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View Full Version : Define irony - 'World peace' hitcher is murdered


TDmvp
04-13-2008, 01:27 AM
'World peace' hitcher is murdered'


An Italian woman artist who was hitch-hiking to the Middle East dressed as a bride to promote world peace has been found murdered in Turkey.

The naked body of Giuseppina Pasqualino di Marineo, 33, known as Pippa Bacca, was found in bushes near the northern city of Gebze on Friday.

She had said she wanted to show that she could put her trust in the kindness of local people.

Turkish police say they have detained a man in connection with the killing.

Reports say the man led the police to the body.

Autopsy

Ms di Marineo was hitch-hiking from Milan to Israel and the Palestinian Territories with a fellow artist on their "Brides on Tour" project.

They had separated in Istanbul, planning to reunite in Beirut.

map

Ms di Marineo was last seen on 31 March in Gebze.

An Italian embassy official told the Associated Press news agency police tracked the man when he put a new SIM card into Ms di Marineo's mobile phone.

Local media identified the suspect only by the initials MK and said he had a previous conviction for theft.

Ms di Marineo's sister, who had gone to Turkey to look for her, identified the body. An autopsy is being conducted in Istanbul.

"Her travels were for an artistic performance and to give a message of peace and of trust, but not everyone deserves trust," another sister, Maria, told the Italian news agency, Ansa.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7344381.stm


jeez ... thats just wrong

Bronx33
04-13-2008, 01:39 AM
what exactly was she expecting? you can just put this story in the darwin awards section.

TDmvp
04-13-2008, 01:41 AM
what exactly was she expecting? you can just put this story in the darwin awards section.

sad but true

Kaylore
04-13-2008, 03:04 AM
I agree. This was a terrible but if someone wants to gamble with their life there isn't much you can do. See Grizzly Man.

Ratboy
04-13-2008, 03:15 AM
I barely have any remorse for these people. You mess with fire, you're going to get burned.

watermock
04-13-2008, 04:21 AM
I'm sorry, but I am LOL.

Speaking of Darwin, nice move activating her phone...jeezus...

baja
04-13-2008, 04:40 AM
On the Phone

No kidding Mock.

It's good to seeyou here late night Mock. It's like old times.

Now STFU. ;D

That One Guy
04-13-2008, 10:55 AM
As someone who has played the phone game... just a hint to everyone: when in trouble, stay away from f-ing cell phones!

Dukes
04-13-2008, 11:07 AM
What a fool

Tombstone RJ
04-13-2008, 11:14 AM
what exactly was she expecting? you can just put this story in the darwin awards section.

Exactly. This has Darwin Award written all over it.

alkemical
04-13-2008, 11:26 PM
I saw this story recently where a behaviour specialist was stabbed at a speech...what - he didn't see it coming?

sixtimeseight
04-13-2008, 11:45 PM
There is nothing ironic about a 33 year old woman hitchhiking across Europe by herself getting raped and murdered, regardless of what cause she was promoting. Why is it that 99.99% of people cannot use the term "irony" correctly?

penguintheory
04-14-2008, 12:20 AM
There is nothing ironic about a 33 year old woman hitchhiking across Europe by herself getting raped and murdered, regardless of what cause she was promoting. Why is it that 99.99% of people cannot use the term "irony" correctly?

This post is brimming with irony in itself!

That One Guy
04-14-2008, 12:26 AM
There is nothing ironic about a 33 year old woman hitchhiking across Europe by herself getting raped and murdered, regardless of what cause she was promoting. Why is it that 99.99% of people cannot use the term "irony" correctly?

The irony was that she was campaigning for world peace and proving that she could trust the locals as she hitchhiked, dummy.

thumpc
04-14-2008, 09:34 AM
I see many of us on the Mane have travelled the Earth a great deal. Just about every place I go has a negative image, or bad press in the US. When I get there and interact with locals I find its never at all like what I had heard before.
This idea is what she was trying to prove, but damn, a female hitching alone in Turkey of all places? Unless she was some sort of kung fu genius...

That One Guy
04-14-2008, 09:56 AM
I see many of us on the Mane have travelled the Earth a great deal. Just about every place I go has a negative image, or bad press in the US. When I get there and interact with locals I find its never at all like what I had heard before.
This idea is what she was trying to prove, but damn, a female hitching alone in Turkey of all places? Unless she was some sort of kung fu genius...

99.9% of people out there are probably good people. Unfortunately, that .1 % can negate all the good people in the world. A whole population can make you feel welcome and one guy can leave you in the bushes. If she's trying to hitchhike around the world by herself she's a damn fool. I wouldn't hitchhike across the US, definitely wont do it in the middle east.

baja
04-14-2008, 10:17 AM
As a young man I hitched across the States. I had some great experiences and a few scary ones, one very scary one. i would not do that in today's world though.

It took a great deal of conviction and trust in her fellow man to do this. Clearly, rather wise or unwise, she was far more courageous than all you smug, non risk taking wimps that are laughing at her. Some of you people are just flat out embarrassing as human beings. What ever happened to compassion?

no-pseudo-fan
04-14-2008, 10:35 AM
Sad. Like when a clown cries.
http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/DGV/DGV051/775041.jpg

We live in a violent world, and people should realize that. I think that the world should be safer, but I know to protect my family and myself from these psycho's

alkemical
04-14-2008, 10:55 AM
Dude, put the clown away

baja
04-14-2008, 11:06 AM
Sad. Like when a clown cries.
http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/DGV/DGV051/775041.jpg

We live in a violent world, and people should realize that. I think that the world should be safer, but I know to protect my family and myself from these psycho's

Look I'm not saying what she did was smart I'm acknowledging her courage. Would you have the balls to hitch hike wearing a wedding dress in Turkey. Didn't think so..

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 11:12 AM
Look I'm not saying what she did was smart I'm acknowledging her courage. Would you have the balls to hitch hike wearing a wedding dress in Turkey. Didn't think so..

But there is the common sense factor that must come into play.

Gcver2ver3
04-14-2008, 11:17 AM
99.9% of people out there are probably good people.

wrong...

baja
04-14-2008, 11:42 AM
But there is the common sense factor that must come into play.

Bad choice? Yes but that does not diminish her bravery.

That One Guy
04-14-2008, 12:03 PM
Have you never heard the phrase "there's a fine line between bravery and stupidity"?



If I go out and swim unprotected with sharks to show that we can live at one with the environment... and they eat my ass, was I brave or just stupid? I vote stupid.



And I said 99.9% are good people to concede an exaggeration to the guy who said everyone he's met has been a good person. There's definitely a group of people that are not very trustworthy and anyone from the west that would go for a second unprotected into the middle east is intentionally swimming with the sharks.



And I have all the compassion in the world for people when bad things happen. But think of what this girl just did to her family by being dumb enough to go unprotected into such an environment. She's a damn fool, she put her family through an outrageous amount of unnecessary heartache... so she should be ridiculed as a damn fool. When you praise these people as brave souls, embarking on a mission to save humanity blah blah blah... all you end up with is more attention seeking morons who will attempt similar acts in the name of art, world peace, [Insert other hippie value], etc...



In the end, it's survival of the fittest and this girl just removed herself from the gene pool. Dawinism-1, Stupid crazy hippies - 0

baja
04-14-2008, 12:08 PM
Have you ever hitch hiked cah412?

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 12:09 PM
Bad choice? Yes but that does not diminish her bravery.

I think we have a different standard for "bravery." I think that she was pushing the issue when she decided to hitchhike across Islamic countries in a freaking wedding dress. "Ms di Marineo was hitch-hiking from Milan to Israel and the Palestinian Territories with a fellow artist on their "Brides on Tour" project. Why? To promote world peace?

That's not bravery. That's ignorance.

If she wanted to promote world peace through her art, doing a "Brides on Tour" self-aggrandizing stunt is risky to say the least. She was playing with fire and she got burned.

I agree that it took "balls" to do this. But balls + ignorance does not = Bravery.

baja
04-14-2008, 12:15 PM
So the guy that dives on the grenade to save his friends is stupid not brave.

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 12:21 PM
So the guy that dives on the grenade to save his friends is stupid not brave.

Dude, that is totally different. Totally. It's so different I shouldn't even be explaining it to you.

baja
04-14-2008, 12:39 PM
Case # 1 guy gives life for something he believes in

Case #2 women gives life for cause she believes in

SAME THING

You just don't like the second cause and deem it unworthy of the sacrifice but to her it was important enough to risk her life as I am sure she knew the risk was there.

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 12:55 PM
Case # 1 guy gives life for something he believes in

Case #2 women gives life for cause she believes in

SAME THING

You just don't like the second cause and deem it unworthy of the sacrifice but to her it was important enough to risk her life as I am sure she knew the risk was there.

A guy throwing himself on a grenade is a split second decision and he's doing it because he is trying to save the lives of those around him. He knows he's going to die, yet he does it anyway. That is true bravery.

An artist dressed up in a wedding dress, trying to promote art and world peace, who, unfortunately, get's killed because of dubious decisions is not the same thing.

I think the world you might be looking for is "audacity." She definitely was audacious. She took a calculated risk and lost.

Yes, it's sad that it happened. Yes, the world is probably worse off because of her loss, but I can't get around the fact that there are many different ways to promote world peace and art, and dressing up like a bride and hitchhiking across territory that is hostile to women's rights to begin with, is just plain, well, dumb.

baja
04-14-2008, 01:00 PM
I contend that because of you programing and bias you are unable to see that these two examples are exactly the same thing.

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 01:04 PM
I contend that because of you programing and bias you are unable to see that these two examples are exactly the same thing.

Oh please. This is a classic case of attacking the poster and not dealing with the post.

baja
04-14-2008, 01:10 PM
Did I attack you.?

We could go ten pages on this and you will not see why these two examples of courage are very similar the big difference is as you pointed out one is an instantaneous reaction and the other is lived over and over. I could even make a case that the woman's act's are even more brave than the guy on the grenade.

alkemical
04-14-2008, 01:12 PM
I actually understand what baja is saying, but i doubt that helps his cause. :)

theAPAOps5
04-14-2008, 01:14 PM
I see both sides of the coin. She had incredible conviction to do what she did. But its just plain stupid to hitchhike through some of the areas she did. It has nothing to do with how gutsy some people are. There are places you just don't risk yourself in.

Istanbul isn't nearly as bad as other places I visited in Turkey but no way in hell you catch me hitching there. A girl who is non-muslim wearing a wedding dress hitching through the fire storm that is the middle east is like a white dude trying to hitch through Compton during the Rodney King riots. You are just playing with fire.

baja
04-14-2008, 01:19 PM
I actually understand what baja is saying, but i doubt that helps his cause. :)

It's all about conditioning. It is conditioning that cause some Muslims to see a suicide bomber as very brave while we see that as crazy.

Northman
04-14-2008, 01:20 PM
I see many of us on the Mane have travelled the Earth a great deal. Just about every place I go has a negative image, or bad press in the US.

Good ol' Propaganda.

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 01:24 PM
Did I attack you.?.

I contend that because of you programing and bias you are unable to see that these two examples are exactly the same thing.

We could go ten pages on this and you will not see why these two examples of courage are very similar the big difference is as you pointed out one is an instantaneous reaction and the other is lived over and over. I could even make a case that the woman's act's are even more brave than the guy on the grenade.

We'll just agree to disagree. You see bravery and I see audacity. You say potato and I say po-tat-toe.

baja
04-14-2008, 01:25 PM
I see both sides of the coin. She had incredible conviction to do what she did. But its just plain stupid to hitchhike through some of the areas she did. It has nothing to do with how gutsy some people are. There are places you just don't risk yourself in.

Istanbul isn't nearly as bad as other places I visited in Turkey but no way in hell you catch me hitching there. A girl who is non-muslim wearing a wedding dress hitching through the fire storm that is the middle east is like a white dude trying to hitch through Compton during the Rodney King riots. You are just playing with fire.

Nobody is saying the act was not ill advised. I took issue with the morons that said she got what she deserved. I think she was a very brave soul that had the courage to act on her convictions while these armchair posters who likely have never even hitch hiked to the corner store are calling her out. I'd take her over them in a tough spot any day. She had balls.

alkemical
04-14-2008, 01:29 PM
It's all about conditioning. It is conditioning that cause some Muslims to see a suicide bomber as very brave while we see that as crazy.

Well, yes - it is conditioning. I know for myself... the largest and first example that i had, which pried my eye open was when i first found the difference between "western" & "eastern" thinking.

From there, i realized how much further it all went - you are conditioned the moment you are born, due to how you are imprinted by your surroundings to create your POV, etc.

It's why i cringe when i see bad parents using kids as protesters with shirts that say "god hates f*gs" or "f*ck bush".

baja
04-14-2008, 01:34 PM
I contend that because of you programing and bias you are unable to see that these two examples are exactly the same thing.

<b>Until we wake up to it we are all victims of programing and the resulting bias</b>

We'll just agree to disagree. You see bravery and I see audacity. You say potato and I say po-tat-toe.

<b>That's OK. I just wanted to make the point about the woman's bravery.

