Mike Shanahan Top Ten worst Draft Picks

[Punisher]

10.The whole 2003 Draft
1:20(20)George Foster OT Georgia
2:19(51)Terry Pierce* ILB Kansas St.
4:11(108)Quentin Griffin HB Oklahoma
4:17(114)Nick Eason DT Clemson
4:31(128)Bryant McNeal OLB Clemson
5:22(157)Ben Claxton C Ole Miss
5:23(158)Adrian Madise WR TCU
6:21(194)Aaron Hunt DE Texas Tech
7:13(227)Clint Mitchell* DE Florida
7:21(235)Ahmaad Galloway HB Alabama

9.Paul Ernster PK N. Arizona(2005 Draft)
8.Triandos Luke WR Alabama(2004 Draft)
7.Bradlee Van Pelt QB Colorado St.(2004 Draft)
6.Jerry Johnson DT Florida St.(2000 Draft)
5.Chad Plummer QB Cincinnati (1999 Draft)
4.Sam Brandon S UNLV (2002 Draft)
3.Kevin Kasper WR Iowa (2001 Draft)
2.Jarious Jackson QB Notre Dame(2000 Draft)
1.Maurice Clarett HB Ohio St.(2005 Draft)

Of course The whole top ten is my opinion..But if you have a Different one just post it down :thumbs:

[wolf754life]

oh GOD, painful, just painful, there is no way this can be defended or justified, but the homers will come out and impale themselves for him....

listen, the guy can still coach, but what does that matter if we are bringing a knife to a gun fight?

preach homerism, you guys are soooo good at it? We are listening, let me grab my orange and blue sunglasses, homer away!!!

[SoCalBronco]

I'm not sure why you are listing late rounders on this list. Listing Sam Brandon is also just absurd on its face. He was a very solid pick. I wish he didn't get injured, he was a very important piece of our pass defense the last few years.

[Will Wayfarer]

4.Sam Brandon S UNLV (2002 Draft)

You had me until this one. He was actually a good role-player in our system until his ACL popped. But you nailed the rest... ugh.

[Vegas_Bronco]

4.Sam Brandon S UNLV (2002 Draft)

WTF?

Rip on Sam Brandon again and I'll call him up to kick your....you won't speak again!

[tsiguy96]

listing late round picks is kinda silly. this should be limited to round 1-3 picks. any good players that come from after that are a commodity.

[Punisher]

I'm not sure why you are listing late rounders on this list. Listing Sam Brandon is also just absurd on its face. He was a very solid pick. I wish he didn't get injured, he was a very important piece of our pass defense the last few years.

Oh come one Sam Brandon Stank it up..Not only was he injury Prone hes tackling abilities was Above average at the most

[Punisher]

4.Sam Brandon S UNLV (2002 Draft)

WTF?

Rip on Sam Brandon again and I'll call him up to kick your....you won't speak again!

ROFL! Oh man i'm taking him off the list LMAO

[Florida_Bronco]

I'm not sure why you are listing late rounders on this list. Listing Sam Brandon is also just absurd on its face. He was a very solid pick. I wish he didn't get injured, he was a very important piece of our pass defense the last few years.

I agree. How he could put Sam Brandon on that list but not Willie Middlebrooks is just absurd.

[Punisher]

I agree. How he could put Sam Brandon on that list but not Willie Middlebrooks is just absurd.

Hes in my top 20 at number 11

[baja]

Darius Watts

[cutler_to_marshall]

Can anyone blame triandos luke for not working out either. Wasnt he some sixth rounder?

Not everyone can be Rod Smith I guess.

[Punisher]

Darius Watts

I kinda of like Darius Watts call me crazy but i I always had a feeling he was going to be a good player giving the Opportunity.

[NW Bolt Fan]

How is Ashlie Lelie not in there? Not trying to stir the pot, but Jarvis Moss, IMHO will soon be on this list. Crowder might be the real deal. Liked that guy going into the draft.

[Punisher]

How is Ashlie Lelie not in there? Not trying to stir the pot, but Jarvis Moss, IMHO will soon be on this list. Crowder might be the real deal. Liked that guy going into the draft.

Ashlie had 2 and a half Solid Seasons for us..Yea he's a sell out but not a Bad pick

[Blueflame]

Any list of the Broncos' unfortunate draft choices would be incomplete without mentioning the huge reach for Paul Toviessi in the second round... #51 overall in 2001.

[BowlenBall]

1. Marcus Nash
2. Willie Middlebrooks

But very good choice of the entire 2003 draft -- these guys should all be in their prime now, and all but two of them are out of the league, with the exception of Foster and Eason. I think the 2007 record is a direct result of this extremely poor draft....

[Jason in LA]

Adrian Madise was so great the Broncos gave him a five year contract. He was a training camp HOFer.

[epicSocialism4tw]

1. Marcus Nash

2. Willie Middlebrooks.

3. George Foster

4. Darius Watts

5. Paul Toviessi

6. Terry Pierce

7. Deltha O'Neal

8. Ashley Lelie

9. Mo Clarett - only because we took him first day

10. Lennie Friedman

[Punisher]

1. Marcus Nash

2. Willie Middlebrooks.

3. George Foster

4. Darius Watts

5. Paul Toviessi

6. Terry Pierce

7. Deltha O'NealHe had a Pro Bowl year with us remember???

8. Ashley LelieI posted my feelings on him he was solid for 2 years

9. Mo Clarett - only because we took him first dayHe just sucks at life

10. Lennie Friedman
:thumbs:

[epicSocialism4tw]

I would consider Deltha a bust because he came in, played a little, then lived the lifestyle and forgot about football...he subsequently evolved into a waste of valuable cap space and a roster spot. Plus...he has an elderly-woman-sounding first name.

Lelie was a bust because he was drafted to stick, and he never developed into anything more than an occasional contributor. His real vaule was probably more like a 3rd or 4th round pick after we saw what he can do in the NFL (not a whole lot). Not to mention that the guy just wanted the big #1 WR salary slot money and had unrealistic understanding of what he was.

[SleepingTiger]

1. Marcus Nash

2. Willie Middlebrooks.

3. George Foster

4. Darius Watts

5. Paul Toviessi

6. Terry Pierce

7. Deltha O'Neal

8. Ashley Lelie

9. Mo Clarett - only because we took him first day

10. Lennie Friedman

nice list. I don't think Lily is a bust though.

[Kaylore]

1. Marcus Nash

2. Willie Middlebrooks.

3. George Foster

4. Darius Watts

5. Paul Toviessi

6. Terry Pierce

7. Deltha O'Neal

8. Ashley Lelie

9. Mo Clarett - only because we took him first day

10. Lennie Friedman
I think this is a much better list. It is mostly early round picks - which I feel are the only kinds that you can truly grade as terrible busts - and covers the guys who really were terrible. Saying a sixth round pick is a bust doesn't work for me. For me a bust must mean a great deal of expectation (third round or higher) that doesn't work out. Virtually all late rounders don't work out.

[SoCalBronco]

1. Marcus Nash- Caught 4 passes for 76 yards as a rookie. That was the highlight of his career. Really a product of a great team (the 95-97 Vols were better than the 98 National Championship Vols) and great QB (as was the other highly touted Tennessee WR, Joey Kent). Tremendous flop.

2. Willie Middlebrooks- Perpetually injured. This is more the fault of Greek and our doctors than Willie, though. He checked out, yet Willie Roaf didn't. Very occasionally, Willie flashed some talent. I'm reminded of a preseason game at Buffalo in 2004. But it was very rare. The far more common Willie was was the one on display in New Orleans during that same year.

3. Maurice Clarett- Only a comp 3rd, but a complete bomb. On talent alone, we never knew whether MoC could hack it. I remember Khan reporting that he looked pretty rusty in the beginning of camp, but seemed to get better. Between Shanny having to talk to him 10 different times about various issues, to the Grey Goose, to calling for Tuten to be fired, he's up here. Man was I wrong on this guy.

4. Terry Pierce- I am somewhat ambivalent on this one. Shanahan fell in love with his "evil instincts" as a big time MLB for Kansas State University. But Pierce was pathetically slow and the team went out of their way to make it difficult for him to succeed. He was a prototype 2-down run thumping MLB, but we tried to make him into a SLB. He hated it from Day One and wasn't built to cover TE's in the passing game, and just was not athletic enough to play on the outside in general. While the FO made it worse, it would appear that on pure talent grounds, Terry may still belong on this list as he got an oppurtunity with Houston and a couple other clubs to play on the inside and completely washed out there, too.

5. Jeremy LeSueur- LeSueur makes the Top 5 because he was the first 3rd round pick that could not even make the roster his rookie year. He was so bad that first summer that Denver had to fabricate a back injury to put him on the IR, as we would have been the object of ridicule league-wide for cutting a 3rd rounder a few months after drafting him. He was promptly released the following year.

6. Paul Toviessi- I remember Mel Kiper saying we could have gotten him on Day 2 when we took him in the second round. He's not listed as high as a bust as others would expect because I'm not convinced that he was actually a stiff from a talent viewpoint. His career flamed out quickly because of extensive injuries, but I do recall the coaches being completely blown away by his performances in the spring of his second year, before things went quickly awry. They may or may not have been on to something with Toviessi...we will never know.

7. George Foster- A decent right tackle for a year and change, before quickly becoming a complete liability. His play flatlined and he never recovered. Foster still has legitimate NFL starting talent, he's strong, he has good feet, but he never had any fire, and his technique went to hell over time. Perhaps that Bengals game haunted him, but his level of play declined so much and so fast, that it was really unbelievable that for a short period of time, he was actually serviceable.

8. Deltha O'Neal- The ultimate Jekyll & Hyde player. Deltha was not a stiff from a talent point of view. He had some real skill. He was just about the only member of our secondary during his tenure here that had ball skills and could pick off a pass. At first, we found it annoying how hot and cold he was....and then his play took a precipitous drop as he just kept giving up big play after big play (See e.g. 2003 NE game) and his confidence finally collapsed. Shanahan yanking him completely from the corner position was rock bottom. But, again, I'm not going to put him higher on this list because he did have some real talent and made some contributions prior to his final season.

T9. Chris Cole and Travis McGriff- Cole, a 3rd round investment who could not catch a cold. McGriff had no business being in the NFL, period. He did catch a TD or two in 2000, but was the product of Spurrier's Fun N Gun and probably was drafted on the basis of Shanny's close relationship with his father, Lee McGriff. Really a terrible investment for a 3rd rounder.

T10. Darius Watts and Dorsett Davis. I didn't put Watts higher because he had some real talent. He was hard to jam on the line, and got great seperation. Nonetheless, he was still a 2nd rounder that ended up accomplishing almost nothing outside of a nice rookie year. His drops ate at him until it just destroyed him and his belief in himself completely. Dropping the wide open pass in the back of the endzone in the Oakland snow game was the beginning of the end. It just snowballed after that to really unbelievable levels. I still believe to this day that the nerve damage in his hands was never the problem. After all, it was those same hands that caught an NCAA record 91 balls as a sophomore at Marshall and 70 odd some passes as a Senior. Really a tragedy almost how this whole thing got into his head. Dorsett Davis definitely "looked the part", but never produced anything of value outside of playing on the starting goalline defense. This third rounder was easily passed by on the depth chart by borderline NFL players like Mario Fetafehi and Monsanto Pope.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Deltha O'Neal??

http://isaacsonironworks.com/images_articles/isaacson_gertrude_1989.jpg

[SleepingTiger]

1. Marcus Nash- Caught 4 passes for 76 yards as a rookie. That was the highlight of his career. Really a product of a great team (the 95-97 Vols were better than the 98 National Championship Vols) and great QB (as was the other highly touted Tennessee WR, Joey Kent). Tremendous flop.

2. Willie Middlebrooks- Perpetually injured. This is more the fault of Greek and our doctors than Willie, though. He checked out, yet Willie Roaf didn't. Very occasionally, Willie flashed some talent. I'm reminded of a preseason game at Buffalo in 2004. But it was very rare. The far more common Willie was was the one on display in New Orleans during that same year.

3. Maurice Clarett- Only a comp 3rd, but a complete bomb. On talent alone, we never knew whether MoC could hack it. I remember Khan reporting that he looked pretty rusty in the beginning of camp, but seemed to get better. Between Shanny having to talk to him 10 different times about various issues, to the Grey Goose, to calling for Tuten to be fired, he's up here. Man was I wrong on this guy.

4. Terry Pierce- I am somewhat ambivalent on this one. Shanahan fell in love with his "evil instincts" as a big time MLB for Kansas State University. But Pierce was pathetically slow and the team went out of their way to make it difficult for him to succeed. He was a prototype 2-down run thumping MLB, but we tried to make him into a SLB. He hated it from Day One and wasn't built to cover TE's in the passing game, and just was not athletic enough to play on the outside in general. While the FO made it worse, it would appear that on pure talent grounds, Terry may still belong on this list as he got an oppurtunity with Houston and a couple other clubs to play on the inside and completely washed out there, too.

