Robertson again

[rugbythug]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_8818449

Up next
The next three weeks at Dove Valley will be devoted to the draft. The Broncos have the No. 12 and 42 overall picks on the first day, April 26.

On the second day, the Broncos hope to use one of their late-round picks to acquire Jets" defensive tackle Dewayne Robertson


Have they ironed out a contract? I have read at broncomania that they had. I have not seen anything here.

[Broncojef]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_8818449

Up next
The next three weeks at Dove Valley will be devoted to the draft. The Broncos have the No. 12 and 42 overall picks on the first day, April 26.

On the second day, the Broncos hope to use one of their late-round picks to acquire Jets" defensive tackle Dewayne Robertson


Have they ironed out a contract? I have read at broncomania that they had. I have not seen anything here.

Hes a big body that may be damaged goods and costs a ton of money how can Shanny resist?

[cmhargrove]

Wasn't there a roster bonus or something in April?

That means the Jets would eat the bonus, then trade? I just don't remember when his next payday was, but I thought it was before the draft.

If we can get an incentive laden contract, he would certainly be worth a sixth or seventh rounder, although I doubt we would be the only ones calling for Robertson with those terms.

[Paladin]

But, but, but....... Everyone says he would be the best Dlneman on the team......

Guess that means the Broncos will take either McFaddin - if he's there - or Mendenhall in the first....

[rugbythug]

June 1 roster bonus

[wabbit]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_8818449

Up next
The next three weeks at Dove Valley will be devoted to the draft. The Broncos have the No. 12 and 42 overall picks on the first day, April 26.

On the second day, the Broncos hope to use one of their late-round picks to acquire Jets" defensive tackle Dewayne Robertson


Have they ironed out a contract? I have read at broncomania that they had. I have not seen anything here.


I have resigned myself to the fact that Denver is going to trade for this guy, question marks & all.

The Bronco organization as a whole seems almost desperate to NOT have to focus one of the early selections of the draft on DT, although somewhere in the process, the selection of a DT is a virtual certainty.

The broad parameters of an agreement may've been worked out...I don't know for certain, but I do know they were fairly close as the talks have fluctuated between on again, off again.

The last hitch, as I understand it, has been the guaranteed money...something of a sensitive subject at Dove Valley these days.

[chrisp]

I have resigned myself to the fact that Denver is going to trade for this guy, question marks & all.

The Bronco organization as a whole seems almost desperate to NOT have to focus one of the early selections of the draft on DT, although somewhere in the process, the selection of a DT is a virtual certainty.

The broad parameters of an agreement may've been worked out...I don't know for certain, but I do know they were fairly close as the talks have fluctuated between on again, off again.

The last hitch, as I understand it, has been the guaranteed money...something of a sensitive subject at Dove Valley these days.

If its taken this long to work out a deal you would have to think that we have hammered out something that is fairly cap-friendly and doesn't cost us too much if he blows out - he's a solid vet as long as the knees hold up.

....and a 2nd day pick I can live with - this guy may or may not contribute but you could say exactly the same thing about a 6th or 7th round draft pick,at least if Roberston DOES come in AND the knee holds up he should make more of an impact - your late-round draft selections are doing well just to secure a place on the bench.

[NFLBRONCO]

I have resigned myself to the fact that Denver is going to trade for this guy, question marks & all.

The Bronco organization as a whole seems almost desperate to NOT have to focus one of the early selections of the draft on DT, although somewhere in the process, the selection of a DT is a virtual certainty.

The broad parameters of an agreement may've been worked out...I don't know for certain, but I do know they were fairly close as the talks have fluctuated between on again, off again.

The last hitch, as I understand it, has been the guaranteed money...something of a sensitive subject at Dove Valley these days.

By 2010 we will be stuck with a huge contract and damaged goods and we will release him. Our luck with injuries lately this deal scares me because he has played alot even on bad knees he will get here and miss alot of games just watch.

[mattob14]

I have resigned myself to the fact that Denver is going to trade for this guy, question marks & all.

The Bronco organization as a whole seems almost desperate to NOT have to focus one of the early selections of the draft on DT, although somewhere in the process, the selection of a DT is a virtual certainty.
The broad parameters of an agreement may've been worked out...I don't know for certain, but I do know they were fairly close as the talks have fluctuated between on again, off again.

The last hitch, as I understand it, has been the guaranteed money...something of a sensitive subject at Dove Valley these days.

Given the DT group available this year, it's probably good that Denver's working to avoid grabbing one early. We at least need someone in the middle rounds, but I'd hate to see us reach for a DT in round 2 because we need another body. There will be much better talent at RB, WR, or OL in round 2 than at DT.

[Popps]

I just can't see how upset people can get about this. The guy has never missed any playing time and it looks like we'll be using a 2nd day pick to bring him in.
He seems to be fairly well respected by those who watched him play closely.

We've got absolutely nothing on the D-line. Nothing.

Taking a swing at a guy for a middle-round pick is just not a big deal either way. The potential upside is obvious. The potential downside is obvious... and limited.

It's a well-hedged bet at a position of desperate need.

[Merlin]

It's a well-hedged bet at a position of desperate need.
If it is a late round draft choice you give it and walk away smiling. Worst case scenario he gives Denver a couple of years of service. For a late round draft choice, that is more than sufficient payback. Highly unlikely that Denver will hit with all its late round choices, and this one at least gives you a guaranteed starter at spot of huge need, and where the draft stinks after the first couple of DT.

[Inkana7]

He's a beast on my Madden dynasty. Always makes the pro bowl, always top-3 in DL of the Year award.

[Broncojef]

Given the DT group available this year, it's probably good that Denver's working to avoid grabbing one early. We at least need someone in the middle rounds, but I'd hate to see us reach for a DT in round 2 because we need another body. There will be much better talent at RB, WR, or OL in round 2 than at DT.

Thats not really true, while I can think of no one at DT I'd want at #12 (Dorsey/Ellis gone) there are 3 or 4 I could live with in the second..Laws, Moore, Sims, Bryant. Matter of fact even if we do get Robertson I truly hope one of those guys will be drafted by us in the second.

[Sodak]

This reminds me a little of when Denver was bringing in Schlereth from Washington. I think he had already had about 11 surgeries on his knees at that point.

[telluride]

If its taken this long to work out a deal you would have to think that we have hammered out something that is fairly cap-friendly and doesn't cost us too much if he blows out - he's a solid vet as long as the knees hold up.

....and a 2nd day pick I can live with - this guy may or may not contribute but you could say exactly the same thing about a 6th or 7th round draft pick,at least if Roberston DOES come in AND the knee holds up he should make more of an impact - your late-round draft selections are doing well just to secure a place on the bench.

It's that kind of thinking that's gotten us a team with crappy special teams and very little depth. The reality is that we've been a .500 team for the past two years. We're going to be pretty average again this year, and perhaps even the next. We aren't in "one player away" mode. It'll be 2010 before we are at that stage again, if even then. By then, Robertson will be hugely expensive and even more broken down.

Keep every draft pick. Draft wisely. Build a deep, young, cost-effective team. And don't gamble on questionable free agents. For Shanny, these gambles NEVER work out.

[Kaylore]

I just can't see how upset people can get about this.
Because his knee is gone. He failed a physical and won't budge on his contract.

We've got absolutely nothing on the D-line. Nothing.

Totally untrue.

[Gcver2ver3]

I have resigned myself to the fact that Denver is going to trade for this guy, question marks & all.

The Bronco organization as a whole seems almost desperate to NOT have to focus one of the early selections of the draft on DT,

i think you're right...

my expectation is we go OT with our #12...

and WR with our #42...

although LB may get a look as well...

[mattob14]

Thats not really true, while I can think of no one at DT I'd want at #12 (Dorsey/Ellis gone) there are 3 or 4 I could live with in the second..Laws, Moore, Sims, Bryant. Matter of fact even if we do get Robertson I truly hope one of those guys will be drafted by us in the second.

But if we don't get Robertson, we basically have to grab one of these guys in round 2. I'd hate to pass up a slider like Kenny Phillips or Jonathan Stewart in round 2 because we felt like we had to draft Red Bryant. Those are two guys who have the potential to be top-10 at their positions in the future, while Bryant is a two-down rotational player. If we feel that the value is there at DT and can bring in a rookie to play in rotation with Robertson and Thomas, great. I just don't want to be forced into a need pick if the value isn't there.

[bap454]

I would rather us trade our 12th pick, foxworth, and the late pick to the
Ravens. Then pick Ellis from USC. Makes perfect sense to me... any takers??

[Broncoman13]

I just can't see how upset people can get about this. The guy has never missed any playing time and it looks like we'll be using a 2nd day pick to bring him in.
He seems to be fairly well respected by those who watched him play closely.

We've got absolutely nothing on the D-line. Nothing.

Taking a swing at a guy for a middle-round pick is just not a big deal either way. The potential upside is obvious. The potential downside is obvious... and limited.

It's a well-hedged bet at a position of desperate need.


For a 2nd round pick I'd be concerned and not in favor... for a late pick I like the deal. You said it well.

[eddie mac]

I want Robertson here because he upgrades the paper-mache DT position ten-fold. I just hope this isn't too expensive in terms of guaranteed money and compensation. I doubt it will be though with 2 reported failed physicals being made public.

[Pseudofool]

I just can't see how upset people can get about this. The guy has never missed any playing time and it looks like we'll be using a 2nd day pick to bring him in.
He seems to be fairly well respected by those who watched him play closely.

We've got absolutely nothing on the D-line. Nothing.

Taking a swing at a guy for a middle-round pick is just not a big deal either way. The potential upside is obvious. The potential downside is obvious... and limited.

It's a well-hedged bet at a position of desperate need.Agreed. Money is the only problem and I imagine they will work that out if they trade for him.

[rovolution]

Agreed. Money is the only problem and I imagine they will work that out if they trade for him.

Then i think the trade would have been consummated by now.

From all accounts, the thing that is holding this up is Robertson's unwillingness to renegotiate his deal.

[Dedhed]

I would rather us trade our 12th pick, foxworth, and the late pick to the
Ravens. Then pick Ellis from USC. Makes perfect sense to me... any takers??

I'd rather do both, and get Ellis and Robertson.

[Northman]

Keep every draft pick. Draft wisely. Build a deep, young, cost-effective team. And don't gamble on questionable free agents.

Totally agree with this.

[montrose]

Then i think the trade would have been consummated by now.

From all accounts, the thing that is holding this up is Robertson's unwillingness to renegotiate his deal.

And why should he? He can wait to be released and go sign anywhere he wants.

[CHANGSTER]

It's that kind of thinking that's gotten us a team with crappy special teams and very little depth. The reality is that we've been a .500 team for the past two years. We're going to be pretty average again this year, and perhaps even the next. We aren't in "one player away" mode. It'll be 2010 before we are at that stage again, if even then. By then, Robertson will be hugely expensive and even more broken down.

Keep every draft pick. Draft wisely. Build a deep, young, cost-effective team. And don't gamble on questionable free agents. For Shanny, these gambles NEVER work out.

Theirs a problem with that. Denver is already has 80 players on the roster and the league voted to not extend it to 86 (I Believe it was) like Denver was hoping they would. They preferably don't want to go into the draft with a large amount of late picks. The kicker and punter competition situation just makes the numbers even tighter.

[Drek]

I don't have a problem sending a late round pick (5th or later) for Robertson, especially if we get him signed onto a reasonable deal. He doesn't deserve a big payday, but I'll chance the knee situation as it has yet to stop him from playing a single game in NY yet.

If we can get him on a deal without a huge amount of guaranteed money and some well distributed cap hits that will let us dump him at the one and two year marks should the knee become an issue then I'm all for it.

Those are some lofty concessions but I'm hoping the boys in Dove Valley figured out how to get it done.

[Popcorn Sutton]

Let's be honest here. Nobody really knows what's happening behind the scenes. We do know that Shanahan was quoted saying Robertson failed the physical. With that said, I'm going to go out on a limb and say any contract agreement between Robertson and the Broncos would most likely be tied to playing time, i.e. Courtney Brown. I am all for trading for Robertson based on his play on the field over the last several years, especially for a late round draft pick.

[eddie mac]

And why should he? He can wait to be released and go sign anywhere he wants.

I'd say there's 2 good reasons why he should and he'll find out for sure when he gets cut on 31 May and finds out there's no dollars for Dwayne.

