China Hires "Thugs" to Protect Torch

[Rohirrim]

For the reasons i listed in this thread, I think turning a blind eye is the best way to stop the atrocities being commited in China.

:rofl: You keep telling others to go take a class. Maybe you should go take an ethics class.

[Rohirrim]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0417/p01s01-woap.html?page=2

BEIJING - A violent storm of nationalist indignation is roiling the Chinese internet, as bloggers vent their anger at perceived Western insults in the wake of the Tibetan uprising last month.

Simmering resentment at the way the Olympic torch relay was treated by pro-Tibet demonstrators in London and Paris has boiled over this week into invective against a CNN commentator, a French supermarket chain, and Nancy Pelosi, speaker of the US House of Representatives.

The government, which keeps a close eye on Internet debate through censors who delete unapproved comment, has given the campaign free rein. Indeed it has added its voice to the angry chorus, which some observers say echoes ancient resentments.

"This has deep historical resonance," says Kenneth Lieberthal, a political science professor at the University of Michigan. Now that China has regained the international stature it ceded 150 years ago to Western powers, he says, the country's leaders harbor suspicions that "the West is trying to humiliate them again."

CNN apologized Wednesday to Chinese citizens who felt that commentator Jack Cafferty had called them a "bunch of goons and thugs" during an edition of "The Situation Room" last week. Mr. Cafferty had previously explained that he had been referring to the Chinese government, not to the Chinese people.

The clarification and apology came too late, however, to stem a tide of outraged posts across the Chinese blogosphere, where a Chinese translation of Cafferty's derogatory comments had been widely disseminated.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu took up their cause Tuesday, saying Beijing was "shocked to hear the malicious attacks … against the Chinese people." She demanded an apology.

The wave of anti-Western sentiment – unmatched since US planes bombed China's embassy in Belgrade in 1999 –has been fueled by bloggers complaining about biased Western media coverage of the Tibet issue and posting examples.

Demonstrations in Europe that disrupted the international Olympic torch relay fanned the flames: The torch is seen here as a symbol of the summer Olympic Games, which are a source of intense national pride.

The Chinese government has also instilled a sense of pride in the country's achievements over the past three decades. "They have pulled themselves up and they are beginning to command global respect," says Mr. Lieberthal. "They have economic achievements to show, and they have advanced without wars, and without upsetting the international apple cart."

Most Chinese are baffled by the Western outcry over Tibet, he points out, since they believe that Tibet has always been part of China and that Tibetans have benefited from the country's growing prosperity.

"They think that Tibet cannot be the real reason" for Western criticism of China, Lieberthal adds. "They think that the real reason must be that no matter what they do … the West will give them no credit."

The tone of the Internet debate has grown increasingly heated. "Don't think all Westerners are arrogant and ignorant, but right now most of them are" was among the most moderate postings Wednesday on a china.com discussion thread.

A campaign to boycott Carrefour, the popular French supermarket chain, has gathered pace in recent days through text messages and e-mail chain letters. French President Nicolas Sarkozy has indicated he may not attend the Olympic opening ceremony if Beijing does not open talks with the Dalai Lama.

"Boycott Carrefour. Slap them in the face. Let the beast disappear from Chinese territory," reads one chat-room post urging people to shop elsewhere.

Another campaign spreading like wildfire through the Chinese MSN instant message network calls on users to put "I heart China" in front of their usernames. "Let's show the whole world how united we are," one instant message suggests.

On Taobao.com, a Chinese version of ebay.com, enterprising merchants have seized on the mood to offer T-shirts emblazoned with "Shut Up CNN" or "I Love China."

Chinese students abroad have taken up the cudgels, planning big demonstrations in Europe and Australia. Chinese students at Duke University have assailed one of their compatriots, Grace Wang, who attended a pro-Tibet demonstration on campus, with hate mail and death threats; others have carried the campaign to her parents' home in Qingdao, upending a bucket of feces by their front door.

