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L.A. BRONCOS FAN
04-03-2008, 09:14 PM
The "Heckuva Job Brownies" just keep on coming from the "drown government in a bathtub" conservatives...

By DAN CATERINICCHIA Associated Press Writer

Apr 3rd, 2008 | WASHINGTON -- The whistleblowers who exposed maintenance and inspection problems at Southwest Airlines told Congress their jobs were threatened and their reports of noncompliance were ignored for years.

Federal Aviation Administration inspector Douglas Peters choked up Thursday at a House hearing and needed a few sips of water to tell lawmakers about how a former manager came into his office, commented on pictures of Peters' family being most important, and then said his job could be jeopardized by his actions.

Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minn., said FAA managers' actions displayed "malfeasance bordering on corruption," adding that if presented to a grand jury, the evidence would result in an indictment.

The FAA last month took the rare step of ordering the audit of maintenance records at all domestic carriers following reports of missed safety inspections at Dallas-based Southwest. The airline was hit with a record $10.2 million fine for continuing to fly dozens of Boeing 737s, which carried an estimated 145,000 passengers, that hadn't been inspected for cracks in their fuselages. Southwest has said it will appeal the penalty.

Both FAA whistleblowers — Charalambe Boutris and Peters — said the agency views the airlines as its "customers" instead of companies to be regulated. They said the FAA's chief maintenance inspector at the time, Douglas T. Gawadzinski, knowingly allowed Southwest to keep planes flying that put passengers at risk, and that another inspector knew of the problem and did nothing.

Transportation Department Inspector General Calvin L. Scovel III echoed concerns about the FAA's inspection office responsible for Southwest Airlines, testifying that it had "developed an overly collaborative relationship" with the carrier.

"FAA's oversight in this case appears to allow, rather than mitigate, recurring safety violations," Scovel said.

His office found that the agency fails to protect employees who report safety issues and doesn't adequately respond to problems when they are identified. He recommended immediate action be taken to fix the air carrier oversight programs.

Herb Kelleher, Southwest's founder and executive chairman, apologized for allowing planes to fly that should not have. "Our people made engineering judgments they were not entitled to make," he said, adding that passenger safety was never compromised.

Southwest Chief Executive Gary Kelly said the airline increased the number, scope and frequency of audits and implemented more stringent requirements of maintenance plan changes after the problems were discovered. The airline will take further action after independent investigators, the FAA and Southwest staff finish their reviews, he said.

When FAA inspectors blew the whistle in March 2007, Gawadzinski was their superior. He's still employed by the FAA, but has no responsibility for safety decisions, said Nicholas Sabatini, the agency's associate administrator for aviation safety.

Oberstar disputed that assertion and said Gawadzinski had retained oversight responsibility after his removal from the Southwest office. Sabatini said he would look into it those claims and promised that the FAA will "take whatever action the law will allow" when the investigation is complete.

Gawadzinski was not asked to testify at Thursday's hearing because of the ongoing nature of the investigations and he was considered to be a hostile witness who would most likely refuse to answer questions that could have incriminated himself, according to a spokesman for the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.

Committee Chairman Oberstar said as long as the FAA views the airlines as customers "that culture of safety will not take hold and is not going to permeate the organization."

Sabatini said the FAA is a regulator and that he would immediately work to correct that internal problem of perception.

Still, the inspectors' concerns about Southwest, which the FAA first acknowledged a year ago, have since been confirmed, and the agency on Wednesday said it is investigating four airlines for failing to comply with various federal aviation regulations. It did not name the airlines.

In the last week alone, AMR Corp.'s American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and UAL Corp.'s United Airlines have canceled flights to perform unscheduled inspections of certain aircraft, and US Airways Group Inc. found problems on some Boeing 757s after a wing part from another plane fell off during a flight.

Spokesmen from Delta, United, Northwest Airlines, US Air and American said they have not been informed that their companies are the subject of an investigation. A Southwest spokeswoman said the carrier has not been informed of any additional investigation.

On Wednesday, the FAA announced a new reporting system designed to make it easier for inspectors to raise concerns and strengthening ethics policies aimed at easing potential conflicts of interests.

The agency will launch the system by the end of this month to provide employees an additional way to raise safety concerns they feel are not receiving the necessary attention or response from management, acting FAA Administrator Robert A. Sturgell said. And by June 30, the agency will start a rule-making process to set a two-year "cooling off" period for former inspectors hired by airlines to match the time that new inspectors hired from industry must wait before they can oversee their former employer.