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 01:42 PM
It's all about conditioning. It is conditioning that cause some Muslims to see a suicide bomber as very brave while we see that as crazy.

The "conditioning" of a person in a society that condones free will, free speech and protects a person's rights to have an opinion is much different than the true conditioning of a person who is taught hate from a very early age.

Right now, what we are doing, what we are saying, what we are thinking, what we are typing on our keyboards is protected. This post is a reflection of the society in which I was raised. At least I'm enlightened enough to value other people's opinions, and not try to suppress them if I don't agree.

You cannot say the same thing about most, if not all, of the Muslim peoples in today's world.

alkemical
04-14-2008, 01:46 PM
T-RJ - only if "YOU" are a master of language and not a slave to it. ;) Just a bit of ontology... ;)

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 01:49 PM
</b>



<b>That's OK. I just wanted to make the point about the woman's bravery.

Until we wake up to it we are all victims of programing and the resulting bias

You are demonstating free will by your very acknowledgement of the possibility of you and me being "programmed."

Your point about bravery is taken, as is my point. Ain't free speech beautiful?:sunshine:

baja
04-14-2008, 01:50 PM
We are all conditioned how to see the world by everyone we come in contact with from day one. The conditioning is so complete we do not even know we are being conditioned and many never realize it.

A great book explaining this is The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.

alkemical
04-14-2008, 01:52 PM
Until we wake up to it we are all victims of programing and the resulting bias

You are demonstating free will by your very acknowledgement of the possibility of you and me being "programmed."

Your point about bravery is taken, as is my point. Ain't free speech beautiful?:sunshine:

Free will could be an illusion done by our cognitive interpretations of our senses...since we only do, what we are written to do ;)

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 01:56 PM
Free will could be an illusion done by our cognitive interpretations of our senses...since we only do, what we are written to do ;)

Sounds like you've learned just enough philosophy to screw you up for the rest of your life.:wiggle:

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 01:56 PM
We are all conditioned how to see the world by everyone we come in contact with from day one. The conditioning is so complete we do not even know we are being conditioned and many never realize it.

A great book explaining this is The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.

No man is an island.

alkemical
04-14-2008, 02:03 PM
Sounds like you've learned just enough philosophy to screw you up for the rest of your life.:wiggle:

http://www.brainsturbator.com/site/comments/networks_bacteria_and_the_illusion_of_control/

alkemical
04-14-2008, 02:04 PM
No man is an island.

If man...is just a boat..a vessel - then why is that not like an island....

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 02:13 PM
If man...is just a boat..a vessel - then why is that not like an island....

Point being, no one is completely isolated. Hence, no man is an island.

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 02:15 PM
http://www.brainsturbator.com/site/comments/networks_bacteria_and_the_illusion_of_control/

Good stuff. So, what does this all tell you about... dare I say it... FREE WILL?

alkemical
04-14-2008, 02:27 PM
Good stuff. So, what does this all tell you about... dare I say it... FREE WILL?

I think it's much more illusionary than we think it is....

I really have observed my friends for the better part of a few years - and they really "do" what they are "going to do".

Even so much i found that two of my friends like women with the same facial shape (heart shaped face).

Crrraaaazzzyyy... ;)

That One Guy
04-14-2008, 03:27 PM
Damn people making me work... always gets in the way of good conversation.

Baja, the only way your example of the grenade applies is if this lady thought she would save people's lives and her hitchhiking was the only way to do it. That's the justification behind jumping on a grenade. This lady just picked hitchhiking as the avenue when there were plenty of other, safer options available. I have never been prevented from doing something, ANYTHING, due to fear. I've never been too scared to do anything. I have, however, been on the edge of a cliff and seen the sensibility in not jumping off it. This lady jumped off for ****s and grins and died. Who's to blame here? I wonder, now that she got the publicity she wanted for her cause... does anyone feel safer? Does anyone trust the locals more? Anyone wanna sign up to go hitchhiking across the middle east now?

I mean, that WAS her intent right... get publicity and let everyone know it was safe?

For a better analogy, if I jump out of a plane without a chute and expect God to deliver me to firm ground safely... and I end up in a splatter on the side of a mountain... was I brave for jumping when I new I had no chute or stupid for not realizing the chances of that turning out safe and beneficial?

Hotrod
04-14-2008, 03:30 PM
This is a rather odd thread.

OABB
04-14-2008, 03:34 PM
wow. just wow. Bravery? comparing an attention whore to a man that gives his life to save other's?

talk about throwing the word "irony" around incorrectly, what about the word "Bravery"?

now jumping on a grenade is brave. it is the highest act one can do. to give your life for others is a level of valor that cannot even be explained.

to play dress up and hitch-hike through turkey? are you serious?

I am astounded by some of the pussy talk here.

I'll just go ahead and say what we are all thinking to get it out in the open.

the girl deserved it. she was stupid and careless and got killed. that's what happens when you are a stupid attention whore.

and please don't anyone ever compare this act to diving on a ****ing grenade.

I feel one of my feminization of american men rants coming on again!

a ****ing grenade!

baja
04-14-2008, 03:38 PM
This is one of those new guys that have helped to turn this place into a high school play ground.

Hotrod
04-14-2008, 03:38 PM
wow. just wow. Bravery? comparing an attention whore to a man that gives his life to save other's?

talk about throwing the word "irony" around incorrectly, what about the word "Bravery"?

now jumping on a grenade is brave. it is the highest act one can do. to give your life for others is a level of valor that cannot even be explained.

to play dress up and hitch-hike through turkey? are you serious?

I am astounded by some of the p***Y talk here.

I'll just go ahead and say what we are all thinking to get it out in the open.

the girl deserved it. she was stupid and careless and got killed. that's what happens when you are a stupid attention whore.

and please don't anyone ever compare this act to diving on a ****ing grenade.

I feel one of my feminization of american men rants coming on again!

a ****ing grenade!


^5

Hotrod
04-14-2008, 03:45 PM
This is one of those new guys that have helped to turn this place into a high school play ground.

The lady was nuts Baja

OABB
04-14-2008, 03:45 PM
This is one of those new guys that have helped to turn this place into a high school play ground.

I resent this comment deeply.

baja
04-14-2008, 03:48 PM
I resent this comment deeply.

good

OABB
04-14-2008, 03:52 PM
This is one of those new guys that have helped to turn this place into a high school play ground.

what could be more high school than to throw a word around without thinking of the consequences of your speech in order to appear to be worldly?

do you not see that putting this women up on the same pedestal as a real hero, you are actually DEMEANING his actions?

High school is where you say things you don't mean to fit in.

I say things I mean and don't.

Do you know why Baja? Because the people on this site are intelligent enough to know the difference and that is why I am a PROUD member of the mane.

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 04:19 PM
I think it's much more illusionary than we think it is....

I really have observed my friends for the better part of a few years - and they really "do" what they are "going to do".

Even so much i found that two of my friends like women with the same facial shape (heart shaped face).

Crrraaaazzzyyy... ;)

Your talking about basic philosophical questions that have plagued mankind for centuries. Also, you are talking about the question of Free Will from a very Occidental standpoint.

And, so, what does that tell you?

(I'm trying to tie all this together, c'mon, help me here).

alkemical
04-14-2008, 04:22 PM
Your talking about basic philosophical questions that have plagued mankind for centuries. Also, you are talking about the question of Free Will from a very Occidental standpoint.

And, so, what does that tell you?

(I'm trying to tie all this together, c'mon, help me here).

it only tells me that, i just accept 'what it is' and have as much fun as possible! ;D

That One Guy
04-14-2008, 04:38 PM
it only tells me that, i just accept 'what it is' and have as much fun as possible! ;D

I'm not sure where you guys went as I don't speak the local language but I'll leave a light on incase you decide to come back...

Tombstone RJ
04-14-2008, 04:48 PM
it only tells me that, i just accept 'what it is' and have as much fun as possible! ;D

There's really no right or wrong answer here.

But, earlier in this thread baja started talking about "conditioning." I'm tying all of this together by telling you that your are a person of the West, or an Occidental thinking individual. Hence, you have been conditioned to ask yourself about such issues as "free will." Furthermore, you live in a society that questions the existence of Free Will. You are living in a society that posts articles about Networks, Bacteria, and the Illusion of Control.


Now, if you were living in say, China, or India, or an Oriental country that has not been too enfluenced by the West (Japan, for example) then these types of philosophical questions are just not relevant (or as relevant).

Conditioning... hmm... Let me ask you this: Would we be having this discussion if we grew up and lived in say, India? If you answer "yes" then you tend not to believe in free will, because if you answer "yes" there could be no other way for this conversation to go. It is pre-determined.

If you answer "no" you are leaning more toward free will. In other words, this conversation is not pre-determined, it is by choice, and we are in control.

theAPAOps5
04-14-2008, 05:20 PM
Ok this thread is quickly becoming my new favorite. I like a good debate lately and this topic is churning out great discussion.

Hotrod
04-14-2008, 05:21 PM
Ok this thread is quickly becoming my new favorite. I like a good debate lately and this topic is churning out great discussion.

Oh its churning out something but I think the jury is still out on what exactly :)

That One Guy
04-14-2008, 05:27 PM
Oh its churning out something but I think the jury is still out on what exactly :)

Whatever it is, I believe it may be portugese.

baja
04-14-2008, 05:44 PM
what could be more high school than to throw a word around without thinking of the consequences of your speech in order to appear to be worldly?

do you not see that putting this women up on the same pedestal as a real hero, you are actually DEMEANING his actions?

High school is where you say things you don't mean to fit in.

I say things I mean and don't.

Do you know why Baja? Because the people on this site are intelligent enough to know the difference and that is why I am a PROUD member of the mane.


when you turn 23 you will see the world differently.

alkemical
04-15-2008, 12:02 AM
There's really no right or wrong answer here.

But, earlier in this thread baja started talking about "conditioning." I'm tying all of this together by telling you that your are a person of the West, or an Occidental thinking individual. Hence, you have been conditioned to ask yourself about such issues as "free will." Furthermore, you live in a society that questions the existence of Free Will. You are living in a society that posts articles about Networks, Bacteria, and the Illusion of Control.


Now, if you were living in say, China, or India, or an Oriental country that has not been too enfluenced by the West (Japan, for example) then these types of philosophical questions are just not relevant (or as relevant).

Conditioning... hmm... Let me ask you this: Would we be having this discussion if we grew up and lived in say, India? If you answer "yes" then you tend not to believe in free will, because if you answer "yes" there could be no other way for this conversation to go. It is pre-determined.

If you answer "no" you are leaning more toward free will. In other words, this conversation is not pre-determined, it is by choice, and we are in control.

But you are only looking at in one context at a time: You have philosophical/religious, ethics and psychological. I can't say what i'd answer if I were a Hindu doctor, or a buddist lawyer. Or if I'd have grown up in Calcutta and went to University, instead of a poorer region of India, etc....

alkemical
04-15-2008, 12:03 AM
when you turn 23 you will see the world differently.

FNORD!

penguintheory
04-15-2008, 12:36 AM
zing

OABB
04-15-2008, 12:52 PM
when you turn 23 you will see the world differently.

what does this even mean? I am turning 30 in two months btw...

are you saying that as a younger man I might be more prone to stating ridiculous things like a woman hitch-hiking in a wedding dress is as brave as a man diving on a live grenade?

that is probably true.

but,

you are 59, what's your excuse?

sakuraba
04-15-2008, 09:47 PM
I just can't let this one go. Bravery. Hmmm. Equating a man who knowingly gives his life so that others may live. A man who could run, dive for cover, who could leave, but instead chooses to save his fellows by sacrificing his life. To say that is the same as a self aggrandizing, attention seeking "artist" hitch hiking is the same? The women did not risk her life knowingly. She did not know she would be murdered. She had hitch hiked often throughout Europe and was a typical Euroweenie from a sheltered upper middle class Italian family. She believed she could "handle" anything that might come up during her hitch hiking. She did not expect to get killed. Well she was an idiot who did get killed. She was not brave. She was not someone who knew what lay ahead and did it anyway.
She was an attention seeking twit, who was ill prepared for what can happen out in the world. Something was done to her. She did not act.
The man who jumps on a grenade, chooses and acts. The hitch hiker killed, is a victim of something they did not think would happen. One is brave. The other a statisic.

baja
04-15-2008, 09:59 PM
I knew this would end up this way.

They are both brave in my point and on that I'm out because you boys weaned on John Wayne movies will never see the truth in my position.

This conditioning is what makes the, 'America, love it or leave it' contingency possible.

Tombstone RJ
04-15-2008, 10:33 PM
I knew this would end up this way.

They are both brave in my point and on that I'm out because you boys weaned on John Wayne movies will never see the truth in my position.

This conditioning is what makes the, 'America, love it or leave it' contingency possible.

Your conditioning predisposes you to the same criticisims you heap upon posters who don't agree with you.

baja
04-15-2008, 10:48 PM
Your conditioning predisposes you to the same criticisms you heap upon posters who don't agree with you.

The thing you over look is we have the ability to see through our conditioning. Most of us don't (they say 87% never realize they have been conditioned to think the way they do) but we can reason our way out of conditioning. Examen what you believe is the place to start. i do not want to sound like a smart ass but i have had many revelations in examining what i had at some point excepted as true.