Officials have also joined the fray. The official Xinhua news agency carried an unusually harsh commentary last weekend attacking Ms. Pelosi – a longstanding critic of the Chinese government – as "disgusting" and "detested by the Chinese people."

Government-run newspapers have run a series of articles condemning what authorities say is unfair foreign press coverage of Tibet-related issues. On Tuesday, China Daily published an editorial arguing that "Westerners have been blaming Chinese authorities for cultivating nationalist sentiments through patriotic education. No patriotic education could possibly be as effective as the Western media's distortion of facts and Western politicians' brazen disregard of the truth."

In an opinion piece published in the same paper, China's ambassador to London, Fu Ying, complained of "the media's attempt to demonize China" and warned that "we all know that demonization feeds a counter-reaction.

"I am concerned that mutual perceptions between the people of China and the West are quickly drifting in opposite directions," she wrote.




Tell me again how these protests are constructive ?

Wow. Are you missing the point, or what? It doesn't matter if they are constructive or not. They are the acts of individuals who wish to protest. That's what people do in a free society. It's not up to the government of a free people to comment on it, repress it, or apologize for it. The diplomatic effort should be to explain to China that in a free society, we don't "disappear" people for dissent, whether constructive or not.

I bolded the above bits as points of interest.

More utilitarian thinking a la Chinois: If we invade your country, kill a million of your people, smash dissent, destroy all your religious temples, outlaw your religion, murder thousands of peaceful Buddhist monks, overwhelm your population by moving in millions of Han Chinese to turn you into a minority, and all but wipe out your culture...
but then raise your level of prosperity, we've done you a favor.

[baja]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0417/p01s01-woap.html?page=2

BEIJING - A violent storm of nationalist indignation is roiling the Chinese internet, as bloggers vent their anger at perceived Western insults in the wake of the Tibetan uprising last month.

Simmering resentment at the way the Olympic torch relay was treated by pro-Tibet demonstrators in London and Paris has boiled over this week into invective against a CNN commentator, a French supermarket chain, and Nancy Pelosi, speaker of the US House of Representatives.

The government, which keeps a close eye on Internet debate through censors who delete unapproved comment, has given the campaign free rein. Indeed it has added its voice to the angry chorus, which some observers say echoes ancient resentments.

"This has deep historical resonance," says Kenneth Lieberthal, a political science professor at the University of Michigan. Now that China has regained the international stature it ceded 150 years ago to Western powers, he says, the country's leaders harbor suspicions that "the West is trying to humiliate them again."

CNN apologized Wednesday to Chinese citizens who felt that commentator Jack Cafferty had called them a "bunch of goons and thugs" during an edition of "The Situation Room" last week. Mr. Cafferty had previously explained that he had been referring to the Chinese government, not to the Chinese people.

The clarification and apology came too late, however, to stem a tide of outraged posts across the Chinese blogosphere, where a Chinese translation of Cafferty's derogatory comments had been widely disseminated.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu took up their cause Tuesday, saying Beijing was "shocked to hear the malicious attacks … against the Chinese people." She demanded an apology.

The wave of anti-Western sentiment – unmatched since US planes bombed China's embassy in Belgrade in 1999 –has been fueled by bloggers complaining about biased Western media coverage of the Tibet issue and posting examples.

Demonstrations in Europe that disrupted the international Olympic torch relay fanned the flames: The torch is seen here as a symbol of the summer Olympic Games, which are a source of intense national pride.

The Chinese government has also instilled a sense of pride in the country's achievements over the past three decades. "They have pulled themselves up and they are beginning to command global respect," says Mr. Lieberthal. "They have economic achievements to show, and they have advanced without wars, and without upsetting the international apple cart."

Most Chinese are baffled by the Western outcry over Tibet, he points out, since they believe that Tibet has always been part of China and that Tibetans have benefited from the country's growing prosperity.

