Right-Wing Health Care Mythology

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Once among the most frightening and effective epithets in American political culture, “socialized medicine” seems to have lost its juju. These days, that phrase sounds awfully dated, like a song on a gramophone or a mother-in-law joke or a John Birch Society rant against fluoridated water.

Yet despite their antique quality, the old buzzwords still appear regularly in columns, press releases and speeches. Rudolph Giuliani, Mitt Romney and the rest of the Republican presidential pack run around squawking about socialism whenever anyone proposes to reform the broken health care system.

Syndicated columnist Robert Novak warns that the federally financed, state-run Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) is essentially a socialist conspiracy. So does President Bush, who has threatened to veto a modest increase in that program’s funding because he doesn’t want to “federalize health care.”

Although the red threat can still trigger an autonomic reaction among the party’s true believers, the rest of the country simply no longer twitches to that high-pitched, far-right whistle. Most polls not only show enormous majorities favoring the extension of health coverage to every child regardless of ability to pay, but substantial support for a radical change in how we pay and administer health insurance—including the possibility of a single-payer system overseen by government.

Why doesn’t the traditional propaganda work any more? Perhaps the demise of the Soviet Union and the withering of Communism in Communist China have had a delayed effect on public attitudes in this country. Both the Russians and the Chinese have turned more capitalist than the West, abandoning their former systems without substituting modern democratic protections, leading to predictably bad consequences. As unbridled capitalists, the ex-Communists are more of a threat to the health of their own societies than to us.

Most Americans may also have noticed that corporate bureaucracy and corruption, which both figure largely in the present health care system, are not preferable to government bureaucracy. The same doctors who used to wail about the dangers of Medicare have learned how unpleasant it is to deal with dozens of insurance companies, each of which is creating different rules to cut costs and deny care as often as possible. So have their patients.

This corporate model is more expensive and less efficient than the government plans that provide care in every other industrialized nation.

And most Americans may have learned by now that such systems prevail in Western countries that aren’t normally categorized as “socialist,” including the United Kingdom, Japan, Spain, Canada, Germany, France, Denmark, Norway and Sweden. All these nations manage to provide their citizens with high living standards, industrial and technological innovation, and broad political and economic freedom, even after 50 years of national health insurance in some form.

Meanwhile, the credibility of conservatives has diminished steadily.

These days they seem to have trouble achieving clarity on the meaning of their favorite clichés. For instance, the president hates federalized health care, but sponsors a Medicare prescription drug program that wastes hundreds of billions on drug companies and private insurers.

Right-wing definitions no longer seem so clear, either. When the government awards a billion dollars in sweetheart mercenary contracts to a wealthy Republican family in Michigan, that’s “private enterprise.” But when the government helps a struggling middle-class family in Maryland to send its children to the doctor, that’s creeping socialism.

The declining relevance of conservative ideology is again encouraging the politics of personal destruction. That must be why right-wing voices on the Internet, talk radio and the Fox News Channel have launched a nasty attack on the family of Graeme Frost, a 12-year-old Maryland boy who appeared in a Democratic radio commercial endorsing the SCHIP program. He and his younger sister, both victims of a terrible car accident that left the little girl with permanent brain damage, have both needed federal assistance because their parents were unable to afford private insurance.

Certain conservative bloggers and pundits, seeking to prove that the Frost family is too affluent to qualify for SCHIP assistance, have started to harass them, their neighbors and their co-workers. They have spread myths and lies about the family, their house, and the schools that their children attend. And they have made repeated telephone calls to the Frost home, demanding answers to questions about their personal finances.

It doesn’t seem to occur to any of these strict Christian moralists that the Frosts have enough trouble trying to care for their disabled daughter, or that the state of Maryland, under the SCHIP regulations, has determined that the Frost children are fully eligible for the help they obviously need.

Let us not hear again from these creeps about “family values” or “compassionate conservatism.”

Such is the devolution of conservatism in our time—from a philosophy concerned with overweening state authority to a movement that bullies children in the name of freedom.

http://www.observer.com/2007/right-wing-health-care-mythology

[epicSocialism4tw]

That article is substance-less.

Not sure why you posted it here when it is just some persons opinion and mildy-educated speculation.

That article is fraught with half-truths, wild associations, unprofessional journalistic etiquitte, and flat out laziness. Not sure how it is relevant.

[epicSocialism4tw]

There are options out there for American citizens. One just has to rattle trees to make the fruit fall out.

It has always bothered me that Americans think that health care should be free, or low cost, as if we are entitled to our health by our government. Meanwhile, we spend 30K on a car, 150K on a house, and 60k on a college education. We go to the movies, buy expensive TVs, go to ballgames, etc.

If you need assistance, exhaust YOUR resources in taking care of the problem, and when you hit the end of your means, ask for help. Your pleas will be heard, I can guarantee you that. I personally know about 40 docs (all local) who help even outside of their own practice, not to mention the help that they provide for their own patients inside their practice. Docs are generally a HUGE asset to the communities they serve. Is it fair to ask a doctor (a HIGHLY skilled professional who's time is worth quite a bit) to take less pay so that you can keep paying for your TV? Nope. I would love to see your reaction when someone asked you to do 20K worth of work for them, put them at risk of losing their career (docs do this with every patient), and smile while doing it just so that you can handle your mortgage and keep some extra dough for the fun stuff. Ridiculous.