[Atlas]

What Jets fans are saying.

Nikolas, on April 6th, 2008 at 4:25 pm Said:
I think the Jets should try to renegotiate his contract and keep him. It seems though that D-Rob thinks that he can do much better as a FA and that is why the FO may be willing to accept anything. It is just sad, that good players must be let go or traded for low round picks. He is too good of a player and I would agree with Harlan, in a 43 system he may become a pro-bowler. This year, Mangini and his sytem must deliver the goods , otherwise giving away our 1st round picks like Vilma and Robertson because they do not fit can put the franchise back for years to come.

Nikolas, on April 6th, 2008 at 4:30 pm Said:
And..Bassett ..the Randy Moss for a 4th round pick is an excuse for bad trades. The reason Moss was traded for a 4th, we all know, was not because of talent but rather character. And Moss showed them how wrong they were, that is why the Eagles were offering him a ton of money.

Bent, on April 6th, 2008 at 4:50 pm Said:
Hopefully the Jets can get a conditional pick, so that if he does make the Pro Bowl, they get rewarded, whereas if he doesn’t the Broncos don’t have to give up much. That will mean a deal can get done.

Draz67, on March 31st, 2008 at 2:02 pm Said:
Unload Dslob in exchanging of 1st rounders and denvers 2nd. They get our 6th we get their 12th and 42nd. Dream come true. Denver would be able to grab ellis, dorsey or gholston. One of them will be there at 6. We can grab a toy for KC: the best WR in the draft.


18andOne, on March 31st, 2008 at 3:07 pm Said:
Thats not too bad. Think about it, currently DRob’s trade value is about a fifth round draft pick (maximum 43 points). So the Jets would be giving their first round pick (1,600 points) and DRob to denver for their first (1,200 points) and second (480) round picks. That would in essence make DRob worth a forth round pick, much better then the current going price of a fifth. However, would Denver want to move up in the draft?

Harvlis, on March 23rd, 2008 at 11:59 am Said:
Jenkins has bounced back nicely the past two seasons playing every game and recording a total of 79 tackles and 5 1/2 sacks.
- D-Rob had 119 tackles and 6.5 sacks, in that same period. I hope Jenkins is a mauler but, this is an experiment. Same with Woody. Gave both these players lots of money after years of injury & mediocrity. Good luck, Tangini.

Drack, on March 20th, 2008 at 11:53 am Said:
There are some similarities brewing here between D-Rob’s situation and Pennington’s coming in to the 2006 season.

Pennington was coming off his second shoulder surgery that year and if memory serves, was due to make a hefty sum of money. There was no way he was going to make the same money on the open market if the Jets were to cut him, so he renegotiated his contract. For the most part, the compromise worked well for both Pennington and the Jets.

While D-Rob is not coming off a second major surgery like Pennington (far from it, in fact), medical issues are dogging him. Moreover, his abilities are somewhat in question — especially when his salary is taken into consideration. If both sides look at the situation rationally (a big “if” I know), a renegotiation can work for both parties.

Personally, I would like to see Robertson on the team. Used correctly, he can be a force (at the right price). The offense creates “situations” for Brad Smith and his skills. Why not do the same for Robertson, who I see having a greater impact on a game than Smith?

Najy, on March 20th, 2008 at 1:42 pm Said:
Keep D-Rob. Just renegotiate his contract. You cant never have enough quality d-linemen. D -rob is a quality player, just not suited to play nose every down. Renegotiate and use him on 3rd down and obvious passing situations cuz he can pressure the qb better than kris jenkins.

Mike G, on March 20th, 2008 at 2:32 pm Said:
Looks like the jets will either cut him and eat the 3 mil cap hit (even though in actuality they would be saving about 8 mil) or keep him and restructure his deal. We shouldnt just be ready to throw D-Rob out the door. If the jets cant trade him I hope they keep him rather than cut him, restructure his deal, and use him as depth on the d-line, hes still a talented player and could be valuable to our defense.

jvsvn, on March 20th, 2008 at 2:59 pm Said:
My comments may have sounded a little harsh. I actually like D-Rob as a player. I have always thought that he was misused and could be a really good player in the right situation. Was he worth the pick, no, but he is still a good player who got overcriticised because of his draft position. That wasn’t his decision. Here are my problems. 1) The Jets have already tried to trade him twice. 2) His sense of his own value is obviously above what anyone, including the Jets, seems willing to pay him. 3) the Jets need cap space. Now, everyone is right, he may come to his senses and change his negoiating tactics. If that happens, however, a team like Denver will probably be willing to trade and I think that would probaly be best. If he comes back now, he’ll be coming back to a team that has shown they don’t want him and then forced a contract down his throat (from his perspective). That is not a situation likely to produce a productive player. My whole point is that the Jets wasted some time and energy the last couple of years trying to fit some round pegs into some square holes (or maybe building square holes around some round pegs). It was a mistake. Not fatal, but a mistake. My position on D-Rob is that they should trade if they can or let him go on his way. Yes, it’s unfortunate that it has come to that. However, if he was a second round pick, I doubt many would be arguing with that.

Harvlis, on March 20th, 2008 at 10:52 pm Said:
For all of you D-Rob bashers, you might want to check his stats versus those of Kris Jenkins. Although, they are two different style players — D-rob is twice as active as Jenkins. In his entire career, Jenkins has never had double digit assists - D-Rob has averaged twenty three, for the past two years. The only year D-Rob didn’t have double digit assist was his rookie year. Jenkins averages about 40 total tackles per year — D-Rob averages over 50 total tackles (60 the past two years). In our best game of the past two years (the win at New England), D-Rob had six tackles and a sack and was named AFC Defensive Player of the Week. He was a good draft pick and has been a decent player. At a time that he should have been coming into his own, he has been playing out of position. He has played almost every game of his career and leaves it all out on the field. Instead of renegotiating and trying to keep him in the defensive rotation, our brilliant FO is trying to dispose of him as if he was last weeks garbage. As a result, they will get nothing back for him. They treated Vilma the same way. Two class individuals and quality players that we end up getting nothing back for. For a management team that seeks out quality, character type players - they are showing me that they have no class and are lacking in judgement of talent. As far as if DeWayne was a good draft pick, if I asked any of you who would be a better pro, Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey, and if they would ever be as good as D-Rob — you would all be guessing. I hope D-Rob gets the chance to show his detractors what kind of DT he can really be.

[Killericon]

ONE of our 2nd day picks?

Even Robertson's detractors have to admit that that would be mighty freaking sweet.

[BroncoInferno]

Anyone who has a problem spending a "late-round pick" (i.e. a 5th to 7th round choice) on Robertson is quite simply a moron. Injury questions or not, there is no downside at that price given what the typical 5th to 7th round choice produces.

[montrose]

Anyone who has a problem spending a "late-round pick" (i.e. a 5th to 7th round choice) on Robertson is quite simply a moron. Injury questions or not, there is no downside at that price given what the typical 5th to 7th round choice produces.

The draft pick isn't the main issue, it's his contract. In the best case scenario, he restructures his deal and has a great season - then the Broncos have to give him a big deal during an already daunting offseason. Unless Robertson is going to make the Broncos a SB contender (which I would highly doubt given the number of holes this 7-9 team has), or Robertson suddenly decides being a Denver Bronco is his dream and he's going to sign a multi-year deal with little guaranteed money, it's a very unwise move to bring him in at this juncture. Denver would be wiser to keep bring in a few youngsters to develop, then bring in a vet next offseason. Renting Robertson for a year is unwise seeing that 4th or 5th round pick could bring in a fullback, kick returner, kicker, punter, etc. If Robertson were to be locked up for a few seasons, it'd be a much different story.

[Paladin]

Anyone who has a problem spending a "late-round pick" (i.e. a 5th to 7th round choice) on Robertson is quite simply a moron. Injury questions or not, there is no downside at that price given what the typical 5th to 7th round choice produces.

Well, what if a 6th round RB is there?

On the whole I agree that a 6th pick has got a lot stacked agaisnt him, but there are a few out there that make it, even the UDFA' can make it. It really depends on the scouting system abd whether they can identify the players with talent or not.

I still have reservations, but then if the Broncos do it, it would be okay by me. We'll see if Robertson will redo his contract.....

[Killericon]

The draft pick isn't the main issue, it's his contract. In the best case scenario, he restructures his deal and has a great season - then the Broncos have to give him a big deal during an already daunting offseason. Unless Robertson is going to make the Broncos a SB contender (which I would highly doubt given the number of holes this 7-9 team has), or Robertson suddenly decides being a Denver Bronco is his dream and he's going to sign a multi-year deal with little guaranteed money, it's a very unwise move to bring him in at this juncture. Denver would be wiser to keep bring in a few youngsters to develop, then bring in a vet next offseason. Renting Robertson for a year is unwise seeing that 4th or 5th round pick could bring in a fullback, kick returner, kicker, punter, etc. If Robertson were to be locked up for a few seasons, it'd be a much different story.

Daunting? According to eddiemac(In his well-crafted analysis of the cap), all of our dead money goes off the books next year, and we should have $40 Million in room. It'll be daunting, but giving Robertson a big deal won't make it more daunting.

[montrose]

Daunting? According to eddiemac(In his well-crafted analysis of the cap), all of our dead money goes off the books next year, and we should have $40 Million in room. It'll be daunting, but giving Robertson a big deal won't make it more daunting.

The cap room isn't the issue, it's the guaranteed money. The Broncos should have plenty of room to sign Marshall, Dumervil, Scheffler, Williams, Kuper, etc; but if they'll have the guaranteed cash to pony up to all of those players in a booming market remains to be seen. A young WR with Marshall's credentials could net about $30 mil guaranteed in today's market, a pass-rusher like Dumervil I'll guesstimate at $25 mil guaranteed. Let's just say, very optimistically, both were willing to take $10 mil less to stay in Denver. That's $35 mil guaranteed between two players, and with both taking huge discounts to stay. Robertson plays a high-priced position as well, so he could easily pull some big bucks following a great season. The worst part is that all of these players are good young talents, the best players on our team for the most part, and we're still only 7-9 with a long way to go. That's why continuing to restock and draft well year after year until the right mixture is found is important, when that happens - bringing in vets to put us over the top will be much wiser.

[Killericon]

The cap room isn't the issue, it's the guaranteed money. The Broncos should have plenty of room to sign Marshall, Dumervil, Scheffler, Williams, Kuper, etc; but if they'll have the guaranteed cash to pony up to all of those players in a booming market remains to be seen. A young WR with Marshall's credentials could net about $30 mil guaranteed in today's market, a pass-rusher like Dumervil I'll guesstimate at $25 mil guaranteed. Let's just say, very optimistically, both were willing to take $10 mil less to stay in Denver. That's $35 mil guaranteed between two players, and with both taking huge discounts to stay. Robertson plays a high-priced position as well, so he could easily pull some big bucks following a great season. The worst part is that all of these players are good young talents, the best players on our team for the most part, and we're still only 7-9 with a long way to go. That's why continuing to restock and draft well year after year until the right mixture is found is important, when that happens - bringing in vets to put us over the top will be much wiser.

I've already responded to this. (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1900849#post1900849)

[Drek]

Well, what if a 6th round RB is there?

On the whole I agree that a 6th pick has got a lot stacked agaisnt him, but there are a few out there that make it, even the UDFA' can make it. It really depends on teh scouting suystem ad whether they can identify the players with talent or not.

I still have reservations, but then if teh Broncos do it, it would be olkay by me. We'll see if Robertson will redo hos contract.....

I'd bet that 50% of the guys we would be interested in for a 6th round pick go UDFA anyways, and 80% of guys we'd want in the 7th.

Robertson is also still quite young. Getting him is in effect building to the future. But I agree, he needs to be signed for a reasonable contract, something that protects us if his knees crap out.

[dbfan21]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_8818449

Up next
The next three weeks at Dove Valley will be devoted to the draft. The Broncos have the No. 12 and 42 overall picks on the first day, April 26.

On the second day, the Broncos hope to use one of their late-round picks to acquire Jets" defensive tackle Dewayne Robertson


Have they ironed out a contract? I have read at broncomania that they had. I have not seen anything here.

Smokescreen. This info was leaked so the other teams will think we aren't targeting DT in Rounds 1 and/or 2. Just a hunch!

