know that Champ is going to ask for more money soon. You know the chances of keeping Foxworth are slim. And, many would argue that Dre Bly is not a good Corner. Tons of reasons to take him at 12. Me personally, I would wait and try to get a guy like Cason in the 2nd round... if he falls. He or Porter would be fine!

Anybody hear or see where Dexter Jackson is supposed to fall now? I doubt he makes it to the 4th round... but he's a guy I'd love to have!

[Kaylore]

I'd be completely ok with us taking a corner with our first pick if it was the best player available.

[Atlas]

I know there has been a lot of back and forth over who we should pick or what position we should pick. I look at it as a win-win! If we go with a guy like Clady, we get potentially the best OT in the draft... which is saying something considering the depth and talent at the position this year. Chris Williams would offer us longevity at LT and he also has the potential to be a 10 year starter. Branden Albert is at worst a Hutchinson caliber OG. That means moving the ball in the redzone. His ceiling, an all-pro OT! Mendenhall is a similar runner to xxxxxxxxxxxxx, he has the ability to not only gain the tough yards between the tackles, but also break the home run. He catches the ball well and we all know how the Broncos like to split their RBs out wide to empty the backfield! That leaves Stewart. IMO he is the best RB in this draft. Unfortunately he has two things going against him. His injuries and his running style. I think he's going to be a steal for some team in the 15-25 range.

The point of all of this... what is the downside of picking any of these guys?

We go RB this year we'll have a top tier prospect that we've been missing since CP. As many have mentioned, the OT prospects in next year's draft are great as well. The staff seems content with Kuper or Harris at LT so this could very well be the direction we go.

If we go OT in the first round this year, we have that OT ready for next year. He likely wouldn't see a lot of time this year unless it was Branden Albert playing OG. So, if we do go OL, I hope it is Albert. You watch how the Seahawks moved the ball with Hutch and then how their running game dropped of when Hutch went to Minny, and then all of the sudden Chester Taylor is a mad man... and then AD (though he's a mad man by his lonesome!) and it's hard to argue that a dominant OG is not a difference maker.

Folks, RB or OL... this is a win/win for us! So long as we don't blow it by taking Rivers, reaching for Balmer, or going after any slugs... We'll be in good shape!


BTW, did anybody see the Darren McFadden interview last night on ESPiN? I feel bad for the guy b/c he was seemingly born into a lot of trouble and bad situations, but a team would have to be nuts to draft him in the top 10. Whether his fault or not, he is bound to have some problems b/c of the people he keeps close (brothers). Brothers in and out of gangs. Mother that's been hooked on drugs. What are the chances of him getting caught up in a situation with his family? I wish him the best b/c he's had to overcome a lot to get to where he is at... but he's not Patrick Willis in terms of getting himself out of bad situations and looking forward. This guy simply has too much risk surrounding him.

Great post. I'm going to call it now. Mendenhall will be the 1st RB selected and McFadden will fall. He might not fall to Denver however. Stewart would be the perfect Shanny pick. His stock has fallen because of injury but Shanny sees the diamond that he is. I would be fine with a T or a RB being selected with #12. That is where the value is.

[kmonty]

I'd be ecstatic with Clady, happy with Williams, ok with Mendenhall, hesitant with Stewart, and plain pissed with Albert. :)

[BowlenBall]

Enough of this crazy Mendenhall / Stewart / McFadden talk!

1. The average offensive lineman plays 3-4 years longer in the NFL than the average RB. Ergo, quality offensive linemen are more valuable to a team than quality running backs due to the longevity factor.

2. Mike Shanahan (and Bobby Turner) have consistently found excellent running backs in the later rounds.

3. This draft in deep, deep, deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep at running back -- exceptionally, amazingly so. Ray Rice can be had in the 2nd/3rd round (for example). Why pay a premium when you can get something comparable cheaper?

4. Mike Shanahan has never picked a RB in the first round -- remember him passing up Steven Jackson a few years ago?

Add it all up, and... there's no way in hell that we're taking a running back at #12. 'Nuff said.

[Kaylore]

I'd be ecstatic with Clady, happy with Williams, ok with Mendenhall, hesitant with Stewart, and plain pissed with Albert. :)

Albert is my favorite of the group. Clady or Williams I'd be ok with. I wouldn't be thrilled with renting a running back for four years, but maybe we could make him look awesome enough that we trade him for a good player after two years.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I'd be completely ok with us taking a corner with our first pick if it was the best player available.

I'd still rather not. I think we really need to continue to strengthen our lines on either side of the ball. That's where games are won, plain and simple, and both of our lines could use more talent. if our D-line is good, our corners become better. If we can't rush the passer like last year, then it doesnt matter who is playing corner. On the flip side, if we cant protect Jay, then it doesnt matter who he's throwing to. We won super bowls with good lines and mediocre corners.

[TheReverend]

Enough of this crazy Mendenhall / Stewart / McFadden talk!

1. The average offensive lineman plays 3-4 years longer in the NFL than the average RB. Ergo, quality offensive linemen are more valuable to a team than quality running backs due to the longevity factor.

And have a third the impact during that longevity!

2. Mike Shanahan (and Bobby Turner) have consistently found excellent running backs in the later rounds.

replace running back with linemen and you have an even greater truth
3. This draft in deep, deep, deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep at running back -- exceptionally, amazingly so. Ray Rice can be had in the 2nd/3rd round (for example). Why pay a premium when you can get something comparable cheaper?

what else is this draft deep in? rhymes with hymen... (hint: linemen)

4. Mike Shanahan has never picked a RB in the first round -- remember him passing up Steven Jackson a few years ago?

...but he was going to take Maroney, and Foster was the only first round lineman, and the results of that experiment are counterproductive to your argument

Add it all up, and... there's no way in hell that we're taking a running back at #12. 'Nuff said.

All in all, ****ty post. 'Nuff said.

[Gcver2ver3]

All in all, ****ty post. 'Nuff said.

........LOL ....

[Broncoman13]

All in all, ****ty post. 'Nuff said.

That's seriously Foneco'd... funny tho!

[Mediator12]

All in all, ****ty post. 'Nuff said.

1. You are severely overrating RB's value and underestimating the OL value. OL have to make a play every down run or pass, RB's see the ball less than half the snaps and rotate much more in the Now.

2. While DEN has been successful in the past with lesser OL, the Alex Gibbs system has not flourished the last 3 years and the passing protection has been so Bad they regularly are keeping TE's in to protect in a WCO. The Pass protection skills of a legit LT are needed badly for Cutler to take the 5 step drops Shanahan wants to do more often.

3. OT is only deep at the top and 5-6 will be gone in round one. RB is deep into the fourth round.

4. I think using the past as a blueprint for the future when looking at draft picks is counterproductive. Draft depth, selection order, needs, and schemes change yearly. Each draft has to have its own plan. That being said, OL and RB are legitimate targets at 12. IMHO, OL is harder and longer to fill need than RB for DEN.

[Broncoman13]

Sure come in and make sense Med! Let me ask this question though. Would it make more sense to draft a Clady/Williams or a Branden Albert. Again, Albert has the ability of a Hutch... which as we've seen lately is a big money player (Faneca $$$).

[TheReverend]

1. You are severely overrating RB's value and underestimating the OL value. OL have to make a play every down run or pass, RB's see the ball less than half the snaps and rotate much more in the Now.

2. While DEN has been successful in the past with lesser OL, the Alex Gibbs system has not flourished the last 3 years and the passing protection has been so Bad they regularly are keeping TE's in to protect in a WCO. The Pass protection skills of a legit LT are needed badly for Cutler to take the 5 step drops Shanahan wants to do more often.

3. OT is only deep at the top and 5-6 will be gone in round one. RB is deep into the fourth round.

4. I think using the past as a blueprint for the future when looking at draft picks is counterproductive. Draft depth, selection order, needs, and schemes change yearly. Each draft has to have its own plan. That being said, OL and RB are legitimate targets at 12. IMHO, OL is harder and longer to fill need than RB for DEN.

