Obama's church

[yavoon]

its a little bit of ****diggin but its pretty interesting atleast to me. here are the "12 precepts and covenantal statements." if this has already been pointed out then sorries.

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the Black Community
3. Commitment to the Black Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
7. Commitment to self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

I especially like #11.

[Bronco Jamus]

That's as racist as it gets.

[BABronco]

That's as racist as it gets.

But they are black ... everyone knows it okay to say racist stuff if your black

[shakenbake]

I wonder if Obama took the pledge ?

[shakenbake]

Actually, you know what. Just because he went there for 20 years, got married there, and baptized his children there doesn't mean he believes in these things. It is just his church, give the man a break. Just embrace the hope and get on the train

[footstepsfrom#27]

That's as racist as it gets.
No it's not.

It only seems that way to you since you're probably unfamiliar with the historical role of the church in the black community. Blacks were excluded from white congregations so they formed their own. The social gospel and "liberation theology" espoused by ministers like Jeremiah Wright are at the opposite end of the theological spectrum from the so called religious right...a coalition of conservative Catholics, white fundamentalists bent on political power and some white evangelicals. The RR has focused on advancing it's agenda nationally through political pressure and registering its voters, while the black church has focused on political participation but also on direct social involvement, which is something the religious right has not done. The black church has been the epicenter and staging platform for every civil rights movement since Lincoln freed the slaaves, and there is nothing wrong with black people utilizing the resources of their churches to work for making beneficial changes in their communities.

It's part of the unfortunate legacy of the Christian church in America that we remain overwhelmingly segregated on Sundays, and part of the reason for that is the failure of white evangelicals to grasp the fact that issues of racial inequities in this country are in fact...MORAL in nature...and thus deserving the same attention as other issues of morality that impact society.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No it's not.

It only seems that way to you since you're probably unfamiliar with the historical role of the church in the black community. Blacks were excluded from white congregations so they formed their own. The social gospel and "liberation theology" espoused by ministers like Jeremiah Wright are at the opposite end of the theological spectrum from the so called religious right...a coalition of conservative Catholics, white fundamentalists bent on political power and some white evangelicals. The RR has focused on advancing it's agenda nationally through political pressure and registering its voters, while the black church has focused on political participation but also on direct social involvement, which is something the religious right has not done. The black church has been the epicenter and staging platform for every civil rights movement since Lincoln freed the slaaves, and there is nothing wrong with black people utilizing the resources of their churches to work for making beneficial changes in their communities.

It's part of the unfortunate legacy of the Christian church in America that we remain overwhelmingly segregated on Sundays, and part of the reason for that is the failure of white evangelicals to grasp the fact that issues of racial inequities in this country are in fact...MORAL in nature...and thus deserving the same attention as other issues of morality that impact society.

Educating these right-wing mouth breathers is a full-time job, eh?

[Rigs11]

You knucleheads failed to say anything about Mccain's spiritual adviser.tsk tsk.You're excused yavoon since we all know that you are an islam hating christian.Oh and he hates the gays too so that should be right up your alley.

McCain's Spiritual Guide: Destroy Islam


Senator John McCain hailed as a spiritual adviser an Ohio megachurch pastor who has called upon Christians to wage a "war" against the "false religion" of Islam with the aim of destroying it.

On February 26, McCain appeared at a campaign rally in Cincinnati with the Reverend Rod Parsley of the World Harvest Church of Columbus, a supersize Pentecostal institution that features a 5,200-seat sanctuary, a television studio (where Parsley tapes a weekly show), and a 122,000-square-foot Ministry Activity Center. That day, a week before the Ohio primary, Parsley praised the Republican presidential front-runner as a "strong, true, consistent conservative." The endorsement was important for McCain, who at the time was trying to put an end to the lingering challenge from former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, a favorite among Christian evangelicals. A politically influential figure in Ohio, Parsley could also play a key role in McCain's effort to win this bellwether state in the general election. McCain, with Parsley by his side at the Cincinnati rally, called the evangelical minister a "spiritual guide."

The leader of a 12,000-member congregation, Parsley has written several books outlining his fundamentalist religious outlook, including the 2005 Silent No More. In this work, Parsley decries the "spiritual desperation" of the United States, and he blasts away at the usual suspects: activist judges, civil libertarians who advocate the separation of church and state, the homosexual "culture" ("homosexuals are anything but happy and carefree"), the "abortion industry," and the crass and profane entertainment industry. And Parsley targets another profound threat to the United States: the religion of Islam.

In a chapter titled "Islam: The Deception of Allah," Parsley warns there is a "war between Islam and Christian civilization." He continues:

I cannot tell you how important it is that we understand the true nature of Islam, that we see it for what it really is. In fact, I will tell you this: I do not believe our country can truly fulfill its divine purpose until we understand our historical conflict with Islam. I know that this statement sounds extreme, but I do not shrink from its implications. The fact is that America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion destroyed, and I believe September 11, 2001, was a generational call to arms that we can no longer ignore.

Parsley is not shy about his desire to obliterate Islam. In Silent No More, he notes—approvingly—that Christopher Columbus shared the same goal: "It was to defeat Islam, among other dreams, that Christopher Columbus sailed to the New World in 1492…Columbus dreamed of defeating the armies of Islam with the armies of Europe made mighty by the wealth of the New World. It was this dream that, in part, began America." He urges his readers to realize that a confrontation between Christianity and Islam is unavoidable: "We find now we have no choice. The time has come." And he has bad news: "We may already be losing the battle. As I scan the world, I find that Islam is responsible for more pain, more bloodshed, and more devastation than nearly any other force on earth at this moment."

Parsley claims that Islam is an "anti-Christ religion" predicated on "deception." The Muslim prophet Muhammad, he writes, "received revelations from demons and not from the true God." And he emphasizes this point: "Allah was a demon spirit." Parsley does not differentiate between violent Islamic extremists and other followers of the religion:

There are some, of course, who will say that the violence I cite is the exception and not the rule. I beg to differ. I will counter, respectfully, that what some call "extremists" are instead mainstream believers who are drawing from the well at the very heart of Islam.

The spirit of Islam, he maintains, is one of hostility. He asserts that the religion "inspired" the 9/11 attacks. He bemoans the fact that in the years after 9/11, 34,000 Americans "have become Muslim" and that there are "some 1,209 mosques" in America. Islam, he declares, is a "faith that fully intends to conquer the world" through violence. The United States, he insists, "has historically understood herself as a bastion against Islam," but "history is crashing in upon us."

At the end of his chapter on Islam, Parsley asks, "Are we a Christian nation? I say yes." Without specifying what actions should be taken to eradicate the religion, he essentially calls for a new crusade.

Parsley, who refers to himself as a "Christocrat," is no stranger to controversy. In 2007, the grassroots organization he founded, the Center for Moral Clarity, called for prosecuting people who commit adultery. In January, he compared Planned Parenthood to Nazis. In the past Parsley's church has been accused of engaging in pro-Republican partisan activities in violation of its tax-exempt status.

Why would McCain court Parsley? He has long had trouble figuring out how to deal with Christian fundamentalists, an important bloc for the Republican Party. During his 2000 presidential bid, he referred to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell as "agents of intolerance." But six years later, as he readied himself for another White House run, McCain repudiated that remark. More recently, his campaign hit a rough patch when he accepted the endorsement of the Reverend John Hagee, a Texas televangelist who has called the Catholic Church "the great whore" and a "false cult system." After the Catholic League protested and called on McCain to renounce Hagee's support, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee praised Hagee's spiritual leadership and support of Israel and said that "when [Hagee] endorses me, it does not mean that I embrace everything that he stands for or believes in." After being further criticized for his Hagee connection, McCain backed off slightly, saying, "I repudiate any comments that are made, including Pastor Hagee's, if they are anti-Catholic or offensive to Catholics." But McCain did not renounce Hagee's endorsement.

McCain's relationship with Parsley is politically significant. In 2004, Parsley's church was credited with driving Christian fundamentalist voters to the polls for George W. Bush. With Ohio expected to again be a decisive state in the presidential contest, Parsley's World Harvest Church and an affiliated entity called Reformation Ohio, which registers voters, could be important players within this battleground state. Considering that the Ohio Republican Party has been decimated by various political scandals and that a popular Democrat, Ted Strickland, is now the state's governor, McCain and the Republicans will need all the help they can get in the Buckeye State this fall. It's a real question: Can McCain win the presidency without Parsley?

The McCain campaign did not respond to a request for comment regarding Parsley and his anti-Islam writings. Parsley did not return a call seeking comment.

"The last thing I want to be is another screaming voice moving people to extremes and provoking them to folly in the name of patriotism," Parsley writes in Silent No More. Provoking people to holy war is another matter. About that, McCain so far is silent.

David Corn is Mother Jones' Washington, D.C. bureau chief.

http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html

[Rigs11]

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[yavoon]

You knucleheads failed to say anything about Mccain's spiritual adviser.tsk tsk.You're excused yavoon since we all know that you are an islam hating christian.Oh and he hates the gays too so that should be right up your alley.

McCain's Spiritual Guide: Destroy Islam


Senator John McCain hailed as a spiritual adviser an Ohio megachurch pastor who has called upon Christians to wage a "war" against the "false religion" of Islam with the aim of destroying it.

On February 26, McCain appeared at a campaign rally in Cincinnati with the Reverend Rod Parsley of the World Harvest Church of Columbus, a supersize Pentecostal institution that features a 5,200-seat sanctuary, a television studio (where Parsley tapes a weekly show), and a 122,000-square-foot Ministry Activity Center. That day, a week before the Ohio primary, Parsley praised the Republican presidential front-runner as a "strong, true, consistent conservative." The endorsement was important for McCain, who at the time was trying to put an end to the lingering challenge from former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, a favorite among Christian evangelicals. A politically influential figure in Ohio, Parsley could also play a key role in McCain's effort to win this bellwether state in the general election. McCain, with Parsley by his side at the Cincinnati rally, called the evangelical minister a "spiritual guide."

The leader of a 12,000-member congregation, Parsley has written several books outlining his fundamentalist religious outlook, including the 2005 Silent No More. In this work, Parsley decries the "spiritual desperation" of the United States, and he blasts away at the usual suspects: activist judges, civil libertarians who advocate the separation of church and state, the homosexual "culture" ("homosexuals are anything but happy and carefree"), the "abortion industry," and the crass and profane entertainment industry. And Parsley targets another profound threat to the United States: the religion of Islam.

In a chapter titled "Islam: The Deception of Allah," Parsley warns there is a "war between Islam and Christian civilization." He continues:

I cannot tell you how important it is that we understand the true nature of Islam, that we see it for what it really is. In fact, I will tell you this: I do not believe our country can truly fulfill its divine purpose until we understand our historical conflict with Islam. I know that this statement sounds extreme, but I do not shrink from its implications. The fact is that America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion destroyed, and I believe September 11, 2001, was a generational call to arms that we can no longer ignore.

Parsley is not shy about his desire to obliterate Islam. In Silent No More, he notes—approvingly—that Christopher Columbus shared the same goal: "It was to defeat Islam, among other dreams, that Christopher Columbus sailed to the New World in 1492…Columbus dreamed of defeating the armies of Islam with the armies of Europe made mighty by the wealth of the New World. It was this dream that, in part, began America." He urges his readers to realize that a confrontation between Christianity and Islam is unavoidable: "We find now we have no choice. The time has come." And he has bad news: "We may already be losing the battle. As I scan the world, I find that Islam is responsible for more pain, more bloodshed, and more devastation than nearly any other force on earth at this moment."

Parsley claims that Islam is an "anti-Christ religion" predicated on "deception." The Muslim prophet Muhammad, he writes, "received revelations from demons and not from the true God." And he emphasizes this point: "Allah was a demon spirit." Parsley does not differentiate between violent Islamic extremists and other followers of the religion:

There are some, of course, who will say that the violence I cite is the exception and not the rule. I beg to differ. I will counter, respectfully, that what some call "extremists" are instead mainstream believers who are drawing from the well at the very heart of Islam.

The spirit of Islam, he maintains, is one of hostility. He asserts that the religion "inspired" the 9/11 attacks. He bemoans the fact that in the years after 9/11, 34,000 Americans "have become Muslim" and that there are "some 1,209 mosques" in America. Islam, he declares, is a "faith that fully intends to conquer the world" through violence. The United States, he insists, "has historically understood herself as a bastion against Islam," but "history is crashing in upon us."

At the end of his chapter on Islam, Parsley asks, "Are we a Christian nation? I say yes." Without specifying what actions should be taken to eradicate the religion, he essentially calls for a new crusade.

Parsley, who refers to himself as a "Christocrat," is no stranger to controversy. In 2007, the grassroots organization he founded, the Center for Moral Clarity, called for prosecuting people who commit adultery. In January, he compared Planned Parenthood to Nazis. In the past Parsley's church has been accused of engaging in pro-Republican partisan activities in violation of its tax-exempt status.

Why would McCain court Parsley? He has long had trouble figuring out how to deal with Christian fundamentalists, an important bloc for the Republican Party. During his 2000 presidential bid, he referred to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell as "agents of intolerance." But six years later, as he readied himself for another White House run, McCain repudiated that remark. More recently, his campaign hit a rough patch when he accepted the endorsement of the Reverend John Hagee, a Texas televangelist who has called the Catholic Church "the great whore" and a "false cult system." After the Catholic League protested and called on McCain to renounce Hagee's support, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee praised Hagee's spiritual leadership and support of Israel and said that "when [Hagee] endorses me, it does not mean that I embrace everything that he stands for or believes in." After being further criticized for his Hagee connection, McCain backed off slightly, saying, "I repudiate any comments that are made, including Pastor Hagee's, if they are anti-Catholic or offensive to Catholics." But McCain did not renounce Hagee's endorsement.

McCain's relationship with Parsley is politically significant. In 2004, Parsley's church was credited with driving Christian fundamentalist voters to the polls for George W. Bush. With Ohio expected to again be a decisive state in the presidential contest, Parsley's World Harvest Church and an affiliated entity called Reformation Ohio, which registers voters, could be important players within this battleground state. Considering that the Ohio Republican Party has been decimated by various political scandals and that a popular Democrat, Ted Strickland, is now the state's governor, McCain and the Republicans will need all the help they can get in the Buckeye State this fall. It's a real question: Can McCain win the presidency without Parsley?

The McCain campaign did not respond to a request for comment regarding Parsley and his anti-Islam writings. Parsley did not return a call seeking comment.

"The last thing I want to be is another screaming voice moving people to extremes and provoking them to folly in the name of patriotism," Parsley writes in Silent No More. Provoking people to holy war is another matter. About that, McCain so far is silent.

David Corn is Mother Jones' Washington, D.C. bureau chief.

http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html

I'm not christian you useless retard, not that I ever expect you to say anything resembling the truth. this does bring up a very interesting political scenario tho, so many ppl on the left take so much glee in attacking religion. so whats the plan?

attack hagee and attempt to make an equivalence with wright? I'm not sure that'd work as mccain doesn't attend hagee's church much less have attended it for 2 decades, been his father figure, his uncle, married him and baptized his children, inspired his book and possibly his entire presidential campaign. though you all are probably going to try.

which leads to #2, lets say you take down the evil hagee, I gotta imagine in most ppl's minds that'd firebombing wright too. there is going to be some pretzel twisting going on thats for sure.

[shakenbake]

You should make a thread about it Riggs. I know my reading isn't at your superior level but I am pretty sure this thread was about Obama's church.

[yavoon]

No it's not.

It only seems that way to you since you're probably unfamiliar with the historical role of the church in the black community. Blacks were excluded from white congregations so they formed their own. The social gospel and "liberation theology" espoused by ministers like Jeremiah Wright are at the opposite end of the theological spectrum from the so called religious right...a coalition of conservative Catholics, white fundamentalists bent on political power and some white evangelicals. The RR has focused on advancing it's agenda nationally through political pressure and registering its voters, while the black church has focused on political participation but also on direct social involvement, which is something the religious right has not done. The black church has been the epicenter and staging platform for every civil rights movement since Lincoln freed the slaaves, and there is nothing wrong with black people utilizing the resources of their churches to work for making beneficial changes in their communities.

It's part of the unfortunate legacy of the Christian church in America that we remain overwhelmingly segregated on Sundays, and part of the reason for that is the failure of white evangelicals to grasp the fact that issues of racial inequities in this country are in fact...MORAL in nature...and thus deserving the same attention as other issues of morality that impact society.

I agree with footsteps bronco jamus. you are the racist. that some of our presidential candidates happen to attend churches that demand political allegiance based on the color of one's skin is irrelevant. you are the racist. internalize it. you are the racist.

you are the racist.

[Rigs11]

You should make a thread about it Riggs. I know my reading isn't at your superior level but I am pretty sure this thread was about Obama's church.

We already have a thread on it, here let me use my superior skills and point you to it since you're kinda slow. http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=67204

[footstepsfrom#27]

Educating these right-wing mouth breathers is a full-time job, eh?
We've had a few interesting discussions on this topic as well. I think the focus on religion right now is an attempt to distract from the two issues this election should be decided on, the war and the economy. Both should favor the DEMS so it's obvious that focusing on this Wright issue serves two purposes, distraction and division, the latter designed to sew seeds of racial conflict and disturb white voters who might otherwise vote for Obama.

[Rigs11]

I'm not christian you useless retard, not that I ever expect you to say anything resembling the truth. this does bring up a very interesting political scenario tho, so many ppl on the left take so much glee in attacking religion. so whats the plan?

attack hagee and attempt to make an equivalence with wright? I'm not sure that'd work as mccain doesn't attend hagee's church much less have attended it for 2 decades, been his father figure, his uncle, married him and baptized his children, inspired his book and possibly his entire presidential campaign. though you all are probably going to try.

which leads to #2, lets say you take down the evil hagee, I gotta imagine in most ppl's minds that'd firebombing wright too. there is going to be some pretzel twisting going on thats for sure.

Oh that's rich. You're the biggest poster of anti islam bs around here. At least man up and admit it.Mccain said that he was his spiritual adviser, what more do you want?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3548250.ece

[shakenbake]

We already have a thread on it, here let me use my superior skills and point you to it since you're kinda slow. http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=67204

I think the topic is a little different. But hey I am slow so what do I know

[yavoon]

Oh that's rich. You're the biggest poster of anti islam bs around here. At least man up and admit it.Mccain said that he was his spiritual adviser, what more do you want?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3548250.ece

I am anti-islam, anti-sharia, anti-koran, I believe in women's rights, I believe in gay marriage and I believe in liberty. I believe in freedom of speech and freedom of religion both of which are fundamentally opposed by the ideology of islam. it doesn't mean I wish ill on muslims.

but can you try to sidetrack this less? are you such a useless arguer and bigot that you can't hold a conversation on topic?

I see this is going to be a thread of wild counter attacks and squirming.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I agree with footsteps bronco jamus. you are the racist. that some of our presidential candidates happen to attend churches that demand political allegiance based on the color of one's skin is irrelevant. you are the racist. internalize it. you are the racist.

you are the racist.
I never said he was a racist. But going with this theme...the church is supposed to be a force for positive change in the community among other things. Exactly what do you see wrong with black churches trying to help the black community? Keep in mind that improving inner city conditions with the church as the agent of change saves you tax money.