[montrose]

I've already responded to this. (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1900849#post1900849)

I read your post and certainly think you make some valid points. However, we've got to look at the current juncture our team finds itself in. The three most important units to success in today's NFL are QB, OL and DL. The Broncos' two weakest units are OL and DL so common sense says you need to go improve those units. Unfortunately, everyone in the league know's these three positions are of the utmost importance which places a high value on those players. When the Broncos signed Jake Plummer in 2003 or traded for Champ Bailey in 2004, they had a strong foundation on the OL and an adequate group on the DL and were looking for skilled position players to net the team a championship - which it never did.

Today's Broncos have some talented, but inexperienced, players at skilled positions and a largely lackluster group on the OL and DL. The units are so porous, bringing in one or even two players is not going to make the team ultra competitive and only makes the team's upcoming financial situation that much more difficult. If this were a case of bring in Dwayne Robertson and we're challenging NE, SD and Indy, I'd be all for it. But the reality is we could bring in Albert Haynesworth or Kevin Williams and we're still not in the playoffs.

I completely understand your points, and I want the team to win as much anybody, but for every Brandon Stokley there's a Simeon Rice. Even a signing like Daniel Graham was a mistake because he's being overpaid at such an amount for his value, he puts the team in a difficult situation. Shanahan himself said that the team has made the mistake of putting too much stock into bringing in outside players and not focusing enough on the draft. I understand your argument of picks not working out but the reality is that every team has the same problems. If you want to compete with NE, Indy and SD; you need to look at how they build their teams. They drafted well, and consistently, in the trenches. Going out and getting a Dwayne Robertson does nothing but marginally help the team in the short term. Maybe his presence along with another rookie DT helps the team to an 8-8 or 9-7 record instead of 7-9. If that's your goal, to not suck, then go for it. But if your goal is to win titles, it's not a smart philosophy. Shanahan should, and it appears is, making every signing with 2010 and 2011 in mind instead of 2008.

I wish I could tell you bringing in Robertson for a mid-round pick is a small price to pay, he's going to improve our weakest position and suddenly we're going to be stopping the run while our CB's shut down the pass and our defense goes from abysmal to productive. I wish I could tell you the return of Tom Nalen and Ben Hamilton is going to improve our OL to where the running game returns to dominance and Jay has more-than enough time to get the ball out to our playmakers and our offense starts rolling up the points. I wish I could tell you just bringing in some FA's and traded players is all we need to get back to the Super Bowl. But unfortunately I can't. The truth is Robertson may help our run D to an extent but we're still going to give up a ton of points because our DL can't get consistent pressure on the passer and we don't have a safety to control the middle of the field. The truth is Nalen and Hamilton's return should help but even before their injuries the OL struggled in 2006 and 2007, all-the-while Denver will be going with some group of inexperienced players at LT and RT - not the formula for protecting a QB. And the truth is there aren't any players that can be brought in to take this 7-9 team that just lost it's clutch kicker to contention overnight.

It really, really sucked writing that.

[lex]

ONE of our 2nd day picks?

Even Robertson's detractors have to admit that that would be mighty freaking sweet.

Agreed. The contract is still rough though.

[DukeWoody]

It really, really sucked writing that.

LOL
The award for the longest post (although valid) of the month goes too!!

Excellent points about how all the top teams commonly build through the draft...

[broncosteven]

I don't care what they do at DT as long as we don't get run all over anymore.

I think "Duce Coyer" will blitz more for pressure anyway now that he has speed back at outside LB's.

[Killericon]

I read your post and certainly think you make some valid points. However, we've got to look at the current juncture our team finds itself in. The three most important units to success in today's NFL are QB, OL and DL. The Broncos' two weakest units are OL and DL so common sense says you need to go improve those units. Unfortunately, everyone in the league know's these three positions are of the utmost importance which places a high value on those players. When the Broncos signed Jake Plummer in 2003 or traded for Champ Bailey in 2004, they had a strong foundation on the OL and an adequate group on the DL and were looking for skilled position players to net the team a championship - which it never did.

Today's Broncos have some talented, but inexperienced, players at skilled positions and a largely lackluster group on the OL and DL. The units are so porous, bringing in one or even two players is not going to make the team ultra competitive and only makes the team's upcoming financial situation that much more difficult. If this were a case of bring in Dwayne Robertson and we're challenging NE, SD and Indy, I'd be all for it. But the reality is we could bring in Albert Haynesworth or Kevin Williams and we're still not in the playoffs.

I completely understand your points, and I want the team to win as much anybody, but for every Brandon Stokley there's a Simeon Rice. Even a signing like Daniel Graham was a mistake because he's being overpaid at such an amount for his value, he puts the team in a difficult situation. Shanahan himself said that the team has made the mistake of putting too much stock into bringing in outside players and not focusing enough on the draft. I understand your argument of picks not working out but the reality is that every team has the same problems. If you want to compete with NE, Indy and SD; you need to look at how they build their teams. They drafted well, and consistently, in the trenches. Going out and getting a Dwayne Robertson does nothing but marginally help the team in the short term. Maybe his presence along with another rookie DT helps the team to an 8-8 or 9-7 record instead of 7-9. If that's your goal, to not suck, then go for it. But if your goal is to win titles, it's not a smart philosophy. Shanahan should, and it appears is, making every signing with 2010 and 2011 in mind instead of 2008.

I wish I could tell you bringing in Robertson for a mid-round pick is a small price to pay, he's going to improve our weakest position and suddenly we're going to be stopping the run while our CB's shut down the pass and our defense goes from abysmal to productive. I wish I could tell you the return of Tom Nalen and Ben Hamilton is going to improve our OL to where the running game returns to dominance and Jay has more-than enough time to get the ball out to our playmakers and our offense starts rolling up the points. I wish I could tell you just bringing in some FA's and traded players is all we need to get back to the Super Bowl. But unfortunately I can't. The truth is Robertson may help our run D to an extent but we're still going to give up a ton of points because our DL can't get consistent pressure on the passer and we don't have a safety to control the middle of the field. The truth is Nalen and Hamilton's return should help but even before their injuries the OL struggled in 2006 and 2007, all-the-while Denver will be going with some group of inexperienced players at LT and RT - not the formula for protecting a QB. And the truth is there aren't any players that can be brought in to take this 7-9 team that just lost it's clutch kicker to contention overnight.

It really, really sucked writing that.

I agree with what you're saying about our current position. You're right on the money. However, Robertson is a bit different(Although that post was talking about Stroud).

I just think that a 2nd day pick will get us more in DeWayne Robertson than it would in whoever else we'd take with that pick... For now, and in the long-term. I think that the whispers and conjecture of the Broncos being strapped for cash is crap, and considering the fact that we will have plenty of cap room next year(not to mention the prospect of an uncapped year coming up soon) I don't consider giving Robertson a big contract that big of an obstacle. Sure, Bowlen is pulling the purse strings, but I don't think that we're in the hunt for anyone else who needs a big signing bonus this offseason, and if the deal happens and a contract is signed, then Bowlen gave the stamp of approval. If we give Robertson a big bonus this year, then next year we can still go shopping(If we want). We gave Warren a decently big contract, and all things considered, that did not hurt us much. I'm not talking about him washing out, or his negative play, I'm only talking about his contract's damage. DeWayne is 26. If we want to plan to be competitive in say, 2 seasons, then he'll be 29 come October 2010. He'll still be in his prime.

I don't think giving him a new contract is that big of a deal. I think that we could either get a 4th round DT who is 23 or we could get a 4th overall DT who is 26.

You gotta start rebuilding somewhere, and it doesn't have to be all in the draft. This is a cheap move for a young player with a ****load of upside. I think it's a no-brainer.

Bear in mind, if we did this deal, I'd still want us to take a DT 2nd day. I think that little of our current DT crew.

[Atlas]

The draft pick isn't the main issue, it's his contract. In the best case scenario, he restructures his deal and has a great season - then the Broncos have to give him a big deal during an already daunting offseason. Unless Robertson is going to make the Broncos a SB contender (which I would highly doubt given the number of holes this 7-9 team has), or Robertson suddenly decides being a Denver Bronco is his dream and he's going to sign a multi-year deal with little guaranteed money, it's a very unwise move to bring him in at this juncture. Denver would be wiser to keep bring in a few youngsters to develop, then bring in a vet next offseason. Renting Robertson for a year is unwise seeing that 4th or 5th round pick could bring in a fullback, kick returner, kicker, punter, etc. If Robertson were to be locked up for a few seasons, it'd be a much different story.


You act like Bowlen is spending your money. WTF do you care what Robertson costs. The salary cap doesn't mean anything. Denver can rearrange any contract they want to. It's just monopoly money. Especially if there is a work stoppage. All they salary caps will go out the window.

Don't worry about how much money Robertson is going to make. I mean hell the Raiders paid a DE that isn't near the caliber that Robertson is $55 million it don't mean a thing. Shanny and Bowlen have people much smarter than you working and worrying about the cap.

[broncofan7]

beside being a free agent, versus aquiring via trade, could D-WAYNE end up another MDP? older DT that eventually proved to be nothing but a stop gap?

[CBF1]

You act like Bowlen is spending your money. WTF do you care what Robertson costs. The salary cap doesn't mean anything. Denver can rearrange any contract they want to. It's just monopoly money. Especially if there is a work stoppage. All they salary caps will go out the window.

Don't worry about how much money Robertson is going to make. I mean hell the Raiders paid a DE that isn't near the caliber that Robertson is $55 million it don't mean a thing. Shanny and Bowlen have people much smarter than you working and worrying about the cap.


I thought we were going to keep it a secret that I am working for Shanny and Bowlen ROFL!

On another topic on this thread about having 80 players on the roster.... Half of the 80 would not be on another teams roster. Just cut the camp fodder and draft away.

[montrose]

I just think that a 2nd day pick will get us more in DeWayne Robertson than it would in whoever else we'd take with that

You may very well be right. Although I do think we have unique needs this offseason (such as a K and P) that make those 2nd day picks more valuable to us than they have been in past years. With that, I very much believe Robertson is likely to be more productive than the player selected with that pick.

For now, and in the long-term.

For now, yes. For the long term, depends on how much cash Bowlen is willing to dish out and considering his recent comments - I'm fearful of that.

I think that the whispers and conjecture of the Broncos being strapped for cash is crap

I agree in part. I certainly don't think the team is in much worse financial shape than it's been under Bowlen. However, I do think Bowlen's recent comments shed some light into his thoughts on paying for players - http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_8765200.

Considering the fact that we will have plenty of cap room next year(not to mention the prospect of an uncapped year coming up soon) I don't consider giving Robertson a big contract that big of an obstacle.

I would agree with you if Brandon Marshall, Elvis Dumervil, Tony Scheffler, Chris Kuper, DJ Williams, Domonique Foxworth and Karl Paymah weren't all coming up free agency during the same time period. And even in past years I would agree it shouldn't be a problem but given the boom of the market for overpaying guys that aren't even that productive, this crop is going to net some serious dough. This again considering Bowlen's recent comments about player salaries. Robertson is just another name to add to that list. Now if you're willing to keep Robertson (assuming he has a productive 2008) at the expensive of say Dumervil (seeing he's another DL and you've got money/picks tied up in others at the position), then that's all good. Unfortunately from a football standpoint, no player other than Niko Koutovides stands to benefit as much from Robertson's arrival than Dumervil.

I don't think that we're in the hunt for anyone else who needs a big signing bonus this offseason

We're not, although I think it would be wise and cost effective to sign Williams an extension now.

If we give Robertson a big bonus this year, then next year we can still go shopping(If we want). We gave Warren a decently big contract, and all things considered, that did not hurt us much.

I'm no cap expert but I'm thinking we'd be looking to bring in Robertson on a restructured deal that essentially amounted to a one year deal with option bonuses for the next few years (see Javon Walker). That would protect the Broncos in case of a lack of production or the knee acts up (sound familiar?).

If we want to plan to be competitive in say, 2 seasons, then he'll be 29 come October 2010. He'll still be in his prime.

Sure, although keep in mind he does have his knee issue and DT is a very physically demanding position. With that, I agree that 2 seasons from now he should still be productive.

I think that we could either get a 4th round DT who is 23 or we could get a 4th overall DT who is 26.

You're right in that respect. But there's no telling what we'd do with that 4th round pick. It could be a DT, or a K, or FB; we just don't know. With that, I will certainly agree that Robertson is likely to more productive in 2008 than any DT picked in round 4.

