Champ not happy with losing Elam and a few other offseason moves

[Hulamau]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/mar/25/champ-concerned-over-loss-elam/

First time I've heard Champ voice his concern like this about front office moves.

[Dagmar]

Yup. Sucks he is fufilling his life long dream of playing alongside his brother.

[Los Broncos]

Posters were talking about this in another thread.

I hope he doesn't become unhappy in Denver.

But im assuming he knows how the business of football works, people come and go.

[Meck77]

Mare? http://www.nfl.com/players/olindomare/profile?id=MAR095836

You have to be kidding me. Take a look at his stats. Elam is no spring chicken but the guy has been clutch.

[broncos loveI]

Mare? http://www.nfl.com/players/olindomare/profile?id=MAR095836

You have to be kidding me. Take a look at his stats. Elam is no spring chicken but the guy has been clutch.

No kidding. I know that Mare dude can't make game winning FG's like Elam.

[CBF1]

Champ,

Shut up and play the game.... Leave the business end of things to the guy shelling out 100+ million to the players and worry more about making this team atleast .500.

Losing key players, are you kidding me ? Did you not watch any of the Bronco games on NFL replay??? You guys pretty much stunk up the place with that great run _efense

[CBF1]

No kidding. I know that Mare dude can't make game winning FG's like Elam.


I was sitting in Denver a few years back vs the Dolphins and saw Mare kick a 50 yarder to win the game. This was the game where Kennedy knock out Chris Chambers going across the middle.

[broncos loveI]

Champ,

Shut up and play the game.... Leave the business end of things to the guy shelling out 100+ million to the players and worry more about making this team atleast .500.

Losing key players, are you kidding me ? Did you not watch any of the Bronco games on NFL replay??? You guys pretty much stunk up the place with that great run _efense

I love Champ , but you are right on the number with this one.

[RhymesayersDU]

"What a flava clown!!1 Cut him now!!!!111"

[broncos loveI]

I was sitting in Denver a few years back vs the Dolphins and saw Mare kick a 50 yarder to win the game. This was the game where Kennedy knock out Chris Chambers going across the middle.

Yea, I agree but his skills have diminished alot more over the years than elams.

[CBF1]

Yea, I agree but his skills have diminished alot more over the years than elams.


It was simple... 3 million a year for a specialist. Elam can not kick off any longer so it was time to move on. Why not be as mad at Elam for making it all about the qwan instead of being loyal to the team. Mr Bowlan took very good care of Jason for 15 years, maybe Jason could have paid back the favor and taken the offer he was given.

It does go both ways.

[Popps]

Champ is no dummy.

He knows if getting his mediocre brother is as good as it gets... we're in deep trouble for another season.

It's obviously early, and the draft could yield something... but this off-season has bee a giant snoozer, and we're certainly no better than we were in week 16.

[Hogan11]

Elam must've owed him money or something....Ha!

[CBF1]

Champ is no dummy.

He knows if getting his mediocre brother is as good as it gets... we're in deep trouble for another season.

It's obviously early, and the draft could yield something... but this off-season has bee a giant snoozer, and we're certainly no better than we were in week 16.


Champ should have told Bowlen to forget about Boss and sign Elam instead.

[peacepipe]

Whatever,he's earned the right to speak his mind. It doesn't make a differance how much bowlen spends because the players are a big part of why he has the money to spend.

[Orange_Beard]

No $hit, his momma named him Champ.

[bronco militia]

other than Ealm, what's he whining about?

[NFLBRONCO]

other than Ealm, what's he whining about?

Trade himROFL!

[Atlas]

He has not said a word since he has been here. He is just preparing for a hold out next. This way he'll have an excuse for holding out.

[Broncobiv]

It was simple... 3 million a year for a specialist. Elam can not kick off any longer so it was time to move on. Why not be as mad at Elam for making it all about the qwan instead of being loyal to the team. Mr Bowlan took very good care of Jason for 15 years, maybe Jason could have paid back the favor and taken the offer he was given.

It does go both ways.
Good call. I'm more mad at Elam than anyone. I mean, he's been in the league for 15 years, drafted by the Broncos and stayed with the team for his whole career. Now he moves on, past his prime, at the tail end of his career, moving away from the one team who made him known as one of the most clutch kickers in history, for what?? An extra 1 or 2 million bucks? After 15 years in the league, I hardly think that's gonna make a big dent in his retirement plans.

I blame Jason for selling out for $1 million and leaving the only team he's ever known.

[Popps]

Champ should have told Bowlen to forget about Boss and sign Elam instead.

Honestly, you probably have a point.

I'll try to reserve judgment on Boss for a while. But thus far in his career, he's developed a reputation as a taller Ian Gold.

[wabbit]

Good call. I'm more mad at Elam than anyone. I mean, he's been in the league for 15 years, drafted by the Broncos and stayed with the team for his whole career. Now he moves on, past his prime, at the tail end of his career, moving away from the one team who made him known as one of the most clutch kickers in history, for what?? An extra 1 or 2 million bucks? After 15 years in the league, I hardly think that's gonna make a big dent in his retirement plans.

I blame Jason for selling out for $1 million and leaving the only team he's ever known.

You are joking, right??

Someone offers me an extra mil more I'm there before they finish the phone call...and no-one knows for certain what the Broncos had on the table.

Football is a business...your family & financial security comes way before any loyalty to a business.

[Hogan11]

Honestly, you probably have a point.

I'll try to reserve judgment on Boss for a while. But thus far in his career, he's developed a reputation as a taller Ian Gold.

Well, if Boss makes Champ happy....maybe he'll only resign for half the team's cap instead of 3/4's of it when his contract is up Ha!

[Northman]

You are joking, right??

Someone offers me an extra mil more I'm there before they finish the phone call...and no-one knows for certain what the Broncos had on the table.

Football is a business...your family & financial security comes way before any loyalty to a business.


Yea, i dont blame him especially at his age. He is looking towards retirement and wants to have a secured future. Just business there and i think its time for the Broncos to move on without him. He was great most of the time but was definitely losing some of his luster. If Champ cant handle it than he can move on too. Maybe he should have tried to convince Jason to stay or even take a paycut to have Jason stay if he was that important.

[Northman]

Well, if Boss makes Champ happy....maybe he'll only resign for half the team's cap instead of 3/4's of it when his contract is up Ha!


No ****. Ha!

[Broncobiv]

You are joking, right??

Someone offers me an extra mil more I'm there before they finish the phone call...and no-one knows for certain what the Broncos had on the table.

Football is a business...your family & financial security comes way before any loyalty to a business.
I'm sticking to my original train of thought of, "After 15 years in the league, I hardly think ($1 million) is gonna make a big dent in his retirement plans."

Elam must've really invested poorly if he's worried about $1 mil after 15 years in the National Football League. Is that why he wrote his book? He's barely scraping by these days?

[Northman]

I'm sticking to my original train of thought of, "After 15 years in the league, I hardly think ($1 million) is gonna make a big dent in his retirement plans."

Elam must've really invested poorly if he's worried about $1 mil after 15 years in the National Football League. Is that why he wrote his book? He's barely scraping by these days?


So, in your opinion making more money is bad? Especially if a team is willing to give it too you?

[Broncobiv]

So, in your opinion making more money is bad? Especially if a team is willing to give it too you?
Plenty of people stick with a job or company based on the concept of loyalty. Even though the money may be better at a competitor, certain factors keep you with your current employer. Obviously the scale is a little different in Elam's case, and we can't compare ourselves to him directly ($1 mil to me is a LOT different than $1 mil to him). But the concepts are the same.

[Northman]

Plenty of people stick with a job or company based on the concept of loyalty. Even though the money may be better at a competitor, certain factors keep you with your current employer. Obviously the scale is a little different in Elam's case, and we can't compare ourselves to him directly ($1 mil to me is a LOT different than $1 mil to him). But the concepts are the same.


True, but loyalty is a two way street. Perhaps Jason felt that Denver wasnt being loyal to him by not matching the number that he wanted. At the end of the day i think that Jason knew he was on limited time and at some point Denver was going to consider replacing him. Add in the fact that he couldnt do kickoffs anymore and i think the Broncos just didnt see paying him that kind of coin. Like i said in another thread on Elam i hope when all is said and done he still retires as a Bronco but i can certainly understand why he might want to get a last payday before he retires. And if a team is willing to pay a kicker winding down his career that kind of money than i can understand that.

[bdv]

Champ,

Shut up and play the game.... Leave the business end of things to the guy shelling out 100+ million to the players and worry more about making this team atleast .500.

Losing key players, are you kidding me ? Did you not watch any of the Bronco games on NFL replay??? You guys pretty much stunk up the place with that great run _efense

No way, dude. The way he plays... more than any Bronco today, Champ's earned the right to say what he wants.

[Broncobiv]

True, but loyalty is a two way street. Perhaps Jason felt that Denver wasnt being loyal to him by not matching the number that he wanted. At the end of the day i think that Jason knew he was on limited time and at some point Denver was going to consider replacing him. Add in the fact that he couldnt do kickoffs anymore and i think the Broncos just didnt see paying him that kind of coin. Like i said in another thread on Elam i hope when all is said and done he still retires as a Bronco but i can certainly understand why he might want to get a last payday before he retires. And if a team is willing to pay a kicker winding down his career that kind of money than i can understand that.
I see your point, but I just hate to see professional athletes leaving the one team they've been with their entire career, simply to find that one last payday for one last year or two before they retire. Then they crawl back to the team that built their legend in order to "retire as a XXXXX". There are plenty of examples of that in the NFL and NBA, and unfortunately, Elam will be one more.

