Chavez sends troops to Columbian border.

[cutthemdown]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23435878

CARACAS, Venezuela - President Hugo Chavez on Sunday ordered thousands of troops to the border with Colombia after Colombia's military killed a top rebel leader.

Chavez told his defense minister: "Move 10 battalions for me to the border with Colombia, immediately." He also ordered the Venezuelan Embassy in Colombia closed and said all embassy personnel would be withdrawn.

The announcements by Venezuela's leftist leader pushed relations to their tensest point of his nine-year presidency, and Chavez warned that Colombia could spark a war in South America.


I wonder if this has a chance to blow up into a war? That's all the price of oil needs. If it does it will be the end of Chavez IMO. Bush would love to bomb the hell out of him as a going away party.

[W*GS]

Chavez is the one doing all the saber-rattling. He desperately wants a war to distract from his mismanagement of the Venezuelan economy.

FARC is a group of criminal thugs and scumbags - and they're Chavez' buddies.

[Bronx33]

Can somebody just shoot Chavez in the face and end his miserable existence.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Can somebody just shoot Chavez in the face and end his miserable existence.You sound like Ann Coulter, if you don't like em, kill em.

[Bronx33]

point? if a rabid dog needs putting down what do ya do?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

point? if a rabid dog needs putting down what do ya do?You're comparing a K-9 with a human?

[Bronx33]

You're comparing a K-9 with a human?

With chavez is there a difference? ;D

[Bronco_Beerslug]

With chavez is there a difference? ;DI think he's an idiot but wishing death on someone isn't something I'd do ( I don't have the extra Karma for that :). People like him go away eventually one way or another.

[Bronx33]

I think he's an idiot but wishing death on someone isn't something I'd do ( I don't have the extra Karma for that :). People like him go away eventually one way or another.


Sorry i have alot of time spent on the farm and when something needs to be put down (it's not an issue) it's part of life and when douche bags like chavez earn a 12 cent nap (i don't have problem with it) and iam positive a majority of Venezuelans would agree. I feel sorry for the poor bastards in north korea stuck with that mickey mouse lovin fruit cake i wonder how many he will kill (before he goes away) is chavez any different?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Sorry i have alot of time spent on the farm and when something needs to be put down (it's not an issue) it's part of life and when douche bags like chavez earn a 12 cent nap (i don't have problem with it) and iam positive a majority of Venezuelans would agree. I feel sorry for the poor bastards in north korea stuck with that mickey mouse lovin fruit cake i wonder how many he will kill (before he goes away) is chavez any different?The people who play king on this planet are almost all a-holes and idiots. I just don't agree with murdering someone because you don't like him or any other reason. It makes us no better than the "animals" we dislike.

The electronic information age should do more than anything to help eradicate the dictators of the world.

[cutthemdown]

The people who play king on this planet are almost all a-holes and idiots. I just don't agree with murdering someone because you don't like him or any other reason. It makes us no better than the "animals" we dislike.

The electronic information age should do more than anything to help eradicate the dictators of the world.

In war you don't murder the enemy, you kill them!! BIG RED ONE LEE MARVIN.

Doesn't make it true only that he said it so well and I love the movie.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You sound like Ann Coulter, if you don't like em, kill em.

Exactly.

It's amusing to watch the right-wing sheep go after the designated Bush/Exxon boogeyman of the week - only to move on to the next bad guy du jour when they're told to shift their attention (just like Bush's ever-changing war rationale.)

Meanwhile, truly horrific right-wing regimes who play ball with the Bush/Exxon oligopoly (some with truly abysmal human rights records) never even show up on their radar.

[W*GS]

LABF to Hugo's rescue...

[cutthemdown]

Exactly.

It's amusing to watch the right-wing sheep go after the designated Bush/Exxon boogeyman of the week - only to move on to the next bad guy du jour when they're told to shift their attention (just like Bush's ever-changing war rationale.)

Meanwhile, truly horrific right-wing regimes who play ball with the Bush/Exxon oligopoly (some with truly abysmal human rights records) never even show up on their radar.

so you support Chavez moving troops to the border with Columbia? Its a provacative move no? Or do you believe Chavez when he says Columbia is planning to invade on orders for USA?

[24champ]

LABF to Hugo's rescue...

Yup. He's right on cue.

[cutthemdown]

Now Ecuador pissed saying Columbia attacking in their territory and they have sent troops to border. Wow this really could blow up and suck Bolivia in also. This could be big.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yup. He's right on cue.

Nope - just pointing out the hypocrisy of the right.

[alkemical]

Can somebody just shoot Chavez in the face and end his miserable existence.

IN DEFENSE OF PAT ROBERTSON
1 Artemis 83 p.s.U.

Nothing is true. All is permitted.
Hasan i Sabbah

Just as a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, even a Christian Fundamentalist gets a savvy notion every now and then. I think rev. Robertson had a good idea when he suggested replacing war with assassination in one case, on economic grounds. He merely didn’t carry the concept far enough.

I suggest that we should abolish war utterly and replace it entirely with selective assassination. Think about the savings this would mean, in this age when even our “little” wars cost billions of dollars a year, and rememer the cogent observation of the late Senator Dirkson: “A billion here, a billion there – pretty soon you’re talking about REAL Money.” We’ve already gotten our national debt so high that our posterity “unto the seventh generation” will never pay it off; do we really need to enslave the whole future to the international bankers?

On the moral side, killing a few dozen foreigners a year instead of a few hundred thousand should seem less messy, to say the least of it, especially when you consider the collatarel damage to our own side. How much blood and death do we need?

Reversing a sentimental error of the ‘60s, the new anti-war slogan should be MAKE ASSASSINATIONS, NOT WARS.

And, best of all, if this idea catches on internationally we can expect at least 50 contracts on George Bush the first week.

~ R.A.W (http://www.rawilson.com/thoughts.shtml)

[loborugger]

Now Ecuador pissed saying Columbia attacking in their territory and they have sent troops to border. Wow this really could blow up and suck Bolivia in also. This could be big.

I would be surprised at this point if Evo would send any significant number of troops outta here. Granted, he would do his master's bidding (Hugo). Nonetheless, the eastern half of the country - where the gas reserves are to be found - hates him. He doesnt visit areas like Santa Cruz without taking the Army with him. He is also trying to ramrod his socialist constitution down the countries collective throat - which again is causing huge problems in the eastern half of the country.

There were some great articles last week talking about the lawlessness of the Col/VZ border, how the FARC passes thru the area unmolested, they move their coke wholesale across the border and bring back weapons.

Chavez's reaction might be a good sign. Since the Uribe admion started in Colombia, the FARC has been taking it on the chin, and are in retreat in most areas. Their bombings in Bogota have diminished and people are as upbeat as they have been in decades. Maybe its a sign that the FARC needs more than covert help from Chavez, they now need his overt assistance.

Ecuador is another one of Chavez's lapdogs, now, too. The border area of Ecuador/CB near the city of Pasta is another hotbed of FARC activity, and every time the CB police or the CB army gets too hot, they disappear across the border. I sincerely doubt, however, that the Ecuadorian Army is headed to the border to stabilize the area and keep the FARC from using the border as a revolving door.

You gotta feel bad for the Colombians. They have been locked in this struggle with the FARC - formerly Commy guerrilas, now just drug running thugs - for 40 years and they are finally making some good headway only to have their neighbors back the thugs. No rest for the wicked, I guess.

[sirhcyennek81]

The people who play king on this planet are almost all a-holes and idiots. I just don't agree with murdering someone because you don't like him or any other reason. It makes us no better than the "animals" we dislike.

The electronic information age should do more than anything to help eradicate the dictators of the world.


Lot of computers and internet access in North Korea?


:Broncos:

[alkemical]

Lot of computers and internet access in North Korea?


:Broncos:

What happens when companies like Google co-operate with such regimes as well?

[W*GS]

Hugo's just pissed that the Colombians killed one of FARC's most important commanders, Raul Reyes. Just shows that Hugo (and his apologists here) don't truly give a damn about the Venezuelan people or the region.

Also, Colombia says there were ties between Ecuador and FARC:

http://www.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUSN02297382._CH_.2400

[sirhcyennek81]

Exactly.

It's amusing to watch the right-wing sheep go after the designated Bush/Exxon boogeyman of the week - only to move on to the next bad guy du jour when they're told to shift their attention (just like Bush's ever-changing war rationale.)

Meanwhile, truly horrific right-wing regimes who play ball with the Bush/Exxon oligopoly (some with truly abysmal human rights records) never even show up on their radar.


And what does this have to do with Chavez threatening Colombia because Colombia dared to defend themselves from FARC?


:Broncos:

[sirhcyennek81]

What happens when companies like Google co-operate with such regimes as well?


They become DNC donors.


:Broncos:

[alkemical]

hehe

[cutthemdown]

I would be surprised at this point if Evo would send any significant number of troops outta here. Granted, he would do his master's bidding (Hugo). Nonetheless, the eastern half of the country - where the gas reserves are to be found - hates him. He doesnt visit areas like Santa Cruz without taking the Army with him. He is also trying to ramrod his socialist constitution down the countries collective throat - which again is causing huge problems in the eastern half of the country.

There were some great articles last week talking about the lawlessness of the Col/VZ border, how the FARC passes thru the area unmolested, they move their coke wholesale across the border and bring back weapons.

Chavez's reaction might be a good sign. Since the Uribe admion started in Colombia, the FARC has been taking it on the chin, and are in retreat in most areas. Their bombings in Bogota have diminished and people are as upbeat as they have been in decades. Maybe its a sign that the FARC needs more than covert help from Chavez, they now need his overt assistance.

Ecuador is another one of Chavez's lapdogs, now, too. The border area of Ecuador/CB near the city of Pasta is another hotbed of FARC activity, and every time the CB police or the CB army gets too hot, they disappear across the border. I sincerely doubt, however, that the Ecuadorian Army is headed to the border to stabilize the area and keep the FARC from using the border as a revolving door.

You gotta feel bad for the Colombians. They have been locked in this struggle with the FARC - formerly Commy guerrilas, now just drug running thugs - for 40 years and they are finally making some good headway only to have their neighbors back the thugs. No rest for the wicked, I guess.

Interesting points. I'd say you may be right on that Columbia and Ecuador reacting this way signals that FARC could need more then covert help. That's a really good point. If just letting them run drugs and use some jungle isnt enough the next step is to try and get vocal and create sympathy for them and make your own people afraid of the columbians.

[W*GS]

Now Colombia is accusing Chavez of directly funding FARC:

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0346014620080303

[loborugger]

Interesting points. I'd say you may be right on that Columbia and Ecuador reacting this way signals that FARC could need more then covert help. That's a really good point. If just letting them run drugs and use some jungle isnt enough the next step is to try and get vocal and create sympathy for them and make your own people afraid of the columbians.

Oh, Chavez's Venezuela does a hell of a lot more than just let them use a little jungle. There are intimate connections between the VZ army and the FARC. The FARC gets arms from VZ. They train in VZ. They rest in VZ. They have hospitals set up in VZ. The top rebels families live there and their children are educated there.

I guess the rub is that Reyes was apparently killed on Ecuadorian soil. Which is why the Ecuadorian Army is moving into the region. As for Hugo, he is protecting his minions and showing solidarity.

South America hasnt had a land war (I am not counting the Falklands War between Argentina and European Britain) since, I believe, the 1937 Soccer War. This war fought between, again I believe, Bolivia and Paraguay was over as the name suggests, a soccer game.

They havent had a war here in a long time. I dont think they are intimate with the horrors of war (outside of those that have lived in Colombia for last 40 years and had to put up with the FARC) as other populations are. They might only see glory and conquest.

However, I dont see Hugo starting a war, to be honest. He is getting great world wide press over this already. Which is what he is all about. I am no expert on Colombia, but I dont know that there is any great resource to be gained by attacking eastern Colombia. Besides, if there is a competent military in South America, its going to be the battle tested Colombians that have been somewhat trained and somewhat armed by us. Meanwhile, I dont know the last war or battle that the Venezuelans fought. It may go back to the 19th century. Who knows how that army will fight. Saber rattling gets much more good press than failed offensives against neighbors who havent wronged you.

[cutthemdown]

This could get ugly when summer gas price rise is on the horizon. But I find it strange that Farc and Chavez seem so chummy with eachother. Chavez may be picking a fight he can't win. Columbia is more then capable of taking it to the Venezualan army. They are better equiped, better trained, and more battle hardened.

[loborugger]

Hasnt Chavez already said he wasnt going to sell us any more oil? If we are already cut off, I dont know that it will matter much what he does next as it relates to US gas prices.