First: Thank you for replying.

1. Your point is taken, but how accurate is it? Let's take a look at what happens when a RB is taken high and the OL stays the same:

Minnesota Vikings
2006: 1820 rushing yards, 4.1 ypc
2007 (with Peterson): 2634 rushing yards, 5.3 ypc

Also counter productive to your argument is that in 2007 their starting right guard went down due to injury AND even more importantly, teams were able to key on the running game all day thanks to an inept passer in 07.

2. Actually the system has flourished so much that it's undergone it's most extensive copying in the past three years (Houston, Green Bay, Oakland within 3 years and Atlanta on the cusp).

Med, you're a defensive guy. What would your goal be if you were gameplanning a young QB? Would you try to pressure him a little more...? (see where I'm going with this one...?)

I'm not making excuses for any subpar O-line play, but another year in the system for Cutler, Kuper, Harris and Pears, along with the return of Hamilton and Nalen along with day 2 depth is the cure people are looking for.

3. I love draft experts and how "deep" a pool of ___ (insert position) is. For every Joe Thomas/Walter Jones/Orlando Pace there's a Mike Williams/Robert Gallery/Leonard Davis and even substandard D-Brick.

LT's rely entirely too much on a gifted LG that rolls to them every ****ing play. Think it's any wonder that Lepsis' play suffers dramatically without Ben Hamilton covering his inside so the oaf only has to worry about washing a DE outside. Go back and watch where he's getting dominated.

4. I completely agree with this point, but as usual, I de-emphasize the need for OL. That being said, I also don't think there's a true need at RB. I, personally, want a trade down for Connor. Picking Mayo would allow me to not break my TV, but we'll see. If a Mendenhall is the most valuable game-breaking player on the board at twelve, then I fully support taking him because a player of high caliber is going to improve the running game, and in doing so the passing game, and in doing so the protection, and in doing so defensive field position, etc.

[NFLBRONCO]

1. You are severely overrating RB's value and underestimating the OL value. OL have to make a play every down run or pass, RB's see the ball less than half the snaps and rotate much more in the Now.

2. While DEN has been successful in the past with lesser OL, the Alex Gibbs system has not flourished the last 3 years and the passing protection has been so Bad they regularly are keeping TE's in to protect in a WCO. The Pass protection skills of a legit LT are needed badly for Cutler to take the 5 step drops Shanahan wants to do more often.

3. OT is only deep at the top and 5-6 will be gone in round one. RB is deep into the fourth round.

4. I think using the past as a blueprint for the future when looking at draft picks is counterproductive. Draft depth, selection order, needs, and schemes change yearly. Each draft has to have its own plan. That being said, OL and RB are legitimate targets at 12. IMHO, OL is harder and longer to fill need than RB for DEN.

Great post Med

I think Denver needs to put higher priority (meaning day 1 picks) on DT OT RB WR positions when it comes to drafting.

[RocBronc]

If 4 out of those 5 are available when we pick, trade down 4 spots, pick up a 3rd round pick and then take the one you like best that is left... You'd at least be guaranteed one of them.

[lex]

If 4 out of those 5 are available when we pick, trade down 4 spots, pick up a 3rd round pick and then take the one you like best that is left... You'd at least be guaranteed one of them.


Yeah, all you need is the right charm/amulet to conjure the Trade Down Fairy.

BTW, I just wanted to point out that everything said about getting quality RBs without drafting one high, can also be said about WR and OL for us. We could also draft a RB at 12 and OL in the 2nd or 4th. After seeing Kupers numbers in agility areas, Im not only convinced he can play LT, but Im practically convinced he should play LT. I wouldnt be surprised if the FO feels the same way. And to draft a OG or a RT, you can get one of those a little later.

[RocBronc]

Yeah, all you need is the right charm/amulet to conjure the Trade Down Fairy.

And to draft a OG or a RT, you can get one of those a little later.

All you need is the right charm/amulet to conjure up the Late round OL fairy.

[lex]

All you need is the right charm/amulet to conjure up the Late round OL fairy.

I was talking more like 2nd or 4th for OL. And, btw, get your own material.

[mhgaffney]

A stud OT who buys Cutler an extra 1-2 seconds on every play to find the open receiver -- would be worth his weight in gold to this team --

Do we have that guy, right now?

[stugotsII]

I am against spending a first rounder on an offensive lineman. Way too expensive for a guy that isn't going to do anything for 2-3 years. RB's on the otherhand have proven to be able to help a team much sooner.

[montrose]

A stud OT who buys Cutler an extra 1-2 seconds on every play to find the open receiver -- would be worth his weight in gold to this team --

Do we have that guy, right now?

Yes, and his name is Erik Pears

[stugotsII]

A stud OT who buys Cutler an extra 1-2 seconds on every play to find the open receiver -- would be worth his weight in gold to this team --

Do we have that guy, right now?

Clady and Williams aren't those guys either.

[Natedog24]

Clady and Williams aren't those guys either.

I think your right, at least not in their rookie year and possibly beyond that.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I suppose you are going to tell us that Barton is better. The ignorance that this board has attracted is amazing.

[TheReverend]

I suppose you are going to tell us that Barton is better. The ignorance that this board has attracted is amazing.

Big Guy, you've been an awesome poster for a long, long time, and I've enjoyed reading your takes for years.

But you really need to get over yourself on this issue, dude.

You love Chris Williams, we get it.

Not everyone feels its priority #1.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Big Guy, you've been an awesome poster for a long, long time, and I've enjoyed reading your takes for years.

But you really need to get over yourself on this issue, dude.

You love Chris Williams, we get it.

Not everyone feels its priority #1.
No but they should.

[TheReverend]

No but they should.

Why?

Do tell.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Why?

Do tell.
Because nothing is more important than protecting Cutler.

[BroncoBuff]

1. You are severely overrating RB's value and underestimating the OL value. OL have to make a play every down run or pass, RB's see the ball less than half the snaps and rotate much more in the Now.

2. While DEN has been successful in the past with lesser OL, the Alex Gibbs system has not flourished the last 3 years and the passing protection has been so Bad they regularly are keeping TE's in to protect in a WCO. The Pass protection skills of a legit LT are needed badly for Cutler to take the 5 step drops Shanahan wants to do more often.

3. OT is only deep at the top and 5-6 will be gone in round one. RB is deep into the fourth round.

4. I think using the past as a blueprint for the future when looking at draft picks is counterproductive. Draft depth, selection order, needs, and schemes change yearly. Each draft has to have its own plan. That being said, OL and RB are legitimate targets at 12. IMHO, OL is harder and longer to fill need than RB for DEN.
I'm down with this .... though I still kinda doubt they're giving up on Ryan Harris this soon.

I hope Branden Albert falls ... but I REALLY hope we trade down and pick up a couple 3rd round picks.

[TheReverend]

Because nothing is more important than protecting Cutler.

And by what determination do you feel he isn't protected?

Last year, Denver fielded ONE (count em, ONE) offensive lineman with any significant experience.

Denver was in the top 10 in rushing.

Denver was NUMBER ONE in the AFC for YPC.

Denver also fielded a QB who loves to hold on the ball a little too long and stare down receivers (not a knock on Cutler, it's a knock on young QBs), and had HALF our starting O-line depleted by injuries.

The grand woe-is-me to protection? 2 sacks per game.

STOP THE ****ING PRESSES! THE LINE WASN'T THAT BAD!

You'd think it was the end of the ****ing world on the board if Chris Williams isn't the selection.

[TheReverend]

PS. Denver's still in the top half, for sacks allowed... despite missing two key starters and fielding 4 players with less than a years starting experience combined.

[footstepsfrom#27]

PS. Denver's still in the top half, for sacks allowed... despite missing two key starters and fielding 4 players with less than a years starting experience combined.
Who is our left OT again? Oh right...he's retired. The most critical positon in the line is Lepsis' old spot. The leading candidate to replace him is a guy who has never played the position before, followed by a guy who has almost never seen the field in the NFL and has questionable health. That's what you're willing to risk the franchcise QB on?