Responsibility...something that modern Americans know very little about.

I also know that major pharma companies have drug assistance programs for people in need. FREE drugs. Yes. FREE. NO COST. I cant even begin to tell you how much money I saw saved by patients who utilize these services. Its astronomical. For example, in one order it is possible to secure half-a-million dollars worth of antibiotics in some instances. This isnt just for general meds either...there are programs for anti-rejection meds and all sorts of specialized meds.

I think that the displeasure with the health care system is borne more out of ignorance than anything else. We have an overflow of resources, so much that some of the pharma companies end up sending their benevolence stuff abroad.

If you have a question about the resources available to you, send me a PM.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

That article is substance-less.

Not sure why you posted it here when it is just some persons opinion and mildy-educated speculation.

:oyvey:

You really think stringing together a bunch of snarl words is the same thing as refuting the author's arguments?

Oh well - at least you didn't use the word "propaganda."

That article is fraught with half-truths, wild associations, unprofessional journalistic etiquitte, and flat out laziness.

If the article is "fraught" with all of these things, then you should be able to point them out (something you make no attempt to do here.)

[cutthemdown]

well first of all the article points to polls saying Americans support every child getting healthcare regardless if someone can pay. I mean if I quoted a poll that said majority of americans feel a certain way would you just take my word for it? You have a huge double standard when it comes to things like this you well poisoning straw man.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

well first of all the article points to polls saying Americans support every child getting healthcare regardless if someone can pay. I mean if I quoted a poll that said majority of americans feel a certain way would you just take my word for it? You have a huge double standard when it comes to things like this you well poisoning straw man.

You have a talent for obfuscation that would make Rush proud.

Angryllama said that the article was nothing but "personal opinion" and "mildly educated speculation" (whatever that means.)

He went on to accuse the author of "half-truths, wild associations, unprofessional journalistic etiquitte, and flat out laziness" without giving any examples.

And you think you are helping his case? :laugh:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

(CBS) <!-- sphereit start -->Americans think the U.S. health care system is in need of major repairs, according to a CBS News/New York Times poll.

Nine out of 10 say the system needs at least fundamental changes, including 36 percent who favor a complete overhaul.

Although most Americans say they are generally satisfied with the quality of their own health care, including 41 percent who say they are very satisfied, it's a different story when it comes to the cost of care.

Just one in five are very satisfied with what they pay for health care, while a majority (52 percent) are dissatisfied, including a third who are very dissatisfied.

U.S. HEALTH CARE SYSTEM NEEDS…

Minor changes
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif8%
Fundamental changes
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif54%
To be completely rebuilt
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif36%

Americans are even more critical of health care costs in the nation as whole: 59 percent are very dissatisfied with the overall cost of health care in the U.S. and another 22 percent are somewhat dissatisfied.

Most Americans believe government can play a role in fixing the health care system. Two-thirds say the federal government should guarantee that all Americans have health insurance — and a similar number says providing health insurance for all is a more serious problem than keeping health care costs down.<center><hr>http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/common/images/bug_pdf.gifRead the complete results of this CBS News/New York Times poll (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/CBSNews_polls/health_care.pdf) <hr></center> Eighty-four percent of Americans favor expanding government programs in order to give health insurance to all uninsured children.

Less than one in three, however, say the government would do a better job than private insurance companies at actually providing medical coverage. Forty-four percent said the government would be worse as a health care provider than private companies.

SHOULD GOVERNMENT GUARANTEE HEALTH INSURANCE FOR ALL?

Yes
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif64%
No
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif27%


WHICH IS MORE SERIOUS?

Providing health insurance for all
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif65%
Keeping health care costs down
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif31%

More Americans do think the government can do a better job than private companies at helping hold down health care costs.

Health care promises to be a crucial issue in the 2008 presidential campaign. In a CBS News poll conducted last month, health care tied with jobs and the economy as the second-most important issue facing the country, following the war in Iraq. It was even more important to Democratic primary voters, ranking ahead of the economy and jobs.

In the new poll, the public gives the Democrats a big edge over the Republicans on handling health care issues. Asked which party they believe will best improve the health care system, 62 percent said the Democrats, while just 19 percent said the Republicans.

PARTY THAT WOULD IMPROVE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM

Democrats
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif62%
Republicans
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif19%

However, none of the top tier of Democratic presidential candidates has yet to gain a significant national edge on the health care issue.

Six in ten Democratic voters expressed confidence in Sen. Hillary Clinton's approach to health care, but more than half of voters nationally said they're uneasy. Voters overall were also more uneasy than confident about both Sen. Barack Obama and former Sen. John Edwards on health care.

But all three Democratic presidential hopefuls rated higher than the current president on the health care issue. Only 17 percent of Americans said they were confident in President Bush's approach to health care, while 77 percent — including about half of Republicans — were uneasy.