[24champ]

Well, if Boss makes Champ happy....maybe he'll only resign for half the team's cap instead of 3/4's of it when his contract is up Ha!

Not when he has to carry 3/4 of this pathetic defense.

[bdv]

No surprise. The Christian right, in contrast to Jesus' teachings, place a high priority on material wealth. Why else would they have such cohesion with the supply side economists of the Republican party?

[Hulamau]

Champ is no dummy.

He knows if getting his mediocre brother is as good as it gets... we're in deep trouble for another season.

It's obviously early, and the draft could yield something... but this off-season has bee a giant snoozer, and we're certainly no better than we were in week 16.

Yeap, maybe a bit better at LB ... but If we don't take a stud ready to play DT early or snap Robinson, it could be another long season for the D.

[Rohirrim]

I have the distinct feeling that there will come a game this season where Shanahan will realize he has made a mistake by letting Jason walk, and this board will explode because we will all know that the kicker lost a game that Elam would have won.

[Hogan11]

Not when he has to carry 3/4 of this pathetic defense.

No kidding....I dread the day his contract is up.

[dbfan21]

I was sitting in Denver a few years back vs the Dolphins and saw Mare kick a 50 yarder to win the game. This was the game where Kennedy knock out Chris Chambers going across the middle.

That was a wicked hit! I'd love to catch again that on replay!!

The end of the game sucked, though. Talk about the wind being taken out of your sails. :-(

[sirhcyennek81]

Yea, I agree but his skills have diminished alot more over the years than elams.


Uhh...he is 2 seasons removed from leading the NFL in interceptions...he was also banged up alot last year. Be real.


:Broncos:

[sirhcyennek81]

No surprise. The Christian right, in contrast to Jesus' teachings, place a high priority on material wealth. Why else would they have such cohesion with the supply side economists of the Republican party?


Good grief...


:Broncos:

[Man-Goblin]

Everything Bailey said was true, and personally I'm glad he's putting a little public pressure on the organization.

[bronco_diesel]

i wish elam could have stayed with the broncos his entier career.

that said, we continually hear how we wish the broncos would manage their team more like the pats or colts. i recall a few years back the pats let their kicker go...


there are simply too many holes on the team to keep a kicker who cannot do double duty. it was time to cut ties and put that money and roster spot towards areas of bigger need.

[Beantown Bronco]

He has not said a word since he has been here. He is just preparing for a hold out next. This way he'll have an excuse for holding out.

Not to single you out, as others have been doing the same thing, but it's amazing the pass Champ gets because of his talent.

I can't remember the last time a microphone was put in Champ's face that he wasn't calling someone out. During the season, he openly criticized Webster. Immediately after the season, despite what some believe, he called out the offense. Now he's calling out the organization.

We are teetering on dangerous ground here. If his name was Gold or Engleberger and he was making these statements, I wonder what the reaction around here would be. Actually, there's no need to wonder.

[2KBack]

Uhh...he is 2 seasons removed from leading the NFL in interceptions...he was also banged up alot last year. Be real.


:Broncos:

He was talking about Mare.

[Popcorn Sutton]

I'm happy for Elam... 39 and he gets a 4 year deal worth a lot of coin. Good for him and he's going back to his hometown. I would have done the same thing.

I hope they just buckle down and get a young Gostowski type kicker instead of filling in the hole with a declining Mare, but who am I?

[Sprout]

No surprise. The Christian right, in contrast to Jesus' teachings, place a high priority on material wealth. Why else would they have such cohesion with the supply side economists of the Republican party?

GMAFB... people of all stripes have that same priority. Unless I'm mistaken and Ted Turner, Bill Gates, Ben & Jerry, the Kennedys, 99% of your favorite entertainers, George Soros, etc, etc, etc are all raging bible thumpers, too.

[2KBack]

GMAFB... people of all stripes have that same priority. Unless I'm mistaken and Ted Turner, Bill Gates, Ben & Jerry, the Kennedys, 99% of your favorite entertainers, George Soros, etc, etc, etc are all raging bible thumpers, too.

I'm an athiest libertarian, and I LOVE money

[Northman]

I see your point, but I just hate to see professional athletes leaving the one team they've been with their entire career, simply to find that one last payday for one last year or two before they retire. Then they crawl back to the team that built their legend in order to "retire as a XXXXX". There are plenty of examples of that in the NFL and NBA, and unfortunately, Elam will be one more.


I agree.

[Gcver2ver3]

we're in deep trouble for another season.

It's obviously early, and the draft could yield something... but this off-season has bee a giant snoozer, and we're certainly no better than we were in week 16.

i disagree...

the moves we've made has made us better...not playoff better, but still better...

heck, just removing ian gold and nate webster makes us better...

anyway, don't expect us to contend this upcoming season...we can't keep trying to fool ourselves into thinking we're just a player or two away from the SB...

i'm glad this offseason has been a "snoozer"...

we've finally landed a stud QB so let's build pieces around him the right way...

no more band aids...

[eddie mac]

Champ should have told Bowlen to forget about Boss and sign Elam instead.

Yup. I also dont recall Champ offering any of his $8m in cash this year to keep Jason around.

[Atwater His Ass]

Champ is concerened that we've lost our all-pro kicker that won us 4 games last year. He was in a similar situation in Washington with the revolving kicker door; and it's not like Prater hasn't been cut by other teams. Yeah, let's string Champ up because he has a valid point.

You guys are ridiculous yet again.

[Beantown Bronco]

Champ is concerened that we've lost our all-pro kicker that won us 4 games last year.

Sorry, Elam did not single handedly win 4 games for the Broncos last year.

People seem to forget that Elam MISSED two field goals in the Buffalo game and only got a chance to redeem himself because the offense drove the length of the field in the final minute and put him in easy fg range (42 yarder).

He also missed a second half field goal in the Oakland game that would've sealed the deal before OT. Again, the offense (with a little help from Shanny's timely timeout) bailed him out and got him in range for a 23 yard field goal. That's a successful kick 99% of the time for any kicker in the NFL.

He hasn't been all-pro in a long time. Nor has he kicked off in a long time. It was time to move on.

[OABB]

Sorry, Elam did not single handedly win 4 games for the Broncos last year.

People seem to forget that Elam MISSED two field goals in the Buffalo game and only got a chance to redeem himself because the offense drove the length of the field in the final minute and put him in easy fg range (42 yarder).

He also missed a second half field goal in the Oakland game that would've sealed the deal before OT. Again, the offense (with a little help from Shanny's timely timeout) bailed him out and got him in range for a 23 yard field goal. That's a successful kick 99% of the time for any kicker in the NFL.

He hasn't been all-pro in a long time. Nor has he kicked off in a long time. It was time to move on.



end. of. thread.

[Atwater His Ass]

Sorry, Elam did not single handedly win 4 games for the Broncos last year.

People seem to forget that Elam MISSED two field goals in the Buffalo game and only got a chance to redeem himself because the offense drove the length of the field in the final minute and put him in easy fg range (42 yarder).

He also missed a second half field goal in the Oakland game that would've sealed the deal before OT. Again, the offense (with a little help from Shanny's timely timeout) bailed him out and got him in range for a 23 yard field goal. That's a successful kick 99% of the time for any kicker in the NFL.

He hasn't been all-pro in a long time. Nor has he kicked off in a long time. It was time to move on.

I know you hate Elam and all, but I also know you aren't stupid enough to miss the point I was making.

Fact is, Elam made 4 game-winning kicks last season. Hasn't been done in what, 17 years? I would call that significant. You can spin it however you want, and you will, but that is still a fact. It is more a testament to the type of kicker he is, the actual number isn't as important.

Losing Elam is a significant loss. Especailly when we have no one on our roster that can replace him currently.

54/60 last 2 seasons.

[OABB]

I know you hate Elam and all, but I know you aren't stupid enough to miss the point I was making.

Fact is, Elam made 4 game-winning kicks last season. You can spin it however you want, and you will, but that is still a fact.

Losing Elam is a significant loss. Especailly when we have no one on our roster that can replace him currently.

did you not see my end of thread post?....


seriously, though...a player is cut or let go for many reason's. okay-three..

age, money and performance. when age goes up and performance goes down, money goes down. if said player wants money to go up while performance goes down he is either humbled or sent packing to some horrible team that is desperate.(falcon's)

as much as I love elam, this was the right move 100 times over.

[Kaylore]

Champ is concerened that we've lost our all-pro kicker that won us 4 games last year. He was in a similar situation in Washington with the revolving kicker door; and it's not like Prater hasn't been cut by other teams. Yeah, let's string Champ up because he has a valid point.

You guys are ridiculous yet again.

I agree. Last season alone he won us so many games. Elam is one of the best and we've been spoiled and it'll show this season. I suspect we'll drop a couple of games because of his departure next year and the haters will be here whining about it in November.

[OABB]

I agree. Last season alone he won us so many games. Elam is one of the best and we've been spoiled and it'll show this season. I suspect we'll drop a couple of games because of his departure next year and the haters will be here whining about it in November.

Elam was well on his way to breaking elways all time come-from-behind victories record, as well as pushing farve for most wins. we let him go too soon.

[Beantown Bronco]

I know you hate Elam and all, but I know you aren't stupid enough to miss the point I was making.