"They think that Tibet cannot be the real reason" for Western criticism of China, Lieberthal adds. "They think that the real reason must be that no matter what they do … the West will give them no credit."

The tone of the Internet debate has grown increasingly heated. "Don't think all Westerners are arrogant and ignorant, but right now most of them are" was among the most moderate postings Wednesday on a china.com discussion thread.

A campaign to boycott Carrefour, the popular French supermarket chain, has gathered pace in recent days through text messages and e-mail chain letters. French President Nicolas Sarkozy has indicated he may not attend the Olympic opening ceremony if Beijing does not open talks with the Dalai Lama.

"Boycott Carrefour. Slap them in the face. Let the beast disappear from Chinese territory," reads one chat-room post urging people to shop elsewhere.

Another campaign spreading like wildfire through the Chinese MSN instant message network calls on users to put "I heart China" in front of their usernames. "Let's show the whole world how united we are," one instant message suggests.

On Taobao.com, a Chinese version of ebay.com, enterprising merchants have seized on the mood to offer T-shirts emblazoned with "Shut Up CNN" or "I Love China."

Chinese students abroad have taken up the cudgels, planning big demonstrations in Europe and Australia. Chinese students at Duke University have assailed one of their compatriots, Grace Wang, who attended a pro-Tibet demonstration on campus, with hate mail and death threats; others have carried the campaign to her parents' home in Qingdao, upending a bucket of feces by their front door.

Officials have also joined the fray. The official Xinhua news agency carried an unusually harsh commentary last weekend attacking Ms. Pelosi – a longstanding critic of the Chinese government – as "disgusting" and "detested by the Chinese people."

Government-run newspapers have run a series of articles condemning what authorities say is unfair foreign press coverage of Tibet-related issues. On Tuesday, China Daily published an editorial arguing that "Westerners have been blaming Chinese authorities for cultivating nationalist sentiments through patriotic education. No patriotic education could possibly be as effective as the Western media's distortion of facts and Western politicians' brazen disregard of the truth."

In an opinion piece published in the same paper, China's ambassador to London, Fu Ying, complained of "the media's attempt to demonize China" and warned that "we all know that demonization feeds a counter-reaction.

"I am concerned that mutual perceptions between the people of China and the West are quickly drifting in opposite directions," she wrote.




Tell me again how these protests are constructive ?

Who ever thought that the root cause of WWIII would turn out to be Political correctness.

[baja]

Since 1949 the Chinese have murdered 1.2 million innocent Tibetans. I'll let you sort that out on your utilitarian list of "atrocities committed globally." Last week, they killed 20 more and executed five.

Although in your zeal to defend China you would like to equate anything the U.S. has done in the last fifty years to the atrocities in Tibet, obviously, we fall far short. I know you'll find that disappointing.

Shakenbake's article - Most Chinese are baffled by the Western outcry over Tibet, he points out, since they believe that Tibet has always been part of China and that Tibetans have benefited from the country's growing prosperity.

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=4174&pst=1034813

1.2 million Tibetans died as a direct result of Chinese atrocities.

Over 6000 monasteries and institutes of learning have been destroyed.

Precious Tibetan artifacts were vandalized and sold in Hong Kong markets.
Over 6000 Tibetan religious and historical literature have been destroyed.

Tibetans in Tibet are second class citizen without basic Human Rights, such as Freedom of Expression, Freedom of Religion, Right to Education, etc.

Tibetan women are subjected to forced abortion and sterilization.

Tibetan Children are denied their right to education.

70% of Tibetans living in Tibet now are illiterate.

Arbitrary arrests, torture, intimidation and imprisonment without trial are the order of the day for Tibetans in their country.

Tibet has been divided into different parts and incorporated with Chinese provinces, thereby removing the existing Tibetan identity.

Thousands of Tibetans are still in prisons in China. Tibet’s natural resources and fragile ecology are irreversibly destroyed.

