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Dukes
04-12-2008, 12:44 AM
I thought this was worth sharing.

http://http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003612429_ethanol11.html

The hard truth about ethanol
By Matt Crenson

The Associated Press

NEW YORK — America is drunk on ethanol.

Farmers in the Midwest are sending billions of bushels of corn to refineries that turn it into billions of gallons of fuel. Automakers in Detroit have already built millions of cars, trucks and SUVs that can run on it, and are committed to making millions more. In Washington, politicians have approved generous subsidies for companies that make ethanol.

And just last week, President Bush arranged with Brazil's President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva for their countries to share ethanol-production technology.

The problem is, ethanol really isn't ready for prime time. The only economical way to make ethanol right now is with corn, which means the burgeoning industry is literally eating away at America's food supply. And most analysts conclude its environmental benefits are questionable.

Proponents acknowledge the drawbacks of corn-based ethanol, but they think it can help wean America off imported oil and help the country make the necessary and difficult transition to an environmentally and economically sustainable future.

Q: What is ethanol?

A: Ethanol essentially is moonshine. Virtually all the ethanol produced in the United States comes from corn that is fermented and then distilled to produce pure grain alcohol.

Q: Will my car run on it?

A: Any car will burn gasoline mixed with a small amount of ethanol. But cars must be equipped with special equipment to burn fuel that is more than about 10 percent ethanol. All three of the major U.S. automakers are already producing flex-fuel cars that can run on either gasoline or E85, a mix of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. Thanks to incentives from the federal government, they have committed to having half the cars they produce run on either E85 or biodiesel by 2012.

Q: How fast is ethanol production growing?

A: According to the Renewable Fuels Association, a trade group, ethanol production has doubled in the past three years, reaching nearly 5 billion gallons in 2006. With 113 ethanol plants operating and 78 more under construction, the country's ethanol output is expected to double again in less than two years.

Q: Is ethanol better than gasoline?

A: For all the environmental and economic troubles it causes, gasoline turns out to be a remarkably efficient fuel. The energy required to pump crude out of the ground, refine it and transport it is about 6 percent of the energy in the gasoline itself.

Ethanol is much less efficient, especially when it is made from corn. Just growing corn requires expending energy — plowing, planting, fertilizing and harvesting all require machinery that burns fossil fuel.

Modern agriculture relies on large amounts of fertilizer and pesticides, both of which are produced by methods that consume fossil fuels. Then there's the cost of transporting the corn to an ethanol plant, where the fermentation and distillation processes consume yet more energy.

Finally, there's the cost of transporting the fuel to filling stations. And because ethanol is more corrosive than gasoline, it can't be pumped through relatively efficient pipelines but must be transported by rail or tanker truck.

In the end, even the most generous analysts estimate that it takes the energy equivalent of 3 gallons of ethanol to make 4 gallons of the stuff.

Q: But aren't there environmental benefits to ethanol?

A: If you make ethanol from corn, the environmental benefits are limited. When you consider the greenhouse gases that are released in the growing and refining process, corn-based ethanol is only slightly better than gasoline. Growing corn also requires the use of pesticides and fertilizers that cause soil and water pollution.

The environmental benefit of corn-based ethanol is felt mostly around the tailpipe. When blended into gasoline in small amounts, ethanol causes the fuel to generate less carbon monoxide.

Q: What about ethanol's economic benefits?

A: Making ethanol is so profitable, thanks to government subsidies and continued high oil prices, that plants are proliferating throughout the Corn Belt. Iowa, the nation's top corn-producing state, is projected to have so many ethanol plants by 2008 it could easily find itself importing corn in order to feed them.

But ethanol is profitable only when oil is costly and corn is cheap. The 51 cent-a-gallon federal subsidy doesn't hurt. But oil prices are off from last year's peaks, and corn has doubled in price over the past year, from about $2 to $4 a bushel, thanks mostly to demand from ethanol producers.

High corn prices are causing social unrest in Mexico, where the government has tried to mollify angry consumers by slapping price controls on tortillas. U.S. consumers will soon feel the effects as well. Virtually everything Americans put in their mouths starts as corn. There's corn flakes, corn chips, corn nuts and hundreds of other processed foods. There's corn in the occasional pint of beer and shot of whiskey. And don't forget high-fructose corn syrup, a very widely used sweetener.