Fact is, Elam made 4 game-winning kicks last season. You can spin it however you want, and you will, but that is still a fact.

Spin?

Spinning is saying that Elam single handedly won those two games listed above.

Spinning is saying that Elam WON the Pittsburgh game for Denver. They scored 31 pts in that game. Cutler threw for 250 yards and 3 TDs. Elam kicked ONE field goal. Yeah, he won that one for them alright.

Spinning is saying that Elam WON the Minnesota game for Denver. Again, Cutler threw for 250 yards and 2 TDs. Marshall caught 10 passes for 114 yards and 1 TD. Elam kicked two easy field goals: a 30 yarder and a 43 yarder. Yup, he was clearly the game winner there.

Any kicker in the league is expected to, and usually does, make those kicks.

10 kickers in the league were statistically better than him last year. More than that also had the ability to handle kick offs for their teams.

Elam's not the only one in the league to kick a field goal in the fourth quarter or as time expires, yet for some reason people here think he is the only one.

Losing Elam is a significant loss. Especailly when we have no one on our roster that can replace him currently.

If we are saying this in September, then I'd worry. In March? No way.

Statistically, Todd Sauerbraun was a better punter than Elam was a kicker. Yet nobody is crying about what a significant loss that was. We know it will be dealt with in the draft or FA, and that's that.

[Atwater His Ass]

did you not see my end of thread post?....


seriously, though...a player is cut or let go for many reason's. okay-three..

age, money and performance. when age goes up and performance goes down, money goes down. if said player wants money to go up while performance goes down he is either humbled or sent packing to some horrible team that is desperate.(falcon's)

as much as I love elam, this was the right move 100 times over.

I don't know where you've been the last few seasons, but look at what Elam has done in the timeframe and you'd realize that is performance has been some of the best of his entire career. Elam is worth every cent he's getting paid from Atlanta.

Champ and the rest of us are more concerned that the plan at the moment seems to be bringing in Mare and giving Prater an inside track at the job. Newsflash: These are bad choices for an important position.

[Beantown Bronco]

I agree. Last season alone he won us so many games. Elam is one of the best and we've been spoiled and it'll show this season. I suspect we'll drop a couple of games because of his departure next year and the haters will be here whining about it in November.

No way do we drop games due to missed field goals next season. His longest game winning attempt last season came from 43 yards.....a gimme for half the league's kickers.

On the other hand, they may WIN games next season that they would've lost with Elam, because they may actually have a guy who can kick the ball into the endzone consistently and change field position entirely. More games are decided by field position than last second field goals.

[Atwater His Ass]

I see you take Elam for granted beantown. I suppose it's not too surprising considering Elam has been spoiling us for 15 years. We'll come back and check these opinions when our kicking game is a shadow of its former self later in the season.

[OABB]

I don't know where you've been the last few seasons, but look at what Elam has done in the timeframe and you'd realize that is performance has been some of the best of his entire career. Elam is worth every cent he's getting paid from Atlanta.

Champ and the rest of us are more concerned that the plan at the moment seems to be bringing in Mare and giving Prater an inside track at the job. Newsflash: These are bad choices for an important position.

no one is happy about the loss of elam. He is a great kicker and has made huge kicks for us. But his performances were slipping, and he wanted more than we were willing to pay.

the decision to not pay him, while sad, was the right thing for the denver broncos. that is the point here.


and we give way to much credit to a kicker. He was one of the best, and probably has hof credentials, but he was not the same kicker these last two years and everyone knows that.

[Atwater His Ass]

no one is happy about the loss of elam. He is a great kicker and has made huge kicks for us. But his performances were slipping, and he wanted more than we were willing to pay.

the decision to not pay him, while sad, was the right thing for the denver broncos. that is the point here.


and we give way to much credit to a kicker. He was one of the best, and probably has hof credentials, but he was not the same kicker these last two years and everyone knows that.

WTF? 54/60 and 2/3 from 50+ yards last 2 years. How is that "performance slipping"? You live under a rock? If you think Elam wanted too much so we let him go, fine. I can accept that as a valid opinion, I don't agree with it, but I can see your point of view there. But to say his performance was slipping is just TOO FREAKING STUPID. You are ridiculous if you really think that.

Elam accomplished something that hasn't been done in 17 years (or was it 14? w/e) and that's "performance slipping"? My god.

Elam is one of the best; not was one of the best.

[Beantown Bronco]

Elam is one of the best; not was one of the best.

You can only say this when you include his 2006 numbers and you ignore the fact that kickers are also supposed to kickoff. If you look purely at his 2007 numbers and rank him behind comparable kickers that also kick off, he doesn't crack the top 10. Yet Atlanta is paying him the second highest contract in the league at his position.

[OABB]

WTF? 54/60 and 2/3 from 50+ yards last 2 years. How is that "performance slipping"? You live under a rock? If you think Elam wanted too much so we let him go, fine. I can accept that as a valid opinion, I don't agree with it, but I can see your point of view there. But to say his performance was slipping is just TOO FREAKING STUPID. You are ridiculous if you really think that.

Elam accomplished something that hasn't been done in 17 years (or was it 14? w/e) and that's "performance slipping"? My god.

Elam is one of the best; not was one of the best.

what's that line about stats lying. Elam had lost his power, and yes as beantown pointed out he could not even kick off... He plays in MILE-HIGH stadium and he can't kick off? he has the nfl record for the longest kick in the history of the game, and yet shanny chose to either punt or go for it whenever we sniffed the 35 yard line. He may have had decent accuracy the last two years, but I guarantee you his accuracy would have dropped had the coach trusted he could kick more long balls.

and again, to go from kicking a 63 yarder to be unable to kick a kick off would suggest a slip in performance.

he missed the field goal that put us down on buffalo and also sent the oakland game into overtime. so yeah, I would say his performances were slipping there as well.

he did however hit many average kicks in MILE HIGH stadium.

Don't forget him pulling his hamstring on his boot leg. the guy can't even run...

I have not been living under a rock, I have been watching the games. I just use logic and common sense to fill in the gaps that are left in stat sheets.

[Atwater His Ass]

You can keep spouting that top 10 stuff all you want. We both know it goes both ways and a kick or two different moves him up to the top. You can argue that that makes Elam expendable, and I can argue it makes him the best kicker in the league; tomato, tomoto.

Kicking off doesn't bother me one bit. My opinion is that Elam can still kick off, just wasn't asked too and preferred not to. I could really care less if we have a punter or kicker doing kick offs. It's a non-issue.

[smalltowngrll]

I don't know where you've been the last few seasons, but look at what Elam has done in the timeframe and you'd realize that is performance has been some of the best of his entire career. Elam is worth every cent he's getting paid from Atlanta.



Unfortunately, most here look at his age and they determine a conclusion rather than looking at the actual numbers! The numbers tell the truth!

[Atwater His Ass]

what's that line about stats lying. Elam had lost his power, and yes as beantown pointed out he could not even kick off... He plays in MILE-HIGH stadium and he can't kick off? he has the nfl record for the longest kick in the history of the game, and yet shanny chose to either punt or go for it whenever we sniffed the 35 yard line. He may have had decent accuracy the last two years, but I guarantee you his accuracy would have dropped had the coach trusted he could kick more long balls.

and again, to go from kicking a 63 yarder to be unable to kick a kick off would suggest a slip in performance.

he missed the field goal that put us down on buffalo and also sent the oakland game into overtime. so yeah, I would say his performances were slipping there as well.

he did however hit many average kicks in MILE HIGH stadium.

Don't forget him pulling his hamstring on his boot leg. the guy can't even run...

I have not been living under a rock, I have been watching the games. I just use logic and common sense to fill in the gaps that are left in stat sheets.

How do you know he can't kick-off? You don't. And even if he can't, who the **** cares? Again, non-issue.

Let's crucify the guy because he missed 6 whole kicks over the last 2 years and can't pull off a freak trick play we've called once in 15 years. Solid logic there bro. Real solid.

And I know you haven't bothered to look, but Elam has made 50+ yard FGs at the same rate over the past 5 seasons as he did over his first 5 seasons in the league. But it's just too easy to say he's lost leg strength isn't it? If that helps you feel better about it all, than I suppose. But you'd be wrong again.

[Beantown Bronco]

I see you take Elam for granted beantown.

Not so much taking him for granted as much as acknowledging after much research that the difference between the top kicker and the #25 or so ranked kicker last year was one or two misses all season long. And, given the difference in dome vs. open air, mile high vs sea level, and overall distance of the kick attempts, there really isn't a whole heck of a lot of difference there. It's only with the bottom 5 or so kickers that you really see a noticeable drop-off in talent, so as long as you don't go out of your way to pick one of those, the chances of a kicker costing you games left and right (and not winning some others back later on) is pretty slim.

The gap has narrowed with regard to kickers in the last 5-10 years, if not more. This isn't the old days where kickers were made to be kickers on the fly and their reliability was on par with a 10 year old Daewoo.

[Beantown Bronco]

How do you know he can't kick-off? You don't. And even if he can't, who the **** cares? Again, non-issue.

Couldn't disagree on that point more. Not having a guy who can kick off is only a non-issue if you plan on getting shut out every week.....or on-side kicking it every time.

[OABB]

How do you know he can't kick-off? You don't. And even if he can't, who the **** cares? Again, non-issue.

Let's crucify the guy because he missed 6 whole kicks over the last 2 years and can't pull off a freak trick play we've called once in 15 years. Solid logic there bro. Real solid.