[shakenbake]

Oh that's rich. You're the biggest poster of anti islam bs around here. At least man up and admit it.Mccain said that he was his spiritual adviser, what more do you want?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3548250.ece

there you go when you can't rebut, deflect!

[yavoon]

I never said he was a racist. But going with this theme...the church is supposed to be a force for positive change in the community among other things. Exactly what do you see wrong with black churches trying to help the black community? Keep in mind that improving inner city conditions with the church as the agent of change saves you tax money.

nothing, I imagine lots of nationalist/racist/religionist organizations in their own way do good for their own self-segregated communities. I wouldn't support them to have political power over me though, unless of course I happened to be in their own self-defined group, which I'm not.

and again, some presidential candidates happen to belong to churches that demand political allegiance based on skin color.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I think the focus on religion right now is an attempt to distract from the two issues this election should be decided on, the war and the economy. Both should favor the DEMS so it's obvious that focusing on this Wright issue serves two purposes, distraction and division, the latter designed to sew seeds of racial conflict and disturb white voters who might otherwise vote for Obama.

That much I can agree on. :thumbs:

[Rigs11]

I am anti-islam, anti-sharia, anti-koran, I believe in women's rights, I believe in gay marriage and I believe in liberty. I believe in freedom of speech and freedom of religion both of which are fundamentally opposed by the ideology of islam. it doesn't mean I wish ill on muslims.

but can you try to sidetrack this less? are you such a useless arguer and bigot that you can't hold a conversation on topic?

I see this is going to be a thread of wild counter attacks and squirming.

Ahh you grew some balls.Congratulations Yavoon!You are just adding fuel to the fire. Let it go. There are extremists in all religions, the reason that you don't see christians with bombs strapped to their backs is because they do their killing the "civilized' way.In the name of democracy!with million dollar missiles and jets and tanks.God bless us all...

[Bronco Jamus]

Horse hockey. Change the word from black to white or any race and you also have a racist organization. It's racist in concept and there is no way to dance around it.

Compound that with mister Wright, his church publication, and his endorsement of Farrakhan, and you have the makings of a racist organization. Support that if you must. I won't.

[yavoon]

Ahh you grew some balls.Congratulations Yavoon!You are just adding fuel to the fire. Let it go. There are extremists in all religions, the reason that you don't see christians with bombs strapped to their backs is because they do their killing the "civilized' way.In the name of democracy!with million dollar missiles and jets and tanks.God bless us all...

all four schools of sharia law, ALL. written down, I do not like. the koran, reading it(have you?) I do not like. and I have never not let it go you moron. your group is just too stupid to have an adult conversation with.

just like the left is going to call americans racist if they in anyway dislike what wright says or what the church believes. you just wait, I can see it now if obama gets the nomination. america is racist, we're all racist, everyone of us and our dislike of obama's church is proof.

[Rigs11]

there you go when you can't rebut, deflect!

Those are facts boy. Spend a little more time around here and you'll see.Like I stated, all this hoopla about wright but mccains adviser gets a pass?

[yavoon]

Those are facts boy. Spend a little more time around here and you'll see.Like I stated, all this hoopla about wright but mccains adviser gets a pass?

exactly how many years has mccain attended hagee's church? not that you don't know this line already, you just like to ignore it.

[shakenbake]

Those are facts boy. Spend a little more time around here and you'll see.Like I stated, all this hoopla about wright but mccains adviser gets a pass?

Must resist the urge to change the subject!:strong:

[yavoon]

for reading fun I took jamus' suggestion and switched the races.

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the White Community
3. Commitment to the White Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the White Work Ethic
7. Commitment to self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the White Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting White Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the White Value System.

[Rigs11]

all four schools of sharia law, ALL. written down, I do not like. the koran, reading it(have you?) I do not like. and I have never not let it go you moron. your group is just too stupid to have an adult conversation with.

just like the left is going to call americans racist if they in anyway dislike what wright says or what the church believes. you just wait, I can see it now if obama gets the nomination. america is racist, we're all racist, everyone of us and our dislike of obama's church is proof.

You're such a drama queen.Oh and a clairvoyant to boot.You're a racist already. Your holier than thou bs doesn't fly around here and never will.

[footstepsfrom#27]

nothing, I imagine lots of nationalist/racist/religionist organizations in their own way do good for their own self-segregated communities. I wouldn't support them to have political power over me though, unless of course I happened to be in their own self-defined group, which I'm not.

and again, some presidential candidates happen to belong to churches that demand political allegiance based on skin color.
Segregation was not the black man's idea, though a lot of them have now adopted the concept. I'm not sure what you mean by "power over me"...is that really a concern for you? Nowhere do I think there's the implication in all this that Wright or his church have "demanded political allegiance based on skin color"...I didn't notice anything in the list about politics at all. Black churches do the things listed...they feed, clothe, house, educate, counsel, empower, admonish and support their communities with all kinds of outreach. What's political about this? It's what the church is supposed to do. If you're suggesting Obama's spiritual influence is bent on exclusions...in point of fact Obama is MOST known for reaching ACROSS racial, class, economic and political lines. It's tough to suggest he's the candidate of exclusion or his church is supporting this when he's the first black candidate with broad based support, has a long history of forming coalitions with opponents and has constantly advanced this as the primary plank in his political strategy.

[yavoon]

You're such a drama queen.Oh and a clairvoyant to boot.You're a racist already. Your holier than thou bs doesn't fly around here and never will.

holier than thou and racist! wow. thats impressive. even if you imagine yourself among friends who are willing to ignore your complete lack of any ability to argue or understand it wouldn't change the factualness of your idiocy.

[shakenbake]

exactly how many years has mccain attended hagee's church? not that you don't know this line already, you just like to ignore it.

Don't fall into his trap yavoon. It is obvious he doesn't want to talk about Obama's Church's "12 precepts and covenantal statements."

[footstepsfrom#27]

for reading fun I took jamus' suggestion and switched the races.

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the White Community
3. Commitment to the White Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the White Work Ethic
7. Commitment to self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the White Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting White Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the White Value System.
Spurious and illogical...the dominant culture needs no special attempt to strengthen it. Obviously the culture that's not dominant frequently does.

Apples to oranges...

[yavoon]

Segregation was not the black man's idea, though a lot of them have now adopted the concept. I'm not sure what you mean by "power over me"...is that really a concern for you? Nowhere do I think there's the implication in all this that Wright or his church have "demanded political allegiance based on skin color"...I didn't notice anything in the list about politics at all. Black churches do the things listed...they feed, clothe, house, educate, counsel, empower, admonish and support their communities with all kinds of outreach. What's political about this? It's what the church is supposed to do. If you're suggesting Obama's spiritual influence is bent on exclusions...in point of fact Obama is MOST known for reaching ACROSS racial, class, economic and political lines. It's tough to suggest he's the candidate of exclusion or his church is supporting this when he's the first black candidate with broad based support, has a long history of forming coalitions with opponents and has constantly advanced this as the primary plank in his political strategy.

you mean besides the 11th precept and covenantal statement that directly states it?

and last I heard obama was the most liberal senator, not some middle of the road aisle reacher. not that facts ever matter.

[yavoon]

Spurious and illogical...the dominant culture needs no special attempt to strengthen it. Obviously the culture that's not dominant frequently does.

Apples to oranges...

marxist split of the oppressor and oppressed eh? I'm down comrade.

[Rigs11]

holier than thou and racist! wow. thats impressive. even if you imagine yourself among friends who are willing to ignore your complete lack of any ability to argue or understand it wouldn't change the factualness of your idiocy.

Argue what? You're a racist, pure and simple. Deal with your own issues before you come out pointing out somebody else's.Otherwise you look like a hypocritical dumbass.

[yavoon]

Argue what? You're a racist, pure and simple. Deal with your own issues before you come out pointing out somebody else's.Otherwise you look like a hypocritical dumbass.

well now that you've reached the leftist orgasm of calling someone a racist and a hypocrite maybe you will be satisfied and let the ppl with something to say continue?

[footstepsfrom#27]

you mean besides the 11th precept and covenantal statement that directly states it?
"Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System"

What exactly does this MEAN? I suggest it probably means adgerance to a set of principles and leadership that advances them...ML King's vision of a colorless society maybe? Bottom line...you don't realy know what is meant here.

and last I heard obama was the most liberal senator, not some middle of the road aisle reacher. not that facts ever matter.
Obama's entire career was built on building coalitions. You obviously are unaware of the facts. And who said he's "the most liberal senator". The dude favors capital punishment...he compliments Ronald Reagan in his book, The Audacity of Hope...he's worked for campaign finance reform and is the only candidate who takes zero corporate PAC money...all things that hardly qualify him as the biggest liberal in the Senate.

[yavoon]

"Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System"

What exactly does this MEAN? I suggest it probably means adgerance to a set of principles and leadership that advances them...ML King's vision of a colorless society maybe? Bottom line...you don't realy know what is meant here.


Obama's entire career was built on building coalitions. You obviously are unaware of the facts. And who said he's "the most liberal senator". The dude favors capital punishment...he compliments Ronald Reagan in his book, The Audacity of Hope...he's worked for campaign finance reform and is the only candidate who takes zero corporate PAC money...all things that hardly qualify him as the biggest liberal in the Senate.

what you quoted was me missing one of the blacks while I was switching it to white. I'm not sure why you'd reply to that.

and how is not taking PAC money building a coalition? or is this one of those things where supporting your thesis is irrelevant so long as you consider it something good to say? tighten up the argument.

also I'd recommend splitting criticisms of obama and the church. I actually like obama significantly more than the church, or reverend wright. both of the latter I suspect have deep dark closets of anti-american and anti-semitic tirades.

[footstepsfrom#27]

what you quoted was me missing one of the blacks while I was switching it to white. I'm not sure why you'd reply to that.
I simply pasted the 11th precept you referenced and didn't realize I hadn't switched the "white" to "black"...careless mistake. More to the point...what does this MEAN? The fact is...we don't know. I'm guessing it's got something to do with principles they stand on and committment to leadership that supports those principles but that doesn't seem to controversial IMO. Also...post a link to these precepts please because I didn't see any of this on their website, but I did notice that you failed to link a couple of other important things on their site, found here: http://www.tucc.org/home.htm

1) From the Statement of Faith, a recognition of racial unity in the church as the desire of God: "You bestow upon us your Holy Spirit, creating and renewing the church of Jesus Christ, binding in covenant faithful people of all ages, tongues, and races."

2) From the Mission Statement, a call to liberation that includes everyone, not just blacks: As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family.

The Statement of Faith and the Mission Statement are the two key documents in a church that members standardize agreement on.
and how is not taking PAC money building a coalition? or is this one of those things where supporting your thesis is irrelevant so long as you consider it something good to say? tighten up the argument.
PAC money to political candidates means they're essentially bought by corporations. Obama hasn't accepted any money from them and owes no allegiance to them, hence he's been able to work with anyone he wanted to. On this fact alone, he's unique among all the Presidential candidates in recent memory.

[yavoon]

I simply pasted the 11th precept you referenced and didn't realize I hadn't switched the "white" to "black"...careless mistake. More to the point...what does this MEAN? The fact is...we don't know. I'm guessing it's got something to do with principles they stand on and committment to leadership that supports those principles but that doesn't seem to controversial IMO. Also...post a link to these precepts please because I didn't see any of this on their website, but I did notice that you failed to link a couple of other important things on their site, found here: http://www.tucc.org/home.htm

1) From the Statement of Faith, a recognition of racial unity in the church as the desire of God: "You bestow upon us your Holy Spirit, creating and renewing the church of Jesus Christ, binding in covenant faithful people of all ages, tongues, and races."

2) From the Mission Statement, a call to liberation that includes everyone, not just blacks: [I]As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation[b]not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family.[b]I]

The Statement of Faith and the Mission Statement are the two key documents in a church that members standardize agreement on.

PAC money to political candidates means they're essentially bought by corporations. Obama hasn't accepted any money from them and owes no allegiance to them, hence he's been able to work with anyone he wanted to. On this fact alone, he's unique among all the Presidential candidates in recent memory.

google 12 precepts and covenantal statements, its been scrubbed from the website when the wright thing blew up. down the memory hole.

and does that mean money from teachers unions means ppl are bought by the teachers union? because I think the teachers union is much more destructive than most corporations. and I think the tort lawyers are nearly downright evil.

and I'm curious are you now arguing that the 12 precepts are bad? because previously you said they were perfectly fine and that demanding political allegiance to leaders based upon skin color was ok because blacks are the oppressed class(marx trademark). and now there is this new tack.

[yavoon]

I think I found it, but it use to be on the about page just above the "10 point vision."

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%20value%20system.pdf

also your link doesn't take me to those things you pasted, though I assume they are somewhere on the sight map.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Argue what? You're a racist, pure and simple. Deal with your own issues before you come out pointing out somebody else's.Otherwise you look like a hypocritical dumbass.

:yep:

And Footsteps is correct: Baboon knows the only way the right can "win" this November is by steering the discussion as far away from Iraq, the economy, and the Bush/GOP record as possible.

http://www.bartcop.com/4000-3-trillion.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/spewing-trio.gif

[footstepsfrom#27]

google 12 precepts and covenantal statements, its been scrubbed from the website when the wright thing blew up. down the memory hole.
The link is here: http://web.archive.org/web/20060411204951/http://www.tucc.org/about.htm Frankly I don't have a big problem with any of this. The church states that they are an unashamedly African American church...they're in a black community...they're commited to black liberation theology...so are lots of black churches in the US. Whites also attend some of those churches as well, and I found references to whites being welcomed at this church. Most of the precepts listed are race neutral...things like commitment to God, education and excellence, discipline, hard work, commitment to community with financial resources...if they want to characterize their value system as uniquely black, perhaps it's because our country has chosen to ignore our own Declaration of Indpendence for about 200 years, and only recently has tried to reverse the cruelties of the past. Healing doesn't happen overnight so why do we expect it to? The things listed there are overwhelmingly positive and stand in stark contrast to much of what passes for "culture" in inner city America's violent streets. If they attract young blacks who might otherwise not be in church and support the message of black liberation with positive themes like this, so what?
and does that mean money from teachers unions means ppl are bought by the teachers union? because I think the teachers union is much more destructive than most corporations. and I think the tort lawyers are nearly downright evil.
Buying influence is buying influence IMO.
and I'm curious are you now arguing that the 12 precepts are bad? because previously you said they were perfectly fine and that demanding political allegiance to leaders based upon skin color was ok because blacks are the oppressed class(marx trademark). and now there is this new tack.
No actually I said I didn't see this as a call for political allegiance, but rather one that fits their theology of liberation...I'm not an advocate of it but it's based on liberation themes found in the Bible...specifically the slavery of Israel to Egypt and subsequent deliverance by divine edict and guidance. Is it political? Sure in some respects, but I don't have a problem with something that emphasizes a slew of positive responses to God, family and society, and other than us being embarassed that they're not enthusiastically embracing the concept of America like we think they ought to...I don't see a problem.

We have about 400 years of abuse and about 40 worth of progress here...not surprisingly some people still remember the past, especially those who lived in some of it. Let's get over it. This is really only important to people who choose to ignore everything they see of what Obama's doing and has done in public life. I don't see his church as relevant, certainly not a decisive factor in his qualfications for the office.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I think I found it, but it use to be on the about page just above the "10 point vision."

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%20value%20system.pdf

also your link doesn't take me to those things you pasted, though I assume they are somewhere on the sight map.
No I posted the home page but just go to the "about us" and "mission statement" pages.

[yavoon]

The link is here: http://web.archive.org/web/20060411204951/http://www.tucc.org/about.htm Frankly I don't have a big problem with any of this. The church states that they are an unashamedly African American church...they're in a black community...they're commited to black liberation theology...so are lots of black churches in the US. Whites also attend some of those churches as well, and I found references to whites being welcomed at this church. Most of the precepts listed are race neutral...things like commitment to God, education and excellence, discipline, hard work, commitment to community with financial resources...if they want to characterize their value system as uniquely black, perhaps it's because our country has chosen to ignore our own Declaration of Indpendence for about 200 years, and only recently has tried to reverse the cruelties of the past. Healing doesn't happen overnight so why do we expect it to? The things listed there are overwhelmingly positive and stand in stark contrast to much of what passes for "culture" in inner city America's violent streets. If they attract young blacks who might otherwise not be in church and support the message of black liberation with positive themes like this, so what?

Buying influence is buying influence IMO.

No actually I said I didn't see this as a call for political allegiance, but rather one that fits their theology of liberation...I'm not an advocate of it but it's based on liberation themes found in the Bible...specifically the slavery of Israel to Egypt and subsequent deliverance by divine edict and guidance. Is it political? Sure in some respects, but I don't have a problem with something that emphasizes a slew of positive responses to God, family and society, and other than us being embarassed that they're not enthusiastically embracing the concept of America like we think they ought to...I don't see a problem.

We have about 400 years of abuse and about 40 worth of progress here...not surprisingly some people still remember the past, especially those who lived in some of it. Let's get over it. This is really only important to people who choose to ignore everything they see of what Obama's doing and has done in public life. I don't see his church as relevant, certainly not a decisive factor in his qualfications for the office.

once again marxist oppressor/oppressed dichotomy justifies minority racism. thats what it comes down to really. while I have some sympathy to racist organizations working in their self-segregating communities. they don't work for me on a national political level. eventually its likely america won't have a majority ethnicity, and we would lose one even sooner if the "majority ethnicity" didn't keep absorbing ppl, like the irish and the jews and the eastern europeans into the majority. what then? white churches for white power and black churches for black power and latino churches for latino power? blacks can only avoid reciprocity so long before their forgivable racism causes backlash balkanization. the largest race war in america right now is latino vs black.

and what do you mean chose to ignore everything obama says? he's running a political campaign for chrissakes. you're saying I should ignore his church's beliefs for 20 years and believe a stump speech? seriously? is taht what you're suggesting? are you so entranced by obama that his speeches now make up the totality of his persona?

and keep this in mind, obama is NOT descended from an american slave. he was not raised by descendants american slaves, he is infact raised by whites, and went to very exclusive schools. I don't know what his high school cost/year back in the day, but now its 16000/year. he chose, with extreme personal freedom to join that church. he has no real connection to segregation, or jim crow, and if he has any connection to slavery its more likely his relatives owned slaves(on the black and white side).