6 Million Tibetans have been outnumbered by 7.5 Million Chinese inducted into Tibet causing demographic disadvantage to Tibetans in their own country.

Sources:
Amnesty International.
Human Rights Watch.
Freedom House.
Human Rights First.
United Nations.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You're right though that the debt is freakin killing us, on all fronts, economically and politically. Amazing how much damage a single president can do.

Ding ding ding! :yep:

[Rohirrim]

China also has a long established tradition of rewriting its history whenever it suits their purposes. For all I know, they are teaching their students that the Tibetans begged to join China and be freed from their Buddhists oppressors. This probably explains much of the reaction from the Chinese:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/01/world/asia/01china.html

“The junior high textbook castrates history, while the senior high school textbook eliminates it entirely,” one Shanghai history teacher wrote in an online discussion. The teacher asked to remain anonymous because he was criticizing the education authorities.

[Rohirrim]

saturday, march 22, 2008

China and Tibet: a conspiracy of silence.
What do mainland Chinese know about the unrest and subsequent brutal crackdown in Tibet?
Not a lot, in many cases.

In Singapore, there are many PRC (Peoples' Republic of China) students here. I will explain more about their situation in another post. I would, however, like to note something which I have become aware of. These students are in the habit of calling home, to their parents in China, on a regular basis. All of them have had a strange experience, recently. In their calls home, they have tried to discuss the Tibetan situation - which they have seen in the Singaporean and international media, here in Singapore - with their parents. Do you know what they discovered?

None of their Chinese mainland parents knew about it.

It seems that the media in China has been far from dedicated to carrying this story, for in a random sampling of mainland Chinese, performed by the PRC students here in Singapore, none of them were aware of the unrest and crackdown, in Tibet.

This reminded me of another time when I had taught PRC students. There was a boy in my class who was of very certain views about the wonders of China. It turned out that his father was an important man in the hierarchy of the Communist Party of China. This was many years ago and somehow the subject of Tiananmen Square came up. This boy barked out: "No-one died at Tiananmen Square".

"Who told you that?" I asked him, rather surprised.

"My father."

I felt sad for him. Even his own father lied to him, to protect the image of the motherland from the Truth.

I pointed out that I had seen the terrible events for myself on CNN and that the whole world had watched what happened at Tiananmen Square - the whole world except China.

He was silent. He didn't know how to defend his father's lying tongue.

The situation with regards to Tibet is very similar. Part of the reason that China is so successful at repression, is because its people simply do not know what is happening. They do not know the darkness at the centre of their own society. The PRC students here, in Singapore, are all somewhat shocked to learn of the events in Tibet. Yet, there is something locked up inside them: they still can't allow themselves to see the truth of their own country. They take a view which would not disturb the Communist Party's line. They take the view that China is "right" to crackdown in Tibet. That Tibet "owes China". That Tibet "cannot survive without China's resources". That Tibet "cannot be allowed to be independent from China". Their view is that of the Communist Party.

Interestingly, a teacher I know who was teaching them, picked up on this line of thought and asked them to write what they thought about the situation in Tibet. What was really scarey about this exercise was what they handed in: the same essay in forty hands. All of the students thought in exactly the same way. All of them could have been writing press releases for the Communist Party of China. None of them were able, or willing, to think independently. It was quite sobering to see the sheer SAMENESS of their output. The thoughts I have excerpted above, in the previous paragraph, appeared in every single essay.

Why then does China fear the Truth so much when, even when exposed to it, their PRC youngsters maintain the Party line and speak with the Party tongue? I would say it points to an excessive desire to control their minds. Not only are they to think the Party way - but they are not to be exposed to thoughts contrary to it. There isn't even to be a chance that anyone might agree with an opposition view, because they never get to hear one and are never able to formulate one themselves. They are to be blind to the truth and to the world - and to know only what they are allowed to know. That appears to be the system, anyway.