Another point I didnt mention in my previous posts is the fact that trade between the two countries, Col and VZ is very high and very profitable right now - and thats the legit stuff, too. Chavez would be cutting off his nose to spite his face. Further, I would imagine that an unprovoked war against a neighbor would draw condemnation and possibly embargos from the western world. So, in addition to losing trade with a neighbor, you risk losing trade with the US and the European Union. That would HAVE to be painful. I imagine those are all in his top 5 or 6 trade partners and may account for a total of 50 percent of his trade.

[cutthemdown]

Hasnt Chavez already said he wasnt going to sell us any more oil? If we are already cut off, I dont know that it will matter much what he does next as it relates to US gas prices.

Another point I didnt mention in my previous posts is the fact that trade between the two countries, Col and VZ is very high and very profitable right now - and thats the legit stuff, too. Chavez would be cutting off his nose to spite his face. Further, I would imagine that an unprovoked war against a neighbor would draw condemnation and possibly embargos from the western world. So, in addition to losing trade with a neighbor, you risk losing trade with the US and the European Union. That would HAVE to be painful. I imagine those are all in his top 5 or 6 trade partners and may account for a total of 50 percent of his trade.

Chavez has never followed through on that threat. They refine the majority of their crude in refineries on USA soil so it would be tough for them to do it. It doesn't take oil being cut off to effect prices, only the threat of another conflict.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

This could get ugly when summer gas price rise is on the horizon. But I find it strange that Farc and Chavez seem so chummy with eachother. Chavez may be picking a fight he can't win. Columbia is more then capable of taking it to the Venezualan army. They are better equiped, better trained, and more battle hardened.Where did you come up with this?

Chavez has never followed through on that threat. They refine the majority of their crude in refineries on USA soil so it would be tough for them to do it. It doesn't take oil being cut off to effect prices, only the threat of another conflict.Tough for them to do what? They export over 2.4 million barrels a day with China slowly grabbing more of the that every year and China signing on to build new refineries (building them right now).

[cutthemdown]

I base it on the fact Colombia gets military aid from USA and Venezuala doesn't. Columbia has been fighting a rebel insurgency for some odd 40 yrs most of the troops have seen action. Venezuelas troops have not fired a shot. America helps Colombia with intelligence which is huge. Sure Chavez bought 100 thousand assualt rifles and some SAM systems, even a buch of tanks and armored personel carriers. The problem is in the jungle you have to fight on foot and that's what Colombias military is hardened to do. The also have a ton more active troops. One count I found from 2005 says 400 thousand for colombia, only like 100 thousand for Venezuela.

The fact the have so many more active troops, have been better trained, have fought more and have our support makes it a rout.

Those submarines, tanks, helicopters wont do them a bit of good in the jungle vs Colombians battle hardened troops. It would be a rout.

[cutthemdown]

not too mention colombia just a bigger country, about twice the population.

[yavoon]

Now Colombia is accusing Chavez of directly funding FARC:

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0346014620080303

thats the non-shock of the century.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I base it on the fact Colombia gets military aid from USA and Venezuala doesn't. Columbia has been fighting a rebel insurgency for some odd 40 yrs most of the troops have seen action. Venezuelas troops have not fired a shot. America helps Colombia with intelligence which is huge. Sure Chavez bought 100 thousand assualt rifles and some SAM systems, even a buch of tanks and armored personel carriers. The problem is in the jungle you have to fight on foot and that's what Colombias military is hardened to do. The also have a ton more active troops. One count I found from 2005 says 400 thousand for colombia, only like 100 thousand for Venezuela.

The fact the have so many more active troops, have been better trained, have fought more and have our support makes it a rout.

Those submarines, tanks, helicopters wont do them a bit of good in the jungle vs Colombians battle hardened troops. It would be a rout.Ignorant comment.

Neither country has fought a war for decades. Engaging small groups of guerrillas sure doesn't count. And you'll find (Jane's) Venezuela is the beneficiary of stockpiles of arms from China (including hundreds of thousands of Kalashnikovs).

[cutthemdown]

Ignorant comment.

Neither country has fought a war for decades. Engaging small groups of guerrillas sure doesn't count. And you'll find (Jane's) Venezuela is the beneficiary of stockpiles of arms from China (including hundreds of thousands of Kalashnikovs).

doesn't matter Colombia has over twice the amount of soldiers and about 6000 crack rapid response special forces that would wipe the jungle of any forces Venezuela has. I wouldn't say fighting Farc in the jungle is no big deal, Farc has been a tough enemy. Also like I said Venezuela has fought no one ever. Who cares if they have 100 thousand AK-47's we have given colombia over 300 million worth of military aid.

According to the London Center for Strategic Studies Colombia has over 255 thousand professional troops and over 60 thousand reserves that have been trained well. Venezuela on the other hand has only 100 thousand trained professional troops and all the rest are farmers in the reserves who would last about a second on a battlefield.

You can't win a war when you don't have air superiority and also have 150 thousand less troops. Add to that the fact the last time the Venezuelan forces did anything was 1992 in a failed coup attempt. They just aren't ready to take on Colombia. Also they have way to much trade with colombia, this is all just saber rattling. Chavez knows he would lose his entire army if he tangled with Colombia.

[ant1999e]

Ignorant comment.

Neither country has fought a war for decades. Engaging small groups of guerrillas sure doesn't count. And you'll find (Jane's) Venezuela is the beneficiary of stockpiles of arms from China (including hundreds of thousands of Kalashnikovs).

So, we did win the war in Iraq. Glad to see you come around slug.

[cutthemdown]

So, we did win the war in Iraq. Glad to see you come around slug.

exactly he makes no sense. Good post.

[TailgateNut]

Both of you are showing your true lack of intelligence once again.

We attacked a country and after we were there the "groups of guerrillas" AKA Al queda mobilized to fight us there.

Nice "weak" try.

[ant1999e]

Both of you are showing your true lack of intelligence once again.

We attacked a country and after we were there the "groups of guerrillas" AKA Al queda mobilized to fight us there.

Nice "weak" try.

But according to slug, "Engaging small groups of guerrillas sure doesn't count" as a war.

I'm not arguing one way or the other. I'm just pointing out slugs hypocracy.

In my opinion fighting against a well armed guerilla group in the jungle for almost 50 years is a hell of alot more experience than what venezuela has.

[cutthemdown]

Both of you are showing your true lack of intelligence once again.

We attacked a country and after we were there the "groups of guerrillas" AKA Al queda mobilized to fight us there.

Nice "weak" try.

Colombia has nothing to do with Iraq so I don't see what you even mean to point out by saying this.

My point was:

a- Colombia is much bigger country population wise the Venezuela.
b- They have a more battle tested military then Venezuela.
c- They have a bigger army then Venezuela.
d- They are better trained then Venezuela.
e- They would have better intelligence then Venezuela (through usa)

I don't see how any of those points can be labeled as ignorant tailgatedullard and beerfag.

[elsid13]

To tell the truth, while there is little chance an attentional war will occur, but there is heightened chance a freaking spooked out soldier can cause some conflict.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Both of you are showing your true lack of intelligence once again.

Are you surprised?

Remember: You're talking to people who still haven't realized that voting for Bush in '04 was a mistake on their part. ;)

[cutthemdown]

Are you surprised?

Remember: You're talking to people who still haven't realized that voting for Bush in '04 was a mistake on their part. ;)

so what in my assessment is so far off then LABF. What of these points do you disagree with? I'd really like to know because all of them are straight facts.

[cutthemdown]

I'd love to see Chavez screw up and get a bunch of his fancy new military equipment blown up. It would be just like the CIA to plant evidence implicating Chavez to Farc, then give the info to the Colombians and persuade them to attack into Ecuador knowing Chavez will go nuts. Now all we need is a little spark and we can bomb those tanks and submarines he got in one swift strike. I bet in 10 hours we could pretty much level everything he thinks he has.

All we need now is to get a Venezuelan jet, flown by a cia pilot, go drop a bomb on some building, lie like the Palestinains and say it was full of kids, and boom no more Chavez, we take him out like yesterdays trash. Go ahead and take Ecuador out also I imagine it would only take about a week then we can steal Chavezs oil as well.

by the way I'm just kidding don't get all pissed you lefty fairies.

[ant1999e]

so what in my assessment is so far off then LABF. What of these points do you disagree with? I'd really like to know because all of them are straight facts.

Cue the crickets.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So, we did win the war in Iraq. Glad to see you come around slug.You on crack again? We haven't won anything in Iraq and we haven't been at war in Iraq.

Your ignorance is dazzling at times.

[Kaylore]

This is yet another thread showing how off base the left is.

Venezuela is a country that is really in disarray with a President looking for every excuse to become a dictator. They have severe poverty problems and are at risk for a coup. Despite all this once again the lefties here jump to his defense and would instead try and say our Country is worse off. Bass-ackwards.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

doesn't matter Colombia has over twice the amount of soldiers and about 6000 crack rapid response special forces that would wipe the jungle of any forces Venezuela has. I wouldn't say fighting Farc in the jungle is no big deal, Farc has been a tough enemy. Also like I said Venezuela has fought no one ever. Who cares if they have 100 thousand AK-47's we have given colombia over 300 million worth of military aid.

According to the London Center for Strategic Studies Colombia has over 255 thousand professional troops and over 60 thousand reserves that have been trained well. Venezuela on the other hand has only 100 thousand trained professional troops and all the rest are farmers in the reserves who would last about a second on a battlefield.

You can't win a war when you don't have air superiority and also have 150 thousand less troops. Add to that the fact the last time the Venezuelan forces did anything was 1992 in a failed coup attempt. They just aren't ready to take on Colombia. Also they have way to much trade with colombia, this is all just saber rattling. Chavez knows he would lose his entire army if he tangled with Colombia.

You should try and keep up with world events. China is now an ally of Venezuela. You calling them an easy target for Columbia is just plain stupid. This is some dated info, Jane's has more current info on their military buildup.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Procurements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Venezuela)

The Venezuelan government has embarked on a massive military modernization and purchases that greatly expand their defensive and offensive capabilities, including negotiations for German submarines and transport aircraft, several agreements with Russia (outlined below), transport aircraft and naval vessels from Spain, radars from China, home-made and designed armored light vehicles and rocket launchers, studies for Leopard 2 main battle tanks, amongst many others.

In 2005 Venezuela signed agreements with Spain to procure 12 naval transport and reconnaissance aircraft and eight naval patrol vessels. The deal is worth $1.5-2 billion dollars to the Spanish defense industry, as well as an estimated 900 new jobs.

Venezuela has also recently purchased 100,000 AK-103 assault rifles and 53 Russian helicopters [1], including 12 Mi-17 military helicopters.[2] The government of Venezuela has also announced its intention to obtain about 3 dozen more Russian helicopters, including Mi-17 "Hip", Mi-26 "Halo" and Mi-35 "Hind", as well as announcing the procurement of 24 Su-30MK Interceptors with future possible purchases of Su-35 fighters.[3] Russia earned from Venezuela US$5.3 billion just with the above mentioned sales[4].

Venezuela has been offered the 2S31 Vena from Russia.

Venezuela is studying Antonov transport aircraft to revamp its aging fleet of transport craft, which includes IAI Aravas and Skytrucks, as well as Ground Attack Planes, like the Su-25 "Frogfoot".

Venezuela has announced the purchase of 3 batteries of the TOR-M1 system, with the possible acquisition of 600 armored vehicles - possibly the BMP 3 or the Sabiex Iguana FV4.[5] Border defense systems are being purchased from Brazil, plus Steyr anti-riot trucks and expanded Tiuna purchases.

A co-operative research into UAV between Venezuela and Iran is also underway.[6]

In 2007, the Belarusian military optics industry will be supplying the Venezuelan army with night vision devices, and to be installed on - as Hugo Chavez described: "every single rifle in the Venezuelan army."[7]

In June, 2007 President Hugo Chavez confirmed that Russia will deliver 5 Kilo class 636 diesel submarines to Venezuela.[8]

On August 19, 2007 President Hugo Chavez announced the purchase of 5,000 Dragunov sniper rifles from the Russian Rosoboronexport, adding that Venezuela must ready itself for a "possible US invasion"[9].

[Bronco_Beerslug]

This is yet another thread showing how off base the left is.

Venezuela is a country that is really in disarray with a President looking for every excuse to become a dictator. They have severe poverty problems and are at risk for a coup. Despite all this once again the lefties here jump to his defense and would instead try and say our Country is worse off. Bass-ackwards.Actually, it's another thread showing how uninformed and ignorant some people on the right are.