Tombstone RJ
04-15-2008, 10:48 PM
But you are only looking at in one context at a time: You have philosophical/religious, ethics and psychological. I can't say what i'd answer if I were a Hindu doctor, or a buddist lawyer. Or if I'd have grown up in Calcutta and went to University, instead of a poorer region of India, etc....

I'm talking about two issues here: conditioning (baja's favorite word) and free will.

My first point is as follows: According to the all-knowing baja, you have been conditioned to think the way you think. In other words, baja says you've been nurtured (conditioned) to think the way you think because of the society you've grown up in.

So, in other words, had you grown up in Calcutta, for example, would you be conditioned to question free will? Or, would the question of free will not be an issue with you? In other worlds, would you even care?

My second point is a simple, and basic, philosophical question. Moreover, it's a Western (occidental) thinking philosophical question. If you had grown up in Calcutta, would we be having this conversation right now? If you answer yes, please explain why you are answering "yes" to me. If you answer no, please explain why you are answering "no" to me.

In a way, you've already answered the question. In your above statement you say "I can't say what i'd answer if I were a Hindu doctor, or a buddist lawyer. Or if I'd have grown up in Calcutta and went to University, instead of a poorer region of India, etc...," So, again, what does that tell you about free will?

baja
04-15-2008, 10:51 PM
I don't know why you are calling me out. The fact we are conditioned by the society we are exposed to is pretty much accepted by most phycologists.

baja
04-15-2008, 10:55 PM
I older I get the more I realize how little i know. The piece I have come to know is that somewhere in all of our consciences' we know all there is to know. Learning to tap into that universal knowledge is the task before us all.

Tombstone RJ
04-15-2008, 11:06 PM
The thing you over look is we have the ability to see through our conditioning. Most of us don't (they say 87% never realize they have been conditioned to think the way they do) but we can reason our way out of conditioning. Examen what you believe is the place to start. i do not want to sound like a smart ass but i have had many revelations in examining what i had at some point excepted as true.

How very Frued of you.

It's so nice that you can criticise others here for their opinion and then conveniently side step your own flaws by claiming "I'm not conditioned anymore!"

You've also conveniently ignored my point that we are living in a free society that allows us to even discuss this issue without getting our head's chopped off.

If you want to claim my opinion on bravery is less valid than your opinion on bravery because I've been "conditioned" by society, then you sir, fall under the exact same scrutiny.

You are not more enlightened than me on what "Bravery" is or is not. So please, don't even go there.

baja
04-15-2008, 11:25 PM
I know you think I'm a smug ass and I know i make you angry, I also know we will never get past this point so because life is short i'm gonna bow out of this conversation. ;D

OABB
04-15-2008, 11:52 PM
I know you think I'm a smug ass and I know i make you angry, I also know we will never get past this point so because life is short i'm gonna bow out of this conversation. ;D




It's "Ironic" that the very man who defined "bravery" to us is bowing out.

baja
04-15-2008, 11:56 PM
Ya I guess I'm not as "brave" as you.

see ya...

OABB
04-16-2008, 12:07 AM
Ya I guess I'm not as "brave" as you.

see ya...

it's poster's that speak without thinking and are afraid to be challenged that have brought down this site.

what's the worst that could happen baja?

we might learn something from eachother, and at the very worst have a good conversation.


oh well.

baja
04-16-2008, 12:31 AM
OK last post.

I think on the face of it this woman should be seen as brave but because of the props, wedding dress, hitching hiking and Turkey she is judged as fool hardy and any acknowledgment that it took bravery to do what she did daily is discounted. It is assumed that she had it rosy until that fateful encounter. I hitch hiked all over the USA as a young man. I was strong and very capable of taking care of myself yet there were times that i was scared but I pushed through it so i see that as a brave act. I am sure there were times she feared for her well being but she pushed on to fulfill her commitment, how can this not be brave?

here is one definition of bravery; That quality of mind which enables one to encounter danger and difficulties with firmness, or without fear, or fainting of heart; valor; boldness; resolution.

That One Guy
04-16-2008, 07:05 AM
OK last post.

I think on the face of it this woman should be seen as brave but because of the props, wedding dress, hitching hiking and Turkey she is judged as fool hardy and any acknowledgment that it took bravery to do what she did daily is discounted. It is assumed that she had it rosy until that fateful encounter. I hitch hiked all over the USA as a young man. I was strong and very capable of taking care of myself yet there were times that i was scared but I pushed through it so i see that as a brave act. I am sure there were times she feared for her well being but she pushed on to fulfill her commitment, how can this not be brave?

here is one definition of bravery; That quality of mind which enables one to encounter danger and difficulties with firmness, or without fear, or fainting of heart; valor; boldness; resolution.

The simple act which may have once required you to overcome fear is nowadays a foolish decision. The world is changing very fast and there's things that even as a 22 year old, I wont let my son do some of the things I did growing up. That puts it as only 10-15 years ago but what was safe then, isn't so safe now. Now, if she'd done this in a civilized country then it would have been a different story... but it's much more likely she'd still be alive so we wouldn't even be talking about her. There's plenty of bad people in the US but I think her chances of survival here rather than a region conditioned to violence would be significantly higher.

alkemical
04-16-2008, 09:21 AM
I just can't let this one go. Bravery. Hmmm. Equating a man who knowingly gives his life so that others may live. A man who could run, dive for cover, who could leave, but instead chooses to save his fellows by sacrificing his life. To say that is the same as a self aggrandizing, attention seeking "artist" hitch hiking is the same? The women did not risk her life knowingly. She did not know she would be murdered. She had hitch hiked often throughout Europe and was a typical Euroweenie from a sheltered upper middle class Italian family. She believed she could "handle" anything that might come up during her hitch hiking. She did not expect to get killed. Well she was an idiot who did get killed. She was not brave. She was not someone who knew what lay ahead and did it anyway.
She was an attention seeking twit, who was ill prepared for what can happen out in the world. Something was done to her. She did not act.
The man who jumps on a grenade, chooses and acts. The hitch hiker killed, is a victim of something they did not think would happen. One is brave. The other a statisic.

brave Audio Help /breɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[breyv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, brav·er, brav·est, noun, verb, braved, brav·ing.
–adjective
1. possessing or exhibiting courage or courageous endurance.
2. making a fine appearance.
3. Archaic. excellent; fine; admirable.
–noun
4. a brave person.
5. a warrior, esp. among North American Indian tribes.
6. Obsolete.
a. a bully.
b. a boast or challenge.
–verb (used with object)
7. to meet or face courageously: to brave misfortunes.
8. to defy; challenge; dare.
9. Obsolete. to make splendid.
–verb (used without object)
10. Obsolete. to boast; brag.

alkemical
04-16-2008, 09:27 AM
I'm talking about two issues here: conditioning (baja's favorite word) and free will.

My first point is as follows: According to the all-knowing baja, you have been conditioned to think the way you think. In other words, baja says you've been nurtured (conditioned) to think the way you think because of the society you've grown up in.

So, in other words, had you grown up in Calcutta, for example, would you be conditioned to question free will? Or, would the question of free will not be an issue with you? In other worlds, would you even care?

My second point is a simple, and basic, philosophical question. Moreover, it's a Western (occidental) thinking philosophical question. If you had grown up in Calcutta, would we be having this conversation right now? If you answer yes, please explain why you are answering "yes" to me. If you answer no, please explain why you are answering "no" to me.

In a way, you've already answered the question. In your above statement you say "I can't say what i'd answer if I were a Hindu doctor, or a buddist lawyer. Or if I'd have grown up in Calcutta and went to University, instead of a poorer region of India, etc...," So, again, what does that tell you about free will?


No, i have already answered the question to the best of my POV, and through all my research of ontology - it states that i cannot answer a question on a full other POV, unless i have immersed myself in it. I spent some time with buddists and krisna's and free will is a question that is asked - but it's in a different context and like any demographic, it totally applies to many circumstances and factors.

The only issue of free will that i've run into really is the following:

I have seen both how free will doesn't exist, and how it does exist. I can see how i'm totally automated by genetics, and the only "free-will" option i have is how I "react" to the world around me. I have also created extreme changes in personality and habit with "will" (not willpower).

That's why, for me - i have no "definite". It's also part of the fun of it too (which is why i create ontological exercises (ie, reality tunnels) to play in).

sakuraba
04-16-2008, 12:13 PM
OK last post.

I think on the face of it this woman should be seen as brave but because of the props, wedding dress, hitching hiking and Turkey she is judged as fool hardy and any acknowledgment that it took bravery to do what she did daily is discounted. It is assumed that she had it rosy until that fateful encounter. I hitch hiked all over the USA as a young man. I was strong and very capable of taking care of myself yet there were times that i was scared but I pushed through it so i see that as a brave act. I am sure there were times she feared for her well being but she pushed on to fulfill her commitment, how can this not be brave?

here is one definition of bravery; That quality of mind which enables one to encounter danger and difficulties with firmness, or without fear, or fainting of heart; valor; boldness; resolution.

Yes, one can say that is "brave", just as the child who first chooses to sleep without the nightlight and "brave" the dark is brave in his own way. But, to say these are on par with a soldier who dives on a live hand grenade to save his fellows is idiocy.

baja
04-16-2008, 01:01 PM
Often the act of diving on the live hand grenade is a reaction more than a thought out decision while noble and admired by all that know of the incident a case can be made that the degree of bravery required to continue to do something day in and day out that scares the shiit out of you is greater.

So maybe this will be my last post. ;D

alkemical
04-16-2008, 01:08 PM
Why is it presumed that she "knew" she'd be safe?

sakuraba
04-16-2008, 01:13 PM
why is it presumed that she "knew" she was in mortal danger?

alkemical
04-16-2008, 01:19 PM
that's what i'm asking. Many people here automatically presumed (by language) that she was just as safe as can be, then which was illustrated how "stupid" she was to hitch-hike due to how dangerous it was.

Seems to be a bit-o'conflict to me there.

sakuraba
04-16-2008, 01:26 PM
The act of diving on a hand grenade, sacrificing oneself to save others is not anything like a natural "reaction". The natural "reaction" is to jump away. To get to safety, to run. The reflex is not to put oneself into danger. This is not taught nor is it our first reflex. It is a decision, even if made within seconds. To say "often a reaction" is to imply the jumper was interviewed after the act, and he replied that he just reacted and jumped. Sadly the person who jumps on the grenade is "often" killed.

sakuraba
04-16-2008, 01:29 PM
that's what i'm asking. Many people here automatically presumed (by language) that she was just as safe as can be, then which was illustrated how "stupid" she was to hitch-hike due to how dangerous it was.

Seems to be a bit-o'conflict to me there.

Well, she atrted her ttrek in Europe and was hitching all the way to Palestine. So she started in relative "safety". If hitch hiking anywhere can be considered safe. I'm sure we've all been exposed to enough popular media and anecdotes to question the wisdom of hitchhiking these days, through foreign lands, ignoring those foreign views on hitchhikers.

Tombstone RJ
04-16-2008, 01:55 PM
No, i have already answered the question to the best of my POV, and through all my research of ontology - it states that i cannot answer a question on a full other POV, unless i have immersed myself in it. I spent some time with buddists and krisna's and free will is a question that is asked - but it's in a different context and like any demographic, it totally applies to many circumstances and factors.

The only issue of free will that i've run into really is the following:

I have seen both how free will doesn't exist, and how it does exist. I can see how i'm totally automated by genetics, and the only "free-will" option i have is how I "react" to the world around me. I have also created extreme changes in personality and habit with "will" (not willpower).

That's why, for me - i have no "definite". It's also part of the fun of it too (which is why i create ontological exercises (ie, reality tunnels) to play in).

I think your missing the point about conditioning so I'll just let you in on a little secret: it has everything to do with your POV as you like to call it.

As for free will, you have to try to think outside your POV, to answer my questions. If you can't think outside your POV, the question of free will, whether it exists or not, is going to be a stumbling block for you.

As for your research on free will and you being "automated" by genetics, the next philosphical question you have to ask yourself is this: do you believe there is a ghost in the machine?

alkemical
04-16-2008, 02:00 PM
I think your missing the point about conditioning so I'll just let you in on a little secret: it has everything to do with your POV as you like to call it.

As for free will, you have to try to think outside your POV, to answer my questions. If you can't think outside your POV, the question of free will, whether it exists or not, is going to be a stumbling block for you.

As for your research on free will and you being "automated" by genetics, the next philosphical question you have to ask yourself is this: do you believe there is a ghost in the machine?

I suspect there always is an exception to the rule.

I'm sorry you don't like my answers, it's not that i'm missing your point - it's that you are missing mine ;)

alkemical
04-16-2008, 02:02 PM
Well, she atrted her ttrek in Europe and was hitching all the way to Palestine. So she started in relative "safety". If hitch hiking anywhere can be considered safe. I'm sure we've all been exposed to enough popular media and anecdotes to question the wisdom of hitchhiking these days, through foreign lands, ignoring those foreign views on hitchhikers.