Asked to choose which health care topics they'd like to hear the 2008 presidential candidates talk about over the next two years, 34 percent said providing coverage for the uninsured was most important, followed by 28 percent who said reducing health care costs. Eighteen percent said improving the quality of care and a similar number said improving the Medicare prescription drug benefit.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/01/opinion/polls/main2528357.shtml

[Spider]

There are options out there for American citizens. One just has to rattle trees to make the fruit fall out.

It has always bothered me that Americans think that health care should be free, or low cost, as if we are entitled to our health by our government. Meanwhile, we spend 30K on a car, 150K on a house, and 60k on a college education. We go to the movies, buy expensive TVs, go to ballgames, etc. are you suggesting that people go out and get these things cash up front ? they buy them on time payments ...... Alot of Doctors want paid right then and there ... before you go on about how people spend , you need to rail against doctors to take payments ......

If you need assistance, exhaust YOUR resources in taking care of the problem, and when you hit the end of your means, ask for help. Your pleas will be heard, I can guarantee you that. I personally know about 40 docs (all local) who help even outside of their own practice, not to mention the help that they provide for their own patients inside their practice. Docs are generally a HUGE asset to the communities they serve. Is it fair to ask a doctor (a HIGHLY skilled professional who's time is worth quite a bit) to take less pay so that you can keep paying for your TV? Nope. I would love to see your reaction when someone asked you to do 20K worth of work for them, put them at risk of losing their career (docs do this with every patient), and smile while doing it just so that you can handle your mortgage and keep some extra dough for the fun stuff. Ridiculous. you are full of **** , it may work that way in your world , but it doesnt work that way in the real world , yo uget doctors that run surgery mills , prescribe meds you dont need etc ..... I suggest you quit living in fantasy land ......

Responsibility...something that modern Americans know very little about. obviously look at the crap you spew and expect people to believe ......

I also know that major pharma companies have drug assistance programs for people in need. FREE drugs. Yes. FREE. NO COST. I cant even begin to tell you how much money I saw saved by patients who utilize these services. Its astronomical. For example, in one order it is possible to secure half-a-million dollars worth of antibiotics in some instances. This isnt just for general meds either...there are programs for anti-rejection meds and all sorts of specialized meds. then you dont know **** son , same companies sell drugs alot cheaper in Canada and other parts of the world ..... Jacked up the prices here in America after Bush passed a few laws ..............

I think that the displeasure with the health care system is borne more out of ignorance than anything else.you are the last one to stand on a soap box and preach about ingorance


We have an overflow of resources, so much that some of the pharma companies end up sending their benevolence stuff abroad.

If you have a question about the resources available to you, send me a PM.
why do it in a pm ..... if these services are available for long term healthcare , put it out here were all can see

[W*GS]

Americans think the U.S. health care system is in need of major repairs, according to a CBS News/New York Times poll.

I agree. However, what about this part:

Less than one in three, however, say the government would do a better job than private insurance companies at actually providing medical coverage. Forty-four percent said the government would be worse as a health care provider than private companies.

How do you square the above results with your implied support for a single-payer nationalized health care system, LABF?

[Rohirrim]

The problem is, we are already providing universal health care, to citizen and non-citizen alike, and will continue to do so until the day we start throwing the sick and injured out of our ERs.

[loborugger]

This is the problem with the Health Care in the US as I see it.

Greed.

I think it probably started before my lifetime and has been gradually coming about, but Health Care has become big business. And big business demands big profits. The shareholders, and it seems many hospitals are now owned by corporations, as are drug companies, dont give a damn about how many people were treated. They only give a damn about the bottom line. And the bottom lines demands that premiums are high and benefits are low.

The last great medical breakthru I can think of was Polio. Now, I am sure there have been others, but I cant think of one. I also would guess that if I couldnt sport wood that I would consider the "little blue pill" to be a great breakthru - in more than one way.

But, anyways, I digress. I remember reading about Polio in the 50s since I wasnt alive. I dont remember a ton of the facts as I learned about it in school 20 years ago. However, I seem to remember it being a big national effort with people working tirelessly. Teams worked together and shared information and in the end it was a blessing for all Americans.

Can you imagine that kind of thing happening today?

However, as I stated, I think greed is the largest problem (the fact that we dont take care of ourselves and dont even know how to take care of ourselves and want instant, magical, painless cures for whatever ails us is second). The problem is greed is an attitude. I dont know how you fix that.

However, I do believe that you cant fix greed with gov't regulation.

Further, I have a hard time believing that ANYONE that has had to deal with government at any point in their lifetime would ever want government involved in our health care. Seriously, what does gov't do well? I say nothing. Granted, if we privatized our Armed Forces and Police, we would end up with stuff like Blackwater left and right. But that doesnt mean it does it well.

Maybe its cuz I was in the Military and have since then spent about a decade working in a couple different branches of the federal govt, but this is what I think of when I think of govt... inefficient, slothlike, lacking competition, full of toadies. Govt has the complete and utter inability to fire anyone for any reason - esp if they have a minority status. How would you like to have a Govt doctor and know that the biggest reason he got hired was how he looked on an EEO form? Do you want to goto a hospital that is staffed by the same kinds of folks that work at the DMV?