You gotta start rebuilding somewhere, and it doesn't have to be all in the draft.

Absolutely. I think the cost-effective signings of Koutovides and Kerry Colbert are examples of bringing in young players with potential and reasonable costs.

This is a cheap move for a young player with a ****load of upside. I think it's a no-brainer.

Killericon? Are you sure I'm not talking to Mike Shanahan? Haha, I see your point although I think I made enough of an argument to make the decision more debatable than a no-brainer.

Bear in mind, if we did this deal, I'd still want us to take a DT 2nd day. I think that little of our current DT crew.

Sure thing, I actually want us to attack the DT position in the draft the same way we did CB in 2005. I'd love to bring in 3 DT's via the draft, if Robertson is one of them via trade - so be it. It's not the end of the world, but it wouldn't be my choice at this juncture.

You act like Bowlen is spending your money. WTF do you care what Robertson costs.

Because I'm a die-hard Bronco fan who doesn't want to see us lose part of our talented young nucleus and based on Bowlen's comments, Shanahan's comments and the team's recent actions - the Broncos are being more conservative with money.

The salary cap doesn't mean anything. Denver can rearrange any contract they want to. It's just monopoly money. Especially if there is a work stoppage. All they salary caps will go out the window.

I'm not worried about the cap, I'm more worried about the guaranteed money that will have to be dished out next year.

Don't worry about how much money Robertson is going to make. I mean hell the Raiders paid a DE that isn't near the caliber that Robertson is $55 million it don't mean a thing.

It means a lot, it only takes one team willing to overpay for a guy to drive up the market, that's economics my friend. This is particularly an issue when one of those teams willing to overspend is your hated rival who'd love nothing more than to throw big money at one of your talented youngsters like Brandon Marshall or Elvis Dumervil if for no other reason than to drive up the price you have to pay.

Shanny and Bowlen have people much smarter than you working and worrying about the cap.

I'm not going to fight you on that one bro. I'm far from an expert on the cap, or the NFL for that matter. I'm merely a former DIII football player who is observant in watching the trends in the league and want the same thing you want - the Lombardi Trophy to come back to Denver.

[Paladin]

Smokescreen. This info was leaked so the other teams will think we aren't targeting DT in Rounds 1 and/or 2. Just a hunch!

I doubt there the Broncos had any plans to take a DT in the first. There is no one to take at 12 that would be a "value" pick, remember?

Drafting a DT in the fourth would not be out of the quesiton. I have no idea who would be there, but I would bet there would be at least one.....

[Punisher]

I'm all for bringing this guy in,but we need to fix that contract of his

[Cito Pelon]

The guy failed his physical, so is this report really accurate, or just speculation?

[oubronco]

I would rather us trade our 12th pick, foxworth, and the late pick to the
Ravens. Then pick Ellis from USC. Makes perfect sense to me... any takers??

I'd be ok with this but I'd like to keep Foxworth

[Dos Rios]

Anyone have the complete list of "Courtney Brown All Stars"? First rounders Denver nabbed after disappointment elsewhere. I wonder if a full team could be fielded:

Wash Outs

Courtney Brown
David Terrell
John Avery

Contributors
Gerard Warren
Ebenezer Ekuban
Patrick Ramsey

Who else?

[Beantown Bronco]

Daryl Gardener

[Hulamau]

.

I wish I could tell you bringing in Robertson for a mid-round pick is a small price to pay, he's going to improve our weakest position and suddenly we're going to be stopping the run while our CB's shut down the pass and our defense goes from abysmal to productive. I wish I could tell you the return of Tom Nalen and Ben Hamilton is going to improve our OL to where the running game returns to dominance and Jay has more-than enough time to get the ball out to our playmakers and our offense starts rolling up the points. I wish I could tell you just bringing in some FA's and traded players is all we need to get back to the Super Bowl. But unfortunately I can't. The truth is Robertson may help our run D to an extent but we're still going to give up a ton of points because our DL can't get consistent pressure on the passer and we don't have a safety to control the middle of the field. The truth is Nalen and Hamilton's return should help but even before their injuries the OL struggled in 2006 and 2007, all-the-while Denver will be going with some group of inexperienced players at LT and RT - not the formula for protecting a QB. And the truth is there aren't any players that can be brought in to take this 7-9 team that just lost it's clutch kicker to contention overnight.

It really, really sucked writing that.

I think you are looking at the glass too half empty than is warranted Montrose. Nothing is static, including the fact that we can expect big second year leaps in performance from a lot of young players. Thomas, Harris, Moss, Crowder, even Kuper and Elvis as a third year studs, Marshall and Scheff ... S. Young and Cutler most of all!

If you are thinking in only ideal terms, then no, we cant fill the cupboard in one year by any means. Neither can most other teams out there. But the fact is, the last two drafts have been more than decent and they are going to start paying off this year!

Also, so much of our defensive problems last year were due to the wrong scheme with the wrong mix of players .. not to mention the chaos of a scheme that changed every few week at that!!! That lost the confidence and focus of many of the veteran players, much less the rookies! At least this year, it will be a scheme more suited to the personnel, and a STABLE one, which in itself will make our D at least look more like 2005/2006 than 2007.

Add to that the significant second/third yr improvements in Moss, Elvis, Crowder and Thomas .... and our whole front seven should tackle better at the least as it is. Add D-Rob and possibly Ellis (or Dorsey please God!) at #6 in the trade scenario outlined by the Jets fans and we suddenly are in business!

Anyway, together with the stable scheme, our legitimate improvements in the defense as is should be worth at least two or three more wins and making the playoffs. Niko IS going to work out at Middle LB in a solid way, and Boss with the incentive of his brother on the team is going to far exceed Webster of last year, and with DJ back in his more natural element in place of the human sieve knows as Ian Gold last year, I expect big things from the LB corp just as it is.

The key is, does Shanny have full confidence that Kuper/Harris can perform at least like a Lepsis in 2005/2006 before he got injured? If so then we can go Dline in the draft and pull the trigger on the D-rob trade.

Assuming we have better injury luck on the Oline this year ( a safe bet I trust) we ARE going to make real strides there as well with Nalen, C Weigman and Hamilton.

Along with what I expect will be a big jump for Cutler and the rest of the Offense, particularly with good injury luck with Colbert, Stokley, Marshall & Scheff, we should then win at least two more games on the offensive side of the ball giving us 4 to 5 more total wins and a solid shot at moving deep in the playoffs, perhaps even the AFC championship game.

Granted a number of things have to go right for that to happen, and a few key injuries and/or a couple of these guys screwing up can undermine the whole scenario, but its easily within the realm of possibilities!

Then with picking up a quality safety, O tackle/center/ D tackle/ Linebacker/running back in the 09 & 10 drafts, as well as a few key free agents along the way, there is no reason on earth why we cant hit the big dance by 2010, 2011...with a little luck maybe even 2009!

Its not so gloomy as it seems from the bottom of the glass, but we do have to complete the Dline and protect Cutler ... all else flows naturally from that!

And I still think somehow (in my dreams) landing Rashad Mendenhall would be a killer move for us for the next ten years!

[bowtown]

Anyone have the complete list of "Courtney Brown All Stars"? First rounders Denver nabbed after disappointment elsewhere. I wonder if a full team could be fielded:

Wash Outs

Courtney Brown
David Terrell
John Avery

Contributors
Gerard Warren
Ebenezer Ekuban
Patrick Ramsey

Who else?

Courtney Brown was not a wash out. He was a big reason the line was good enough to get us to the AFC Championship game. Unfortunately, because of his injury problems, one great year was all he could give. That's not a washout like the others though, and he certainly shouldn't be the poster child for that team.

[montrose]

I think you are looking at the glass too half empty than is warranted Montrose. Nothing is static, including the fact that we can expect big second year leaps in performance from a lot of young players. Thomas, Harris, Moss, Crowder, even Kuper and Elvis as a third year studs, Marshall and Scheff ... S. Young and Cutler most of all!

If you are thinking in only ideal terms, then no, we cant fill the cupboard in one year by any means. Neither can most other teams out there. But the fact is, the last two drafts have been more than decent and they are going to start paying off this year!

Also, so much of our defensive problems last year were due to the wrong scheme with the wrong mix of players .. not to mention the chaos of a scheme that changed every few week at that!!! That lost the confidence and focus of many of the veteran players, much less the rookies! At least this year, it will be a scheme more suited to the personnel, and a STABLE one, which in itself will make our D at least look more like 2005/2006 than 2007.

Add to that the significant second/third yr improvements in Moss, Elvis, Crowder and Thomas .... and our whole front seven should tackle better at the least as it is. Add D-Rob and possibly Ellis (or Dorsey please God!) at #6 in the trade scenario outlined by the Jets fans and we suddenly are in business!

Anyway, together with the stable scheme, our legitimate improvements in the defense as is should be worth at least two or three more wins and making the playoffs. Niko IS going to work out at Middle LB in a solid way, and Boss with the incentive of his brother on the team is going to far exceed Webster of last year, and with DJ back in his more natural element in place of the human sieve knows as Ian Gold last year, I expect big things from the LB corp just as it is.

The key is, does Shanny have full confidence that Kuper/Harris can perform at least like a Lepsis in 2005/2006 before he got injured? If so then we can go Dline in the draft and pull the trigger on the D-rob trade.

Assuming we have better injury luck on the Oline this year ( a safe bet I trust) we ARE going to make real strides there as well with Nalen, C Weigman and Hamilton.

Along with what I expect will be a big jump for Cutler and the rest of the Offense, particularly with good injury luck with Colbert, Stokley, Marshall & Scheff, we should then win at least two more games on the offensive side of the ball giving us 4 to 5 more total wins and a solid shot at moving deep in the playoffs, perhaps even the AFC championship game.

Granted a number of things have to go right for that to happen, and a few key injuries and/or a couple of these guys screwing up can undermine the whole scenario, but its easily within the realm of possibilities!

Then with picking up a quality safety, O tackle/center/ D tackle/ Linebacker/running back in the 09 & 10 drafts, as well as a few key free agents along the way, there is no reason on earth why we cant hit the big dance by 2010, 2011...with a little luck maybe even 2009!

Its not so gloomy as it seems from the bottom of the glass, but we do have to complete the Dline and protect Cutler ... all else flows naturally from that!

And I still think somehow (in my dreams) landing Rashad Mendenhall would be a killer move for us for the next ten years!

No, no, no. I don't want anyone to think I have negative feelings about the Broncos. Far from it. I'm more excited about where we are than at any other time since the SB years. I think we've got incredible young talent at several key positions and I absolutely love the fact we've seemed to adjust our offseason strategy to one that's geared towards building for the long term. I truly believe we'll be a SB contender by 2010/2011 barring something crazy happening.

I'm just not optimistic on 2008 being a strong season for the team from a W-L perspective but it's extremely important to continue building chemistry and experience amongst the young roster. I can see the team being improved from last year but that doesn't guaranteed wins. Oakland has improved to the point where they're a threat to at least split and San Diego is likely to be more consistent in year 2 under Norv. In addition, we've got some tough games against New Orleans, Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, New England and Cleveland. I wouldn't throw out the possiblity that the team could play much better this season and still finish 7-9 or 8-8. But please don't confuse me for being frustrated or disappointed, I'm far from it.

[rubaiyat]

I just can't see how upset people can get about this. The guy has never missed any playing time and it looks like we'll be using a 2nd day pick to bring him in.
He seems to be fairly well respected by those who watched him play closely.

We've got absolutely nothing on the D-line. Nothing.

Taking a swing at a guy for a middle-round pick is just not a big deal either way. The potential upside is obvious. The potential downside is obvious... and limited.

It's a well-hedged bet at a position of desperate need.

Though the first day is just the first two rounds now right?

[Hulamau]

No, no, no. I don't want anyone to think I have negative feelings about the Broncos. Far from it. I'm more excited about where we are than at any other time since the SB years. I think we've got incredible young talent at several key positions and I absolutely love the fact we've seemed to adjust our offseason strategy to one that's geared towards building for the long term. I truly believe we'll be a SB contender by 2010/2011 barring something crazy happening.