Ya, and she sacrificed for her cause. I guess one person's brave is another's stupid - which brings us back to baja's point. ;)

sakuraba
04-16-2008, 02:15 PM
Ya, and she sacrificed for her cause. I guess one person's brave is another's stupid - which brings us back to baja's point. ;)

Her "sacrifice" if it can be considered as such was unwitting. In the other example - grenade, there is volition. To become an unwitting victim is not a good comparison to someone who makes a decision to sacrifice their life for others. Then we could say someone being killed in a car accident was brave.

alkemical
04-16-2008, 02:22 PM
Her "sacrifice" if it can be considered as such was unwitting. In the other example - grenade, there is volition. To become an unwitting victim is not a good comparison to someone who makes a decision to sacrifice their life for others. Then we could say someone being killed in a car accident was brave.

Go back and reread the definition of brave i posted, thanks!

OABB
04-16-2008, 02:25 PM
Ya, and she sacrificed for her cause. I guess one person's brave is another's stupid - which brings us back to baja's point. ;)
the point being made by sakuraba and myself is that while you could argue whether what this women did as brave, you CANNOT ARGUE that what that soldier did wasn't.

perhaps she had some level of courage, perhaps it was stupidity, or in all reality, it was probably a little bit of both mixed with a need for attention. otherwize why the wedding dress?

I could walk into watts with a I hate ****ers sign and argue how brave that was, but most people would say it is stupid to go into an area and openly defy the culture of the inhabitants and not expect to at least get your ass kicked.

a muslim nation in a white wedding dress? what ever courage she had was far outweighed by stupidity and an outright disregard for other peoples "conditioning" and culture.

but, no one, not even Baja with his ridiculous notion that diving on a live hand grenade is a reflex(thank you sakuraba for stating the obvious on that one) can persuade me to put these two "brave warriors" in the same sentence,

that is the point. you and baja are trying to convince me that it is my conditioning that makes me think DIVING ON A LIVE ****ING HAND GRENADE TO SAVE OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES is more brave than wearing a dress and being an idiot.

perhaps it isn't my conditioning that is wrong here?

maybe it's the conditioning of some people nowadays that would even have the ability to see that as one in the same. condition that programs one to think that because this woman died she deserves to be honored.

I say if you die as an idiot, than you should be remembered as an idiot, even a brave idiot.


but don't you dare compare the two. doing so makes you foolish, and disrespectfull to an actual brave man.

that is the point here.

sakuraba
04-16-2008, 02:31 PM
huzzah

alkemical
04-16-2008, 02:32 PM
the point being made by sakuraba and myself is that while you could argue whether what this women did as brave, you CANNOT ARGUE that what that soldier did wasn't.

perhaps she had some level of courage, perhaps it was stupidity, or in all reality, it was probably a little bit of both mixed with a need for attention. otherwize why the wedding dress?

I could walk into watts with a I hate ****ers sign and argue how brave that was, but most people would say it is stupid to go into an area and openly defy ter culture of the inhabitants and not expect to at least get your ass kicked.

a muslim nation in a white wedding dress? what ever courage she had was far outweighed by stupidity and an outright disregard for other peoples "conditioning" and culture.

but, no one, not even Baja with his ridiculous notion that diving on a live hand grenade is a reflex(thank you sakuraba for stating the obvious on that one) can persuade me to put these two "brave warriors" in the same sentence,

that is the point. you and baja are trying to convince me that it is my conditioning that makes me think DIVING ON A LIVE ****ING HAND GRENADE TO SAVE OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES is more brave than wearing a dress and being an idiot.

perhaps it isn't my conditioning that is wrong here?

maybe it's the conditioning of some people nowadays that would even have the ability to see that as one in the same. condition that programs one to think that because this woman died she deserves to be honored.

I say if you die as an idiot, than you should be remembered as an idiot, even a brave idiot.


but don't you dare compare the two. doing so makes you foolish, and disrespectfull to an actual brave man.

that is the point here.

A) I never said the soldier WASN'T. (Which goes back into how your put words in my mouth).

B) How is a wedding dress aiken to wearing a sign promoting a violent reaction? This is not applicable, it is not a valid comparison. (Hyperbole at best, absurdism at worst).


C) See A, and then you'd have to PROVE that NOT diving on a handgrenade in war with your fellow soldiers is NOT a reflex to some (genetic or psychological predisposition for "sacrifice").

D) You are full of ****.

sakuraba
04-16-2008, 02:35 PM
Also, she started this trek with another wedding dressed woman. She did not set out alone. They seperated near Turkey I believe. She was a bit less then the lone, brave soul walking into mortal danger for the sake of her "art". It is not the definition of brave that I am arguing here, but rather the equating her tragic victimization (however idiotic and preventable) with the self sacrifice of saving others.

OABB
04-16-2008, 02:49 PM
A) I never said the soldier WASN'T. (Which goes back into how your put words in my mouth).
B) How is a wedding dress aiken to wearing a sign promoting a violent reaction? This is not applicable, it is not a valid comparison. (Hyperbole at best, absurdism at worst).
C) See A, and then you'd have to PROVE that NOT diving on a handgrenade in war with your fellow soldiers is NOT a reflex to some (genetic or psychological predisposition for "sacrifice").

D) You are full of ****.


A)that was to baja, i should have been more clear

B)muslim cultures are very protective of their women and how they dress(you can look this up if you don't believe me) and they are less than positive in their feelings of western women.
so, to be a western women in a wedding dress in turkey can be a little upsetting for the locals

and if it wasn't, than why do you think what she did was brave?

c)this actually takes you out of the category of idiot into disrespectful ****.
Why is the burden of proof on me to tell you how what this man did was brave?

if there was ever a more clear cut act of bravery I am not even sure what it would be.

people like you that brush it off as a reflex or less than stellar act make me want to cry for this man's family and for the men that he saved.

do you think any of them think that what he did was just a reflex?

do you think that every new morning that they have had gifted to them is in vain because he just did what he was supposed to do?

was it a reflex for washington to cross the deleware in the middle of the icy night to surprise the hessians?

was it reflex that led Alexander the great head first into the heart of the persian army?

was it just a reflex that the allied infantry ran into a storm of bullets and mortar fire on the beaches of normandy?

you are pathetic.

you let this hero die in vain, and yet prop up some delusional attention whore.

how can you even do this with a straight face and a functional heart?

i like you clav, always have, I think you are very bright and usually dead on, but in this thread you couldn't be more wrong.


and deep down you know it.

alkemical
04-16-2008, 02:50 PM
A)that was to baja, i should have been more clear

B)muslim cultures are very protective of their women and how they dress(you can look this up if you don't believe me) and they are less than positive in their feelings of western women.
so, to be a western women in a wedding dress in turkey can be a little upsetting for the locals

and if it wasn't, than why do you think what she did was brave?

c)this actually takes you out of the category of idiot into disrespectful ****.
Why is the burden of proof on me to tell you how what this man did wasn't brave?

if there was ever a more clear cut act of bravery I am not even sure what it would be.

people like you that brush it off as a reflex or less than stellar act make me want to cry for this man's family and for the men that he saved.

do you think any of them think that what he did was just a reflex?

do you think that every new morning that they have had gifted to them is in vain because he just did what he was supposed to do?

was it a reflex for washington to cross the deleware in the middle of the icy night to surprise the hessians?

was it reflex that led Alexander the great head first into the heart of the persian army?

was it just a reflex that the allied infantry ran into a storm of bullets and mortar fire on the beaches of normandy?

you are pathetic.

you let this hero die in vain, and yet prop up some delusional attention whore.

how can you even do this with a straight face and a functional heart?

i like you clav, always have, I think you are very bright and usually dead on, but in this thread you couldn't be more wrong.


and deep down you know it.



OMG, here's my ****ing drama crown award.

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11331498/Pageant_Crown_Or_Tiara_From_Ciico_Jewelry.jpg

look, you wanted to talk about conditioning and biological control factors, don't go on a stupid rant because you don't like the answers.

OABB
04-16-2008, 02:58 PM
OMG, here's my ****ing drama crown award.

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11331498/Pageant_Crown_Or_Tiara_From_Ciico_Jewelry.jpg

look, you wanted to talk about conditioning and biological control factors, don't go on a stupid rant because you don't like the answers.

honey, that is your crown and you earned it. i wouldn't dream of taking that away from you. perhaps I should just neg rep you....

I never wanted to talk about conditioning or biological factors...

now you are putting words in my mouth.


go re-read my posts... I have done nothing but argue that you can't call this women brave and compare her to someone that actually is.

if that makes me a drama queen than fine, I will turn into a stone cold b**** if it means that I can keep idiots from letting heroes die in vain.

alkemical
04-16-2008, 03:00 PM
honey, that is your crown and you earned it. i wouldn't dream of taking that away from you. perhaps I should just neg rep you....

I never wanted to talk about conditioning or biological factors...

now you are putting words in my mouth.


go re-read my posts... I have done nothing but argue that you can't call this women brave and compare her to someone that actually is.

if that makes me a drama queen than fine, I will turn into a stone cold b**** if it means that I can keep idiots from letting heroes die in vain.



LOL, don't argue a point if you don't have one then. :)

OABB
04-16-2008, 03:22 PM
LOL, don't argue a point if you don't have one then. :)

what?

i may be one of the only ones who does in this whole thread...

you confused me with someone else and now you are going to puss out by making something up that isn't true?

go re-read my posts...i'll wait, you tell me where I have not consistantly made the same point and than you tell me if you agree or disagree.

i'm waiting.

Kaylore
04-16-2008, 03:27 PM
So then we all agree that this just a foolhardy move and nothing more, right?
;D :stirstir:

OABB
04-16-2008, 03:31 PM
So then we all agree that this just a foolhardy move and nothing more, right?
;D :stirstir:

I'm still waiting....

alkemical
04-16-2008, 03:41 PM
what?

i may be one of the only ones who does in this whole thread...

you confused me with someone else and now you are going to puss out by making something up that isn't true?

go re-read my posts...i'll wait, you tell me where I have not consistantly made the same point and than you tell me if you agree or disagree.

i'm waiting.

Actually YOU confused me with baja. ;)

OABB
04-16-2008, 04:09 PM
Actually YOU confused me with baja. ;)

I know, I admitted that in one of my first reposts to you, but I was still arguing with you over being called full of ****, your a,b,c,d, post, being called a drama queen, for stating that it was a reflex to jump on a grenade, and for your argument against sakuraba over the definition of bravery...


so, I will say it again...

don't compare what this women did to what this soldier did...

agreed?

alkemical
04-16-2008, 04:10 PM
I know, I admitted that in one of my first reposts to you, but I was still arguing with you over being called full of ****, your a,b,c,d, post, being called a drama queen, for stating that it was a reflex to jump on a grenade, and for your argument against sakuraba over the definition of bravery...


so, I will say it again...

don't compare what this women did to what this soldier did...

agreed?


Nope.

baja
04-16-2008, 04:56 PM
OMG, here's my ****ing drama crown award.

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11331498/Pageant_Crown_Or_Tiara_From_Ciico_Jewelry.jpg

look, you wanted to talk about conditioning and biological control factors, don't go on a stupid rant because you don't like the answers.

Josh cut your losses there is no intelligent life on this thread - they are incensed by a fictitious falling on a grenade. They can't get past emotion so they will never get that this is an example of their conditioning.

This really is my last post in this thread, I think. ;D

sakuraba
04-16-2008, 05:10 PM
It is apparent that some of you are so painfully conditioned by political correctness and an over abundance of estrogen, and so removed from the real physical world, that you no longer know what real bravery is.
No, it is not just a philosophical or semantic argument. Those who have chosen to stand up in the face of real physical evil and peril and put their lives on the line know the difference.
The ridiculous comparison of this woman and a soldier would never have been made let alone defended by anyone who actually participates in the real, physical world. It is easy to hide behind the intellect. But that is fear based. To smugly claim chauvinistic programming, is the refuge of the coward who rests easy in his soft, comfortable world, while others physical efforts make that possible. More's the pity.

OABB
04-16-2008, 05:37 PM
It is apparent that some of you are so painfully conditioned by political correctness and an over abundance of estrogen, and so removed from the real physical world, that you no longer know what real bravery is.
No, it is not just a philosophical or semantic argument. Those who have chosen to stand up in the face of real physical evil and peril and put their lives on the line know the difference.
The ridiculous comparison of this woman and a soldier would never have been made let alone defended by anyone who actually participates in the real, physical world. It is easy to hide behind the intellect. But that is fear based. To smugly claim chauvinistic programming, is the refuge of the coward who rests easy in his soft, comfortable world, while others physical efforts make that possible. More's the pity.

wow.

end of thread, imo. couldn't have said it better myself, and so I will not try.

looking over our posts, I can't help but feel that the world has gone mad.

we are actually defending the honor of a man who gave his life to save others over some quasi, failed artist attention whore.

our logic and conditioning are being challenged, and WE are accused of allowing emotion to cloud our thoughts, when it couldn't be more opposite.

baja, and clav aren't even aware that we have said that this women had some level of courage, but that we can't sit idly by and allow her questionable bravery to be compared to actual bravery.

it is sad that we have even had to defend this, it is so painfully obvious I'm afraid to even allow it's insanity to enter my mind.