Forget the option rollout skewed sack stats and the stretch zone blocking produced rushing game that can't run the ball in the red zone. The simple fact is our O-line is junk and until we fix it we're going to continue to be an also ran.

[SoDak Bronco]

Brandon Albert will start instantly...bring him in..

[jutang]

PS. Denver's still in the top half, for sacks allowed... despite missing two key starters and fielding 4 players with less than a years starting experience combined.

You know I'm really surprised by that stat, cause everyone here on this board with a TV knew Cutler was pressured all season long, which got a lot worse when Graham went down. I think that stat is more telling of Cutler's growth of pocket awareness than the O-line not being that bad :D

[TheReverend]

Who is our left OT again? Oh right...he's retired. The most critical positon in the line is Lepsis' old spot. The leading candidate to replace him is a guy who has never played the position before, followed by a guy who has almost never seen the field in the NFL and has questionable health. That's what you're willing to risk the franchcise QB on?

Forget the option rollout skewed sack stats and the stretch zone blocking produced rushing game that can't run the ball in the red zone. The simple fact is our O-line is junk and until we fix it we're going to continue to be an also ran.

You're just a bundle of football cliches and lack of genuine insight.

The truth of the matter is Hamilton's return will do more for Jay's blindside than anything else.

The truth of the matter? LT is overrated. They rely HEAVILY on support from their guard who's going to roll to them in any pass play greater than 3 steps.

Why did D'Brick's play fall off significantly last year? Why just ask Pete Kendall! In fact, he's the reason why NY just tripped over themselves throwing money at Faneca so the mistake won't be repeated!

Hmmm... Walter Jones hasn't been nearly as dominant without Steve Hutchinson, has he?

You'll never hear me say a bad word about Joe Thomas because he's from my hometown and I know him personally, and he's a phenomenal football player, but do you think he would've been nearly as successful his rookie year without the quiet, stellar performance of Eric Steinbach?

...and since when is tossing day one picks at the OL indicative of a successful UNIT (please, please understand the STRESSING of that word)? The Eagles toss first round picks at linemen like they're candybars and still fielded one of the worst pass protections in the NFL.

I'd just like to hear ONE argument instead of the same rehashed bull**** over and over again of WHY Kuper, Harris and Pears will not be successful at the tackle position in the NFL.

Instead all you get from this board is: Kuper never played it before. But... I'm pretty sure he did play it at college.

And Harris is an injury case... I think the people who have watched him practice and play AFTER his recovery are much more qualified to be making those decisions than Footstepsfrom#27

And Pears sucks... but he's a young, UDFA, that developed fast enough to see significant playing time and quickly, and by all means, is still growing.

As fans, aren't we supposed to be supporting these guys instead of claiming the apocalypse if we don't pick #3-4 of the talent pool of rookies?

I'm not even opposed to taking a tackle. If Goodman thinks Williams is the guy, I'm behind it. I'm just significantly opposed to the thought that our current O-line sucks, because it's just a bull**** statement.

[wabbit]

...

We go RB this year we'll have a top tier prospect that we've been missing since CP...


A whole lot of excellent points OSKIE, however, I think the team currently has the RB...or tandem, that replaces the explosiveness of Portis.

Further, the coach & staff know it & have said so, despite their public posture.

The earlier comments that Selvin Young can't hold up as a feature back isn't what Mike is telling his buddy Gary Kubiak...or so I'm told. Those words were aimed at Selvin Young.

It's all blowing smoke...the Broncos want either Clady or Williams & they want to send signals in every other direction to make that intention as clear as mud.

I don't know if Branden Albert has moved up the Bronco board as he may have everywhere else, but I have to believe he may be an option at #12 as well, even if Clady & WIlliams are gone.

His utility alone are skills Shanahan prizes...Guard, Tackle...it's like dangling chocolate covered cherries before a woman on a starvation diet.

Word is out that Denver has plans for moving up, moving down and staying put, and each circumstance has a targeted group of players.

There are suitors for moving both up & down...I have no idea if the compensation is acceptable to the Broncos, but there are offers on the table.

[footstepsfrom#27]

You're just a bundle of football cliches and lack of genuine insight.
Take's one to know one.
The truth of the matter is Hamilton's return will do more for Jay's blindside than anything else.
That's nonsense. Hamilton can't even handle his own interior duties against the big DT's. He's a finesse blocker with great technique but if you think having him next to Ryan Harris is going to make a difference you're smoking the bedsheets. In fact Hamilton's undersized game is one of the main reason's this team can't move the ball on the ground in the red zone.
The truth of the matter? LT is overrated.
Not a single coach in the NFL would agree with this statement.
They rely HEAVILY on support from their guard who's going to roll to them in any pass play greater than 3 steps.
DT's rush the passer too...this doesn't even make sense.
I'd just like to hear ONE argument instead of the same rehashed bull**** over and over again of WHY Kuper, Harris and Pears will not be successful at the tackle position in the NFL.
Pears is not a left tackle and he's average at best even on the right side. Kuper's never played the position and Harris is a project who I'm not even sure took a snap on the field last year. He comes with question marks. I prefer a 6'6", 320 pound stud blocker who gave up 1 sack and 1 QB pressure in 850 SEC snaps against top competition to these three guys to protect our franchise QB. Sorry if you don't think that's a good enough argument but it's the one most of the people who know this game will also give you on this board.
And Harris is an injury case... I think the people who have watched him practice and play AFTER his recovery are much more qualified to be making those decisions than Footstepsfrom#27
Excuse me...when did Ryan Harris PLAY? I must have gone to the fridge and missed it. Get over yourself with the insults. I've been watching this game FAR longer than you have. Shanny also drafted Georgina Foster and thought he could play...Willie Middlebrooks ring a bell? Yeah we're great at judging how somebody's going to do after injuries.
And Pears sucks... but he's a young, UDFA, that developed fast enough to see significant playing time and quickly, and by all means, is still growing.
He's gotten PT because we have nobody else any better. You admit he sucks yet he's on your list of guys to protect Jay? That's just flat stupid.
I'm just significantly opposed to the thought that our current O-line sucks, because it's just a bull**** statement.
We're in the bottom 10 in the league right now, and that's before Nalen calls it quits and little Ben Hamilton's next concusion. Our best lineman is a guy the Saints didn't want.

[peacepipe]

however, I think the team currently has the RB...or tandem, that replaces the explosiveness of Portis.
Really, I watched every game & never saw it. I think CP had more TDs than our tandem had combined. RBBC doesn't work.

[enjolras]

Really, I watched every game & never saw it. I think CP had more TDs than our tandem had combined. RBBC doesn't work.

It does when your offensive line is VERY good in front of it. Running back is seriously the most overrated position in the NFL. Average running backs are all-stars behind great offensive fronts (see: Joseph Addai or Priest Holmes). We have the talent in the backfield, what we need are linemen who can get some forward push off of the ball. Clady or Williams bring exactly that.

[Northman]

Really, I watched every game & never saw it. I think CP had more TDs than our tandem had combined. RBBC doesn't work.


Try telling that to the Minnesota Vikings, N.Y Giants (Super Bowl Champs), and the Jacksonville Jaguars.

[TheReverend]

Take's one to know one.

But I'm making original discussion while you're just regurgitating bull**** you've read from other posters... not sure how you're little quip applies...

That's nonsense. Hamilton can't even handle his own interior duties against the big DT's. He's a finesse blocker with great technique but if you think having him next to Ryan Harris is going to make a difference you're smoking the bedsheets. In fact Hamilton's undersized game is one of the main reason's this team can't move the ball on the ground in the red zone.

Ah yes, all red zone woes lie squarely at the feet of one of our teams greatest players.

How did that work out last year without him?