AP Business Writers Dave Carpenter in Chicago, Harry Weber in Atlanta, Josh Freed in Minneapolis and Chris Kahn in Phoenix contributed to this report.

http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/2008/04/03/D8VQMF700_faa_whistleblowers_hearing/index.html?source=rss&aim=wires?source=yahoo

Spider
04-03-2008, 09:43 PM
;D I got a new gig on the CB to stir up trouble ....... when someone bitches about things , I just key up and say .Driver what you need to do is ask yourself , what would the great immortal G.W.Bush do in this situation ...... Remember Bush and the Republicans are looking out for our best interest here on the road ... ... funny part is those yelling at me are the same bastards that voted for this **** .....

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
04-03-2008, 10:03 PM
... ... funny part is those yelling at me are the same bastards that voted for this **** .....

;D

Funny how that works.

theAPAOps5
04-03-2008, 10:08 PM
The FAA and the airlines have always had an "agreement." Sadly the people who truly care about their job and want to work for their checks are shunned and threatened because they are making waves.

The FAA is a flawed antiquated government entity. They are still using equipment from the 50's and 60's. There is technology out there that would make travel both safe and efficient but the FAA spends too much money studying these systems and run out of money to implement them.

Right now commercial aircraft fly to fixed points called VOR's and fly routes to get to their destination. Usually this extends the trips because they don't fly point to point, or as the crow flies. If the FAA would get off its ass and do something GPS would allow for point to point flights saving the airlines and private pilots money which in turn would reduce air fares. They do use GPS but not to its full potential.

Sadly their excuse is that they don't want to use GPS because in a national crisis the system could be shut down. Same excuse they used to stall using VOR's. They VOR system has been shut down only one time in its lifetime, that was 9/11 after every plane was on the ground.

Man I could go on forever about this corrupt agency sorry for the rant.

loborugger
04-03-2008, 10:48 PM
The FAA and the airlines have always had an "agreement." Sadly the people who truly care about their job and want to work for their checks are shunned and threatened because they are making waves.

The FAA is a flawed antiquated government entity. They are still using equipment from the 50's and 60's. There is technology out there that would make travel both safe and efficient but the FAA spends too much money studying these systems and run out of money to implement them.

Right now commercial aircraft fly to fixed points called VOR's and fly routes to get to their destination. Usually this extends the trips because they don't fly point to point, or as the crow flies. If the FAA would get off its ass and do something GPS would allow for point to point flights saving the airlines and private pilots money which in turn would reduce air fares. They do use GPS but not to its full potential.

Sadly their excuse is that they don't want to use GPS because in a national crisis the system could be shut down. Same excuse they used to stall using VOR's. They VOR system has been shut down only one time in its lifetime, that was 9/11 after every plane was on the ground.

Man I could go on forever about this corrupt agency sorry for the rant.

Dude, you are NOT inspiring me to get on a plane. Its bad enough we are 5 miles in the air without you posting stuff like this.

What a shame.

I have said it before and it bears repeating. Being incompetent in govt is fine. Being underqualified is fine. Being a fink and a kiss a$$ is fine. Intentionally setting up your co-workers for pitfalls is fine. Spending all your time in the bosses office instead of accomplishing anything is fine. However, the employees that are treated the worst, eyed with the most suspicion, and generally the most maligned by their co-workers are those who rocks the boat. Never mind the righteousness of the cause. And dont get me wrong - there are turds that rock the boat for every little snizzling detail. Nonetheless, I have found that I all but abhor rocking the boat and I only bring up things when I am absolutely sure of the cause and its a cause absolutely worth fighting for.

Which one would think the safety of 150 lives (or more) would qualify. But, then again, the plane probably wont crash. But rocking the boat will all but surely have negative repercussions.

Dudeskey
04-03-2008, 11:05 PM
;D I got a new gig on the CB to stir up trouble ....... when someone b****es about things , I just key up and say .Driver what you need to do is ask yourself , what would the great immortal G.W.Bush do in this situation ...... Remember Bush and the Republicans are looking out for our best interest here on the road ... ... funny part is those yelling at me are the same bastards that voted for this **** .....

I'd be hard pressed to find a trucker that supports him anymore... Especially after fuel prices went through the roof. Everytime the subject of fuel prices come up, Bush is part of the conversation- and not in a positive way... Just in my experience

W*GS
04-04-2008, 12:18 AM
The FAA is just another incompetent federal agency.

This is news?

Spider
04-04-2008, 12:51 AM
I'd be hard pressed to find a trucker that supports him anymore... Especially after fuel prices went through the roof. Everytime the subject of fuel prices come up, Bush is part of the conversation- and not in a positive way... Just in my experience

;D I do get some people going good ..Another one I use is .. lets say I am pulling into a TA , I say alright drivers listen up , I drive for Swift and I am going to back into a hole , but dont worry I was driver of the month ,so I know what I am doing

Dudeskey
04-04-2008, 01:51 AM
;D I do get some people going good ..Another one I use is .. lets say I am pulling into a TA , I say alright drivers listen up , I drive for Swift and I am going to back into a hole , but dont worry I was driver of the month ,so I know what I am doing

thats funny, I got **** like that when I used to drive for Schneider...

footstepsfrom#27
04-04-2008, 05:19 AM
The FAA, much like the FDA, is corupt and incompetent...so this should come as no real surprise.