It simply shocks me that people want government involved in health care - or any additional realms of our life, for that matter.

Additionally, anything govt does it does more expensively than the private sector could do. So, right now an insurance company maybe able to do operation 'A' for 5 grand. I bet that the government couldnt do the same surgery for less than 7 grand. But thats no big deal, cuz they'll just pass the savings on to you, Mr and Mrs Taxpayer.

I would say that anyone who is all fired up about government involvement in our health care oughta take a trip to a VA hospital or go out a Reservation and go to a BIA hospital. I think it might be an eye opening experience.

[Dukes]

This is the problem with the Health Care in the US as I see it.

Greed.

I think it probably started before my lifetime and has been gradually coming about, but Health Care has become big business. And big business demands big profits. The shareholders, and it seems many hospitals are now owned by corporations, as are drug companies, dont give a damn about how many people were treated. They only give a damn about the bottom line. And the bottom lines demands that premiums are high and benefits are low.

The last great medical breakthru I can think of was Polio. Now, I am sure there have been others, but I cant think of one. I also would guess that if I couldnt sport wood that I would consider the "little blue pill" to be a great breakthru - in more than one way.

But, anyways, I digress. I remember reading about Polio in the 50s since I wasnt alive. I dont remember a ton of the facts as I learned about it in school 20 years ago. However, I seem to remember it being a big national effort with people working tirelessly. Teams worked together and shared information and in the end it was a blessing for all Americans.

Can you imagine that kind of thing happening today?

However, as I stated, I think greed is the largest problem (the fact that we dont take care of ourselves and dont even know how to take care of ourselves and want instant, magical, painless cures for whatever ails us is second). The problem is greed is an attitude. I dont know how you fix that.

However, I do believe that you cant fix greed with gov't regulation.

Further, I have a hard time believing that ANYONE that has had to deal with government at any point in their lifetime would ever want government involved in our health care. Seriously, what does gov't do well? I say nothing. Granted, if we privatized our Armed Forces and Police, we would end up with stuff like Blackwater left and right. But that doesnt mean it does it well.

Maybe its cuz I was in the Military and have since then spent about a decade working in a couple different branches of the federal govt, but this is what I think of when I think of govt... inefficient, slothlike, lacking competition, full of toadies. Govt has the complete and utter inability to fire anyone for any reason - esp if they have a minority status. How would you like to have a Govt doctor and know that the biggest reason he got hired was how he looked on an EEO form? Do you want to goto a hospital that is staffed by the same kinds of folks that work at the DMV?

It simply shocks me that people want government involved in health care - or any additional realms of our life, for that matter.

Additionally, anything govt does it does more expensively than the private sector could do. So, right now an insurance company maybe able to do operation 'A' for 5 grand. I bet that the government couldnt do the same surgery for less than 7 grand. But thats no big deal, cuz they'll just pass the savings on to you, Mr and Mrs Taxpayer.

I would say that anyone who is all fired up about government involvement in our health care oughta take a trip to a VA hospital or go out a Reservation and go to a BIA hospital. I think it might be an eye opening experience.

Exactly. I agree with nearly everything you said. Especially the viewpoint you get after seeing how government healthcare is run in the military.

Another thing you have to consider is what happens when rich citizens hire good doctors for themselves? You are mistaken if you think every doctor in this nation is going to go along with this. Many will open their own private offices for those who can afford it. Then the rest of the doctors who barely passed medical school are left for everyone else.

[loborugger]

Another thing you have to consider is what happens when rich citizens hire good doctors for themselves?

You know, I hadnt even considered that angle. As folks like Clooney and Gates buy and hire all the good docs, imagine what we will be left with. Or, they will just leave the US for greener pastures.

I have already seen the results of the docs fleeing for greener pastures when I lived in El Paso. Many docs left and announced that they were leaving cuz the Mexican would come across the border, use the service, and then return back across the border and refuse to pay. My opinion was that they found that while they were only making a couple hundred thousand in El Paso, they could make a cool half a mill in a city like Atlanta. The result was (I left the town in 03) that if you had a small child and he/she needed surgery, you ended up going to Houston. Imagine a city of 800,000 without a pediatric surgeon.

You wanna talk about the haves and the have-nots? That is what this well intended plan will create (you know what they say about the best of intentions). The only way to curb this would be to require all Docs to work for the govt and outlaw private practices. Of course, that still wouldnt stop them from leaving the states for greener pastures.

[Dukes]

The only way to curb this would be to require all Docs to work for the govt and outlaw private practices.

So much for liberty and the American way of life. Mind as well move to Russia and be forced to perform surgery at gunpoint.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/US/healthcare031020_poll.html

Americans by a 2-1 margin prefer a universal health insurance program over the current employer-based system.