[footstepsfrom#27]

once again marxist oppressor/oppressed dichotomy justifies minority racism. thats what it comes down to really. while I have some sympathy to racist organizations working in their self-segregating communities. they don't work for me on a national political level.
What the devil are you even talking about? Marxism? "justifies minority racism"? Who are we to tell people who lived in the disgusting cess pool of hatred that characterized the first 70 years of the 20th century how soon they need to "get over it" and wave the flag? Maybe some of these folks have a RIGHT to be pissed? Ever think of that?
eventually its likely america won't have a majority ethnicity...
Works for me.
...and we would lose one even sooner if the "majority ethnicity" didn't keep absorbing ppl, like the irish and the jews and the eastern europeans into the majority. what then? white churches for white power and black churches for black power and latino churches for latino power?
The church in America is ALREADY segregated into white/black/latino...didn't you know that? It's a testimony to progress that some churches are now multicultural but their numbers are fewer than the racially monolithic churches.
blacks can only avoid reciprocity so long before their forgivable racism causes backlash balkanization.
No, the majority of people in this country are starting to get it...we ****** up for 400 years and it's gonne take a few more to get beyond the past. Only the nut jobs like Arian Nations and their ilk talk like this.
the largest race war in america right now is latino vs black.
Please...LOL
and what do you mean chose to ignore everything obama says? he's running a political campaign for chrissakes. you're saying I should ignore his church's beliefs for 20 years and believe a stump speech? seriously? is taht what you're suggesting? are you so entranced by obama that his speeches now make up the totality of his persona?
Wright preached for 36 years in that church. You've heard about 36 seconds worth of what he said. Whose making up the "totality of his persona" based on ignoring things? :rofl:
and keep this in mind, obama is NOT descended from an american slave. he is not raised by american slaves, he is infact raised by whites, and went to very exclusive schools. I don't know what his high school cost/year back in the day, but now its 16000/year. he chose, with extreme personal freedom to join that church. he has no real connection to segregation, or jim crow, and if he has any connection to slavery its more likely his relatives owned slaves.
Who cares? I was talking about Wright.

[yavoon]

What the devil are you even talking about? Marxism? "justifies minority racism"? Who are we to tell people who lived in the disgusting cess pool of hatred that characterized the first 70 years of the 20th century how soon they need to "get over it" and wave the flag? Maybe some of these folks have a RIGHT to be pissed? Ever think of that?

Works for me.

The church in America is ALREADY segregated into white/black/latino...didn't you know that? It's a testimony to progress that some churches are now multicultural but their numbers are fewer than the racially monolithic churches.

No, the majority of people in this country are starting to get it...we ****** up for 400 years and it's gonne take a few more to get beyond the past. Only the nut jobs like Arian Nations and their ilk talk like this.

Please...LOL

Wright preached for 36 years in that church. You've heard about 36 seconds worth of what he said. Whose making up the "totality of his persona" based on ignoring things? :rofl:

Who cares? I was talking about Wright.

if the social concept or racism does not include reciprocity then it can only exist by the screaming hatred of america and the propagation of extreme shame and guilt. if you think that the left is capable of screaming racist at the american population then go for it.

and even if we imagine your hypothesis, which IMO is racist. that wright is perfectly legitimate to be anti-american and anti-semitic, that doesn't give obama a pass to join the church. he has NONE of the baggage you so gleefully love to point out.

[footstepsfrom#27]

if the social concept or racism does not include reciprocity then it can only exist by the screaming hatred of america and the propagation of extreme shame and guilt. if you think that the left is capable of screaming racist at the american population then go for it.

and even if we imagine your hypothesis, which IMO is racist. that wright is perfectly legitimate to be anti-american and anti-semitic, that doesn't give obama a pass to join the church. he has NONE of the baggage you so gleefully love to point out.
Most people attend church because of the people who go there, not the minister. In any case, I could care less about this cause we have a lot bigger issues to solve. The only people who are going to have a big problem with this are those looking for a reason not to vote for him anyway.

[yavoon]

Most people attend church because of the people who go there, not the minister. In any case, I could care less about this cause we have a lot bigger issues to solve. The only people who are going to have a big problem with this are those looking for a reason not to vote for him anyway.

obama said reverend wright specifically brought him to christianity. I too wonder why obama joined the church though. here's an interesting(and cynical) conjecture that does not saddle obama with the church's specifically espoused doctrine.

that he knew he wasn't black enough, he knew all the things that I pointed out earlier that he had all but no connection to african-americans. so he joined the most afro-centric, stridently and proudly black church he could find which also had a very prominent pastor. that got him a great political base in chicago. and now that he needs to be the ethereal non-racial/post-racial candidate he needs to somehow not throw liberation theology under the bus while convincing ppl that he doesn't believe in liberation theology.

[footstepsfrom#27]

that he knew he wasn't black enough, he knew all the things that I pointed out earlier that he had all but no connection to african-americans.
Bunk. He never said that. He said OTHERS had said that.
so he joined the most afro-centric, stridently and proudly black church he could find which also had a very prominent pastor. that got him a great political base in chicago.
He worked in Harlem first, and he didn't join the church to find political support. He didn't even run for political office till 1996.

[yavoon]

Bunk. He never said that. He said OTHERS had said that.

He worked in Harlem first, and he didn't join the church to find political support. He didn't even run for political office till 1996.

so? you think he woke up one day when he was 30+ years old and said "You know what I'm gna be a politician." you seem to really be in the tank for this guy. and obviously he would never say "he's not black enough." I was making conjecture on what he was thinking.

the alternative of course is that he believed in the goals and ideals of black liberation theology. because one thing I DON'T believe is that somehow he was unaware of black liberation theology for 2 decades at a church.

[footstepsfrom#27]

the alternative of course is that he believed in the goals and ideals of black liberation theology.
Do you even know what those goals and ideals are?
because one thing I DON'T believe is that somehow he was unaware of black liberation theology for 2 decades at a church.
Who cares? Martin Luther King Jr. held tennents of black liberation theology also. Basically it's merely the view of the life of Jesus that states that his primary mission was liberation. Black liberation theologians believe the white Christian church has failed to exemplify the mission of liberation and abandoned their concern for the social plight of the poor, and in fact have contributed to that plight as well. Hence, they see the message of Christianity as relevant to blacks in crisis only as it relates to empowering change in the present, as opposed to stressing the benefits of reward in the after life. This criticism evoked of the white church is also the same one frequently expressed by non believers and even many within the white church itself. It's led black liberation theology to take a go it alone, or seperatist position with regard to the white Christian church. In other wrods, black liberation theology sees the mission of delivering the poor from oppression as being their responsibility rather than somebody elses.

Pretty scarry stuff huh?

[Bronco Jamus]

Spurious and illogical...the dominant culture needs no special attempt to strengthen it. Obviously the culture that's not dominant frequently does.

Apples to oranges...

Dominant culture? That's ridiculous. There is no dominant culture in this country. It's a racist church. There is no excuse for it.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Dominant culture? That's ridiculous. There is no dominant culture in this country. It's a racist church. There is no excuse for it.
You must be living on another planet if you think white culture and society haven't dominated blacks in this country. You're obviously ignorant about the nature of the black church as well. Do a little research so you'll at least understand the context of things here.

Admit it...the only thing you know about this church is what you saw in a 30 second sound bite.

[Bronco Jamus]

The "black church" is a racist concept. Just like a "white church" or "Asian church" would be racist concepts. Get over it. Mister Wright and his thoughts are part of the problem, not part of any solution.

You talk about dominant cultures. It's the nature if the universe to reach homostasis. As much as there is give, there is take. We all influence each other as a whole. Sure there was a time when when what you say is true, and that time has longed past, and every day we get further away from it. Anything else anymore is an excuse for ones failures.

[Spider]

Yavb**** is a ****ing Idiot , but I will take this on ..... Chances are I will be called a racist , but I dont give a rats ass ........ Now with that said , I think religion is bull**** . but here it goes ..... to those that call me aracist , **** off and eat **** .....



1. Commitment to God
most already have this .... big ****ing shocker hey .....
2. Commitment to the Black Community This is a must , the black community faces more problems then a white community , it must take a serious commitment from the blacks to fix this .......
3. Commitment to the Black Family again a white man , hispanic ,or asian cant fix the black family , it will take a serious dedication from the black male and woman , to get a stable family structure and stop having kids with multiple fathers , and fathers running off , whitey cant fix this
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education you ****ing retard
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic getting good wwork ethic installed into the black male/Female is a bad thing ? dont you ever b**** about welfare again you **** nut ..
7. Commitment to self-Discipline and Self-Respect Damn this preacher to hell for wanting Blacks to have self respect ..... the blacks should be still calling you massah
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness" What only whitey should strive to be rich ?
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community keep[ em on welfare and drug dealing , cant let the black man get all uppity and stuff
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions see we cant let them color folk get uppity , if we do , they will start investing into their own childrens and all
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System yeah them uppity colored folk like Martin Luther King and all were full of watermellon and chitlins ..... no need to emulate his phiolosphy and practice it .... go get a booty all then a 40 , smoke some crack know your role colored boy
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System. yeah screw the family values you guys once had in africa , before whitey came and ripped your families apart buy selling and trading kids of slaves ...... Whitey knows whats best for you ., you uppity colored man

I especially like #11.
you also like bright shiny object .....

[W*GS]

Yet another reason not to trust "religious" freakshow types and their believers.

Oh, for a rational, secular, atheist presidential candidate...

[Spider]

The "black church" is a racist concept. Just like a "white church" or "Asian church" would be racist concepts. Get over it. Mister Wright and his thoughts are part of the problem, not part of any solution.

You talk about dominant cultures. It's the nature if the universe to reach homostasis. As much as there is give, there is take. We all influence each other as a whole. Sure there was a time when when what you say is true, and that time has longed past, and every day we get further away from it. Anything else anymore is an excuse for ones failures.
I see so blacks, hispanics , asians , should just abandon their heritage , forget their culture , and assume the way of life of whitey and it all would be good huh ?
Damn glad to see whitey has all the answers

[footstepsfrom#27]

LMAO @ Spider...:rofl:

[W*GS]

Can someone explain these to me:

[...]
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
[...]
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
[...]
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.[...]


What is the "Black Work Ethic"? What is "Middleclassness"? What is the "Black Value System"?

[Spider]

Can someone explain these to me:



What is the "Black Work Ethic"? What is "Middleclassness"? What is the "Black Value System"?

well Mr . I got an education so I dont have to work for a living , let me school you .....( shocker you dont know work ethic \'Sarcasim/)but it is a man or woman that happenes to be black , that has a strong work ethic ......
See W*GS ,this may come as a shock to you , but Black people will not relate to my work ethic as a a role model like you do , they will say whitey cant relate to me , and guess what , they are right , I dont know what it is to be black . but now a Rod Smith type of guy they will look up to , a black guy with a work ethic

[W*GS]

What's the difference between the "Black" work ethic and the "White/Asian/Brown/Green/Purple" work ethic?

[Bronco Jamus]

What's the difference between the "Black" work ethic and the "White/Asian/Brown/Green/Purple" work ethic?

There isn't. A work ethic is either good or bad, exist or not exist. Putting a race in front of it is racist in nature.

[Spider]

What's the difference between the "Black" work ethic and the "White/Asian/Brown/Green/Purple" work ethic?

How do you know what he said or the context of it

[MplsBronco]

What's racist is slavery, lynching, oppression, segregation, discrimination. Some people need to check on who the real racists are because it's not in this church's mission statement. Amazing how clueless some people are. I used to think Bush stole the elections but seeing the idiocy of some people makes me now realize that there really are people out there that are just that damn dumb!

[Bronco Jamus]

What's racist is slavery, lynching, oppression, segregation, discrimination. Some people need to check on who the real racists are because it's not in this church's mission statement. Amazing how clueless some people are. I used to think Bush stole the elections but seeing the idiocy of some people makes me now realize that there really are people out there that are just that damn dumb!

Racism is racism. It doesn't matter the race committing the offense. The notion that one race is superior in some way or the exclusion or denoting of one race over another is racism. That is clearly the message contained in the mission statement. Slavery, lynching, and oppression are tools of tryanny and on equal footing with racism. Segregation and discrimination are tools of racism, but not solely confined to racism.

[Bob]

I never said he was a racist. But going with this theme...the church is supposed to be a force for positive change in the community among other things. Exactly what do you see wrong with black churches trying to help the black community? Keep in mind that improving inner city conditions with the church as the agent of change saves you tax money.

I am concerned several things -- one is the double standard that seems in place. Who here honestly believes that if every word that Obama's preacher were said by McCain's preacher, and the word "Black" was replaced by "White" that McCain would have been pushed out of the race, and would have checked himself into treatment for his misplaced hate?

So, I question why it is ok for a liberal to say something, but not a conservative? Or is there a double standard in place for what a black person can say, vs a white person? If one is part of a group that has been mistreated in the past does that mean they get a free pass on this issue? I know that Obama is a Dem, but would you not be calling for McCain's head if the situation was reversed? Am I the only conservative around here who who throw McCain under a bus for doing the same thing?

[Rohirrim]

Do you even know what those goals and ideals are?

Who cares? Martin Luther King Jr. held tennents of black liberation theology also. Basically it's merely the view of the life of Jesus that states that his primary mission was liberation. Black liberation theologians believe the white Christian church has failed to exemplify the mission of liberation and abandoned their concern for the social plight of the poor, and in fact have contributed to that plight as well. Hence, they see the message of Christianity as relevant to blacks in crisis only as it relates to empowering change in the present, as opposed to stressing the benefits of reward in the after life. This criticism evoked of the white church is also the same one frequently expressed by non believers and even many within the white church itself. It's led black liberation theology to take a go it alone, or seperatist position with regard to the white Christian church. In other wrods, black liberation theology sees the mission of delivering the poor from oppression as being their responsibility rather than somebody elses.

Pretty scarry stuff huh?

I wonder why they bestowed one of their highest honors on Louis Farrakhan, whose message is about as anti-Christian as it comes?

[Maximus]

The sad part about all this commentary is the fact that there are some people who aren’t able or are unwilling to try to understand what it takes to break the psychological shackles that still exist because of slavery, institutional racism and segregation. The message that is contained within the 12 tenants promotes the concept of Self-Actualization. It is no consequence, and it should not surprise anyone that Abraham Maslow’s concepts of the Hierarchy of Human Needs are included in the mission statement of the church. Again, what is surprising is the audacity or sheer ignorance of people who want to claim that it is racist for African-Americans or any group to support their own path to Self-Actualization.

Again, the terms Racist and Racism are being thrown around without regard to what the terms really mean. There are only a few reasons why this could be happening. When a person does not want to learn or refuses to have an open mind about culture or race related differences little wiggle room is left to have an open discussion about what is really happening and the problems of the oppressed remain. The truth of the problem remains always remains obscure to the accuser, but the truth about the character of the accuser is often revealed to the defender.

Contrary to popular belief, the burden of learning is not relegated to the person who is defending the accusations. The burden lies squarely on the accuser. The refusal to learn suggests that the accuser has bigoted principals. What is on display here is what I like to call the modern day Willie Lynch mentality and the feigned misunderstanding of why African-Americans need to apply these techniques in order to claim our rightful position in American Society. The truth is bigotry is alive and well

The Definition of a Bigot

A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
Racism is racism. It doesn't matter the race committing the offense. The notion that one race is superior in some way or the exclusion or denoting of one race over another is racism. That is clearly the message contained in the mission statement. Slavery, lynching, and oppression are tools of tryanny and on equal footing with racism. Segregation and discrimination are tools of racism, but not solely confined to racism.

In order to speak about the subject of racism on an intelligent level requires both participants to know the subject matter. In this particular case you are lacking understanding of the term Racist and Racism vs Prejudice or Cultural Bias. You have no evidence to prove that the church claims that African Americans are superior to any race. However, the 12 points actually point to the opposite. They are a tool to help achieve self-actualization.

In another thread, I explained this yet, on this thread you still remain blindly devoted to your beliefs and opinion despite the facts
that are coming from people who participate in this environment and from people who have never participated but have a broader understanding of cultural differences. Feigned ignorance, denial, silence and pseudo concern for equality while harboring resentment are all tools of racism.

[W*GS]

I bet Bill Cosby isn't high on Obama's (or Rev. Wright's) list of good Black people.

[cutthemdown]

wow that's pretty bad. It's time for blacks to change precepts like that. It makes it sound like a white person would not be welcome. They might as well just come out and say we hate whitey and we ain't changing anytime soon.

[cutthemdown]

Maximus I agree to be a racists you have to do more then just believe in cultural prejudices. I have also lamented on this subject.

This church obviously isn't a place a white person would feel welcome. I mean the tenets don't say anything about whats good for white people. My problem with it isn't that it's racist. It's that it is divisive. I don't care if a black person wants to go to that church. I don't care if a black person wants to be president. I just care when I feel that black people maybe aren't ready to lead the country because maybe they aren't self actualized yet. Maybe they do need more time because until tenents like that aren't needed it sure seems like any person from that church would have to push the black agenda over the countries agenda.

There is more at stake here then just black self actualization. This is about the whole country and what's best for White, Black, Mexican, Asian, South American etc etc.

[Maximus]

Yavb**** is a ****ing Idiot , but I will take this on ..... Chances are I will be called a racist , but I dont give a rats ass ........ Now with that said , I think religion is bull**** . but here it goes ..... to those that call me aracist , **** off and eat **** .....



most already have this .... big ****ing shocker hey .....
This is a must , the black community faces more problems then a white community , it must take a serious commitment from the blacks to fix this .......
again a white man , hispanic ,or asian cant fix the black family , it will take a serious dedication from the black male and woman , to get a stable family structure and stop having kids with multiple fathers , and fathers running off , whitey cant fix this
you ****ing retard
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
getting good wwork ethic installed into the black male/Female is a bad thing ? dont you ever b**** about welfare again you **** nut ..
Damn this preacher to hell for wanting Blacks to have self respect ..... the blacks should be still calling you massah
What only whitey should strive to be rich ?
keep[ em on welfare and drug dealing , cant let the black man get all uppity and stuff
see we cant let them color folk get uppity , if we do , they will start investing into their own childrens and all
yeah them uppity colored folk like Martin Luther King and all were full of watermellon and chitlins ..... no need to emulate his phiolosphy and practice it .... go get a booty all then a 40 , smoke some crack know your role colored boy
yeah screw the family values you guys once had in africa , before whitey came and ripped your families apart buy selling and trading kids of slaves ...... Whitey knows whats best for you ., you uppity colored man


you also like bright shiny object .....

You must have a power nailer... you said it better than I could!

[Maximus]

I bet Bill Cosby isn't high on Obama's (or Rev. Wright's) list of good Black people.

Bill Cosby advocates the same type of ideas that Obama has. It is clear from some of the comments that people don't know where African Americans stand. Bill Cosby would be at odds with buffoons like Jason Whitlock but that's a different story.

[Bronco Jamus]

Racism is racism and by denoting a race in front of others is racism. Pure and simple. Dance around it all you wish, but the fact is those mission statements are racist and have no place in our country.

[Maximus]

This church obviously isn't a place a white person would feel welcome. I mean the tenets don't say anything about whats good for white people.

Well there are two things to address here. First, there are white people in the congregation and I’m sure that the church welcomes all members of any race. Predominantly black churches have been doing this for my entire memory. Historically, African-Americans have always been more inclusive because of the discrimination that we have encountered. Not all of us are but, in general it is easier for a white person to be accepted in our community than it is for a black person to be accepted in the white community.

It is true that the tenants don’t speak for white people. To put it bluntly the tenants are meant to heal the broken psyche of African-Americans. Our communities, spending habits and the abandonment of the educational opportunities are not issues that have historically destroyed white communities.

My problem with it isn't that it's racist. It's that it is divisive.