And I know you haven't bothered to look, but Elam has made 50+ yard FGs at the same rate over the past 5 seasons as he did over his first 5 seasons in the league. But it's just too easy to say he's lost leg strength isn't it? If that helps you feel better about it all, than I suppose. But you'd be wrong again.

dude, I am not crucifying the man. had he accepted whatever contract was offered I would be as happy as you that he is on the team. but, whether you see it or not, his PERFORMANCE was not worth the money he was asking and yes his power was receding. It is common for man to lose some power as he gets older, this is no secret.

HE is a great kicker, as I have said many times, but this was a football decision that was the correct call. I think SHanahan has been in the league long enough to know the value of a good kicker, and he also understands how to play the curve. players are like stocks, you want to sell high and buy low.

ELam, while subtle, is beginning to hit a downturn, and anyone with two eyeballs and a working optic nerve could see that he was beginning it. I am not saying that He is no longer a good kicker, just that he is beginning to lose performance and asking for too much money.

that is a recipe for playing on another team.

[Atwater His Ass]

Not so much taking him for granted as much as acknowledging after much research that the difference between the top kicker and the #25 or so ranked kicker last year was one or two misses all season long. And, given the difference in dome vs. open air, mile high vs sea level, and overall distance of the kick attempts, there really isn't a whole heck of a lot of difference there. It's only with the bottom 5 or so kickers that you really see a noticeable drop-off in talent, so as long as you don't go out of your way to pick one of those, the chances of a kicker costing you games left and right (and not winning some others back later on) is pretty slim.

The gap has narrowed with regard to kickers in the last 5-10 years, if not more. This isn't the old days where kickers were made to be kickers on the fly and their reliability was on par with a 10 year old Daewoo.

I can agree with you on some level here. I still think Elam is a cut above most kickers in the league and I still think you take him for granted. However, the bigger issue here for me is that we have Matt "been cut twice" Prater as the leading canidate and Olindo Mare perhaps coming in to compete. These guys are worse than a 10 year old Daewoo. This is concerning.

Elam is gone, so yeah, spilt milk whatever. I just hope we can get a reliable guy in here to at least not lose us games if he can't win them.

[Atwater His Ass]

dude, I am not crucifying the man. had he accepted whatever contract was offered I would be as happy as you that he is on the team. but, whether you see it or not, his PERFORMANCE was not worth the money he was asking and yes his power was receding. It is common for man to lose some power as he gets older, this is no secret.

HE is a great kicker, as I have said many times, but this was a football decision that was the correct call. I think SHanahan has been in the league long enough to know the value of a good kicker, and he also understands how to play the curve. players are like stocks, you want to sell high and buy low.

ELam, while subtle, is beginning to hit a downturn, and anyone with two eyeballs and a working optic nerve could see that he was beginning it. I am not saying that He is no longer a good kicker, just that he is beginning to lose performance and asking for too much money.

that is a recipe for playing on another team.


Again, how can you say his performance was lacking? This is laugable. Show me how his performance was lacking. I'm waiting.

[Northman]

At the end of the day it was the right call to let Jason go. It was a cost effective move and a good decision for both parties. I know it sucks that we cant always keep players on this team especially longterm players but thats the NFL for ya. The Broncos didnt have that kind of money or luxury to shell out for a aging kicker who doesnt do kickoffs. There are just too many holes that they have to fill and Jason became expendable at this point. Like i said earlier, if it was that important to Champ for Jason to stay than maybe Champ should have gotten with Shanny or Bowlen and reworked his contract to help try and keep him here. When Denver made their Super Bowl runs in the late 90
s Elway and TD reworked theirs to get the necessary players on the team to succeed and reach that goal. Is Champ obligated to rework his contract? No. But its easy to bitch when its not your money that gets shelled out.

[OABB]

Again, how can you say his performance was lacking? This is laugable. Show me how his performance was lacking. I'm waiting.

I'll start by repeating his missed field goals in buffalo an oakland in games one and two....two of the games btw that you give him credit for winning.

than I will re-mention that he is not handling kickoffs in MILE HIGH stadium.

than I will re-mention that a man with the LONGEST KICK IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL, is kept on the sidelines on forth downs when we are in this range.

than I will mention his hamstring injuries that have plauged him these past few years.

than I will re-mention that he is getting older, and no one escapes father time.

I will also re-mention that the front office of the denver broncos made the call to let him go because they felt he wasn't worth what he was asking.


The guy has HOF credentials, and our front office decided to let him go....

AGAIN, I am not saying he isn't a great kicker, or that mare or prater are better options. but he was not the same guy who kicked that 63yarder. whether it be injuries or age, he was not the same guy.


also,didn't he have one of his worst statistical season not too long ago ?

[Popcorn Sutton]

It's silly to talk about how Elam won 4 games last year (a feat that hadn't occurred in 17 years). If he had not missed 3 field goals in the first two games there would not have been a 'Toro Toro' or the 'infamous timeout' followed by a mere 23 yard field goal to win in overtime. He would have been credited with 2 game winning kicks.

I'll miss him in Denver but I can't fault the Broncos for deciding not to chase the money he got in a bloated free agency market. People act like all sorts of teams were beating down his door... All I heard was Atlanta and at this point, Atlanta like Oakland is paying too much for free agents because the team is in disarray. They dropped almost 40 million on Michael Turner when they had a pretty damn good backup in Jerious Norwood already.

[bowtown]

I can agree with you on some level here. I still think Elam is a cut above most kickers in the league and I still think you take him for granted. However, the bigger issue here for me is that we have Matt "been cut twice" Prater as the leading canidate and Olindo Mare perhaps coming in to compete. These guys are worse than a 10 year old Daewoo. This is concerning.

Elam is gone, so yeah, spilt milk whatever. I just hope we can get a reliable guy in here to at least not lose us games if he can't win them.

I love Elam. And have stood up for him many many times on this board. If you look at the numbers, the last 2 seasons have been great and I'm not one who buys into the idea that he is losing it and that we chose to go for it from beyond 50 because of his leg. I think it has more to do with Shanahan being a gambler, and it always has been.

All that said, Elam is not a top 3 kicker in this league. If you go back and look at his career statistics, he has never really been a top 3 kicker in the league... except maybe in 2006. He is consitently been an above average kicker, but not elite. In this league to have an above average kicker for 15 years is a luxury and we have certainly been spoiled. But an old above average kicker is not a top 5 kicker and is not worth top 5 kicker money, especially when you consider the extra amount you have to pay to get a guy to kick off for him.

I love Elam and his clutch ability is a nice intanglible but Atlanta is over paying for him and to tell you the truth, K is the least of my concerns with this team. I'd rather have the money and possible extra roster space-- assuming we have to carry a kickoff specialist-- or not be tied down to the stipulation that whatever punter we want also has to kickoff (not many of them do), to beef up the our offense, so we don't have to kick FGs, we score TDs, and improve our D so, we don't need last minute points to win games.

We should appreiate what Jason was for us and the time he gave us, but he is simply not worth what he is now getting paid. I'm not sure any kicker is.

[Atwater His Ass]

Couldn't disagree on that point more. Not having a guy who can kick off is only a non-issue if you plan on getting shut out every week.....or on-side kicking it every time.

Your kicker doesn't have to kick-off. Having a kick-off specialist isn't exactly a new phenomeon in the NFL these days.

Eye of the beholder bowtown. I can't really relate to your feelings that not only that Elam isn't one of the top 3 kickers, but never was. Absurd to me. The guy has HoF credentials.

[bowtown]

Your kicker doesn't have to kick-off. Having a kick-off specialist isn't exactly a new phenomeon in the NFL these days.

Eye of the beholder bowtown. I can't really relate to your feelings that not only that Elam isn't one of the top 3 kickers, but never was. Absurd to me. The guy has HoF credentials.

Problem is that people keep talking about looking at the numbers as evidence. Even I use that argument for proving that Elam is not slowing down... which I don't think he is. But if you use numbers for that argument then you have to stick by them, and the numbers will tell you that Elam has never been a top 3 kicker... in fact he has had some years that were down-right average.

[Atwater His Ass]

Most consecutive seasons with at least 100 points (15), most seasons with at least 100 points (15), fastest to 300 successful field goals, fastest to 1,600 points and fastest to 1,700 points.

That's not elite? What more do you need?

[Beantown Bronco]

Eye of the beholder bowtown. I can't really relate to your feelings that not only that Elam isn't one of the top 3 kickers, but never was. Absurd to me. The guy has HoF credentials.

Rod Smith has HOF credentials, but it could be argued that he was never one of the top 3 WRs in the game in any given season.

[Atwater His Ass]

Rod Smith has HOF credentials, but it could be argued that he was never one of the top 3 WRs in the game in any given season.

Rod Smith (as much as I love the guy) is not HoF material, for the reason you say. He was never the best WR in the NFL. In that respect, Rod does not have HoF credentials.

I can't say the same for Elam. In his prime, Elam was bar-none the best kicker in the NFL.

[OABB]

I can't say the same for Elam. In his prime, Elam was bar-none the best kicker in the NFL.

I should be aloud to atwater your ass you for this statement. You just repeatedly called me stupid for making this EXACT SAMEpoint. HOW CAN YOU SAY "IN HIS PRIME" he was the best in the SAME thread you argue that he hasn't lost a step.

now I ask YOU to defend this B.S.



I'm Waiting.