[ant1999e]

You on crack again? We haven't won anything in Iraq and we haven't been at war in Iraq.

Your ignorance is dazzling at times.

Wow.:kiddingme

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Wow.:kiddingmeWhat's the problem, you don't understand the difference between a police action and war? The same hundreds of thousands of RA, NG and Marines have been in Iraq over and over and over and over. This country is not at war and no we haven't won a thing over there.

[cutthemdown]

It doesnt matter beerslug because venezuela doesnt have the troops to compete with colombia. Sure he bought tanks, fancy helicopters, etc, but its all for show. You don't get it the military is not well trained and there isnt enough of them. Go check janes colombia has like 100 thousand more troops. Not just people who haven't been trained either. Unless China is sending troops it would be a rout. Not one of those jets or helicopters would do a thing but get shot down. It all comes down to manpower and Colombia has a supreme advantage as a top 40 world army as far as size. Venezuela just doesn't compare. Now way Chavez will let anyone blow up his toys, its all grandstanding he knows he can't attack.

[cutthemdown]

you tell me China is sending 20 thousand well trained troops and then maybe.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Actually, it's another thread showing how uninformed and ignorant some people on the right are.

:yep:

Never have to worry about a shortage of those.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'll bet Bush's oil buddies are creaming their Wranglers over this.

Can you say "proxy war?"

Maybe the pinead can send Rummy down to sell some chemical and biological weapons to the Columbians.

[24champ]

so what in my assessment is so far off then LABF. What of these points do you disagree with? I'd really like to know because all of them are straight facts.

He has to wait to find out the official stance from Smirkingchimp.com before he can answer...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

He has to wait to find out the official stance from Smirkingchimp.com before he can answer...

A most ironic comment from a defender of a thoroughly discredited president and party whose understanding of politics and world events clearly starts and ends with Ann Coulter and Rehab Rush.

[24champ]

Then why don't you respond to Cutts post?

Ant1999e was right, Cue the crickets.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Then why don't you respond to Cutts post?

Ant1999e was right, Cue the crickets.

Because I wasn't talking to him to begin with, genius! :wave:

You're lucky you caught me right after a Lakers victory and I'm in a good mood!

http://www.janeironation.5gigs.com/cc.html

[cutthemdown]

How is this even a repub, dem issue? I mean this is an America vs a country that hates us issue. Chavez would love to see bad things happen to all of us. That alone should make you want to see him fail. That alone should make you pull for Colombia.

Screw Ecuador and Venezuela. What the hell is wrong with you people? What the hell is happening to our country? I sure hope McCain, Hillairy, Obama has what it takes to make us all love our country again and put America first. When we went into Serbia I felt the same as I do right now. For gods sakes let us kick ass.

Saddam= got what he deserved anyone who sheds a tear for that POS is an idiot.

Afghanistan=What the hell did they think would happen? I mean cmon they got off easy IMO. We should have dropped fuel air bombs for 1000 hours straight until there was nothing less.

Iran= Anyone who thinks that freak should be allowed to develop a nuke has to about the stupidest POS to ever live.

Venezuela= what a peon piss ant of a joke of a country. They are lucky we haven't bombed the crap out of them at this point. They are a fly that needs to be swatted.

To me those are facts and have nothing to do with what party you belong to.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

How is this even a repub, dem issue? I mean this is an America vs a country that hates us issue. Chavez would love to see bad things happen to all of us. That alone should make you want to see him fail. That alone should make you pull for Colombia.

Screw Ecuador and Venezuela. What the hell is wrong with you people? What the hell is happening to our country? I sure hope McCain, Hillairy, Obama has what it takes to make us all love our country again and put America first. When we went into Serbia I felt the same as I do right now. For gods sakes let us kick ass.

Saddam= got what he deserved anyone who sheds a tear for that POS is an idiot.

Afghanistan=What the hell did they think would happen? I mean cmon they got off easy IMO. We should have dropped fuel air bombs for 1000 hours straight until there was nothing less.

Iran= Anyone who thinks that freak should be allowed to develop a nuke has to about the stupidest POS to ever live.

Venezuela= what a peon piss ant of a joke of a country. They are lucky we haven't bombed the crap out of them at this point. They are a fly that needs to be swatted.

To me those are facts and have nothing to do with what party you belong to.That's the problem with some on the right, they think we need to invade and kill people who think and act differently than we do and then they label anyone who isn't onboard with this type archaic/barbaric behavior as unpatriotic.

[alkemical]

It's a big issue in any phallus-dominated society.

[W*GS]

Are you surprised?

Remember: You're talking to people who still haven't realized that voting for Bush in '04 was a mistake on their part. ;)

We're not talking about Bush - we're talking about the object of your mancrush, Hugo Chavez.

Anything to deflect from him, eh?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I know you would like to do for Bush what Monica did for Bill, W*GS, but try not to knee-jerk to the frat boy's rescue everytime his name is mentioned on a political discussion forum, OK?

[defenseman]

How is this even a repub, dem issue? I mean this is an America vs a country that hates us issue. Chavez would love to see bad things happen to all of us. That alone should make you want to see him fail. That alone should make you pull for Colombia.

Screw Ecuador and Venezuela. What the hell is wrong with you people? What the hell is happening to our country? I sure hope McCain, Hillairy, Obama has what it takes to make us all love our country again and put America first. When we went into Serbia I felt the same as I do right now. For gods sakes let us kick ass.

Saddam= got what he deserved anyone who sheds a tear for that POS is an idiot.

Afghanistan=What the hell did they think would happen? I mean cmon they got off easy IMO. We should have dropped fuel air bombs for 1000 hours straight until there was nothing less.

Iran= Anyone who thinks that freak should be allowed to develop a nuke has to about the stupidest POS to ever live.

Venezuela= what a peon piss ant of a joke of a country. They are lucky we haven't bombed the crap out of them at this point. They are a fly that needs to be swatted.

To me those are facts and have nothing to do with what party you belong to.

I'm hoping colombia gets their fill of "chavez" and his dictator ways and takes the "proper" action with this bozo. The right events fall into place, they'll solve our problem with chavez for us. I have no problem with that..dman

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

How is this even a repub, dem issue? I mean this is an America vs a country that hates us issue.

:oyvey:

Christ, you people never learn, do you?

Righties like you tried to explain the Islamic extremist problem in equally simpleton terms, e.g., "they hate us for our freedom," etc.

You never dig deeper to try to understand why some people hate us (or our leaders.)

That way you don't have to examine whether we (or our leaders) have done anything to earn the animosity or not.

All but about 19% of Americans have realized how simple-minded and stupid this sort of mentality is.

Chavez would love to see bad things happen to all of us.


:bs:

Not all of us.

Chavez doesn't have a problem with the American people - it's our sociopathic, war-mongering leader (and the globalist vampires who pull his strings) he has a problem with.

Bush, via his idiotic, bellicose, cowboy policies, stirs up hornets' nests, and when the hornets finally get pissed off and retaliate, Bush's supporters blame the hornets.

[defenseman]

Chavez is a wanna-be self absorbed socialist dictator from hell. He could care less about ANYONE but himself. It all starts and ends exactly there, and it will be his downfall......dman

[TailgateNut]

How is this even a repub, dem issue? I mean this is an America vs a country that hates us issue. Chavez would love to see bad things happen to all of us. That alone should make you want to see him fail. That alone should make you pull for Colombia.

Screw Ecuador and Venezuela. What the hell is wrong with you people? What the hell is happening to our country? I sure hope McCain, Hillairy, Obama has what it takes to make us all love our country again and put America first. When we went into Serbia I felt the same as I do right now. For gods sakes let us kick ass.

Saddam= got what he deserved anyone who sheds a tear for that POS is an idiot.

Afghanistan=What the hell did they think would happen? I mean cmon they got off easy IMO. We should have dropped fuel air bombs for 1000 hours straight until there was nothing less.

Iran= Anyone who thinks that freak should be allowed to develop a nuke has to about the stupidest POS to ever live.

Venezuela= what a peon piss ant of a joke of a country. They are lucky we haven't bombed the crap out of them at this point. They are a fly that needs to be swatted.

To me those are facts and have nothing to do with what party you belong to.


You should join the service, considering your warmongering ideals. But you wont do that because you are a typical repuke who just loves to send others to fight your wars while you sit at home finding new ways to make enemies.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You should join the service, considering your warmongering ideals. But you wont do that because you are a typical repuke who just loves to send others to fight your wars while you sit at home finding new ways to make enemies.

http://nextstoplauderdale.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/chickenhawk.jpg

[W*GS]

I know you would like to do for Chavez what Monica did for Bill, LABF, but try not to knee-jerk to Hugo's rescue everytime his name is mentioned on a political discussion forum, OK?

Fixed it for ya.

[Rohirrim]

How is this even a repub, dem issue? I mean this is an America vs a country that hates us issue. Chavez would love to see bad things happen to all of us. That alone should make you want to see him fail. That alone should make you pull for Colombia.

Screw Ecuador and Venezuela. What the hell is wrong with you people? What the hell is happening to our country? I sure hope McCain, Hillairy, Obama has what it takes to make us all love our country again and put America first. When we went into Serbia I felt the same as I do right now. For gods sakes let us kick ass.

Saddam= got what he deserved anyone who sheds a tear for that POS is an idiot.

Afghanistan=What the hell did they think would happen? I mean cmon they got off easy IMO. We should have dropped fuel air bombs for 1000 hours straight until there was nothing less.

Iran= Anyone who thinks that freak should be allowed to develop a nuke has to about the stupidest POS to ever live.

Venezuela= what a peon piss ant of a joke of a country. They are lucky we haven't bombed the crap out of them at this point. They are a fly that needs to be swatted.

To me those are facts and have nothing to do with what party you belong to.

Simply put, the reason this happens is because there are many Americans who simply don't trust our government - and for very good reason. Our government has made a habit of lying to us for decades. They tell us one thing is going on then we find out it's something completely different. It's like the boy who cried wolf. Our government has cried wolf so many times that when they point out some new conflict and they want us to line up and die for it, we call :bs:

According to my reading on the Founders and the concept of democracy, it's what we're supposed to do.

[ant1999e]

Simply put, the reason this happens is because there are many Americans who simply don't trust our government - and for very good reason. Our government has made a habit of lying to us for decades. They tell us one thing is going on then we find out it's something completely different. It's like the boy who cried wolf. Our government has cried wolf so many times that when they point out some new conflict and they want us to line up and die for it, we call :bs:

According to my reading on the Founders and the concept of democracy, it's what we're supposed to do.

It's one thing to question your government. It's another thing to root for the other guy.

[Rohirrim]

It's one thing to question your government. It's another thing to root for the other guy.

Speaking for myself, I hope that idiot Chavez picks a fight with the Columbians and they kick his ass until the Venezuelan people drag him out and hang him. I also hope that the U.S. keeps its nose out of it, which we have never, and won't now. Part of what is going on down there has been caused by U.S. manipulation and intrusion in an effort to control resources that are not ours, and another part is caused by our idiotic, failed war on drugs which has done nothing less than create the drug lords (and by extension, the rebels) and fund their armories, just as we created the mafia by outlawing booze. Remember Manuel Noriega? We created him too.

[TailgateNut]

It's one thing to question your government. It's another thing to root for the other guy.


Another BushBot talking point which is totally baseless!

[W*GS]

Speaking for myself, I hope that idiot Chavez picks a fight with the Columbians and they kick his ass until the Venezuelan people drag him out and hang him. I also hope that the U.S. keeps its nose out of it, which we have never, and won't now. Part of what is going on down there has been caused by U.S. manipulation and intrusion in an effort to control resources that are not ours, and another part is caused by our idiotic, failed war on drugs which has done nothing less than create the drug lords (and by extension, the rebels) and fund their armories, just as we created the mafia by outlawing booze. Remember Manuel Noriega? We created him too.

Wow - you're on a streak today.

Another bingo for ya.

[ant1999e]

Another BushBot talking point which is totally baseless!

So you don't agree that at least one person on this board is openly rooting for Chavez?

As for the bushbot crap. Uhh O.K. Typical from a lefty when you have no real response.

[loborugger]

It's one thing to question your government. It's another thing to root for the other guy.

Thats about the way I see this thread, and the generally feelings towards Chavez on this board by certain members, too.

I have on this board come out numerous times and criticized my govt, esp this current administration. I have also said good things about my govt, which is a lot rarer. However I am overall very proud to be an American citizen and I think our govt, in its own silly way is pretty well run. I have spent the last 8 months living in a country run by 10th graders, so its given me a real appreciation as to the maturity and intelligence of the US Government - and 12 months ago I would have never thought I would ever think a thing like that.