Excuse me for chopping up your response, but it is necessary in this case. This statement goes to the core of the entire misunderstanding and I hope that I can explain why you are incorrect. The tenants are not divisive neither are the anecdotes and lofty accusations.

Back to the tenants… They are actually inclusive. In order for African Americans to be a part of Society, we must have the mentality and believe that we are equal to everyone in society. This means we must be self reliant, we must strive to be the best in all areas. To gain equal footing I was told that I had to be educated but, education isn’t enough… I was told that I had to be better in order to gain equal status! I know that sounds terrible. However if you listen, it means we can never settle for 100 percent if we want to be equal or if we want full acceptance in American society; We have to be 150 percent to gain equal status. The best example of this is Barack Obama vs George W Bush. Bush is allowed to be a “C” student and run for president. Bush could be a business failure and become president. Obama had to be an “A” student with an accumulation of accomplishments to be taken seriously.
Finally, African Americans have to accept responsibility for our own destiny. We cannot rely on anyone bailing us out of our situation we have to make our own way. This is what the tenants are about.

I don't care if a black person wants to go to that church. I don't care if a black person wants to be president. I just care when I feel that black people maybe aren't ready to lead the country because maybe they aren't self actualized yet.
It Sounds like there is a level of underlying fear of backlash in your statement. Let me correct the fallacy. Black People will not be running the country if Obama wins. Barack Obama will be running the country. Obama is Half White! Golf didn’t go to hell because Tiger Woods is the best did it? The other philosophical problem that I have is the idea that anyone is serious enough to think that because Obama or any intelligent Black person may not be qualified because of being… Black. Intelligence is the main concern not skin tone or perceived cultural obstacles.

Maybe they do need more time because until tenents like that aren't needed it sure seems like any person from that church would have to push the black agenda over the countries agenda.

Again, for the black community the tenants are needed. Nevertheless, let me dispel another fallacy. The political, Spiritual and Cultural ideologies are all separated. The tenants are not preached about in regular sermons. They might be incorporated through scripture, but they are not the topic of conversation during church. The tenants are put into action through community projects not sermons. I think the biggest problem is the idea that African-Americans including Obama follow Pastors teachings implicitly. We are not lemmings who follow blindly.

Black Agenda… What exactly is that? Our Agenda is your agenda with a strong dose of equality incorporated. Should that be feared?

[Swedish Extrovert]

I'm kind of disturbed by some of the things I've read on this thread.

I can understand hostility of white people who think along the lines of "Why is NAACP good and NAAWP racist."

It kind of flips back to the idea that the whites ARE in power.

From what I understand, Wright and TUCC are fairly representitive of the Black community at large. I think America's response to this whole thing is rather indicative of the division in this country.

The point is, African Americans are a minority, let's call "identity group" in, let's call a "white nation."

Not only have they been oppressed, but they are still in a minority status, and there are still morons out there who insist upon their superiority - this includes people like Farrakhan.

One of my favorite non-fiction writers, Christopher Hitchens cited a study - a biological study - that proves that the differences between white or black are so incredibly minuscule, that these cultural clashes are simply in vain.

White is one in the same with black. Yet still, according to this week's TIME, blacks are 12 times more likely to end up in prison, and makes less than half what the average white man makes.

In my time in the military, I have met some incredibly well-spoken and intelligent black people who found the military as a way out of poverty and crime. Liberal, conservative - all kinds... and I've met some ****ing dumb white boys, too, in the same position as these blacks. The same fate overtakes them both despite the fact that one squandered a perfectly good education, while the other persevered in a deteriorating southern school.

Why not give the black community just this... let them form groups for their advancement. After all, it's an advancement in SOCIETY, where whites clearly have the advantage now.

It's really difficult for me to express my feelings on this subject eloquently. But these cultural aspects, and the headstrong tradition of both racial communities creates a barrier - of course whites are going to find what Wright said, and the things his church stand for offensive - but whites are in the MAJORITY - and the minority opinion isn't represented. I'm sure the black community finds many offensive things in the speech of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.

Now I don't agree with much of what Wright is saying, but the middle ground between races needs to be where our heart lies. Unfortunately there's a wall there right now.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Black Agenda… What exactly is that? Our Agenda is your agenda with a strong dose of equality incorporated. Should that be feared?
Nope.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Why not give the black community just this... let them form groups for their advancement. After all, it's an advancement in SOCIETY, where whites clearly have the advantage now.

It's really difficult for me to express my feelings on this subject eloquently. But these cultural aspects, and the headstrong tradition of both racial communities creates a barrier - of course whites are going to find what Wright said, and the things his church stand for offensive - but whites are in the MAJORITY - and the minority opinion isn't represented. I'm sure the black community finds many offensive things in the speech of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.

Now I don't agree with much of what Wright is saying, but the middle ground between races needs to be where our heart lies. Unfortunately there's a wall there right now.
Well said.

[Maximus]

Racism is racism and by denoting a race in front of others is racism. Pure and simple. Dance around it all you wish, but the fact is those mission statements are racist and have no place in our country.

You want to talk about racism... let's talk about it... Don't **** around with it. Making accusations is empty and hollow rhetoric that doesn't mean anything and it doesn't solve anything. If you don't want to learn and grow... then you're a lost cause.

Class is in session!

Lets compare tenants....

The 5 tenants of Willie Lynch

1. Maintain strict discipline.
2. Instill belief of personal inferiority.
3. Develop awe of master’s power ( instill fear).
4. Accept master’s standards of “good conduct.”
5. Develop a habit of perfect dependence.

TUCC's Mission Statement According to ?

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the Black Community
3. Commitment to the Black Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
7. Commitment to self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middle classness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
12. Personal commitment to embrace the Black Value System.

TUCC's Real Mission Statement committed to a 10-point Vision:

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.
2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.
3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.


Willie Lynch's Speech of 1712

December 25, 1712

Gentlemen:

I greet you here on the bank of the James River in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and twelve. First, I shall thank you, the gentlemen of the Colony of Virginia, for bringing me here. I am here to help you solve some of your problems with slaves. Your invitation reached me on my modest plantation in the West Indies, where I have experimented with some of the newest and still the oldest methods for control of slaves. Ancient Rome's would envy us if my program is implemented.As our boat sailed south on the James River, named for our illustrious King, whose version of the Bible we cherish, I saw enough to know that your problem is not unique. While Rome used cords of wood as crosses for standing human bodies along its highways in great numbers, you are here using the tree and the rope on occasions. I caught the whiff of a dead slave hanging from a tree, a couple miles back. You are not only losing valuable stock by hangings, you are having uprisings, slaves are running away, your crops are sometimes left in the fields too long for maximum profit, You suffer occasional fires, your animals are killed.Gentlemen, you know what your problems are; I do not need to elaborate. I am not here to enumerate your problems, I am here to introduce you to a method of solving them. In my bag here, I have a foolproof method for controlling your black slaves. I guarantee every one of you that if installed correctly it will control the slaves for at least 300 years [2012]. My method is simple. Any member of your family or your overseer can use it. I have outlined a number of differences among the slaves and make the differences bigger. I use fear, distrust and envy for control.These methods have worked on my modest plantation in the West Indies and it will work throughout the South. Take this simple little list of differences and think about them. On top of my list is "age" but it's there only because it starts with an"A." The second is "COLOR" or shade, there is intelligence, size, sex, size of plantations and status on plantations,attitude of owners, whether the slaves live in the valley, on a hill, East, West, North, South, have fine hair, course hair, oris tall or short. Now that you have a list of differences, I shall give you an outline of action, but before that, I shall assure you that distrust is stronger than trust and envy stronger than adulation, respect or admiration. The Black slaves after receiving this indoctrination shall carry on and will become self refueling and self generating for hundreds of years, maybe thousands. Don't forget you must pitch the old black Male vs. the young black Male, and the young black Male against the old black male. You must use the dark skin slaves vs. the light skin slaves, and the light skin slaves vs. the dark skin slaves. You must use the female vs. the male. And the male vs. the female. You must also have you white servants and overseers distrust all Blacks. It is necessary that your slaves trust and depend on us. They must love, respect and trust only us. Gentlemen, these kits are your keys to control. Use them. Have your wives and children use them, never miss an opportunity. If used intensely for one year, the slaves themselves will remain perpetually distrustful of each other.

Thank you gentlemen

Jeramiah Wrights Speech

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

[Maximus]

Willie Lynch and America's Mission statement

LET’S MAKE A SLAVE

It was the interest and business of slave holders to study human nature, and the slave nature in particular, with a view to practical results. I and many of them attained astonishing proficiency in this direction. They had to deal not with earth, wood and stone, but with men and, by every regard, they had for their own safety and prosperity they needed to know the material on which they were to work, conscious of the injustice and wrong they were every hour perpetuating and knowing what they themselves would do. Were they the victims of such wrongs? They were constantly looking for the first signs of the dreaded retribution. They watched therefore with skilled and practiced eyes, and learned to read with great accuracy, the state of mind and heart of the slave, through his sable face. Unusual sobriety, apparent abstractions, sullenness and indifference indeed, any mood out of the common was afforded ground for suspicion and inquiry. Frederick Douglas LET’S MAKE A SLAVE is a study of the scientific process of man-breaking and slave-making. It describes the rationale and results of the Anglo Saxons’ ideas and methods of insuring the master/slave relationship. LET’S MAKE A SLAVE “The Original and Development of a Social Being Called ‘The Negro.’” Let us make a slave. What do we need? First of all, we need a black ****er man, a pregnant ****er woman and her baby ****er boy. Second, we will use the same basic principle that we use in breaking a horse, combined with some more sustaining factors. What we do with horses is that we break them from one form of life to another; that is, we reduce them from their natural state in nature. Whereas nature provides them with the natural capacity to take care of their offspring, we break that natural string of independence from them and thereby create a dependency status, so that we may be able to get from them useful production for our business and pleasure.

CARDINAL PRINCIPLES FOR MAKING A NEGRO

For fear that our future generations may not understand the principles of breaking both of the beast together, the ****er and the horse. We understand that short range planning economics results in periodic economic chaos; so that to avoid turmoil in the economy, it requires us to have breadth and depth in long range comprehensive planning, articulating both skill sharp perceptions. We lay down the following principles for long range comprehensive economic planning. Both horse and ****ers [are] no good to the economy in the wild or natural state. Both must be BROKEN and TIED together for orderly production. For orderly future, special and particular attention must be paid to the FEMALE and the YOUNGEST offspring. Both must be CROSSBRED to produce a variety and division of labor. Both must be taught to respond to a peculiar new LANGUAGE. Psychological and physical instruction of CONTAINMENT must be created for both. We hold the six cardinal principles as truth to be self-evident, based upon following the discourse concerning the economics of breaking and tying the horse and the ****er together, all inclusive of the six principles laid down above. NOTE: Neither principle alone will suffice for good economics. All principles must be employed for orderly good of the nation. Accordingly, both a wild horse and a wild or natur[al] ****er is dangerous even if captured, for they will have the tendency to seek their customary freedom and, in doing so, might kill you in your sleep. You cannot rest. They sleep while you are awake, and are awake while you are asleep. They are DANGEROUS near the family house and it requires too much labor to watch them away from the house. Above all, you cannot get them to work in this natural state. Hence, both the horse and the ****er must be broken; that is breaking them from one form of mental life to another. KEEP THE BODY, TAKE THE MIND! In other words, break the will to resist. Now the breaking process is the same for both the horse and the ****er, only slightly varying in degrees. But, as we said before, there is an art in long range economic planning. YOU MUST KEEP YOUR EYE AND THOUGHTS ON THE FEMALE and the OFFSPRING of the horse and the ****er. A brief discourse in offspring development will shed light on the key to sound economic principles. Pay little attention to the generation of original breaking, but CONCENTRATE ON FUTURE GENERATION. Therefore, if you break the FEMALE mother, she will BREAK the offspring in its early years of development; and when the offspring is old enough to work, she will deliver it up to you, for her normal female protective tendencies will have been lost in the original breaking process. For example, take the case of the wild stud horse, a female horse and an already infant horse and compare the breaking process with two captured ****er males in their natural state, a pregnant ****er woman with her infant offspring. Take the stud horse, break him for limited containment. Completely break the female horse until she becomes very gentle, whereas you or anybody can ride her in her comfort. Breed the mare and the stud until you have the desired offspring. Then, you can turn the stud to freedom until you need him again. Train the female horse whereby she will eat out of your hand, and she will in turn train the infant horse to eat out of your hand, also. When it comes to breaking the uncivilized ****er, use the same process, but vary the degree and step up the pressure, so as to do a complete reversal of the mind. Take the meanest and most restless ****er, strip him of his clothes in front of the remaining male ****ers, the female, and the ****er infant, tar and feather him, tie each leg to a different horse faced in opposite directions, set him afire and beat both horses to pull him apart in front of the remaining ****ers. The next step is to take a bullwhip and beat the remaining ****er males to the point of death, in front of the female and the infant. Don’t kill him, but PUT THE FEAR OF GOD IN HIM, for he can be useful for future breeding.

THE BREAKING PROCESS OF THE AFRICAN WOMAN

Take the female and run a series of tests on her to see if she will submit to your desires willingly. Test her in every way, because she is the most important factor for good economics. If she shows any sign of resistance in submitting completely to your will, do not hesitate to use the bullwhip on her to extract that last bit of out of her. Take care not to kill her, for in doing so, you spoil good economics. When in complete submission, she will train her offsprings in the early years to submit to labor when they become of age. Understanding is the best thing. Therefore, we shall go deeper into this area of the subject matter concerning what we have produced here in this breaking process of the female ****er. We have reversed the relationship; in her natural uncivilized state, she would have a strong dependency on the uncivilized ****er male, and she would have a limited protective tendency toward her independent male offspring and would raise male offsprings to be dependent like her. Nature had provided for this type of balance. We reversed nature by burning and pulling a civilized ****er apart and bullwhipping the other to the point of death, all in her presence. By her being left alone, unprotected, with the MALE IMAGE DESTROYED, the ordeal caused her to move from her psychologically dependent state to a frozen, independent state. In this frozen, psychological state of independence, she will raise her MALE and female offspring in reversed roles. For FEAR of the young male’s life, she will psychologically train him to be MENTALLY WEAK and DEPENDENT, but PHYSICALLY STRONG. Because she has become psychologically independent, she will train her FEMALE offsprings to be psychologically independent. What have you got? You’ve got the ****er WOMAN OUT FRONT AND THE ****er MAN BEHIND AND SCARED. This is a perfect situation of sound sleep and economics. Before the breaking process, we had to be alertly on guard at all times. Now, we can sleep soundly, for out of frozen fear his woman stands guard for us. He cannot get past her early slave-molding process. He is a good tool, now ready to be tied to the horse at a tender age. By the time a ****er boy reaches the age of sixteen, he is soundly broken in and ready for a long life of sound and efficient work and the reproduction of a unit of good labor force. Continually through the breaking of uncivilized savage ****ers, by throwing the ****er female savage into a frozen psychological state of independence, by killing the protective male image, and by creating a submissive dependent mind of the ****er male slave, we have created an orbiting cycle that turns on its own axis forever, unless a phenomenon occurs and re-shifts the position of the male and female slaves. We show what we mean by example. Take the case of the two economic slave units and examine them close.

THE NEGRO MARRIAGE

We breed two ****er males with two ****er females. Then, we take the ****er male away from them and keep them moving and working. Say one ****er female bears a ****er female and the other bears a ****er male; both ****er females—being without influence of the ****er male image, frozen with a independent psychology—will raise their offspring into reverse positions. The one with the female offspring will teach her to be like herself, independent and negotiable (we negotiate with her, through her, by her, negotiates her at will). The one with the ****er male offspring, she being frozen subconscious fear for his life, will raise him to be mentally dependent and weak, but physically strong; in other words, body over mind. Now, in a few years when these two offsprings become fertile for early reproduction, we will mate and breed them and continue the cycle. That is good, sound and long range comprehensive planning.

WARNING: POSSIBLE INTERLOPING NEGATIVES

Earlier, we talked about the non-economic good of the horse and the ****er in their wild or natural state; we talked out the principle of breaking and tying them together for orderly production. Furthermore, we talked about paying particular attention to the female savage and her offspring for orderly future planning, then more recently we stated that, by reversing the positions of the male and female savages, we created an orbiting cycle that turns on its own axis forever unless a phenomenon occurred and reshifts positions of the male and female savages. Our experts warned us about the possibility of this phenomenon occurring, for they say that the mind has a strong drive to correct and re-correct itself over a period of time if it can touch some substantial original historical base; and they advised us that the best way to deal with the phenomenon is to shave off the brute’s mental history and create a multiplicity of phenomena of illusions, so that each illusion will twirl in its own orbit, something similar to floating balls in a vacuum. This creation of multiplicity of phenomena of illusions entails the principle of crossbreeding the ****er and the horse as we stated above, the purpose of which is to create a diversified division of labor; thereby creating different levels of labor and different values of illusion at each connecting level of labor. The results of which is the severance of the points of original beginnings for each sphere illusion. Since we feel that the subject matter may get more complicated as we proceed in laying down our economic plan concerning the purpose, reason and effect of crossbreeding horses and ****ers, we shall lay down the following definition terms for future generations. Orbiting cycle means a thing turning in a given path. Axis means upon which or around which a body turns. Phenomenon means something beyond ordinary conception and inspires awe and wonder. Multiplicity means a great number. Means a globe. Crossbreeding a horse means taking a horse and breeding it with an ass and you get a dumb, backward, ass long-headed mule that is not reproductive nor productive by itself. Crossbreeding ****ers mean taking so many drops of good white blood and putting them into as many ****er women as possible, varying the drops by the various tone that you want, and then letting them breed with each other until another circle of color appears as you desire. What this means is this: Put the ****ers and the horse in a breeding pot, mix some asses and some good white blood and what do you get? You got a multiplicity of colors of ass backward, unusual ****ers, running, tied to backward ass long-headed mules, the one productive of itself, the other sterile. (The one constant, the other dying, we keep the ****er constant for we may replace the mules for another tool) both mule and ****er tied to each other, neither knowing where the other came from and neither productive for itself, nor without each other.

CONTROLLED LANGUAGE

Crossbreeding completed, for further severance from their original beginning, WE MUST COMPLETELY ANNIHILATE THE MOTHER TONGUE of both the new ****er and the new mule, and institute a new language that involves the new life’s work of both. You know language is a peculiar institution. It leads to the heart of a people. The more a foreigner knows about the language of another country the more he is able to move through all levels of that society. Therefore, if the foreigner is an enemy of the country, to the extent that he knows the body of the language, to that extent is the country vulnerable to attack or invasion of a foreign culture. For example, if you take a slave, if you teach him all about your language, he will know all your secrets, and he is then no more a slave, for you can’t fool him any longer, and BEING A FOOL IS ONE OF THE BASIC INGREDIENTS OF ANY INCIDENTS TO THE MAINTENANCE OF THE SLAVERY SYSTEM. For example, if you told a slave that he must perform in getting out “our crops” and he knows the language well, he would know that “our crops” didn’t mean “our crops” and the slavery system would break down, for he would relate on the basis of what “our crops” really meant. So you have to be careful in setting up the new language; for the slaves would soon be in your house, talking to you as “man to man” and that is death to our economic system. In addition, the definitions of words or terms are only a minute part of the process. Values are created and transported by communication through the body of the language. A total society has many interconnected value systems. All the values in the society have bridges of language to connect them for orderly working in the society. But for these language bridges, these many value systems would sharply clash and cause internal strife or civil war, the degree of the conflict being determined by the magnitude of the issues or relative opposing strength in whatever form. For example, if you put a slave in a hog pen and train him to live there and incorporate in him to value it as a way of life completely, the biggest problem you would have out of him is that he would worry you about provisions to keep the hog pen clean, or the same hog pen and make a slip and incorporate something in his language whereby he comes to value a house more than he does his hog pen, you got a problem. He will soon be in your house

[b]TUCC's Mission Statement

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian… Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain “true to our native land,” the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

[Traveler]

Crickets chirping!