Is China ever going to be a free nation? I really have my doubts. Even the internet is censored there. Without exposure to the truth of their nation, there is no way that the Chinese themselves are able to see it as it is. They just aren't allowed access to the information. Even when they receive it, as the PRCs studying here have - they don't internalize it, they maintain the Party line and continue to believe resolutely in the ways of the motherland. All of them have been strongly brainwashed, by any standard. None of them are capable of independent thought. China wants it that way - and will keep it that way - unless external forces are strong enough to change the way things are, inside China.

I don't see it happening. The rest of the world is now in what I would call a cowardly phase. They stand on the sidelines of the Tibetan situation and say: "Ho hum, that's not good". However, none of them DO anything about it. The Tibetans are unique. They are a gentle culture, unable to resist the oppressive might of China. Yet, it is easy to see that the international community will do nothing to intervene on their side, that is remotely effective. Will the international community wait until all ethnic Tibetans are dead, before acting?

The youth of China will not make a different China to the old. They will grow up to be the same as their fathers and forefathers. That is easy to see in the PRC students studying in Singapore. They think as their Party thinks. If China is ever to be a democratic state with respectable human rights, the outside world is going to have to show China the way. China just cannot do it itself. Why? It simply doesn't want to - and so it won't.

The Chinese need to know about China. Oddly, they don't. If the world had a moral conscience (I am not sure it does - or at least not an effective one) it should act to ensure that the Chinese people get access to wider information on their own nation. Perhaps then, things will begin to change, and the kind of action presently taking place in Tibet, would become unacceptable to the Chinese people. Right now, however, they think it is just, right and proper to act so. At least, the PRC students here seem to think so. It is interesting to see how their understanding of morality is so constrained that they can consider murder, repression and occupation, as just and justifiable acts.

They have a lot to learn. It is up to the rest of the world to teach them.http://scientific-child-prodigy.blogspot.com/2008/03/china-and-tibet-conspiracy-of-silence.html

[shakenbake]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/16/EDHF1060Q5.DTL

Resist the attempt to hold the Olympics hostage
Nina Hachigian
Wednesday, April 16, 2008
The first big domino fell last week in the grassroots movement in Europe and America calling for a boycott the Beijing Olympics over China's human-rights record. Britain's prime minister, Gordon Brown, has announced he would not attend the Opening Ceremonies. Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton quickly issued a statement praising his decision and calling on President Bush to stay away, too. Meanwhile, the Olympic torch was in San Francisco, ducking into dark warehouses and fleeing down back alleys to evade protesters.

The increasingly political environment surrounding the Games makes it easy to lose track of the point of the protests. The important question is: What is the best way to improve the situation in Tibet?

Tibet's spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, has spoken out against a boycott. He knows that the more political and public a fight this becomes, the harder it will be for China to move forward constructively. Do you have a friend, or boss, who cannot admit he or she is wrong in public? China is like that. Chinese leaders do not want to be seen backing down in response to what many ordinary Chinese think are hypocritical Western demands, intentionally aimed at embarrassing and undermining their country.

America has so little leverage to influence human rights in China that it is supremely tempting to hold the Games hostage. Yet the only proven methodology to make progress on human rights in China is boring, incremental and politically thankless, at best. America can help on the margins to empower civil society on the ground there, embed China deeply into a world system that reflects liberal values and encourages open trade, and, most of all, lead by example - not a U.S. strength, as of late. The bold move would be for the United States to join the Human Rights Council at the United Nations where China's record could be publicly scrutinized each year. But you know that when a U.N. bureaucracy is the SUGGESTED solution to any problem, American politicians will run for cover, fearing accusations of waste and bias.

Calling for a boycott of the Olympics, on the other hand - that will get A POLITICIAN on TV, and it sounds principled. Unfortunately, it will not help the people of Tibet one iota. Public shame will not work with China - it never has. It just reinforces the common Chinese perception, or misperception, that the West does not want it to succeed. Appealing to China's pride, its fervent desire for normalcy, its wish for respect, might.