I am harsh sometimes, and prone to hyperbole, but I am this way because I see a maddening world out there. one where the word genius, brilliant, hero, artist, and warrior are thrown around like they can just be attributed to anyone.

we have been so dumbed down and conditioned to think that these words are interchangeable adjectives -used like we are merely playing mad-libs.

when someone is actually brilliant, or a hero, they, and only they deserve that adjective.

I am sick of it being diluted, in order to cover up some flaw of character that people have.

I am average, i admit it. I think that this soldier did something that 99% of people wouldn't have-including myself.

when I look into my self, I am painfully aware that I would have probably ran away from that grenade. It is because of this, that I will defend this man even if it costs me my reputation because he is the exceptional exception to the rule.

idiots do stupid things and die all of the time, and even if they are brave, they are still idiots. dead idiots. they deserve a classification of their own.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this...

Am I crazy?

sakuraba
04-16-2008, 06:01 PM
We are fast becoming a world that's, " got electrolytes".

rugbythug
04-16-2008, 06:16 PM
Clav So by your line of thinking. Buckling a Child in a safty belt and Pulling a kid from in front of a speeding bus are equal acts of Heroism.

USMCBladerunner
04-16-2008, 06:30 PM
Josh cut your losses there is no intelligent life on this thread - they are incensed by a fictitious falling on a grenade. They can't get past emotion so they will never get that this is an example of their conditioning.

This really is my last post in this thread, I think. ;D

What is fictitious about the Sailor that received the Medal of Honor for falling on a grenade? Are you asserting that he didn't?

alkemical
04-17-2008, 09:58 AM
Clav So by your line of thinking. Buckling a Child in a safty belt and Pulling a kid from in front of a speeding bus are equal acts of Heroism.

argument via absurdism. It doesn't apply.

rugbythug
04-17-2008, 11:01 AM
argument via absurdism. It doesn't apply.

The Grown Up version of Nuh HUH

The difference between a man jumping on a grenade and a lady hitch hiking for peace is exactly the same as my analogy. It is the difference between the immenent and inevitable death, which you knowingly go to for other peoples benefit, and the hazy percieved threat of death that may or may not come to fruition.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 11:09 AM
The Grown Up version of Nuh HUH

The difference between a man jumping on a grenade and a lady hitch hiking for peace is exactly the same as my analogy. It is the difference between the immenent and inevitable death, which you knowingly go to for other peoples benefit, and the hazy percieved threat of death that may or may not come to fruition.


Not really.

rugbythug
04-17-2008, 11:39 AM
Living in Aethyr has skewed your perspectives.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 11:45 AM
Nope. But it's nice you can resort to ad hominem attacks. Look i've already explained it, i'm sorry you don't get it. I don't agree with you, and i won't agree with you.

OABB
04-17-2008, 12:37 PM
Nope. But it's nice you can resort to ad hominem attacks. Look i've already explained it, i'm sorry you don't get it. I don't agree with you, and i won't agree with you.

did you actually ever explain it, really?

alkemical
04-17-2008, 12:39 PM
yep.

baja
04-17-2008, 12:41 PM
Nope. But it's nice you can resort to ad hominem attacks. Look i've already explained it, i'm sorry you don't get it. I don't agree with you, and i won't agree with you.

Give it up my friend at this time they are unable to accept your reasoning.

baja
04-17-2008, 12:42 PM
This is the mentality that enables 'witches' to be killed.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 12:44 PM
This is the mentality that enables 'witches' to be killed.

There's a good Marylin Manson song about that.

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 12:52 PM
The point being - the ludicrous and idiotic equating of a sheltered Euroweenie, attention seeking twit who hitch hikes and gets killed, to a soldier who dives on a hand grenade to save his fellow soldiers. To say the "bravery" showed by both is on par..... those are the kind of people so delightfully free of the ravages of intelligence that the would burn witches.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 12:58 PM
The point being - the ludicrous and idiotic equating of a sheltered Euroweenie, attention seeking twit who hitch hikes and gets killed, to a soldier who dives on a hand grenade to save his fellow soldiers. To say the "bravery" showed by both is on par..... those are the kind of people so delightfully free of the ravages of intelligence that the would burn witches.

Nope. But it's nice you can resort to ad hominem attacks. Look i've already explained it, i'm sorry you don't get it. I don't agree with you, and i won't agree with you. .

baja
04-17-2008, 12:59 PM
The point being - the ludicrous and idiotic equating<b> of a sheltered Euroweenie, attention seeking twit</b> who hitch hikes and gets killed, to a soldier who dives on a hand grenade to save his fellow soldiers. <b> To say the "bravery" showed by both is on par.....</b> those are the kind of people so delightfully free of the ravages of intelligence that the would burn witches.

Now here's someone that has followed the thread with comprehension and is free of prejudice.

OABB
04-17-2008, 01:00 PM
Give it up my friend at this time they are unable to accept your reasoning.

the reasoning that it was a reflex or fictitious?(btw, how do you define reasoning?)

who is having the harder time understanding here?

we have said she had some level of courage, but nowhere near the level that a soldier diving on a grenade has.

you two have argued AGAINST this.(seriously, you have...I know it's crazy right?)

than, you both took your butthurt to insane levels that you are actually acting like spoiled little bitches.

why can't you just admit that you misspoke?

there is no need to protect yourself with more irrationalilty, you are just making yourself look worse with every stupid statement.

many here have stuck to facts and logic,

and other's-

you and the man (clav-who so boldly quips pseudo-intellectual statements in a realm impossible to challenge because he is afraid to actually have an intellegent conversation where he may be wrong). have spoke in hypotheticals.

why can't you two just take a second and listen to yourselves. this thread will go away if only you would come to terms with reality.

HOW CAN YOU ARGUE THIS?!?! HOW IN GOD'S NAME CAN YOU? SERIOUSLY?!?

you lover's are butthurt, but it will only continue to get worse for you, and the ramming will get so much harder and deeper that you will have to wear a maxipad in your pants to keep it all inside.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 01:06 PM
the reasoning that it was a reflex or fictitious?(btw, how do you define reasoning?)

who is having the harder time understanding here?

we have said she had some level of courage, but nowhere near the level that a soldier diving on a grenade has.

you two have argued AGAINST this.(seriously, you have...I know it's crazy right?)

than, you both took your butthurt to insane levels that you are actually acting like spoiled little b****es.

why can't you just admit that you misspoke?

there is no need to protect yourself with more irrationalilty, you are just making yourself look worse with every stupid statement.

many here have stuck to facts and logic,

and other's-

you and the man (clav-who so boldly quips pseudo-intellectual statements in a realm impossible to challenge because he is afraid to actually have an intellegent conversation where he may be wrong). have spoke in hypotheticals.

why can't you two just take a second and listen to yourselves. this thread will go away if only you would come to terms with reality.

HOW CAN YOU ARGUE THIS?!?! HOW IN GOD'S NAME CAN YOU? SERIOUSLY?!?

you lover's are butthurt, but it will only continue to get worse for you, and the ramming will get so much harder and deeper that you will have to wear a maxipad in your pants to keep it all inside.


Originally Posted by claviculasolomonis View Post
Nope. But it's nice you can resort to ad hominem attacks. Look i've already explained it, i'm sorry you don't get it. I don't agree with you, and i won't agree with you.

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 01:11 PM
All reasoning and logic are lost, this truly is the Planet of the Apes

OABB
04-17-2008, 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by claviculasolomonis View Post
Nope. But it's nice you can resort to ad hominem attacks. Look i've already explained it, i'm sorry you don't get it. I don't agree with you, and i won't agree with you.

pathetic.

I don't know why I even tried to help you realize what a douche bag you are.

I thought maybe you would see that you are hiding behind your supposed intellect and that you are actually just a giant pussy.

I liked you and was going to offer this service to you for nothing.

I could have spared you a life of misery, but oh well, you have made your frilly, lacy bed and now you must lie in it with your teddy.

enjoy talking to bumblebees.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 01:23 PM
pathetic.

I don't know why I even tried to help you realize what a douche bag you are.

I thought maybe you would see that you are hiding behind your supposed intellect and that you are actually just a giant p***Y.

I liked you and was going to offer this service to you for nothing.

I could have spared you a life of misery, but oh well, you have made your frilly, lacy bed and now you must lie in it with your teddy.

enjoy talking to bumblebees.


Hey that's fine. I'm able to say that i disagree with you, and give you some respect to your own opinion. Just do me one favor, stay classy!

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 01:51 PM
Now here's someone that has followed the thread with comprehension and is free of prejudice.

“A fool is wise in his eyes.” King Solomon

OABB
04-17-2008, 01:56 PM
I was arguing with baja, when you came in and said I was full of ****, and than called me a drama queen.

Respectfully disagreeing? no.

the truth is clav, and I will say it again, I shouldn't be arguing this.

normally I would agree to disagree with you(we have done this before, even using rep to go back and forth during a disagreement) and that is why I am so taken back by you this time.

even in your drama thread, I was the first to side with you, and I didn't even know what was going on.

here, you are really out of touch. And I am sorry If I got carried away, but come on...
HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW CRAZY THIS THREAD IS?

I will leave you alone and bow out of this thread if you just grant me one respectfull wish:

just explain to me how what this women did is on par with the soldier. no one word answers, no condensation, just an honest explanation for an old "friend".

I don't mind eating crow, I have done it before, and I f I am crazy here, I will gladly do it again. I don't care about being right for the sake of it. I believe one grows most by admitting when we are wrong.

and if you really respectfully disagreed with me- you would at least grant me an explanation.

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 02:01 PM
Nope..

alkemical
04-17-2008, 02:04 PM
I was arguing with baja, when you came in and said I was full of ****, and than called me a drama queen.

Respectfully disagreeing? no.

the truth is clav, and I will say it again, I shouldn't be arguing this.

normally I would agree to disagree with you(we have done this before, even using rep to go back and forth during a disagreement) and that is why I am so taken back by you this time.

even in your drama thread, I was the first to side with you, and I didn't even know what was going on.

here, you are really out of touch. And I am sorry If I got carried away, but come on...
HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW CRAZY THIS THREAD IS?

I will leave you alone and bow out of this thread if you just grant me one respectfull wish:

just explain to me how what this women did is on par with the soldier. no one word answers, no condensation, just an honest explanation for an old "friend".

I don't mind eating crow, I have done it before, and I f I am crazy here, I will gladly do it again. I don't care about being right for the sake of it. I believe one grows most by admitting when we are wrong.

and if you really respectfully disagreed with me- you would at least grant me an explanation.


My douchebaggeryness says i don't owe you anything. Oh and for the record, the drama thread was originally titled: "**** you mods" :) (And it wasn't to be serious)

Kaylore
04-17-2008, 02:04 PM
Her motives are what separate her from a soldier. She was an attention whore and an idiot. What happened to her was tragic, but she made a poor choice and it cost her her life. Diving on a grenade saves others. This saved no one and only hurt her family and friends.

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 02:17 PM
This reminds me of the time when Geordi got into this argument with Worf about Klingon bravery....

OABB
04-17-2008, 02:17 PM
My douchebaggeryness says i don't owe you anything. Oh and for the record, the drama thread was originally titled: "**** you mods" :) (And it wasn't to be serious)

thanks. for the record, it is your douchebageryness that keeps you form manning up out of FEAR.

at least be honest.

and I know your drama thread was meant to be funny now, but I didn't at first. Looking back, I wish I hadn't come to your supposed defense because you aren't worthy of it.

my mistake.

oh and for the record, you are a real weak man. Seriously, you are pathetic, and this thread should be remembered for the rest of your time here.

I hope deep down you are haunted by your lack of honor and manhood.

even on a bronco fan site, where you are virtually invisible, you still couldn't even feign bravery.

how much of a pussy does one have to be to bow out on a ****ing fan forum?

I gave you an out so many times, willing to let you keep some dignity, and you still couldn't do that.

I hope anyone and everyone that ever glanced on this thread will now see you for what you are, as I do.

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 02:22 PM
Now I know how Gandalf felt when he was dealing with Saruman.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 02:25 PM
thanks. for the record, it is your douchebageryness that keeps you form manning up out of FEAR.

at least be honest.

and I know your drama thread was meant to be funny now, but I didn't at first. Looking back, I wish I hadn't come to your supposed defense because you aren't worthy of it.

my mistake.

oh and for the record, you are a real weak man. Seriously, you are pathetic, and this thread should be remembered for the rest of your time here.

I hope deep down you are haunted by your lack of honor and manhood.

even on a bronco fan site, where you are virtually invisible, you still couldn't even feign bravery.

how much of a p***Y does one have to be to bow out on a ****ing fan forum?

I gave you an out so many times, willing to let you keep some dignity, and you still couldn't do that.

I hope anyone and everyone that ever glanced on this thread will now see you for what you are, as I do.

Oh it's quite obvious i'm not the one who lost dignity on this thread. I'm sorry you are ruled by emotional fires that allow irrational behaviour to derail a conversation. Why should i have a discussion with someone that just wants to communicate ad hominem on a topic? Not to mention, what's not "manly" about standing for what you believe in? What am i supposed to do, argue in circles since nobody wants to change their minds, isn't that a waste of time and a form of insanity - isn't that unproductive?