[footstepsfrom#27]

Crickets chirping!
Yeah...some of that made me feel like vomiting.

[Spider]

Not good

[Traveler]

Yeah...some of that made me feel like vomiting.

Made me shiver reading that again. We had to read that in Black History in school.

[yavoon]

I'm kind of disturbed by some of the things I've read on this thread.

I can understand hostility of white people who think along the lines of "Why is NAACP good and NAAWP racist."

It kind of flips back to the idea that the whites ARE in power.

From what I understand, Wright and TUCC are fairly representitive of the Black community at large. I think America's response to this whole thing is rather indicative of the division in this country.

The point is, African Americans are a minority, let's call "identity group" in, let's call a "white nation."

Not only have they been oppressed, but they are still in a minority status, and there are still morons out there who insist upon their superiority - this includes people like Farrakhan.

One of my favorite non-fiction writers, Christopher Hitchens cited a study - a biological study - that proves that the differences between white or black are so incredibly minuscule, that these cultural clashes are simply in vain.

White is one in the same with black. Yet still, according to this week's TIME, blacks are 12 times more likely to end up in prison, and makes less than half what the average white man makes.

In my time in the military, I have met some incredibly well-spoken and intelligent black people who found the military as a way out of poverty and crime. Liberal, conservative - all kinds... and I've met some ****ing dumb white boys, too, in the same position as these blacks. The same fate overtakes them both despite the fact that one squandered a perfectly good education, while the other persevered in a deteriorating southern school.

Why not give the black community just this... let them form groups for their advancement. After all, it's an advancement in SOCIETY, where whites clearly have the advantage now.

It's really difficult for me to express my feelings on this subject eloquently. But these cultural aspects, and the headstrong tradition of both racial communities creates a barrier - of course whites are going to find what Wright said, and the things his church stand for offensive - but whites are in the MAJORITY - and the minority opinion isn't represented. I'm sure the black community finds many offensive things in the speech of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.

Now I don't agree with much of what Wright is saying, but the middle ground between races needs to be where our heart lies. Unfortunately there's a wall there right now.

if you say that obama's church is representative of the black community, you do realize that they honored louis farrakhan right?

and I'm fine(sorta) with racist minorities to a minor degree and on a temporary basis. but I'm not giving specifically racist minorities political power over me.

[yavoon]

You want to talk about racism... let's talk about it... Don't **** around with it. Making accusations is empty and hollow rhetoric that doesn't mean anything and it doesn't solve anything. If you don't want to learn and grow... then you're a lost cause.

Class is in session!

Lets compare tenants....

The 5 tenants of Willie Lynch

1. Maintain strict discipline.
2. Instill belief of personal inferiority.
3. Develop awe of master’s power ( instill fear).
4. Accept master’s standards of “good conduct.”
5. Develop a habit of perfect dependence.

TUCC's Mission Statement According to ?

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the Black Community
3. Commitment to the Black Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
7. Commitment to self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middle classness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
12. Personal commitment to embrace the Black Value System.

TUCC's Real Mission Statement committed to a 10-point Vision:

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.
2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.
3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.


Willie Lynch's Speech of 1712

December 25, 1712

Gentlemen:

I greet you here on the bank of the James River in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and twelve. First, I shall thank you, the gentlemen of the Colony of Virginia, for bringing me here. I am here to help you solve some of your problems with slaves. Your invitation reached me on my modest plantation in the West Indies, where I have experimented with some of the newest and still the oldest methods for control of slaves. Ancient Rome's would envy us if my program is implemented.As our boat sailed south on the James River, named for our illustrious King, whose version of the Bible we cherish, I saw enough to know that your problem is not unique. While Rome used cords of wood as crosses for standing human bodies along its highways in great numbers, you are here using the tree and the rope on occasions. I caught the whiff of a dead slave hanging from a tree, a couple miles back. You are not only losing valuable stock by hangings, you are having uprisings, slaves are running away, your crops are sometimes left in the fields too long for maximum profit, You suffer occasional fires, your animals are killed.Gentlemen, you know what your problems are; I do not need to elaborate. I am not here to enumerate your problems, I am here to introduce you to a method of solving them. In my bag here, I have a foolproof method for controlling your black slaves. I guarantee every one of you that if installed correctly it will control the slaves for at least 300 years [2012]. My method is simple. Any member of your family or your overseer can use it. I have outlined a number of differences among the slaves and make the differences bigger. I use fear, distrust and envy for control.These methods have worked on my modest plantation in the West Indies and it will work throughout the South. Take this simple little list of differences and think about them. On top of my list is "age" but it's there only because it starts with an"A." The second is "COLOR" or shade, there is intelligence, size, sex, size of plantations and status on plantations,attitude of owners, whether the slaves live in the valley, on a hill, East, West, North, South, have fine hair, course hair, oris tall or short. Now that you have a list of differences, I shall give you an outline of action, but before that, I shall assure you that distrust is stronger than trust and envy stronger than adulation, respect or admiration. The Black slaves after receiving this indoctrination shall carry on and will become self refueling and self generating for hundreds of years, maybe thousands. Don't forget you must pitch the old black Male vs. the young black Male, and the young black Male against the old black male. You must use the dark skin slaves vs. the light skin slaves, and the light skin slaves vs. the dark skin slaves. You must use the female vs. the male. And the male vs. the female. You must also have you white servants and overseers distrust all Blacks. It is necessary that your slaves trust and depend on us. They must love, respect and trust only us. Gentlemen, these kits are your keys to control. Use them. Have your wives and children use them, never miss an opportunity. If used intensely for one year, the slaves themselves will remain perpetually distrustful of each other.

Thank you gentlemen

Jeramiah Wrights Speech

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ


and we see here the basic principle of the democratic party, the promotion of ever more racism fueled by necessity by hatred of america. the more victims and the more racists our society has, and the more they hate the united states, the more ppl vote democrat.

as for your lie about mission statements, until reverend wright exploded the 12 precepts was on the about us page right above the 10 point vision. it was just scrubbed so it might not hurt obama as much.

[yavoon]

btw reverend wright did make another public appearance, at a catholic church whose priest is also a huge fan of louis farrakhan. it seems they have a whole club going on. so much for 30 second soundbites.

[Rohirrim]

The William (or Willie) Lynch Speech (or Letter) is a hoax text of modern origin which drew widespread attention when it circulated throughout the Internet during the 1990s. It purports to be an address given by William Lynch to an audience on the bank of the James River in Virginia in 1712 regarding control of slaves within the colony.[1][2][3] The speaker, William Lynch, is said to have been a slaveowner in the West Indies, summoned to Virginia in 1712; in part due to several slave revolts in the area prior to his visit, and his alleged reputation of being an authoritarian and strict slaveowner.[1][2][3] No provenance for the speech has ever been supplied, and the text contains numerous anachronisms ("self-refueling", for example, since the word "refueling" dates only to the early twentieth century, or "fool proof", a word not attested until the early twentieth century). For these reasons, along with others, historians such as William Jelani Cobb of Spelman College have revealed the Willie Lynch speech to be an internet hoax.[4]
Louis Farrakhan, in his open letter regarding the Millions More Movement, cites Willie Lynch's alleged scheme as an obstacle to unity among African Americans.[5]
In the 2007 movie The Great Debaters, Denzel Washington's character Melvin B. Tolson refers to the Willie Lynch speech as being the definition of the black slave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lynch_Speech

America's mission statement? Not hardly. America's mission statement is the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. btw, a "tenant" is somebody you who rents a room, a "tenet" is a principle of philosophy.

[footstepsfrom#27]

America's mission statement? Not hardly. America's mission statement is the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
The IRS analyzes the qualifying tax exempt status for non profit foundations based on whether or not they are spending money on things that directly relate to whether they are in their mission statement or not. In other words, they're interested in what these groups do, not just what they say they do.

Would you say that over the 234 years of the nation, we've put our money where our mouth was in 1776? At the time this was written, this stuff was more in line with our mission statement than any of the wonderful documents we produced.

[Rohirrim]

The IRS analyzes the qualifying tax exempt status for non profit foundations based on whether or not they are spending money on things that directly relate to whether they are in their mission statement or not. In other words, they're interested in what these groups do, not just what they say they do.

Would you say that over the 234 years of the nation, we've put our money where our mouth was in 1776? At the time this was written, this stuff was more in line with our mission statement than any of the wonderful documents we produced.

America is not a corporation whose mission statement is at the beck and call of the IRS. You did catch the part where the Willie Lynch document is a hoax, right? No, America has not lived up to our Declaration, but we had the courage to write it down and say, "This is what we aspire to." After all, it is a declaration, sort of like a statement of ideals. Did you catch the part of American history where thousands of Americans gave their lives to end slavery? The meaning of America can be bent all sorts of ways, to serve all sorts of purposes.

[BroncoBuff]

Gentlemen:

I greet you here on the bank of the James River in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and twelve. First, I shall thank you, the gentlemen of the Colony of Virginia, for bringing me here. I am here to help you solve some of your problems with slaves. Your invitation reached me on my modest plantation in the West Indies, where I have experimented with some of the newest and still the oldest methods for control of slaves.

Any "speech" that purports to begin with such obviously faux-expository scene-setters is definitely phony.

Kinda like the coin in the riddle that's dated "61 B.C." ... :~ohyah!:

[footstepsfrom#27]

America is not a corporation whose mission statement is at the beck and call of the IRS. You did catch the part where the Willie Lynch document is a hoax, right? No, America has not lived up to our Declaration, but we had the courage to write it down and say, "This is what we aspire to."
My response had nothing to do with the IRS. It had to do with putting your money where your mouth is. Your response above restates what I'm saying, namely that we've primarily over the course of our history talked a better game than we've walked. "Having the courage to write it down" is fine and dandy but I doubt it meant much to a black man in 1959.

America does ASPIRE to equality...as well we should...but only in the last 35-40 years have we done much about tryinig to ACHIEVE it, and most of the progress we've made was bought with the blood of people who forced us kicking and screaming in that direction. So let's not pat ourselves on the back as if we came up with this of our own free will.
After all, it is a declaration, sort of like a statement of ideals. Did you catch the part of American history where thousands of Americans gave their lives to end slavery? The meaning of America can be bent all sorts of ways, to serve all sorts of purposes.
Sure it can...as you did in the above statement. Do you think most union troops were fighting to end slavery? I doubt it. Blacks were nearly equally disrespected in the north just as they were in the south. The civil war was about slavery, but much more to the combatants....the battle to prevent the damage that succession would bring...the favor shown to industrialization over a society built on agriculture...states rights vs. federal control...a laudry list of things.

[loborugger]

[b]

- the board wouldnt let me quote all your post and mine...

Max, in spite of the fact that you are a Raider fan, you are a good poster. (Did I say that? It must be the great Chilean wine I am enjoying).

However, as a white dude, this is the way I see it.

Somehow, I bear the sins of those of those in the past. Somehow, I bear the sins of those who in the past enslaved people solely on color of skin - never mind that this speech was given almost 300 years ago.

The truth of matter is this.

It took a white majority to enslave a black minority. It took a white majority to actively seek and find Africans who were exporting their brothers. Thats a fact. It also took a white majority to free a black minority. And, it took a war and the wisdom of a white man - Lincoln - to do it. And most of the blood shed in the Civil War was white.

After the Civil War, the white majority of the south decided to enact Jim Crow laws on the black minority. However, it took a white majority nationwide to defeat the Jim Crow laws. And while some whites in the south were drawn into legal equality kicking and screaming, there were also whites who fought very hard (granted, they didnt fight as hard as the blacks) to end the Jim Crow laws. So, while it took a white majority to enact Jim Crow laws, it also took a white majority to end Jim Crow laws.

So the way I see it, a white majority has stood up not once, but twice, for the rights of a black minority.

Also, why is that as a white man, I bear all of the sins for slavery, lynchings, and Jim Crow, but I bear zero of the honor for the fact that my race also freed the slaves, ended the "normality" of lynchings, and put an end to Jim Crow laws? The British Navy - and after the Civil War, the US Navy - put an end to the slave trade, but my race gets no credit for that?

Never mind that my mother's side of the family came here after the Civil War to settle in South Dakota (I think I have said it here before, but my great, great, I dont know how many greats grandmother established the first whore house in the Black Hills) and my father's side of the family crossed the Oregon Trail in the 1840s - sans slaves.

This is my issue with "discussion" of race issues. There are a whole lot of hucksters (the "Revs" Jackson and Sharpton come to mind) that are the loudest voices when it comes to race and have a vested issue in keeping the race issue alive.

Additionally, I grew in northern New Mexico, at a time when hispanics were the dominate ethnic group. That has since changed, as every retired New Yorker and Californian has learned how to use a map. However, since white/hispanic, indian/hispanic and finally white/indian issues dont dominate the national headlines, there is, IMHO, much more peace amongst these groups than there is between whites/blacks. And why? Because there isnt a talking head making it an issue. So, I categorically disagree with Obama (and anyone else) who says there needs to be "discussion of race." And this is primarily cuz the trouble makers and agitators in each group seem to have the loudest voices.

IMHO, there is a minority on my side of the racial issue that thinks blacks - or any other group - are inferior, and there is a certain minority on the black side of the house that think that whites are inferior. Since we have created the atmosphere in this country that we have, it is incumbent on members of each race to discredit the racist in their group. That is the discussion I would like to see take place.

It would be nice if the press would examplify the numerous cases of white and black harmony (my children when I lived in a northern VA suburb would have been a great example), however that doesnt sell papers or air time. While well over 90% of whites and blacks get along in this nation, that doesnt make news. It only takes one boob - on either side - to make headlines. Afterall, imagine if Obama's minister preached peace amongst the races? I doubt anyone would even care.

The past is in the past and it cant be changed. It would be great if we could step forward into a future of racial harmony with the multi-ethnic (think of how many people there are here from every part of the world) American nation leading the way. We have led on some many issues, why cant we lead on this one, too. However, that wont be possible with members of any group embracing leaders who teach racial hatred. As for me, I will embrace any leader that doesnt give a crap about the color of ones skin.

[Swedish Extrovert]

if you say that obama's church is representative of t but I'm not giving specifically racist minorities political power over me.

So...... you are voting for Barack, then?

Oh and if you would have read the post you quoted me on, you'd see that I do in fact know of Louis Farrakhan influence on Wright.

[Jason in LA]

There's a difference between being "pro-black" and "anti-white". A person can be pro-black without being anti-white. A black person making a commitment to the black community doesn't mean that person is against white people.

Now, I'm totally against #11. I'm not following a guy just because he says he's a black leader.

[Spider]

Just like with the Hispanics comin here illegally ...... I dont hold it against them , been in few arguments here over this .......I never fault a man for trying to feed his family , and bettering himself . I know damn well if I was in Mexico with 6 kids , I would be doing whatever I could to gt here , to work ......

[loborugger]

There's a difference between being "pro-black" and "anti-white". A person can be pro-black without being anti-white. A black person making a commitment to the black community doesn't mean that person is against white people.

Now, I'm totally against #11. I'm not following a guy just because he says he's a black leader.

I dont know about that...

I am not black, so I cant speak about being "pro-black" without being "anti-white", but I know it would be very difficult to be "pro-white" without being "anti-black" or any other ethnicity represented in the USA. IMHO, you are either pro-humanity, or you are pro-minority. Cant serve two masters.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I dont know about that...

I am not black, so I cant speak about being "pro-black" without being "anti-white", but I know it would be very difficult to be "pro-white" without being "anti-black" or any other ethnicity represented in the USA. IMHO, you are either pro-humanity, or you are pro-minority. Cant serve two masters.
Like minorities aren't part of humanity?

[Rohirrim]

My response had nothing to do with the IRS. It had to do with putting your money where your mouth is. Your response above restates what I'm saying, namely that we've primarily over the course of our history talked a better game than we've walked. "Having the courage to write it down" is fine and dandy but I doubt it meant much to a black man in 1959.

America does ASPIRE to equality...as well we should...but only in the last 35-40 years have we done much about tryinig to ACHIEVE it, and most of the progress we've made was bought with the blood of people who forced us kicking and screaming in that direction. So let's not pat ourselves on the back as if we came up with this of our own free will.

Sure it can...as you did in the above statement. Do you think most union troops were fighting to end slavery? I doubt it. Blacks were nearly equally disrespected in the north just as they were in the south. The civil war was about slavery, but much more to the combatants....the battle to prevent the damage that succession would bring...the favor shown to industrialization over a society built on agriculture...states rights vs. federal control...a laudry list of things.

Your response had nothing to do with the IRS? Maybe you should reread it.

You don't think those words meant much to a black man in 1959? It meant enough to ML King that he built much of his "I have a dream" speech around it. Your view of the struggle for equality is myopic and politicized by the limited race politics in America today. The struggle has been going on for hundreds of years. Long before America was born. I don't know why anybody would think it pertains only to the black man. Frederick Douglass, or Dubois or MLK didn't believe that, certainly, given that they borrowed the language and the ideals of many who came long before them, including Romans and Greeks (just as our Founding Fathers did), to formulate and argue their own ideas of human freedom.

Not only was there a huge anti-slavery movement in the North (you've heard of John Brown?) led by voices like Emerson and Thoreau, but as the war progressed, Union soldiers wrote letters home describing slavery as they experienced it in the South and the movement grew even stronger. In northern churches abolition was a moral force. The underground railroad was first born as an act of civil disobedience. By its end, the Civil War was about nothing else but slavery, as Lincoln himself was forced to understand.

I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of your own country. It's a shame that the movement to celebrate diversity in this country has been twisted now to encourage a celebration of our separateness as races over the ideal of our cohesion as one human family involved in a struggle for the rights of man. In order to get to this sad crossroads, we have had to toss out the white skinned martyrs to this cause as unworthy, so that we can have a new, re-educated version where only the black man has been the participant in the struggle. Yes. The white man is the oppressor. All of us. All the time. Always. Right.

[loborugger]

Like minorities aren't part of humanity?

We are all human, bro. You are either race neutral or you arent. Pick your side.

[Rohirrim]

Here are some pics of the MLK led march from Selma to Montgomery.
http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/1965_03b.jpg
Why do we no longer value the bravery of those "white" people who marched? Why is their participation belittled? Why are they cast aside when we recall that history? Answer that question and you get a good snapshot of race politics in America today. The politics of Reverend Wright.