Not a single coach in the NFL would agree with this statement.

Maybe true, but plenty of GM's will. Look at the price tag on LG's rising like the sun.

DT's rush the passer too...this doesn't even make sense.

It makes sense if you had the faintest clue about protections. 5v4=double team. Coaches understand the concept of a blindside. Therefor, C, LG, and LT all roll protection to the left. Center hits the 1 tech, LG takes the inside of the C gap, and LT washes the DE out of the play. On the other side of the ball, RG takes the 3 tech and RT handles the SS DE.

Naturally, different fronts will change the protection (since you've obviously never understood a football game before, that's what the center identifies and when blitz is shown the QB is calling out and pointing at, bringing the TE and RB into blocking assignments)

Pears is not a left tackle and he's average at best even on the right side. Kuper's never played the position and Harris is a project who I'm not even sure took a snap on the field last year. He comes with question marks. I prefer a 6'6", 320 pound stud blocker who gave up 1 sack and 1 QB pressure in 850 SEC snaps against top competition to these three guys to protect our franchise QB. Sorry if you don't think that's a good enough argument but it's the one most of the people who know this game will also give you on this board.

You're more than welcome to your opinion of prefering a LT, but when you come in claiming your opinion is the end all, be all and slamming our current players, you don't just sound like a jackass you are one.

Kuper played the spot in college at a pretty high level and played some solid ball last year. His biggest adv is that game experience and the professional game slowing down for him. That's something a rookie certainly won't have on his side.

I have yet to hear a negative thing about Harris other than his back surgery.

And Pears has played admirably in the positions he's been placed in and is only going to continue growing.

Don't you think the coaching staff is much more aware of their potential than you are?

Excuse me...when did Ryan Harris PLAY? I must have gone to the fridge and missed it. Get over yourself with the insults. I've been watching this game FAR longer than you have. Shanny also drafted Georgina Foster and thought he could play...Willie Middlebrooks ring a bell? Yeah we're great at judging how somebody's going to do after injuries.

Maybe true, not sure how old you are, but from your posts on this topic you certainly aren't very comprehensive of what you're actually seeing.

He's gotten PT because we have nobody else any better. You admit he sucks yet he's on your list of guys to protect Jay? That's just flat stupid.

When did I admit he sucks?!

Edit: I read the part you're quoting. Sorry for the confusion that was sarcasm on my part. Thought it was evident when I then highlighted how a YOUNG UDFA breaks into an NFL lineup and performs against top competition.

We're in the bottom 10 in the league right now, and that's before Nalen calls it quits and little Ben Hamilton's next concusion. Our best lineman is a guy the Saints didn't want.

Bottom 10 of the league?

Name one time when Shanahan has fielded an OL that ranked bottom HALF in ANY category other than weight you ignorant douche

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Really, I watched every game & never saw it. I think CP had more TDs than our tandem had combined. RBBC doesn't work.

And the colts...even the chargers

[kmonty]

And by what determination do you feel he isn't protected?

Last year, Denver fielded ONE (count em, ONE) offensive lineman with any significant experience.

Denver was in the top 10 in rushing.

Denver was NUMBER ONE in the AFC for YPC.

Denver also fielded a QB who loves to hold on the ball a little too long and stare down receivers (not a knock on Cutler, it's a knock on young QBs), and had HALF our starting O-line depleted by injuries.

The grand woe-is-me to protection? 2 sacks per game.

STOP THE ****ING PRESSES! THE LINE WASN'T THAT BAD!

You'd think it was the end of the ****ing world on the board if Chris Williams isn't the selection.

The line was bad. Period. Did you watch the Lions game? Either Chargers game? Either freaking Raiders game, for crying out loud?

You're throwing out stats like they're no big deal, but we are aiming for a championship, right? Not just "good enough" or "not that bad." And Cutler's 27 sacks last year was 8th worst in the league.

Finally, zero touchdowns against the AFC West Champs was a direct result of piss poor offensive line play. We weren't even competitive against the Chargers.

[TheReverend]

The line was bad. Period. Did you watch the Lions game? Either Chargers game? Either freaking Raiders game, for crying out loud?

You're throwing out stats like they're no big deal, but we are aiming for a championship, right? Not just "good enough" or "not that bad." And Cutler's 27 sacks last year was 8th worst in the league.

Finally, zero touchdowns against the AFC West Champs was a direct result of piss poor offensive line play. We weren't even competitive against the Chargers.

32 sacks. And 32 sacks puts the team at #15 in the league.

So where are you getting your bull**** information?

And do you mean to tell me that the Chargers (one of the best high pressure teams in the NFL) were able to confuse and get to a first year starting QB?!?!? OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Name a team they can't do that to.

And Detroit? So you mean to tell me in Kuper's 3rd NFL game he couldn't handle pro bowler Shaun Rogers? OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!Hilarious!

Way to cherry pick 3 poor performances.

How about those pro-bowl defensive linemen on the Vikings once our guys got some experience under their belts? How'd they do? 0 sacks?

[TheChamp24]

I can't believe people think adding a RB in the 1st round(Mendenhall/Stewart) will help the team more than adding an OL.
Fact is, the Vikings were only 3-6 in Peterson's games before he got hurt, and 3-2 after he returned, although the 49ers victory he played no part in(14 carries for 3 yards). Vikings went 6-8 with him in the lineup, 2-0 when he was sidelined. besides, Chester Taylor had 844 yards and 7 TD's with a 5.4 ypc backing Peterson up.
Broncos may of had the 9th best rushing attack, but they ranked 21st in points scored. Our 10 rushing TD's was tied for 20th in the NFL. We need help on the line so we can up that total. Remember when Priest Holmes would kill us? It was because of that great OL.
IMO, the RB position is one of the most overrated positions today. I would not touch a RB with a 1st round pick unless I had everything else taken care of.

[NFLBRONCO]

A whole lot of excellent points OSKIE, however, I think the team currently has the RB...or tandem, that replaces the explosiveness of Portis.

Further, the coach & staff know it & have said so, despite their public posture.

The earlier comments that Selvin Young can't hold up as a feature back isn't what Mike is telling his buddy Gary Kubiak...or so I'm told. Those words were aimed at Selvin Young.

It's all blowing smoke...the Broncos want either Clady or Williams & they want to send signals in every other direction to make that intention as clear as mud.

I don't know if Branden Albert has moved up the Bronco board as he may have everywhere else, but I have to believe he may be an option at #12 as well, even if Clady & WIlliams are gone.

His utility alone are skills Shanahan prizes...Guard, Tackle...it's like dangling chocolate covered cherries before a woman on a starvation diet.

Word is out that Denver has plans for moving up, moving down and staying put, and each circumstance has a targeted group of players.

There are suitors for moving both up & down...I have no idea if the compensation is acceptable to the Broncos, but there are offers on the table.

I hope we move down still. If Long goes #1 I would think one more OT if not two are gone by 12. Regardless of smokescreen I think most teams would figure OT is high on our list. Teams right behind us might jump ahead of us ie Houston.

[Mediator12]

First: Thank you for replying.

1. Your point is taken, but how accurate is it? Let's take a look at what happens when a RB is taken high and the OL stays the same:

Minnesota Vikings
2006: 1820 rushing yards, 4.1 ypc
2007 (with Peterson): 2634 rushing yards, 5.3 ypc

Also counter productive to your argument is that in 2007 their starting right guard went down due to injury AND even more importantly, teams were able to key on the running game all day thanks to an inept passer in 07.

2. Actually the system has flourished so much that it's undergone it's most extensive copying in the past three years (Houston, Green Bay, Oakland within 3 years and Atlanta on the cusp).

Med, you're a defensive guy. What would your goal be if you were gameplanning a young QB? Would you try to pressure him a little more...? (see where I'm going with this one...?)

I'm not making excuses for any subpar O-line play, but another year in the system for Cutler, Kuper, Harris and Pears, along with the return of Hamilton and Nalen along with day 2 depth is the cure people are looking for.