It seems to me, that for someone who is championing reason and ration, you don't set the bar very high.

rugbythug
04-17-2008, 02:27 PM
Nope. But it's nice you can resort to ad hominem attacks. Look i've already explained it, i'm sorry you don't get it. I don't agree with you, and i won't agree with you.

How exactly did I attack you? You state your own location as in the Aethyr.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 02:28 PM
How exactly did I attack you? You state your own location as in the Aethyr.

What's in a name.....

Kaylore
04-17-2008, 02:32 PM
What's in a name.....

Ether is better. Besides, I prefer the umbra.

OABB
04-17-2008, 02:33 PM
Oh it's quite obvious i'm not the one who lost dignity on this thread. I'm sorry you are ruled by emotional fires that allow irrational behaviour to derail a conversation. Why should i have a discussion with someone that just wants to communicate ad hominem on a topic? Not to mention, what's not "manly" about standing for what you believe in? What am i supposed to do, argue in circles since nobody wants to change their minds, isn't that a waste of time and a form of insanity - isn't that unproductive?

It seems to me, that for someone who is championing reason and ration, you don't set the bar very high.
21381

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 02:36 PM
thanks. for the record, it is your douchebageryness that keeps you form manning up out of FEAR.

at least be honest.

and I know your drama thread was meant to be funny now, but I didn't at first. Looking back, I wish I hadn't come to your supposed defense because you aren't worthy of it.

my mistake.

oh and for the record, you are a real weak man. Seriously, you are pathetic, and this thread should be remembered for the rest of your time here.

I hope deep down you are haunted by your lack of honor and manhood.

even on a bronco fan site, where you are virtually invisible, you still couldn't even feign bravery.

how much of a p***Y does one have to be to bow out on a ****ing fan forum?

I gave you an out so many times, willing to let you keep some dignity, and you still couldn't do that.

I hope anyone and everyone that ever glanced on this thread will now see you for what you are, as I do.

Perhaps Orangeandblueblooded IS trying to get through to you with humor. Because reason certainly has met a brick wall of retardation.

A retarded sense of proportion.

A retarded sense of reality.

A retarded sense of self.

rugbythug
04-17-2008, 02:36 PM
Never argue with an Idiot. From a distance no one can tell the difference

OABB
04-17-2008, 02:38 PM
What's in a name.....

"claviculasolomonis"

everything......

alkemical
04-17-2008, 02:38 PM
21381

Hey, it's not my fault you're wrong. That's your problem.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 02:38 PM
Never argue with an Idiot. From a distance no one can tell the difference

Which is why i have been polite.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 02:40 PM
Perhaps Orangeandblueblooded IS trying to get through to you with humor. Because reason certainly has met a brick wall of retardation.

A retarded sense of proportion.

A retarded sense of reality.

A retarded sense of self.

Oh i didn't realize attacking someone and calling them names and making absurd statements was humor, my mistake.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 02:41 PM
"

everything......



Quite right!

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 02:43 PM
Now I know how Obi Wan felt when Anakin couldn't see the error of his ways.

OABB
04-17-2008, 02:43 PM
Hey, it's not my fault you're wrong. That's your problem.

I have just asked you to explain. that is all, sweetheart.

at least baja had the ovaries to run away....

oh and to answer your question, it is very manly to take a stand...
but to take a stand by saying things like "nope." or "it's not my fault you are wrong." or "I already explained myself(when you never did) is not...

so again, how about an explanation, toots?

alkemical
04-17-2008, 02:45 PM
I have just asked you to explain. that is all, sweetheart.

at least baja had the ovaries to run away....

oh and to answer your question, it is very manly to take a stand...
but to take a stand by saying things like "nope." or "it's not my fault you are wrong." or "I already explained myself(when you never did) is not...

so again, how about an explanation, toots?

I already did ma'am.

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Oh i didn't realize attacking someone and calling them names and making absurd statements was humor, my mistake.

You don't strike me as someone that thin skinned. I'm sure you've encountered orangeandblueblooded before.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Now I know how Obi Wan felt when Anakin couldn't see the error of his ways.

It's not my issue that you don't. That's what i keep telling you. It's a free country and you have every right to be wrong and disagree.

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 02:47 PM
I already did ma'am.

nope

alkemical
04-17-2008, 02:49 PM
You don't strike me as someone that thin skinned. I'm sure you've encountered orangeandblueblooded before.


Oh i'm sorry, i guess maybe with reason and ration - i'd figure civility goes into a discussion.

Lemme know when i can start insulting people's families and kids next!

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 03:00 PM
Oh i'm sorry, i guess maybe with reason and ration - i'd figure civility goes into a discussion.

Lemme know when i can start insulting people's families and kids next!

On the last day of his life, on a rooftop in Ramadi, Navy SEAL Michael A. Monsoor was assigned to protect three SEAL snipers. When an insurgent's grenade lobbed from the street bounced off Monsoor's chest, he didn't hesitate. He yelled "Grenade!" and pounced on it even though he had a clear path of escape.

To say this is equal to the "bravery" of a woman who goes on a hitch hiking trip with another woman, dressed in wedding dresses across Europe to the Middle East; calling it art so that they could get sponsors; is an insult.

It is an insult to the family and friends of Monsoor.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 03:02 PM
On the last day of his life, on a rooftop in Ramadi, Navy SEAL Michael A. Monsoor was assigned to protect three SEAL snipers. When an insurgent's grenade lobbed from the street bounced off Monsoor's chest, he didn't hesitate. He yelled "Grenade!" and pounced on it even though he had a clear path of escape.

To say this is equal to the "bravery" of a woman who goes on a hitch hiking trip with another woman, dressed in wedding dresses across Europe to the Middle East; calling it art so that they could get sponsors; is an insult.

It is an insult to the family and friends of Monsoor.

Lemme know what that had to do with the quoted post.

Thanks!

(Or can i start insulting your wife and kids now, since ya know - it's ok to do so)

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 03:06 PM
Insult my wife and children, have at it. Knock yourself out. But please make it entertaining.

OABB
04-17-2008, 03:10 PM
Lemme know what that had to do with the quoted post.

Thanks!

(Or can i start insulting your wife and kids now, since ya know - it's ok to do so)

read the last line...

21383

here is his family....


(clav at thu funeral)
"hey guys, so sorry for your loss"
(family)
"thanks"
(clav)
"he was a real hero....what he did to save the lives of those fellow seals will be unmatched for all of time...although..."
(family)
"yes"
(clav)
"there was this woman who put on a wedding dress and hitch-hiked through turkey..."
(family)
"and...?"
(clav)
she was killed. She was a brave warrior who will sadly be missed for what her art meant to the world. it is truly a sad sad day for the world."
(Family begins to cry)
(clav)
"I know, I know, you guys can really understand what this woman's family must be going through."
(monsoor's mom, heavily crying passes out and falls to the floor)
(clav)
"when do we eat?"

alkemical
04-17-2008, 03:11 PM
Insult my wife and children, have at it. Knock yourself out. But please make it entertaining.

I was making a point, but you wanted to offer a deflection. Which is why this conversation won't go anywhere.

I wish you guys would just understand what i said: That I'm not trying to convert you, and i have my own POV on this matter. I don't care that you guys think differently, and have a different POV. I don't agree with you guys 100% on it (15% tops). But that's fine, that's life - it is what it is.

Now, that being said - you should realize i have no problem in continuing my game. :)

alkemical
04-17-2008, 03:13 PM
read the last line...

21383

here is his family....


(clav at thu funeral)
"hey guys, so sorry for your loss"
(family)
"thanks"
(clav)
"he was a real hero....what he did to save the lives of those fellow seals will be unmatched for all of time...although..."
(family)
"yes"
(clav)
"there was this woman who put on a wedding dress and hitch-hiked through turkey..."
(family)
"and...?"
(clav)
she was killed. She was a brave warrior who will sadly be missed for what her art meant to the world. it is truly a sad sad day for the world."
(Family begins to cry)
(clav)
"I know, I know, you guys can really understand what this woman's family must be going through."
(monsoor's mom, heavily crying passes out and falls to the floor)
(clav)
"when do we eat?"

Wake's always have the best grub.

OABB
04-17-2008, 03:27 PM
Wake's always have the best grub.

I give up.

you are lucky you are a well respected poster here, because if your name was broncos jamus or you had a post count of less than 300, you would be getting raked over the coals for spewing this garbage.

you know it and I know it, and everyone else knows it.

I hope that at least some of the weakness of your character has shown through here to everybody else.

funny how the guy who always tries to push the envelope with challenging discussions, couldn't even enter one with some newb....

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 03:40 PM
There they are boldly facing down death.


Danger is their business.


Footwax for peace.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 03:42 PM
I give up.

you are lucky you are a well respected poster here, because if your name was broncos jamus or you had a post count of less than 300, you would be getting raked over the coals for spewing this garbage.

you know it and I know it, and everyone else knows it.

I hope that at least some of the weakness of your character has shown through here to everybody else.

funny how the guy who always tries to push the envelope with challenging discussions, couldn't even enter one with some newb....

Oh i did, but because my answers weren't liked it turned into a flame war. There was no discussion, that's part of the misnomer. I had explained why i felt both were brave, it's not my fault nor my problem what other people think of my POV. I won't apologize though for not changing my opinion because it's not popular, or due to what some schmucks on the internet thinks about it. I am who I am.

If anyone's character has been exposed, it's been yours. I've been rather polite considering the "discussion" you tried to have. Maybe when you show some class, i'll be glad to enter into an exchange of ideas and discussion.

Have a good day.

C.S.

alkemical
04-17-2008, 03:43 PM
There they are boldly facing down death.


Danger is their business.


Footwax for peace.

Peace sells, but who's buying.....

OABB
04-17-2008, 03:45 PM
There they are boldly facing down death.


Danger is their business.


Footwax for peace.

brave. brave warriors....

has she been awarded the medal of honor yet?

OABB
04-17-2008, 03:54 PM
Oh i did, but because my answers weren't liked it turned into a flame war. There was no discussion, that's part of the misnomer. I had explained why i felt both were brave, it's not my fault nor my problem what other people think of my POV. I won't apologize though for not changing my opinion because it's not popular, or due to what some schmucks on the internet thinks about it. I am who I am.

If anyone's character has been exposed, it's been yours. I've been rather polite considering the "discussion" you tried to have. Maybe when you show some class, i'll be glad to enter into an exchange of ideas and discussion.

Have a good day.

C.S.

Actually, again, using fact and reason(it works if you work it) it was you that first called me names. you called me full of **** before I ever "attacked" you.

it was you that first showed no class.

I tried to be classy, even called you a friend, and said all I wanted was an explanation, and your only response was to tell me that when I defended you in the drama thread, I WAS WRONG.

very classy.

just explain. again for my dense skull that can't seem to understand.

just humor me and explain...


please.

when you do that, I will show you class, because at this point you are nothing but a pussy running from a fight. you don't deserve class.

please, prove me wrong. please. i beg you.

just explain one last time PLEASE!

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 03:55 PM
–verb (used with object)
7. to meet or face courageously: to brave misfortunes.
8. to defy; challenge; dare.

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 03:56 PM
–verb (used with object)
7. to meet or face courageously: to brave misfortunes.
8. to defy; challenge; dare.

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 04:00 PM
–verb (used with object)
7. to meet or face courageously: to brave misfortunes.
8. to defy; challenge; dare.


I see it now, she WAS brave!

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 04:02 PM
Yeah.....it's the exact same thing! I see it! I see it!

baja
04-17-2008, 04:03 PM
I was making a point, but you wanted to offer a deflection. Which is why this conversation won't go anywhere.

I wish you guys would just understand what i said: That I'm not trying to convert you, and i have my own POV on this matter. I don't care that you guys think differently, and have a different POV. I don't agree with you guys 100% on it (15% tops). But that's fine, that's life - it is what it is.

Now, that being said - you should realize i have no problem in continuing my game. :)

I tried to warn you josh - this is the "America love it or leave it" mentality.

They have completely lost sight of the original point that the women was also brave. Like a mad dog with a pull toy. LOL

baja
04-17-2008, 04:05 PM
Read this thread to know why this poll turned out this way


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=2193

OABB
04-17-2008, 04:06 PM
I tried to warn you - this is the "America love it or leave it" mentality.

They have completely lost sight of the original point that the women was also brave. Like a mad dog with a pull toy. LOL

I want you to read through my posts and count the times I have said she was brave.

You two are insane!

YOU are missing the ****ing point.

I have said she was brave, just that you can't compare it to his level you dimwit!

welcome to the thread!

OABB
04-17-2008, 04:08 PM
Read this thread to know why this poll turned out this way

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=67563

actually I think your behaivior in this thread demonstrates it better.

you don't listen, you talk without thinking, you were the first to attack anyone, and you were the first to run away.

what do you think hurts the mane more.

intellegent debate, or insane posting without regard for reality?

baja
04-17-2008, 04:10 PM
I want you to <b>read through my posts and count the times I have said she was brave.</b>

You two are insane!