[BroncoBuff]

Does Wright really, REALLY believe the government started AIDS to hurt the black community? That's the dumbest thing I've heard attributed to him. Other than that, I agree with the majority of what I've heard him say (especialy the long versions Roh posted). He advocates above all self-examination and honesty in self-appraisal for individuals, groups, the nation. I heartily embrace that philosophy .... nothing's worse than some dumb bastard who keeps insisting he's correct despite all mountain of evidence to the contrary. W-cough! W-cough! W-cough-AGS!

And loborugger, you're wrong ... you definitely CAN be pro-black without being anti-white. Think about that more ... use different examples and you'll see that's kinda silly. If we believe that, it's reduced to a zero-sum game. Everything anti-white is pro-black, everything pro-white is anti-black. No way ... :nono:

[loborugger]

So, Buff, in that case are you pro-white? Where exactly do you stand?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Your response had nothing to do with the IRS? Maybe you should reread it.
I don't need to read what I wrote to know what I said. I was using an analogy...comparing the fact that the US government expects businesses to DO the same thing they SAY THEY DO...to the state of the nation over the course of our history with the ideas of freedom and equality setting our actions in context. The fact that the IRS is in this discussion is incidental.
You don't think those words meant much to a black man in 1959? It meant enough to ML King that he built much of his "I have a dream" speech around it.
Excuse me...you don't get to use ML King as an example of a black guy who was enamored with the words of our forefathers as something that benefitted him. First of all, King HAD TO DIE in order for these words to mean anything, and second; King spent his life fighting for the right to be included in the benefits brought by these words. In point of fact though...I was referencing the view of a guy swinging from a rope with an angry lynch mob beneath him...THAT guy didn't get much out of our Declaration of Independence or the Bill of Rights did he now?
Your view of the struggle for equality is myopic and politicized by the limited race politics in America today.
You have no idea what my view of this struggle is based on.
Not only was there a huge anti-slavery movement in the North (you've heard of John Brown?) led by voices like Emerson and Thoreau, but as the war progressed, Union soldiers wrote letters home describing slavery as they experienced it in the South and the movement grew even stronger. In northern churches abolition was a moral force. The underground railroad was first born as an act of civil disobedience. By its end, the Civil War was about nothing else but slavery, as Lincoln himself was forced to understand.
I didn't say there were not people in the north who abhored slavery. I said it was not the only issue the war was fought over, and it wasn't. Blacks were still mistreated in the north despite the presense of people who fought against slavery there.
I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of your own country.
I don't have a low opinion of this country. I have a low opinion of people who don't want to live up to the very ideals you're talking about...and plenty of them are still around.
It's a shame that the movement to celebrate diversity in this country has been twisted now to encourage a celebration of our separateness as races over the ideal of our cohesion as one human family involved in a struggle for the rights of man.
Just curious...what have you been struggling for in this "rights of man" thing you're talking about? I don't see to many white people struggling to help their fellow man out in this struggle when he happens to be black. I'm just calling a spade a spade dude...
In order to get to this sad crossroads, we have had to toss out the white skinned martyrs to this cause as unworthy, so that we can have a new, re-educated version where only the black man has been the participant in the struggle. Yes. The white man is the oppressor. All of us. All the time. Always. Right.
Yeah...whatever drama queen. The number of "white skinned martyrs" as you call them...are few and far between...sad but true. To equate the occasional participation by whites in the struggle for civil rights with what black Americans have gone through for centuries in this country is one of the more idiotic things I've heard on this board. Do they exist? Yeah...usually people call them names like "socialist".

[Rohirrim]

This is why I don't argue with you. When you're caught out, you turn to this specious hair splitting.

[footstepsfrom#27]

This is why I don't argue with you. When you're caught out, you turn to this specious hair splitting.
Hilarious!

[yavoon]

I think this thread has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt through its responses that the worldview espoused by minority racism relies heavily and continuously on anti-americanism to be viable ideologically.

[cutthemdown]

Well there are two things to address here. First, there are white people in the congregation and I’m sure that the church welcomes all members of any race. Predominantly black churches have been doing this for my entire memory. Historically, African-Americans have always been more inclusive because of the discrimination that we have encountered. Not all of us are but, in general it is easier for a white person to be accepted in our community than it is for a black person to be accepted in the white community.

It is true that the tenants don’t speak for white people. To put it bluntly the tenants are meant to heal the broken psyche of African-Americans. Our communities, spending habits and the abandonment of the educational opportunities are not issues that have historically destroyed white communities.



Excuse me for chopping up your response, but it is necessary in this case. This statement goes to the core of the entire misunderstanding and I hope that I can explain why you are incorrect. The tenants are not divisive neither are the anecdotes and lofty accusations.

Back to the tenants… They are actually inclusive. In order for African Americans to be a part of Society, we must have the mentality and believe that we are equal to everyone in society. This means we must be self reliant, we must strive to be the best in all areas. To gain equal footing I was told that I had to be educated but, education isn’t enough… I was told that I had to be better in order to gain equal status! I know that sounds terrible. However if you listen, it means we can never settle for 100 percent if we want to be equal or if we want full acceptance in American society; We have to be 150 percent to gain equal status. The best example of this is Barack Obama vs George W Bush. Bush is allowed to be a “C” student and run for president. Bush could be a business failure and become president. Obama had to be an “A” student with an accumulation of accomplishments to be taken seriously.
Finally, African Americans have to accept responsibility for our own destiny. We cannot rely on anyone bailing us out of our situation we have to make our own way. This is what the tenants are about.


It Sounds like there is a level of underlying fear of backlash in your statement. Let me correct the fallacy. Black People will not be running the country if Obama wins. Barack Obama will be running the country. Obama is Half White! Golf didn’t go to hell because Tiger Woods is the best did it? The other philosophical problem that I have is the idea that anyone is serious enough to think that because Obama or any intelligent Black person may not be qualified because of being… Black. Intelligence is the main concern not skin tone or perceived cultural obstacles.



Again, for the black community the tenants are needed. Nevertheless, let me dispel another fallacy. The political, Spiritual and Cultural ideologies are all separated. The tenants are not preached about in regular sermons. They might be incorporated through scripture, but they are not the topic of conversation during church. The tenants are put into action through community projects not sermons. I think the biggest problem is the idea that African-Americans including Obama follow Pastors teachings implicitly. We are not lemmings who follow blindly.

Black Agenda… What exactly is that? Our Agenda is your agenda with a strong dose of equality incorporated. Should that be feared?

Wow thanks for such an in depth response it did help me see this from another point of view. I'm not saying I think the black churches developed those tenets because they wanted to be racists agianst whites. That would be ridiculous. I understand now more after reading your post it was to try and help lift blacks, to tell them you are important, you can be a good provider for your family etc etc. I just think at some point white people need to feel like all the hard work we have done is something black people appreciate.

Sometimes white people feel we are still being blamed for racism when in fact we are no more racist then any other group. In fact I would say white people have done as much, sacrificed as much to try and right the wrongs of slavery and oppression.

Maybe it's time for those churches to rewrite the tenets to reflect that things have changed for the better. Maybe the black community could give a few more accolades to white people for all the sacrifices we have made to try and make it better.

I know I have learned a lot just be reading the posts of the African Americans on this site. I know I said some things that came off racist in the past. I think I have learned a lot and hope that I don't say things that came off as racist anymore. I do have prejudices but I know in my heart I would do the right by a white person, just like I would a black person.

I have contact with a lot of black people because I play music, live in a diverse city with lots of all races and have black friends. I will say the black friends I have, I have through music, and that's the only reason we ever hooked up, but you only need one thing in common to have a connection.

That's my feeling on the whole matter. Let's look for things we have in common, build on them, and not divide anymore.

Remember people Obama is white/black mix. He is both races and hopefully if he wins his policies will reflect that. I really don't see Obama having a black agenda. To me it sounds like a liberal agenda and that can put forth by any race.

[Odysseus]

I think this thread has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt through its responses that the worldview espoused by minority racism relies heavily and continuously on anti-americanism to be viable ideologically.

You should ask one question. What percentage of American soldiers are Minorities? Perhaps lumping all minorities together is the depth of racism.

[footstepsfrom#27]

You should ask one question. What percentage of American soldiers are Minorities? Perhaps lumping all minorities together is the depth of racism.
Their numbers are declining somewhat, but before Bush took office they represented about 25%...twice their numerical representation in the general population.

[Odysseus]

Here are some pics of the MLK led march from Selma to Montgomery.
http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/1965_03b.jpg
Why do we no longer value the bravery of those "white" people who marched? Why is their participation belittled? Why are they cast aside when we recall that history? Answer that question and you get a good snapshot of race politics in America today. The politics of Reverend Wright.

1. It's odd you cannot name any of these white people that you so revere. It's clear that many on this board don't know the difference between indignation and self pity. Our countries moral compass is broke and we have become given to lies, stealing, and self delusion. WE are all guilty of whatever BUSHCO created because we were there and we did not stop it. Whether we own his idiocy or not it our process that created him and THAT is the point most of here do not want to hear.

2. I don't know of any white people that qualify as First Americans yet they are at every Native celebration you can name. Maybe we should celebrate these white people as well. Oh wait. Some of those are charlatans and don't know the difference between a sweat lodge and a steam bath.

3. Why do you lump all white people together? There isn't a white person in American that is really from here. We ALL come from somewhere else so you are lumping French, Poles, Germans, Irish, Italian and anybody with enough European blood that can pass? Doesn't that betray your real self interest?

4. Since when has white history not been taught in schools? The only reason black history was invented was to prove that black people existed in history in the first place. There are a wide list of cultures that contribute to the strength of America. Any B school will tell you that diversity is one of the strengths of this nation and it's what has made us innovators. The fact that several posters don't get this is amazing to me. Racism doesn't have to be limited to a word or action. It can also be a complete ignorance or lack of understanding. Don't hide in the back of the classroom on this one.

5. I love Irish History. The Irish have contributed to many major cultures and yet they remain like an undiscovered secret. White history is racism incarnate. Irish history is specific. It has a purpose and a definition. It's something that can be added to a curriculum. "Pro white" is exactly what those "white people" marched against.

[Odysseus]

I dont know about that...

I am not black, so I cant speak about being "pro-black" without being "anti-white", but I know it would be very difficult to be "pro-white" without being "anti-black" or any other ethnicity represented in the USA. IMHO, you are either pro-humanity, or you are pro-minority. Cant serve two masters.

Racism at is it's root is tied to ignorance, stupidity, and self justification. Unless it's pro community than it truly does miss the mark. Show me a leader who incites hatred that has created anything? Pro hate leaders destroy and create waves of destruction because when they are gone what they created dies with them.

Being rich is an anti social thing. There is nothing social about money. It's a very me oriented medium and "having mine" is rooted deeply in an insecurity of NOT having. It's an easy philosophy to peddle as you can see from Gangster rap. It's hard to be about community if you are willing to kill others to keep yours. Is that pro black or pro white? It's a pro green philosophy if you want to know the truth about it.

[Odysseus]

http://www.bartcop.com/spewing-trio.gif

Any of you think you know anything about Rev. Wright is smoking crack.

[Odysseus]

Dominant culture? That's ridiculous. There is no dominant culture in this country. It's a racist church. There is no excuse for it.

You have to be kidding me.

1. I am not going to quote exact numbers because that is what you are supposed to do before your post but you seriously need to reconsider this.

2. There isn't a person on this board who knows Rev. Wright or his church. There isn't a person on here who hasn't heard of Falwell or some of the Religious Turds on the right. Wright has done more good than harm and the fact the press would try to summarize this man with zero knowledge of context is short sighted and just plain dumb.

3. I agree. There is no excuse. Bring jobs into the urban areas of this country instead of exporting them and then you'll have a new generation of youth ready to stand right at your side.

[Rohirrim]

1. It's odd you cannot name any of these white people that you so revere. It's clear that many on this board don't know the difference between indignation and self pity. Our countries moral compass is broke and we have become given to lies, stealing, and self delusion. WE are all guilty of whatever BUSHCO created because we were there and we did not stop it. Whether we own his idiocy or not it our process that created him and THAT is the point most of here do not want to hear.

2. I don't know of any white people that qualify as First Americans yet they are at every Native celebration you can name. Maybe we should celebrate these white people as well. Oh wait. Some of those are charlatans and don't know the difference between a sweat lodge and a steam bath.

3. Why do you lump all white people together? There isn't a white person in American that is really from here. We ALL come from somewhere else so you are lumping French, Poles, Germans, Irish, Italian and anybody with enough European blood that can pass? Doesn't that betray your real self interest?

4. Since when has white history not been taught in schools? The only reason black history was invented was to prove that black people existed in history in the first place. There are a wide list of cultures that contribute to the strength of America. Any B school will tell you that diversity is one of the strengths of this nation and it's what has made us innovators. The fact that several posters don't get this is amazing to me. Racism doesn't have to be limited to a word or action. It can also be a complete ignorance or lack of understanding. Don't hide in the back of the classroom on this one.

5. I love Irish History. The Irish have contributed to many major cultures and yet they remain like an undiscovered secret. White history is racism incarnate. Irish history is specific. It has a purpose and a definition. It's something that can be added to a curriculum. "Pro white" is exactly what those "white people" marched against.

I can't really answer this ridiculous tangent as I don't know what it's referring to. I'm posting this stuff to answer the Reverend Wright's (and some other people's) assertions that "All" white people are this or that. What I'm trying to do is point out the ridiculousness of the assertion. Judging by most of your post, you agree. The rest, ???

[Swedish Extrovert]

I'm pro-white. It doesn't mean I'm for white advancement. I'm pro-black and FOR black advancement, because they are a poor, oppressed minority.

In all fairness, I am the one in town here pushing for recognization of a European history month....

I can't cut and paste the article, because I'm waiting in a long line on mu iphone right now, but if you go to slate.com there is an excellent article today about Barack and race.

(while you're there, read Christopher Hitchens typical unrelenting critique on Hillarity Clinton)

[yavoon]

You should ask one question. What percentage of American soldiers are Minorities? Perhaps lumping all minorities together is the depth of racism.

I didn't "lump them together" I addressed the ideology used to propagate minority racism like black liberation theology and its obvious and extensive need to be anti-american.

[yavoon]

You have to be kidding me.

1. I am not going to quote exact numbers because that is what you are supposed to do before your post but you seriously need to reconsider this.

2. There isn't a person on this board who knows Rev. Wright or his church. There isn't a person on here who hasn't heard of Falwell or some of the Religious Turds on the right. Wright has done more good than harm and the fact the press would try to summarize this man with zero knowledge of context is short sighted and just plain dumb.

3. I agree. There is no excuse. Bring jobs into the urban areas of this country instead of exporting them and then you'll have a new generation of youth ready to stand right at your side.

I'm pretty sure a racist is capable of doing "more good than harm" especially when working for the benefit of his selected ethnicity.

and don't forget reverend wright thinks louis farrakhan is awesome too and if you think farrakhan isn't a racist then the word has no meaning.

[yavoon]

Racism at is it's root is tied to ignorance, stupidity, and self justification. Unless it's pro community than it truly does miss the mark. Show me a leader who incites hatred that has created anything? Pro hate leaders destroy and create waves of destruction because when they are gone what they created dies with them.

Being rich is an anti social thing. There is nothing social about money. It's a very me oriented medium and "having mine" is rooted deeply in an insecurity of NOT having. It's an easy philosophy to peddle as you can see from Gangster rap. It's hard to be about community if you are willing to kill others to keep yours. Is that pro black or pro white? It's a pro green philosophy if you want to know the truth about it.

thats just incredibly ignorant. racists permeate all of history. "they didn't create anything." lol. I guess its one of those feel good statements that has absolutely no meaning nor any intelligent intent behind it. how about the romans sparky?

[BroncoBuff]

Sometimes you have to think "outside the box," and I'll admit that one of the best things about being a healthy, well-educated white midwestern Christian male in America is that you have nothing to fear, no suspicions to haunt you and hamper your life experience. When something goes wrong in my life, I almost never have any reason to fear or suspect anything other than the overt circumstances .... and that is yet another reason guys like me are incredibly lucky.


Racism is really more of a GENERATIONAL thing. Just as I mentioned that growing up in the 70s/80s I never personally saw anybody suggest, "plan" or carry out any racist behavior .... I also know absolutely that racist occurrences happened ALL THE TIME in the 50s and 60s. Rev. Wright himself and his older parishioners SAW these things, they LIVED with this racism, so their paranoia that it's still lurking out there behind every corner is understandable. But the good news is that such racism is very rare now, and more and more rare with each passing year. I'll bet the younger members of Wright's church are the least aroused by his message, and some are probably confused by it because they don't see these things in their lives.

If we're lucky ... in seven months we'll elect a black president, and hopefully kids that grow up the naughts and teens will never see or experience any racism of any kind ... and within 20 or 30 years it will be like black and white TVs. Anachronistic museum-like fare .... there'll be nobody left who saw it in person.

[BroncoBuff]

The biggest problem with racism ... and black's perceptions of racism is not so complicated really: The reality is that real racism against Blacks is VERY rare in America any more, at least in the Western U.S. I'm white and I grew up in the 70s, college in the 80s, etc ... so I've been around quite awhile and I've lived in lots of places, all over the West. But I've never ever once heard a white person mention or discuss with me any kind of "plan" or intent to discriminate against or take any racist action of any kind toward any black person or group of blacks. Never. I have heard whites and even Latinos speak negatively of Blacks in general on some particular topic ... but even more often I've heard these same groups speak POSITIVELY of Blacks on some other topic. Ironically, the negative topic I've most often heard non-Blacks attribute to Blacks is that they complain too much that they're discriminated against!

But the reason the Rev. Wright church problem is so insidious, is that once any group becomes suspicious that "everybody else" is secretly discriminating against them - especially when there's historic proof of egregious discrimination / "crimes against humanity" discrimination against them - they cannot help but suspect this same discrimination is hiding behind and causing every shortcoming in their life. NOT believing this smacks of "allowing" it to happen - playing a sucker to "whitey." And Reverend Wright encourages this paranoia by feeding - even encouraging the Black community's paranoia that "racism" lurks behind everything that goes wrong in their lives: a traffic ticket, a layoff, a friend's HIV, not getting that job, alcohol and drug abuse, home foreclosure, crack epidemic, poverty. NOT being suspicious/paranoid is EXACTLY WHAT THE BASTARDS WANT! So even though there's really very little racism against Blacks left, the Black community has overwhelmingly good reason to suspect there is based on history ... and letting their guard down is a sucker's move.



One final point: No doubt about it, Blacks are FAR MORE prejudiced against Whites than vice versa. Out in the open, ten ways to Sunday (I hope nobody disagrees with this). I've had Black people discriminate right to my face and think nothing of it. The difference is that Whites have no history of systematic repression that would cause these experiences to stoke any paranoia. And THAT'S the latter-day most lasting wound of slavery/Jim Crow: That because of the historic record of egregious crimes against their race, Blacks cannot help but be suspicious/paranoid that racism is at the core of everything that goes wrong in their lives / families / communities.

What a terrible burden ...