I'm just not optimistic on 2008 being a strong season for the team from a W-L perspective but it's extremely important to continue building chemistry and experience amongst the young roster. I can see the team being improved from last year but that doesn't guaranteed wins. Oakland has improved to the point where they're a threat to at least split and San Diego is likely to be more consistent in year 2 under Norv. In addition, we've got some tough games against New Orleans, Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, New England and Cleveland. I wouldn't throw out the possiblity that the team could play much better this season and still finish 7-9 or 8-8. But please don't confuse me for being frustrated or disappointed, I'm far from it.

Fair Enough Montrose but if we protect Cutler and play half way decent defense there is no reason we don't make the playoffs this year and make a serious run in 09 to 10. But i hear that your aren't too negative either.

[Dos Rios]

Courtney Brown was not a wash out. He was a big reason the line was good enough to get us to the AFC Championship game. Unfortunately, because of his injury problems, one great year was all he could give. That's not a washout like the others though, and he certainly shouldn't be the poster child for that team.

Fair enough. I liked Courtney quite a bit and only make him the poster child because he was the #1 overall pick. Along with the misses, Denver's also had some success when acquiring former first rounders (Champ, anyone?). The only point is that former first rounders on the move get a long, long look from Denver. Even those that (unlike Champ) fell short in their first NFL home.

Back to the Robertson discussion.

[p7superfly]

I say - hell, do it.

Nab Chris Henry, too.

Let's go for broke. Anything short of a shooting - I'm good with. Marshall's a question mark for the time-being.

[DBBBSBS]

I say - hell, do it.

Nab Chris Henry, too.

Let's go for broke. Anything short of a shooting - I'm good with. Marshall's a question mark for the time-being.

i think there is a reason people in this group say... 100 post rule!!!!!

[BroncoInferno]

The draft pick isn't the main issue, it's his contract.

I have to chuckle every time someone brings up money re: the Broncos. Everyone has lived in fear of cap hell since the salary cap came into play, and we've never fallen into that trap. Say what you will about personnel decisions, but the staff knows how to work the cap. How bout let the experts who have proven savvy in that department worry about contracts?

[NFLBRONCO]

Another thing that concerns me is Denver might focus on this so much that they avoid going DT in the draft all together.

[Killericon]

No, no, no. I don't want anyone to think I have negative feelings about the Broncos. Far from it. I'm more excited about where we are than at any other time since the SB years. I think we've got incredible young talent at several key positions and I absolutely love the fact we've seemed to adjust our offseason strategy to one that's geared towards building for the long term. I truly believe we'll be a SB contender by 2010/2011 barring something crazy happening.

I'm just not optimistic on 2008 being a strong season for the team from a W-L perspective but it's extremely important to continue building chemistry and experience amongst the young roster. I can see the team being improved from last year but that doesn't guaranteed wins. Oakland has improved to the point where they're a threat to at least split and San Diego is likely to be more consistent in year 2 under Norv. In addition, we've got some tough games against New Orleans, Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, New England and Cleveland. I wouldn't throw out the possiblity that the team could play much better this season and still finish 7-9 or 8-8. But please don't confuse me for being frustrated or disappointed, I'm far from it.

Let's hypothesize that we do the trade for Robertson. We give him a big, fat deal with an opt-out after one year structure, not unlike Walker's deal. Robertson can either A) Play to the point where keeping him is worth it or B) Play crappy, and we let him go. If A happens, then suddenly, we have a 27 year old defensive tackle who is worth a big time contract, which I have personally though to be our team's biggest need across the past 4 offseasons.

Just out of curiosity, who do you think will need new, big contracts next year? Off the top of my head...Williams, Marshall, and Dumervil will need big guaranteed $$$. Anyone else? I'm just talking about next year, remember.

[TheReverend]

Let's hypothesize that we do the trade for Robertson. We give him a big, fat deal with an opt-out after one year structure, not unlike Walker's deal. Robertson can either A) Play to the point where keeping him is worth it or B) Play crappy, and we let him go. If A happens, then suddenly, we have a 27 year old defensive tackle who is worth a big time contract, which I have personally though to be our team's biggest need across the past 4 offseasons.

Just out of curiosity, who do you think will need new, big contracts next year? Off the top of my head...Williams, Marshall, and Dumervil will need big guaranteed $$$. Anyone else? I'm just talking about next year, remember.

Because then he'll be getting a huge signing bonus the same off-season the team will need to crack out extensions for Marshall, Scheffler, Dumervil, etc.

[Killericon]

Because then he'll be getting a huge signing bonus the same off-season the team will need to crack out extensions for Marshall, Scheffler, Dumervil, etc.

Who is Etc.? Wow much money do you guys suspect that we will be handing out next offseason?

If we cannot handle paying DeWayne and all our current awesome players, then he can be cut or traded. If he's played well, trading him should get us something similar to what we handed out. If he sucks, then we cut him. No harm, no foul, except the lost 2ND DAY PICK!

[montrose]

I have to chuckle every time someone brings up money re: the Broncos. Everyone has lived in fear of cap hell since the salary cap came into play, and we've never fallen into that trap. Say what you will about personnel decisions, but the staff knows how to work the cap. How bout let the experts who have proven savvy in that department worry about contracts?

Once again, I'm not worried about the cap. I'm simply worried that with so many players coming up for FA at the same time, and Bowlen possibly putting his foot down on spending, we're going to lose someone because of the sheer amount of guaranteed money being thrown around, that's all. If Al Davis decides to offer BMarsh over $30 million in guarantees (which isn't out of the questions considering his recent moves) and another pass-rush needy team offers Dumervil the same amount (again very possible considering the over-paying on the market for pass-rushers), is Bowlen cool dishing out $60 million for two guys? I just don't know. Remember, the guys you're seeing getting overpaid on the market are largely overrated whereas BMarsh and Dumervil are talented players at key positions - and they're very young.

Just out of curiosity, who do you think will need new, big contracts next year? Off the top of my head...Williams, Marshall, and Dumervil will need big guaranteed $$$. Anyone else? I'm just talking about next year, remember.

Well, Brandon Marshall, Tony Scheffler, Elvis Dumervil, Chris Kuper and Selvin Young will all become RFA's after next season; DJ Williams and Ben Hamilton will become UFA's that offseason and Champ Bailey's base salary jumps $3 million.

Looking at those players: Marshall (making the huge assumption he returns from injury and at least matches last year's production) would likely be 1st in line for an extension as he'd be the league's most underpaid player. Letting him become a RFA is a huge risk, even at the highest tender, as any team could throw ridiculous money at him. Dumervil is next on the list for the same reasons although Denver may be willing to let him become a RFA and tender him high to see if a team is willing to give the team a 1st and 3rd for a pass-rush specialist, especially if Jarvis Moss pans out. With that, the team would likely to want to keep him and, just as with Marshall, if he has a productive 2008 - he'd be extremely underpaid and in line for a new deal. Both Marshall and Dumervil would be prime holdout candidates for next season if they don't have new deals. Scheffler is the least concerning as TE's are vastly underpaid relative to the market. Denver can let him become a RFA, tender him and even franchise him the next year - hell LJ Smith was franchised and only got $5 million I believe. Considering so much was paid to Daniel Graham, the Broncos will likely put off Scheffler the longest unless he's willing to take way below market value to get his deal done sooner. Kuper's deal is tough as it depends on where the Broncos play him. If he's at guard, it won't be too tough and they can wait it out until after his RFA tendered year. If he's at tackle, particularly LT, it will be tougher and more expensive. If Kuper starts, and plays well, at tackle this season - he'll jump to the front of the line with Marshall and Dumervil needing a new deal next offseason. Young isn't a huge concern as the Broncos history of RB's shows they can just bring in someone else, they'll likely wait until his RFA-tendered season as well. Looking at Hamilton (another assumption of health), you're looking at the team's most senior OL and replacement for Nalen at that point of time. Working for the Broncos is that he's not much of a fit elsewhere other than Houston, so he shouldn't be terribly expensive to keep. Williams could be a nightmare to get done. He's been moved around year after year but been productive at every spot and has tremendous value around the league as a young and experienced WLB. If Williams plays as well as I think he will back at WLB, and following a season at MLB in which he was 2nd in the league in tackles, he'd be in a prime position to garner a new deal after the season as Denver would like to avoid franchising him or allowing him to become a FA the same offseason as the others. I mentioned Champ's salary bump, which is also his contract year, as Broncos protocol says that would be the time (if not beforehand) to redo his deal with less base salary and larger sum of guaranteed money. Champ may not be playing at as high of a level at that time, but CB's generally have long careers and it's likely the Broncos will want to keep him.

Assuming they sign one year tenders, Domonique Foxworth, Karl Paymah and Hamza Abdullah will be UFA's after this season. Denver will likely have to make a choice among Foxworth and Paymah, depending on which plays better this season. That player will have to be paid as a starting CB, especially considering Dre' Bly should be on his way out around that time. If Abdullah starts and plays well in 2008, he's another young and experienced player to sign but safety isn't as premium a position to sign. However, with so many other guys to sign, he'd be an easy one to slip through the cracks.

So don't just think in terms of next offseason, but the next 2-3. And keep in mind all of this is not factoring in any new FA acquisitions as well as draft picks. If the team as another sub .500 season, it may be hard for Bowlen to justify paying a ton of money simply to keep the same team together, even if they are young and talented. Also, rebuilding teams generally have higher draft choices which means more money for signing bonuses as well. Finally, the CBA situation hangs over our heads and I have no idea how that could effect all of this as well.

[Killericon]

Once again, I'm not worried about the cap. I'm simply worried that with so many players coming up for FA at the same time, and Bowlen possibly putting his foot down on spending, we're going to lose someone because of the sheer amount of guaranteed money being thrown around, that's all. If Al Davis decides to offer BMarsh over $30 million in guarantees (which isn't out of the questions considering his recent moves) and another pass-rush needy team offers Dumervil the same amount (again very possible considering the over-paying on the market for pass-rushers), is Bowlen cool dishing out $60 million for two guys? I just don't know. Remember, the guys you're seeing getting overpaid on the market are largely overrated whereas BMarsh and Dumervil are talented players at key positions - and they're very young.



Well, Brandon Marshall, Tony Scheffler, Elvis Dumervil, Chris Kuper and Selvin Young will all become RFA's after next season; DJ Williams and Ben Hamilton will become UFA's that offseason and Champ Bailey's base salary jumps $3 million.

Looking at those players: Marshall (making the huge assumption he returns from injury and at least matches last year's production) would likely be 1st in line for an extension as he'd be the league's most underpaid player. Letting him become a RFA is a huge risk, even at the highest tender, as any team could throw ridiculous money at him. Dumervil is next on the list for the same reasons although Denver may be willing to let him become a RFA and tender him high to see if a team is willing to give the team a 1st and 3rd for a pass-rush specialist, especially if Jarvis Moss pans out. With that, the team would likely to want to keep him and, just as with Marshall, if he has a productive 2008 - he'd be extremely underpaid and in line for a new deal. Both Marshall and Dumervil would be prime holdout candidates for next season if they don't have new deals. Scheffler is the least concerning as TE's are vastly underpaid relative to the market. Denver can let him become a RFA, tender him and even franchise him the next year - hell LJ Smith was franchised and only got $5 million I believe. Considering so much was paid to Daniel Graham, the Broncos will likely put off Scheffler the longest unless he's willing to take way below market value to get his deal done sooner. Kuper's deal is tough as it depends on where the Broncos play him. If he's at guard, it won't be too tough and they can wait it out until after his RFA tendered year. If he's at tackle, particularly LT, it will be tougher and more expensive. If Kuper starts, and plays well, at tackle this season - he'll jump to the front of the line with Marshall and Dumervil needing a new deal next offseason. Young isn't a huge concern as the Broncos history of RB's shows they can just bring in someone else, they'll likely wait until his RFA-tendered season as well. Looking at Hamilton (another assumption of health), you're looking at the team's most senior OL and replacement for Nalen at that point of time. Working for the Broncos is that he's not much of a fit elsewhere other than Houston, so he shouldn't be terribly expensive to keep. Williams could be a nightmare to get done. He's been moved around year after year but been productive at every spot and has tremendous value around the league as a young and experienced WLB. If Williams plays as well as I think he will back at WLB, and following a season at MLB in which he was 2nd in the league in tackles, he'd be in a prime position to garner a new deal after the season as Denver would like to avoid franchising him or allowing him to become a FA the same offseason as the others. I mentioned Champ's salary bump, which is also his contract year, as Broncos protocol says that would be the time (if not beforehand) to redo his deal with less base salary and larger sum of guaranteed money. Champ may not be playing at as high of a level at that time, but CB's generally have long careers and it's likely the Broncos will want to keep him.