5. Jeremy LeSueur- LeSueur makes the Top 5 because he was the first 3rd round pick that could not even make the roster his rookie year. He was so bad that first summer that Denver had to fabricate a back injury to put him on the IR, as we would have been the object of ridicule league-wide for cutting a 3rd rounder a few months after drafting him. He was promptly released the following year.

6. Paul Toviessi- I remember Mel Kiper saying we could have gotten him on Day 2 when we took him in the second round. He's not listed as high as a bust as others would expect because I'm not convinced that he was actually a stiff from a talent viewpoint. His career flamed out quickly because of extensive injuries, but I do recall the coaches being completely blown away by his performances in the spring of his second year, before things went quickly awry. They may or may not have been on to something with Toviessi...we will never know.

7. George Foster- A decent right tackle for a year and change, before quickly becoming a complete liability. His play flatlined and he never recovered. Foster still has legitimate NFL starting talent, he's strong, he has good feet, but he never had any fire, and his technique went to hell over time. Perhaps that Bengals game haunted him, but his level of play declined so much and so fast, that it was really unbelievable that for a short period of time, he was actually serviceable.

8. Deltha O'Neal- The ultimate Jekyll & Hyde player. Deltha was not a stiff from a talent point of view. He had some real skill. He was just about the only member of our secondary during his tenure here that had ball skills and could pick off a pass. At first, we found it annoying how hot and cold he was....and then his play took a precipitous drop as he just kept giving up big play after big play (See e.g. 2003 NE game) and his confidence finally collapsed. Shanahan yanking him completely from the corner position was rock bottom. But, again, I'm not going to put him higher on this list because he did have some real talent and made some contributions prior to his final season.

T9. Chris Cole and Travis McGriff- Cole, a 3rd round investment who could not catch a cold. McGriff had no business being in the NFL, period. He did catch a TD or two in 2000, but was the product of Spurrier's Fun N Gun and probably was drafted on the basis of Shanny's close relationship with his father, Lee McGriff. Really a terrible investment for a 3rd rounder.

T10. Darius Watts and Dorsett Davis. I didn't put Watts higher because he had some real talent. He was hard to jam on the line, and got great seperation. Nonetheless, he was still a 2nd rounder that ended up accomplishing almost nothing outside of a nice rookie year. His drops ate at him until it just destroyed him and his belief in himself completely. Dropping the wide open pass in the back of the endzone in the Oakland snow game was the beginning of the end. It just snowballed after that to really unbelievable levels. I still believe to this day that the nerve damage in his hands was never the problem. After all, it was those same hands that caught an NCAA record 91 balls as a sophomore at Marshall and 70 odd some passes as a Senior. Really a tragedy almost how this whole thing got into his head. Dorsett Davis definitely "looked the part", but never produced anything of value outside of playing on the starting goalline defense. This third rounder was easily passed by on the depth chart by borderline NFL players like Mario Fetafehi and Monsanto Pope.

Great post. Very intellectual and thought out. I would rep ya, but what is 1 rep when you already have thousands.

[wabbit]

Mike has made some mind numbing draft decisions, but these are the very worst in my humble opinion.

#1 Travis McGriff WR-AT 5'8" (and change), slow & stiff, Travis apparently wowed 'em with alcohol & naked girls...it's my only explanation for this third round, goofy, costly whim.

#2 Paul Toviessi DE-Denver traded UP to get him in the second round. Even the typically misguided draft magazines flagged this fellow as a major injury risk; "maybe worth a look as a FA, but not worth a selection".

#3 Chris Watson CB- Who?? you ask...yeah, me too. Third round '99', nuff said.

#4 Marcus Nash WR- Hey, he was Peyton Mannings' favorite target. Couldn't get open on a deserted street after midnight, much less a football field. First round.

#5 Willie Middlebrooks CB- First round. On the word of David Gibbs, this kid is the 'real deal'. You can only pray David Gibbs isn't selling you a car in the near future.

#6 Jeremy LeSueur CB/S- Third Round. Hyped as the new S-LB hybrid, Jeremy quickly proved conclusively he could play neither...separately, in tandem or as a dance number.

#7 Darius Watts- WR-Second round- A WR who couldn't catch, hey, sign me up.

#8 Marcus Cambell DT-Third Round-Another Florida fling. Feet of clay, over weight, couldn't tackle, and didn't care...damn, where's my pen.

#9 Lennie Friedman G - Second round -Kyle Shanahan sold dad on Lennie..his roommate, who, according to a local sportwriter, had all the NFL ability of a pickle. To his credit, Lennie did actually play somewhere for a few seasons.

#10 Maurice Clarett RB -Third round-Now starring on Criminal Minds...as the Perp. Refused a signing bonus, decided to collect several dollars at a time from the general public.

What makes most, if not all of these especially bad was the fact that the position they were drafted for was seriously in need...and these were only first day picks.

[epicSocialism4tw]

#9 Lennie Friedman G - Second round -Kyle Shanahan sold dad on Lennie..his roommate, who, according to a local sportwriter, had all the NFL ability of a pickle. To his credit, Lennie did actually play somewhere for a few seasons.


Last I knew, Lennie was playing in Cleveland as a backup guard, I believe.

He also spent time in Washington. I always wondered how a Duke athlete could sit on the bench for so long with the Denver Broncos offensive line.

Lennie was pretty athletic, but he's light and isnt the powerful type.

[Mr. Trout]

I wonder if the Denver FO has lists like these. They need to keep one posted in the war room for the next 5 years and get the Broncs back on the right track. Probably more of an "out of sight, out of mind" thing.

[Bronco LB 59]

He's not in the top ten, but anybody remember Cory Gilliard? The black sheep of the three-man 1997 draft class that also produced Trevor Pryce and Dan Neil.

Gilliard, the fourth round safety from Ball State, decided it was a wise idea to hold out on a team that had a Super Bowl or bust mentality entering training camp. He sat out for a week or so, and was one of the first cuts when he finally joined the team.

[Northman]

I'm not sure why you are listing late rounders on this list. Listing Sam Brandon is also just absurd on its face. He was a very solid pick. I wish he didn't get injured, he was a very important piece of our pass defense the last few years.


I agree. Brandon may not be an allstar but he is definitely a solid player. And how does Marcus Nash not even make the list?

[wolf754life]

wow, you guys are admitting these where bad picks, but its still not upsetting enough to you to care.

Whats the definition of insanity? something about doing the same things with similar results?

Shannahan won't go to individual workouts or the combine to see players in person? whats the deal guys? Why is he the head honcho of personnel?

buehler, buehler.............?

[Bronco LB 59]

#3 Chris Watson CB- Who?? you ask...yeah, me too. Third round '99', nuff said.

Watson should not be ahead of Nash or LeSueur.

He gave us an immediate shot in the arm as a rookie in the return game. Watson even returned a punt for a touchdown that year and was selected to the All-Rookie Team.

The real shame in the pick was Denver sending Watson to Buffalo in August of 2000 for a conditional fourth rounder that the Broncos never got.

One decent rookie year out of Watson beats what Nash, LeSueur, Campbell or Clarett gave Denver.

[fontaine]

It's not up in the top ten but another bad pick was trading a 4th for Ellis Johnson a DT from Atlanta. They guy was past his prime, over 30 and had been thinking about retirement.

So what does the FO do? Ofcourse trade for him! Send a fourth round pick for a guy who played limited snaps and then quit a year afterwards. So we ended up trading away a 4th for a one year loan of a backup player who made little impact at DT.

When it comes to the DL and draft, Mike Shanahan could give Matt Millen a run for stupid.

[Atlas]

you can't hold 2003 against Shanny. That was one of the worst drafts in NFL history. Catch a look at all these HOFs that were drafted that year.

# NFL Team Player Position College
1 Cincinnati Bengals Carson Palmer Quarterback USC
2 Detroit Lions Charles Rogers Wide Receiver Michigan State
3 Houston Texans Andre Johnson Wide Receiver Miami (FL)
4 New York Jets (from Chicago) Dewayne Robertson Defensive Tackle Kentucky
5 Dallas Cowboys Terence Newman Cornerback Kansas State
6 New Orleans Saints (from Arizona) Johnathan Sullivan Defensive Tackle Georgia
7 Jacksonville Jaguars [5] Byron Leftwich Quarterback Marshall
8 Carolina Panthers [5] Jordan Gross Offensive Tackle Utah
9 Minnesota Vikings [5] Kevin Williams Defensive Tackle Oklahoma State
10 Baltimore Ravens Terrell Suggs Defensive End/Linebacker Arizona State
11 Seattle Seahawks Marcus Trufant Cornerback Washington State
12 St. Louis Rams Jimmy Kennedy Defensive Tackle Penn State
13 New England Patriots (from Washington through New York Jets and Chicago) Ty Warren Defensive End Texas A&M
14 Chicago Bears (from Buffalo through New England) Michael Haynes Defensive End Penn State
15 Philadelphia Eagles (from San Diego) Jerome McDougle Defensive End Miami (FL)
16 Pittsburgh Steelers (from Kansas City) Troy Polamalu Safety USC
17 Arizona Cardinals (from Miami through New Orleans) Bryant Johnson Wide Receiver Penn State
18 Arizona Cardinals (from New Orleans) Calvin Pace Defensive End Wake Forest
19 Baltimore Ravens (from New England) Kyle Boller Quarterback California
20 Denver Broncos George Foster Offensive Tackle Georgia
21 Cleveland Browns Jeff Faine Center Notre Dame
22 Chicago Bears (from New York Jets) Rex Grossman Quarterback Florida
23 Buffalo Bills (from Atlanta) Willis McGahee Running Back Miami (FL)
24 Indianapolis Colts Dallas Clark Tight End Iowa
25 New York Giants William Joseph Defensive Tackle Miami (FL)
26 San Francisco 49ers Kwame Harris Offensive Tackle Stanford
27 Kansas City Chiefs (from Pittsburgh) Larry Johnson Running Back Penn State
28 Tennessee Titans Andre Woolfolk Cornerback Oklahoma
29 Green Bay Packers Nick Barnett Linebacker Oregon State
30 San Diego Chargers (from Philadelphia) Sammy Davis Cornerback Texas A&M
31 Oakland Raiders Nnamdi Asomugha Cornerback California
32 Oakland Raiders (from Tampa Bay) [6] Tyler Brayton Defensive End Colorado

Washington's pick went to the NY Jets for WR Laveranues Coles.
Buffalo's original pick went to New England for QB Drew Bledsoe.
Miami's pick went to New Orleans for RB Ricky Williams.
Atlanta's pick went to Buffalo for WR Peerless Price.

[edit] Round two
Pick # NFL Team Player Position College
33 Cincinnati Bengals Eric Steinbach Guard Iowa
34 Detroit Lions Boss Bailey Linebacker Georgia
35 Chicago Bears Charles Tillman Cornerback Louisiana-Lafayette
36 New England Patriots Eugene Wilson Cornerback Illinois
37 New Orleans Saints Jon Stinchcomb Offensive Tackle Georgia
38 Dallas Cowboys Al Johnson Center Wisconsin
39 Jacksonville Jaguars Rashean Mathis Cornerback Bethune-Cookman
40 Minnesota Vikings E.J. Henderson Linebacker Maryland
41 Houston Texans Bennie Joppru Tight End Michigan
42 Seattle Seahawks Ken Hamlin Safety Arkansas
43 St. Louis Rams Pisa Tinoisamoa Linebacker Hawaii
44 Washington Redskins Taylor Jacobs Wide Receiver Florida
45 New England Patriots Bethel Johnson Wide Receiver Texas A&M
46 San Diego Chargers Drayton Florence Cornerback Tuskegee
47 Kansas City Chiefs Kawika Mitchell Linebacker USF
48 Buffalo Bills Chris Kelsay Defensive End Nebraska
49 Miami Dolphins Eddie Moore Linebacker Tennessee
50 Carolina Panthers Bruce Nelson Center Iowa
51 Denver Broncos Terry Pierce Linebacker Kansas State
52 Cleveland Browns Chaun Thompson Linebacker West Texas A&M
53 New York Jets Victor Hobson Linebacker Michigan
54 Arizona Cardinals Anquan Boldin Wide Receiver Florida State
55 Atlanta Falcons Bryan Scott Safety Penn State
56 New York Giants Osi Umenyiora Defensive End Troy State
57 San Francisco 49ers Anthony Adams Defensive Tackle Penn State
58 Indianapolis Colts Mike Doss Safety Ohio State
59 Pittsburgh Steelers Alonzo Jackson Linebacker Florida State
60 Tennessee Titans Tyrone Calico Wide Receiver Middle Tennessee State
61 Philadelphia Eagles L.J. Smith Tight End Rutgers
62 San Diego Chargers Terrence Kiel Safety Texas A&M
63 Oakland Raiders Teyo Johnson Tight End Stanford
64 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Dewayne White Defensive End Louisville