[Atwater His Ass]

I should be aloud to atwater your ass you for this statement. You just repeatedly called me stupid for making this EXACT SAMEpoint. HOW CAN YOU SAY "IN HIS PRIME" he was the best in the SAME thread you argue that he hasn't lost a step.

now I ask YOU to defend this B.S.



I'm Waiting.

No, what I'm arguing is that Elam hasn't lost the amount of ability that you claim. He's worth the contract he signed with Atlanta. You seem to be of the opinion that Elam should come in here for the vet minimum and be thankful for the opportunity.

You keep repeating about how his "performance" is drasticaly declining while he's the reality of it is he's put 2 of his best years over the last 2 seasons. A point you conviently keep ignoring.

I'm not blinded enough to think Elam is the best kicker in the league anymore, but he's still certaintly top 5 in my mind. That's where we differ. You think he's top 25.

So I'll ask again. What is it about Elam's recent seasons that you have concluded he's suffered a performance drop? Avoid if you can't answer the question I suppose, but I'd like to see your response here backed up with facts, not opinions.

[Beantown Bronco]

I can't say the same for Elam. In his prime, Elam was bar-none the best kicker in the NFL.

What criteria are you using for "bar none the best in the NFL"? He has never led the league in field goal percentage or been in the top 5 for more than one year in a row, so I'm not sure I can buy this statement.

[OABB]

No, what I'm arguing is that Elam hasn't lost the amount of ability that you claim. He's worth the contract he signed with Atlanta. You seem to be of the opinion that Elam should come in here for the vet minimum and be thankful for the opportunity.

You keep repeating about how his "performance" is drasticaly declining while he's the reality of it is he's put 2 of his best years over the last 2 seasons. A point you conviently keep ignoring.

I'm not blinded enough to think Elam is the best kicker in the league anymore, but he's still certaintly top 5 in my mind. That's where we differ. You think he's top 25.

wrong again. I never ranked him. In fact I have mostly said that I think he is a great kicker and I will miss him. ranking is for nerds and d-bags.

What i said was that he is not the same kicker and that his performance was slipping, much like yours is in this thread.

you clearly do not see how stating that he is no longer in his prime means that you agree with all posts above that stated the same thing, dummy.

and now, because you have been shown the error of your ways you are resorting to putting "words" in my mouth.

here, I'll sum it up for you.


you said that I was stupid for saying his skills were declining...remember....

now in the above quoted post you say "I am not blinded enough to say that elam is the best kicker in the league anymore."


and to top off you stupidity, you tell me that I don't rank elam as high as you when that was something another poster said, not me.

do you read these posts?

[Atwater His Ass]

What criteria are you using for "bar none the best in the NFL"? He has never led the league in field goal percentage or been in the top 5 for more than one year in a row, so I'm not sure I can buy this statement.

Most consecutive seasons with at least 100 points (15), most seasons with at least 100 points (15), fastest to 300 successful field goals, fastest to 1,600 points and fastest to 1,700 points.

63 yarder, most consecutive extra points, best extra point percentage of all-time, etc.

You don't amass these kind of statistics by being mediocre. Some of it is being on good teams, and the other part is taking advantage of those opportunites, regardless. It's not like is career 80% FG percentage is horrible.

What criteria would you use? Who, out of Elams generation, would you rate higher and why?

[Atwater His Ass]

wrong again. I never ranked him. In fact I have mostly said that I think he is a great kicker and I will miss him. ranking is for nerds and d-bags.

What i said was that he is not the same kicker and that his performance was slipping, much like yours is in this thread.

you clearly do not see how stating that he is no longer in his prime means that you agree with all posts above that stated the same thing, dummy.

and now, because you have been shown the error of your ways you are resorting to putting "words" in my mouth.

here, I'll sum it up for you.


you said that I was stupid for saying his skills were declining...remember....

now in the above quoted post you say "I am not blinded enough to say that elam is the best kicker in the league anymore."


and to top off you stupidity, you tell me that I don't rank elam as high as you when that was something another poster said, not me.

do you read these posts?

So, what part of 54/60 is performance slipping again?

You also said he wasn't worth the money Atlanta gave him, meaning you don't think he's a top tier kicker. It's not rocket science here.

And what "errors of my ways"? You're just flaimbating because you ran into someone who doesn't agree with mane mentailty about Elam and you're not sure what to do about it.

[bowtown]

Most consecutive seasons with at least 100 points (15), most seasons with at least 100 points (15), fastest to 300 successful field goals, fastest to 1,600 points and fastest to 1,700 points.

That's not elite? What more do you need?

Here are some differnt stats. These are Elam's percentages for eachyear he has been in the league and where that percentage ranks in relationship to other kickers. When compling the rankings I only used kickers who had attempted at least 25 field goals in a season to make it fair.

Year FG Pct Rank
1993 74.3 18th
1994 81.1 12th
1995 81.6 8th
1996 75.0 26th
1997 72.2 19th
1998 85.2 7th
1999 80.6 15th
2000 75.0 17th
2001 86.1 3rd
2002 72.2 21st
2003 87.1 6th
2004 85.3 9th
2005 75.0 23rd
2006 93.1 2nd
2007 87.1 7th

You'll notice that Elam was only in the top 5 twice in his entire career, and not in the top 10 for even half of the seasons in his career. What did Elam almost always rank in the top 5 of though? Field Goals and Extra Points attempted. A high powered offense run by one of the greatest offensive coaches in the game can do wonders for a kickers total point stats, but they don't tell all of the story.

Turns out Shanhan isn't only good for running backs numbers.

[OABB]

So, what part of 54/60 is performance slipping again?

You also said he wasn't worth the money Atlanta gave him, meaning you don't think he's a top tier kicker. It's not rocket science here.

And what "errors of my ways"? You're just flaimbating because you ran into someone who doesn't agree with mane mentailty about Elam and you're not sure what to do about it.

I think if anyone here has ever read any of my posts, they will know I am not the type to take a popular side of the argument just to win. I am not a flaimbater either, whatever the hell that is.

here's a better question for you....

what part of "he was the best in his prime, but I am not so blind as to say he is still top tier anymore" do you not understand in regards to YOU SEEING that his performance is slipping as well?????

And again, I never said he wasn't a top tier kicker. In fact I agree with you that he is one of the best ever...but he is slipping as you have so brilliantly pointed out, and thanks for that. it's always easier to win an argument when the guy your arguing with agrees with you.

and if you want me to explain how I see him slipping, than re-read my post where I answered that.

are you going to answer my question or continue to make statements up?

[Northman]

For what its worth i found a little thing on some people who were naming their top 5 kickers of alltime and this is what some of them came up with.


You have to start with Stenerud
#2 Morten Anderson
#3 Gary Anderson
#4 Jason Elam
#5 Mark Mosely



1. Adam Vinateri
2. Morten Anderson
3. Mark Moseley
4. Gary Anderson
5. George Blanda (also part quarterback)



Jan Stenrud
Morten Anderson
Adam Vinatieri
Jason Elam



david akers
george blanda
morten andersen
jason elam
tom dempsey


Pete Stoyanovich
Nick Lowery
Morten Anderson
Gary Anderson
Vanderjett


1. Adam Venetieri
2. Jason Elam
3. Gary anderson
4. George Blanda
5. Morton Anderson


Jan Stenerud (Only pure kicker in the Hall of Fame)
Nick Lowery
Morten Andersen
Adam Vinatieri
Gary Anderson



More stats and rankings on kickers.

http://www.bbnflstats.com/2008/02/2007-kicker-ranking.html



Still, this is just a cost effective move and if people cant move on from that than i dont know what to tell you at this point.

[2KBack]

Still, this is just a cost effective move and if people cant move on from that than i dont know what to tell you at this point.

Because holding a grudge allows people to come back in 2 years claiming to be personnel geniuses.

[Northman]

Because holding a grudge allows people to come back in 2 years claiming to be personnel geniuses.

Ha! LOL

[Gcver2ver3]

people need to get off the "we need elam" horse...

we have much bigger issues to worry about than a kicker...

i LOVE elam as a kicker but he took the money and ran, and i'm not mad at him one bit...

but there is no way we could afford to pay him that much especially considering he can't do kick-offs for us...

i wish elam the best...but thats about it...

he was great for us no doubt...but he's a kicker folks...

i think we can manage without him...

[Northman]

people need to get off the "we need elam" horse...

we have much bigger issues to worry about than a kicker...

i LOVE elam as a kicker but he took the money and ran, and i'm not mad at him one bit...

but there is no way we could afford to pay him that much especially considering he can't do kick-offs for us...

i wish elam the best...but thats about it...

he was great for us no doubt...but he's a kicker folks...

i think we can manage without him...



And at the end of the day this is all that matters for this situation. We didnt have the luxury to keep him and since none of the rest of the team seems to want to restructure their deals to make it more cap friendly than this is all that we are left with. New England had one of the best kickers in football and had no problem replacing him. Elam is a HOF in my book and hopefully he will retire as a Bronco but it just wasnt in the cards for him to stay here for what he was asking. And that is the bottom line here. He wasnt let go because he was declining, he was let go because he was asking for more money than Denver could give him.

[bdv]

GMAFB... people of all stripes have that same priority. Unless I'm mistaken and Ted Turner, Bill Gates, Ben & Jerry, the Kennedys, 99% of your favorite entertainers, George Soros, etc, etc, etc are all raging bible thumpers, too.