[Spider]

ROFL! .... the things you have to believe . first it was the death tax , something that didnt effect anyone posting here , and over half the Broncos roster , but the right wing here carried the torch to save Paris Hilton , now they want us to believe they wil make doctors work in clinics like sweat shops , and paid slave labor ....... The right claims the left hates america , but the right will be the first to claim that Government doesnt work , we are an evil socialist society with entilements ..... you ****ers have to be confused 24/7

[Spider]

it is like this ..Abu Grabass happens , the right passes it off as College pranks , we are the good guys , Gitmo , everyone deserves to be there , we dont lock people for nothing , we dont do torture ..... But yet we will take our doctors lock them up and force them to accept slave wages .... so you right wingers answer this . how come we are so benevolent to everyone else , but will lock up our own people and force them into slave wages ?

[epicSocialism4tw]

are you suggesting that people go out and get these things cash up front ? they buy them on time payments ...... Alot of Doctors want paid right then and there ... before you go on about how people spend , you need to rail against doctors to take payments ......

What I'm saying is to become as educated as possible regarding whatever procedure or treatment cycle(s) that are needed. I'm also saying to contact people who can help: churches, social workers, free clinics, etc. In most cases they have no problem pointing you in the right direction. I can think of a local doctor in every major specialty that would work with a patient in regards to expense given certain circumstances.

you are full of **** , it may work that way in your world , but it doesnt work that way in the real world , yo uget doctors that run surgery mills , prescribe meds you dont need etc ..... I suggest you quit living in fantasy land ......

This doesnt even merit a response, i'll just chalk it up to Spidergoobertude.


why do it in a pm ..... if these services are available for long term healthcare , put it out here were all can see

I would prefer that that type of counsel remain private. If someone is serious about it and needs some help, I would be glad to offer some assistance.

[cutthemdown]

If the govt wants to pay for my healthcare I don't have a problem with it. I will figure out how to make it work to may advantage. I pay for my health insurance so I am all for it. Go ahead pay for it, more money for me I say.

[cutthemdown]

what about loans from the govt to pay for healthcare emergencies that are no interest, tax deductible, or if you are able and choose can be worked of through public service. Hows that sounds comrades?

[Spider]

What I'm saying is to become as educated as possible regarding whatever procedure or treatment cycle(s) that are needed. I'm also saying to contact people who can help: churches, social workers, free clinics, etc. In most cases they have no problem pointing you in the right direction. I can think of a local doctor in every major specialty that would work with a patient in regards to expense given certain circumstances. LOL free clinics , I was wondering when you would get around to that , so you understand we already have socialized Medicine ... my point is made ....... Oh and Churches are pretty much useless except for Mormons ...... I will give the mormons credit where credit is due , they walk the walk ......



This doesnt even merit a response, i'll just chalk it up to Spidergoobertude. this comming from you ? ROFL! ...




I would prefer that that type of counsel remain private. If someone is serious about it and needs some help, I would be glad to offer some assistance.

double super secret covert stuff ...... Ok mr Rove

[Spider]

what about loans from the govt to pay for healthcare emergencies that are no interest, tax deductible, or if you are able and choose can be worked of through public service. Hows that sounds comrades?

Problem is paying it back , someone gets sick for over 6 months , they are ****ed ...

[epicSocialism4tw]

LOL free clinics , I was wondering when you would get around to that , so you understand we already have socialized Medicine ... my point is made ....... Oh and Churches are pretty much useless except for Mormons ...... I will give the mormons credit where credit is due , they walk the walk ......

Your ignorance on this topic knows no bounds.

[cutthemdown]

Problem is paying it back , someone gets sick for over 6 months , they are ****ed ...

Yeah the paying for it thing is always a problem. Maybe we can make friends with Cuba and send our poor people there to see the doctor.

[Rohirrim]

Exactly. I agree with nearly everything you said. Especially the viewpoint you get after seeing how government healthcare is run in the military.

Another thing you have to consider is what happens when rich citizens hire good doctors for themselves? You are mistaken if you think every doctor in this nation is going to go along with this. Many will open their own private offices for those who can afford it. Then the rest of the doctors who barely passed medical school are left for everyone else.

The best treatment I ever got in my life was from a Navy surgeon.

[Spider]

Your ignorance on this topic knows no bounds.

Yeah ok .......

[Spider]

Yeah the paying for it thing is always a problem. Maybe we can make friends with Cuba and send our poor people there to see the doctor.

Why do you hate America ? you dont think we can do as good as Cubans ?

[Breaker]

what about loans from the govt to pay for healthcare emergencies that are no interest, tax deductible, or if you are able and choose can be worked of through public service. Hows that sounds comrades?

Even better the lefties want your house, rent, food, clothes, and everything else necessary to life covered by people that make over 85 k a year through taxes. Better yet, in the lefty world your boss would simply send the government your check and then the government would decide how much you should get of it.

[Spider]

Even better the lefties want your house, rent, food, clothes, and everything else necessary to life covered by people that make over 85 k a year through taxes. Better yet, in the lefty world your boss would simply send the government your check and then the government would decide how much you should get of it.

Please tell me you are not allowed outside without adult supervision .......