[Odysseus]

thats just incredibly ignorant. racists permeate all of history. "they didn't create anything." lol. I guess its one of those feel good statements that has absolutely no meaning nor any intelligent intent behind it. how about the romans sparky?

Let's assume you are factually correct. That would then lead us back to the "Willie Lynch Letters". That clever hoax based on factual racist history, which as you have indicated, is a rich part of the American tapestry. Good point. You are correct. Those letters point to some value information.

Additionally that would bring into context the whole reason behind Farrakhan in the first place as a response to years of murder, rape, torture, family destruction and lynching. There are plenty of pictures available if you are curious of more factual information. Perhaps Emmitt Till was a Hoax?

Rap Music is considered black music yet the majority of the people purchasing that crap are white. Let's see. In the Yavoon context of racism as a ever present reality that would mean that Rap music is defined largely by the culture that supports it. Rap artists understand capitalism and are "big pimping" and "spending cheese". You should celebrate this digression in your rampage for consistency.

I think you make a good point. There hasn't been a civilization in generations that has NOT been racist at the foundation. I guess this is why capitalism (Not America as is so generically asserted) gets attacked by our modern poor in tirades that are largely otherwise decent people just complaining to themselves. You would worry about what a small percentage of the 12% of this nation would concern themselves with? Why? They have NO power. They have NO money.

Let me get this straight. You would be offended by people you don't know on streets you don't walk and places you don't go about ideas they have no influence on making happen? You don't know anything about Reverend Wright or anyone in those neighborhoods or situations.

My sincerest hope is that these types of discussions become unnecessary but as you have so clearly stated history will repeat itself.

[Bronco Jamus]

You have to be kidding me.

1. I am not going to quote exact numbers because that is what you are supposed to do before your post but you seriously need to reconsider this.

2. There isn't a person on this board who knows Rev. Wright or his church. There isn't a person on here who hasn't heard of Falwell or some of the Religious Turds on the right. Wright has done more good than harm and the fact the press would try to summarize this man with zero knowledge of context is short sighted and just plain dumb.

3. I agree. There is no excuse. Bring jobs into the urban areas of this country instead of exporting them and then you'll have a new generation of youth ready to stand right at your side.


It's an honest statement. If you want to break things down by culture, you cannot look at it as black or white. There is English, Irish, Italian, French, African, Indian, Latino, Slavic, Arabic, Asian, Nordic, Greek, and so on. Then these cultures break down further into subsets. Remember the old melting pot? The idea that there is one dominant culture is a false one. We come together as Americans, as soon as Wright understands that the better off he'll be. He only sees the world in black or white forgetting the mass amount of different races in this country. Do you know why Rev Wright breaks things down into a dominant culture, because he's a racist. Instead of caring about all Americans he only cares about his race.

[Odysseus]

It's an honest statement. If you want to break things down by culture, you cannot look at it as black or white. There is English, Irish, Italian, French, African, Indian, Latino, Slavic, Arabic, Asian, Nordic, Greek, and so on. Then these cultures break down further into subsets. Remember the old melting pot? The idea that there is one dominant culture is a false one. We come together as Americans, as soon as Wright understands that the better off he'll be. He only sees the world in black or white forgetting the mass amount of different races in this country. Do you know why Rev Wright breaks things down into a dominant culture, because he's a racist. Instead of caring about all Americans he only cares about his race.

The problem with racism is that the conversation is shifting sand. In order to stay on point you have to decide what part of this are you really talking about? Are you talking about economics, history, American history, military history, current events or the greater good and community?

All flag waving aside we almost never talk about community or the real greater good. It's always the lowest common denominator...and lately it seems to be "I got mine" and "what about me" is our value de jour.

If you are focused on truth don't lie and say that one culture is not dominant. The Eskimo culture is not dominant in Colorado. Ask around. Melting pot theory believes that everything melted equally and that nothing got burned or stuck to the bottom or boiled over.

In the end after all the Utopian ideals fail it will come down to which way the pendulum is swinging at that time. Truth apparently is power or is power truth? I keep getting those two mixed up.

[yavoon]

Let's assume you are factually correct. That would then lead us back to the "Willie Lynch Letters". That clever hoax based on factual racist history, which as you have indicated, is a rich part of the American tapestry. Good point. You are correct. Those letters point to some value information.

Additionally that would bring into context the whole reason behind Farrakhan in the first place as a response to years of murder, rape, torture, family destruction and lynching. There are plenty of pictures available if you are curious of more factual information. Perhaps Emmitt Till was a Hoax?

Rap Music is considered black music yet the majority of the people purchasing that crap are white. Let's see. In the Yavoon context of racism as a ever present reality that would mean that Rap music is defined largely by the culture that supports it. Rap artists understand capitalism and are "big pimping" and "spending cheese". You should celebrate this digression in your rampage for consistency.

I think you make a good point. There hasn't been a civilization in generations that has NOT been racist at the foundation. I guess this is why capitalism (Not America as is so generically asserted) gets attacked by our modern poor in tirades that are largely otherwise decent people just complaining to themselves. You would worry about what a small percentage of the 12% of this nation would concern themselves with? Why? They have NO power. They have NO money.

Let me get this straight. You would be offended by people you don't know on streets you don't walk and places you don't go about ideas they have no influence on making happen? You don't know anything about Reverend Wright or anyone in those neighborhoods or situations.

My sincerest hope is that these types of discussions become unnecessary but as you have so clearly stated history will repeat itself.

that is some seriously nonsensical ****. but thanks for admitting that you are factually retarded.

and yes racist anti-american bigots do offend me. I know its a petty thing, but what is one to do?

[Spider]

that is some seriously nonsensical ****. but thanks for admitting that you are factually retarded.

and yes racist anti-american bigots do offend me. I know its a petty thing, but what is one to do?
stop posting here ........ find a real woman and date ....tell mom you are sick of the basement and you are ready to venture out in the real world to earn your own way ..... jack off more ..... jack off less ... Admit you are a ****ing retard and seek help ..... therapy ........medication ...... the list goes on and on

[Odysseus]

that is some seriously nonsensical ****. but thanks for admitting that you are factually retarded.

and yes racist anti-american bigots do offend me. I know its a petty thing, but what is one to do?

I have found underneath most bigots a stain of fear and self loathing. It takes a lot of strength to stay ignorant and afraid. It takes time for any healing to take place. It takes patience.

The inability to listen is a common cowardice mistaken for courage. Denying something exists is a critical part of creating a lie. Lying about something you don't understand is where most ignorance begins.

You and Reverend Wright share a common bond. You are both Americans searching for power and influence when indeed you have none. Perhaps you are offended in your common bond of ignorance and powerlessness. Perhaps you realize that your marginal lack of common sense is very similar to his.

I don't know Yavoon. You have to enlighten me on this subject. Apparently you are vastly more experienced in bigotry than I realized.

[Spider]

I have found underneath most bigots a stain of fear and self loathing. It takes a lot of strength to stay ignorant and afraid. It takes time for any healing to take place. It takes patience.

The inability to listen is a common cowardice mistaken for courage. Denying something exists is a critical part of creating a lie. Lying about something you don't understand is where most ignorance begins.

You and Reverend Wright share a common bond. You are both Americans searching for power and influence when indeed you have none. Perhaps you are offended in your common bond of ignorance and powerlessness. Perhaps you realize that your marginal lack of common sense is very similar to his.

I don't know Yavoon. You have to enlighten me on this subject. Apparently you are vastly more experienced in bigotry than I realized.

see we let blacks get some edumacation and they get all uppity and stuff .. Yavbitch is white , so naturally he knows more about what it is like to be black and the trials that the black man and woman face in America ..Whitey knows best

[Spider]

well it is real simple , people are turning this into a mountain , when they dont have to , this includes both sides .... Real simple rule , Dont Judge a man or woman until you have walked a mile in their shoes .......
are there bad Blacks ? of course , just like there is white trash .....Bad Chicanos etc ....
what Jessie Jackson , Al Sharpton , David Duke all use is the black kid with his hat on sideways , Pants so baggy half his ass is showing , talking like he is rapping , he goes in applies for a job gets rejected ( and who can blame an employer ? ) then these guys use this as a case of Racism .... when it is a clear cut case of stupidism ( made up word ;D )
quotas ,affirmative action , sadly are still needed in a few cases , while things are getting better , we still have along ways to go .....
My point is alot of racism is brought onto ones self .... so to the black Kid I say , turn your hat around , pull your pants up , talk like you have an education , to the white trash I say , quit ****ing your sister and breeding ...go outside of the family , find a woman or a man , start a family .. No matter what color you are , raise your kids with morals , work ethic .....

[yavoon]

I have found underneath most bigots a stain of fear and self loathing. It takes a lot of strength to stay ignorant and afraid. It takes time for any healing to take place. It takes patience.

The inability to listen is a common cowardice mistaken for courage. Denying something exists is a critical part of creating a lie. Lying about something you don't understand is where most ignorance begins.

You and Reverend Wright share a common bond. You are both Americans searching for power and influence when indeed you have none. Perhaps you are offended in your common bond of ignorance and powerlessness. Perhaps you realize that your marginal lack of common sense is very similar to his.

I don't know Yavoon. You have to enlighten me on this subject. Apparently you are vastly more experienced in bigotry than I realized.

not once in this entire thread have I denied minority racism exists. and how am I "searching for power and influence?" this half-baked pop psychology does not an argument make. I think you're just out of ammunition. the connection between minority racism and anti-americanism has been made excessively clear in this thread.

so lets recap, you say things horrendously factually ignorant. then follow it up with mealy mouthed pop psychology. good job.

[Odysseus]

not once in this entire thread have I denied minority racism exists. and how am I "searching for power and influence?" this half-baked pop psychology does not an argument make. I think you're just out of ammunition. the connection between minority racism and anti-americanism has been made excessively clear in this thread.

so lets recap, you say things horrendously factually ignorant. then follow it up with mealy mouthed pop psychology. good job.

I guess at this point I am supposed to insult you and we are supposed to get into a flame war but it's not worth my time. Find someone else to talk you down or insult you.

My hope was that a gap could be bridged but you've made your choice.

Remember when I stated "shifting sands"?

Remember when I stated The inability to listen is a common cowardice mistaken for courage. Denying something exists is a critical part of creating a lie. Lying about something you don't understand is where most ignorance begins.

I have said what I intended to say.

[yavoon]

I guess at this point I am supposed to insult you and we are supposed to get into a flame war but it's not worth my time. Find someone else to talk you down or insult you.

My hope was that a gap could be bridged but you've made your choice.

Remember when I stated "shifting sands"?

Remember when I stated The inability to listen is a common cowardice mistaken for courage. Denying something exists is a critical part of creating a lie. Lying about something you don't understand is where most ignorance begins.

I have said what I intended to say.

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the White Community
3. Commitment to the White Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the White Work Ethic
7. Commitment to self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the White Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting White Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the White Value System.

maybe this is the america you want. this happens to not be the america I want. we can all "understand" each other across big fences of hateful forceful racism...oh wait not racism. "racial advocacy" that sounds so much better.

[Maximus]

- the board wouldnt let me quote all your post and mine...

Max, in spite of the fact that you are a Raider fan, you are a good poster. (Did I say that? It must be the great Chilean wine I am enjoying).

However, as a white dude, this is the way I see it.

Somehow, I bear the sins of those of those in the past. Somehow, I bear the sins of those who in the past enslaved people solely on color of skin - never mind that this speech was given almost 300 years ago.
Personally, I don’t blame anyone outside of the generations for the Racism that occurred 300 years ago. I can say that there are African-Americans who blame all White people for everything that is wrong or that happens in our communities. However, most of the black people that I associate with do not judge entire groups based on past events. In general, we get pissed about individual instances of perceived racism or prejudice. Trust me every instance of prejudice is discussed! I can tell you in most cases, after the anger subsides, the blanket of blame disappears and the individual blame takes over. We know right from wrong and we share most of the same values. The people who get the blame for prejudice and bigotry during our time are people like Yavoon, Bronco Jamus, Shakenbake, Rohirrim and Jason Whitlock.

The truth of matter is this.

It took a white majority to enslave a black minority. It took a white majority to actively seek and find Africans who were exporting their brothers. Thats a fact. It also took a white majority to free a black minority. And, it took a war and the wisdom of a white man - Lincoln - to do it. And most of the blood shed in the Civil War was white.
The only thing that I’m going to disagree with is your use of majority and minority. The elite class was a minority. The elite class made the push for slavery. It was in their economic interest to have cheap labor. This isn’t too different from Americas current exploitation of poor countries willingness to provide cheap labor to produce our goods. So, it was a minority of people who caused slavery and it took a majority to break slavery.

After the Civil War, the white majority of the south decided to enact Jim Crow laws on the black minority. However, it took a white majority nationwide to defeat the Jim Crow laws. And while some whites in the south were drawn into legal equality kicking and screaming, there were also whites who fought very hard (granted, they didnt fight as hard as the blacks) to end the Jim Crow laws. So, while it took a white majority to enact Jim Crow laws, it also took a white majority to end Jim Crow laws.

I agree entirely with this after the civil war there was a backlash that fueled hatred for black people. So, the majority did allow Jim Crow laws to take effect and it took a majority to end Jim Crow.

So the way I see it, a white majority has stood up not once, but twice, for the rights of a black minority.

Also, why is that as a white man, I bear all of the sins for slavery, lynchings, and Jim Crow, but I bear zero of the honor for the fact that my race also freed the slaves, ended the "normality" of lynchings, and put an end to Jim Crow laws?

Not true… Again, Our Generation was not responsible for Slavery, Lynching’s and Jim Crow… even though Lynching’s still occurred while I was a child and Jim Crow remains entrenched in the hearts of many right now ( Forsythe County, GA ). Here’s what people forget. African-Americans have given credit the deaths of Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner hasn’t been forgotten. We know that they died for our cause just like many others. After time elapses, the rhetoric outshines the reality. Here’s where I think the problem exists. The idea of saying thank you for something that is rightfully yours from birth can be viewed as demeaning. It’s almost like saying… Thank you for allowing me to be treated like a human being. Now that you’ve helped me, I’m not an alien anymore. Personally, I think it would take dignity out of the situation. White people stood up because it was the right thing to do… not for the idea of getting a thank you…

This is my issue with "discussion" of race issues. There are a whole lot of hucksters (the "Revs" Jackson and Sharpton come to mind) that are the loudest voices when it comes to race and have a vested issue in keeping the race issue alive.

QFT Both have their drawbacks and sometimes they are correct. However, they are starting to lose touch with a lot of the concerns of the Black community.

Additionally, I grew in northern New Mexico, at a time when hispanics were the dominate ethnic group. That has since changed, as every retired New Yorker and Californian has learned how to use a map. However, since white/hispanic, indian/hispanic and finally white/indian issues dont dominate the national headlines, there is, IMHO, much more peace amongst these groups than there is between whites/blacks. And why? Because there isnt a talking head making it an issue. So, [b]I categorically disagree with Obama (and anyone else) who says there needs to be "discussion of race." And this is primarily cuz the trouble makers and agitators in each group seem to have the loudest voices.

I disagree with the bolded part of this statement. Here’s why…
Cutthemdown and many others on OM have had numerous heated debates about things concerning race and racism. In the past I considered him a racist and I called him one. However, since those discussions I recognized the fallacy in my calling him or anyone else a racist. Because In our discussions I had stereotypes driving my anger and prejudices too! He talked about stereotypes and showed some prejudices, but that doesn’t make him a racist. Now today I saw a post by him that proves discussion opens the doors for understanding. Unfortunately, I cannot find the post but I will put a link on this thread when I do.

IMHO, there is a minority on my side of the racial issue that thinks blacks - or any other group - are inferior, and there is a certain minority on the black side of the house that think that whites are inferior. Since we have created the atmosphere in this country that we have, it is incumbent on members of each race to discredit the racist in their group. That is the discussion I would like to see take place.

This is true but, the first step is for everyone involved to understand what RACISM or a RACIST is.

It would be nice if the press would examplify the numerous cases of white and black harmony (my children when I lived in a northern VA suburb would have been a great example), however that doesnt sell papers or air time. While well over 90% of whites and blacks get along in this nation, that doesnt make news. It only takes one boob - on either side - to make headlines.
We get along better than when I was a kid that’s for sure!
After all, imagine if Obama's minister preached peace amongst the races? I doubt anyone would even care.

Obama’s minister has never promoted hatred or actual animosity against any race. He’s being crucified for saying God Damn America and for making the statement “Hillary aint never been called a ***gah”. What he did was point out the atrocities that America has committed and the differences between Hillary and Barack. He could have chosen different words, but that is hindsight now. Heck, Martin Luther King came out and said God was going to take Americas power and damn the whole country to hell for its involvement in Vietnam! MLK wasn’t perceived as a Racist nor was his church! ???
The past is in the past and it cant be changed. It would be great if we could step forward into a future of racial harmony with the multi-ethnic (think of how many people there are here from every part of the world) American nation leading the way. We have led on some many issues, why cant we lead on this one, too. However, that wont be possible with members of any group embracing leaders who teach racial hatred. As for me, I will embrace any leader that doesnt give a crap about the color of ones skin.
QFT!

[Rohirrim]

Like I give a **** about the opinions of some Fader ahole.

[Maximus]

[I]The William (or Willie) Lynch Speech (or Letter) is a hoax text of modern origin which drew widespread attention when it circulated throughout the Internet during the 1990s.

There are also groups of people who still think the Holocaust never happened ???


America's mission statement? Not hardly. America's mission statement is the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights..

Too bad the bill of rights wasn't written to include the Indians who owned this land and the African Slaves who helped to cultivate and build the country... The true mission statement was forced labor in order to help the wealthy prosper... If it wasn't the mission of elite who had direct influence in the government ... there would not have been a necessity for a Civil War to end Slavery.

[yavoon]

- the board wouldnt let me quote all your post and mine...

Max, in spite of the fact that you are a Raider fan, you are a good poster. (Did I say that? It must be the great Chilean wine I am enjoying).

However, as a white dude, this is the way I see it.


Personally, I don’t blame anyone outside of the generations for the Racism that occurred 300 years ago. I can say that there are African-Americans who blame all White people for everything that is wrong or that happens in our communities. However, most of the black people that I associate with do not judge entire groups based on past events. In general, we get pissed about individual instances of perceived racism or prejudice. Trust me every instance of prejudice is discussed! I can tell you in most cases, after the anger subsides, the blanket of blame disappears and the individual blame takes over. We know right from wrong and we share most of the same values. The people who get the blame for prejudice and bigotry during our time are [b]people like Yavoon, Bronco Jamus, Shakenbake, Rohirrim and Jason Whitlock.


The only thing that I’m going to disagree with is your use of majority and minority. The elite class was a minority. The elite class made the push for slavery. It was in their economic interest to have cheap labor. This isn’t too different from Americas current exploitation of poor countries willingness to provide cheap labor to produce our goods. So, it was a minority of people who caused slavery and it took a majority to break slavery.



I agree entirely with this after the civil war there was a backlash that fueled hatred for black people. So, the majority did allow Jim Crow laws to take effect and it took a majority to end Jim Crow.