[edit] Round three
Pick # NFL Team Player Position College
65 Cincinnati Bengals Kelley Washington Wide Receiver Tennessee
66 Detroit Lions Cory Redding Defensive Tackle Texas
67 Houston Texans Antwan Peek Linebacker Cincinnati
68 Chicago Bears Lance Briggs Linebacker Arizona
69 Dallas Cowboys Jason Witten Tight End Tennessee
70 Arizona Cardinals Gerald Hayes Linebacker Pittsburgh
71 Minnesota Vikings Nate Burleson Wide Receiver Nevada
72 Jacksonville Jaguars Vince Manuwai Guard Hawaii
73 Seattle Seahawks Wayne Hunter Defensive Tackle Hawaii
74 St. Louis Rams Kevin Curtis Wide Receiver Utah State
75 Houston Texans Seth Wand Offensive Tackle NW Missouri State
76 Carolina Panthers Mike Seidman Tight End UCLA
77 Baltimore Ravens Musa Smith Running Back Georgia
78 Miami Dolphins Wade Smith Tackle Memphis
79 Green Bay Packers Kenny Peterson Defensive Tackle Ohio State
80 San Diego Chargers Courtney VanBuren Tackle Arkansas-Pine Bluff
81 Washington Redskins Derrick Dockery Guard Texas
82 Carolina Panthers Ricky Manning Jr. Cornerback UCLA
83 Oakland Raiders Sam Williams Defensive End Fresno State
84 Cleveland Browns Chris Crocker Safety Marshall
85 New York Jets B.J. Askew Fullback Michigan
86 New Orleans Saints Cie Grant Linebacker Ohio State
87 Miami Dolphins Taylor Whitley Guard Texas A&M
88 Houston Texans Dave Ragone Quarterback Louisville
89 San Francisco 49ers Andrew Williams Defensive End Miami (FL)
90 Indianapolis Colts Donald Strickland Cornerback Colorado
91 New York Giants Visanthe Shiancoe Tight End Morgan State
92 Kansas City Chiefs Julian Battle Cornerback Tennessee
93 Tennessee Titans Chris Brown Running Back Colorado
94 Buffalo Bills Angelo Crowell Linebacker Virginia
95 Philadelphia Eagles Billy McMullen Wide Receiver Virginia
96 Oakland Raiders Justin Fargas Running Back USC
97 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Chris Simms Quarterback Texas

[crazyhorse]

10.The whole 2003 Draft
1:20(20)George Foster OT Georgia
2:19(51)Terry Pierce* ILB Kansas St.
4:11(108)Quentin Griffin HB Oklahoma
4:17(114)Nick Eason DT Clemson
4:31(128)Bryant McNeal OLB Clemson
5:22(157)Ben Claxton C Ole Miss
5:23(158)Adrian Madise WR TCU
6:21(194)Aaron Hunt DE Texas Tech
7:13(227)Clint Mitchell* DE Florida
7:21(235)Ahmaad Galloway HB Alabama

9.Paul Ernster PK N. Arizona(2005 Draft)
8.Triandos Luke WR Alabama(2004 Draft)
7.Bradlee Van Pelt QB Colorado St.(2004 Draft)
6.Jerry Johnson DT Florida St.(2000 Draft)
5.Chad Plummer QB Cincinnati (1999 Draft)
4.Sam Brandon S UNLV (2002 Draft)
3.Kevin Kasper WR Iowa (2001 Draft)
2.Jarious Jackson QB Notre Dame(2000 Draft)
1.Maurice Clarett HB Ohio St.(2005 Draft)

Of course The whole top ten is my opinion..But if you have a Different one just post it down :thumbs:

Troll.

You have posted this thread for no other reason than to get a rise out of people.

I love french toast.

To the butt.

[dbfan21]

I'm not sure why you are listing late rounders on this list. Listing Sam Brandon is also just absurd on its face. He was a very solid pick. I wish he didn't get injured, he was a very important piece of our pass defense the last few years.

I thought the same thing when I reads the list. I completely agree with the others, but SB was a solid pick for where we got him in the draft. I say, replace brandon with Watts. What a waste!

[Bronco Rob]

Marcus Nash..........UHG!


Maurice Clarett was a HORRID pick..........I remember thinking Darren Sproles was still on the board and we wouldn't have had to trade up get him. I knew at the time that this was a mistake but the next time I coach a team to back to back world championships I'll get to pick who I want in the draft...LOL





Shanny still da man!

[vancejohnson82]

can someone do me a favor and list busts from another team who has had similar draft positions as us over the past couple years? say maybe the Eagles or Chargers?

this isn't to prove a point or anything just to make a comparison...you can't just take our team without having a basis of comparison as to what a good success rate is...

ok, maybe this is to prove a point

[backup qb]

1. Marcus Nash- Caught 4 passes for 76 yards as a rookie. That was the highlight of his career. Really a product of a great team (the 95-97 Vols were better than the 98 National Championship Vols) and great QB (as was the other highly touted Tennessee WR, Joey Kent). Tremendous flop.

2. Willie Middlebrooks- Perpetually injured. This is more the fault of Greek and our doctors than Willie, though. He checked out, yet Willie Roaf didn't. Very occasionally, Willie flashed some talent. I'm reminded of a preseason game at Buffalo in 2004. But it was very rare. The far more common Willie was was the one on display in New Orleans during that same year.

3. Maurice Clarett- Only a comp 3rd, but a complete bomb. On talent alone, we never knew whether MoC could hack it. I remember Khan reporting that he looked pretty rusty in the beginning of camp, but seemed to get better. Between Shanny having to talk to him 10 different times about various issues, to the Grey Goose, to calling for Tuten to be fired, he's up here. Man was I wrong on this guy.

4. Terry Pierce- I am somewhat ambivalent on this one. Shanahan fell in love with his "evil instincts" as a big time MLB for Kansas State University. But Pierce was pathetically slow and the team went out of their way to make it difficult for him to succeed. He was a prototype 2-down run thumping MLB, but we tried to make him into a SLB. He hated it from Day One and wasn't built to cover TE's in the passing game, and just was not athletic enough to play on the outside in general. While the FO made it worse, it would appear that on pure talent grounds, Terry may still belong on this list as he got an oppurtunity with Houston and a couple other clubs to play on the inside and completely washed out there, too.

5. Jeremy LeSueur- LeSueur makes the Top 5 because he was the first 3rd round pick that could not even make the roster his rookie year. He was so bad that first summer that Denver had to fabricate a back injury to put him on the IR, as we would have been the object of ridicule league-wide for cutting a 3rd rounder a few months after drafting him. He was promptly released the following year.

6. Paul Toviessi- I remember Mel Kiper saying we could have gotten him on Day 2 when we took him in the second round. He's not listed as high as a bust as others would expect because I'm not convinced that he was actually a stiff from a talent viewpoint. His career flamed out quickly because of extensive injuries, but I do recall the coaches being completely blown away by his performances in the spring of his second year, before things went quickly awry. They may or may not have been on to something with Toviessi...we will never know.

7. George Foster- A decent right tackle for a year and change, before quickly becoming a complete liability. His play flatlined and he never recovered. Foster still has legitimate NFL starting talent, he's strong, he has good feet, but he never had any fire, and his technique went to hell over time. Perhaps that Bengals game haunted him, but his level of play declined so much and so fast, that it was really unbelievable that for a short period of time, he was actually serviceable.

8. Deltha O'Neal- The ultimate Jekyll & Hyde player. Deltha was not a stiff from a talent point of view. He had some real skill. He was just about the only member of our secondary during his tenure here that had ball skills and could pick off a pass. At first, we found it annoying how hot and cold he was....and then his play took a precipitous drop as he just kept giving up big play after big play (See e.g. 2003 NE game) and his confidence finally collapsed. Shanahan yanking him completely from the corner position was rock bottom. But, again, I'm not going to put him higher on this list because he did have some real talent and made some contributions prior to his final season.

T9. Chris Cole and Travis McGriff- Cole, a 3rd round investment who could not catch a cold. McGriff had no business being in the NFL, period. He did catch a TD or two in 2000, but was the product of Spurrier's Fun N Gun and probably was drafted on the basis of Shanny's close relationship with his father, Lee McGriff. Really a terrible investment for a 3rd rounder.

T10. Darius Watts and Dorsett Davis. I didn't put Watts higher because he had some real talent. He was hard to jam on the line, and got great seperation. Nonetheless, he was still a 2nd rounder that ended up accomplishing almost nothing outside of a nice rookie year. His drops ate at him until it just destroyed him and his belief in himself completely. Dropping the wide open pass in the back of the endzone in the Oakland snow game was the beginning of the end. It just snowballed after that to really unbelievable levels. I still believe to this day that the nerve damage in his hands was never the problem. After all, it was those same hands that caught an NCAA record 91 balls as a sophomore at Marshall and 70 odd some passes as a Senior. Really a tragedy almost how this whole thing got into his head. Dorsett Davis definitely "looked the part", but never produced anything of value outside of playing on the starting goalline defense. This third rounder was easily passed by on the depth chart by borderline NFL players like Mario Fetafehi and Monsanto Pope.

Pretty good list. I was going to scream Dorsett Davis but you beat me to it. I think Nick Harris has to be on the list as well. You don't draft a punter in the 4th round and not expect him to be on your team for 10 years.

[backup qb]

can someone do me a favor and list busts from another team who has had similar draft positions as us over the past couple years? say maybe the Eagles or Chargers?

this isn't to prove a point or anything just to make a comparison...you can't just take our team without having a basis of comparison as to what a good success rate is...

ok, maybe this is to prove a point

The sporting news draft guide lists all teams last 5 drafts and indicates how many players from each team's draft were studs, starters, backups and out of the NFL. It is probably the best thing about the publication cuz the rest of it sucks. They then provide a letter grade on the team's last 5 drafts overall

[cmhargrove]

you can't hold 2003 against Shanny. That was one of the worst drafts in NFL history. Catch a look at all these HOFs that were drafted that year.

# NFL Team Player Position College
1 Cincinnati Bengals Carson Palmer Quarterback USC
2 Detroit Lions Charles Rogers Wide Receiver Michigan State
3 Houston Texans Andre Johnson Wide Receiver Miami (FL)
4 New York Jets (from Chicago) Dewayne Robertson Defensive Tackle Kentucky
5 Dallas Cowboys Terence Newman Cornerback Kansas State
6 New Orleans Saints (from Arizona) Johnathan Sullivan Defensive Tackle Georgia
7 Jacksonville Jaguars [5] Byron Leftwich Quarterback Marshall
8 Carolina Panthers [5] Jordan Gross Offensive Tackle Utah
9 Minnesota Vikings [5] Kevin Williams Defensive Tackle Oklahoma State
10 Baltimore Ravens Terrell Suggs Defensive End/Linebacker Arizona State
11 Seattle Seahawks Marcus Trufant Cornerback Washington State
12 St. Louis Rams Jimmy Kennedy Defensive Tackle Penn State
13 New England Patriots (from Washington through New York Jets and Chicago) Ty Warren Defensive End Texas A&M
14 Chicago Bears (from Buffalo through New England) Michael Haynes Defensive End Penn State
15 Philadelphia Eagles (from San Diego) Jerome McDougle Defensive End Miami (FL)
16 Pittsburgh Steelers (from Kansas City) Troy Polamalu Safety USC
17 Arizona Cardinals (from Miami through New Orleans) Bryant Johnson Wide Receiver Penn State
18 Arizona Cardinals (from New Orleans) Calvin Pace Defensive End Wake Forest
19 Baltimore Ravens (from New England) Kyle Boller Quarterback California
20 Denver Broncos George Foster Offensive Tackle Georgia
21 Cleveland Browns Jeff Faine Center Notre Dame
22 Chicago Bears (from New York Jets) Rex Grossman Quarterback Florida
23 Buffalo Bills (from Atlanta) Willis McGahee Running Back Miami (FL)
24 Indianapolis Colts Dallas Clark Tight End Iowa
25 New York Giants William Joseph Defensive Tackle Miami (FL)
26 San Francisco 49ers Kwame Harris Offensive Tackle Stanford
27 Kansas City Chiefs (from Pittsburgh) Larry Johnson Running Back Penn State
28 Tennessee Titans Andre Woolfolk Cornerback Oklahoma
29 Green Bay Packers Nick Barnett Linebacker Oregon State
30 San Diego Chargers (from Philadelphia) Sammy Davis Cornerback Texas A&M
31 Oakland Raiders Nnamdi Asomugha Cornerback California
32 Oakland Raiders (from Tampa Bay) [6] Tyler Brayton Defensive End Colorado

Washington's pick went to the NY Jets for WR Laveranues Coles.
Buffalo's original pick went to New England for QB Drew Bledsoe.
Miami's pick went to New Orleans for RB Ricky Williams.
Atlanta's pick went to Buffalo for WR Peerless Price.