[Breaker]

(CBS) <!-- sphereit start -->Americans think the U.S. health care system is in need of major repairs, according to a CBS News/New York Times poll.

Nine out of 10 say the system needs at least fundamental changes, including 36 percent who favor a complete overhaul.

Although most Americans say they are generally satisfied with the quality of their own health care, including 41 percent who say they are very satisfied, it's a different story when it comes to the cost of care.

Just one in five are very satisfied with what they pay for health care, while a majority (52 percent) are dissatisfied, including a third who are very dissatisfied.

U.S. HEALTH CARE SYSTEM NEEDS…

Minor changes
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif8%
Fundamental changes
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif54%
To be completely rebuilt
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif36%

Americans are even more critical of health care costs in the nation as whole: 59 percent are very dissatisfied with the overall cost of health care in the U.S. and another 22 percent are somewhat dissatisfied.

Most Americans believe government can play a role in fixing the health care system. Two-thirds say the federal government should guarantee that all Americans have health insurance — and a similar number says providing health insurance for all is a more serious problem than keeping health care costs down.<center><hr>http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/common/images/bug_pdf.gifRead the complete results of this CBS News/New York Times poll (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/CBSNews_polls/health_care.pdf) <hr></center> Eighty-four percent of Americans favor expanding government programs in order to give health insurance to all uninsured children.

Less than one in three, however, say the government would do a better job than private insurance companies at actually providing medical coverage. Forty-four percent said the government would be worse as a health care provider than private companies.

SHOULD GOVERNMENT GUARANTEE HEALTH INSURANCE FOR ALL?

Yes
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif64%
No
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif27%


WHICH IS MORE SERIOUS?

Providing health insurance for all
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif65%
Keeping health care costs down
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif31%

More Americans do think the government can do a better job than private companies at helping hold down health care costs.

Health care promises to be a crucial issue in the 2008 presidential campaign. In a CBS News poll conducted last month, health care tied with jobs and the economy as the second-most important issue facing the country, following the war in Iraq. It was even more important to Democratic primary voters, ranking ahead of the economy and jobs.

In the new poll, the public gives the Democrats a big edge over the Republicans on handling health care issues. Asked which party they believe will best improve the health care system, 62 percent said the Democrats, while just 19 percent said the Republicans.

PARTY THAT WOULD IMPROVE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM

Democrats
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Republicans
http://www.cbsnews.com/common/images/blue.gif19%

However, none of the top tier of Democratic presidential candidates has yet to gain a significant national edge on the health care issue.

Six in ten Democratic voters expressed confidence in Sen. Hillary Clinton's approach to health care, but more than half of voters nationally said they're uneasy. Voters overall were also more uneasy than confident about both Sen. Barack Obama and former Sen. John Edwards on health care.

But all three Democratic presidential hopefuls rated higher than the current president on the health care issue. Only 17 percent of Americans said they were confident in President Bush's approach to health care, while 77 percent — including about half of Republicans — were uneasy.

Asked to choose which health care topics they'd like to hear the 2008 presidential candidates talk about over the next two years, 34 percent said providing coverage for the uninsured was most important, followed by 28 percent who said reducing health care costs. Eighteen percent said improving the quality of care and a similar number said improving the Medicare prescription drug benefit.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/01/opinion/polls/main2528357.shtml

Wow you think that most people in the world are unhappy that they have to actually pay for it themselves, seems reasonable to me after all its preventing me from buying a bigger TV or taking a trip to Hawaii, but guess what just because you aren't happy paying your own way in life doesn't mean you don't have the responsibility to do it. Thats like saying I am pissed about having to pay my rent as someone who makes a damn good living so the government should go ahead and cover it for me. The key part of the story is that most Americans are happy with their health coverage, yet the don't want to pay for it, simply a sign of the times when people want something for doing nothing and don't want to have responsibility.

[Breaker]

Please tell me you are not allowed outside without adult supervision .......

Says just another lefty who loves to make wild, off the cuff assertions that are blanket statements about what conservatives and right wingers believe on an everyday basis, then gets annoyed when a conservative does the same thing to a lefty. Hypocrite party of one, hypocrite party of one.

[Spider]

Says just another lefty who loves to make wild, off the cuff assertions that are blanket statements about what conservatives and right wingers believe on an everyday basis, then gets annoyed when a conservative does the same thing to a lefty. Hypocrite party of one, hypocrite party of one.

was you in special ed ? mine are based in fact and truth , youres are out of your ass ......

[epicSocialism4tw]

was you in special ed ? mine are based in fact and truth , youres are out of your ass ......

Translation: "I dont care to learn. I'm fine with my ignorance. In fact, I'm rather proud of it!"

[Breaker]

was you in special ed ? mine are based in fact and truth , youres are out of your ass ......


Holy crap thats funny!!!

WAS you in special ed Hilarious!

Um no, I was not in special ed, evidently you had a permanent seat though!!!


Going to the LABF school again. "Mine are based in fact and truth ... blah blah blah". In your world I could make the assertion that the moon is made of cheese and then when you said no its not I could get away with it by saying its up to you to prove me wrong and since you have never been there you can't. You are becoming nearly as big of a joke as LABF, pull yourself back from the edge of the abyss.