Animals eat more than half of the corn produced in America. On Friday the Agriculture Department announced that beef, pork and chicken will soon cost consumers more thanks to the demand of ethanol for corn.

Many agricultural economists believe rising demand for feed corn has squeezed the supply — and boosted the price — of not just sweet corn but also wheat, soybeans and several other crops.

Last year ethanol production used 12 percent of the U.S. corn harvest, but it replaced only 2.8 percent of the nation's gasoline consumption.

"If we were to adopt automobile fuel-efficiency standards to increase efficiency by 20 percent, that would contribute as much as converting the entire U.S. grain harvest into ethanol," Brown said.

Q: Isn't there a better renewable fuel substitute for gasoline?

A: Most experts think it will take an array of renewable-energy technologies to replace fossil fuels. Ethanol would be more beneficial both environmentally and economically if scientists could figure out how to make it from a nonfood plant that could be grown without the need for fertilizers, pesticides and other inputs. Researchers are currently working on methods to do just that, making ethanol from the cellulose in a wide variety of plants, including poplar trees, switchgrass and cornstalks.

But plant cellulose is more difficult to break down than the starch in corn kernels. There are also technical hurdles related to separating, digesting and fermenting the cellulose fiber. Though it can be done, making ethanol from cellulose-rich material costs at least twice as much as making it from corn.

Q: How much more efficient would cellulosic ethanol be compared to corn ethanol?

A: Studies suggest that cellulosic ethanol could yield at least four to six times the energy expended to produce it. It would also produce less greenhouse gas emissions than corn-based ethanol because much of the energy needed to refine it could come not from fossil fuels, but from burning other chemical components of the very same plants that contained the cellulose.

Q: How much gasoline could cellulosic ethanol replace?

A: The U.S. Department of Energy estimates that the United States could produce more than a billion tons of cellulosic material annually for ethanol production, from switchgrass grown on marginal agricultural lands to wood chips and other waste produced by the timber industry. In theory, that material could produce enough ethanol to substitute for about 30 percent of the country's oil consumption.

Q: What would be the economic effects?

A: If farmers find it more profitable to grow switchgrass rather than corn, soy or cotton, the price of those commodities is bound to rise in response to falling supply.

"You can produce a lot of ethanol from cellulose without competing with food," said Wallace Tyner, an agricultural economist at Purdue University. "But if you want to get half your fuel supply from it, you will compete with food agriculture."

There may also be ecological impacts. The government currently pays farmers not to farm about 35 million acres of conservation land, mostly in the Midwest. Those fallow tracts provide valuable habitat for wildlife, especially birds. Though switchgrass is a good home for most birds, if it became profitable to grow it or another energy crop on conservation land, then some species could decline.

Q: Will ethanol solve all of our problems?

A: Ethanol is certainly a valuable tool in our efforts to address the economic and environmental problems associated with fossil fuels. But even the most optimistic projections suggest it can only replace a fraction of the 140 billion gallons of gasoline that Americans consume every year. It will take a mix of technologies to achieve energy independence and reduce the country's production of greenhouse gases.

If we're serious about achieving energy independence and mitigating global warming, experts say, one of those solutions must be conservation.

footstepsfrom#27
04-12-2008, 05:06 AM
Problem solved...Kentucky...the new Saudi Arabia ;D

http://www.apptrav.com/popcorn-sutton.jpg

cutthemdown
04-12-2008, 06:15 AM
seems like there is a lot of negatives to Ethanol. I'm not convinced it's a effecient idea but maybe it's good for farmers to make the extra money. I don't know this is a tough issue.

Dukes
04-12-2008, 09:19 AM
seems like there is a lot of negatives to Ethanol. I'm not convinced it's a effecient idea but maybe it's good for farmers to make the extra money. I don't know this is a tough issue.

I think it would be much more effective and efficient if it was easier to transport.