[edit] Round two
Pick # NFL Team Player Position College
33 Cincinnati Bengals Eric Steinbach Guard Iowa
34 Detroit Lions Boss Bailey Linebacker Georgia
35 Chicago Bears Charles Tillman Cornerback Louisiana-Lafayette
36 New England Patriots Eugene Wilson Cornerback Illinois
37 New Orleans Saints Jon Stinchcomb Offensive Tackle Georgia
38 Dallas Cowboys Al Johnson Center Wisconsin
39 Jacksonville Jaguars Rashean Mathis Cornerback Bethune-Cookman
40 Minnesota Vikings E.J. Henderson Linebacker Maryland
41 Houston Texans Bennie Joppru Tight End Michigan
42 Seattle Seahawks Ken Hamlin Safety Arkansas
43 St. Louis Rams Pisa Tinoisamoa Linebacker Hawaii
44 Washington Redskins Taylor Jacobs Wide Receiver Florida
45 New England Patriots Bethel Johnson Wide Receiver Texas A&M
46 San Diego Chargers Drayton Florence Cornerback Tuskegee
47 Kansas City Chiefs Kawika Mitchell Linebacker USF
48 Buffalo Bills Chris Kelsay Defensive End Nebraska
49 Miami Dolphins Eddie Moore Linebacker Tennessee
50 Carolina Panthers Bruce Nelson Center Iowa
51 Denver Broncos Terry Pierce Linebacker Kansas State
52 Cleveland Browns Chaun Thompson Linebacker West Texas A&M
53 New York Jets Victor Hobson Linebacker Michigan
54 Arizona Cardinals Anquan Boldin Wide Receiver Florida State
55 Atlanta Falcons Bryan Scott Safety Penn State
56 New York Giants Osi Umenyiora Defensive End Troy State
57 San Francisco 49ers Anthony Adams Defensive Tackle Penn State
58 Indianapolis Colts Mike Doss Safety Ohio State
59 Pittsburgh Steelers Alonzo Jackson Linebacker Florida State
60 Tennessee Titans Tyrone Calico Wide Receiver Middle Tennessee State
61 Philadelphia Eagles L.J. Smith Tight End Rutgers
62 San Diego Chargers Terrence Kiel Safety Texas A&M
63 Oakland Raiders Teyo Johnson Tight End Stanford
64 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Dewayne White Defensive End Louisville


[edit] Round three
Pick # NFL Team Player Position College
65 Cincinnati Bengals Kelley Washington Wide Receiver Tennessee
66 Detroit Lions Cory Redding Defensive Tackle Texas
67 Houston Texans Antwan Peek Linebacker Cincinnati
68 Chicago Bears Lance Briggs Linebacker Arizona
69 Dallas Cowboys Jason Witten Tight End Tennessee
70 Arizona Cardinals Gerald Hayes Linebacker Pittsburgh
71 Minnesota Vikings Nate Burleson Wide Receiver Nevada
72 Jacksonville Jaguars Vince Manuwai Guard Hawaii
73 Seattle Seahawks Wayne Hunter Defensive Tackle Hawaii
74 St. Louis Rams Kevin Curtis Wide Receiver Utah State
75 Houston Texans Seth Wand Offensive Tackle NW Missouri State
76 Carolina Panthers Mike Seidman Tight End UCLA
77 Baltimore Ravens Musa Smith Running Back Georgia
78 Miami Dolphins Wade Smith Tackle Memphis
79 Green Bay Packers Kenny Peterson Defensive Tackle Ohio State
80 San Diego Chargers Courtney VanBuren Tackle Arkansas-Pine Bluff
81 Washington Redskins Derrick Dockery Guard Texas
82 Carolina Panthers Ricky Manning Jr. Cornerback UCLA
83 Oakland Raiders Sam Williams Defensive End Fresno State
84 Cleveland Browns Chris Crocker Safety Marshall
85 New York Jets B.J. Askew Fullback Michigan
86 New Orleans Saints Cie Grant Linebacker Ohio State
87 Miami Dolphins Taylor Whitley Guard Texas A&M
88 Houston Texans Dave Ragone Quarterback Louisville
89 San Francisco 49ers Andrew Williams Defensive End Miami (FL)
90 Indianapolis Colts Donald Strickland Cornerback Colorado
91 New York Giants Visanthe Shiancoe Tight End Morgan State
92 Kansas City Chiefs Julian Battle Cornerback Tennessee
93 Tennessee Titans Chris Brown Running Back Colorado
94 Buffalo Bills Angelo Crowell Linebacker Virginia
95 Philadelphia Eagles Billy McMullen Wide Receiver Virginia
96 Oakland Raiders Justin Fargas Running Back USC
97 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Chris Simms Quarterback Texas

Hindsight is 20-20 isn't it.

Hopefully we can find some more hidden gems this year like we did in 2006. Look after our picks in the first and second. In the first round, Willis McGahee, Dallas Clark, Larry Johnson, and Nick Barnett were still on the board. In the second, there was Anquan Boldin, Osi Umenyiora, Lance Briggs, and Jason Witten.

Hopefully, we pluck a few gems like that in this year's draft!

[crazyhorse]

Deltha Oneal=Dre Bly

[bowtown]

Deltha Oneal=Dre Bly

Deltha O'Neal > Any of the Chief's CBs

[crazyhorse]

Deltha O'Neal > Any of the Chief's CBs


So you agree with me then?

[Beantown Bronco]

Pretty good list. I was going to scream Dorsett Davis but you beat me to it. I think Nick Harris has to be on the list as well. You don't draft a punter in the 4th round and not expect him to be on your team for 10 years.

No way.....the poll is looking for bad picks, not bad "cuts". The decision to cut him sure looks bad right now, but the guy clearly wasn't a bad draft pick. He's one of the best punters in the league.

[bowtown]

So you agree with me then?

So you agree with me then?

[Chris]

Maarrrrrrrrcussssssssss Naaaaaaaaaash.

[kamakazi_kal]

I kinda of like Darius Watts call me crazy but i I always had a feeling he was going to be a good player giving the Opportunity.

not with that pincer of his......crawwwwwww

[Smiling Assassin27]

2 words: Paul Toviessi

[Kaylore]

wow, you guys are admitting these where bad picks, but its still not upsetting enough to you to care.

Whats the definition of insanity? something about doing the same things with similar results?

Shannahan won't go to individual workouts or the combine to see players in person? whats the deal guys? Why is he the head honcho of personnel?

buehler, buehler.............?

You're incredibly stupid. Every team in the league has a list like this. Some are worse. The Patriots can't draft a wide receiver to save their life. The Browns are a walking catastrophe until recently. Shanahan doesn't have a monopoly on busted picks.

[SportinOne]

well, i sure am excited for NFL Draft 2008 now!!

[azbroncfan]

You're incrdibly stupid. Every team in the league has a list like this. Some are worse. The Patriots can't draft a wide receiver to save their life. The Browns are a walking catastrophe until recently. Shanahan doesn't have a monopoly on busted picks.

This sure is the truth. I bet you could break down everyteam and the same argument could be made about how their GM/coach suck at the draft. People here really only follow the Broncos. Draft is just a huge gamble with Busts and Gems.

[Peoples Champ]

I agree with all of your choices, my favorite being Maurice Clarett, when I heard he was arrested with a full aresenal of guns and bullet proof jacket, I laughed and said I cant believe we drafted that idiot

[bronco militia]

I laughed and said I cant believe we drafted that idiot

I said the same thing 1 second after I heard the pick.

IMO, the pick was the most embarrasing moment in denver broncos history

[vancejohnson82]

I said the same thing 1 second after I heard the pick.

IMO, the pick was the most embarrasing moment in denver broncos history


were u around for the San Francisco Super Bowl???

[Popps]

You're incredibly stupid. Every team in the league has a list like this. Some are worse. The Patriots can't draft a wide receiver to save their life. The Browns are a walking catastrophe until recently. Shanahan doesn't have a monopoly on busted picks.

I'd agree with that, and I've used that argument to back Shanahan in the past.

The problem I have now is, when you talk about teams like New England, all you have to do is go down their roster and see how fruitful their drafts have been.

To make the issue simpler, let's not talk about Shanahan's bad picks over the past decade. Let's make a list of his BEST picks.

Even easier, in the last decade of drafting... Shanahan has drafted...

-How many Pro Bowl players?

-How many upper echelon, impact-players?

-Solid, long-term starters?


Start to answer those questions... and you begin to realize why you can't even begin to compare our drafts to a team like New England.


Take it further, the "what have you done for me lately" question.

How many Pro Bowl players has Mike Shanahan drafted in the last five years?

I'm pretty sure the answer is: one. A guy who had a couple good seasons and was traded away. Luckily, Shanahan IS a good trade strategist, and got nice value. Still, not a great track record for a "mastermind," let alone a "genius."

[Kaylore]

I really don't care about pro-bowls. And recent history is better suggesting improvement in that area of a draft.

Dumervil could have gone to the pro-bowl with his numbers. Same with Marshall. Kuper and Myers have starting potential and those are all later-round picks. Cutler is another one that will likely be extremely productive.

And Popps, I know you think we never do anything good with defensive linemen, but we took Bertrand off the streets of Indy and made him a pro-bowler and drafted Reggie Hayward.

As for the the Patriots, they hit on their defensive linemen and tight ends. That's true. What people miss and I think you did here, is they don't have very many pro-bowl players on their roster. I'll throw the question you asked me right back at you. How many players that they've drafted have made the pro-bowl? How many have made it thay they've drafted in the last four years? They have a lot of role-players on their team that know their job and do it. Other than that, most of their big names were either drafted a long time ago or were free agents that they've signed.

[bronco militia]

were u around for the San Francisco Super Bowl???

yeah....but I saw that one coming

just my opinion, bro

[Lev Vyvanse]

2006

[NW Bolt Fan]

I really don't care about pro-bowls. And recent history is better suggesting improvement in that area of a draft.

Dumervil could have gone to the pro-bowl with his numbers. Same with Marshall. Kuper and Myers have starting potential and those are all later-round picks. Cutler is another one that will likely be extremely productive.

And Popps, I know you think we never do anything good with defensive linemen, but we took Bertrand off the streets of Indy and made him a pro-bowler and drafted Reggie Hayward.

As for the the Patriots, they hit on their defensive linemen and tight ends. That's true. What people miss and I think you did here, is they don't have very many pro-bowl players on their roster. I'll throw the question you asked me right back at you. How many players that they've drafted have made the pro-bowl? How many have made it thay they've drafted in the last four years? They have a lot of role-players on their team that know their job and do it. Other than that, most of their big names were either drafted a long time ago or were free agents that they've signed.
Tom Brady, Vince Wolfork, Tye Warren, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen, Benjamin Watson, Logan Mankins, Ellis Hobbs... Thye've drafted plenty of quality starters....

[Punisher]

Troll.

You have posted this thread for no other reason than to get a rise out of people.

I love french toast.

To the butt.

Thats the reason everyone makes threads "To get a rise out of people"..To see other people opinions and perspectives..If anything every thread should be in the butt if you want to make that Argument but thats just your Point of view ;)
"Just being Sarcastic"

[Triplelefthook]

Watson should not be ahead of Nash or LeSueur.

He gave us an immediate shot in the arm as a rookie in the return game. Watson even returned a punt for a touchdown that year and was selected to the All-Rookie Team.

The real shame in the pick was Denver sending Watson to Buffalo in August of 2000 for a conditional fourth rounder that the Broncos never got.

One decent rookie year out of Watson beats what Nash, LeSueur, Campbell or Clarett gave Denver.

1999- He also chased down Darien Gordon as he was about to return a kick for a touchdown for the Raiders- chased him all the way down the field (think Ben Watson-Champ Bailey) and pushed him out at the 3 yard line saving a touchdown. the defense made a goal line stand holding the Fade to a FG and we won the game. broke our 0-4 start, gave Griese his first win, and most importantly half way to a sweep of Choakland. i will always love the guy for that

[Florida_Bronco]

Watson should not be ahead of Nash or LeSueur.

He gave us an immediate shot in the arm as a rookie in the return game. Watson even returned a punt for a touchdown that year and was selected to the All-Rookie Team.