Assuming they sign one year tenders, Domonique Foxworth, Karl Paymah and Hamza Abdullah will be UFA's after this season. Denver will likely have to make a choice among Foxworth and Paymah, depending on which plays better this season. That player will have to be paid as a starting CB, especially considering Dre' Bly should be on his way out around that time. If Abdullah starts and plays well in 2008, he's another young and experienced player to sign but safety isn't as premium a position to sign. However, with so many other guys to sign, he'd be an easy one to slip through the cracks.

So don't just think in terms of next offseason, but the next 2-3. And keep in mind all of this is not factoring in any new FA acquisitions as well as draft picks. If the team as another sub .500 season, it may be hard for Bowlen to justify paying a ton of money simply to keep the same team together, even if they are young and talented. Also, rebuilding teams generally have higher draft choices which means more money for signing bonuses as well. Finally, the CBA situation hangs over our heads and I have no idea how that could effect all of this as well.

I don't think it's a valid comparison to look at players on the open market and make comparisons to players who are resigning. If these players are willing to resign, then it'll be for less than what they'd get on the open market. It always is. As far as Williams goes, he's not going to get much. Briggs got 36 Million over 6. Dumervil and Brandon will get hefty, hefty contracts, no denying that. We can tender Young, and either scenario(He signs, or we get a pick from him) is a win for us. I'm worried about Scheffler...If he posts another season like he did this year, I think the FO will have to decide between him and Graham, and I can only hope they pick Tony. I think that we would either let Hamilton walk, or that he'd resign for a negligible amount.

When I keep referencing how we'll be far under the Cap, I also mean that we'll be on the books for much less money as well.

I have faith in Bowlen. We've had the fortune of having a staff smart enough to make room for key players, and an owner willing to pick up the tab to keep the good players in town.

I guess my point is that we are in sore need of a competent defensive tackle.

Scratch that. We are in need of two competent defensive tackles. While it's nice to hypothesize that Thomas will make a good undertackle, and that he'll stay out of trouble, I think that it's wise to plan for the opposite to occur.

SO, if we trade for Robertson, and he plays as well as he did in NY, I think that his value would be greater than say, Dre Bly's or Daniel Graham's, if it came to a number crunch, and I would support cutting those guys over moving Robertson.

I honestly believe that Bowlen would never tell Shanahan to let a guy like Dumervil or Marshall walk because he didn't want to fork over the cash. I think that him pulling the purse strings this offseason isn't him being cheap, it's him being smart. He looked at the talent out there and said "I don't want to give these guys my money." while knowing that his money would be needed to keep the younger, superior players already on the roster around. I know that's the point that you're making, but if the Robertson trade happens, then the people in the Denver FO, Bowlen included, looked at how much they will need to pay the young core, looked at how much Robertson will get, looked at how much he(Bowlen) was willing to dish out and decided that they could make it work.

If the trade doesn't happen because they can't make it work from a fiscal point of view, then I'm behind the decision...But I don't buy that. I think the only thing thats holding this trade back is a bit of gun-shyness over Robertson's injury concerns. If that is the case(Which I think it to be), then Bowlen has already said that he'd be fine with giving him a fat contract, and that the cap wizards in the FO think that they can give him said contract without jeopardizing out current roster. My point is that if that is true(which, again, I think it to be) then I want us to pull the trigger, even with Robertson's injury concerns.

[TheReverend]

Who is Etc.? Wow much money do you guys suspect that we will be handing out next offseason?

If we cannot handle paying DeWayne and all our current awesome players, then he can be cut or traded. If he's played well, trading him should get us something similar to what we handed out. If he sucks, then we cut him. No harm, no foul, except the lost 2ND DAY PICK!

I think you're downplaying the level of cost re-signing Brandon and Elvis alone will cost. If you thought Dan Graham and Henry ate up cap space, imagine a premier WR and pass rusher in one sitting. Then slide a top receiving TE into that same list along with solid money for Kuper.

It's also 50/50 on whether or not they pursue resigning DJ... if they do, that's even more money off the books. If Den drafts Rivers, however, we can kiss DJ goodbye.

As for your plan on bringing him in on essentially the same incentive contract Javon started with... why would he agree to that? He's in a spot now where controls his destiny. He can refuse to renegotiate and be cut by the Jets and hit a market that saw Tommy Kelly get a ****ton of money. He doesn't need a one year "prove yourself" deal with options.

[Killericon]

I think you're downplaying the level of cost re-signing Brandon and Elvis alone will cost. If you thought Dan Graham and Henry ate up cap space, imagine a premier WR and pass rusher in one sitting. Then slide a top receiving TE into that same list along with solid money for Kuper.

It's also 50/50 on whether or not they pursue resigning DJ... if they do, that's even more money off the books. If Den drafts Rivers, however, we can kiss DJ goodbye.

As for your plan on bringing him in on essentially the same incentive contract Javon started with... why would he agree to that? He's in a spot now where controls his destiny. He can refuse to renegotiate and be cut by the Jets and hit a market that saw Tommy Kelly get a ****ton of money. He doesn't need a one year "prove yourself" deal with options.

Fine then. Trade for him, and leave him on his current contract. Sure, we'd pay him a lot, but it's not as if we need the room, and none of it would be guaranteed.

Unless we give Dumervil and Marshall gargantuan signing bonuses, I don't think I'm underestimating them. If we give them big time contracts with big time guaranteed money, then I still think we could bite the bullet of a Robertson contract.

[Beantown Bronco]

If Al Davis decides to offer BMarsh over $30 million in guarantees (which isn't out of the questions considering his recent moves) and another pass-rush needy team offers Dumervil the same amount (again very possible considering the over-paying on the market for pass-rushers), is Bowlen cool dishing out $60 million for two guys?

Give them both first round tenders, which won't cost very much....at least not nearly the amounts you're throwing around above. If someone really wants to dish out that kind of dough for them, and we don't, then we get multiple first rounders for each of them.

Worst case, first round tender one and franchise the other.

Problem solved.

[montrose]

I don't think it's a valid comparison to look at players on the open market and make comparisons to players who are resigning. If these players are willing to resign, then it'll be for less than what they'd get on the open market. It always is.

Absolutely, we should be able to get these guys at a reduced rate to stay. But if I'm Brandon's agent I'm going to tell the Broncos , "Look at what Bernard Berrian got. Heck, you guys gave Dan Graham $30 million in guarantees and he can't even catch the ball. My client is one of the league's best WR's in his 20's and can go on the open market and easily pull $30 million." I do think we can get BMarsh and Doom cheaper than another team, but it's still going to cost a pretty penny.

As far as Williams goes, he's not going to get much. Briggs got 36 Million over 6.

I'm not sure what DJ is going to get. I can't imagine he's terribly happy with being moved around year-after-year. And with Wabbit's report that we're very interested in Keith Rivers - another WLB - I have hard time believing DJ is going to be keen on staying, I don't even know if the Broncos want him back.

Dumervil and Brandon will get hefty, hefty contracts, no denying that. We can tender Young, and either scenario(He signs, or we get a pick from him) is a win for us.

Yeah, I'm not concerned with Young in the least. But the possiblity is open that he could break out. Nevertheless, RB is one position I just don't concern myself with - and not because "We're the Broncos" or "It's the system" but rather RB is the most interchangeable position in NFL FO's. You can always get a RB.

I'm worried about Scheffler...If he posts another season like he did this year, I think the FO will have to decide between him and Graham, and I can only hope they pick Tony.

There's no way we're paying big bucks to both Graham and Tony. With that, TE is an extremely cheap position in comparison to other positions (which just makes the Graham signing look even more stupid). What we'll do is tender him high during his RFA period, and we can even franchise him the year after. The average of the top 5 salaries at TE was around $4.5 million or something, not much. By that point Graham should have restructured or be gone I'd believe. Tony's the easiest not only because I believe he genuinely wants to be here to play with Jay, but his position is an easier one to deal with than a #1 WR or pass-rushing DE.

I think that we would either let Hamilton walk, or that he'd resign for a negligible amount.

Ben shouldn't be terribly expensive as their aren't too many teams in the market for tiny C/G's. With that, Hamilton will likely be our starting C then and the Broncos have always taken care of their OL financially.

When I keep referencing how we'll be far under the Cap, I also mean that we'll be on the books for much less money as well.

That's true, although every year seems to bring some type of restructure that leads to an acceleration of bonus money. I'm not sure who, but it generally seems to be the case. With that, I agree we shouldn't be on the books for a ton of cash before resigning these guys.

I have faith in Bowlen. We've had the fortune of having a staff smart enough to make room for key players, and an owner willing to pick up the tab to keep the good players in town.

I agree. My only concern is that Bowlen has always been a company-man in the NFL perspective and he'd look quite foolish being a leader in the "players are getting too much of the pie" argument and then dishing out near $75 million in guarantees.

I guess my point is that we are in sore need of a competent defensive tackle.

We sure are. It's an extremely weak position, you'll get no argument from me on that. My only stance is that it would be wiser and more economic to draft and develop guys without the financial commitment, especially considering the gap between us and NE/Ind/SD is too large to be closed in 1-2 seasons. By drafting and developing some DT's, we'd hopefully be ready to make a push in 2-3 seasons - especially considering logic would say those other AFC powers should be taking a bit of a dip by then. If our drafted DT's don't work out, make a move in 2 years for a veteran. I just don't like the thought of wasting time, and more importantly - valuable experience for a youngster - in hopes of finishing 9-7, hell in hopes of finishing 10-6 or 11-5, if it's not going to net a championship. If 2008 and 2009 aren't going to be title years, and I'd argue they're not, we should get the most out of those years by garnering valuable experience for our young players in an effort to build a champion in 2010 or 2011. To me, we're the Indianapolis Colts of 1998/1999 or the San Diego Chargers of 2002/2003, a team with a bunch of young talent that's paying it's dues now for a reward later.

Scratch that. We are in need of two competent defensive tackles. While it's nice to hypothesize that Thomas will make a good undertackle, and that he'll stay out of trouble, I think that it's wise to plan for the opposite to occur.

I agree, I would not count on Marcus Thomas. That's why I suggested we take the route we did with the CB position in 2005 and bring in at least 3 DT's via this draft. Take those 3 rookies, along with Marcus Thomas and get them experience in 2008 and 2009 and then, if needed, bring in a veteran to finalize the group in 2010.

SO, if we trade for Robertson, and he plays as well as he did in NY, I think that his value would be greater than say, Dre Bly's or Daniel Graham's, if it came to a number crunch, and I would support cutting those guys over moving Robertson.

I agree, although I'm no cap expert and I have no idea what the ramifications of cutting those guys after this season would mean. I have a hard time seeing either on the team in 2010 though.

I honestly believe that Bowlen would never tell Shanahan to let a guy like Dumervil or Marshall walk because he didn't want to fork over the cash.

I'd like to think so, although Ian Gold ('04), Bert Berry and Reggie Hayward keep creeping into mind. Although I think those were more salary cap decisions. Nevertheless, my understanding is that it's not a matter of Bowlen signing off or on to every individual signing but rather giving the FO a budget to work off of each offseason. Now I'm sure in the case of this coming issue, Shanahan is going to talk with Bowlen about the importance of keeping this crew together, etc. But none of us know what Pat will say. If he says "Mike, whatever you need to do, go do it" - we're set. But considering his recent comments and actions, he might just say "Now why are we paying $20 million to a guy that only rushes the passer and can't stop the run considering we drafted two other DE's, including a 1st round pass-rusher?" I don't know how Bowlen works, so we'll see. I'm hopeful everything works out obviously.

I think that him pulling the purse strings this offseason isn't him being cheap, it's him being smart. He looked at the talent out there and said "I don't want to give these guys my money." while knowing that his money would be needed to keep the younger, superior players already on the roster around.

I would surely hope so. If that's the case than Bowlen is a very, smart owner and the Broncos have finally realized rebuilding over the long term is the way to do it.

I know that's the point that you're making, but if the Robertson trade happens, then the people in the Denver FO, Bowlen included, looked at how much they will need to pay the young core, looked at how much Robertson will get, looked at how much he(Bowlen) was willing to dish out and decided that they could make it work.