However, there are those folks on here who are so blinded by their hatred of Bush, that they will support anyone who says anything negative about him and about the US in general, ie, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I dont worry about those folks. Their minds are made up - dont confuse them with the facts. I knew the same kinds of folks from the other side that spent 8 years consumed with hatred of Clinton and in the end they just fizzled out and dont have much to say anymore.

I like what US Congressman Charles Rangel had to say when Chavez, ever the mature and intelligent statesman, came to the UN and called Bush satan and said he could still smell the sulphur at the podium where Bush had just given a speech the day before. For those unfamiliar, Rangel is a liberal democrat that represents NYC, places like Harlem and Wash Heights. I cant improve on what he said, so I will just quote it right here. "I want President Chávez to please understand that even though many people in the United States are critical of our president that we resent the fact that he would come to the United States and criticize President Bush... you don't come into my country, you don't come into my congressional district and you don't condemn my president."

Its a shame that more people cant clearly grasp this concept that Rep Rangel stated so eloquently.

[The Lone Bolt]

Thats about the way I see this thread, and the generally feelings towards Chavez on this board by certain members, too.

I have on this board come out numerous times and criticized my govt, esp this current administration. I have also said good things about my govt, which is a lot rarer. However I am overall very proud to be an American citizen and I think our govt, in its own silly way is pretty well run. I have spent the last 8 months living in a country run by 10th graders, so its given me a real appreciation as to the maturity and intelligence of the US Government - and 12 months ago I would have never thought I would ever think a thing like that.

However, there are those folks on here who are so blinded by their hatred of Bush, that they will support anyone who says anything negative about him and about the US in general, ie, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I dont worry about those folks. Their minds are made up - dont confuse them with the facts. I knew the same kinds of folks from the other side that spent 8 years consumed with hatred of Clinton and in the end they just fizzled out and dont have much to say anymore.

I like what US Congressman Charles Rangel had to say when Chavez, ever the mature and intelligent statesman, came to the UN and called Bush satan and said he could still smell the sulphur at the podium where Bush had just given a speech the day before. For those unfamiliar, Rangel is a liberal democrat that represents NYC, places like Harlem and Wash Heights. I cant improve on what he said, so I will just quote it right here. "I want President Chávez to please understand that even though many people in the United States are critical of our president that we resent the fact that he would come to the United States and criticize President Bush... you don't come into my country, you don't come into my congressional district and you don't condemn my president."

Its a shame that more people cant clearly grasp this concept that Rep Rangel stated so eloquently.


:yep:

The most lucid post I've read on this board all week. Rep 4 U!

[ant1999e]

Thats about the way I see this thread, and the generally feelings towards Chavez on this board by certain members, too.

I have on this board come out numerous times and criticized my govt, esp this current administration. I have also said good things about my govt, which is a lot rarer. However I am overall very proud to be an American citizen and I think our govt, in its own silly way is pretty well run. I have spent the last 8 months living in a country run by 10th graders, so its given me a real appreciation as to the maturity and intelligence of the US Government - and 12 months ago I would have never thought I would ever think a thing like that.

However, there are those folks on here who are so blinded by their hatred of Bush, that they will support anyone who says anything negative about him and about the US in general, ie, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I dont worry about those folks. Their minds are made up - dont confuse them with the facts. I knew the same kinds of folks from the other side that spent 8 years consumed with hatred of Clinton and in the end they just fizzled out and dont have much to say anymore.

I like what US Congressman Charles Rangel had to say when Chavez, ever the mature and intelligent statesman, came to the UN and called Bush satan and said he could still smell the sulphur at the podium where Bush had just given a speech the day before. For those unfamiliar, Rangel is a liberal democrat that represents NYC, places like Harlem and Wash Heights. I cant improve on what he said, so I will just quote it right here. "I want President Chávez to please understand that even though many people in the United States are critical of our president that we resent the fact that he would come to the United States and criticize President Bush... you don't come into my country, you don't come into my congressional district and you don't condemn my president."

Its a shame that more people cant clearly grasp this concept that Rep Rangel stated so eloquently.

Well said. Rep.

[cutthemdown]

Speaking for myself, I hope that idiot Chavez picks a fight with the Columbians and they kick his ass until the Venezuelan people drag him out and hang him. I also hope that the U.S. keeps its nose out of it, which we have never, and won't now. Part of what is going on down there has been caused by U.S. manipulation and intrusion in an effort to control resources that are not ours, and another part is caused by our idiotic, failed war on drugs which has done nothing less than create the drug lords (and by extension, the rebels) and fund their armories, just as we created the mafia by outlawing booze. Remember Manuel Noriega? We created him too.

I can pretty much agree with this. I don't think it's worth sending Americans, we can let the Colombians do it if it came to that, which it won't. Chavez is all about the show, but even he knows he wouldn't last long with Venezuelan boys coming home all blown to hell. I also agree Farc probably would have been finished long ago if not for all the money in the cocaine trade. I also feel our govt doesn't tell us the truth many times and it has led people to not trust it. In the end though I can't like Chavez, he is anti american and that is what I am so how could I like him.

[elsid13]

By FRANK BAJAK, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 41 minutes ago



Files in a laptop computer seized from the wreckage of a Colombian rebel camp in Ecuador offer new insights into Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's desire to undermine Colombia's U.S.-allied government.

If authentic, the computer files suggest Chavez has been in league with the rebels for more than a decade.

While Chavez is not one of the correspondents, his sentiments are conveyed in numerous messages exchanged by the rebels.

Venezuela contends the texts are lies and fabrications.

If so, they are expertly done.

Not only do they offer an unprecedented glimpse into the rebels' mind-set, they also reflect deepening rebel contacts with European governments and even representatives of the United States, who have tried to negotiate the release of dozens of hostages.

They are signed electronically by the most powerful men in the leftist Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, the hemisphere's oldest and most potent rebel movement.

Those signing the documents include Raul Reyes, the FARC's foreign minister and public face, who was killed when Colombian commandos raided his jungle hideout in Ecuador on Saturday. His killing, along with 23 of his comrades, struck a chilling blow to the group.

Others who signed messages include Manuel Marulanda, the rebels' 77-year-old supreme leader; Jorge Briceno, their much-feared field marshal, and Ivan Marquez, the insurgents' apparent go-between with Chavez. Marquez is believed to live in Venezuela.

Copies of 13 documents were sent to reporters Tuesday by Colombia's national police chief, Gen. Oscar Naranjo. He revealed their existence Sunday as his government came under a withering diplomatic attack for violating Ecuador's territory with the raid.

They indicate that Chavez, seeking to raise the FARC's stature and relieve it of its international pariah status, shares their goal of isolating and discrediting Colombia's president, Alvaro Uribe.

But do they prove that Venezuela was actually financing the FARC's bid to overthrow a democratically elected government? That's not clear.

Naranjo alleges that the number "300," also called the "dossier" in a Dec. 23 message signed by Marquez, refers to a $300 million gift from Chavez to the rebels.

In a Jan. 14 missive, Briceno discusses what to do with the "dossier."

"Who, where, when and how will we receive the dollars and store them?" he asks fellow members of the FARC's seven-man ruling secretariat.

Uribe has worked as no other Colombian president to defeat the FARC. So it's no surprise that in the Jan. 14 message, Briceno discusses a desire to undermine Uribe by making him cede a safe haven to the rebels for talks on a prisoner swap.

"Uribe will become more isolated, together with his boss from the North," the text says — a clear reference to President Bush, whose government provides Colombia with some $600 million a year in military aid.

In a document dated Feb. 9, Marquez passes along Chavez's thanks for a $150,000 gift when he was imprisoned from 1992-94 for leading a failed coup — and indicates Chavez's desire to smear Uribe.

In it, Marquez says Venezuela wants documentation of damage by Colombia's military to "the civilian population, also images of bombardments in the jungle and its devastation — to use as a denunciation before the world."

In a Feb. 8 letter, Marquez discusses Chavez's plan to try to persuade leading Latin American nations to help get the FARC removed from lists of international terror groups.

And at least three of the documents express Chavez's deep desire to meet with Marulanda, hopefully on Venezuelan soil. Marulanda has reportedly never left Colombia.

Marquez also says Chavez is prepared to offer Venezuelan territory for the FARC's desired prisoner swap, which would be a huge embarrassment for Uribe. The FARC has proposed exchanging some 40 hostages, including three U.S. military contractors, for hundreds of rebels currently in Colombia's jails. The FARC captured the three when their surveillance plane crashed in February 2003.

In the Feb. 9 letter, Marquez also relays Chavez's concern about the 60-year U.S. prison sentence given to FARC commander Ricardo Palmera for conspiring to hold the three Americans hostage. He writes that Chavez "was disposed to hire paid lawyers," presumably for Palmera.

The messages indicate Chavez believes his rebel sympathies may have hurt him politically. One communication said Chavez told a rebel contact that this public support may have contributed to his loss of a Dec. 2 referendum that would have consolidated his power.

Chavez's ally, Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa, was similarly engaged with the rebels, the documents indicate.

Before Saturday's raid, Correa's official position was that he wouldn't take sides. But in a Jan. 18 message, Reyes says he received Ecuadorean Internal Security Minister Gustavo Larrea and another envoy who expressed Correa's interest "in making official relations with the FARC's leadership."

Correa's government was willing "to change officers in the security forces who have been hostile to communities and civilians" in the border area where the FARC has camps, Reyes said. Ecuador even offered to "give documentation and protection to one of ours," he wrote.

Larrea has acknowledged the meeting but said it was only to press for the hostages' release.

The rebels have released six hostages — all Colombian politicians — since Uribe tried to end Chavez's mediation role with the FARC in November, accusing the Venezuelan president of overstepping his mandate. The most recent to be freed said last week that hostage Ingrid Betancourt, a former presidential candidate who also holds French citizenship, is extremely ill.

Betancourt has become a cause celebre in France. French contacts with Reyes are mentioned in several documents, including a request that the French envoy, identified only as "Noe," be granted a meeting with Marulanda.

References to U.S. diplomatic overtures are scintillating, if vague.

In a Dec. 11 message to the secretariat, Marquez writes: "If you are in agreement, I can receive Jim and Tucker to hear the proposal of the gringos."

Writing two days before his death, Reyes tells his comrades that "the gringos," working through Ecuador's government, are interested "in talking to us on various issues."

"They say the new president of their country will be (Barack) Obama," he writes, saying Obama rejects both the Bush administration's free trade agreement with Colombia and the current military aid program.

Reyes writes that his response to the Americans was that the United States would have to publicly express these positions.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_farc_laptop

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So you don't agree that at least one person on this board is openly rooting for Chavez?

:stupid:

Gee - let me guess: Who is he referring to?

I'm rooting for a peaceful resolution of the conflict between Venezuela and Columbia, and I'm rooting for improved relations between Venezuela and the U.S.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Another BushBot talking point which is totally baseless!

Just like everything else Bush and his minions have told us over the last eight years.

[yavoon]

By FRANK BAJAK, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 41 minutes ago



Files in a laptop computer seized from the wreckage of a Colombian rebel camp in Ecuador offer new insights into Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's desire to undermine Colombia's U.S.-allied government.

If authentic, the computer files suggest Chavez has been in league with the rebels for more than a decade.

While Chavez is not one of the correspondents, his sentiments are conveyed in numerous messages exchanged by the rebels.

Venezuela contends the texts are lies and fabrications.

If so, they are expertly done.

Not only do they offer an unprecedented glimpse into the rebels' mind-set, they also reflect deepening rebel contacts with European governments and even representatives of the United States, who have tried to negotiate the release of dozens of hostages.

They are signed electronically by the most powerful men in the leftist Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, the hemisphere's oldest and most potent rebel movement.

Those signing the documents include Raul Reyes, the FARC's foreign minister and public face, who was killed when Colombian commandos raided his jungle hideout in Ecuador on Saturday. His killing, along with 23 of his comrades, struck a chilling blow to the group.

Others who signed messages include Manuel Marulanda, the rebels' 77-year-old supreme leader; Jorge Briceno, their much-feared field marshal, and Ivan Marquez, the insurgents' apparent go-between with Chavez. Marquez is believed to live in Venezuela.

Copies of 13 documents were sent to reporters Tuesday by Colombia's national police chief, Gen. Oscar Naranjo. He revealed their existence Sunday as his government came under a withering diplomatic attack for violating Ecuador's territory with the raid.