3. I love draft experts and how "deep" a pool of ___ (insert position) is. For every Joe Thomas/Walter Jones/Orlando Pace there's a Mike Williams/Robert Gallery/Leonard Davis and even substandard D-Brick.

LT's rely entirely too much on a gifted LG that rolls to them every ****ing play. Think it's any wonder that Lepsis' play suffers dramatically without Ben Hamilton covering his inside so the oaf only has to worry about washing a DE outside. Go back and watch where he's getting dominated.

4. I completely agree with this point, but as usual, I de-emphasize the need for OL. That being said, I also don't think there's a true need at RB. I, personally, want a trade down for Connor. Picking Mayo would allow me to not break my TV, but we'll see. If a Mendenhall is the most valuable game-breaking player on the board at twelve, then I fully support taking him because a player of high caliber is going to improve the running game, and in doing so the passing game, and in doing so the protection, and in doing so defensive field position, etc.

1. MIN is an extreme example of that logic and even that has holes in it. In 2006, Taylor was the starter and was averaging 4.0 a carry and in 2007 as a dual threat with Peterson, Taylor was averaging 5.4 a carry in 1/2 the PT. Same OL different YPC for the same back. This was easily the best tandem in the league last year and Taylor helped Peterson by sharing the load and keeping his carries down. It was the best case scenario for RBBC and the passing game only slipped 400 yards from the previous year while allowing 11 less sacks. The second year with that dominant LG you mentioned and that OL started to gel with a superior RB tandem giving them a potent 1-2 punch.

2. The running game has taken a major hit since 2005 when it was the number one Non-Michael vick assisted running game in the NFL. The biggest reason is that they are no longer scoring from the running game going from 25 TD's in 2005 to 22 in 2006 and 2007 combined. They still have a solid between the 20's YPC, but the red zone YPC is abysmal on a good day. Nothing says it more than getting stoned inside the 3 yard line 7 times by SF at home with the playoffs on the line in 2006.

As far as the pass protection, it has been quite poor despite the low sack numbers and it has affected the overall passing game. It requires more people to stay in because they can not execute a five step drop against a simple 4 man rush without Cutler getting pressured. Shanahan hates less than 4 receivers going out on pass patterns, so Graham did a lot of read routes to help protect Pears and it harmed the overall passing game.

3. The talent pool is different every draft, but talent does not execute, prepared players do. When you say this position is deep, it means one of 2 things. One, prospect tiers go farther into the draft before a comparable prospect no longer exists. OT is very deep early as it goes late into the first round before the tier breaks into lesser prospects. In comparsion, DT goes about 2 deep at the top and should be off the board in the top 10 picks. The next tier of DT's are nowhere near the top tier at all. Two, that starting level players can be found well into the second day. This is the case with WR and CB this year. Neither has a tremendous can not miss type talent, but you can find guys to help immediately in to round 4. RB is both this year. Deep at the top and deep in to the second day.

As for the LG theory, you want me to believe that Kuper is going to be all right manning LT in the future when he provided inadequate help from LG to Lepsis this year? Why, because Hamilton is going to come back 100%? If I remember correctly, it was Hamilton getting bullrushed in 2006 that was such a problem on the inside pass rush when he was healthy. How is Hamilton going to provide inside swing support when the DT is driving him out of his protection gap routinely? I realize that protection slides to help the LT, but they have to be able to stop the speed rush and the inside counter solo just as often as they get inside support from the LG.

4. All things being equal, you might just be right about Mendenhall or Stewart improving the overall offense in the short term. My biggest problem is that all things change in the NFL from year to year and that change is not linear. Its a process and inserting a new playmaking variable does not gaurantee success, just like inserting a new OL would not gaurantee success.

I guess it all comes down to philosophy and what you believe. I believe an elite LT prospect should Trump an Elite RB prospect when neither exists in an offense. You know me man, its all about the trenches ;D I do not want the ineptitude of the DL, to creep into the OL and that is what I saw last year. There were a lot of factors that came to play in that, and you listed a bunch already, but chemistry and inconsistency were the main culprits IMHO. That is why I would advocate Drafting a top OT in this draft to develop, because NO ONE is really going to play there the first year. Any OL is going to have to sit a year in this system, might as well do it now. The RB might give you more bang for the buck immediately, but if the OT's do not pan out in 2008, the risk of severe failure for the entire offense is hightened and you lose another year to draft and develop a replacement.

[TheReverend]

1. MIN is an extreme example of that logic and even that has holes in it. In 2006, Taylor was the starter and was averaging 4.0 a carry and in 2007 as a dual threat with Peterson, Taylor was averaging 5.4 a carry in 1/2 the PT. Same OL different YPC for the same back. This was easily the best tandem in the league last year and Taylor helped Peterson by sharing the load and keeping his carries down. It was the best case scenario for RBBC and the passing game only slipped 400 yards from the previous year while allowing 11 less sacks. The second year with that dominant LG you mentioned and that OL started to gel with a superior RB tandem giving them a potent 1-2 punch.

2. The running game has taken a major hit since 2005 when it was the number one Non-Michael vick assisted running game in the NFL. The biggest reason is that they are no longer scoring from the running game going from 25 TD's in 2005 to 22 in 2006 and 2007 combined. They still have a solid between the 20's YPC, but the red zone YPC is abysmal on a good day. Nothing says it more than getting stoned inside the 3 yard line 7 times by SF at home with the playoffs on the line in 2006.

As far as the pass protection, it has been quite poor despite the low sack numbers and it has affected the overall passing game. It requires more people to stay in because they can not execute a five step drop against a simple 4 man rush without Cutler getting pressured. Shanahan hates less than 4 receivers going out on pass patterns, so Graham did a lot of read routes to help protect Pears and it harmed the overall passing game.

3. The talent pool is different every draft, but talent does not execute, prepared players do. When you say this position is deep, it means one of 2 things. One, prospect tiers go farther into the draft before a comparable prospect no longer exists. OT is very deep early as it goes late into the first round before the tier breaks into lesser prospects. In comparsion, DT goes about 2 deep at the top and should be off the board in the top 10 picks. The next tier of DT's are nowhere near the top tier at all. Two, that starting level players can be found well into the second day. This is the case with WR and CB this year. Neither has a tremendous can not miss type talent, but you can find guys to help immediately in to round 4. RB is both this year. Deep at the top and deep in to the second day.

As for the LG theory, you want me to believe that Kuper is going to be all right manning LT in the future when he provided inadequate help from LG to Lepsis this year? Why, because Hamilton is going to come back 100%? If I remember correctly, it was Hamilton getting bullrushed in 2006 that was such a problem on the inside pass rush when he was healthy. How is Hamilton going to provide inside swing support when the DT is driving him out of his protection gap routinely? I realize that protection slides to help the LT, but they have to be able to stop the speed rush and the inside counter solo just as often as they get inside support from the LG.

4. All things being equal, you might just be right about Mendenhall or Stewart improving the overall offense in the short term. My biggest problem is that all things change in the NFL from year to year and that change is not linear. Its a process and inserting a new playmaking variable does not gaurantee success, just like inserting a new OL would not gaurantee success.

I guess it all comes down to philosophy and what you believe. I believe an elite LT prospect should Trump an Elite RB prospect when neither exists in an offense. You know me man, its all about the trenches ;D I do not want the ineptitude of the DL, to creep into the OL and that is what I saw last year. There were a lot of factors that came to play in that, and you listed a bunch already, but chemistry and inconsistency were the main culprits IMHO. That is why I would advocate Drafting a top OT in this draft to develop, because NO ONE is really going to play there the first year. Any OL is going to have to sit a year in this system, might as well do it now. The RB might give you more bang for the buck immediately, but if the OT's do not pan out in 2008, the risk of severe failure for the entire offense is hightened and you lose another year to draft and develop a replacement.