YOU are missing the ****ing point.

I have said she was brave, just that you can't compare it to his level you dimwit!

welcome to the thread!

Well than we are in agreement why has this thread gone 8 pages. Could your emotion have anything to do with it?

alkemical
04-17-2008, 04:13 PM
I tried to warn you josh - this is the "America love it or leave it" mentality.

They have completely lost sight of the original point that the women was also brave. Like a mad dog with a pull toy. LOL

hehehe :)

Can you tell i was bored today :)

OABB
04-17-2008, 04:14 PM
Well than we are in agreement why has this thread gone 8 pages. Could your emotion have anything to do with it?

yes. I am reacting emotionally to your stupidity!

in order for us to agree you just need to say that some woman hitch-hiking in turkey and accidently getting killed is NOT AS BRAVE as a soldier DIVING ON A ****ING GRENADE TO SAVE LIVES!

SERIOUSLY!

that is why it's eight pages, because you can't see how inane your posts are.

Is it AS brave? yes or no?

not was it brave at all, but AS BRAVE as the soldier?

answer the question once and for all

alkemical
04-17-2008, 04:16 PM
yes. I am reacting emotionally to your stupidity!

in order for us to agree you just need to say that some woman hitch-hiking in turkey and accidently getting killed is NOT AS BRAVE as a soldier DIVING ON A ****ING GRENADE TO SAVE LIVES!

SERIOUSLY!

that is why it's eight pages, because you can't see how inane your posts are.

Is it AS brave? yes or no?

not was it brave at all, but AS BRAVE as the soldier?

answer the question once and for all


Yes

OABB
04-17-2008, 04:19 PM
Yes

thank you.


for the record, Clavicula Solomonis said it was as brave for a women hitch-hiking in europe as a soldier diving on a grenade to save lives.

OABB
04-17-2008, 04:20 PM
Baja?

alkemical
04-17-2008, 04:23 PM
thank you.


for the record, Clavicula Solomonis said it was as brave for a women hitch-hiking in europe as a soldier diving on a grenade to save lives.


Yep, she was as brave as this guy (who also probably was an attention whore)

http://metaversed.com/files/images/tiananmen-square-tanks.jpg

Or this guy:

http://www.eso-garden.com/images/uploads_bilder/philosophy_ghandi_4.jpg

or maybe this guy:

http://www.blackcrayon.com/image/HenryDavidThoreau.jpg

and him too:

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2006/0601/SOMLK0109.jpg

OABB
04-17-2008, 04:30 PM
Yep, she was as brave as this guy (who also probably was an attention whore)

http://metaversed.com/files/images/tiananmen-square-tanks.jpg

Or this guy:

http://www.eso-garden.com/images/uploads_bilder/philosophy_ghandi_4.jpg

or maybe this guy:

http://www.blackcrayon.com/image/HenryDavidThoreau.jpg

and him too:

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2006/0601/SOMLK0109.jpg

wow. just wow.
you credit this woman with the bravery of a soldier who recieved the medal of honor...

you say she added to the world in the same way that gandhi or MLK did?

You have managed to degrade every great man or women in our history with one bold ridiculous statement.

You should have quit while you were behind.

this is disgusting.

did she organize a nationwide boycott for her nations independance?

did she organize a march across the south and take a bullet in the brain like mlk for standing up for the rights of all men?

she hithchiked through europe in a wedding dress...

you make me sick.

you take so much away from actual heroes with a statement like this.

I guess in order to reach you, I shouldn't have tried reason, logic or insults, I should have put on a dress...


MLK? Gandhi?

ARE YOU ****ING SERIOUS?

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 04:35 PM
As brave as Picard facing the Borg.

OABB
04-17-2008, 04:39 PM
baja?...

OABB
04-17-2008, 04:55 PM
21395

like the great Rosa Parks, Natalie Holloway refused to move from her seat, and her heroic stance will be remembered for all time.

baja
04-17-2008, 05:27 PM
yes. I am reacting emotionally to your stupidity!

in order for us to agree you just need to say that some woman hitch-hiking in turkey and accidently getting killed is NOT AS BRAVE as a soldier DIVING ON A ****ING GRENADE TO SAVE LIVES!

SERIOUSLY!

that is why it's eight pages, because you can't see how inane your posts are.

Is it AS brave? yes or no?

not was it brave at all, but AS BRAVE as the soldier?

answer the question once and for all

Here's the part you have missed it was never about quantity they are both brave that is the point. She was being trashed here and i pointed out she was brave.

Truth is without knowing the details there is no way to answer your question. Soldier could have been reacting without time to consider the consequences and the women could have been terrorized every day and yet bravely continued with her quest. there is no way to know with the details we have to work with. But your emotions and conditioning have led to to make assumption after assumption until you and others had build a real hero out of a fictitious example and an idiot out of the women neither of which can possibly be known with the information at hand.

Kaylore
04-17-2008, 05:44 PM
Yep, she was as brave as this guy (who also probably was an attention whore)

http://metaversed.com/files/images/tiananmen-square-tanks.jpg

Or this guy:

http://www.eso-garden.com/images/uploads_bilder/philosophy_ghandi_4.jpg

or maybe this guy:

http://www.blackcrayon.com/image/HenryDavidThoreau.jpg

and him too:

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2006/0601/SOMLK0109.jpg

LOL

OABB
04-17-2008, 06:52 PM
Here's the part you have missed it was never about quantity they are both brave that is the point. She was being trashed here and i pointed out she was brave.

Truth is without knowing the details there is no way to answer your question. Soldier could have been reacting without time to consider the consequences and the women could have been terrorized every day and yet bravely continued with her quest. there is no way to know with the details we have to work with. But your emotions and conditioning have led to to make assumption after assumption until you and others had build a real hero out of a fictitious example and an idiot out of the women neither of which can possibly be known with the information at hand.

here are the facts.

she died by doing something stupid.

he chose to dive on the grenade after it hit him square in the chest in order to save people's lives.

I never made an assumption. you did. who cares if she was terrified every second, her level of bravery STILL DOESN"T MATCH HIS..

even if he was so conditioned and did it out of a reflex (as YOU assumed) his level of bravery is still more than hers.

we have all argued the facts.

choosing to die to save others is infinately braver than doing something dangerous and accidently dying.

those are the facts....

no assumptions.

baja
04-17-2008, 06:59 PM
I used the grenade story as an example how did it become a real story?

Who is to say what she was doing was stupid?

Hitchhiking in Turkey is easy. Sometimes it may be customary to contribute a few Lira, but for some hitchhikers this is unheard of. Looking like western backpacker will get you a lot of attention when traveling outside the major tourist areas. Often, the first vehicle to pass will stop for you (sometimes even if they are going the opposite direction!). Lifts with big trucks are the most common since cars may be very full. Turkish truck drivers are generally very friendly and helpful, but may not speak a word of English. Knowing some German words may help.

[edit]Cities
http://en.hitchwiki.org/Turkey

Do you see how your conditioning has caused you to make untrue assumptions

And one more time we were not talking about who was more brave just that she is brave.

As I pointed out several pages ago we will never resolve this discussion because you can't follow along without interjecting you emotion and bias. There is no particular soldier in this comparison but now he has a life and a story.

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 07:01 PM
Here's the part you have missed it was never about quantity they are both brave that is the point. She was being trashed here and i pointed out she was brave.

Truth is without knowing the details there is no way to answer your question. Soldier could have been reacting without time to consider the consequences and the women could have been terrorized every day and yet bravely continued with her quest. there is no way to know with the details we have to work with. But your emotions and conditioning have led to to make assumption after assumption until you and others had build a real hero out of a fictitious example and an idiot out of the women neither of which can possibly be known with the information at hand.

You are the one working from assumption and conditioning. She was not terrorized every day. She was having a fun, bohemian hitch hiking trip. Check her site, her photos and her blog. If you had done any research rather than just reverting to your knee jerk reactions and conditioning, you'd know that. You'd also know that the soldier was not working from reflex. Only one of the four soldiers dived on the grenade. It is not a reflex.

It is not part of our "wiring " to dive on a hand grenade. It is a man made object. It is not a natural physical phenomenon. So it is not a natural reflex.

It is also not something that the military teaches you to do. Quite the opposite. So it is not a trained reflex.

It is not a reflex at all.

baja
04-17-2008, 07:09 PM
e had no problems hitch-hiking in Turkey, but there are a few peculiarities I'd like to point out. I'd also like to share some wonderful experiences.

First of all, the sign for flagging down a car (this goes for domu�es as well) is holding your hand out and with you palm down waving it up and down from the wrist.

Advertisement

I've only hitched in the East, where people tend to be friendlier and tend to look at foreigners less as walking money bags, but rather visitors and travellers.

I've run into drivers asking to be paid for the ride, and although they always told me up front, you never know.

Lone female travellers should think twice about hitch-hiking, even though Turkey is a secular, west-oriented country, you can run into many of the stereotypes (in this aspect, the most important being "Western women are all -------, khm... easy lays.") about the West that you will find in Middle Eastern / Muslim countries.

Now that I'm done with the obligatory warnings, I can move on to the good part, and tell you a story or two about hitching in Eastern Turkey.

I started out from Artvin in the morning with a Slovenian friend, heading to Kars, where we were hoping to make it out to Ani by nightfall.

We first got picked up by a small pickup truck, but the drivers told us they can't take us all the way (it was a good 300 km stretch, so no wonder), only 30 or so kilometers.

When we covered the distance, they started frantically explaining something about honey, as far as I could make out with my basic Turkish knowledge. Then they turned off the road into the forest on a small dirt road.

Before we could figure out what was happening, we reached a small clearing, with thousands of beehives. It turned out that they were honey-makers, laid out a breakfast of fresh bread, fresh honey and hot tea on a blanket, and took us back to the road once we were finished.

And that's just a small example of the hospitality that you're likely to run into in Turkey. A friend of mine was picked up by a Kurdish guy somewhere in the South-east of Turkey, ended up taken to his destination, being invited to spend the night at the family's place and given CDs with Kurdish music in mp3 format in the morning.

OABB
04-17-2008, 07:14 PM
I used the grenade story as an example how did it become a real story?

Who is to say what she was doing was stupid?

Hitchhiking in Turkey is easy. Sometimes it may be customary to contribute a few Lira, but for some hitchhikers this is unheard of. Looking like western backpacker will get you a lot of attention when traveling outside the major tourist areas. Often, the first vehicle to pass will stop for you (sometimes even if they are going the opposite direction!). Lifts with big trucks are the most common since cars may be very full. Turkish truck drivers are generally very friendly and helpful, but may not speak a word of English. Knowing some German words may help.

[edit]Cities
http://en.hitchwiki.org/Turkey

Do you see how your conditioning has caused you to make untrue assumptions?

nope.

You were the one that compared her bravery to the grenade guy, remember?

I wouldn't even be here had you not said that.

That wasn't my "conditioning" that called you out,as it probably wasn't when everyone else did as well.

why couldn't you just say "I misspoke".

Baja, you know you did. I promise, I won't brow beat you or fight you if you just admit it.

I am "engaged" with you because you won't.

it is your "conditioning" that makes you think that admitting you made a mistake means you are weak.

Baja, if you would just admit it, you would show more courage than you would know.

You would also overcome your conditioning.

baja
04-17-2008, 07:15 PM
The soldier falling on the grenade story was a made up example by me how does it come to have particulars.

using the article posted that the comments about her stupidity were being taken from there is no way to tell what her daily experience was, not enough information. I was taking issue with those comments calling her an attention whore and stupid when I chose to interject that she was brave. things took off from there. the rest came form the collective fantasy of the posters here.

baja
04-17-2008, 07:20 PM
What I said is she could be more brave than the factious soldier and i said that because we do not know enough of either the girls story and certainly not the made up example's nonexistent story.


Like I said about a 100 posts ago there will be no resolution about this and now I'm burnt out on continuing. so see ya - for real this time.

OABB
04-17-2008, 07:22 PM
I used the grenade story as an example how did it become a real story?

Do you see how your conditioning has caused you to make untrue assumptions

And one more time we were not talking about who was more brave just that she is brave.

As I pointed out several pages ago we will never resolve this discussion because you can't follow along without interjecting you emotion and bias. There is no particular soldier in this comparison but now he has a life and a story.


YOU WERE the one who compared her, even if it is a fictitious soldier, it is still just as offensive.

do you not see that YOU were the one who started the comparison?

maybe this is why you are confused?

but you did, baja, and I can't let you off the hook for that one.

she was brave, I purposely farted on my first date with my fiance to break the ice, that was brave too...but not on par with this real or fictitous soldier.

this debate will end right now if you just say that you made a mistake by comparing her to this real soldier, or even the fake one.

Just admit it and I will go away.

OABB
04-17-2008, 07:24 PM
What I said is she could be more brave than the factious soldier and i said that because we do not know enough of either the girls story and certainly not the made up example's nonexistent story.


Like I said about a 100 posts ago there will be no resolution about this and now I'm burnt out on continuing. so see ya - for real this time.

You are almost there...
just a little more.
she could never be as brave...