They indicate that Chavez, seeking to raise the FARC's stature and relieve it of its international pariah status, shares their goal of isolating and discrediting Colombia's president, Alvaro Uribe.

But do they prove that Venezuela was actually financing the FARC's bid to overthrow a democratically elected government? That's not clear.

Naranjo alleges that the number "300," also called the "dossier" in a Dec. 23 message signed by Marquez, refers to a $300 million gift from Chavez to the rebels.

In a Jan. 14 missive, Briceno discusses what to do with the "dossier."

"Who, where, when and how will we receive the dollars and store them?" he asks fellow members of the FARC's seven-man ruling secretariat.

Uribe has worked as no other Colombian president to defeat the FARC. So it's no surprise that in the Jan. 14 message, Briceno discusses a desire to undermine Uribe by making him cede a safe haven to the rebels for talks on a prisoner swap.

"Uribe will become more isolated, together with his boss from the North," the text says — a clear reference to President Bush, whose government provides Colombia with some $600 million a year in military aid.

In a document dated Feb. 9, Marquez passes along Chavez's thanks for a $150,000 gift when he was imprisoned from 1992-94 for leading a failed coup — and indicates Chavez's desire to smear Uribe.

In it, Marquez says Venezuela wants documentation of damage by Colombia's military to "the civilian population, also images of bombardments in the jungle and its devastation — to use as a denunciation before the world."

In a Feb. 8 letter, Marquez discusses Chavez's plan to try to persuade leading Latin American nations to help get the FARC removed from lists of international terror groups.

And at least three of the documents express Chavez's deep desire to meet with Marulanda, hopefully on Venezuelan soil. Marulanda has reportedly never left Colombia.

Marquez also says Chavez is prepared to offer Venezuelan territory for the FARC's desired prisoner swap, which would be a huge embarrassment for Uribe. The FARC has proposed exchanging some 40 hostages, including three U.S. military contractors, for hundreds of rebels currently in Colombia's jails. The FARC captured the three when their surveillance plane crashed in February 2003.

In the Feb. 9 letter, Marquez also relays Chavez's concern about the 60-year U.S. prison sentence given to FARC commander Ricardo Palmera for conspiring to hold the three Americans hostage. He writes that Chavez "was disposed to hire paid lawyers," presumably for Palmera.

The messages indicate Chavez believes his rebel sympathies may have hurt him politically. One communication said Chavez told a rebel contact that this public support may have contributed to his loss of a Dec. 2 referendum that would have consolidated his power.

Chavez's ally, Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa, was similarly engaged with the rebels, the documents indicate.

Before Saturday's raid, Correa's official position was that he wouldn't take sides. But in a Jan. 18 message, Reyes says he received Ecuadorean Internal Security Minister Gustavo Larrea and another envoy who expressed Correa's interest "in making official relations with the FARC's leadership."

Correa's government was willing "to change officers in the security forces who have been hostile to communities and civilians" in the border area where the FARC has camps, Reyes said. Ecuador even offered to "give documentation and protection to one of ours," he wrote.

Larrea has acknowledged the meeting but said it was only to press for the hostages' release.

The rebels have released six hostages — all Colombian politicians — since Uribe tried to end Chavez's mediation role with the FARC in November, accusing the Venezuelan president of overstepping his mandate. The most recent to be freed said last week that hostage Ingrid Betancourt, a former presidential candidate who also holds French citizenship, is extremely ill.

Betancourt has become a cause celebre in France. French contacts with Reyes are mentioned in several documents, including a request that the French envoy, identified only as "Noe," be granted a meeting with Marulanda.

References to U.S. diplomatic overtures are scintillating, if vague.

In a Dec. 11 message to the secretariat, Marquez writes: "If you are in agreement, I can receive Jim and Tucker to hear the proposal of the gringos."

Writing two days before his death, Reyes tells his comrades that "the gringos," working through Ecuador's government, are interested "in talking to us on various issues."

"They say the new president of their country will be (Barack) Obama," he writes, saying Obama rejects both the Bush administration's free trade agreement with Colombia and the current military aid program.

Reyes writes that his response to the Americans was that the United States would have to publicly express these positions.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_farc_laptop

crazy stuff. I think a good response to this from the left would be to say something really vile about the united states of america, the true enemy afterall.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

crazy stuff. I think a good response to this from the left would be to say something really vile about the united states of america, the true enemy afterall.Typical right wing mantra (blame the the left for tearing down the country when they question government). A question though, what country has attacked, or participated in attacking two foreign countries in the last week (hint: one in Africa and one in South America)?

[TailgateNut]

So you don't agree that at least one person on this board is openly rooting for Chavez?

As for the bushbot crap. Uhh O.K. Typical from a lefty when you have no real response.

You are the ****ing righty idiot who stereotypes us of having a love affair with Chavez, and then you wonder why the hatred toward those same idiots who put Bush in office. Check your own IQ and Love for our country befroe accusing anyone of misplaced patriotism.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

crazy stuff. I think a good response to this from the left would be to say something really vile about the united states of america, the true enemy afterall.

That's so 2003.

You rightards really need to come up with some new straw men.

[Rohirrim]

Thats about the way I see this thread, and the generally feelings towards Chavez on this board by certain members, too.

I have on this board come out numerous times and criticized my govt, esp this current administration. I have also said good things about my govt, which is a lot rarer. However I am overall very proud to be an American citizen and I think our govt, in its own silly way is pretty well run. I have spent the last 8 months living in a country run by 10th graders, so its given me a real appreciation as to the maturity and intelligence of the US Government - and 12 months ago I would have never thought I would ever think a thing like that.

However, there are those folks on here who are so blinded by their hatred of Bush, that they will support anyone who says anything negative about him and about the US in general, ie, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I dont worry about those folks. Their minds are made up - dont confuse them with the facts. I knew the same kinds of folks from the other side that spent 8 years consumed with hatred of Clinton and in the end they just fizzled out and dont have much to say anymore.

I like what US Congressman Charles Rangel had to say when Chavez, ever the mature and intelligent statesman, came to the UN and called Bush satan and said he could still smell the sulphur at the podium where Bush had just given a speech the day before. For those unfamiliar, Rangel is a liberal democrat that represents NYC, places like Harlem and Wash Heights. I cant improve on what he said, so I will just quote it right here. "I want President Chávez to please understand that even though many people in the United States are critical of our president that we resent the fact that he would come to the United States and criticize President Bush... you don't come into my country, you don't come into my congressional district and you don't condemn my president."

Its a shame that more people cant clearly grasp this concept that Rep Rangel stated so eloquently.

If only Bush were legitimately elected. Then we'd have the moral high ground on people like Chavez. ;)

I think that's part of the problem that many Americans are having today. We believe in the "shining city on the hill" aspect of America - the dream as outlined in the Declaration. We believe in the law, as expressed in the Constitution. We want the moral high ground. When we have the kind of government, and the kind of president, we have right now (who called the Constitution "just a goddamn piece of paper"), that becomes impossible.

There's nothing I hate worse than seeing what a pig like Chavez is up to and then realizing there's not much I can say about it because my own government is just as nefarious, dirty, and mendacious. What did Jesus say - first remove the beam from thine own eye?

[sirhcyennek81]

You are the ****ing righty idiot who stereotypes us of having a love affair with Chavez, and then you wonder why the hatred toward those same idiots who put Bush in office. Check your own IQ and Love for our country befroe accusing anyone of misplaced patriotism.


"Stereotype" Oddly enough whenever someone argues with a paragon on the left you immediately get called neocon, rightie, idiot, moron, stupid, retarded, ignorant, ect. Odd considering the left is supposed to be the side that supports "tolerance"

:Broncos:

[sirhcyennek81]

That's so 2003.

You rightards really need to come up with some new straw men.


Like Hitler and Stalin...oh wait...


:Broncos:

[TailgateNut]

"Stereotype" Oddly enough whenever someone argues with a paragon on the left you immediately get called neocon, rightie, idiot, moron, stupid, retarded, ignorant, ect. Odd considering the left is supposed to be the side that supports "tolerance"

:Broncos:

If the shoe fits!

Why should I tolerate anyone who helped put our country in the position it is in at the present time. I'd prefer to erradicate than to tolerate anymore of the BS you and your party have created.

I have no "love" for anyone who helped destroy our country by placing Bush in the drivers seat.

So stupid, ignorant, retarded, destructive, uninformed, unpatriotic and many other descriptions work for me.

[sirhcyennek81]

If only Bush were legitimately elected. Then we'd have the moral high ground on people like Chavez. ;)

I hope this is a joke.


:Broncos:

[TailgateNut]

I hope this is a joke.


:Broncos:

It's not a joke, but we have become a joke to the rest of the world because of his self-destructive policies.

[sirhcyennek81]

If the shoe fits!

Why should I tolerate anyone who helped put our country in the position it is in at the present time. I'd prefer to erradicate than to tolerate anymore of the BS you and your party have created.

I have no "love" for anyone who helped destroy our country by placing Bush in the drivers seat.

So stupid, ignorant, retarded, destructive, uninformed, unpatriotic and many other descriptions work for me.


Dude...1. Don't presume I am republican because I disagree with you. 2. Showing respect when you disagree is a sign of maturity. 3. Don't ignore the history of something simply because of current events, which alot of people on this board seem to do quite often.

I dont care if you are democrat, solicialist, liberal, green, a thetan, whatever. You show me respect and I will do the same. We can disagree, its called "discourse".

:Broncos:

[sirhcyennek81]

It's not a joke, but we have become a joke to the rest of the world because of his self-destructive policies.


Heaven forbid we lose the respect of the Sudan or Iran...run for the hills the Malinese dont like us.


:Broncos:

[TailgateNut]

Heaven forbid we lose the respect of the Sudan or Iran...run for the hills the Malinese dont like us.


:Broncos:

You can't be serious?

[sirhcyennek81]

You can't be serious?


Thats what I'm saying.


:Broncos:

[The Lone Bolt]

Typical right wing mantra (blame the the left for tearing down the country when they question government). A question though, what country has attacked, or participated in attacking two foreign countries in the last week (hint: one in Africa and one in South America)?

According to the above article it's Venezuela who has been attacking Cloumbia with an illegal terrorist proxy war for years. Doesn't that count?

[sirhcyennek81]

According to the above article it's Venezuela who has been attacking Cloumbia with an illegal terrorist proxy war for years. Doesn't that count?


No, because its a leftist darling "battling" American Imperialism.

:Broncos:

[Rohirrim]

I hope this is a joke.


:Broncos:

You mean, like all of your posts?

[TailgateNut]

No, because its a leftist darling "battling" American Imperialism.

:Broncos:

...and you ask for respect?Hilarious!

[cutthemdown]

Where is Beerslug to tell us all how Venezuela is ready to take on Colombia? I just listened to retired gen McCaffery on the radio and his words were quote, "Colombian forces have tons of battle experience from fighting drug runners and leftist rebels the last 20 years. I doubt the Venezuelan forces would be up to a direct confrontation with them. Chavez could try to use his fancy new russian fighters to buzz Bogata, but really outside of that there is nothing he could do. His men would be outgunned and out manned in a regional conflict with Colombia."

[sirhcyennek81]

...and you ask for respect?Hilarious!


It would be funny if it was not a fact.


:Broncos:

[W*GS]

Also, a Venezuelan businessman pleaded guilty in a Florida court to charges of acting as an unauthorised foreign agent. He was one of five people charged by prosecutors with trying to cover up an alleged donation of $800,000 by Venezuela's government to the election campaign of Argentina's president, Cristina Kirchner.

[TailgateNut]

It would be funny if it was not a fact.


:Broncos:

Respect must be earned. I cannot respect anyone who supports this administration in any way!

[sirhcyennek81]

You mean, like all of your posts?


No sense of humor much?


:Broncos:

[sirhcyennek81]

Respect must be earned. I cannot respect anyone who supports this administration in any way!


Uhh...ok? Where did I specifically state I sided with the administration on Colombia/Venezuela/Ecuador?


:Broncos:

[cutthemdown]

Respect must be earned. I cannot respect anyone who supports this administration in any way!

That's ridiculous. How can you not respect that many people. In any way mean on even one issue. I for one have tons of liberal friends that I would do anything for. I don't mix politics with respect. Many of the liberals on this board make good points but this isn't one of them. I doubt you go around showing disrespect to anyone who agrees with Bush on even one issue. If you do then I feel sorry for you. There is more to life then who is in the White House and certainly political affiliation should not be a basis on which a person gives respect to another.

[Rigs11]

Meanwhile...back in the country where we all live.......