1. Despite dancing around it to try and sound non-committal, thank you for supporting my argument in point #1.

2. Absolutely it has. But don't forget how magical and super-healthy 2005 was. This past year saw injuries to 2 starting O-linemen and our league leading starting RB. 2005 also saw an insanely high TO ratio and put the O in healthy field position.

But don't pretend red zone rushing TDs weren't an issue in 2005. Don't forget that's the year Kyle Johnson made himself a household name in Denver and endlessly paraded his ride-the-pony touchdown dance.

You show me a team that executes 5+ step drops withOUT a TE reading before releasing into a flat, and I'll show you an inept offensive mind.

3. Personal preference and I do feel RT is a very important position also... but when you have the top tackle in "deep tackle draft" that's probably going #1 to a team with a right handed QB, that makes a statement about the talent behind him, whether you admit it or not.

If Kuper ends up not being the answer in camp, so be it, Harris probably will be. How do fans expect players to develop when no one wants to give them any playing time because they werent a first round pick? Instead they'd rather he rode the bench for his career and then criticized the personnel department for lack of success in the third round.

Maybe I'm wrong and they pick OL at #12 and he ends up being extremely successful. I won't complain.

Hamilton is way too underrated around these parts... and he's not even from Penn State!

4. In a business where a professional interview involves "What's your favorite TV show?" of course the NFL draft "science" is not exact or guarantees success.

You take who gives you the impact and I don't care WHAT position it's at. Because the impact is what's beneficial to the team. The impact is what keeps opposing coordinators up at night.

[footstepsfrom#27]

But I'm making original discussion while you're just regurgitating bull**** you've read from other posters... not sure how you're little quip applies...
Yeah...I'm noted around these parts for being somebody who always goes along with what everyone else things... Hilarious!

Check and you'll see I've been trumpeting taking first round talent in the offensive line ever since I've been on this board, usually as a distinct minority with that view.
Ah yes, all red zone woes lie squarely at the feet of one of our teams greatest players.

How did that work out last year without him?
Hamiltons' a great player? Not really...he's just better than the alternative. Anybody watching him get rag dolled every week knows that we give up a huge physical advantage with him in there reguardless of how well he can use his technique in the stretch zone running game.
Maybe true, but plenty of GM's will. Look at the price tag on LG's rising like the sun.
Odd...the first four offensive linemen taken in this draft will probably be tackles. Guard, left or right are historically among the last players drafted. The physical talent to play against speed rushers that are faster than you are on the right side of the D-line is a rare commodity.
It makes sense if you had the faintest clue about protections. 5v4=double team. Coaches understand the concept of a blindside. Therefor, C, LG, and LT all roll protection to the left. Center hits the 1 tech, LG takes the inside of the C gap, and LT washes the DE out of the play. On the other side of the ball, RG takes the 3 tech and RT handles the SS DE.

Naturally, different fronts will change the protection (since you've obviously never understood a football game before, that's what the center identifies and when blitz is shown the QB is calling out and pointing at, bringing the TE and RB into blocking assignments)
Nitwit I played college football. Who are you...Alex Gibbs?
You're more than welcome to your opinion of prefering a LT, but when you come in claiming your opinion is the end all, be all and slamming our current players, you don't just sound like a jackass you are one.
You're on crack. I said nothing of the sort anywhere on this thread.
Kuper played the spot in college at a pretty high level and played some solid ball last year
I'm not sure if he played tackle or not and a few minutes ago neither were you but nobody who played at North Dakota State "played at a high level". Who did he play AGAINST pray tell?
His biggest adv is that game experience and the professional game slowing down for him. That's something a rookie certainly won't have on his side.
So who takes his job at guard...hmmmm? Even IF he can play LT...a highly questionable assumption at this point...moving him will only leave another hole in the line where he lined up last year. We dumped our top backup in the offseason so now we're in trouble at another position.

Perfect.
I have yet to hear a negative thing about Harris other than his back surgery.
Eh...BACK SURGERY might just be enough. Besides, Harris was considered by a lot of NFL people to be a soft player at Notre Dame. Jacob Rogers had the same rep and he's gone now as well. He was cut from the Cowboys with that being said about him yet we picked him up anyway. At the time I thought it was worth a shot but sure enough he wasn't the answer. The best thing Harris has going for him is his college experience because college offensive linemen who started 4 years do well in the NFL earlier than those with less experience. At best Harris is a complete unknown right now. He might be fine...he might not be. He was a third round pick not some guy everyone was gushing over as a future NFL star.
Don't you think the coaching staff is much more aware of their potential than you are?
Who knows? They **** up plenty of stuff in case you haven't noticed.
Maybe true, not sure how old you are, but from your posts on this topic you certainly aren't very comprehensive of what you're actually seeing.
Says you. What's that worth? LOL
Bottom 10 of the league?

Name one time when Shanahan has fielded an OL that ranked bottom HALF in ANY category other than weight you ignorant douche
2007...we ranked 21st in the league in red zone offense and everyone knows it's because we aren't physical in the trenches.

There was a time not long ago when I'd waste valuable time putting a pea brain like you in your place after an unprovoked personal attack but I"ve come to realize it's generally a waste of time. Tossing around ad hominem attacks like you're doing is something anybody can do but it proves nothing.

[TheReverend]

Yeah...I'm noted around these parts for being somebody who always goes along with what everyone else things... Hilarious!

This is true... my only memory of you is that you hang around dogkiller forums fighting for their due process.

Check and you'll see I've been trumpeting taking first round talent in the offensive line ever since I've been on this board, usually as a distinct minority with that view.

Wow, during the height of success for Shanahan's system you were calling for a new system? You really are stupid.

Hamiltons' a great player? Not really...he's just better than the alternative. Anybody watching him get rag dolled every week knows that we give up a huge physical advantage with him in there reguardless of how well he can use his technique in the stretch zone running game.

The guys been a playing through injury standout almost his entire career...

Odd...the first four offensive linemen taken in this draft will probably be tackles. Guard, left or right are historically among the last players drafted. The physical talent to play against speed rushers that are faster than you are on the right side of the D-line is a rare commodity.

And within a few years a good portion of those tackles will be playing guard! Congratulations

Nitwit I played college football. Who are you...Alex Gibbs?

Was that back in the era when coaches didn't teach their players anything, or are you just lying?

You're on crack. I said nothing of the sort anywhere on this thread.

I'm not sure if he played tackle or not and a few minutes ago neither were you but nobody who played at North Dakota State "played at a high level". Who did he play AGAINST pray tell?

So you'll criticize his personal ability without giving a chance to perform? That's bright.

So who takes his job at guard...hmmmm? Even IF he can play LT...a highly questionable assumption at this point...moving him will only leave another hole in the line where he lined up last year. We dumped our top backup in the offseason so now we're in trouble at another position.

Hamilton... I'm sure there's a nice shiny object distracting you, but try to follow a conversation.

Perfect.

Eh...BACK SURGERY might just be enough. Besides, Harris was considered by a lot of NFL people to be a soft player at Notre Dame. Jacob Rogers had the same rep and he's gone now as well. He was cut from the Cowboys with that being said about him yet we picked him up anyway. At the time I thought it was worth a shot but sure enough he wasn't the answer. The best thing Harris has going for him is his college experience because college offensive linemen who started 4 years do well in the NFL earlier than those with less experience. At best Harris is a complete unknown right now. He might be fine...he might not be. He was a third round pick not some guy everyone was gushing over as a future NFL star.

Scouting departments done prettttttttty well recently... Are you trying to claim all great OLineman are first round picks? They need to entire the NFL with some parade and fan fair of mock drafts to be successful?

Who knows? They **** up plenty of stuff in case you haven't noticed.

Says you. What's that worth? LOL

I'm sure someone's hanging a dog right now, why don't you go protest for his rights.

2007...we ranked 21st in the league in red zone offense and everyone knows it's because we aren't physical in the trenches.

I'm sure a cautious approach with a first year quarterback had absolutely NOTHING to do with it...