Spider
04-12-2008, 11:27 AM
Problem solved...Kentucky...the new Saudi Arabia ;D

http://www.apptrav.com/popcorn-sutton.jpg

Break, one nine, how 'bout you
Smoky Mountain Smokey
You got your ears on

You got your Smoky Mountain Smokey
Bring it on

Ten four, you got the one Blue Trooper
What say we pull the plug
On these old picture takers
Back it out into town for a short short

A big ten four on that short short
Blue Trooper

Oh, mercy day there, Blue Trooper
Did you see that eighteen wheel hot rod
That just went by us in a gust
Of chicken feathers

Ah, yeah, a big ten four
On them chicken feathers
You musta been doing a hundred for sure
Busted every tube in my picture taker
I's holding it in my hand too
Mercy sakes, that smarts
Flat curl your fingernails backwards

Ten four, let's get the bubble gum popping



And the hammer down
Pray for that eighteen wheeler there
Doing a hundred for sure
Now you just back it down, boy, we gotcha

I'm the Kentucky moonrunner
Ten four, smoky bear
I don't stop for no slow cop
Not even a pair

Chickens and old moonshine
Is a mighty heavy load
Got the hammer down on this
Big A-town road

Now you lookie here
Kentucky moonrunner, boy
You in enough trouble already
Going double double nickels
Without having moonshine in the
Bottom of that rig under them chickens
Now you pull that old
Eighteen wheeler over to the side
Blue Trooper, give me your twenty

Hey, negatory, I'll let you have
Two fives and some loose change

Get the peanut butter out
Of your ears, Blue Trooper
I want your location

I'm eyeballing your tail lights
'Bout a half mile behind you
Mercy day, Smoky Mountain Smokey
It's a snowing, biggest flakes I ever seen

Negatory, Blue Trooper
That ain't snow, that's chicken feathers
Off that eighteen wheeler
You can always tell snow
From the chicken feathers
Snow don't gum up your
Wiper blades something awful
Now, moonrunner, boy
You pull it over now

I'm the Kentucky moonrunner
Ten four, smoky bear
Put the hammer down to big A-town
And be my looking chair

'Cause you can't catch me
No matter how you try
My moonshine holler is down
And gone bye bye

By gosh, Smoky Mountain Smokey
I done put out a call for reinforcements

Ten four, let's get every
Smokey in Tennessee after him
He's doing a hundred and twenty, for sure
We gotta stop that boy
Before he gets to Georgia
Ho, watch out there, Blue Trooper
They done coming out of
The chicken coop up here

Well, negatory, tell them boys
To keep them rigs parked

Blue Trooper, I don't
Mean no chicken coop, boy
I mean a chicken coop
He done let them chickens loose outta that rig
Oh, mercy day, they drunk on that moonshine
You ever try to dodge three hundred
Jaywalking, drunk New England white rocks

Aw, mercy, big ten four
On them plastic Sunday dinners
They all over me

Lord a mercy
Now they've started laying eggs

Ten four on them hundred proof egg yolks
You reckon these old snow treads
Are gonna hang on these slippery eggs

I don't know but I got a half dozen
Sunny side up on my hood
Blue Trooper, what's your twenty now
Come on back

I'm the four wheel Western omelette
That just passed you

Come on, breaker, moonrunner
The fun's over
Now, boy, we got fifty-eight Smokeys
Thirty-six county mounties
Twelve local yokels
Nineteen bears in the air
Twenty-two meter maids
Two ballistic missiles, Richard Petty
Kojak and two-hundred soused
White rock chickens on your tail, boy
Now you gonna back that old rig down or not

Hey, we too late
That old moonrunner done
Crossed that Georgia line

Aw, ten four
Break for a Georgia Smokey

Ten four, back door
We got this old Kentucky moonrunner
On the side for sure
There he was streaking
Through the Georgia night
And he done forgot about
That one White Knight

Hundred and four miles over speed limit
That old boy's gonna grow old in the pokey
Come on down from that Tennessee, boys
And we'll do us some celebrating
Have us some fried chicken and scrambled eggs
And some of that Kentucky moonrunner tea
How about it

Rohirrim
04-12-2008, 11:45 AM
Nothing is going to change now, even if ethanol is completely useless and stupid. The loop of subsidy to rich grower to politician and back to subsidy, has already been established. Once those loops get built, they never get undone.

How does it feel to know that taxes on you are paying to drive up your food prices? Ha!