America and the West should make it easier for China to do the right thing, not harder. So if there is any leverage to be had in the occasion of the Summer Olympics, it is behind the scenes, with likeminded allies, each sending a consistent message that China has a fleeting chance to turn lemons into lemonade. With the whole world watching, Beijing could pull a "Nixon in China" moment and engage with the Dalai Lama, who is not calling for independence, but rather autonomy for Tibet. Of course, every day, Beijing's leaders are making it harder for themselves to do the right thing because they are demonizing the Dalai Lama - their best hope for negotiating a status quo that both Tibetans and the Chinese government can accept. Many younger Tibetans are not so moderate.

President Bush should not decide at this point whether or not to go to the Opening Ceremonies. The Olympics are still nearly four months away, and there is still a glimmer of hope that Beijing will seize this opportunity in Tibet. Meanwhile, politicians should try to resist the temptation of holding the Games hostage. The people of Tibet do not need more symbolism. They need change.



I know it isn't gun's blazing, symbolic diplomacy, but hey this approach has worked and is working. At least Bill Clinton seemed to prefer this approach.

[shakenbake]

Roh you keep going back to 1949, Do you honestly think today's China is the same as it was in 1949?

[Rohirrim]

Roh you keep going back to 1949, Do you honestly think today's China is the same as it was in 1949?

??? I seem to remember posting that China killed 20 Tibetans last week and executed five. Last week. It started in 1949, but it's still going on.

[shakenbake]

??? I seem to remember posting that China killed 20 Tibetans last week and executed five. Last week. It started in 1949, but it's still going on.

And you know this how? I haven't seen any one with accurate #'s as to deaths. I would think the US has learned it's lesson when it comes to trusting information from "governments in exile" and dissidents (see Iraq) Not that you can trust the CCP's #'s either.

I guess if you can't see that there have been changes going on in China then there is much else to discuss. I can point you to some books to read but it will be pointless. You don't seem like the type willing to go into with an open mind.
I am honest when I tell you, before going to China, I held many of the same attitudes. I was even very skeptical of my professors there, and pretty much distrusted everything they said. I was even a little skeptical of people I talked with, thinking they were just brain washed by the CCP. It wasn't until I came back and continued my studies that I began to really see and understand what is going on behind the scenes. yadda yadda yaddda I have said it all before in this thread.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/not-bitter.jpg

[Willynowei]

Okay, they estimate a 1.2 million death toll of Tibetans under Mao, Mao also killed 43 million Chinese, but Mao's regime was quietly overthrown - per the artilces I put up... so why do you guys keep bringing it up?

Its not that I need an ethics class, its that you guys need to come out of that fantasy land that makes you think you can simply "fix" the world.

[baja]

Okay, they estimate a 1.2 million death toll of Tibetans under Mao, Mao also killed 43 million Chinese, but Mao's regime was quietly overthrown - per the artilces I put up... so why do you guys keep bringing it up?

<b>Its not that I need an ethics class, its that you guys need to come out of that fantasy land that makes you think you can simply "fix" the world.

Nobody is expecting to fix the world we are just saying that the USA should call China on it's human rights violations after all that is why we attacked Iraq and suffered the loss of 4000 American souls and trillions of dollars isn't it?

[Willynowei]

Nobody is expecting to fix the world we are just saying that the USA should call China on it's human rights violations after all that is why we attacked Iraq and suffered the loss of 4000 American souls and trillions of dollars isn't it?

:spit: LOL ROFL!

You mean a nut job commander and chief and a braindead congress looking for "weapons of mass destruction"? LOL

In anycase, my belief is that the pen is mightier than the sword and still, the dollar is mightier than the pen.

We control China only as much as our economic ties allow. Fix the problems at home, pay off our debt and continue to invest capital into China and it won't be long before they have to bend to our will, or more specifically the will of our Transnational Corporations who will become the entities that keep their citizens clothed and fed.