Absolutely. And if Pat says pay 'em all, we're set. But pure numbers watching would suggest it's going to be difficult, but not impossible, to keep them all. My personal opinion, which is nothing more than an assumption based on observation from dealing around the league and the Broncos, is that if Robertson is brought in and plays well it will become a choice between he and Dumervil.

If the trade doesn't happen because they can't make it work from a fiscal point of view, then I'm behind the decision...But I don't buy that. I think the only thing thats holding this trade back is a bit of gun-shyness over Robertson's injury concerns.

You may very well be right, these thoughts above are all mine, not Bowlen's or Shanahan's.

If that is the case(Which I think it to be), then Bowlen has already said that he'd be fine with giving him a fat contract, and that the cap wizards in the FO think that they can give him said contract without jeopardizing out current roster.

This of course assuming he plays well in 2008, but I go back to my thought on budgeting. You can, and should, budget for the long-term but it's impossible (especially considering the uncertainty of the CBA) to project what you'll have and need next year, and the year after. You can only do your best to find a balance between putting yourself in good financial shape over the long term while fielding a competitive team. I applaud teams like NE, Indy and Philly for doing this well.

My point is that if that is true(which, again, I think it to be) then I want us to pull the trigger, even with Robertson's injury concerns.

If we can afford them, go for it. If we were the Washington Redskins, Denver Nuggets or Dallas Mavericks, I'd have no problem whatsoever. I'm not diminishing the financial value of the Broncos, but I simply don't group us into those teams that have owners whose teams are their toys. I think trading for Robertson and keeping everyone else is great if you can afford it. I just think it's a bit excessive seeing we're not a likely title contender for two years. Who knows, two years from now Minnesota may be looking to unload Kevin Williams and we're ready to make a SB run. You can just never tell.

Fine then. Trade for him, and leave him on his current contract. Sure, we'd pay him a lot, but it's not as if we need the room, and none of it would be guaranteed.

I don't know enough about the cap to pretend that I can refute or agree with that. I'll defer to a more knowledgeable source.

Unless we give Dumervil and Marshall gargantuan signing bonuses, I don't think I'm underestimating them. If we give them big time contracts with big time guaranteed money, then I still think we could bite the bullet of a Robertson contract.

It's tough to tell because your budget has to be spent in a way that compliments it's differing pieces. In hindsight, the drafting of, and ensuing money invested in, Jarvis Moss makes it hard to justify paying Dumervil a big deal considering he's just a 3rd down pass-rusher (yes I know he was a starter last year but he was so ineffective against the run it was like playing with 3 DL on 1st downs) - especially if Moss pans out as a 1st round pick. Again, if you can afford to keep all of these guys that's fine and dandy, but if you are trying to keep a smart budget, NFL protocol says you don't sink too much money into one position - especially if it's not a position of strength. If we give Dumervil a big deal, Robertson a big deal, are already on the hook for decent cash to Moss and Crowder, and obviously bring in some rookies to the DL - that position will be the most expensive on the field for us. Now that's fine and dandy if our DL was our strength but do we really believe the acquisition of Robertson and a few rookies, along with some development of younger players, is going to take our DL from the bottom 3 in the league to the top 10? It could, but that's the kind of tough decision the FO has to make.

Give them both first round tenders, which won't cost very much....at least not nearly the amounts you're throwing around above. If someone really wants to dish out that kind of dough for them, and we don't, then we get multiple first rounders for each of them.

I'd give Marshall and Dumervil the 1st and 3rd tender just to be safe. I'd match anything on Marshall but if a team was willing to give a 1st and 3rd for Dumervil I'd let him go for my reasons listed above.

Worst case, first round tender one and franchise the other.

You can't franchise RFA's, nor would you need to. Assuming no long-term deal is worked out with either, you tender both of them a 1st and 3rd and then both become UFA's next offseason. You can franchise one but not both. In this case, you're risking losing one - which I would again make Dumervil. All of this, of course, is making the very large assumption that Marshall returns from his injury and is productive.

On a side note, I'd like to say that ongoing discussion between Killericon and myself has shown me their can still be intelligent, meaningful debate between football fans on a message board. I've become very frustrated through the years as debate suddenly turns personal on boards such as this but I've truly enjoyed debating this topic with Killericon as I believe it's brought out great points on either side and while not speaking for others, I believe I'm a more intelligent football fan for having taken part in them. Killericon, I (Mile High) salute you!

[Beantown Bronco]

You can franchise one but not both. In this case, you're risking losing one - which I would again make Dumervil.

Don't forget about the transition tag.

[montrose]

Don't forget about the transition tag.

I suppose you could do that, although I'm not familiar with the CBA enough to know if you can use both tags in the same offseason. If so, it's certainly a possiblity.

[DBroncos4life]

I'm willing to bet this guy doesn't miss a game again this year or the next year.

[Killericon]

Absolutely, we should be able to get these guys at a reduced rate to stay. But if I'm Brandon's agent I'm going to tell the Broncos , "Look at what Bernard Berrian got. Heck, you guys gave Dan Graham $30 million in guarantees and he can't even catch the ball. My client is one of the league's best WR's in his 20's and can go on the open market and easily pull $30 million." I do think we can get BMarsh and Doom cheaper than another team, but it's still going to cost a pretty penny.

To which our FO would(should) reply by pointing at Moss' contract.

I'm not sure what DJ is going to get. I can't imagine he's terribly happy with being moved around year-after-year. And with Wabbit's report that we're very interested in Keith Rivers - another WLB - I have hard time believing DJ is going to be keen on staying, I don't even know if the Broncos want him back.

My entire argument appears to be supported on the assumption that our FO is not a bunch of retards. If they take Rivers, my argument collapses.

Yeah, I'm not concerned with Young in the least. But the possiblity is open that he could break out. Nevertheless, RB is one position I just don't concern myself with - and not because "We're the Broncos" or "It's the system" but rather RB is the most interchangeable position in NFL FO's. You can always get a RB.

If he breaks out, then we give him a big RFA tender, and he sticks around. I'll certainly agree with you on the RB front. No worries.

There's no way we're paying big bucks to both Graham and Tony. With that, TE is an extremely cheap position in comparison to other positions (which just makes the Graham signing look even more stupid). What we'll do is tender him high during his RFA period, and we can even franchise him the year after. The average of the top 5 salaries at TE was around $4.5 million or something, not much. By that point Graham should have restructured or be gone I'd believe. Tony's the easiest not only because I believe he genuinely wants to be here to play with Jay, but his position is an easier one to deal with than a #1 WR or pass-rushing DE.

We should consult eddie mac or someone about what cutting Graham would do to us...

That's true, although every year seems to bring some type of restructure that leads to an acceleration of bonus money. I'm not sure who, but it generally seems to be the case. With that, I agree we shouldn't be on the books for a ton of cash before resigning these guys.

I agree. My only concern is that Bowlen has always been a company-man in the NFL perspective and he'd look quite foolish being a leader in the "players are getting too much of the pie" argument and then dishing out near $75 million in guarantees.

We sure are. It's an extremely weak position, you'll get no argument from me on that. My only stance is that it would be wiser and more economic to draft and develop guys without the financial commitment, especially considering the gap between us and NE/Ind/SD is too large to be closed in 1-2 seasons. By drafting and developing some DT's, we'd hopefully be ready to make a push in 2-3 seasons - especially considering logic would say those other AFC powers should be taking a bit of a dip by then. If our drafted DT's don't work out, make a move in 2 years for a veteran. I just don't like the thought of wasting time, and more importantly - valuable experience for a youngster - in hopes of finishing 9-7, hell in hopes of finishing 10-6 or 11-5, if it's not going to net a championship. If 2008 and 2009 aren't going to be title years, and I'd argue they're not, we should get the most out of those years by garnering valuable experience for our young players in an effort to build a champion in 2010 or 2011. To me, we're the Indianapolis Colts of 1998/1999 or the San Diego Chargers of 2002/2003, a team with a bunch of young talent that's paying it's dues now for a reward later.

Perhaps this is where our mindsets split. I want to win a championship as much as the next guy, but I don't subscribe to the "If we lay low for a while, we can come back strong!" stance. If you ask me if I'm happy with the results the Broncos have produced since Elway retired, I will give a resounding "Hell yeah!". Maybe it's because I'm a Blackhawks fan, but I think a team should try to make themselves as good as they can, every year. I've seen too many young corps be built up over time, only to turn into busts and force the team to start over. In short: I'd rather be a Braves Fan than a Browns Fan.

While I agree that building for the long-term is important, I think that trading for Robertson wouldn't hinder that process. I think that trading for him gives us, essentially, the same long-term value that we would get out of taking a, say, Pat Sims in the 2nd. If that's true, then this trade would turn a 2nd day pick into a 2nd round pick.

I agree, I would not count on Marcus Thomas. That's why I suggested we take the route we did with the CB position in 2005 and bring in at least 3 DT's via this draft. Take those 3 rookies, along with Marcus Thomas and get them experience in 2008 and 2009 and then, if needed, bring in a veteran to finalize the group in 2010.

I would trade for Robinson, and spend a 4th and a 7th on DTs.

I agree, although I'm no cap expert and I have no idea what the ramifications of cutting those guys after this season would mean. I have a hard time seeing either on the team in 2010 though.

I'd like to think so, although Ian Gold ('04), Bert Berry and Reggie Hayward keep creeping into mind. Although I think those were more salary cap decisions. Nevertheless, my understanding is that it's not a matter of Bowlen signing off or on to every individual signing but rather giving the FO a budget to work off of each offseason. Now I'm sure in the case of this coming issue, Shanahan is going to talk with Bowlen about the importance of keeping this crew together, etc. But none of us know what Pat will say. If he says "Mike, whatever you need to do, go do it" - we're set. But considering his recent comments and actions, he might just say "Now why are we paying $20 million to a guy that only rushes the passer and can't stop the run considering we drafted two other DE's, including a 1st round pass-rusher?"
I don't know how Bowlen works, so we'll see. I'm hopeful everything works out obviously.

Some of the Bowlen quotes I've heard this offseason have lead me to believe that he has a far bigger hand in roster management than I used to think. His office is right next door to Shanny's, and he claims they discuss things like this all the time. I think that a move of this magnitude would get mentioned to Bowlen.

As far as Bert Berry and Hayward are concerned...We turned out to be right about them, so I have no complaints.

I would surely hope so. If that's the case than Bowlen is a very, smart owner and the Broncos have finally realized rebuilding over the long term is the way to do it.

I have every confidence that Bowlen is the best owner in sports, personally.

Absolutely. And if Pat says pay 'em all, we're set. But pure numbers watching would suggest it's going to be difficult, but not impossible, to keep them all. My personal opinion, which is nothing more than an assumption based on observation from dealing around the league and the Broncos, is that if Robertson is brought in and plays well it will become a choice between he and Dumervil.

I pray it wouldn't.

You may very well be right, these thoughts above are all mine, not Bowlen's or Shanahan's.

This of course assuming he plays well in 2008, but I go back to my thought on budgeting. You can, and should, budget for the long-term but it's impossible (especially considering the uncertainty of the CBA) to project what you'll have and need next year, and the year after. You can only do your best to find a balance between putting yourself in good financial shape over the long term while fielding a competitive team. I applaud teams like NE, Indy and Philly for doing this well.

2 seasons ago, we'd have be in that list too. :(

If we can afford them, go for it. If we were the Washington Redskins, Denver Nuggets or Dallas Mavericks, I'd have no problem whatsoever. I'm not diminishing the financial value of the Broncos, but I simply don't group us into those teams that have owners whose teams are their toys. I think trading for Robertson and keeping everyone else is great if you can afford it. I just think it's a bit excessive seeing we're not a likely title contender for two years. Who knows, two years from now Minnesota may be looking to unload Kevin Williams and we're ready to make a SB run. You can just never tell.

Then why don't we trade Lynch and Nalen? They won't be around for that.

I agree with your sentiment that you can just never know. Maybe we trade for Robertson, and he and Thomas click. Maybe Moss, Dumervil, Crowder and EE make one of the best DE rotations in the league. Maybe our linebacking corps turns out to be decent. Maybe our secondary becomes as great as it's billing. Maybe Cutler manages to not get sacked every other play. Maybe our run game picks up again. Maybe, between a healthy Marshall, Scheffler, Colbert and Stokely, Cutler lights the opposition on fire.