First of all, I was primarily referring to the hypocrisy of the fundamentalist Christian right wing of the Republican party, which comprises about 27% of this country's population. Not your average "Christian."

Second, you are mistaken. Bill gates, for example, is an atheist. Speaking of Bill Gates, he's given 46% of his wealth away and works tirelessly with his foundation to figure out how best to give away the rest. Warren Buffet, another atheist, has given $37 billion to gates' foundation. The Christian family who founded Wal-Mart, the Waltons: less than 1%. Hypocrites.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MellodyHobson/story?id=2118501&page=1

Warren Buffet frequently and publicly complains that he has to pay a LOWER PERCENTAGE of his earnings to the government than his $80k/year secretary. What are the Christian fundamentalists doing with these supply-siders in the Republican party? Based on Christ's teachings, they should mix about as well as oil and water. But they appear to be of one mind economically: a regressive tax system and dynastic wealth (a la "the death tax"...).

So, why would good middle class Christians want to pay a higher percentage of their earnings than the richest men in the world? Because they're ****ing dumb! They don't know it's happening. They're too apathetic to find out. After all, they "already have the truth" (dogmatic). The economic right wing of this country is playing them for the gullible fools that they are to get their votes.

One last thing, where the hell did you get the idea that 99% of us (or 99% of my "favorite entertainers") are Christians, let alone fundamentalists? We can thank the gods, because you're not even close... Thanks to the internet, you're more wrong each year. This link will get you started in the right direction regarding a few famous atheists:

http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm

And don't forget to spend some time here:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/index.php

[bronco_diesel]

First of all, I was primarily referring to the hypocrisy of the fundamentalist Christian right wing of the Republican party, which comprises about 27% of this country's population. Not your average "Christian."

Second, you are mistaken. Bill gates, for example, is an atheist. Speaking of Bill Gates, he's given 46% of his wealth away and works tirelessly with his foundation to figure out how best to give away the rest. Warren Buffet, another atheist, has given $37 billion to gates' foundation. The Christian family who founded Wal-Mart, the Waltons: less than 1%. Hypocrites.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MellodyHobson/story?id=2118501&page=1

Warren Buffet frequently and publicly complains that he has to pay a LOWER PERCENTAGE of his earnings to the government than his $80k/year secretary. What are the Christian fundamentalists doing with these supply-siders in the Republican party? Based on Christ's teachings, they should mix about as well as oil and water. But they appear to be of one mind economically: a regressive tax system and dynastic wealth (a la "the death tax"...).

So, why would good middle class Christians want to pay a higher percentage of their earnings than the richest men in the world? Because they're ****ing dumb! They don't know it's happening. They're too apathetic to find out. After all, they "already have the truth" (dogmatic). The economic right wing of this country is playing them for the gullible fools that they are to get their votes.

One last thing, where the hell did you get the idea that 99% of us (or 99% of my "favorite entertainers") are Christians, let alone fundamentalists? We can thank the gods, because you're not even close... Thanks to the internet, you're more wrong each year. This link will get you started in the right direction regarding a few famous atheists:

http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm

And don't forget to spend some time here:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/index.php

there is this forum that is callled war, politics and religion...or something like that.

[rbackfactory80]

Facts are Elam had "the" gene. The clutch gene where he made the kicks that count unlike the many others out there. In all reality Elam would still be in Denver if it was believed that Denver had a chance this year. Denver will drop a couple games due to not having Elam.

[Beantown Bronco]

Denver will drop a couple games due to not having Elam.

I keep hearing this, but have seen nothing to substantiate it.

Someone who feels this way, name me one or two active kickers in this league who have consistently (more than once) cost their team games by missing game winning kicks.

[rugbythug]

Of the 4 walk off Game winning Kicks Elam made this year. Two were that because of missed FG earlier in the game.

[rbackfactory80]

I keep hearing this, but have seen nothing to substantiate it.

Someone who feels this way, name me one or two active kickers in this league who have consistently (more than once) cost their team games by missing game winning kicks.

Are you crazy??? Every week there is one or two. I'm not going to go back and look through game logs but of the top of my head Janikowski would work. Don't waste my time or any one elses time bringing up stats about Elam. When the chips were down he came through. Fact is we lose 2 of the 4 we won last year with his boot if we have a different kicker. Have some respect for a true great.

[rbackfactory80]

I keep hearing this, but have seen nothing to substantiate it.

Someone who feels this way, name me one or two active kickers in this league who have consistently (more than once) cost their team games by missing game winning kicks.

Stop over analyzing stuff and look for players who seize the moment. Its not all about numbers.

[Beantown Bronco]

Are you crazy??? Every week there is one or two. I'm not going to go back and look through game logs but of the top of my head Janikowski would work.

In the game against the Broncos? Please. That kick was well over 50 yards. I'm talking kicks that one EXPECTS a kicker to make, but doesn't. I don't think the mighty Elam even has any game winners from over 50.

[Beantown Bronco]

Stop over analyzing stuff and look for players who seize the moment. Its not all about numbers.

That's exactly what I'm doing. Guys hit game winners every week, but some folks around here are all but insisting that Elam is the only one capable of doing it. Not only that but they (and you) are going a step further and guaranteeing the Broncos will lose games because of their kicker......AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO IT WILL BE YET.

Elam only "seized the moment" because the offense put him in a position to do it twice in the first two weeks of the season. One of those kicks in particular was just over 20 yards. Do you honestly believe that whoever kicks for the Broncos is going to miss that kind of kick?

[rbackfactory80]

That's exactly what I'm doing. Guys hit game winners every week, but some folks around here are all but insisting that Elam is the only one capable of doing it. Not only that but they (and you) are going a step further and guaranteeing the Broncos will lose games because of their kicker......AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO IT WILL BE YET.

Elam only "seized the moment" because the offense put him in a position to do it twice in the first two weeks of the season. One of those kicks in particular was just over 20 yards. Do you honestly believe that whoever kicks for the Broncos is going to miss that kind of kick?

I saw Vinetairi miss against the chargers from that distance. Kickers are much more important then you them credit for.

[Northman]

I saw Vinetairi miss against the chargers from that distance. Kickers are much more important then you them credit for.


Well, come on Rback. The field conditions were horrible that night.

[DenverBrit]

Elam wouldn't be an issue if the D could stop anyone and the O could score in the red zone.

[rbackfactory80]

Well, come on Rback. The field conditions were horrible that night.


http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/michael_silver/02/04/five.plays/p1_vinatieri.jpg

[Gcver2ver3]

That's exactly what I'm doing. Guys hit game winners every week, but some folks around here are all but insisting that Elam is the only one capable of doing it. Not only that but they (and you) are going a step further and guaranteeing the Broncos will lose games because of their kicker......AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO IT WILL BE YET.




Very nice Beantown...

Rep...

[Northman]

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/michael_silver/02/04/five.plays/p1_vinatieri.jpg


Kicking in snow can be easier than kicking in a hurricane. Just saying.

[bowtown]

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/michael_silver/02/04/five.plays/p1_vinatieri.jpg

I don't understand what point you are trying to make now. That good kickers sometimes miss field goals? Yes, I agree with you. That Vineteri is being paid too much money? I agree with you as well. Elam has missed more field goals in his career and doesn't kick off, yet he is now being paid more than Adam. I'll say it again, no kicker is worth that much money.

[Bladerunner]

Sweet!....another thread where everyone is right and gets to argue about it.

I fully expect losing Elam will hurt in the near term...it may even cost the team a game or two next year...Champ, understandably, doesn't want to have a game or two lost because we shipped our potential HOF kicker...

nevertheless, from a franchise management standpoint, letting Elam take the 2nd highest kicker contract in the league from another team was the right decision. The Broncos have other needs to address and need a wise allocation of cash and cap to improve this team in the long run.

[rbackfactory80]

I don't understand what point you are trying to make now. That good kickers sometimes miss field goals? Yes, I agree with you. That Vineteri is being paid too much money? I agree with you as well. Elam has missed more field goals in his career and doesn't kick off, yet he is now being paid more than Adam. I'll say it again, no kicker is worth that much money.

Dude if you don't understand pick up a book or better yet read the entire thread. Knowledge is power. Peace Bra

[Beantown Bronco]

I saw Vinetairi miss against the chargers from that distance. Kickers are much more important then you them credit for.

Show me where I said kickers weren't important.

All I've said is that from the #1 rated kicker to the #25 or so rated kicker this past season, there wasn't a whole heck of a lot of difference. What IS important is not picking up one of the other 5-7 guys who are noticeably worse than the others.

[rbackfactory80]

Show me where I said kickers weren't important.

All I've said is that from the #1 rated kicker to the #25 or so rated kicker this past season, there wasn't a whole heck of a lot of difference. What IS important is not picking up one of the other 5-7 guys who are noticeably worse than the others.

Its between the head. The foot means nothing, they are all basically the same. Elam was top two upstairs. You just under value. Don't cry to me when we bring the next guy and he doesn't come through, when you expected him to because you were so used to Jason. All guys make kicks in the middle of games but when the pressure is on no one is better

[Beantown Bronco]

All guys make kicks in the middle of games but when the pressure is on no one is better

Actually, I don't think that's accurate. I believe Josh Brown has more game winners in the past two seasons than Elam. I wouldn't doubt it if there were others as well. Just because you don't follow other team's kickers doesn't mean they aren't winning games on pressure kicks.