Dukes
04-12-2008, 12:03 PM
Yeah it is pretty idiotic Roh

kappys
04-13-2008, 10:20 AM
I dont know. I like the idea of being able to fill myself up and my car at the same stop on a little pure corn liquor.

Arkie
04-13-2008, 11:35 AM
Problem solved...Kentucky...the new Saudi Arabia ;D

http://www.apptrav.com/popcorn-sutton.jpg

Tennessee joins with Kentucky to form the new opec.

Once two strangers climbed on rocky top,
Lookin for a moonshine still.
Strangers aint come back from rocky top,
Guess they never will.
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/sioncampus/08/28/campus.chronicles/p1_manning.jpg
Corn wont grow at all on rocky top,
Dirts too rocky by far.
Thats why all the folks on rocky top
Get their corn from a jar.
http://smokeys-trail.com/peyton/a_rockytop.jpg

Bronco_Beerslug
04-13-2008, 04:54 PM
Let's see, costs me 33% less for each tank and I lose approx. 2.5 miles per gallon so I'm experiencing about a net savings every time I fill up of about $18-$20 (I have a 26 gallon tank). Ethanol isn't some kind of savior but is another move in the right direction, especially when moving to biomass ethanol plants.

And none of my gas money (used in my vehicle) goes to the Middle East now.

Dukes
04-13-2008, 08:08 PM
Let's see, costs me 33% less for each tank and I lose approx. 2.5 miles per gallon so I'm experiencing about a net savings every time I fill up of about $18-$20 (I have a 26 gallon tank). Ethanol isn't some kind of savior but is another move in the right direction, especially when moving to biomass ethanol plants.

And none of my gas money (used in my vehicle) goes to the Middle East now.

Except it takes as much energy to make Ethanol as it puts out. Oh and it takes gasoline to make and transport your fuel, considering it can't be transported via pipeline.

If the government wasn't subsidizing the **** out of it, and covering over 50 cents per gallon of the overall cost it wouldn't be 33% less.

But hey, whatever makes you feel good Slug;)

Bronco_Beerslug
04-13-2008, 08:14 PM
Except it takes as much energy to make Ethanol as it puts out.Incorrect. The process is now more refined and advanced than years past.

Oh and it takes gasoline to make and transport your fuel, considering it can't be transported via pipeline. That will be changing as the process advances. Bio diesel buses, trucks and tractors are already here as well as ethanol.

If the government wasn't subsidizing the **** out of it, and covering over 50 cents per gallon of the overall cost it wouldn't be 33% less. What would you rather subsidize, the Iraqi invasion and occupation or ethanol? I can't think of anything better to subsidize than home grown renewable and alternative energies, can you?

Bronco_Beerslug
04-13-2008, 08:19 PM
Georgia Plant Is First for Making Ethanol from Waste

by Kathleen Schalch (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=2101129)
Listen Now (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:NPR.Player.openPlayer%2816019184,%2016019164, %20null,%20NPR.Player.Action.PLAY_NOW,%20NPR.Playe r.Type.STORY,%20%270%27%29) [4 min 36 sec] add to playlist (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:NPR.Player.openPlayer%2816019184,%2016019164, %20null,%20NPR.Player.Action.ADD_TO_PLAYLIST,%20NP R.Player.Type.STORY,%20%270%27%29)

<!-- START TOP RESOURCE POSITION --><!-- START INSET COLUMN --><!-- END INSET COLUMN --><!-- START STORY CONTENT -->All Things Considered (http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=2), November 5, 2007 · Not all ethanol is created equal. Scientists say the real hope for curbing greenhouse gas emissions and pursuing energy independence lies in cellulosic ethanol. That's ethanol that could be brewed from things like corn stalks, straw, wood chips — things we normally throw away.

Companies have been racing to find cost-effective ways to make this form of ethanol. A company called Range Fuels in Georgia is scheduled to break ground Tuesday on the world's first plant for making cellulosic ethanol.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coskata, which also uses thermochemical technology (http://earth2tech.com/2008/01/13/ethanol-startup-coskata-launches-backed-by-general-motors-and-khosla/) to produce ethanol, plans to scale up a pilot project to a 40,000-gallon demonstration facility by the end of 2008, and is also working on a 100 million-gallon-per-year facility somewhere in the U.S. that they hope will go online by early 2011. Coskata, along with another public firm called The Alternative Energy Technology Center (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/cellulosic-firms-match-coskatas-ethanol-claims-725.html), are also claiming they can produce commercial-scale ethanol for under $1 per gallon.