Rohirrim
04-04-2008, 09:18 AM
I hate when I'm flying and the fuselage starts breaking up. It will be even more fun when Wiggsy World is implemented and there's no inspection of airplanes at all. He's right, of course. If a carrier started crashing planes left and right, people would stop using that carrier.

Free market forces at work. ;D

Spider
04-04-2008, 10:12 AM
thats funny, I got **** like that when I used to drive for Schneider...

LOL .Back in 92 , I had a JB hunt driver get me good ...... I was flying on 70 in Kansas , went right by a JB hunt truck like he was sitting on Jacks , he keyed up and said hey Large car , want to see something you never seen before ? I said sure , he said slow up ... I did to 45 mph , let him pass me , he said did you see it ? See what I asked ? he came back and said , the right side of a JB hunt truck .... I wanted to kick his ass , but I was pressed for time .I did cuss him nothing but good though

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
04-04-2008, 06:25 PM
I hate when I'm flying and the fuselage starts breaking up. It will be even more fun when Wiggsy World is implemented and there's no inspection of airplanes at all. He's right, of course. If a carrier started crashing planes left and right, people would stop using that carrier.

Free market forces at work. ;D

:yep:

W*GS undoubtedly sees no problem with this sort of "free" market approach - as long as he and his family are not on one of those planes.

theAPAOps5
04-04-2008, 08:36 PM
You have to understand something though when you get down to the brass tacks. The airlines have a vested interest to keep their birds in the sky. A crash due to mechanical malfunction is very bad press. While these aircraft may have slid by or had checks missed they are still maintained very well.

So don't feel unsafe when you fly because of these checks. Feel unsafe because the FAA way of doing things is older than most grand parents.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
04-05-2008, 02:45 AM
But I'll bet Dubya's FAA chief knows a thing or two about training Arabian horses or something useful like that. ;)

http://www.bartcop.com/hijacked-to-iraq.jpg

TailgateNut
04-05-2008, 10:00 AM
You have to understand something though when you get down to the brass tacks. The airlines have a vested interest to keep their birds in the sky. A crash due to mechanical malfunction is very bad press. While these aircraft may have slid by or had checks missed they are still maintained very well.

So don't feel unsafe when you fly because of these checks. Feel unsafe because the FAA way of doing things is older than most grand parents.



That's total BS. When the FAA orders a n inspection of possible cracks in the fuselage of a particular type of aircraft, that aircraft should be immediately grounded (red X, or at a minimum circled red X) until those inspections have been performed. To ignore a possible problem of this magnitude borders on criminal activity. Although mst airplanes have redundant systems (electrical, hydraulic, avoinics) the fuselage and its' structural member do not have a "back-up" system. When it fails, you're done!

I've crashed twice and lived. And although it's fun to talk about, the experience and subsequent medical treatment wasn't any fun.

The haphazard preflight inspections which are performed by the pilots of commercial airlines are a ****ing joke. The quick walk-around which they perform are nothing more than window dressing. Considering the amount of time these aircraft are used and the stresses of landings and take-offs, makes it even more important to confirm that structural issues are investigated/ inspected.

theAPAOps5
04-05-2008, 11:23 AM
What crashes have you been in?

I believe the 777 grounding was a check on electrical bundling not stress cracks. I agree with stress failure and structural checks. But I still contend that the aircraft are safe to fly and maintained well.

theAPAOps5
04-05-2008, 11:29 AM
And I am wrong on the type of inspection for the 777. It was the fire suppresion system.

The 747 was the one that missed electrical bundle checks.

azbroncfan
04-05-2008, 09:57 PM
Right now commercial aircraft fly to fixed points called VOR's and fly routes to get to their destination. Usually this extends the trips because they don't fly point to point, or as the crow flies. If the FAA would get off its ass and do something GPS would allow for point to point flights saving the airlines and private pilots money which in turn would reduce air fares. They do use GPS but not to its full potential.

Sadly their excuse is that they don't want to use GPS because in a national crisis the system could be shut down. Same excuse they used to stall using VOR's. They VOR system has been shut down only one time in its lifetime, that was 9/11 after every plane was on the ground.

Man I could go on forever about this corrupt agency sorry for the rant.


I'm glad you some knowledge of aviation but FMS/GPS is the main source of navigation. Just bust open some Jepps and look at all the RNAV SIDs/STARS that have no VOR/NDB navigation.