The real shame in the pick was Denver sending Watson to Buffalo in August of 2000 for a conditional fourth rounder that the Broncos never got.

One decent rookie year out of Watson beats what Nash, LeSueur, Campbell or Clarett gave Denver.

I gotta agree on that one. Watson was down right awesome in the 99 preseason, and although he kinda hit a slump during the regular season he was blazing fast, tall, strong and had return skills. He was a prototype cornerback that we gave up on WAY too early.

[BroncoBuff]

Next to Clarett, Paul Toviessi was the worst ... never even one practice, much less a game.

Sam Brandon was a fine player here - we could really use him right now.

BVP, Paul Ernster, Kevin Kasper and even Terry Pierce contributed some ... BVP and Kasper are still in the league.

[BroncoBuff]

The worst NON-pick he didn't make?

Mason Crosby last year ... he traded away like 4 picks for Marcus Thomas, which was fine ... but he must've known Elam was in his last season, and Crosby wasn't drafted until very late in the 6th freaking round. What a major, major 15-year contributor he would have been for us. Not just very accurate well past 50 yards, but amazing kickoff distances, too.

[SureShot]

The worst NON-pick he didn't make?

Mason Crosby last year ... he traded away like 4 picks for Marcus Thomas, which was fine ... but he must've known Elam was in his last season, and Crosby wasn't drafted until very late in the 6th freaking round. What a major, major 15-year contributor he would have been for us. Not just very accurate well past 50 yards, but amazing kickoff distances, too.


I got to check you there my Buff bretheren.

He was 11 for 20 from 50-59 yds for his career. As a senior his makes averaged 40.6 yds while his misses averaged 52.1 yds.

http://www.cubuffs.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=3845&SPID=255&DB_OEM_ID=600&ATCLID=23105&Q_SEASON=2006


EDIT: Sorry BB I misread your post as saying he wasn't accurate beyond 50.

[montrose]

Man going through this thread is depressing, although you could make a similar one for every other team in the NFL - including the Patriots. I'd imagine to make the list of worst draft picks, Day 1 guys would be the focus. Off the top of my head, I'd have to go with Nash. At least Middlebrooks was a good special teamer and O'Neal caught a pick every now and again. Nash contributed next to nothing for the Broncos and was a 1st rounder.

For me personally, the number of WR misses still jab at me to this day. Nash, Herb Haygood, Muneer Moore, Travis McGriff, Chris Cole, Adrian Madise - until Brandon Marshall we couldn't draft a mid-round WR to save our lives. If one, just one, of those guys had even come out to be adequate, it could've changed our roster strategy for years as we struggled to find a #3 and eventually a #2.

On a side note, I challenge anyone who calls Sam Brandon a bust to a fight at sunrise at the O.K. Corral. For those who may be interested, I did a mini-analysis of Brandon's importance here: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1908185#post1908185

[Kaylore]

The worst NON-pick he didn't make?

Mason Crosby last year ... he traded away like 4 picks for Marcus Thomas, which was fine ... but he must've known Elam was in his last season, and Crosby wasn't drafted until very late in the 6th freaking round. What a major, major 15-year contributor he would have been for us. Not just very accurate well past 50 yards, but amazing kickoff distances, too.

It's premature to say that is his worst pick he didn't make after one season. What if in a season we sign someone who's just as awesome and then Crosby starts to suck? I think to say any pick is the best or worst you have to wait at least three seasons for the selection to flush out before you can definitively say one way or the other.

[wabbit]

Watson should not be ahead of Nash or LeSueur.

He gave us an immediate shot in the arm as a rookie in the return game. Watson even returned a punt for a touchdown that year and was selected to the All-Rookie Team.

...


You're absolutely right, of course.

Error on my part...brain fart while pecking out the list without researching...or remembering.

Chris was an ok pick that may've become an excellent choice had the Broncos shown a little more patience.

[Kaylore]

Tom Brady, Vince Wolfork, Tye Warren, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen, Benjamin Watson, Logan Mankins, Ellis Hobbs... Thye've drafted plenty of quality starters....

You didn't even read my post, did you?

[Punisher]

The worst NON-pick he didn't make?

Mason Crosby last year ... he traded away like 4 picks for Marcus Thomas, which was fine ... but he must've known Elam was in his last season, and Crosby wasn't drafted until very late in the 6th freaking round. What a major, major 15-year contributor he would have been for us. Not just very accurate well past 50 yards, but amazing kickoff distances, too.

Damn Buff that post just messed my day up :dunk:

[gunns]

1. The 2003 draft
2. Marcus Nash
3. Paul Tovessi
4. Jamie Brown
5. Maurice Clarett
6. Dorsett Davis
7. Willie Middlebrooks
8. Travis McGriff
9. Ashley Lelie
10. Deltha O'Neal

[Popps]

I really don't care about pro-bowls. And recent history is better suggesting improvement in that area of a draft.


Well, if by recent history you mean.... one draft with POTENTIALLY a couple of players we won't have to cut, then you are correct. Marshall is looking like a nice, solid #1 receiver. Elvis is a nice, situational player. Cutler has potential, and he should considering where he was taken. He remains unproven. As for Kuper and your other mentions, we'll see.

Let's also consider that our special teams have been horrific for about 10 years. (Something largely attributed to drafts, in general.)

So again, going back 4-6 years... that's not a lot of production out of your drafts.


And Popps, I know you think we never do anything good with defensive linemen, but we took Bertrand off the streets of Indy and made him a pro-bowler and drafted Reggie Hayward. .

Berry wasn't a secret. He was thought to have some potential. He WAS a good signing, and Hayward was a nice draft pick. Too bad Shanahan couldn't get them off of our roster fast enough.



As for the the Patriots, they hit on their defensive linemen and tight ends.

And offensive linemen and quarterbacks and linebackers and secondary.

Oh, and they also kick our ass in free agency, by a mile.



How many have made it thay they've drafted in the last four years? They have a lot of role-players on their team that know their job and do it. Other than that, most of their big names were either drafted a long time ago or were free agents that they've signed.

They still drafted a huge core of their team... a highly talented core. If some of them have been there a long time, that's just yet another credit to a team that's well-managed. Once again, the fact that they are effective (and not a disaster) in free agency is a credit to them, not a problem.

We deserve somewhere between a C and a D in free agency and the draft over the past 5-7 years. New England deserves an A. No logical football fan (outside of homers on this message board) would even begin to argue that. It's silly to even try.

I've been a Shanahan guy for a long time and defended him regularly. But, there's a time when you have to stop defending failure and start getting a little angry and asking for answers.

It's as simple as dealing with the reality of the factual information in front of you, and that information is overwhelmingly negative with regards to the expectations this franchise has for itself, and the expectations of the fans.

[summerdenver]

I believe Foootball outsiders did an article on draft history of all teams and surprisingly we are one of the best teams at drafting over a long period. The reason for this is we do draft well in the first round (our only real bust was Middlebrooks due to injuries). I firmly believe that we are above average as far as scouting the players is concerned. IMHO, most of our misses are due to two reasons:
i. We take more chances than average team. I believe this is due to Shanahan's tendency to swing for the fences. I actually have no problem with that and believe we should continue to do so - only take chances on 4th round or beyond (ala Brandon, Kuiper etc)
ii. We have more injury tolerance than average team. I don't know if its because of problems with our medical staff or our willingness to take risk but this needs fixing.

[Bob]

[QUOTE=ExpatFan;1912180]1. Marcus Nash
2. Willie Middlebrooks QUOTE]

Yup -- regarding busts one has to think about investment vs return -- how many 4ths - 7th's stick with a team?

Busts should be only folks that were drafted 1-3

People like Middlebrooks, Nash are wastes -- especially when you look at who we could have picked up after them who are now stars in the NFL. If TD had not made the team -- that is hardly a horrible pick -- as no one can expect a HOF player in the 6th, or in an undrafted future HOF in Selvin Young. :homer:

[NW Bolt Fan]

You didn't even read my post, did you? Yes, I did. While the pats have added some significant positions through FA, or "old" drafts, they've also done relatively well lately.

[Inkana7]

Yes, I did. While the pats have added some significant positions through FA, or "old" drafts, they've also done relatively well lately.

Who have they drafted lately? Brandon Merriweather? Chad Jackson? That's impressive.

[azbroncfan]

Tom Brady, Vince Wolfork, Tye Warren, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen, Benjamin Watson, Logan Mankins, Ellis Hobbs... Thye've drafted plenty of quality starters....

So you pull out the best team in the league as argument. That is why they are the best. Indy and Pitt aren't too far behind but outside of that everyone is probably pretty equal as far as hits and misses.

[Punisher]

Yes, I did. While the pats have added some significant positions through FA, or "old" drafts, they've also done relatively well lately.

Why don't you just worry about your own team :thanku::ouwknow:

[Bob]

It seemed that Reeves was way worse -- except for Sharp -- cant think of any "great" picks. Anyone rember Ted Gregory in 88 -- a first round pick that never got through training camp.

That year we could have picked these folks instead of Gregory:

Draft#:29
Chris Spielman
Ht/Wt:
Position:ILB
Drafted From: Ohio State

Draft#:31
Ickey Woods
Ht/Wt:
Position:RB
Drafted From: Nevada-Las Vegas

Draft#:40
Thurman Thomas
Ht/Wt:
Position:RB
Drafted From: Oklahoma State

Draft#:50
Michael Dean Perry
Ht/Wt:
Position:DT
Drafted From: Clemson

Draft#:80
Bill Romanowski
Ht/Wt:
Position:OLB
Drafted From: Boston College

[TheChamp24]

Berry wasn't a secret. He was thought to have some potential. He WAS a good signing, and Hayward was a nice draft pick. Too bad Shanahan couldn't get them off of our roster fast enough.

Would you have liked Shanny to dish out the money to keep them? What have they become, now, at this very moment? Average DE's, thats what.


And offensive linemen and quarterbacks and linebackers and secondary.

Oh, and they also kick our ass in free agency, by a mile.

In regards to the Pats drafting. QBs? They hit with 1 freakin QB, and suddenly they are experts in QB drafting?
And LB's? Name me 1 LB they still have on their roster that they picked in the last decade. I'll go ahead and let you know, there is none.
OL and secondary, yes, but I'd say secondary is more so for how good the front 7 is at getting pressure.




They still drafted a huge core of their team... a highly talented core. If some of them have been there a long time, that's just yet another credit to a team that's well-managed. Once again, the fact that they are effective (and not a disaster) in free agency is a credit to them, not a problem.

We deserve somewhere between a C and a D in free agency and the draft over the past 5-7 years. New England deserves an A. No logical football fan (outside of homers on this message board) would even begin to argue that. It's silly to even try.

This is true though, as most of the starters are from the draft. However, looking at some of their drafts, its not like they were the "God's of the Draft".

[NW Bolt Fan]

Who have they drafted lately? Brandon Merriweather? Chad Jackson? That's impressive. It's probabaly a bit early to assess last year's picks. They make mistakes too. Maroney, Gostikowski, Mankins, Hobbs, Kazcur come from one of the last 3 drafts...

Chad Jackson was basically out of the loop last year. If that remains the case, then he's a bust, but time will tell.

[Punisher]

It seemed that Reeves was way worse -- except for Sharp -- cant think of any "great" picks. Anyone rember Ted Gregory in 88 -- a first round pick that never got through training camp.

That year we could have picked these folks instead of Gregory:

Draft#:29
Chris Spielman
Ht/Wt:
Position:ILB
Drafted From: Ohio State

Draft#:31
Ickey Woods
Ht/Wt:
Position:RB
Drafted From: Nevada-Las Vegas

Draft#:40
Thurman Thomas
Ht/Wt:
Position:RB
Drafted From: Oklahoma State

Draft#:50
Michael Dean Perry
Ht/Wt:
Position:DT
Drafted From: Clemson

Draft#:80
Bill Romanowski
Ht/Wt:
Position:OLB
Drafted From: Boston College

A 1st round pick that didn't make it through training camp damn...Thats a pucked up pick

[NW Bolt Fan]

Why don't you just worry about your own team :thanku::ouwknow:
I didn't bring the pats up... Bolts have done excellent in the last several years of the draft. You'd rather I bring that up?

[Punisher]

I didn't bring the pats up... Bolts have done excellent in the last several years of the draft. You'd rather I bring that up?

In it got the Bolts where??? :-*

[Inkana7]

I didn't bring the pats up... Bolts have done excellent in the last several years of the draft. You'd rather I bring that up?

What? 14-2 and a divisional round exit? Is that what I hear?

[Punisher]

What? 14-2 and a divisional round exit? Is that what I hear?

I think i hear the same thing ^5 :kiss: :chargstin

[Vegas_Bronco]

Shannahan has never had a bad pick. The people he chose just went bad...all Shanny has to do is pick up the foneco and players cry...yes, YES, YEEEEESSSSSS!