Never...

she had some chutzpah, I will give you that and have many times, but just man up already.

Bronx33
04-17-2008, 07:32 PM
chutzpah = blind foolish misguided well intended stupidity?

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 07:32 PM
[QUOTE=baja;1945365]Case # 1 guy gives life for something he believes in

Case #2 women gives life for cause she believes in

SAME THING



You did not say she [B]could[B] be as brave. You say it is the same.

You brought up the fictional soldier.

You have been working from assumptions and conditioning for this entire thread. I have been working from the facts of her website, her photos her blog.
I have used a real example of a real soldier so as not to be working from assumptions. Just arguing the facts. Try it some time. If your conditioning will allow.

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 08:23 PM
Pippa Bacca defines bravery!

While hitch hiking through Turkey on her way to Israel to promote peace and textiles, she found herself in a situation hopefully none of us have to face. She was with a group of Turkish women when a Turkisk male erection landed in their midst. Not thinking of herself but of saving the lives of others, she bravely dove on the erection.
Sadly, this was her last act. She did not survive this. Her self sacrifice and bravery will always be remembered, as will her paper dolls cut from leaves.

I think we can all learn something from her courage and sacrifice.

OABB
04-17-2008, 08:24 PM
Pippa Bacca defines bravery!

While hitch hiking through Turkey on her way to Israel to promote peace and textiles, she found herself in a situation hopefully none of us have to face. She was with a group of Turkish women when a Turkisk male erection landed in their midst. Not thinking of herself but of saving the lives of others, she bravely dove on the erection.
Sadly, this was her last act. She did not survive this. Her self sacrifice and bravery will always be remembered, as will her paper dolls cut from leaves.

I think we can all learn something from her courage and sacrifice.


OMG!

I just peed laughing...

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 08:27 PM
veni vidi vici - Ceasar after defeating Pharnaces2 in Turkey

veni vedi I got raped and killed - Pippa in Turkey

OABB
04-17-2008, 08:28 PM
veni vidi vici - Ceasar after defeating Pharnaces2 in Turkey

veni vedi I got raped and killed - Pippa in Turkey

you are going to hell, my friend.

sakuraba
04-17-2008, 08:44 PM
Pippa moments before jumping and saving the lives of the other women.

You can see that she has made the decision to do the noble thing.

"For he who sheds his blood with me this day, shall ever my brother be"

alkemical
04-18-2008, 09:28 AM
LOL

:)

alkemical
04-18-2008, 09:52 AM
“Be the change you want to see in the world.”

Mahatma Gandhi quotes (Indian Philosopher, internationally esteemed for his doctrine of nonviolent protest, 1869-1948)
Similar Quotes. About: Change quotes, Responsibility quotes, Generosity quotes, Action quotes. For: T-Shirt quotes.
Add to Chapter...


“The best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in the service of others.”

Mahatma Gandhi quotes (Indian Philosopher, internationally esteemed for his doctrine of nonviolent protest, 1869-1948)
Similar Quotes. About: Social service quotes.
Add to Chapter...

sakuraba
04-18-2008, 11:30 AM
Scooby dooby doo - Frank Sinatra

OABB
04-18-2008, 01:57 PM
“Be the change you want to see in the world.”

Mahatma Gandhi quotes (Indian Philosopher, internationally esteemed for his doctrine of nonviolent protest, 1869-1948)
Similar Quotes. About: Change quotes, Responsibility quotes, Generosity quotes, Action quotes. For: T-Shirt quotes.
Add to Chapter...


“The best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in the service of others.”

Mahatma Gandhi quotes (Indian Philosopher, internationally esteemed for his doctrine of nonviolent protest, 1869-1948)
Similar Quotes. About: Social service quotes.
Add to Chapter...
21403

"YOU FAIL"

-orangeandblublooded


here's one for you clav....

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."
Mahatma Gandhi

alkemical
04-18-2008, 02:02 PM
21403

"YOU FAIL"

-orangeandblublooded


here's one for you clav....

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."
Mahatma Gandhi

If you understand the context of violence in which Hindu related peoples view violence (it's not "just" a physical act), he is correct.

"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." - Copy to Clipboard
-- Mahatma Gandhi

OABB
04-18-2008, 02:25 PM
If you understand the context of violence in which Hindu related peoples view violence (it's not "just" a physical act), he is correct.

"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." - Copy to Clipboard
-- Mahatma Gandhi

I do, I was referring to your feigned aloofness, how you have tried to hide behind intellect and by pretending to be a heel to cover up your fear.

you have been so afraid to ever even explain yourself. you have pulled the childlike "I shouldn't have to explain myself" so many times, which is so sad because it is so pussy.

I have given you outs, been respectful, been humorous, and even harsh, and through it all you have been a coward.

so, if what you feel in your heart is really that she is as brave as a real hero, than quit trying to play a "game" as you have said.

quit hiding from me and tell me why this is so.

and if you don't feel this way, quit being such a pussy and pretending to be a heel and play a game to cover up your impotence.


explain yourself, I beg you.

perhaps your superior intellect will show me the error of my inane ways.

I know you think you are smarter than me, so prove it.

and quit being a bitch.

alkemical
04-18-2008, 03:13 PM
I do, I was referring to your feigned aloofness, how you have tried to hide behind intellect and by pretending to be a heel to cover up your fear.

you have been so afraid to ever even explain yourself. you have pulled the childlike "I shouldn't have to explain myself" so many times, which is so sad because it is so p***Y.

I have given you outs, been respectful, been humorous, and even harsh, and through it all you have been a coward.

so, if what you feel in your heart is really that she is as brave as a real hero, than quit trying to play a "game" as you have said.

quit hiding from me and tell me why this is so.

and if you don't feel this way, quit being such a p***Y and pretending to be a heel and play a game to cover up your impotence.


explain yourself, I beg you.

perhaps your superior intellect will show me the error of my inane ways.

I know you think you are smarter than me, so prove it.

and quit being a b****.


First off, i have explained it. You didn't like my answers, so you think i didn't answered. But i have, and have stated why. The only game i'm playing is trolling, yet you keep coming back under the bridge.... Oh, and by the way calling people names - isn't respectful and shows your hypocrisy.

I don't think i'm smarter than you (that's your own projection of the matter), i I see things DIFFERENTLY than you do. I'm comfortable enough with my own view point, and my stance that it doesn't effect me that people think differently. I'm not sure why you are so enraged with my opinion of the matter. Why does it bother you that i have my own view point and i won't change my mind, due to what i perceive on the issue? Why is that a threat to you?

Relax man, spark an L and drink a beer. I'm allowed to have my own opinion on this.

sakuraba
04-18-2008, 03:31 PM
Why does it bother you that i have my own view point and i won't change my mind, due to what i perceive on the issue? Why is that a threat to you?

Relax man, spark an L and drink a beer. I'm allowed to have my own opinion on this.

Like I said....she's a witch, that's my opinion so burn her. - Guy in Salem
__________________

alkemical
04-18-2008, 03:38 PM
Like I said....she's a witch, that's my opinion so burn her. - Guy in Salem
__________________

“Where God has his church the Devil will have his chapel”

Spanish Proverb quotes

sakuraba
04-18-2008, 03:47 PM
"Le Diable rit avec nous"

2nd para FFL

alkemical
04-18-2008, 03:53 PM
Got a devil's haircut in my mind

OABB
04-18-2008, 03:56 PM
First off, i have explained it. You didn't like my answers, so you think i didn't answered. But i have, and have stated why. The only game i'm playing is trolling, yet you keep coming back under the bridge.... Oh, and by the way calling people names - isn't respectful and shows your hypocrisy.

I don't think i'm smarter than you (that's your own projection of the matter), i I see things DIFFERENTLY than you do. I'm comfortable enough with my own view point, and my stance that it doesn't effect me that people think differently. I'm not sure why you are so enraged with my opinion of the matter. Why does it bother you that i have my own view point and i won't change my mind, due to what i perceive on the issue? Why is that a threat to you?

Relax man, spark an L and drink a beer. I'm allowed to have my own opinion on this.

humor me and explain it again, or show me the post where you did because I can't find it.

and the definition of bravery doesn't count...


and to answer your question, I am enraged that you would prop up a darwin award winner with a real hero...do you not understand how offensive that is.

your trolling is weak at best, considering you have been a part of this thread from the virtual beginning.
If you think you are upsetting me with your cuteness you aren't, you are upsetting me with you cowardliness.

please, just humor me, explain it.

sakuraba
04-18-2008, 04:00 PM
"What he said" - Guy in the trenches Western Front WW1

alkemical
04-18-2008, 04:02 PM
humor me and explain it again, or show me the post where you did because I can't find it.

and the definition of bravery doesn't count...


and to answer your question, I am enraged that you would prop up a darwin award winner with a real hero...do you not understand how offensive that is.

your trolling is weak at best, considering you have been a part of this thread from the virtual beginning.
If you think you are upsetting me with your cuteness you aren't, you are upsetting me with you cowardliness.

please, just humor me, explain it.


So you want to OMIT the definition for the word brave, in order to explain what bravery is? Must be like your hypocrisy of "respecting" someone, but calling them names and being hostile.

I gave you my explanation and even one with pictures!

Look, it's ok. You don't understand my POV, and i can't explain it so you will. it's just how it is. Why are you angry and threatened by it?

sakuraba
04-18-2008, 04:14 PM
Bark bark - little dog on the corner

OABB
04-18-2008, 04:16 PM
So you want to OMIT the definition for the word brave, in order to explain what bravery is? Must be like your hypocrisy of "respecting" someone, but calling them names and being hostile.

I gave you my explanation and even one with pictures!

Look, it's ok. You don't understand my POV, and i can't explain it so you will. it's just how it is. Why are you angry and threatened by it?

your definition isn't adequate because we have ALL established that she was brave to some degree.


BUT, what you have stated, even Baja retracted a bit, is that it is the same level as this soldier.

Me, and most people in this thread have tried to point out that choosing certain death to save other's is not the same as putting yourself in a dangerous situation where you "may" get hurt.

certain death+saving lives does not = putting yourself ina dangerous country.

that is the nature of this thread.

I apologize If I hurt your feelings or was disrespectfull, but it angers me that you don't see this.

and I CRAVE an understanding because I normally respect you.

what reason could you possibly have to disagree.

a definition or pictures aren't enough.


JUST TELL ME WHY THEY ARE THE SAME.


or better yet, tell me how they are different.

I just want to talk, because I feel that these disagreements are important in today's world.

Many people agree and they don't even know it. PErhaps we do, perhaps we don't...

but a satisfying discussion can end in disagreement, but, It should require an adequate reason.

if we were in high school debate class, the teacher would ask you to explain yourself more.

Just explain it, and I will go away, seriously. end of thread,

just tell me

please?

pretty please?

sakuraba
04-18-2008, 05:04 PM
your definition isn't adequate because we have ALL established that she was brave to some degree.


BUT, what you have stated, even Baja retracted a bit, is that it is the same level as this soldier.

Me, and most people in this thread have tried to point out that choosing certain death to save other's is not the same as putting yourself in a dangerous situation where you "may" get hurt.

certain death+saving lives does not = putting yourself ina dangerous country.

that is the nature of this thread.

I apologize If I hurt your feelings or was disrespectfull, but it angers me that you don't see this.

and I CRAVE an understanding because I normally respect you.

what reason could you possibly have to disagree.

a definition or pictures aren't enough.


JUST TELL ME WHY THEY ARE THE SAME.


or better yet, tell me how they are different.

I just want to talk, because I feel that these disagreements are important in today's world.

Many people agree and they don't even know it. PErhaps we do, perhaps we don't...

but a satisfying discussion can end in disagreement, but, It should require an adequate reason.

if we were in high school debate class, the teacher would ask you to explain yourself more.

Just explain it, and I will go away, seriously. end of thread,

just tell me

please?

pretty please?

He's got a point. How can you equate the two as the same.

I also don't know why people keep assuming she knew she was in mortal danger. She didn't.

She started in Italy with another woman. Two people hitch hiking across Europe. When she hit Turkey she was alone.

She did not think she would be killed.

The soldier knew he would be killed.

To not grasp this is astounding.

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 04:40 PM
Anybody remember this stupid idiot? Lately arguing with the idiots on this site brought back found memories of this monumental battle with the idiots. Much like the Spartans at Thermopylae we were outnumbered by the idiot hordes, but our bravery fought back wave after wave.

Archer81
06-22-2009, 04:54 PM
I dont view her as brave, I view her as suicidally misguided. Two women hitch hiking across Europe to go to one of the most repressive areas on earth to make a statement about world peace? I am sorry she was murdered, but the odds of her completeing this trip was slim to none. Something was going to happen somewhere, and obviously happened in Turkey.

:Broncos:

sakuraba
06-22-2009, 05:01 PM
I dont view her as brave, I view her as suicidally misguided. Two women hitch hiking across Europe to go to one of the most repressive areas on earth to make a statement about world peace? I am sorry she was murdered, but the odds of her completeing this trip was slim to none. Something was going to happen somewhere, and obviously happened in Turkey.

:Broncos:

This is SPARTA ! Well done sir.