[Spider]

Meanwhile...back in the country where we all live.......

Cant do that . much easier to point out other countries **** ups and ignore our own ........Everything is great ........

[W*GS]

I don't see the word "US" in the forum title, Boy Wonder...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Thanks for making his point for him, jagoff.

[W*GS]

LABF to Chavez' rescue, again.

You're a sad joke, LABF.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Show me one post where I have given any opinion, pro or con, re: Chavez' present actions.

That's what a thought.

You are a liar.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

According to the above article it's Venezuela who has been attacking Cloumbia with an illegal terrorist proxy war for years. Doesn't that count?Uh, I'm talking about Columbia (backed by American recon and advisers) attacking Ecuador.
Where is Beerslug to tell us all how Venezuela is ready to take on Colombia? I just listened to retired gen McCaffery on the radio and his words were quote, "Colombian forces have tons of battle experience from fighting drug runners and leftist rebels the last 20 years. I doubt the Venezuelan forces would be up to a direct confrontation with them. Chavez could try to use his fancy new russian fighters to buzz Bogata, but really outside of that there is nothing he could do. His men would be outgunned and out manned in a regional conflict with Colombia."Really, you have a link?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I hope this is a joke.
:Broncos:The joke is people like you who believe he was.

[ant1999e]

That's ridiculous. How can you not respect that many people. In any way mean on even one issue. I for one have tons of liberal friends that I would do anything for. I don't mix politics with respect. Many of the liberals on this board make good points but this isn't one of them. I doubt you go around showing disrespect to anyone who agrees with Bush on even one issue. If you do then I feel sorry for you. There is more to life then who is in the White House and certainly political affiliation should not be a basis on which a person gives respect to another.

Simple. He hates his country.

[ant1999e]

Really, you have a link?

Does it matter? You'll just respond by calling him a bushbot or another one of your immature names.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Does it matter? You'll just respond by calling him a bushbot or another one of your immature names.Uh, you're the one who seems to have only name calling as a retort (don't believe me, read through your posts and then read through mine).

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Simple. He hates his country.

Only in the minds of simpletons like you who can't distinguish between love of country and blind patriotism.

[Rigs11]

I don't see the word "US" in the forum title, Boy Wonder...

I figured you were smart enough to figure it out on your own. My bad...Hilarious!

[Rigs11]

Simple. He hates his country.

Chalk up another limbaugh talking point.Bravo!

[elsid13]

I believe that Chavez is using this opportunity to set himself as the real power player in SA.

As for Columbia action I do believe it was justified since the FRAC is terrorist organization that hold hostages and is well know for the violence and drug trafficking. And if I was in the government shoes then I would probable done the same thing.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I believe that Chavez is using this opportunity to set himself as the real power player in SA.

As for Columbia action I do believe it was justified since the FRAC is terrorist organization that hold hostages and is well know for the violence and drug trafficking. And if I was in the government shoes then I would probable done the same thing.Then you wouldn't have any problem with a foreign country launching a military attack inside our borders because it felt it had just cause?

[elsid13]

Then you wouldn't have any problem with a foreign country launching a military attack inside our borders because it felt it had just cause?

If we were unable to prevent an international recognized terrorist organization operating within our border that was kidnapping people and was engaged in criminal activities. Then the argument could be made that the other country was justified.

Let all be honest, the FARC isn't the boy scouts, and we know that in fighting a guerrilla war that you can not allow an organization like that to have any hiding place.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

If we were unable to prevent an international recognized terrorist organization operating within our border that was kidnapping people and was engaged in criminal activities. Then the argument could be made that the other country was justified.

Let all be honest, the FARC isn't the boy scouts, and we know that in fighting a guerrilla war that you can not allow an organization like that to have any hiding place.So who was killed/injured in the Columbian attack on Ecuador?

BTW, launching an attack in another country for any reason is basically an act of war.

[W*GS]

Show me one post where I have given any opinion, pro or con, re: Chavez' present actions.

That's what a thought.

You are a liar.

Do I really need to provide the link to the post in which you peddled pro-Chavez unadulterated propaganda as some sort of proof that Chavez is such a nice guy?

You've never criticized Chavez. Show me a post in which you have.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Got reading comprehension, dipsh*t?

I said show me where I have given an opinion on Chevez' present actions.

And you are the guy who has the history of parroting right-wing propaganda and disinfo about Chavez here.

If I had a nickel for every lie you've told about Chavez, I'd be Bill Gates.

[ant1999e]

Chalk up another limbaugh talking point.Bravo!

Right on cue with the typical righty response. It's either rush or bill o'liely talking points or I'm a bushbot or how about bush's waterboy. You guys are so original. But unlike you all I form my own opinions and don't need to check the blogs for guidance.

[W*GS]

I said show me where I have given an opinion on Chevez' present actions.

So give one. I expect it won't be any different than the knob-slobbering views of Chavez you've always had.

And you are the guy who has the history of parroting right-wing propaganda and disinfo about Chavez here.

Such as?

Do you really believe that Venezuela has the most free press in the world, as was stated in the "VHeadline" propaganda you attempted to peddle as the truth about Chavez.

If I had a nickel for every lie you've told about Chavez, I'd be Bill Gates.

What lies? Some proof would be nice - instead of your constant barrage of lies.

If I had a penny for every time you covered, spun, rationalized for, and generally fluffed Chavez, I'd buy Gates.

[cutthemdown]

I believe that Chavez is using this opportunity to set himself as the real power player in SA.

As for Columbia action I do believe it was justified since the FRAC is terrorist organization that hold hostages and is well know for the violence and drug trafficking. And if I was in the government shoes then I would probable done the same thing.

The problem is Colombia would wipe the jungle of Venezuela. Military is not always about shiny new jets from Russia and Ak 47's. It's about training the troops and having enough of them. In that regard Colombia dominates.

[cutthemdown]

So who was killed/injured in the Columbian attack on Ecuador?

BTW, launching an attack in another country for any reason is basically an act of war.

Letting people who attack other countries have safe passage in your country is also an act of war. Maybe they need to settle this once and for all.

[cutthemdown]

If Chavez is doing this to show his new military might it's pretty weak. A bunch of crappy looking troops riding busses to the border and some tanks on flat beds isn't going to scare anyone. Especially since tanks are useless in the jungle. Chavez got those tanks for one reason only and that's to use against his own people in the cities someday when he siezes power for good.

[cutthemdown]

This is all good stuff for our military. They get top watch Venezuela and see how well they mobilize and how the command and control works. Not to mention we probably have special forces on the ground in Colombia tagging along with Colombian ones checking everything out. A lot of good information is probably being gathered right now for when we have to kick the crack out of chavez one of these days.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

This is all good stuff for our military. They get top watch Venezuela and see how well they mobilize and how the command and control works. Not to mention we probably have special forces on the ground in Colombia tagging along with Colombian ones checking everything out. A lot of good information is probably being gathered right now for when we have to kick the crack out of chavez one of these days.Ah, some more invasion, killing and war talk, good stuff!

[elsid13]

So who was killed/injured in the Columbian attack on Ecuador?

BTW, launching an attack in another country for any reason is basically an act of war.

They attacked a FARC camp. No one is disputing this, neither Ecuador or Venezuela.

And I see this no different then the action this country took in the early 1900s when Black Jack Pershing was set into Mexico to stop Pancho Villa. At that time neither country declared war on each other.

[cutthemdown]

Ah, some more invasion, killing and war talk, good stuff!

cmon we wouldn't need an invasion for that. Besides Obama will probably win and then we can see if your play nice theories work. If they do work I would be thrilled I would love to see terrorist stop killing people.

I just don't see how taking it to FARC and any country that supports them is bad for America? I mean they kidnap people, sell drugs, kill people, and are not supported by the people who live in Colombia. Those people are happy Uribe is cracking down.

Theres a lot of countries I would not like to see the USA bomb but Venezuela isn't one of them. Ecuador? cmon I didnt even know they were still a country anymore until a few days ago. We would never waste our time with them. Chavez however just seems to be itching for a fight.

If a fight breaks out we won't need to help much though Colombia could more then handle both Venezuela and Ecuador. When you have 100-150 thousand more trained troops it's no contest. Chavez can have all the tanks he wants the wont help him.

[loborugger]

They attacked a FARC camp. No one is disputing this, neither Ecuador or Venezuela.

And I see this no different then the action this country took in the early 1900s when Black Jack Pershing was set into Mexico to stop Pancho Villa. At that time neither country declared war on each other.

This is the first thing I thought of - when Wilson sent Pershing 500 miles into Mexico looking for Villla.

So, I went looking at what the Int'l laws regarding this were. Its a bit ambigious, at best.

Here is a good link on it. The discussion is more about a possible US incursion into Syria to stop crossborder aggression, but it has good back ground and general feelings on the whole thing.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/13440/

It basically works out that incursions are frowned upon and seen as acts of aggression, ie, war. However, nations also have a responibility to not let their soil be used as training grounds or safe havens for terrorist groups. As Colombian entered Ecuadorian soil to whack this dude after their pleas to the Ecuadorian government (along with the VZ govt, for that matter) not to allow their countries to be used as safe havens, I would say both countries have a grievance.

And regarding this term terrorist - I have noticed recently that Chavez has started to refer to the FARC as freedom fighters. I think there is a method to his madness. He is breaking int'l law and giving Colombia a righteous grievance by allowing the FARC free entry and use of his country, however, if he can redefine the FARC as a group of freedom fighters, then his hands are more untied as to what he can and cant do legally.

Again, I believe Chavez wants to give the FARC overt assistance. Uribe and his army have been pushing back the FARC since he came into office. Further the FARC is an ideological companion of his. I think he has been biting his tongue hard about the FARC and not just coming out and saying how he really feels - although this week he has been calling Reyes a hero and calling for a moment of silence over his death.

[TailgateNut]

Simple. He hates his country.
**** you, you little prick. If you want to meet somewhere and have this discussion, I'm up for it.

If not STFU!

Those who constantly carry water for the prick in the white house may hate this country, but I do not.

[24champ]

**** you, you little prick. If you want to meet somewhere and have this discussion, I'm up for it.

If not STFU!



Can't take your own medicine nut?

[TailgateNut]

Can't take your own medicine nut?

Run along, or a better way to put it when dealing with you is, scurry off.
You couldn't stand the heat in the kitchen last time, why would you stick your head in the door now?

[elsid13]

This is the first thing I thought of - when Wilson sent Pershing 500 miles into Mexico looking for Villla.

So, I went looking at what the Int'l laws regarding this were. Its a bit ambigious, at best.

Here is a good link on it. The discussion is more about a possible US incursion into Syria to stop crossborder aggression, but it has good back ground and general feelings on the whole thing.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/13440/

It basically works out that incursions are frowned upon and seen as acts of aggression, ie, war. However, nations also have a responibility to not let their soil be used as training grounds or safe havens for terrorist groups. As Colombian entered Ecuadorian soil to whack this dude after their pleas to the Ecuadorian government (along with the VZ govt, for that matter) not to allow their countries to be used as safe havens, I would say both countries have a grievance.

And regarding this term terrorist - I have noticed recently that Chavez has started to refer to the FARC as freedom fighters. I think there is a method to his madness. He is breaking int'l law and giving Colombia a righteous grievance by allowing the FARC free entry and use of his country, however, if he can redefine the FARC as a group of freedom fighters, then his hands are more untied as to what he can and cant do legally.

Again, I believe Chavez wants to give the FARC overt assistance. Uribe and his army have been pushing back the FARC since he came into office. Further the FARC is an ideological companion of his. I think he has been biting his tongue hard about the FARC and not just coming out and saying how he really feels - although this week he has been calling Reyes a hero and calling for a moment of silence over his death.

I think we're are on same since this is the argument that Columbia is making about the attack "Uribe has defended the attack as necessary given Ecuador's inaction against Colombian rebel camps in its territory. Colombia complains that rebels take refuge across the border in Ecuador and Venezuela and has accused their leftist leaders of backing the fighters — a claim the leaders deny." Source http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080307/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_venezuela

Unfortunately Chavez isn't stupid, but is crazy enough to attempt to destabilize Columbia for his own personal gains

[24champ]

Run along, or a better way to put it when dealing with you is, scurry off.
You couldn't stand the heat in the kitchen last time, why would you stick your head in the door now?

I'm sorry I just find it hilarious that you are pitching a fit because someone made similar remarks to you that you made to me a couple months ago.


Also I request that you do not PM me anymore 'Nut. I respond and get PMs from people worth my time.