Just how many of these maybes have to turn out right for us to be competitive again? How big of a reach are they, really?

The NFL is probably the hardest league in sports to predict over the long-term. The best you can hope for is that your team will make the best of every opportunity it gets, and I think that the best of this opportunity is to pull the trigger.

I don't know enough about the cap to pretend that I can refute or agree with that. I'll defer to a more knowledgeable source.

Like I said, we need eddie mac in here.

It's tough to tell because your budget has to be spent in a way that compliments it's differing pieces. In hindsight, the drafting of, and ensuing money invested in, Jarvis Moss makes it hard to justify paying Dumervil a big deal considering he's just a 3rd down pass-rusher (yes I know he was a starter last year but he was so ineffective against the run it was like playing with 3 DL on 1st downs) - especially if Moss pans out as a 1st round pick. Again, if you can afford to keep all of these guys that's fine and dandy, but if you are trying to keep a smart budget, NFL protocol says you don't sink too much money into one position - especially if it's not a position of strength. If we give Dumervil a big deal, Robertson a big deal, are already on the hook for decent cash to Moss and Crowder, and obviously bring in some rookies to the DL - that position will be the most expensive on the field for us. Now that's fine and dandy if our DL was our strength but do we really believe the acquisition of Robertson and a few rookies, along with some development of younger players, is going to take our DL from the bottom 3 in the league to the top 10? It could, but that's the kind of tough decision the FO has to make.

My sig going into last year's draft was "**** Jarvis Moss!". I hated last year's draft, for a lot of the reasons you just listed.

The sad truth is that if Dumervil doesn't better his run D, and Moss and Crowder get a little bit better, Dumervil's not getting a big, long-term contract, he's getting his walking papers(probably at great benefit to us, but still).

On a side note, I'd like to say that ongoing discussion between Killericon and myself has shown me their can still be intelligent, meaningful debate between football fans on a message board. I've become very frustrated through the years as debate suddenly turns personal on boards such as this but I've truly enjoyed debating this topic with Killericon as I believe it's brought out great points on either side and while not speaking for others, I believe I'm a more intelligent football fan for having taken part in them. Killericon, I (Mile High) salute you!

I was about to say that you're getting my nomination for poster of the year. This has been the very best argument I've had on the OM. Kudos. As far as the Robertson debate is concerned, I think we've reached an agreement, even if we kept debating past it.

If we can afford Robertson without jeopardizing the young core, then it should be done.

Does anyone know of any figures of what's being discussed/what was discussed when he was going to go to the Bengals?

[crush17]

Wall Of Text

[Killericon]

Wall Of Text

These things happen.

[MABroncoFan]

http://blogs.trb.com/sports/football/jets/blog/2008/04/the_rhodes_ripples.html

Update on Robertson to Denver

[Killericon]

Now they have to do something about Dewayne Robertson to free up some cash if they hope to sign their draft picks. I'm still expecting a deal to the Broncos on the weekend of the draft, probably for a second-day pick. I've been told that Robertson and the Broncos already have a new contract in place for just such an occasion.

If that's true, then I'm over the ****ing moon. WEEEEEE-HOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

[Beantown Bronco]

If that's true, then I'm over the ****ing moon. WEEEEEE-HOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Best news of the day so far IMO.

[MABroncoFan]

Why not do the deal now instead of waiting for the draft? In case someone like Ellis slips to the Broncos, and then they decide they don't want to do the deal anymore?

[rovolution]

i was about to post this news but didnt know if it needed its own thread. i guess it doesnt.

[bronco militia]

the contract was rumored to the only hold up and then the news broke about him failing a physical.

I doubt this move ever happens

[Popcorn Sutton]

Sweet!!! I hope they pull the trigger on this and draft a DT or two. This would certainly go a long way towards fixing the middle of that line. Thomas, Robertson, draft pick and McKinley and/or Peterson coming in as rotational DT sounds much better than what we had going into last season, IMHO.

[chaz]

Championship!



what...someone had to do it.

[cmhargrove]

Why not do the deal now instead of waiting for the draft? In case someone like Ellis slips to the Broncos, and then they decide they don't want to do the deal anymore?

I like this approach, wait and see who the Broncos can get, but already have a "deal" in place. This is really good.

Besides the distant possibility of Ellis sliding, there are also the trade down scenarios. What if we trade down and pick up a third? What if we swap firsts with a team, and we throw in one of our fourths to get their second? We could end up with the chance for both a Trevor Laws and a Dre Moore in the same draft.

Anyway, I like the fact that they aren't pushing the Robertson thing too hard. He could be a great value if the deal "falls in our lap."

[lex]

I like this approach, wait and see who the Broncos can get, but already have a "deal" in place. This is really good.

Besides the distant possibility of Ellis sliding, there are also the trade down scenarios. What if we trade down and pick up a third? What if we swap firsts with a team, and we throw in one of our fourths to get their second? We could end up with the chance for both a Trevor Laws and a Dre Moore in the same draft.

Anyway, I like the fact that they aren't pushing the Robertson thing too hard. He could be a great value if the deal "falls in our lap."

Id rather just do the deal and get it done so they will have one less contingency for the draft...so they can clear the runway, so to speak. I dont think this precludes taking Ellis if he is there at all, in either case. DTs dont always contribute in year 1 and its a way to hedge our bets in case Robertson cant play the whole season. But at the same time, getting Robertson now would give us the flexibility to focus our attention on other areas.

[bronco militia]

if compensation and a contract have already been agreed to, then there's no reason why this deal hasn't happened yet.

unless of course this guy is full of ****

[cmhargrove]

Id rather just do the deal and get it done so they will have one less contingency for the draft...so they can clear the runway, so to speak. I dont think this precludes taking Ellis if he is there at all, in either case. DTs dont always contribute in year 1 and its a way to hedge our bets in case Robertson cant play the whole season. But at the same time, getting Robertson now would give us the flexibility to focus our attention on other areas.

I'm with you lex. If other teams come calling and we have to do it, get 'er done. But, if we are really the only girl on the dance floor, it might be better to wait.

The other thing it says to me is that our FO staff is considering lots of options during the draft (which should make it pretty exciting). We could sure do a lot worse than picking up Robertson - especially if they have really reached an agreement on a restructure that is favorable to us.

[lex]

I'm with you lex. If other teams come calling and we have to do it, get 'er done. But, if we are really the only girl on the dance floor, it might be better to wait.

The other thing it says to me is that our FO staff is considering lots of options during the draft (which should make it pretty exciting). We could sure do a lot worse than picking up Robertson - especially if they have really reached an agreement on a restructure that is favorable to us.

Or disappointing. I hear about scouting Keith Rivers and I cringe...same with DeSean Jackson at 12. It seems like all the scenarios that are being speculated on suck.

[Popcorn Sutton]

if compensation and a contract have already been agreed to, then there's no reason why this deal hasn't happened yet.

unless of course this guy is full of ****

Ummm okay? Perhaps the Jets are holding out for a better scenario to fall in their lap? Perhaps the Broncos are holding out for a better scenario as well? Maybe the Broncos believe that if they make it all the way to the draft the Jets will get desperate and settle for a 6 instead of a 5 or whatever.

[cmhargrove]

Or disappointing. I hear about scouting Keith Rivers and I cringe...same with DeSean Jackson at 12. It seems like all the scenarios that are being speculated on suck.

I'll have to admit, I think this is the biggest draft we have had in decades. It will show the direction the father and son Goodman team wants. It will maybe shed a little light on what happened with Ted, and it could potentially mark the end of Shanahan's coaching career (or the revival of his "mastermind" status).

I hope they hit a home run again like in 2006.

[Popcorn Sutton]

I'll have to admit, I think this is the biggest draft we have had in decades. It will show the direction the father and son Goodman team wants. It will maybe shed a little light on what happened with Ted, and it could potentially mark the end of Shanahan's coaching career (or the revival of his "mastermind" status).

I hope they hit a home run again like in 2006.

Amen brother.

[Atlas]

I would really like Robertson in a Bronco uniform he will solidify the DL. If they get him they will have solid DE's with Dumerville, Crowder, Moss, Mallard and Engleb****ingberger. And the two DT will have a solid rotation of Thomas, Robertson, and Mckinley.

If this happens I would love for Denver to draft Rivers. He would become an instant starter and he would solidy the whole front 7. Maybe making it into a dominant group maybe not this year but in 2009. Of course trading downand drafting Phillips would be cool too. Or hell, If Denver stays put and get Clady that would be fine. I mean no matter what signing Robertson will make this draft better because Denver won't have to draft a DT and will give them more flexibility.

If Denver doesn't get Robertson they HAVE to draft a DT within the first two rounds. With him they can draft the best player available.

[TheReverend]

I would really like Robertson. He will solidify the DL. If they get him they will have solid DE's with Dumerville, Crowder, Moss, Mallard and Engleb****ingberger. And the two DT will have a solid rotation of Thomas, Robertson, and Mckinley.

If this happens I would love for Denver to draft Rivers. He would become an instant starter and he would solidy the whole front 7. Maybe making it into a dominant group maybe not this year but in 2009. Of course trading downand drafting Phillips would be cool too. Or hell, If Denver stays put and get Clady that would be fine. I mean no matter what signing Robertson will make this draft better because Denver won't have to draft a DT and will give them more flexibility.

If Denver doesn't get Robertson the HAVE to draft a DT within the first two rounds. With him they can draft the best player available.


Paragraph two is the equivalent of being kicked in the nuts.

[CHANGSTER]

if compensation and a contract have already been agreed to, then there's no reason why this deal hasn't happened yet.

unless of course this guy is full of ****

They may want teams to think DT is a 1st day possibility come draft time. Shanny smoke screens, draft posturing and all that crap.

At this point I have my fingers crossed that this deal gets done. I really want a damn OT early. Plus the more I learn of the DT's looking to be available the more 2007 run D nightmares I have.

[alkemical]

Broncos | Team reportedly has contract for D. Robertson
Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:25:28 -0700

Tom Rock, of New York News Day, reports according to sources, the Denver Broncos reportedly have a new contract in place for New York Jets DL Dewayne Robertson, who they will likely acquire through a draft-day trade.

[SureShot]

Broncos | Team reportedly has contract for D. Robertson
Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:25:28 -0700

Tom Rock, of New York News Day, reports according to sources, the Denver Broncos reportedly have a new contract in place for New York Jets DL Dewayne Robertson, who they will likely acquire through a draft-day trade.

Good lets get another in the draft as well.

[oubronco]

Broncos | Team reportedly has contract for D. Robertson
Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:25:28 -0700

Tom Rock, of New York News Day, reports according to sources, the Denver Broncos reportedly have a new contract in place for New York Jets DL Dewayne Robertson, who they will likely acquire through a draft-day trade.

then i think it's going to be OT in the 1st RD

[oubronco]

Killericon qoute: "This has been the very best argument I've had on the OM"

And i've enjoyed reading it as well, very well done guy's

[alkemical]

AND i used an existing thread!

[Beantown Bronco]

AND i used an existing thread!

If only everyone was as considerate! :thumbs:

[alkemical]

If only everyone was as considerate! :thumbs:

lol no ****.... :)

[bronco militia]

now if we could only get a mod to sticky all thsese threads

[alkemical]

now if we could only get a mod to sticky all thsese threads

You're still mad they didn't keep your thread title....

[bronco militia]

You're still mad they didn't keep your thread title....

lol...nahh, just fed up with the orange mane format today

[alkemical]

find all the robertson threads and bump them

[bronco militia]

yeah...I needed to make sure I wasn't go to read the same thing again

[Popcorn Sutton]

find all the robertson threads and bump them

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4051/robertsonhl7.jpg

[alkemical]

lol

[bronco militia]

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4051/robertsonhl7.jpg

LOL...thanks...

I thought about doing that and starting another D-Rob thread

[Popcorn Sutton]

LOL...thanks...

I thought about doing that and starting another D-Rob thread

D Rob is moving into Hixon territory on the Mane...

[alkemical]

D Rob is moving into Hixon territory on the Mane...

you mean he won't have jokes made up, that get run into the ground and haven't been funny for, i dunno, ever?

[bronco militia]

now you've done it

[alkemical]

I'm confused, done what?

[listopencil]

http://www.kimrichter.com/Blog/uploaded_images/merge-700542.jpg