Rohirrim
04-14-2008, 10:17 AM
Incorrect. The process is now more refined and advanced than years past.
That will be changing as the process advances. Bio diesel buses, trucks and tractors are already here as well as ethanol.
What would you rather subsidize, the Iraqi invasion and occupation or ethanol? I can't think of anything better to subsidize than home grown renewable and alternative energies, can you?

Better get used to tofu. :rofl:

Dukes
04-14-2008, 12:42 PM
Incorrect. The process is now more refined and advanced than years past.
That will be changing as the process advances. Bio diesel buses, trucks and tractors are already here as well as ethanol.
What would you rather subsidize, the Iraqi invasion and occupation or ethanol? I can't think of anything better to subsidize than home grown renewable and alternative energies, can you?

Oh no I love paying for the government to subsidize a system that can't run on it's own, and not to mention the higher food prices because people want to be "green"

Rohirrim
04-14-2008, 02:19 PM
Here's the funny thing. If the U.S. pegged it's CAFE standards at 50 mpg, tomorrow Japan would be shipping us cars that met that standard while Detroit would be hiring new lobbyists to attack the standard on Capitol Hill.

Bronco_Beerslug
04-14-2008, 06:52 PM
Oh no I love paying for the government to subsidize a system that can't run on it's own, and not to mention the higher food prices because people want to be "green"Actually, it sounds like you'd rather support a government (ours) that subsidizes big oil and nation building.

Here's the funny thing. If the U.S. pegged it's CAFE standards at 50 mpg, tomorrow Japan would be shipping us cars that met that standard while Detroit would be hiring new lobbyists to attack the standard on Capitol Hill.Nah, Ford and GM get it now, finally.

Dukes
04-14-2008, 08:14 PM
Actually, it sounds like you'd rather support a government (ours) that subsidizes big oil and nation building.

::)

Bronco_Beerslug
04-14-2008, 09:10 PM
::)
What, am I wrong? Below is your post I responded to. You're trying to paint ethanol as some kind of fad for hippies or something, not acknowledging the importance of alternative and renewable energy while ignoring the fact that the U.S government subsidizes the oil and gas industry to the tune of billions every year.

Oh no I love paying for the government to subsidize a system that can't run on it's own, and not to mention the higher food prices because people want to be "green"

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
04-15-2008, 07:36 AM
3. Speculation is Up, and the Dollar Is Down


On the same day the President and our Energy Secretary made those foolish comments, no less an authority than ExxonMobil (XOM (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=XOM)) Chief Executive Officer Rex Tillerson (http://investing.businessweek.com/businessweek/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=1127018&symbol=XOM) was quoted by Marketwatch as saying, "The record run in oil prices is related more to speculation and a weakening dollar than supply and demand in the market." He added, "In terms of fundamentals, fear of supply reliability is overblown."
As for the speculators, in 2000 approximately $9 billion was invested in oil futures, while today that number has gone up to $250 billion. Now, if any publicly traded company had an additional $241 billion put into its stock in the same period, its stock would rise out of sight too—even if the company was not worth anywhere near that amount of market capitalization.
Moving on to the weak U.S. dollar as a primary cause for skyrocketing oil prices—there is "some" truth in that statement. But consider this: The dollar has depreciated 30% against the world's currencies since 2002, while the price of oil has gone up 500%. So is it the weak dollar that has caused a 500% increase in the price of oil, or is it the extra $241 billion worth of speculation? You can make the call on that one.
Possibly just to ensure oil prices don't respond to real-world market conditions, Goldman Sachs (GS (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=GS)) forecast on Mar. 7 that turbulence in the oil market could cause oil to spike as high as $200 a barrel. This flies in the face of all known information—but then again, Goldman Sachs is the world's biggest trader of energy derivatives, and its Goldman Sachs Commodities Index is a widely watched barometer of energy and commodities prices.