There was a time not long ago when I'd waste valuable time putting a pea brain like you in your place after an unprovoked personal attack but I"ve come to realize it's generally a waste of time. Tossing around ad hominem attacks like you're doing is something anybody can do but it proves nothing.

Unprovoked personal attacks? I've only reminded you that your intelligence is lacking... it's something you regularly parade on display, so direct your anger somewhere more deserving.




.

[TheChamp24]

This arguement brings me great joy to see someone so optimistic about our average at best OL.
Hamilton is an average starting guard in the NFL. He gets worked over in the red zone.
I highly doubt Jake Long, Ryan Clady, Chris Williams, Jeff Otah will be playing guard like you suggest Reverend.
LT > any other OL position by a landslide

[footstepsfrom#27]

This arguement brings me great joy to see someone so optimistic about our average at best OL.
Hamilton is an average starting guard in the NFL. He gets worked over in the red zone.
I highly doubt Jake Long, Ryan Clady, Chris Williams, Jeff Otah will be playing guard like you suggest Reverend.
LT > any other OL position by a landslide
Careful...you don't want to be called a "douchbag" do you? LOL

[TheReverend]

This arguement brings me great joy to see someone so optimistic about our average at best OL.
Hamilton is an average starting guard in the NFL. He gets worked over in the red zone.
I highly doubt Jake Long, Ryan Clady, Chris Williams, Jeff Otah will be playing guard like you suggest Reverend.
LT > any other OL position by a landslide

Really? I'd call last year at WORST considering injuries and poor defensive situations, etc. and it was still far above average.

I'm fairly confident scouting departments saw great potential in Mike Williams, Leonard Davis, Robert Gallery, Shawn Andrews... but... at least Leonard Davis and Shawn Andrews are playing guard at a high level.

[TheReverend]

Will someone please just show me this phantom offensive line in the NFL that's so amazing in pass protection and how it took volleys of first round picks to make it?

Please... show me the team.

[TheChamp24]

Really? I'd call last year at WORST considering injuries and poor defensive situations, etc. and it was still far above average.

I'm fairly confident scouting departments saw great potential in Mike Williams, Leonard Davis, Robert Gallery, Shawn Andrews... but... at least Leonard Davis and Shawn Andrews are playing guard at a high level.

How many points did we score again? Oh yeah, we were 21st. Only had 10 rushing TD's. Plus, actually watching the games, you could see how easy it was to cause penetration against our OL.

They got moved to guard because they didn't pan out at a tackle spot, indicating that its harder to play tackle than guard, and thus is more valuable.
Leonard Davis went through 3 positions if I recall correctly in Arizona - LT, RT and OG. He sucked there at everyone one, and then joins up with Pro Bowlers in Dallas and is suddenly one of the best guards in football. Hmmmm.
And Andrews, he is playing RG for crying out loud, right next to Pro Bowler Jon Runyan.

Oh, and for RB's:
I'm fairly confident scouting departments saw great potential in Thomas Jones, Ron Dayne, Trung Candidate, Michael Bennett, William Green, TJ Duckett, Cedric Benson, Cadillac Williams

All picked between 2000-2005 in the 1st round. How did that work out for the teams that took those backs?

[TheReverend]

How many points did we score again? Oh yeah, we were 21st. Only had 10 rushing TD's. Plus, actually watching the games, you could see how easy it was to cause penetration against our OL.

Once again, "I'm sure cautious play calling for a first year starting QB had nothing to with that"

They got moved to guard because they didn't pan out at a tackle spot, indicating that its harder to play tackle than guard, and thus is more valuable.
Leonard Davis went through 3 positions if I recall correctly in Arizona - LT, RT and OG. He sucked there at everyone one, and then joins up with Pro Bowlers in Dallas and is suddenly one of the best guards in football. Hmmmm.
And Andrews, he is playing RG for crying out loud, right next to Pro Bowler Jon Runyan.

When have I said anything to the contrary? In fact you're only proving my point of how symbiotic the unit (remember where I put that word in caps and bold and then in parentheses talked about how I was stressing that ****ING WORD) is. Thank you for further proving my point...

Oh, and for RB's:
I'm fairly confident scouting departments saw great potential in Thomas Jones, Ron Dayne, Trung Candidate, Michael Bennett, William Green, TJ Duckett, Cedric Benson, Cadillac Williams

All picked between 2000-2005 in the 1st round. How did that work out for the teams that took those backs?

I DONT WANT A RUNNING BACK! JESUS ****ING CHRIST!



.

[TheChamp24]

That whole cautious in Cutler's 1st year crap is freakin BS. Don't tell me the Patriots went cautious with Brady, or the Colts with Manning.
Coming up with a Maddenism here, but the point is to score fricken points. We couldn't do that last year, we got pile drived back a majority of the time.

And so if you don't want a RB, or an OT, wtf do you want?

[TheReverend]

That whole cautious in Cutler's 1st year crap is freakin BS. Don't tell me the Patriots went cautious with Brady, or the Colts with Manning.
Coming up with a Maddenism here, but the point is to score fricken points. We couldn't do that last year, we got pile drived back a majority of the time.

And so if you don't want a RB, or an OT, wtf do you want?

I want Dan Connor. ROFL! But that's neither here nor there.

And if you didn't see caution in the playcalling, I don't know what to tell you...

[TheReverend]

Okay, so since Jay Cutler's protection seems to be paramount and since our offensive line was so terribly inadequate, I looked up the top 5 offensive lines in 2007 in terms of protecting the QB from sacks and then checked the individual starters draft pedigree...

#1. New Orleans Saints
#2. Cincinnati
#3. Green Bay
#4. Cleveland
#5. NE

Interestingly enough, out of 25 starting offensive linemen, 7 were first rounders 3 of which were LTs and have 2 total probowls between them all, meanwhile there were also 7 players drafted in the 7th round or later (UDFAs), with many more pro-bowls between them.

In fact the average round of the "NE UNDERSTANDS IT ALL STARTS IN THE TRENCHES!!!!!!!!" Patriots is the fourth, Logan Mankins being the sole first round pick (How'd they find talent down at #32?)

[TheReverend]

3. The talent pool is different every draft, but talent does not execute, prepared players do. When you say this position is deep, it means one of 2 things. One, prospect tiers go farther into the draft before a comparable prospect no longer exists. OT is very deep early as it goes late into the first round before the tier breaks into lesser prospects. In comparsion, DT goes about 2 deep at the top and should be off the board in the top 10 picks. The next tier of DT's are nowhere near the top tier at all. Two, that starting level players can be found well into the second day. This is the case with WR and CB this year. Neither has a tremendous can not miss type talent, but you can find guys to help immediately in to round 4. RB is both this year. Deep at the top and deep in to the second day.

I just wanted to go over this point and more in depth because it seems like this exact point is the root of all this mess.

I'm really convinced the majority of the first round is nearly all mock draft "expert" hype and NFL GMs are too nervous to take someone their scouts have graded higher because of media lashback. At least Buffallo still has a pair of balls!

The last time the media told us a draft was deep at a position (enough time passed to make an accurate judgement), we were told it was WR in 2005. SIX receivers off the board in the first round!!!!

Braylon Edwards is the only one who deserves to be a starting NFL receiver, accompanied by Carlson Rogers, media hype job Mike Williams, SUPER work out warrior and mega media hype job Matt Jones, Mark Clayton, and Roddy White.

The scouts will do their jobs. The picks will surprise everyone, we'll get some good O-line depth at some point this weekend, and in the end the unit will perform as usual.

[Northman]

The last time the media told us a draft was deep at a position (enough time passed to make an accurate judgement), we were told it was WR in 2005. SIX receivers off the board in the first round!!!!



So, does that mean that RB is overrated this year?

[TheReverend]

So, does that mean that RB is overrated this year?

Odds are, yes.

The last time RB was "deep" with "top notch" talent, saw Ced Benson, Cadillac and Ronne Brown in the top 5.