[Spider]

Going to the LABF school again. "Mine are based in fact and truth ... blah blah blah". In your world I could make the assertion that the moon is made of cheese and then when you said no its not I could get away with it by saying its up to you to prove me wrong and since you have never been there you can't. You are becoming nearly as big of a joke as LABF, pull yourself back from the edge of the abyss. LOL you Idiot you were the one telling me if we had free healthcare everyone would quit working ... we have free healthcare and people still work ..... Class dismissed retard go sit in the corner until a cure for stupidity is found ........

[epicSocialism4tw]

LOL you Idiot you were the one telling me if we had free healthcare everyone would quit working ... we have free healthcare and people still work ..... Class dismissed retard go sit in the corner until a cure for stupidity is found ........

Is this really your argument here? REALLY?

You may as well just sit back and wait for someone better equipped to handle a debate with information and/or well-formed opinions. You can just sit back and call everyone names and whatnot while they carry your end of the argument.

[Breaker]

LOL you Idiot you were the one telling me if we had free healthcare everyone would quit working ... we have free healthcare and people still work ..... Class dismissed retard go sit in the corner until a cure for stupidity is found ........

You really are a moron huh. I said that if every expense was covered such as groceries, rent, etc was covered by the gov that people would only work as much as they wanted to or needed to for extra spending cash. If everyone had their health paid for by the government that constitutes a crises. You have to be among the most moronic individuals that have ever existed Spider, the sad thing is that out of all your fathers little swimmers you are actually the smartest and strongest, now that is scary.

[Spider]

Is this really your argument here? REALLY?

You may as well just sit back and wait for someone better equipped to handle a debate with information and/or well-formed opinions. You can just sit back and call everyone names and whatnot while they carry your end of the argument.

Pray to god for therapy to get you over me ...... there is no argument here .... but if you would like to take Breakers side . join in on the bet ...I will make it easy for you guys 3 grand a piece , I will put up 6 grand on pay pal .... you guys pony up 3 grand a piece .......care to back your mouth up son ?

[Spider]

You really are a moron huh. I said that if every expense was covered such as groceries, rent, etc was covered by the gov that people would only work as much as they wanted to or needed to for extra spending cash. If everyone had their health paid for by the government that constitutes a crises. You have to be among the most moronic individuals that have ever existed Spider, the sad thing is that out of all your fathers little swimmers you are actually the smartest and strongest, now that is scary.

you say alot of **** ....... you added rent groceries etc later ... But despite that , we have that now , low income housing , food stamps , Medicare etc ... And people are still working ..... How come ?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Pray to god for therapy to get you over me ......

Umm....what? LOL

there is no argument here

In regards to your take on the subject, you are correct. It is completely void of any semblance of an argument.

[Spider]

In regards to your take on the subject, you are correct. It is completely void of any semblance of an argument.
LOL so then since breaker cant answer the question ( we both know you cant , but it is worth a shot ) we have programs now that pay peoples rent , food bill , utilities , healthcare , how come people still work ?
Since you are Breakers butt buddy , you can answer for his stupid takes

[Spider]

tic toc .tic toc ......

[Breaker]

you say alot of **** ....... you added rent groceries etc later ... But despite that , we have that now , low income housing , food stamps , Medicare etc ... And people are still working ..... How come ?

Sorry I am actually employed, people that expect me to deliver things like briefing papers and analyze bills.

I did not add things like rent etc later and we both know it. You do know that federal assistance, also called welfare, as of 1996 is limited to five years during ones lifetime.

My argument was that if EVERYONE had these things covered then people would stop working the 40 hour weeks, that if the government gave a person 20 k a year they would stop working 40 hrs a week because time off to do what you want is more valuable than working. My other argument is that if poor people have the expectation of having these things covered fully, then I as a citizen with equal rights should not have to pay for them but instead should have the government cover those things for me as well. I mean the argument that lefties use for why social security is fair is that everyone pays and everyone benefits, so if I am going to pay for some person to have their rent covered why should I not expect the same treatment as an equal member of society.

Educate yourself and look what happened with TANF benefits in the early and mid 1990's and how it impacted the single mothers that got those benefits. They decreased the amount of time at work so that they could spend it with their kids. If this happened across the board with everyone the economy would go down the ****ter.

[Spider]

Sorry I am actually employed, people that expect me to deliver things like briefing papers and analyze bills.

I did not add things like rent etc later and we both know it. You do know that federal assistance, also called welfare, as of 1996 is limited to five years during ones lifetime.

My argument was that if EVERYONE had these things covered then people would stop working the 40 hour weeks, that if the government gave a person 20 k a year they would stop working 40 hrs a week because time off to do what you want is more valuable than working. My other argument is that if poor people have the expectation of having these things covered fully, then I as a citizen with equal rights should not have to pay for them but instead should have the government cover those things for me as well. I mean the argument that lefties use for why social security is fair is that everyone pays and everyone benefits, so if I am going to pay for some person to have their rent covered why should I not expect the same treatment as an equal member of society.