[rbackfactory80]

Actually, I don't think that's accurate. I believe Josh Brown has more game winners in the past two seasons than Elam. I wouldn't doubt it if there were others as well. Just because you don't follow other team's kickers doesn't mean they aren't winning games on pressure kicks.

Actually I do. I have a kicking shrine up in my house.

[eddie mac]

For me it's negatives and positives.

On one hand we lose one of the most accurate kickers in the league who's been a rock for this franchise since we drafted him. Jason has bailed this team out on many occasion especially over the past 2-3 years when our offense struggled inside the 20.

On the other hand it seems that this franchise whether by choice or not is getting rid of the old and bringing in a new regime in terms of younger players all over the roster and NOT overpaying for FA's, whether they're our own or not (see Chris Myers and Jason Elam). That may well have a benefit in the kicker's case because everyone knows Elam doesn't have the leg strength to kick over 50 yards anymore even in the thin air in Denver plus he hasn't had the leg strength to kick-off for the past few seasons. That in itself has been detriment to the team in terms of Special Teams and at times the Broncos wasting a roster spot with 3 kickers in the 53.

Personally given the numerous holes in the current roster that need to be partially filled with the upcoming draft class, I dont think one more in the 2008 season is going to make that much difference in terms of this team seeing any playoff action. It will in 2009 however, so in between now and then Denver have to find themselves a clutch kicker.

[orinjkrush]

You are joking, right??

Someone offers me an extra mil more I'm there before they finish the phone call...and no-one knows for certain what the Broncos had on the table.

Football is a business...your family & financial security comes way before any loyalty to a business.

jason deserves what the market will bear. period. its as much a bidness for the players as it is for the owners and the league.

it will mean however, losing two maybe three games this season and perhaps next. unless our new kicker can get off a FG in 8 seconds.

[Gcver2ver3]

jason deserves what the market will bear. period. its as much a bidness for the players as it is for the owners and the league.

it will mean however, losing two maybe three games this season and perhaps next. unless our new kicker can get off a FG in 8 seconds.

hogwash...

[Chris]

are there no Mason Crosby's this year?

[BroncoBuff]

Even after Marcus Truffant's new deal today, Champ's 2004 contract still has him the highest paid CB in the league.

As great as he is - and he is the best CB - we obviously overpaid there. Guys are setting new record high contracts every couple weeks in the last 4 offseasons ... but Champ is still the highest paid CB four years later? Somebody screwed up ....

[BroncoBuff]

are there no Mason Crosby's this year?
Not really ... but Brandon Coutu is pretty good.

Think Brandon Coutu and Durant Brooks ... we have more than enough 2nd days picks to make both happen.

[Chris]

How is Nate Clemens not higher paid than him?

[Odysseus]

You are joking, right??

Someone offers me an extra mil more I'm there before they finish the phone call...and no-one knows for certain what the Broncos had on the table.

Football is a business...your family & financial security comes way before any loyalty to a business.

I don't know a anybody that would take a 33% paycut to stay on their current job. We don't know what guarantees or incentives were in place.

Has anyone here ever looked at an NFL contract? :spit:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What criteria are you using for "bar none the best in the NFL"? He has never led the league in field goal percentage or been in the top 5 for more than one year in a row, so I'm not sure I can buy this statement.Top 5 using what criteria? He was top 3 last year among kickers with 30 or more attempts.

[BroncoBuff]

How is Nate Clemens not higher paid than him?
The Clements contract is heavily backloaded with non-guaranteed money. It made headlines, but Champ still makes more money. I think I saw where - if the 49ers keep him and pay the contract in 2010 - then he would make more than Champ is set to make in 2008 (the last year of Champ's deal). But that's a big "if."

Clements' contract dollars were hype ...

[24champ]

The Clements contract is heavily backloaded with non-guaranteed money. It made headlines, but Champ still makes more money. I think I saw where - if the 49ers keep him and pay the contract in 2010 - then he would make more than Champ is set to make in 2008 (the last year of Champ's deal). But that's a big "if."

Clements' contract dollars were hype ...

Still Buff, just curious. A player of Champ's caliber, how much should he be getting paid?

I mean your not saying that Trufant, Hall, Clement are anywhere near Champ's level of play are you?

If not then why the ****ing about Champs contract.

[BroncoBuff]

Relax there, Cowboy ...

The logic is pretty straight. Contracts expand exponentially ... every season guys break records, over and over. So, even though Champ is still the best, the fact that his FOUR YEAR OLD contract still pays him more than any corner means we overpaid. I'll betcha his is the oldest "highset paid at X position" contract out there. Simple.

[BroncoBuff]

Put it this way ... if we franchise tag Champ next year, he'll actually take a pay CUT. After playing out a four-year old contract! That means we overpaid.

It's not rocket science Knowitall

[wolf754life]

mike shannahan will fix it all guys!!!

have no fear, shanny is hear to save us!

[Beantown Bronco]

Top 5 using what criteria? He was top 3 last year among kickers with 30 or more attempts.

Pretty slick number manipulation, there. Less than half the kickers in the league had 30 or more attempts last season, so that is faulty criteria you are using. Bump it down to 20 or more attempts, which all but the pure part-time replacement kickers had, and he is ranked 10th in the league.

And if you really want to play with numbers, you'd see that only 7 kickers in the entire league had more attempts from under 30 yards than Elam.

[Traveler]

Just read that the team save a whopping $180,000 by trading Myers to the Texans and signing Wiegman.

In football dollars, we should have just kept Myers IMO. I thought the team wa trying to get younger.

[Beantown Bronco]

Just read that the team save a whopping $180,000 by trading Myers to the Texans and signing Wiegman.

In football dollars, we should have just kept Myers IMO. I thought the team wa trying to get younger.

Was that savings based off of the difference in Wiegman's contract and the tender offer they made Myers.....or was it the difference in Wiegman's contract and the contract Houston signed him for that Denver would've had to match. There's a big difference there.

[Traveler]

Was that savings based off of the difference in Wiegman's contract and the tender offer they made Myers.....or was it the difference in Wiegman's contract and the contract Houston signed him for that Denver would've had to match. There's a big difference there.

The numbers are in on new offensive lineman Casey Wiegmann. Keeping with the Broncos' budget-tightening ways, the exchange of Wiegmann for Chris Myers as a top reserve did save the team money.

To keep the restricted free-agent Myers, 26, the Broncos in hindsight likely would have needed to slap him with a second-round tender and $1.41 million salary. Instead, the team gave Myers only a sixth-round tender and he was snatched away last week by the Texans, who immediately made him their starting center.

To fill Myers' role, the Broncos gave Wiegmann, 34, a $300,000 signing bonus, an $830,000 salary for 2008 and a $100,000 workout bonus. Add it up, and the Broncos are likely to pay $1.23 million to Wiegmann this season, or $180,000 less than what they would have paid Myers as a second-round tender.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_8706809

[24champ]

The logic is pretty straight. Contracts expand exponentially ... every season guys break records, over and over. So, even though Champ is still the best, the fact that his FOUR YEAR OLD contract still pays him more than any corner means we overpaid. I'll betcha his is the oldest "highset paid at X position" contract out there. Simple.

I guess I will restate my question to you.

What corner out there should be breaking contract records? Which one should be getting paid more than Champ? Trufant? Hall? Clements?

The fact is there isn't any Corner better than Champ, and the fact his contract pays him the highest for 4 years means the Broncos KNEW that he was going to be the BEST for that duration of the contract.

Being overpaid means that you didn't live up to the contract you signed. Champ Bailey has lived up to his contract.

[BroncoBuff]

I guess I will restate my question to you.

What corner out there should be breaking contract records? Which one should be getting paid more than Champ? Trufant? Hall? Clements?

The fact is there isn't any Corner better than Champ, and the fact his contract pays him the highest for 4 years means the Broncos KNEW that he was going to be the BEST for that duration of the contract.

Being overpaid means that you didn't live up to the contract you signed. Champ Bailey has lived up to his contract.
You're just not getting it ... your points are irrelevant to what I'm saying.

I told you - WE AGREE - Champ is the best CB out there. Nobody should be making more than him in the same contract cycle. But if Champ - or if any player for that matter - is still the highest paid at his position in the fourth year of his contract, in the free agency/salary cap era, that team overpaid for him. Period. If you franchise tag a guy, and he takes a pay CUT, then you f'd up. And that's exactly what will happen next year if we tag him.


You want I should explain it again, or should we just leave it?

[bowtown]

Period. If you franchise tag a guy, and he takes a pay CUT, then you f'd up. And that's exactly what will happen next year if we tag him.


I can 100% guarantee that we won't tag him next year.

[Beantown Bronco]

But if Champ - or if any player for that matter - is still the highest paid at his position in the fourth year of his contract, in the free agency/salary cap era, that team overpaid for him. Period.

Not sure I want to jump in this one, but what the heck.

Look at if from the other side of the coin. Most long term contracts I've seen (especially ones like Champs that have already been renegotiated to make cap room in prior years) increase in value from year one to year two to year three and so on. Therefore, isn't it the case more often than not that a player is making more money (at least in terms of salary) in the fourth year of his contract than the first? It doesn't mean you overpaid. It just means you backloaded the contract.....like all teams do.

To further emphasize this point. Champ wasn't the highest paid last year or the year before, if you take into account bonuses and such. It's only now, because he has gotten into that part of his contract where the base salary starts to spike, that he has become the highest paid.

[Beantown Bronco]

I can 100% guarantee that we won't tag him next year.

me too. No reason to tag a guy who is under contract through 2010.