[Punisher]

Hey Foneco is banned from the website :)

[BroncoBuff]

Berry wasn't a secret. He was thought to have some potential. He WAS a good signing, and Hayward was a nice draft pick. Too bad Shanahan couldn't get them off of our roster fast enough.
There's a lotta truth in that sarcasm ... especially when you look at the contracts DEs like Kerney are getting just a couple years later. Time marches on ... and the cap marches up. It would have been very forward-thinking for Shanny to have matched the Berry and Hayward contracts. They're both cheap by today's standards ...

[Popps]

Would you have liked Shanny to dish out the money to keep them? What have they become, now, at this very moment? Average DE's, thats what.
.

Both went on to productive seasons after we let them go. Berry had some injuries, Hayward was part of a very productive Jags line.

Point is, you don't have a crystal ball. Shanahan clearly doesn't. When you find yourself with dominant or even productive defensive linemen, you do whatever you have to do to keep them. Shanahan couldn't get rid of these guys fast enough.


In regards to the Pats drafting. QBs? They hit with 1 freakin QB, and suddenly they are experts in QB drafting?.

Yea, you may remember that their last starting QB played in 3 Pro Bowls and took them to a Superbowl. Their current QB is widely thought of as one of the best (if not THE best) in the league. I'd say they've done fine at QB.

Point being, if people want to make comments like "they only draft good defensive linemen and tight ends"... I'm going to straighten the situation out by providing factual information, not opinion.


And LB's? Name me 1 LB they still have on their roster that they picked in the last decade. I'll go ahead and let you know, there is none.
.

Oh, I see... so since Bruschi was drafted a long time ago and kept around, that somehow makes him not worth mentioning? The guy who's been a perennial performer on a multi-SB winning team?

Oh, we can't include Vrabel either, since they didn't draft him... right?

You're right, those dummies were so stupid, they locked up their top performing team leaders.

If they would have only been smart enough to draft Terry Pierce and Ian Gold.

W
This is true though, as most of the starters are from the draft. However, looking at some of their drafts, its not like they were the "God's of the Draft".

I never said they were.

I just said they were a lot better than us, which is true.

I also said they kick our ass around the block for drill when it comes to picking free agents. (And locking them up.)

That's also true.

This is the problem you run into when you try to debunk factual information with your opinion. You're allowed to have your opinion. You can't change factual information.

[Popps]

There's a lotta truth in that sarcasm ... especially when you look at the contracts DEs like Kerney are getting just a couple years later. Time marches on ... and the cap marches up. It would have been very forward-thinking for Shanny to have matched the Berry and Hayward contracts. They're both cheap by today's standards ...

You should have heard the Piggy-bank crowd around here when Kerney signed in Seattle. They were so thrilled we didn't "waste" money on a guy who went on to be among their most productive players and a Pro Bowl starter.

Yep, we're so smart and frugal with our ****ty defensive linemen. That always comforts me when the scrubs we trot out there are being pushed around like their on rollerskates and teams are hanging 500 yards of combined offense on us.

But hey, we re-signed Engleberger. It's all good!!!

!Booya! !Booya! !Booya! !Booya! !Booya!

[Punisher]

Wow Popps just smiply Trashed jth1331

[epicSocialism4tw]

You should have heard the Piggy-bank crowd around here when Kerney signed in Seattle. They were so thrilled we didn't "waste" money on a guy who went on to be among their most productive players and a Pro Bowl starter.

Yep, we're so smart and frugal with our ****ty defensive linemen. That always comforts me when the scrubs we trot out there are being pushed around like their on rollerskates and teams are hanging 500 yards of combined offense on us.

But hey, we re-signed Engleberger. It's all good!!!

!Booya! !Booya! !Booya! !Booya! !Booya!

Bronco D line - Committed to Mediocrity

[NW Bolt Fan]

Punisher and Inkana7, I think what you hear is the sweep sweep... with more of the same looming in the future.

[Punisher]

Only time will tell Mr my team hasn't won a Super bowl fan :)

[~Crash~]

I kinda of like Darius Watts call me crazy but i I always had a feeling he was going to be a good player giving the Opportunity.

that is me I think he got some bad coaching hell I would moved him tho FS at worse.

[Bob]

There's a lotta truth in that sarcasm ... especially when you look at the contracts DEs like Kerney are getting just a couple years later. Time marches on ... and the cap marches up. It would have been very forward-thinking for Shanny to have matched the Berry and Hayward contracts. They're both cheap by today's standards ...

That's why I think we should lock in Elvis and Marshal now -- other wise we will have a hard time signing both (around the same time I believe.)

[~Crash~]

Nick Eason DT Clemson
4:31(128)Bryant McNeal OLB Clemson

are still in the leauge so...

[~Crash~]

Well, if by recent history you mean.... one draft with POTENTIALLY a couple of players we won't have to cut, then you are correct. Marshall is looking like a nice, solid #1 receiver. Elvis is a nice, situational player. Cutler has potential, and he should considering where he was taken. He remains unproven. As for Kuper and your other mentions, we'll see.

Let's also consider that our special teams have been horrific for about 10 years. (Something largely attributed to drafts, in general.)

So again, going back 4-6 years... that's not a lot of production out of your drafts.




Berry wasn't a secret. He was thought to have some potential. He WAS a good signing, and Hayward was a nice draft pick. Too bad Shanahan couldn't get them off of our roster fast enough.



And offensive linemen and quarterbacks and linebackers and secondary.

Oh, and they also kick our ass in free agency, by a mile.




They still drafted a huge core of their team... a highly talented core. If some of them have been there a long time, that's just yet another credit to a team that's well-managed. Once again, the fact that they are effective (and not a disaster) in free agency is a credit to them, not a problem.

We deserve somewhere between a C and a D in free agency and the draft over the past 5-7 years. New England deserves an A. No logical football fan (outside of homers on this message board) would even begin to argue that. It's silly to even try.

I've been a Shanahan guy for a long time and defended him regularly. But, there's a time when you have to stop defending failure and start getting a little angry and asking for answers.

It's as simple as dealing with the reality of the factual information in front of you, and that information is overwhelmingly negative with regards to the expectations this franchise has for itself, and the expectations of the fans.

Berry was a secret lol he was out of football for a year as a LB'er from indy... we signed Berry in february and most of us said camp farder....

[TheChamp24]

Both went on to productive seasons after we let them go. Berry had some injuries, Hayward was part of a very productive Jags line.

Point is, you don't have a crystal ball. Shanahan clearly doesn't. When you find yourself with dominant or even productive defensive linemen, you do whatever you have to do to keep them. Shanahan couldn't get rid of these guys fast enough.

Berry has had 1 season worth mentioning, his 14.5 sack season after he left the Broncos. Since then, in 3 seasons, he has played in only 27 games and only has 14.5 sacks in those 3 seasons.
And Reggie Hayward, the same guy who has 12 sacks in 2 seasons with the Jaguars. When he became a free agent, I did want the Broncos to resign him, and they probably should've. Even with his injuries and poor performance this past year, he should've been kept. And he actually wasn't that expensive. However, he has never been elite/great, but solid.


Yea, you may remember that their last starting QB played in 3 Pro Bowls and took them to a Superbowl. Their current QB is widely thought of as one of the best (if not THE best) in the league. I'd say they've done fine at QB.

Point being, if people want to make comments like "they only draft good defensive linemen and tight ends"... I'm going to straighten the situation out by providing factual information, not opinion.

Oh, I see... so since Bruschi was drafted a long time ago and kept around, that somehow makes him not worth mentioning? The guy who's been a perennial performer on a multi-SB winning team?

Oh, we can't include Vrabel either, since they didn't draft him... right?

You're right, those dummies were so stupid, they locked up their top performing team leaders.

If they would have only been smart enough to draft Terry Pierce and Ian Gold.

Well, I was primarily staying with the era Belichick has been involved with. So, pretty much from 2000 on, as that has been really the major motivator in the Pats success. You know, since people were sticking with recent drafts of Shanahan.

And the point you were making was the draft, so Vrabel is irrelevant in those terms because he was a free agent. I thought this is what the thread was about, the draft?
And yes, they locked up their guys, kudos to them.


I never said they were.

I just said they were a lot better than us, which is true.

I also said they kick our ass around the block for drill when it comes to picking free agents. (And locking them up.)

That's also true.

This is the problem you run into when you try to debunk factual information with your opinion. You're allowed to have your opinion. You can't change factual information.

The Pats are a better drafting team. And factual information? Like how since Belichick has become the head coach, they have not drafted a starting LB unless you count Cain? I have no idea why you are throwing out that line anyways. I wasn't trying to say the Pats suck at drafting, they are pretty solid. However, they are human and make mistakes in their picks from time to time.

[Popps]

Berry was a secret lol he was out of football for a year as a LB'er from indy... we signed Berry in february and most of us said camp farder....

Berry converted to DE while in Indy and was on our roster for a couple of years before he broke out, but he showed flashes in Indy and certainly from the time we signed him.

You're right about one thing, though... it was on our roster as a back-up that he showed most of the flashes I remember. But, he had 4 sacks as a non-starter his second season in Indy. It's not like he was invisible.

All that said, we didn't draft him. We were smart or lucky enough to sign him, then promptly kicked him to the curb as soon as he had a good season. He went on to the Pro Bowl the next year.

[~Crash~]

come on popps the guy was cut by indy ...

the guy was paid big bucks for one year of kick butt production then was hurt from then on the guy got 30 mill ... I will agree Shanahan should not be the GM but he should still have some say in the players he wants for one he does listen to the postion coaches just a little to much is why we screw up so badly at times ... I get tired of all the bobby tuner love fests but then people blame Shannie for bad RB choices lol that is silly if you get my drift ....

[Popps]

Berry has had 1 season worth mentioning, his 14.5 sack season after he left the Broncos.

Well, that's one more Pro Bowl season than anyone we've had on the DL in the last decade aside from Pryce, who I believe had his Pro Bowl season on the inside, not at DE.


Aside from that, as I said before... you don't have a crystal ball so you have no idea how Berry would have performed for us had he stayed on a line next to Pryce and opposite Hayward, presumably on a much better football team than Arizona.

The bottom line is that we let two quality performers go as opposed to spending a little money to keep them, hence keeping our D-line the wreck that it's been since the SB days.

Berry has had 1 s


Well, I was primarily staying with the era Belichick has been involved with. So, pretty much from 2000 on, as that has been really the major motivator in the Pats success. You know, since people were sticking with recent drafts of Shanahan.
.

Again, you need to check your NFL history books. The Pats had a wee-bit of success before Belichick got there. They were a playoff team in 94/96/97 and 98, including a Superbowl and had a host of Pro Bowl players... several of which played in their 2nd (96) AND 3rd Superbowls. (2001)


And yes, they locked up their guys, kudos to them.
.

Yep.

Berry has had 1 And factual information? Like how since Belichick has become the head coach, they have not drafted a starting LB unless you count Cain? .

Again, you don't have to draft your entire team. They drafted their entire OL including two stud TEs. How come you're cherry-picking the LB position? Kind of silly, considering the success they've had at the position over the years.

Like I said, they draft AND sign free agents better than we do. Hence, they're regularly more talented than we are and win, while we are annual pretenders.

Read that again, they DRAFT AND SIGN players better than we do.

It takes both to win. They do both. We do neither.



Berry has had 1
And the point you were making was the draft, so Vrabel is irrelevant in those terms because he was a free agent. I thought this is what the thread was about, the draft?


Really? So why are you moaning about Bert Berry, then? Did we draft him?
I must have missed that.




Tell you what. Get your story straight, figure out what you're talking about... regroup, and then we'll go at this again.

[Blueflame]

I didn't bring the pats up... Bolts have done excellent in the last several years of the draft. You'd rather I bring that up?

Please define "several"... going back to 2001, your team has had 3 picks in the top 5 (Tomlinson, Jammer, Eli...) When a team fairly consistently has a shot at the "cream of the crop", it's not surprising that a few of those picks actually pan out (not every one can be a Ryan Leaf, after all). 'Tis the payoff for 1-15 seasons....

Do you know just how far back one has to look for a top-10 draft pick for the Broncos? 1991... Mike Croel.

[TheChamp24]

Again, you need to check your NFL history books. The Pats had a wee-bit of success before Belichick got there. They were a playoff team in 94/96/97 and 98, including a Superbowl and had a host of Pro Bowl players... several of which played in their 2nd (96) AND 3rd Superbowls. (2001)

I know that, but its pretty hard to compare things that happened 10+ years ago to now. And I was assuming they had different people play a part in their drafting strategy from 1994/95/96 than now.