All are setting the NFL on fire... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: In Cadillac's defense he was great pre-injury.

[Northman]

Odds are, yes.

The last time RB was "deep" with "top notch" talent, saw Ced Benson, Cadillac and Ronne Brown in the top 5.

All are setting the NFL on fire... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: In Cadillac's defense he was great pre-injury.


But arent you in the "draft a back" crowd? Im confused.

[TheReverend]

But arent you in the "draft a back" crowd? Im confused.

Yes and no.

Personally, I want Leodis McKelvin available at 12 to bait Dallas into coughing up their two firsts.

From there, I'd grab Cherilus at 22 and Connor at 28 and then Laws at 42. On day 2 I'd grab a situational fat boy run stuffer or trade for Dewayne Robertson offering a fifth and a sixth no matter what the Eagles are paying. I'd also draft interior O-line depth/developmental projects and try to land a solid kicker.

That being said, from what I know of Goodman, I've got a lot of faith and I'm giving him that faith bar none (Keith Rivers aside--that will cost me thousands of dollars in broken ****). If he picks Chris Williams, I know he's watched him for years and I'll know that he's THE player for Denver. If he passes on Chris Williams, I'll know he certainly isn't worthy of the hype that took him from a 3rd round pick during the college season, to a 2nd round pick at the senior bowl to a high first round pick while no football has been played.

Honestly I ****ing hate the first round. The competition level is so screwy at the collegiate level its genuinely difficult to guage who's good. Where a player played in highschool can actually cost him millions of dollars despite his talent level. SEC players get priority and players who produce on the field fall to work out warriors with 40 times. Players from USC get a +3 round bonus to their actual talent level and never live up to expectations. I think a lot of GMs of teams actually worry, now that it's becoming a large media fan fare, about their report cards and whether they reach or not, and it's affecting the whole process in a negative way.

I love Buffallo's approach the past two years. They take who they want, when they can, regardless of wtf the media thinks.

Michael Huff goes 7, we take Donte Whitner at 8. Draft enthusiasts immediately fail them in their faggy little report cards because goodluck finding Whitner on a Mock Draft... meanwhile Whitner's the player and Huff will be a backup on his second contract.

Marshawn Lynch was a reach too... but I'll be damned if he didn't dramatically improve their franchise.

I guess I just want everyone to just shut the **** up and let the teams do their jobs.

[Northman]

Yes and no.

Personally, I want Leodis McKelvin available at 12 to bait Dallas into coughing up their two firsts.



Fair enough but do you actually think that Dallas would give up 2 firsts for McKelvin? I dont see that being a possibility at all no matter who the trade partner is.

[TheReverend]

Fair enough but do you actually think that Dallas would give up 2 firsts for McKelvin? I dont see that being a possibility at all no matter who the trade partner is.

Jerry Jones manuevered last years draft to position himself for the player that would put him over the top this year. In 2007 they were a great team, imagine returning all of those stars, imagine your O-coordinator gets a head coaching job but you throw money at him to keep him longer so you can have this genuine shot, and you know you're one bad ass corner away from being an amazing team.

So yeah, with Jerry Jones I think that's not only a possibility, but it's the probability. Right now I'm guessing he's offered Mike 22 and their third... but if Leodis is there at 12 on saturday, I'm guessing he comes in his pants and is on the phone by 9:58 left on the clock.

[montrose]

A whole lot of excellent points OSKIE, however, I think the team currently has the RB...or tandem, that replaces the explosiveness of Portis.

Further, the coach & staff know it & have said so, despite their public posture.

The earlier comments that Selvin Young can't hold up as a feature back isn't what Mike is telling his buddy Gary Kubiak...or so I'm told. Those words were aimed at Selvin Young.

It's all blowing smoke...the Broncos want either Clady or Williams & they want to send signals in every other direction to make that intention as clear as mud.

I don't know if Branden Albert has moved up the Bronco board as he may have everywhere else, but I have to believe he may be an option at #12 as well, even if Clady & WIlliams are gone.

His utility alone are skills Shanahan prizes...Guard, Tackle...it's like dangling chocolate covered cherries before a woman on a starvation diet.

Word is out that Denver has plans for moving up, moving down and staying put, and each circumstance has a targeted group of players.

There are suitors for moving both up & down...I have no idea if the compensation is acceptable to the Broncos, but there are offers on the table.

God I hope you're right.

[kmonty]

32 sacks. And 32 sacks puts the team at #15 in the league.

So where are you getting your bull**** information?

And do you mean to tell me that the Chargers (one of the best high pressure teams in the NFL) were able to confuse and get to a first year starting QB?!?!? OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Name a team they can't do that to.

And Detroit? So you mean to tell me in Kuper's 3rd NFL game he couldn't handle pro bowler Shaun Rogers? OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!Hilarious!

Way to cherry pick 3 poor performances.

How about those pro-bowl defensive linemen on the Vikings once our guys got some experience under their belts? How'd they do? 0 sacks?

My information wasn't bull**** Rev, for the record. We just looked it up differently - you looked up team stats, I looked up player stats, and Jay Cutelr was the 8th most sacked QB in the league when comparing to other QBs. I realize now that's not as accurate as yours to grade the o-line (injured QBs and all get the team sack total split), but whoop de doo. 15th still isn't championship level, and you can't deny that Jay Cutler's underrated scrambling had a lot to do with that number being down.

And cherry picking bad games? Are you serious?! That's FIVE bad games that came off the top of my head, against 3 opponents. After, I don't know, another half second's thought, the Jaguars and the Texans sure gave us a lot of fits too. The freaking Houston Texans absolutely destroyed us. What, we scored 17 points against the Packers? 14? Hey, while we're at it, let's imagine that the Titans had a healthy Haynesworth. I'd rather not, frankly.

I like Hamilton a lot, I think he's underrated, but his return isn't going to shore up this offensive line, I'm sorry. You try to say that we're not giving our current guys a chance by drafting an OT, which you could just as easily say when you draft at any position! When drafting a RB, aren't we NOT giving Selvin Young and Andre Hall a chance?

If you're going to use stats to justify passing on an OT, why do you refuse to look at Young's 5+ yards per carry last year? Oh, because he gets injured?

So does Ryan Harris.

Your arguments for each game don't make sense anyway. Against Detroit they were bad because Chris Kuper faced Shaun Rogers in Kupe's third game. Funny how Rogers was a non factor the rest of the season. Against Minnesota they were good because they got time under their belt. What about one week before, in San Diego?! Oh, that's right, our QB is 'young,' so that's Cutler's fault.

Give me a break man! You're making every excuse thinkable for every bad game, and it's a different excuse every time! And half of your excuses basically boil down to: "Well, the other team is really good." I want the Broncos offensive line to be "really good." I want to beat the Chargers. Don't you?

[TheChamp24]

The last time the media told us a draft was deep at a position (enough time passed to make an accurate judgement), we were told it was WR in 2005. SIX receivers off the board in the first round!!!!

Braylon Edwards is the only one who deserves to be a starting NFL receiver, accompanied by Carlson Rogers, media hype job Mike Williams, SUPER work out warrior and mega media hype job Matt Jones, Mark Clayton, and Roddy White.


Edwards is a stud
Troy Williamson is a horrid bust, THAT is not scouting and just looking at combine numbers
Mike Williams I never really liked and he was hyped beyond belief
Matt Jones was another combines number guy
Mark Clayton had an okay rookie season, 44 catches for 471 yards 2 TD's, and a solid 2nd year with 67 catches for 939 yards and 5 TD's. Saying he isn't a starting NFL receiver is kinda outlandish as he is a decent #2
The biggest joke you made though was saying Roddy White wasn't starting material. Did you even look at his stats? 83 catches for 1,202 yards and 6 TD's. Yeah, he sure isn't a starting WR in the NFL. Whatever buddy.

1 stud WR, 1 solid WR, 1 decent WR, 3 busts out of those 6 WR's