[bowtown]

me too. No reason to tag a guy who is under contract through 2010.

Eggzactly :thumbs:

[BroncoBuff]

Champ wasn't the highest paid last year or the year before, if you take into account bonuses and such. It's only now, because he has gotten into that part of his contract where the base salary starts to spike, that he has become the highest paid.
Are you sure about this? I had thought Champ was, a) the highest paid defensive player in the league when he signed, and b) has remained at least the highest paid CB since then. I understand that contracts pay more and more as years go on ... but even Peyton freaking Manning wasn't the highest paid QB when he came up for renewal ... it's all about I N F L A T I O N. What did David Garrard say the other day? Something like, "we're not talking Matt Schaub money anymore, now we're talking Tony Romo money." Salaries move up and up and up and up and up.

Anyway, I renew my challenge: I'm betting no player has ever taken a pay CUT after being hit with the franchise tag. I greatly hope it doesn't come to that with Champ next year, but if we did tag him, he wuld take a pay cut.


And BTW, Amigo ... I hadn't thought about your Username and that you might be sensitive about it ;D ... Champ is clearly the best at his position, I never hinted otherwise - nobody deseves to be paid more.

[peacepipe]

Put it this way ... if we franchise tag Champ next year, he'll actually take a pay CUT. After playing out a four-year old contract! That means we overpaid.

It's not rocket science Knowitall not necessarily true, A franchise tag only means you're contract within the average scale of the top 5 at your position. Champs contract is merely at the top do to fact he is widely considered the best in the league.Champ may or may not be overpaid but his contract does set the bar that the franchise tag is based on.

[24champ]

not necessarily true, A franchise tag only means you're contract within the average scale of the top 5 at your position. Champs contract is merely at the top do to fact he is widely considered the best in the league.Champ may or may not be overpaid but his contract does set the bar that the franchise tag is based on.

Hey! You don't get it! :spit:


When a guy continually says Champ could be tagged next year when his contract runs through 2010, his credibility on the issue is shot.

He might be up for a contract extension soon and I hope it happens so he can be a Bronco for life. ;D

[Beantown Bronco]

Are you sure about this? I had thought Champ was, a) the highest paid defensive player in the league when he signed, and b) has remained at least the highest paid CB since then. I understand that contracts pay more and more as years go on ... but even Peyton freaking Manning wasn't the highest paid QB when he came up for renewal ... it's all about I N F L A T I O N. What did David Garrard say the other day? Something like, "we're not talking Matt Schaub money anymore, now we're talking Tony Romo money." Salaries move up and up and up and up and up.

Anyway, I renew my challenge: I'm betting no player has ever taken a pay CUT after being hit with the franchise tag. I greatly hope it doesn't come to that with Champ next year, but if we did tag him, he wuld take a pay cut.


And BTW, Amigo ... I hadn't thought about your Username and that you might be sensitive about it ;D ... Champ is clearly the best at his position, I never hinted otherwise - nobody deseves to be paid more.

Actually, I just did some research and the entire premise of Champ taking a paycut if he were franchised is incorrect.

2008 franchise tag amount for CBs = $9.5 million

Champ's 2008 salary = $7.5 million + $500,000 in workout bonuses.

Not only would Champ get an increase in pay if he was franchised in 2008 (even though we all know he can't be because he's under contract anyway), this must mean that there are a few CBs making higher salaries than him this year.

[BroncoBuff]

Actually, I just did some research and the entire premise of Champ taking a paycut if he were franchised is incorrect.

2008 franchise tag amount for CBs = $9.5 million

Champ's 2008 salary = $7.5 million + $500,000 in workout bonuses.

Not only would Champ get an increase in pay if he was franchised in 2008 (even though we all know he can't be because he's under contract anyway), this must mean that there are a few CBs making higher salaries than him this year.
That doesn't make sense ... the franchise tag averages the top 5 salaries at the position. If the top 5 average is more than Champ makes, then Champ is not the highest paid CB ... and the Seattle paper said yesterday that Trufant's new deal was #4 for CBs - they listed Champ, Clements and the new Hall deal with Raiders as the top 3.

The problem is that contract numbers are near impossible to comprehend... A year ago Nate Clements signed what was called I think an "80 million dollar" contract. Well, it came out shortly threafter that very little was guaranteed, and he was in fact making less than Champ. So numbers are hard to pin dwn.

But if you're sure you're correct, tell me: which CBs (at least two) are making more than Champ?

[rbackfactory80]

That doesn't make sense ... the franchise tag averages the top 5 salaries at the position. If the top 5 average is more than Champ makes, then Champ is not the highest paid CB ... and the Seattle paper said yesterday that Trufant's new deal was #4 for CBs - they listed Champ, Clements and the new Hall deal with Raiders as the top 3.

The problem is that contract numbers are near impossible to comprehend... A year ago Nate Clements signed what was called I think an "80 million dollar" contract. Well, it came out shortly threafter that very little was guaranteed, and he was in fact making less than Champ. So numbers are hard to pin dwn.

But if you're sure you're correct, tell me: which CBs (at least two) are making more than Champ?

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=127

[BroncoBuff]

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=127
That list is misleading, in fact it's downright WRONG for judging "highest paid," because it ranks the salaries by cap number only. As such, it's missing money. Lots of it. Maybe because Champ's signing bonus fell off the cap in 2007, I dunno. Last year Champ made the same $6 mil in "salary", but his cap number was #1 at the position: http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=115

See? So even though his listed "salary" is well below the others listed there (less than half of Charles Tillman for heaven's sake), he makes lots more REAL money than they do. I suppose if you really want to believe that Gary Baxter, Shawn Springs, Charles Tillman and Pacman Jones are paid more than Champ, you're free to do so, but you'll be wrong.

Doesn't anybody recall hearing a year ago that - despite the hype of Nate Clements deal - Champ was still making more? I sure do ... I recall Champ himself making the point that his deal has a lot more guaranteed money. And he restructured and backloaded for Travis Henry, Dan Graham, Simeon Rice and others. In fact, Champ might still be in the Top 10 of your USA Today list ten years after he retires. ;D


Understanding contract cycles and inflation is not rocket science (except for 24champbailey). But the NFL salary cap actually IS rocket science Knowitall

[24champ]

That list is misleading, in fact it's downright WRONG for judging "highest paid," because it ranks the salaries by cap number only. As such, it's missing money. Lots of it. Maybe because Champ's signing bonus fell off the cap in 2007, I dunno. Last year Champ made the same $6 mil in "salary", but his cap number was #1 at the position: http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=115

See? So even though his listed "salary" is well below the others listed there (less than half of Charles Tillman for heaven's sake), he makes lots more REAL money than they do. I suppose if you really want to believe that Gary Baxter, Shawn Springs, Charles Tillman and Pacman Jones are paid more than Champ, you're free to do so, but you'll be wrong.

Doesn't anybody recall hearing a year ago that - despite the hype of Nate Clements deal - Champ was still making more? I sure do ... I recall Champ himself making the point that his deal has a lot more guaranteed money. And he restructured and backloaded for Travis Henry, Dan Graham, Simeon Rice and others. In fact, Champ might still be in the Top 10 of your USA Today list ten years after he retires. ;D


Understanding contract cycles and inflation is not rocket science (except for 24champbailey). But the NFL salary cap actually IS rocket science Knowitall

Even then, the list on USATODAY link puts a dent in your original argument that Champ is way overpaid. Which he is not.

Then again we shouldn't worry about it since Champ will be tagged next year, right buff? ::)

[rbackfactory80]

That list is misleading, in fact it's downright WRONG for judging "highest paid," because it ranks the salaries by cap number only. As such, it's missing money. Lots of it. Maybe because Champ's signing bonus fell off the cap in 2007, I dunno. Last year Champ made the same $6 mil in "salary", but his cap number was #1 at the position: http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=115

See? So even though his listed "salary" is well below the others listed there (less than half of Charles Tillman for heaven's sake), he makes lots more REAL money than they do. I suppose if you really want to believe that Gary Baxter, Shawn Springs, Charles Tillman and Pacman Jones are paid more than Champ, you're free to do so, but you'll be wrong.

Doesn't anybody recall hearing a year ago that - despite the hype of Nate Clements deal - Champ was still making more? I sure do ... I recall Champ himself making the point that his deal has a lot more guaranteed money. And he restructured and backloaded for Travis Henry, Dan Graham, Simeon Rice and others. In fact, Champ might still be in the Top 10 of your USA Today list ten years after he retires. ;D


Understanding contract cycles and inflation is not rocket science (except for 24champbailey). But the NFL salary cap actually IS rocket science Knowitall

You don't know when the guys are scheduled to receive what money. Its definitely possible that Gary Baxter made more money last year then Champ. Especially with all the restructures he could have a massive payday next year. If you were to average out that list 9.5 mil, the number beantown gave as the franchise number, looks pretty good.

[BroncoBuff]

Even then, the list on USATODAY link puts a dent in your original argument that Champ is way overpaid. Which he is not.
Those lists are actually pretty cool, thanks factory. But they don't tell you how much REAL money they get ... the cap is so complicated, and money is often backloaded. I wonder what numbers they use to average top 5 for tags, cap number? Salary? Total money made divided by years? I'll PM eddie mac to come in here and clear all this up.

Then again we shouldn't worry about it since Champ will be tagged next year, right buff? ::)
Fear the tag, 24 ... FEAR IT!