Again, you don't have to draft your entire team. They drafted their entire OL including two stud TEs. How come you're cherry-picking the LB position? Kind of silly, considering the success they've had at the position over the years.

Mainly because you said that LB is a position they draft very well, when in reality, they have hardly picked any LB's worth note. They did an amazing job in drafting their OL, and also look at how many 1st round/2nd round picks they spent on the OL. Pretty good amount I believe. As for 2 stud TE's, I do not count Daniel Graham as a stud TE, but that is my opinion.

Like I said, they draft AND sign free agents better than we do. Hence, they're regularly more talented than we are and win, while we are annual pretenders.

Read that again, they DRAFT AND SIGN players better than we do.

It takes both to win. They do both. We do neither.

In the recent years, the Broncos have been more interested in just trying to plug big bucks into their team, thinking that will make them better. What the Pats did so well, was sign guys that fit their team. They hardly ever went after the big time players until this past offseason, and it worked to perfectiong for them.


Really? So why are you moaning about Bert Berry, then? Did we draft him?
I must have missed that.

Tell you what. Get your story straight, figure out what you're talking about... regroup, and then we'll go at this again.

I never wanted to talk about Berry, but somehow he was brought up back on page 3 of this thread. Kaylore brought him up, then you talked about him, and then I talked about him, and its been back and forth.
Anyways, this whole arguement is pointless, but I bet it you are having fun with this, as I am, however, I am done with it.

[broncocalijohn]

1. Marcus Nash

2. Willie Middlebrooks.

3. George Foster

4. Darius Watts

5. Paul Toviessi

6. Terry Pierce

7. Deltha O'Neal

8. Ashley Lelie

9. Mo Clarett - only because we took him first day

10. Lennie Friedman

This is closer to a true bad draft pick. Punisher, your list was completely flawed when you put guys like Ernster (a PK) and not even Marcus Nash on the list! Him and Clarett were one of the wasted picks because they happen in the first round and couldnt we have received J. Jones instead of Clarett? Foster, I never liked from the beginning but at least he was trade bait unlike most of those guys. Only one I dont agree on is Angryllama's 8 and 7 pick. We got some production out of Lelie. He is top 10 turds I would say but not top 10 bust. Wolf, how is your response to the poll going? You and Telluride are complete morons. Defending Shanahan on staying as coach is one thing but doesnt mean we dont see at least 10 bad picks. You can make this list with any coach.

[boltaneer]

Please define "several"... going back to 2001, your team has had 3 picks in the top 5 (Tomlinson, Jammer, Eli...) When a team fairly consistently has a shot at the "cream of the crop", it's not surprising that a few of those picks actually pan out (not every one can be a Ryan Leaf, after all). 'Tis the payoff for 1-15 seasons....

Do you know just how far back one has to look for a top-10 draft pick for the Broncos? 1991... Mike Croel.

Two words: Bobby Bethard.

That's kind of the point that this thread was started with. You guys were discussing the picks of the Shanahan era. Lumping Bethard's picks with AJ Smith's tenure doesn't make sense.

Now that they're finally rebuilt after the Bethard debacle, barring a ton of injuries, I don't see AJ Smith fielding a team that's going to have the Chargers pick in the top ten for a long, long time.

AJ Smith has proven that he does not need high draft picks to find outstanding players (Cromartie, Shaun Phillips, McNeill, Gates). Shanahan is the one who needs to go out and prove that he can still draft well on a consistent basis (not just one good year - 2006).

[Popps]

I know that, but its pretty hard to compare things that happened 10+ years ago to now. And I was assuming they had different people play a part in their drafting strategy from 1994/95/96 than now.
.

Look, I only mentioned 10 years ago because you made it sound like NE's success was some sort of recent, fly-by-night event. They've been outperforming us (in a general sense) since the SB days. Oddly, we've had their number in head to head match-ups... though that doesn't count for much.

I
Mainly because you said that LB is a position they draft very well, when in reality, they have hardly picked any LB's worth note. .

Teddy Bruschi isn't "of note?" He's a Pro Bowl and multi-Superbowl player and the leader of that defense. You remember a guy named Willie McGinest?
He was O.K.. I realize he was drafted long ago, I also realize they kept him though winning a few Superbowls. Isn't their other starter on the inside a draft pick?

Point being, just because they've done very well in free agency at the position doesn't mean they haven't drafted any LBs "of note."

Willie McGinest

I do not count Daniel Graham as a stud TE, but that is my opinion

Fair enough, but drafting him as a blocking TE and Watson as a pass-catcher is pretty friggin' impressive.

I never wanted to talk about Berry, but somehow he was brought up back on page 3 of this thread. Kaylore brought him up, then you talked about him, and then I talked about him, and its been back and forth.

Actually, I made the statement that we generally locked up our better players. Someone corrected me by pointing out Berry and Hayward. Considering DE is a perennially a position of weakness, we should have kept those guys.

So, when someone presented me with factual information, I deferred to them... recognized they were correct and modified my statements. Weird, huh?


Anyways, this whole arguement is pointless, but I bet it you are having fun with this, as I am

Eh... it's not bad. I'd have more fun if we'd bring in some real play-makers on this team instead of bums like Boss Bailey.

[400HZ]

Some of those top 5 drafts sucked in San Diego, and I don't think anybody is going to brag about those. 2001 we got Brees and LT, but those were the only two good players out of that draft. 2002 was pretty much Jammer and nobody else. 2004 is really the only top 5 draft worth bragging about, but the Chargers have had outstanding drafts picking late, too...Castillo, Jackson, Sproles, and some good depth guys in 2005. Cromartie, McNeil, and some depth guys in 2006. It's ridiculous to just say that the Chargers success in the draft is a product of picking high. It's not.

[Popps]

Bronco D line - Committed to Mediocrity



http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/47/479667.jpg


Be afraid, be very afraid.

[montrose]

As much as Foster sucked, he at least had one average season and contributed some value through the Bly trade. A terrible pick nonetheless, but I felt that should at least be stated.

[Punisher]

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/47/479667.jpg


Be afraid, be very afraid.

This is ridiculously Jarvis Moss needs to step up :unamused:

[NW Bolt Fan]

Please define "several"... going back to 2001, your team has had 3 picks in the top 5 (Tomlinson, Jammer, Eli...) When a team fairly consistently has a shot at the "cream of the crop", it's not surprising that a few of those picks actually pan out (not every one can be a Ryan Leaf, after all). 'Tis the payoff for 1-15 seasons....

Do you know just how far back one has to look for a top-10 draft pick for the Broncos? 1991... Mike Croel.
Certainly a team needs to take advantage of high picks, but the entirety is what makes a draft successful. IMO. Top to bottom, our last several (more than 3) drafts have been solid.

[stugotsII]

Any list that doesn't have Clarrett #1 is null and void.

"I'm gonna git ma goose on."

[Inkana7]

Two words: Bobby Bethard.

That's kind of the point that this thread was started with. You guys were discussing the picks of the Shanahan era. Lumping Bethard's picks with AJ Smith's tenure doesn't make sense.

Now that they're finally rebuilt after the Bethard debacle, barring a ton of injuries, I don't see AJ Smith fielding a team that's going to have the Chargers pick in the top ten for a long, long time.

AJ Smith has proven that he does not need high draft picks to find outstanding players (Cromartie, Shaun Phillips, McNeill, Gates). Shanahan is the one who needs to go out and prove that he can still draft well on a consistent basis (not just one good year - 2006).

Cromartie was a 1st Rounder and McNeill a 2nd rounder. And it's not like Phillips was some 7th round gem either, he was picked up in the 4th. Those might not be high draft picks to Chargers fans, but they are to most others. Denver hasn't picked in the top 10 since 1991, I think.

[400HZ]

Cromartie was a 1st Rounder and McNeill a 2nd rounder. And it's not like Phillips was some 7th round gem either, he was picked up in the 4th. Those might not be high draft picks to Chargers fans, but they are to most others. Denver hasn't picked in the top 10 since 1991, I think.

Cromartie and McNeil were 19th and 50th overall. Not top 10. You guys have had plenty of draft picks in that range.

[NW Bolt Fan]

AJ's entire drafts have netted more quality than trash:

2007 - San Diego Chargers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Craig Davis WR Louisiana State
2 37 Eric Weddle SAF Utah
3 96 Anthony Waters LB Clemson
4 129 Scott Chandler TE Iowa
5 172 Legedu Naanee WR Boise State
7 240 Brandon Siler LB Florida
Paul Oliver CB Georgia (4th supplemental)
2006 - San Diego Chargers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 19 Antonio Cromartie CB Florida State
2 50 Marcus McNeill T Auburn
3 81 Charlie Whitehurst QB Clemson
5 151 Tim Dobbins LB Iowa State
6 187 Jeromey Clary T Kansas State
6 188 Kurt Smith K Virginia
7 225 Chase Page DT North Carolina
7 227 Jimmy Martin C Virginia Tech
2005 - San Diego Chargers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 12 Shawne Merriman OLB Maryland
1 28 Luis Castillo DE Northwestern
2 61 Vincent Jackson WR Northern Colorado
4 130 Darren Sproles RB Kansas State
5 164 Wesley Britt T Alabama
6 177 Wes Sims G Oklahoma
7 242 Scott Mruczkowski C Bowling Green State
2004 - San Diego Chargers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 1 Eli Manning QB Mississippi
2 35 Igor Olshansky DE Oregon
3 65 Nate Kaeding K Iowa
3 66 Nick Hardwick C Purdue
4 98 Shaun Phillips LB Purdue
5 133 Dave Ball DE UCLA
5 154 Michael Turner RB Northern Illinois
6 169 Ryan Krause TE Nebraska-Omaha
7 204 Ryon Bingham DT Nebraska
7 209 Shane Olivea T Ohio State
7 254 Carlos Joseph -- Miami (Fla.)
2003 - San Diego Chargers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Sammy Davis CB Texas A&M
2 46 Drayton Florence CB Tuskegee
2 62 Terrence Kiel SS Texas A&M
3 80 Courtney Van Buren T Arkansas-Pine Bluff
4 112 Matt Wilhelm LB Ohio State
5 149 Mike Scifres P Western Illinois
6 188 Hanik Milligan DB Houston
7 229 Andrew Pinnock FB South Carolina

[Inkana7]

I see nothing of almost any worth in any of his 2nd round picks besides Wilhelm, Phillips, Turner and Scifres.

[400HZ]

I see nothing of almost any worth in any of his 2nd round picks besides Wilhelm, Phillips, Turner and Scifres.

Starting fullback Andrew Pinnock (7th). We got a few good years out of Shane Olivea as a starter (7th). The Patriots stole Wesley Britt off our PS (5th). Darren Sproles is a dynamic return man and 3rd down back (4th). Jeromey Clary is our starting right tackle (6th). Pro Bowlers Kris Dielman and Antonio Gates were udfa's. Add in Wilhelm, Phillips, Turner, and Scifres. How are the late rounds lacking in talent at all?

[NW Bolt Fan]

I see nothing of almost any worth in any of his 2nd round picks besides Wilhelm, Phillips, Turner and Scifres.
2nd day? In addition to what 400HZ said, Ryon Bingham (signed to extension) quality rotational D-lineman, Scott Mruckzowski (signed to extension) back-up OG and heir apparent to Goff, Milligan was a pro-bowler (though that was something of a fluke), Dobbins has shown some decent play...

All that coupled with last year's latter half of the draft looking like there might be a steal or two out of Naanee, Siler, and/or Oliver.

[Popps]

The Chargers have done fine in the draft over the past few years. Probably better than we have. I mean, it doesn't mean much. They have nothing to show for it. At least we cashed in on our solid years in the draft/FA. (Twice.)

The problem here is that Broncos fans shouldn't be arguing with these Chargers fans who magically appeared once the team finally had a good season or two. Broncos fans should be arguing with the front office and Mike Shanahan to figure out what the **** they plan to do to improve this team outside of signing Boss freakin' Bailey.

[summerdenver]

The Chargers have done fine in the draft over the past few years. Probably better than we have. I mean, it doesn't mean much. They have nothing to show for it. At least we cashed in on our solid years in the draft/FA. (Twice.)

The problem here is that Broncos fans shouldn't be arguing with these Chargers fans who magically appeared once the team finally had a good season or two. Broncos fans should be arguing with the front office and Mike Shanahan to figure out what the **** they plan to do to improve this team outside of signing Boss freakin' Bailey.

Good post. Drafting well ensures that you can have consistently good team but does not guanrantee a superbowl - Eagles come to my mind and for all the great drafting by their "Genius" GM chargers don't have a championship to show for it. I personally don't care if we suck for 5/6 years as long as we can win championship at the end of it.

[Punisher]

Good post. Drafting well ensures that you can have consistently good team but does not guanrantee a superbowl - Eagles come to my mind and for all the great drafting by their "Genius" GM chargers don't have a championship to show for it. I personally don't care if we suck for 5/6 years as long as we can win championship at the end of it.