Not true… Again, Our Generation was not responsible for Slavery, Lynching’s and Jim Crow… even though Lynching’s still occurred while I was a child and Jim Crow remains entrenched in the hearts of many right now ( Forsythe County, GA ). Here’s what people forget. African-Americans have given credit the deaths of Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner hasn’t been forgotten. We know that they died for our cause just like many others. After time elapses, the rhetoric outshines the reality. Here’s where I think the problem exists. The idea of saying thank you for something that is rightfully yours from birth can be viewed as demeaning. It’s almost like saying… Thank you for allowing me to be treated like a human being. Now that you’ve helped me, I’m not an alien anymore. Personally, I think it would take dignity out of the situation. White people stood up because it was the right thing to do… not for the idea of getting a thank you…



QFT Both have their drawbacks and sometimes they are correct. However, they are starting to lose touch with a lot of the concerns of the Black community.



I disagree with the bolded part of this statement. Here’s why…
Cutthemdown and many others on OM have had numerous heated debates about things concerning race and racism. In the past I considered him a racist and I called him one. However, since those discussions I recognized the fallacy in my calling him or anyone else a racist. Because In our discussions I had stereotypes driving my anger and prejudices too! He talked about stereotypes and showed some prejudices, but that doesn’t make him a racist. Now today I saw a post by him that proves discussion opens the doors for understanding. Unfortunately, I cannot find the post but I will put a link on this thread when I do.



This is true but, the first step is for everyone involved to understand what RACISM or a RACIST is.


We get along better than when I was a kid that’s for sure!


Obama’s minister has never promoted hatred or actual animosity against any race. He’s being crucified for saying God Damn America and for making the statement “Hillary aint never been called a ***gah”. What he did was point out the atrocities that America has committed and the differences between Hillary and Barack. He could have chosen different words, but that is hindsight now. Heck, Martin Luther King came out and said God was going to take Americas power and damn the whole country to hell for its involvement in Vietnam! MLK wasn’t perceived as a Racist nor was his church! ???

QFT!

reverend wright, and black liberation theology in general holds america to be institutionally racist. the us of kkk a were his words. it is not a minor theme to reverend wright or black liberation theology that white america is pervasively racist. but then again he's just trying to bring us together by calling us all racists. if I'm to understand the tortured logic right.

[Maximus]

Like I give a **** about the opinions of some Fader ahole.

That's about what I expect from someone like you!

[Rohirrim]

There are also groups of people who still think the Holocaust never happened ???



Too bad the bill of rights wasn't written to include the Indians who owned this land and the African Slaves who helped to cultivate and build the country... The true mission statement was forced labor in order to help the wealthy prosper... If it wasn't the mission of elite who had direct influence in the government ... there would not have been a necessity for a Civil War to end Slavery.

And these statements mean I'm a bigot? Did I state that slavery didn't happen, or was not heinous? No. I googled the writer of the letter to get more info and discovered the letter is a hoax. Did I say America is perfect? No. I said our ideals are great. We have a long way to go to live up to them, but the ideal is inspiring, which is no doubt why MLK often used the words of Jefferson to remind all Americans of our collective mission statement. I would think this would be self-evident. After all, doesn't "mission statement" mean you're on a mission?

I disagree with the historical interpretation believed by some, like the Reverend Wright and many in the PC school - and no doubt you - that caucasians are somehow "more" guilty of prejudice, bigotry, genocide and general crimes against humanity than any other race. What I've seen in history as a general rule is that when one group of humans gets a technological or numerical edge on any other group, they exploit it and steal the other groups' resources, usually be wiping out or enslaving the other group. I'm guessing this goes back to the very dawn of civilization. It's a human trait that has nothing to do with race.

After all, did white people invent slavery? The Europeans who went to Africa didn't bring the new idea of slavery to the African continent. They simply tapped into a thriving slave trade and used it to their own economic advantage. Did they go into the interior of Africa to get slaves? No, the slaves were brought to them by Arabs and other Africans who had been in operation a very long time, at least as far back as the Egyptians. In fact, they're still doing it. The Europeans were just new customers.

If there actually was such a document as the "Willie Lynch" letter, and no doubt there were things like that, is the entire white race guilty of its authorship? Reverend Wright would say yes. The PCs would say yes. I say no. At the same time that questionable document was purported to have been written, the Franklin brothers of Pennsylvania (James and Ben) were publishing anti-slavery essays. Should they be included in the authorship? In 1764, James Otis wrote, "The colonists are by the law of nature free born, as indeed all men are, white or black. . . ." Should he be included?

My family came here from Ireland at the start of the 20th Century. Should they share the collective white guilt for slavery? Hell, they came here to escape the genocidal policies of the British who were trying to starve them to death in their own country. Then they get over here and they're shoved into slums and told they are subhuman. America has never treated newcomers very well. In fact, the historical conflicts between the Irish and African Americans come from the fact they were fighting over the same crumbs tossed down to them from those above. That's why when Reverend Wright starts saying things about the "white man" oppressing his race, me and my family are going, "Huh?"

I simply think that most PC concepts are :bs: I believe that the "celebration of diversity" is :bs: I believe that Reverend Wright's philosophy, as represented by the videotaped speeches I've seen, is :bs: The celebration of diversity is simply highlighting those things which separate us. What we should be doing is celebrating those things which point out we're all the same. We should have a collective guilt for all of human history, not just those little parts that we can separate ourselves out and point at others and say, "See? You're worse than we are." Beneath the melanin levels in our skin we cannot even be sorted out by our DNA. Given the way things are going, in a few hundred years there might only be one race left, and it will be a mixture of all the races that exist now. Maybe then, people will be reading about all this stuff and going, "That's some messed up ****."

Someone once said, "Our history does not dictate our future." Well, Reverend Wright is stuck in our history. IMO, we've already moved past that. Time to wake up and join the future.

[Odysseus]

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the White Community
3. Commitment to the White Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the White Work Ethic
7. Commitment to self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the White Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting White Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the White Value System.

maybe this is the america you want. this happens to not be the america I want. we can all "understand" each other across big fences of hateful forceful racism...oh wait not racism. "racial advocacy" that sounds so much better.

I would like to see a poll of how many on this board are in line with this line of thinking. In a society where the majority makes the rules you have a pretty good chance of getting your wish. Why don't you post a poll here?

[footstepsfrom#27]

I would like to see a poll of how many on this board are in line with this line of thinking. In a society where the majority makes the rules you have a pretty good chance of getting your wish. Why don't you post a poll here?
Before you can poll people on their views of "this line of thinking" it's a good idea to make sure we know a bit more and agree about what "this line of thinking" actually is. What we're discussing here is Wright's individual personal response to a system of theology...black liberation theology...and whether it's appropriate...ie; racist...or not.

This is a subject that's been characterized in the press as offensive, meaning that it's offensive primarily to white people. Indeed it is, but this really tells us very little because many things are offensive in discussions of race, especially when they're missunderstood. But how many people have taken any time to try to understand Wright and his views within the larger context of a theological belief system? In here...the answer is probably none. Theology is not a subject that's going to get any serious play in here, but if you're going to have a clue what Wright's about, you have to look not just at what he says, but what he believes, and WHY...and THAT is essential to getting what this is all about to him.

I'm willing to bet few people here in this discussion have the slightest familiarity with this subject, and more than likely had never heard of black liberation theology until now. Intelligent discourse about something demands a higher degree of responsibility however. It means looking deeper and it eschews the temptation to leap to conclusions before searching for all the facts. I believe that unlike the Jim Crow era and our longer past, most people today are not racists so much as they are guilty of holding certain stereotypes that are the result of simple laziness. Laziness allows us the luxury of jumping to conclusions...and that nearly always limits our understanding.

So before polling people on what they think of the "Black Value System", maybe it would be a good idea to define it like WRIGHT defines it instead of how WE are likely to define it. Observe...he defines it here:
http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%20value%20system.pdf

[Odysseus]

Before you can poll people on their views of "this line of thinking" it's a good idea to make sure we know a bit more and agree about what "this line of thinking" actually is. What we're discussing here is Wright's individual personal response to a system of theology...black liberation theology...and whether it's appropriate...ie; racist...or not.

This is a subject that's been characterized in the press as offensive, meaning that it's offensive primarily to white people. Indeed it is, but this really tells us very little because many things are offensive in discussions of race, especially when they're missunderstood. But how many people have taken any time to try to understand Wright and his views within the larger context of a theological belief system? In here...the answer is probably none. Theology is not a subject that's going to get any serious play in here, but if you're going to have a clue what Wright's about, you have to look not just at what he says, but what he believes, and WHY...and THAT is essential to getting what this is all about to him.

I'm willing to bet few people here in this discussion have the slightest familiarity with this subject, and more than likely had never heard of black liberation theology until now. Intelligent discourse about something demands a higher degree of responsibility however. It means looking deeper and it eschews the temptation to leap to conclusions before searching for all the facts. I believe that unlike the Jim Crow era and our longer past, most people today are not racists so much as they are guilty of holding certain stereotypes that are the result of simple laziness. Laziness allows us the luxury of jumping to conclusions...and that nearly always limits our understanding.

So before polling people on what they think of the "Black Value System", maybe it would be a good idea to define it like WRIGHT defines it instead of how WE are likely to define it. Observe...he defines it here:
http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%20value%20system.pdf

I wasn't suggesting a poll on the "Black Value System". That was an assumption. I was suggesting a poll and new thread on who agreed with Yavoon.

I wasn't planning on taking this thread further off track. I wanted to create another thread and learn from what people actually thought.

[Odysseus]

reverend wright, and black liberation theology in general holds america to be institutionally racist. the us of kkk a were his words. it is not a minor theme to reverend wright or black liberation theology that white america is pervasively racist. but then again he's just trying to bring us together by calling us all racists. if I'm to understand the tortured logic right.

This place is a house of mirrors.

If I try to establish one positions connection to another then people get flinchy and defensive.

If I try to define the full context then the real point disappears into the shifting sands of I don't get it or twisted into something I didn't say.

If I try to describe something specific to itself it gets lost in spelling smack, the size of the font, the poster's team preference or golly gee I didn't draw inside the lines.

[Odysseus]

"Don't run away it's only me
Don't be afraid of what you can't see"

Chorus - Dead man's party --- Oingo Boingo

[Odysseus]

Crickets chirping!

I guess I don't know the secret handshake. My bad!

[Maximus]

I guess I don't know the secret handshake. My bad!

This is what happens... People come in with their limited point of view and when the gauntlet is thrown down they shut up. Deep inside they know what the truth is, but they continue to hang onto biased uninformed opinion. Diversionary tactics, name calling and overall denial are the only tools they have in the arsenal. The silence is telling... it always is!

[Bronco Jamus]

The people who get the blame for prejudice and bigotry during our time are [b]people like Yavoon, Bronco Jamus, Shakenbake, Rohirrim and Jason Whitlock.

Whatever. More ridiculous dribble from you. Shouldn't you get back to calling your country a whore?

[Rohirrim]

This is what happens... People come in with their limited point of view and when the gauntlet is thrown down they shut up. Deep inside they know what the truth is, but they continue to hang onto biased uninformed opinion. Diversionary tactics, name calling and overall denial are the only tools they have in the arsenal. The silence is telling... it always is!

This is what happens... People are given an opportunity to share their opinions about race in America and if they don't parrot the politically correct mediocrity based on one political group's agenda they are labeled bigots, so they learn to shut their mouths, ignore the subject, and learn the valuable lesson that reaching out is neither required, requested or desired. In the world of PC, you zip it and nod. The silence is telling... it always is!

[Spider]

The wheels on the bus go round and round

[Odysseus]

This is what happens... People are given an opportunity to share their opinions about race in America and if they don't parrot the politically correct mediocrity based on one political group's agenda they are labeled bigots, so they learn to shut their mouths, ignore the subject, and learn the valuable lesson that reaching out is neither required, requested or desired. In the world of PC, you zip it and nod. The silence is telling... it always is!

I don't have a problem reaching out to racists, sexists, or bigots of all kind. Look how long I have posted on this board. ;)

I don't claim perfection and cannot stand political correctness. The problem is if the only thing you are looking for is people to agree with you. If you don't want to listen then you are correct you should not speak. I listen to crap posted here all the time. I don't say anything. I let people find their own way. Instead of waiting for your turn to speak why don't you listen?

I know...(insert insulting verbage here) could be true but I'm not trying to be right. I am trying to see if you are willing to stand up be counted. I asked Yavoon to test his theories out here. He folded like a house of cards.

The floor is yours. Teach me something.

[Odysseus]

Whatever. More ridiculous dribble from you. Shouldn't you get back to calling your country a whore?

Since when are whores bad? America is a whore and she's been good to me!

Why are you so filled with anger?

[Bronco Jamus]

Since when are whores bad? America is a whore and she's been good to me!

Why are you so filled with anger?

you are reading emotion that isn't there. I don't get angry.

[Odysseus]

you are reading emotion that isn't there. I don't get angry.

What? You've never heard of Jake Plummer?

[Bronco Jamus]

haha. Jake Plummer. Frustrating for sure, but it's just a game.

[baja]

The Broncos are not the elite team they had been for so many years and the down slide started with the leaving of Plummer. Cutler was a better option and the right choice but the way the thing was handled was reflective of the disconnect Shanny has slipped into beginning with the handling of Jake Plummer.

Players are not so anxious to play for Shanahan as they once were.

I think what happened is when Kubes left Shanny lost his buffer and that is when things started to go down hill.

[yavoon]

This is what happens... People are given an opportunity to share their opinions about race in America and if they don't parrot the politically correct mediocrity based on one political group's agenda they are labeled bigots, so they learn to shut their mouths, ignore the subject, and learn the valuable lesson that reaching out is neither required, requested or desired. In the world of PC, you zip it and nod. The silence is telling... it always is!

the discussion only counts if you tow the PC line, for sure.

[Odysseus]

the discussion only counts if you tow the PC line, for sure.

The quality of an idea reflects the community it benefits. Political correctness is a legal response to a cultural injustice. Because it is a reponse to stupidity it in itself carries a stain of stupidity.

You want support for your ideas here and yet when I requested a poll to see where this support could come from you did not post this. Why?

[yavoon]

The quality of an idea reflects the community it benefits. Political correctness is a legal response to a cultural injustice. Because it is a reponse to stupidity it in itself carries a stain of stupidity.

You want support for your ideas here and yet when I requested a poll to see where this support could come from you did not post this. Why?

huh? why do you need to request I make a poll? I don't even know where you're going with whatever dumbass poll you want to make. but certainly you are welcome to make a poll whenever you wish. why do you need me to do it for you?

political correctness is a legal response? are we getting sued now? sounds like more nonsensical defense of minority racism.

[cbs1177]

I read some of the thread but not all. But if my church ever GD America then I would redraw support. I love God and all he has created and I love America and civics but I don't ever want to hear God's name used in vain or America lower its standards. I work in Memphis a hotbed for racist tension and all. So I experience all day long week long. I just find myself in a unique position to try to let others think outside the box. I am abino african american and you are a super tanned white american that is all we all are. Color doesn't even enter my brain. I grew up as a minority being white and work in a workplace being a minority so I really don't see racism as others see it espically I dont' appreciate churches preaching bigorty and division. All Jesus was for was harmony. He even sat and talked with a Samarian woman...aka the black chick...the KKK clan....the communist... or any other person you want to fit into your narrow mindness. Nothing of this preaching to a climax and getting the masses towards a cresnadoe. It ain't working b/c I seen many in the community in which I work in go to church but live another life. Life serves us curve balls but thus it makes us stronger and able to survive the next crisises. For those of you who think I am kidding I have a typical memphis employee and his thinking on life is Rome was a fairy tale b/c they didn't have tv... they made up stories of the past and he really doesn't think history is important. Also all life is worth living for is to F*** chicks.. get money...and get things...only reason he doesn't go to the illegal stuff is b/c he doesn't want his mom answering stuff for the cops. All the life is worth is chicks, rims, and the last technology even if it is a 200 dollar cell phone bill b/c it has all the bells and whistle no thoughts to the future and plus if you try to impact young peoples lifes you will be killed like Martin Luther King Jr. So that is what I work with every day to try to make the world a little brighter and attempt to guild someone towards something not so negative.

[Odysseus]

huh? why do you need to request I make a poll? I don't even know where you're going with whatever dumbass poll you want to make. but certainly you are welcome to make a poll whenever you wish. why do you need me to do it for you?

political correctness is a legal response? are we getting sued now? sounds like more nonsensical defense of minority racism.

What support do you have for your ideas Yavoon? What percentage of this board that we are both on favoring your ideas. Simple request. Don't you want to know who is sympathetic to your cause?

I think black radicals are fools. Walking around in African clothes does not make you an African. What tribe does that cloth come from? What is their history? There are cultural norms in the black community that should be looked at and should be changed but in context currently our tax dollars are building hospitals, roads, water lines, schools and power lines in Iraq. Is that a pro white position? What about the bridges in America? Is that a pro black position? What if we brought manufacturing to urban areas and kept more jobs in America? The only color we should see is green.

The problem with racism is it was started to create an economic advantage. Those two issues cannot be seperated in Amercia by anything other than time. We cannot create fairness only opportunity.

Republicans lie and say that people without boots should pull their boot straps. Democrats lie and say that they know what size boot fits every foot. The balance is in between where we look clearly at one issue and find that one solution instead of bouncing back and forth over arguements that will never be resolved.

When paratroopers were first created they did not have any volunteers. When they doubled the pay to jump out of airplanes. Did they all like each other? Who cares. It always comes down to money. There will always be positives and negatives to any situation. Everything has a price including love, freedom or hating someone you have no knowledge about.

[yavoon]

What support do you have for your ideas Yavoon? What percentage of this board that we are both on favoring your ideas. Simple request. Don't you want to know who is sympathetic to your cause?

I think black radicals are fools. Walking around in African clothes does not make you an African. What tribe does that cloth come from? What is their history? There are cultural norms in the black community that should be looked at and should be changed but in context currently our tax dollars are building hospitals, roads, water lines, schools and power lines in Iraq. Is that a pro white position? What about the bridges in America? Is that a pro black position? What if we brought manufacturing to urban areas and kept more jobs in America? The only color we should see is green.

The problem with racism is it was started to create an economic advantage. Those two issues cannot be seperated in Amercia by anything other than time. We cannot create fairness only opportunity.

Republicans lie and say that people without boots should pull their boot straps. Democrats lie and say that they know what size boot fits every foot. The balance is in between where we look clearly at one issue and find that one solution instead of bouncing back and forth over arguements that will never be resolved.

When paratroopers were first created they did not have any volunteers. When they doubled the pay to jump out of airplanes. Did they all like each other? Who cares. It always comes down to money. There will always be positives and negatives to any situation. Everything has a price including love, freedom or hating someone you have no knowledge about.

what support for what ideas? and yes to socialists it always comes down to money. this is like the other thread when Obama called people in small town america gun toting, bible thumping, racists because they lost their jobs. it always pisses the socialists off that the proletariat might not always vote for them.

and you seem to want to paint me as the unreasonable one. I hold no racist views, I hold no desire to discriminate economically on the basis of race. reverend wright, and more generally people on the left are the racists. they are the ones that believe in determining everything based on race.