[Rohirrim]

This is the first thing I thought of - when Wilson sent Pershing 500 miles into Mexico looking for Villla.

So, I went looking at what the Int'l laws regarding this were. Its a bit ambigious, at best.

Here is a good link on it. The discussion is more about a possible US incursion into Syria to stop crossborder aggression, but it has good back ground and general feelings on the whole thing.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/13440/

It basically works out that incursions are frowned upon and seen as acts of aggression, ie, war. However, nations also have a responibility to not let their soil be used as training grounds or safe havens for terrorist groups. As Colombian entered Ecuadorian soil to whack this dude after their pleas to the Ecuadorian government (along with the VZ govt, for that matter) not to allow their countries to be used as safe havens, I would say both countries have a grievance.

And regarding this term terrorist - I have noticed recently that Chavez has started to refer to the FARC as freedom fighters. I think there is a method to his madness. He is breaking int'l law and giving Colombia a righteous grievance by allowing the FARC free entry and use of his country, however, if he can redefine the FARC as a group of freedom fighters, then his hands are more untied as to what he can and cant do legally.

Again, I believe Chavez wants to give the FARC overt assistance. Uribe and his army have been pushing back the FARC since he came into office. Further the FARC is an ideological companion of his. I think he has been biting his tongue hard about the FARC and not just coming out and saying how he really feels - although this week he has been calling Reyes a hero and calling for a moment of silence over his death.

IIRC, Pershing was sent into Mexico to get Villa after Villa's forces had swept into Columbus, New Mexico and massacred 18 Americans while looting the town for food, money and weapons. Carranza could do nothing about it. What nation would sit idly by while its neighbor harbored and supported terrorists like the FARC?

That they [FARC] have committed terrorist acts is certain. Earlier this month whilst battling their hated enemies - the right wing paramilitaries - they dropped a bomb on the church of Bojayá in the western province of Chocó.

Terrified townsfolk had taken shelter from the combat in the building. A total of 119 civilians in the church were killed - almost half of them children.


Also, a true "freedom fighter" movement would have the support of the people of Columbia. FARC does not.

In national surveys the FARC never poll more than 5% of public support, and that for all the imperfections in its political system, Colombia is a democracy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1998304.stm

Chavez is a an authoritarian, anti-democratic, Marxist pig. Hopefully, somebody whacks the rat bastard. Still, there is no reason for the U.S. to be sticking its nose down there. What would diffuse the situation much more than anything else would be for us to stop this ridiculous, failed war on drugs. The price of cocaine would plummet and the FARC would be out of business. They are not freedom fighters. They are drug thugs, murderers and terrorists.

[loborugger]

IIRC, Pershing was sent into Mexico to get Villa after Villa's forces had swept into Columbus, New Mexico and massacred 18 Americans while looting the town for food, money and weapons. Carranza could do nothing about it. What nation would sit idly by while its neighbor harbored and supported terrorists like the FARC?


I agree whole-heartedly. And while Villa made a couple other incursions across the US border, the raid at Columbus was the most known and most bloody.

I think, actually, that the Colombian govt has been surprisingly patient when considering the situation. The US chased Villa after a couple of raids. The crap that the FARC has been doing has gone on for decades. They have used neighboring countries as safe havens and more for years. They have murdered thousands, kipnapped hundreds, left bombs in public places, and lobbed hand grenades into popular night clubs. That Colombia waited as long as it has to strike speaks a lot.

Additionally, Colombia apologized for the event - closing the barn door after letting the horse run off, no doubt - and in response to the war escalations of the Chavez, they have done nothing. In fact, they have publicly stated they wont send any troops to the border, they wont respond, and they have left their ambassadors in place.

Its a good thing Chavez has declared that he - the uninjuried party - wants peace. Otherwise, we might be confused by all his other statements and actions.

[Rohirrim]

I agree whole-heartedly. And while Villa made a couple other incursions across the US border, the raid at Columbus was the most known and most bloody.

I think, actually, that the Colombian govt has been surprisingly patient when considering the situation. The US chased Villa after a couple of raids. The crap that the FARC has been doing has gone on for decades. They have used neighboring countries as safe havens and more for years. They have murdered thousands, kipnapped hundreds, left bombs in public places, and lobbed hand grenades into popular night clubs. That Colombia waited as long as it has to strike speaks a lot.

Additionally, Colombia apologized for the event - closing the barn door after letting the horse run off, no doubt - and in response to the war escalations of the Chavez, they have done nothing. In fact, they have publicly stated they wont send any troops to the border, they wont respond, and they have left their ambassadors in place.

Its a good thing Chavez has declared that he - the uninjuried party - wants peace. Otherwise, we might be confused by all his other statements and actions.

Chavez is nothing more than a posturing clown. I'm sure the Columbians knew all along that he was nothing but bluff. I imagine the only reason Chavez is even blustering now is so he has an excuse to seize Columbian assets in Venezuela for himself under the cover of "nationalization in the interests of the people's deepest wishes" or some such rhetorical cloud of bs.

[elsid13]

Chavez is nothing more than a posturing clown. I'm sure the Columbians knew all along that he was nothing but bluff. I imagine the only reason Chavez is even blustering now is so he has an excuse to seize Columbian assets in Venezuela for himself under the cover of "nationalization in the interests of the people's deepest wishes" or some such rhetorical cloud of bs.

That I think is the real motivation behind this little act. The funny thing is the common Venezuelan folks are the one that are going to suffer as the basic imported food supply from Columbia drys up.

[TailgateNut]

I'm sorry I just find it hilarious that you are pitching a fit because someone made similar remarks to you that you made to me a couple months ago.


Also I request that you do not PM me anymore 'Nut. I respond and get PMs from people worth my time.


I made the remarks to/about you due to your yellow streak/ err medical deferrment :rofl:, while you beat the war drums. But I should just consider that par for the course for Republican cowards. Just like their fearless :rofl: leaders. They love war, as long as they are thousands of miles away.

[loborugger]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080307/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_venezuela

Uribe has announced from the intell gathered during the raid that the rebels helped get Correa - the Pres of Ecuador - elected. Nice. Even if its true, I just dont know that I would announce that if I was the Pres of Colombia. No one who doesnt want to believe is going to and its just going to fuel the fire.

I think those lap tops and the other intell seized was probably the real pay off of that raid, not whacking one knucklehead. It will be a wealth of intell for probably years to come for the Colombians. However, the "facts" found on those lap tops will be disputed for years as Chavez and his goons will cry fabrication from here on out. And probably send a few more troops to the border in response.

The facts of this case for most international entities involved will totally depend on which side you support, I imagine.

[Rohirrim]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080307/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_venezuela

Uribe has announced from the intell gathered during the raid that the rebels helped get Correa - the Pres of Ecuador - elected. Nice. Even if its true, I just dont know that I would announce that if I was the Pres of Colombia. No one who doesnt want to believe is going to and its just going to fuel the fire.

I think those lap tops and the other intell seized was probably the real pay off of that raid, not whacking one knucklehead. It will be a wealth of intell for probably years to come for the Colombians. However, the "facts" found on those lap tops will be disputed for years as Chavez and his goons will cry fabrication from here on out. And probably send a few more troops to the border in response.

The facts of this case for most international entities involved will totally depend on which side you support, I imagine.

Methinks Correa doth protest too much. Sounds like a prostitute defending her chastity. :rofl:

[ant1999e]

**** you, you little prick. If you want to meet somewhere and have this discussion, I'm up for it.

If not STFU!

Those who constantly carry water for the prick in the white house may hate this country, but I do not.

I would like to openly apoligize to Tailgate for saying he hates his country. I am sure he loves our great land and if I'm not mistaken he served in the military. What I should have said is he doesn't respect a majority of the voters in the U.S.

P.S. I'm not apologizing out of fear for my life the next time I visit my parents in Thornton but because I do respect Tailgate and his views regardless of how ass backwards they are.

[Rohirrim]

I would like to openly apoligize to Tailgate for saying he hates his country. I am sure he loves our great land and if I'm not mistaken he served in the military. What I should have said is he doesn't respect a majority of the voters in the U.S.

P.S. I'm not apologizing out of fear for my life the next time I visit my parents in Thornton but because I do respect Tailgate and his views regardless of how ass backwards they are.

If I remember correctly, Tailgate was a chopper pilot. You don't **** with those guys. They're nuts. ;D

[TailgateNut]

I would like to openly apoligize to Tailgate for saying he hates his country. I am sure he loves our great land and if I'm not mistaken he served in the military. What I should have said is he doesn't respect a majority of the voters in the U.S.

P.S. I'm not apologizing out of fear for my life the next time I visit my parents in Thornton but because I do respect Tailgate and his views regardless of how ass backwards they are.

LOL

The majority of voters? Talk about ass backwards. ROFL!

[ant1999e]

LOL

The majority of voters? Talk about ass backwards. ROFL!

He was elected twice right? It does take a majority to win doesn't it?

[Rigs11]

He was elected twice right? It does take a majority to win doesn't it?

Nope, it takes the supreme court. How quickly you forget.

[Rigs11]

Right on cue with the typical righty response. It's either rush or bill o'liely talking points or I'm a bushbot or how about bush's waterboy. You guys are so original. But unlike you all I form my own opinions and don't need to check the blogs for guidance.

Stop spewing out the usual right wing rhetoric that we hate our country and you will stop being called out on it.

[TailgateNut]

He was elected twice right? It does take a majority to win doesn't it?


...again with comprehension/ memory lapses. ...and you wonder why righties are called morons?

[cutthemdown]

**** you, you little prick. If you want to meet somewhere and have this discussion, I'm up for it.

If not STFU!

Those who constantly carry water for the prick in the white house may hate this country, but I do not.

Wow looks like he pissed he off. Anytime you make threats you pretty much lose the argument, even one as baseless as saying you hate your country. For the record I don't think you lefties hate America. I just think you hate Bush so much it seems like you do. Either way we better hope the next president brings people together or we are in for a long 4 yrs.

[cutthemdown]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080307/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_venezuela

Uribe has announced from the intell gathered during the raid that the rebels helped get Correa - the Pres of Ecuador - elected. Nice. Even if its true, I just dont know that I would announce that if I was the Pres of Colombia. No one who doesnt want to believe is going to and its just going to fuel the fire.

I think those lap tops and the other intell seized was probably the real pay off of that raid, not whacking one knucklehead. It will be a wealth of intell for probably years to come for the Colombians. However, the "facts" found on those lap tops will be disputed for years as Chavez and his goons will cry fabrication from here on out. And probably send a few more troops to the border in response.

The facts of this case for most international entities involved will totally depend on which side you support, I imagine.

Uribe probably only worries about what the USA thinks not other South American countries. USA is the one giving him millions of dollars. If Uribe and USA can convince the EU that the attack was justified then countries like Brazil will come around also. Sure leftist like Nicaruaga won't but who really cares? Colombia would only worry about something that might get the flood of cash turned off.

[TailgateNut]

Colombia would only worry about something that might get the flood of cash turned off.

They wouldn't want the CIA to stop buying their Cocaine.

[cutthemdown]

They wouldn't want the CIA to stop buying their Cocaine.

The CIA doesn't buy cocaine, they trade weapons for it, then sell the coke in USA to fund there covert operations.

[TailgateNut]

The CIA doesn't buy cocaine, they trade weapons for it, then sell the coke in USA to fund there covert operations.


It's all the same in the end. Buy/ trade/ barter. One fugged up system.

[yavoon]

I see the left is getting touchy for its hatred of america again.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

They attacked a FARC camp. No one is disputing this, neither Ecuador or Venezuela.

And I see this no different then the action this country took in the early 1900s when Black Jack Pershing was set into Mexico to stop Pancho Villa. At that time neither country declared war on each other.So what, if ANY country launched attack inside our borders for any reason the U.S. would call it an act of war, this isn't the early 1900s.

And you didn't answer my question, who was killed and injured in that attack?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

For the record I don't think you lefties hate America. I just think you hate Bush so much it seems like you do.

Only if you fail to make a distinction (either deliberately or due to sheer stupidity) between Bush (or any other president) and America.

I mean, have you ever heard a Democrat or a liberal try to argue that right-wingers who hate Clinton hate America?

It's a stupid, bullsh*t tactic.

[baja]

Ya and they don't say the hate blow jobs either. Maybe they just hate blow jobs from girls...

[elsid13]

So what, if ANY country launched attack inside our borders for any reason the U.S. would call it an act of war, this isn't the early 1900s.

And you didn't answer my question, who was killed and injured in that attack?

loborugger posted a very good reference material about internal law and this type of attack. If US was unable non sanction foreign terrorist organization that was attacking cross border to injury/kill other country citizen and using our country as staging point that it would be justified.