Yea me too Great point :thumbsup:

[Inkana7]

2nd day? In addition to what 400HZ said, Ryon Bingham (signed to extension) quality rotational D-lineman, Scott Mruckzowski (signed to extension) back-up OG and heir apparent to Goff, Milligan was a pro-bowler (though that was something of a fluke), Dobbins has shown some decent play...

All that coupled with last year's latter half of the draft looking like there might be a steal or two out of Naanee, Siler, and/or Oliver.

If this is who you fans consider "quality" then 400HZ's comments about our 2005 draft are laughable.

[NW Bolt Fan]

The Chargers have done fine in the draft over the past few years. Probably better than we have. I mean, it doesn't mean much. They have nothing to show for it. At least we cashed in on our solid years in the draft/FA. (Twice.)

The problem here is that Broncos fans shouldn't be arguing with these Chargers fans who magically appeared once the team finally had a good season or two. Broncos fans should be arguing with the front office and Mike Shanahan to figure out what the **** they plan to do to improve this team outside of signing Boss freakin' Bailey.Rarely does a fine job in the draft a few years immediately pay dividends of a championship. As for you guys and a solid draft...^5 It was more like having one of the best, if not THE best QB in the game year after year. You didn't do anything before him, and haven't since he left.

We've had to wait for Rivers to develop. While I'm nowhere near the assumption he's as good or will be as good as Elway, I do think he possesses some of the traits, mainly leadership, and the ability to improve the play of those around you. Elway was king, and IMHO, the best QB I've ever seen play. He did more with less than Montana, Marino, and Favre.

Time will tell if he ends getting a SB title. But with only 2 years starting, he's looked good so far. Will Cutler end up being the successor so many are hoping for? Personally, I don't think he will, but you guys follow the situation closer than I do, and there's always the chance he'll have more to work with than Elway did.

[400HZ]

If this is who you fans consider "quality" then 400HZ's comments about our 2005 draft are laughable.

You guys were the ones bragging about drafting 2nd string players, not me. I listed ten starters that we got on the 2nd day, and I even forgot about Nick Hardwick.

[Popps]

Good post. Drafting well ensures that you can have consistently good team but does not guanrantee a superbowl - Eagles come to my mind and for all the great drafting by their "Genius" GM chargers don't have a championship to show for it. I personally don't care if we suck for 5/6 years as long as we can win championship at the end of it.

Agree. Though, I think the modern era of football allows for crafty teams to stay in contention through free agency, and yes... proper drafting.

Again, the problem here is... we haven't done EITHER very well over the last 5 years. We MIGHT have had one good draft here recently, but even that is still mostly to be seen. Cutler has a lot to prove still.

Funny you mentioned Philly, though.... because while they are effective in the draft, it was the year they went out and got a big-play WR in Owens that they made it to a Superbowl. Like Owens or not, the point here is that they made a move to bring in a heavy hitter and it paid dividends.

We tend to bring in mid-level and washed up players, still operating under some kind of false premise that we've got an amazing core of talent and we just need role players. Shanahan must think it's still 1997.

This team needs to hit home-runs in the draft, AND free agency.

Oddly, they've now publicly stated that they intend to play "small-ball" with regards to free agency. Great, guys. How is that different from the last 5 years? Lynch was nice. But, I must have missed those other big-name defensive players we signed in free agency.

Thank god Shanahan is a fairly savvy trader, or we'd be in the toilet.

[NW Bolt Fan]

Agree. Though, I think the modern era of football allows for crafty teams to stay in contention through free agency, and yes... proper drafting.

Again, the problem here is... we haven't done EITHER very well over the last 5 years. We MIGHT have had one good draft here recently, but even that is still mostly to be seen. Cutler has a lot to prove still.

Funny you mentioned Philly, though.... because while they are effective in the draft, it was the year they went out and got a big-play WR in Owens that they made it to a Superbowl. Like Owens or not, the point here is that they made a move to bring in a heavy hitter and it paid dividends.

We tend to bring in mid-level and washed up players, still operating under some kind of false premise that we've got an amazing core of talent and we just need role players. Shanahan must think it's still 1997.

This team needs to hit home-runs in the draft, AND free agency.

Oddly, they've now publicly stated that they intend to play "small-ball" with regards to free agency. Great, guys. How is that different from the last 5 years? Lynch was nice. But, I must have missed those other big-name defensive players we signed in free agency.

Thank god Shanahan is a fairly savvy trader, or we'd be in the toilet.
I'd say most Denver enthusiasts were excited about Travis Henry, and Daniel Graham. They were top tier players. Personally, I didn't give much consideration to the defensive line "prospects" y'all signed, but I think there are several donk fans who were like minded in this... You did go after Kerney though.

I did think highly enough of your rushing attack to take Henry in my FFL, only to fair poorly. I knew your O-line was aging and lacked quality back-ups, but I still thought Shanny could work his magic. Fool me once.

[Popps]

I'd say most Denver enthusiasts were excited about Travis Henry, and Daniel Graham. They were top tier players. e.

Henry was a lower top-tier FA, I'd say. It's not like he was coming off of a Pro Bowl. He was a guy with some injury problems (among other things) and had bounced around a little, already.

Graham was a solid free agent, but a lot of us around here were throwing our hands in the air wondering why with the defense we have, we could afford blocking tight ends but not some real talent for the defense.

I' You did go after Kerney though.



Well, we didn't land him.

Of course, it's the annual parade of excuses around here as to why, ranging form he was "too expensive" to "he just used us to drive up the price."
Those same people were saying he was a shoe-in to sign, as he had links to our coaching staff, etc.

Naturally, he went on to be arguably Seattle's MVP.

I' I knew your O-line was aging and lacked quality back-ups, but I still thought Shanny could work his magic. Fool me once.

Drafting our RBs in FF is suicide unless you draft them ALL, and even then, Shanahan will screw you at least once a season by saying one is fine to start all week, and then staring the other.

[Cito Pelon]

Agree. Though, I think the modern era of football allows for crafty teams to stay in contention through free agency, and yes... proper drafting.

Again, the problem here is... we haven't done EITHER very well over the last 5 years. We MIGHT have had one good draft here recently, but even that is still mostly to be seen. Cutler has a lot to prove still.

Funny you mentioned Philly, though.... because while they are effective in the draft, it was the year they went out and got a big-play WR in Owens that they made it to a Superbowl. Like Owens or not, the point here is that they made a move to bring in a heavy hitter and it paid dividends.

We tend to bring in mid-level and washed up players, still operating under some kind of false premise that we've got an amazing core of talent and we just need role players. Shanahan must think it's still 1997. I'm not trying to pick on your post, but I find it's hard to reply to many folks because they have such a love for Bowlen and Shanahan, like those two have actually accomplished something in the past ten years.

This team needs to hit home-runs in the draft, AND free agency.

Oddly, they've now publicly stated that they intend to play "small-ball" with regards to free agency. Great, guys. How is that different from the last 5 years? Lynch was nice. But, I must have missed those other big-name defensive players we signed in free agency.

Thank god Shanahan is a fairly savvy trader, or we'd be in the toilet.

Bowlen has f'd some things up pretty good. I say Bowlen since he's really the man in charge with Shanahan as his proxy.

For me it always comes down to Titles. How many Titles is all that counts to me. BowlenShan has produced one Title since 1998, a Div Title in 2005. That's not good enough to me, pretty pathetic actually.

I'm not trying to pick on your post, but I find it's hard to reply to many folks because they have such a love for Bowlen and Shanahan, like those two have actually accomplished something in the past ten years.

[Popps]

but I find it's hard to reply to many folks because they have such a love for Bowlen and Shanahan, like those two have actually accomplished something in the past ten years.

Well, I've been a pretty staunch Shanahan supporter over the years. But, there's a time when factual evidence piles up and you have to begin to change your stance. I'd guess Shanahan's approval rating is pretty low around here, despite those who refuse to look at the facts.

I like the guy as a game day coach, and he seems to get nice value in trades. But, whatever he knew when he built our 97/98 teams... he's forgotten. He hasn't followed his own philosophy since then.

You may recall my "Shanahan jumped the shark" thread after we fired Bates. For me, that was sort of the last straw. Not that Bates was necessarily worth keeping, but just the fact that Shanahan simply can't bring in a guy to get this defense straight, and we're now on our third coordinator in three seasons.

Yes, I understand that Bowlen let's Mike run rampant.... and that needs to end.

For me, Shanahan basically has this year to prove something. If he doesn't, I'm ready to cut ties and wish him the best of luck, very appreciative for what he's done for us.

But, so far... this off-season has been a joke. It's early, of course. We still have the draft and whatever slobs Cleveland cuts to add to our roster.

[NW Bolt Fan]

Henry was a lower top-tier FA, I'd say. It's not like he was coming off of a Pro Bowl. He was a guy with some injury problems (among other things) and had bounced around a little, already .Henry'd been solid everywhere he went, and had never had much talent around him. I still think if your line was what it'd been 3-4 years ago, he'd have gone off...

Graham was a solid free agent, but a lot of us around here were throwing our hands in the air wondering why with the defense we have, we could afford blocking tight ends but not some real talent for the defense.Agreed with Graham. He's good, but I really thought you guys should be addressing your line woes. However, I did think Graham would really open thing up on offense because of his ability to both block and catch...




Well, we didn't land him.

Of course, it's the annual parade of excuses around here as to why, ranging form he was "too expensive" to "he just used us to drive up the price."
Those same people were saying he was a shoe-in to sign, as he had links to our coaching staff, etc.

Naturally, he went on to be arguably Seattle's MVP.I was actually praying for you guys to get Kerney. I thought the guy was totally overrated in Atl. Boy was I wrong. And boy am I glad he went to the chickens.



Drafting our RBs in FF is suicide unless you draft them ALL, and even then, Shanahan will screw you at least once a season by saying one is fine to start all week, and then staring the other.Yeah, I've picked up back-ups before and hit with them every so often. Figured this time Shanny had his bell cow. I now know better. I also took Javon Walker, and thought about Marshall even after our draft was over as a FA... Needless to say, I did not fare well in FF last year.

[Cito Pelon]

Well, I've been a pretty staunch Shanahan supporter over the years. But, there's a time when factual evidence piles up and you have to begin to change your stance. I'd guess Shanahan's approval rating is pretty low around here, despite those who refuse to look at the facts.

I like the guy as a game day coach, and he seems to get nice value in trades. But, whatever he knew when he built our 97/98 teams... he's forgotten. He hasn't followed his own philosophy since then.

You may recall my "Shanahan jumped the shark" thread after we fired Bates. For me, that was sort of the last straw. Not that Bates was necessarily worth keeping, but just the fact that Shanahan simply can't bring in a guy to get this defense straight, and we're now on our third coordinator in three seasons.

Yes, I understand that Bowlen let's Mike run rampant.... and that needs to end.

For me, Shanahan basically has this year to prove something. If he doesn't, I'm ready to cut ties and wish him the best of luck, very appreciative for what he's done for us.

But, so far... this off-season has been a joke. It's early, of course. We still have the draft and whatever slobs Cleveland cuts to add to our roster.

This isn't a reply to you my friend, but a generic reply, and that is I like to see Title Banners hanging at Mile High. I've seen some people mention that Shanny would have to be a better cheater to see some more Title banners, and I have to agree. It's pretty interesting that allegations of cheating have been attacked by Shanahan and withdrawn with alacrity.

I've been hard on Shanny for not winning Titles, but in fairness the man would cut off his own toe before he cheated. I've seen a lot of cheating in the last few years, in the Olympics, Tour De France, Formula One, NASCAR, and sure in the NFL.

I've been hard on Shanny, but at this point I have to think he would have done better except for the cheating in the NFL. Right now every Title in the NFL is suspect because of the cheating. It's a shame, but there we are.

[wolf754life]

right because he didn't cheat on the cap in 97, but we just lost a third round pick instead.....................

the homers amaze!

defend him till he leaves, then defend him when he's gone, because that day is coming sooner than later friends!

he is running out of time, running out of guys to whack, he is now tony saprano, waiting for his fate, cornered with nowhere to turn!

its getting worse out there at dove valley, NOT better! glaze away homer boys!

[Cito Pelon]

right because he didn't cheat on the cap in 97, but we just lost a third round pick instead.....................

the homers amaze!

defend him till he leaves, then defend him when he's gone, because that day is coming sooner than later friends!

he is running out of time, running out of guys to whack, he is now tony saprano, waiting for his fate, cornered with nowhere to turn!

its getting worse out there at dove valley, NOT better! glaze away homer boys!

You must have key words you respond to. I'll try to key you again, puppet.