As far as the Southwest situation is it the FAA's fault that Southwest didn't comply with the inspections?

theAPAOps5
04-05-2008, 11:03 PM
I'm glad you some knowledge of aviation but FMS/GPS is the main source of navigation. Just bust open some Jepps and look at all the RNAV SIDs/STARS that have no VOR/NDB navigation.

As far as the Southwest situation is it the FAA's fault that Southwest didn't comply with the inspections?

Yeah I do bust them open and its not. Not even close. How about busting open some charts and counting the VOR/NDB routes. The majority of navigation is still VOR/NDB. GPS may overlay the same routing but it still boils down to VOR/NDB.

theAPAOps5
04-05-2008, 11:09 PM
To continue the discussion on GPS. Its only used for enroute and non-precision approach at this time. You find yourself in IMC and have to shoot an approach its the good old line of sight technology.

azbroncfan
04-05-2008, 11:15 PM
To continue the discussion on GPS. Its only used for enroute and non-precision approach at this time. You find yourself in IMC and have to shoot an approach its the good old line of sight technology.

What the heck are you saying here? Since when can't you use a GPS nonprecision approach in IMC? Let me ask you how much flight time do you have?

azbroncfan
04-05-2008, 11:17 PM
Yeah I do bust them open and its not. Not even close. How about busting open some charts and counting the VOR/NDB routes. The majority of navigation is still VOR/NDB. GPS may overlay the same routing but it still boils down to VOR/NDB.

Yeah the enroute charts are all victor airways but that doesn't mean you follow them religously. ATC gives you direct 90 percent of the time which is navigated by using the FMS/GPS. Tell me how you find VOR's out in the middle of the ocean?

theAPAOps5
04-05-2008, 11:25 PM
You are right regarding en route and across the pond flights. How many flights originating in the US go over the ocean.

You don't fly a precision instrument approach using GPS. I don't see how you are arguing that.

theAPAOps5
04-05-2008, 11:29 PM
What the heck are you saying here? Since when can't you use a GPS nonprecision approach in IMC? Let me ask you how much flight time do you have?

You are right I used the wrong terminology here.

azbroncfan
04-06-2008, 01:58 AM
You don't fly a precision instrument approach using GPS. I don't see how you are arguing that.


Where did I say ANYTHING about a GPS precision approach? You are the one who said if you are in IMC you have to use line of sight navigation which is wrong.

theAPAOps5
04-06-2008, 12:12 PM
Where did I say ANYTHING about a GPS precision approach? You are the one who said if you are in IMC you have to use line of sight navigation which is wrong.

Yep and I corrected my self and said you were right after I realized that. By the way who do you fly for? I assume you are based out of Salt Lake City.

azbroncfan
04-06-2008, 04:06 PM
Yep and I corrected my self and said you were right after I realized that. By the way who do you fly for? I assume you are based out of Salt Lake City.

SKYWEST

theAPAOps5
04-06-2008, 04:25 PM
Nice what equipment? I assume you are in at DIA regularly. I am in Airside Ops and half my job is spent in the ramp control tower as a ramp commander.

azbroncfan
04-06-2008, 10:45 PM
Nice what equipment? I assume you are in at DIA regularly. I am in Airside Ops and half my job is spent in the ramp control tower as a ramp commander.

No I'm all SLC or CA. Used to do DIA but we closed the EMB 120 base.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
04-06-2008, 11:40 PM
Screw all this GPS talk - what the FAA needs is a chairman who knows something about training Arabian horses. ;)

cbs1177
04-06-2008, 11:50 PM
Screw all this GPS talk - what the FAA needs is a chairman who knows something about training Arabian horses. ;)


lol that is funny since I was a co pilot of a Cessna I had no training but only had the "wheel" for five minutes between Memphis and Nashville (went to meet a girl that turn out b/c I am still single). Super afraid of heights yet airplane travel doesn't bother me at all. I know pilots can't have many speeding tickets. I generally feel safe in the air or by train b/c if it is my time to go then the Good Lord is calling me home and nothing else for me to do on earth.

TailgateNut
04-07-2008, 09:31 AM
What crashes have you been in?

I believe the 777 grounding was a check on electrical bundling not stress cracks. I agree with stress failure and structural checks. But I still contend that the aircraft are safe to fly and maintained well.

One in Korea when I had a transmission failure during a test flight.
Second in Va. during a test flight after minor mods (addition of wire cutters).
(Those were a ****ing joke anywhoo).


Although these were on Hueys (not fixed wing), your ass still puckers up when the ground approaches at high rates of speed.;D

theAPAOps5
04-07-2008, 11:21 AM
Yeah my Dad is a AH-64 Longbow pilot. He used to fly Hueys. Those transmissions suck on Hueys.