Bronco Jamus
04-15-2008, 07:41 AM
Either way E85 is a step in the right direction, even if the implementation is currently flawed.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
04-15-2008, 07:42 AM
What Is Washington Thinking?
Rounding out the list of experts discussing our oil and gasoline situation is Bill Klesse (http://investing.businessweek.com/businessweek/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=371573&symbol=VLO), head of San Antonio (Tex.) Valero Energy (VLO (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=VLO)). He spoke in San Diego a week after those comments from Goldman Sachs, the President, and Secretary Bodman. Believe it or not, Klesse said poor margins may cause Valero to sell one-third of its refinery operations; he stated that poor margins in recent months had caused planned refinery expansions—which would have produced 500,000 more barrels per day—to be canceled. Moreover, according to a report from Reuters on Mar. 11, 2008, Klesse recently released the information that gasoline production has been curtailed in response to slowing demand.
Imagine that: Refiners cut gasoline production, yet gasoline reserves have grown to their largest since late 1992. So much for "surging demand."
Klesse also called for the government to start imposing a tariff on imported gasoline to protect U.S. refiners' profits. Protectionism? As famed economist John Kenneth Galbraith correctly said, "In America, the only respectable form of socialism is socialism for the rich."

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
04-15-2008, 07:46 AM
Which takes us back to the original question: Why is Washington doing everything it can to convince us there is a shortage when there isn't one? After all, the only people they're protecting are those heavily invested in oil futures—and that's to the detriment of all other Americans.

We're Paying for What?


When it became undeniable that poor decision-making by company executives had put a respected 85-year-old U.S. institution in financial peril, why did the Federal Reserve rush in to save investment bank Bear Stearns (BSC (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=BSC))? Of course, we need to restore confidence in our financial institutions, but why protect the personal assets of those who were responsible for the mess? Both the corporation's officers and its board members should contribute their personal assets toward saving the bank they put in the ditch—the bank all of us are going to pay to bail out.
Instead, the Bush administration is protecting those responsible for creating yet another speculative bubble in oil futures, and is protecting investors in the ethanol industry—much to the detriment of food-processing companies such as Pilgrim's Pride. And the net result of all this is that the prices of crude and gasoline rise ever higher thanks to a "shortage" that does not exist, while food costs are soaring thanks in part to the ethanol mandate.
The Federal Reserve lowers interest rates, but the cost of mortgages goes up six weeks in a row—and last month Bank of America (BAC (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=BAC)) credit-card holders started being charged more than 24% interest on new purchases.
This is what they call "Republican Prosperity?" Ronald Reagan was both right and wrong when he said, "Government is not the solution, government is the problem." And government is still the problem. Instead of a fair and open market they gave us a free-for-all marketplace with no regulations at all, which lately these "bubble boys" have sent south for all of us.
One would guess that Washington missed the obvious: Protect all U.S. consumers and you're also protecting business expansion.

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/apr2008/bw2008041_945564.htm

Rohirrim
04-15-2008, 09:08 AM
As famed economist John Kenneth Galbraith correctly said, "In America, the only respectable form of socialism is socialism for the rich."

No truer words were ever spoken.

Dukes
04-15-2008, 06:22 PM
What, am I wrong? Below is your post I responded to. You're trying to paint ethanol as some kind of fad for hippies or something, not acknowledging the importance of alternative and renewable energy while ignoring the fact that the U.S government subsidizes the oil and gas industry to the tune of billions every year.

I'm rolling my eyes because you think I love big oil based on my thoughts on Ethanol. I could care less how much big oil profits as long as their product is cheap. It's not so I have no love lost there.

Bronco_Beerslug
04-15-2008, 08:01 PM
I'm rolling my eyes because you think I love big oil based on my thoughts on Ethanol. I could care less how much big oil profits as long as their product is cheap. It's not so I have no love lost there.And there it is folks, ignorance and a basic stupidity that permeates this country.

Dukes
04-15-2008, 11:13 PM
And there it is folks, ignorance and a basic stupidity that permeates this country.

Don't bother reading the sentence after the one you highlighted.

Bronco_Beerslug
04-16-2008, 07:47 PM
Don't bother reading the sentence after the one you highlighted.You have a weird way of trying to say what you think then.