Educate yourself and look what happened with TANF benefits in the early and mid 1990's and how it impacted the single mothers that got those benefits. They decreased the amount of time at work so that they could spend it with their kids. If this happened across the board with everyone the economy would go down the ****ter.

I see so no one worked before 1996 when there was no limits on welfare . thanks for the history lesson Junior

[kappys]

I think the question is what kind of health care are people willing to pay for everyone to have?

Somehow no one seems to want to answer that question for me.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The key part of the story is that most Americans are happy with their health coverage, yet the don't want to pay for it, simply a sign of the times when people want something for doing nothing and don't want to have responsibility.

If this is what you got out of the story, then either your reading comprehension troubles are worse than I thought, or you are just the same old, intellectually dishonest right-wing straw man artist we've come to know here on the Mane.

The article doesn't say Americans "don't want to pay" for healthcare - it says that a clear majority are unhappy about the high cost of healthcare in America.

(You know - just like most Americans are unhappy about high gas prices?)

The list of frauds and felonies you have to defend in order to be a Republican and/or a Bush supporter these days just keeps getting longer everyday.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

.... Class dismissed retard go sit in the corner until a cure for stupidity is found ........

:yep:

Notice how neither Breaker nor any of the other Dubya fellators have challenged any of the key assertions in the original article?

Some examples:


This corporate model is more expensive and less efficient than the government plans that provide care in every other industrialized nation.

These days they seem to have trouble achieving clarity on the meaning of their favorite clichés. For instance, the president hates federalized health care, but sponsors a Medicare prescription drug program that wastes hundreds of billions on drug companies and private insurers.

Right-wing definitions no longer seem so clear, either. When the government awards a billion dollars in sweetheart mercenary contracts to a wealthy Republican family in Michigan, that’s “private enterprise.” But when the government helps a struggling middle-class family in Maryland to send its children to the doctor, that’s creeping socialism.

[Spider]

Right-wing definitions no longer seem so clear, either. When the government awards a billion dollars in sweetheart mercenary contracts to a wealthy Republican family in Michigan, that’s “private enterprise.” But when the government helps a struggling middle-class family in Maryland to send its children to the doctor, that’s creeping socialism.
that is an excellent point

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

U.S. Doctors Are Coming Around About Universal Health Care

<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="dclite" nowrap="nowrap">
</td> <td class="dclite" width="100%"> Fifty-nine per cent of doctors recently polled came out in favor of universal health care. They are beginning to come to terms with the hardships placed on the U.S. middle class, elderly, and poor, who are either under-insured or have no insurance at all, so they are either making due with a minimum level of health care or seeking no health care at all because they can't afford it.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/mar2008/tc20080331_551691.htm?chan=technology_technology+i ndex+page_top+stories

Now if this can come to pass at the same time we have a Democratic Congress, and a president ready to support it, then maybe something will be done.
</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Dukes]

I see LABF has yet to answer W*GS' question in post #9.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I see LABF has yet to answer W*GS' question in post #9.

I see W*GS and the other dittoheads have yet to answer this:

Although the red threat can still trigger an autonomic reaction among the party’s true believers, the rest of the country simply no longer twitches to that high-pitched, far-right whistle. Most polls not only show enormous majorities favoring the extension of health coverage to every child regardless of ability to pay, but substantial support for a radical change in how we pay and administer health insurance—including the possibility of a single-payer system overseen by government.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I see LABF has yet to answer W*GS' question in post #9.

BTW, nice job of deflecting away from this:

Fifty-nine per cent of doctors recently polled came out in favor of universal health care.

[W*GS]

Dukes, LABF will never answer a direct question posed to him. He's too much the chicken**** coward.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Says the Internet tough guy from the safety of his computer.

Why should anyone bother to answer W*GS' questions when they are nothing but rhetoric and have already been dispelled by the original article?

[W*GS]

I see you still don't understand the question I posed waaaay back at post #9.

But you've never been one to actually answer any questions. You're too much the coward. You've already been exposed as a socialist and a liar - any attempt to show some sort of intellectual ability would merely expose you as an idiot.

And no, your cheap, pathetic taunts won't work.

[kappys]

I am still curious how much health care you guys plan to pay for. Are other industrialized nations better at health care? Well it all depends on what aspects of health care you measure. For those that have money and private insurance in this country you sitll get the best health care in the world. Once again its the poor that get the short end of the stick.

However health care is a near limitless source of expense. People don't seem to understand this. Whole body MRI could be done on every person to screen for cancer at a cose that would bankrupt the country faster than the Iraq war. So the question is who pays and for how much?

As for doctors socialized medicine has been coming for a long time. Many states have malpractice caps now, thereby effectiely eliminating many lawsuits. Eventually this will come down from the federal govt to help limit the cost if there is federally funded health care. EMTALA is a law that provides for emergency care for anyone regardless of ability to pay - meaning that the ER's are overcrowded and serve and the source of primary care in the US. Resident education at county hospital serves as the basis for health care for a huge population of the uninsured.