[alkemical]

:spit: LOL ROFL!

You mean a nut job commander and chief and a braindead congress looking for "weapons of mass destruction"? LOL

In anycase, my belief is that the pen is mightier than the sword and still, the dollar is mightier than the pen.

We control China only as much as our economic ties allow. Fix the problems at home, pay off our debt and continue to invest capital into China and it won't be long before they have to bend to our will, or more specifically the will of our Transnational Corporations who will become the entities that keep their citizens clothed and fed.


There are no countries anymore, just corporations - #2 from Dr. Evil

[Rohirrim]

Okay, they estimate a 1.2 million death toll of Tibetans under Mao, Mao also killed 43 million Chinese, but Mao's regime was quietly overthrown - per the artilces I put up... so why do you guys keep bringing it up?

Its not that I need an ethics class, its that you guys need to come out of that fantasy land that makes you think you can simply "fix" the world.

Who's trying to fix the world? Not me. I just want my country to live up to its stated principles. Not sell them out to the highest bidder. The invasion and continued oppression of Tibet by China is a violation of not only our principles, but most of the world's as well. For us to take no action, and say nothing, and pretend it's just business as usual, is an act of cowardice for which we will pay down the road.

[Willynowei]

Who's trying to fix the world? Not me. I just want my country to live up to its stated principles. Not sell them out to the highest bidder. The invasion and continued oppression of Tibet by China is a violation of not only our principles, but most of the world's as well. For us to take no action, and say nothing, and pretend it's just business as usual, is an act of cowardice for which we will pay down the road.

Take your rose colored glasses off. We violate our own principles all the time, and so does the rest of the world.

"You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye

first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from

your brother’s eye."

[Rohirrim]

Another file under the heading, "You can't handle the truth!"

Chinese go berserk. http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/18/917308.aspx

In the wake of these incidents, one can only wonder if this is the image China’s government and its people really want to present to the outside world as they prepare to host an Olympics bearing the banner "One World One Dream."

Interesting that at the same time the Pope is at the UN declaring that human rights are "universal."

[Rohirrim]

Take your rose colored glasses off. We violate our own principles all the time, and so does the rest of the world.

"You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye

first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from

your brother’s eye."

Not all of us. I don't know what you call that philosophy of yours. I find it small, mean and ugly. It would be the kind of political philosophy followed by rats living in a dump.

[Willynowei]

Not all of us. I don't know what you call that philosophy of yours. I find it small, mean and ugly. It would be the kind of political philosophy followed by rats living in a dump.

Us as in America. stay on topic.

[Cito Pelon]

I recently read about the growing nationalism that is going on in China, and how it isn't connected to the state (government) but more of a Chinese movement. Anyway, many people in China, especially the nationalists ones feel China was the one who lost face in that whole ordeal. Throw in the 1999 US bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade and what many Chinese nationalists feel an inadequate response and you have many who feel the CCP just kowtow's to the US.

Either way, Bill Clinton did a lot to take away the US ability to "make China lose face" or keep them in check. He was the one who made their most favored nation status permeant rather than something that was reviewed annually. He also granted them permanent normal trade relations which set the stage for them to join the WTO. I see people talking about Bush all the time for jobs going over seas, Bill Clinton did way more to help that process than Bush did.

I am not sure why you think something more recent about the China-US relationship wouldn't enlighten you, I always feel the most current information is the best but hey that is me.

Those are good points. China, Japan, those are interesting cultures. Very powerful cultures. I wont live long enough to see how it all plays out, but the interplay between China, Japan, the Koreas and the rest of the world has been pretty darn interesting in my lifetime. Then you throw in the Russians, the Arabs, the Israelis, the Cubans, the Europeans, the S. Africans, the Persians, the Libyans, the Argentines, and what a ride it's been.

[Rohirrim]

The "new" China spreading peace in Africa.

http://voanews.com/english/Africa/Zimbabwe/2008-04-22-voa61.cfm