And to second question - it appears those killed were on active participates of the FARC, is there something you want to share?

[Spider]

I would like to openly apoligize to Tailgate for saying he hates his country. I am sure he loves our great land and if I'm not mistaken he served in the military. What I should have said is he doesn't respect a majority of the voters in the U.S.

P.S. I'm not apologizing out of fear for my life the next time I visit my parents in Thornton but because I do respect Tailgate and his views regardless of how ass backwards they are.

good to see you step up ;D.... I knew you would , Thats why I like you ...... Save the you hate bush you hate America for Idiots like Yavoon ,you are smarter then that .......

[Spider]

Ya and they don't say the hate blow jobs either. Maybe they just hate blow jobs from girls...

LOL for some reason , your line of , I did not suck that womans dick keeps replaying in my mind ;D that was classic

[Spider]

Only if you fail to make a distinction (either deliberately or due to sheer stupidity) between Bush (or any other president) and America.

I mean, have you ever heard a Democrat or a liberal try to argue that right-wingers who hate Clinton hate America?

It's a stupid, bullsh*t tactic.

Saw Karl Rove on the O'Rielly bull****ting hour , Ole Rove was singing McCains praises for the Black baby .....Irony meter wen right through the roof ...

[Bronco_Beerslug]

loborugger posted a very good reference material about internal law and this type of attack. If US was unable non sanction foreign terrorist organization that was attacking cross border to injury/kill other country citizen and using our country as staging point that it would be justified.

And to second question - it appears those killed were on active participates of the FARC, is there something you want to share?So they were justified launching an attack into another country, killing at least one college student and wounding at least one more student? And you didn't answer the question on what the U.S. would call an attack on our country by another country.

[elsid13]

So they were justified launching an attack into another country, killing at least one college student and wounding at least one more student? And you didn't answer the question on what the U.S. would call an attack on our country by another country.

Those college students choose to be there, no one forced them to be there. That the risk they took when decide to supports those terrorists. I am sorry thier dumb asses are dead, but if you want to play with the bad guys, then you can not run back to mommy and daddy crying it not fair when the people that have been attacked decided to fight back.

And to other question, I have answered the question several times where it would be theoretical justified where a country could attack the US, if certain conditions where meet like in the case in Ecuador. That is theoretical question that has no place in this discussion. This discussion is did Columbia do the the right to protect its citizens.

The question I have for you do you feel that Columbia was unjustified for attacking a world recognized terrorist organization that the government Ecuador was unable or unwilling to stop them for using their territory to hurt innocent people in Columbia? Columbia attacked Command Control elements of the FARC military arm, isn't that justified and legitimate target?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Those college students choose to be there, no one forced them to be there. That the risk they took when decide to supports those terrorists. I am sorry thier dumb asses are dead, but if you want to play with the bad guys, then you can not run back to mommy and daddy crying it not fair when the people that have been attacked decided to fight back.

And to other question, I have answered the question several times where it would be theoretical justified where a country could attack the US, if certain conditions where meet like in the case in Ecuador. That is theoretical question that has no place in this discussion. This discussion is did Columbia do the the right to protect its citizens.

The question I have for you do you feel that Columbia was unjustified for attacking a world recognized terrorist organization that the government Ecuador was unable or unwilling to stop them for using their territory to hurt innocent people in Columbia? Columbia attacked Command Control elements of the FARC military arm, isn't that justified and legitimate target?Did they, on whose account of events? And of course the U.S. would MOST definitely call any attack on our country for ANY reason by a foreign nation an act of war.

And so, it's OK to kill in an attack on another country because the intell you have suggests that you may also get lucky and kill a desired target also.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

For a guy who claims to be a "Democrat," Elsid sure sounds like just another right-wing apologist.

[W*GS]

Beerslug, why are you standing up for the FARC? It's quite clear that both Ecuador and Venezuela were giving refuge and support to those thugs - do you expect Colombia to stand idly by and do nothing because the FARC leadership hides out 1 1/4 miles inside Ecuador?

You do realize what FARC was doing in Colombia, don't you?

[24champ]

For a guy who claims to be a "Democrat," Elsid sure sounds like just another right-wing apologist.

Anyone that disagrees with you is a right-wing apologist. What else is new?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Anyone that disagrees with you is a right-wing apologist. What else is new?

He's not a right-wing apologist because he disagrees with me - I said he sounded like a right-wing apologist because his takes on this particular issue are practically indistinguishable from those of the right-wingers.

But when have you ever let subtle distinctions like these keep you from distorting the truth in an attempt to score imaginary points?

[cutthemdown]

There is no right or wrong in a situation like this. When it comes to attacking another country it's never been about rules or right and wrong. You can cite international law blah blah blah but we all know thats crap. If a country decides its in their best interests to attack its not a right you are given. Its a right you take. In war power makes right.

Colombia decided it was worth it because Reyes was a huge target. They knew it would cause an uproar but they didn't care. If Ecuador wants to they can attack, but they have no power, hence they can't. If Colombia felt Ecuador and Venezuela had enough power to actually attack then they wouldn't have done it.

[cutthemdown]

Trust me if Chavez had 100 thousand more trained troops it may have been different. As it is Colombia drwarfs them so there isnt much you can do.

[elsid13]

Did they, on whose account of events? And of course the U.S. would MOST definitely call any attack on our country for ANY reason by a foreign nation an act of war.

And so, it's OK to kill in an attack on another country because the intell you have suggests that you may also get lucky and kill a desired target also.

The College students were supporting the FARC, it was reported on ABC news video. I will attempt to find it.

And you didn't answer my question, since I answered yours.

[elsid13]

For a guy who claims to be a "Democrat," Elsid sure sounds like just another right-wing apologist.


I treat this action no different then when Clinton attacked Afghanistan or Sudan(it's little earlier in the morning so might be another African country) going after Al-Qaeda. I support his move there why shouldn't I support this move

It not about being republican or democrat. It about the right of country to protect itself from terrorist organization. If a neighbor is unable or unwilling(or give support to the organization) then I believe a country has the right of self defense.

Do you not think that Columbia should have attacked a FARC military camp

[cutthemdown]

I try this action no different then when Clinton attacked Afghanistan or Sudan(it's little earlier in the morning so might be another African country) going after Al-Qaeda. I support his move there why shouldn't I support this move

It not about being republican or democrat. It about the right of country to protect itself from terrorist organization. If a neighbor is unable or unwilling(or give support to the organization) then I believe a country has the right of self defense.

Do you not think that Columbia should have attacked a FARC military camp

That's exactly what he thinks. He doesn't understand that being a democrat doesn't mean you can't also be tough on terrorists and heavy handed when it comes to dealing with them. Clinton wasn't as heavy handed as Bush has been but then again when Bin Laden bombed the WTC under Clinton it didn't fall down. Also Clinton loved to bomb Saddam and probably thought it was cool he got hung. Clinton carpet bombed Serbia with no mercy.

Ecuador got exactly what they deserved. You can't let rebels set up in your jungle 1 mile from the border and not do anything. Eventually the other country will get pissed and have to do something. How long would an AMerican president last if he let a left wing american rebel group set up camp 2 miles from the border in mexico. Then they start kidnapping texas ranchers and holding them in the desert for 10 yrs. You think we wouldnt go into mexico and handle that? Of course we would.

[cutthemdown]

what happened is Colombia didn't have a strong leader until Uribe. This guy ain't screwing around. He is sending a message that Farc is done and on the run. They have lost over 35% of there rebels to being killed, low recruitment, and defections. He is telling Ecuador and Venezuela that the game is over, he knows they are helping them. By attacking into Ecuador and having it be so succesfull. I mean its almost Israeli like in that they went in, killled, and got the body to prove it. I mean thats some good work and I for one am impressed.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Beerslug, why are you standing up for the FARC? It's quite clear that both Ecuador and Venezuela were giving refuge and support to those thugs - do you expect Colombia to stand idly by and do nothing because the FARC leadership hides out 1 1/4 miles inside Ecuador?

You do realize what FARC was doing in Colombia, don't you?I'm standing up for no one, only asking why attacking another country isn't considered an act of war in their eyes. I guarantee you, if ANY country attacked us inside our country for ANY reason it, without question, would be considered an act of war.
The College students were supporting the FARC, it was reported on ABC news video. I will attempt to find it.
And you didn't answer my question, since I answered yours.They say they weren't so who is being honest and who is lying, how do you know?

[W*GS]

I'm standing up for no one, only asking why attacking another country isn't considered an act of war in their eyes. I guarantee you, if ANY country attacked us inside our country for ANY reason it, without question, would be considered an act of war.

Ecuador wasn't attacked; a criminal thug who was part of the leadership of a group of drug-running murderous scumbags who attacked Colombians was taken out by Colombia.

If such a person and group were committing the same crimes against Americans and then hid 1 1/4 miles inside Mexico, what would you prefer the US do? Nothing?

[loborugger]

I guarantee you, if ANY country attacked us inside our country for ANY reason it, without question, would be considered an act of war.


So, when Mexican Army Humvees shoot up Border Patrol rigs and turn them into Swiss Cheese, that is an act of war, right? And you are ready to march on Mexico City, correct?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ecuador wasn't attacked; a criminal thug who was part of the leadership of a group of drug-running murderous scumbags who attacked Colombians was taken out by Colombia.

If such a person and group were committing the same crimes against Americans and then hid 1 1/4 miles inside Mexico, what would you prefer the US do? Nothing?Columbia's attack was a violation of Eucador's sovereignty. International law does not allow for military engagement into another country you aren't at war with (or engaged in a "hot pursuit").

But the biggest point not being discussed is... here is the U.S. once again, participating in another military attack on a foreign country. Haven't people had enough of this yet?

[W*GS]

Columbia's attack was a violation of Eucador's sovereignty.

Ecuador's hosting and support of FARC criminals was a violation of Colombia's sovreignity.

International law does not allow for military engagement into another country you aren't at war with (or engaged in a "hot pursuit").

International law shouldn't allow murderous thugs whose intent is to destabilize a legitimate government safe refuge in a 3rd country. Do you believe it should?

But the biggest point not being discussed is... here is the U.S. once again, participating in another military attack on a foreign country. Haven't people had enough of this yet?

It wasn't an attack on Ecuador, dope.

Why are you spinning for FARC?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ecuador's hosting and support of FARC criminals was a violation of Colombia's sovreignity. Uh, no.


International law shouldn't allow murderous thugs whose intent is to destabilize a legitimate government safe refuge in a 3rd country. Do you believe it should?It doesn't and allows for diplomatic solutions.


It wasn't an attack on Ecuador, dope.
Why are you spinning for FARC?Ah, reduced to name calling? I started this conversation by asking what country had participated on attacks on two foreign countries in the last week.
And I ask again, when are people going to get tired of the U.S. trying to police the world?

I remember you saying you are more than once.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ah, reduced to name calling?

From the safety of his computer. ;)

[W*GS]

BB, if such a person and group were committing the same crimes against Americans and then hid 1 1/4 miles inside Mexico, what would you prefer the US do? Nothing?

[W*GS]

LABF's still mad that I beat the cyber**** out of 'im...

[elsid13]

They say they weren't so who is being honest and who is lying, how do you know?

There in the camp full of thugs and murders, isn't reasonable to expect that there is risk with thier dumb ass being there?

[elsid13]

It should be pointed that Columbia supposes repeatable asked Ecuador to suppress the FARC camps in the region, and for what reason Ecuador failed to do so.

[Rohirrim]

I've read all the major media reports on this attack on the FARC camp in Ecuador and have yet to see the U.S. mentioned as having been a participant.

[ant1999e]

Columbia's attack was a violation of Eucador's sovereignty. International law does not allow for military engagement into another country you aren't at war with (or engaged in a "hot pursuit").

But the biggest point not being discussed is... here is the U.S. once again, participating in another military attack on a foreign country. Haven't people had enough of this yet?
LOL
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN03374614

Yeah, we should just mind our own business.

[Spider]

So, when Mexican Army Humvees shoot up Border Patrol rigs and turn them into Swiss Cheese, that is an act of war, right? And you are ready to march on Mexico City, correct?

Huh ? are you saying FARC is part of Ecuadors Military ?

[ant1999e]

Huh ? are you saying FARC is part of Ecuadors Military ?

I'm thinking you're smarter than that and get the point. If a hypothetical guerilla army let's call them The LABF (Liberal Army of Bitter Fools) was attacking the U.S. and then hiding in Mexico and the Mexican government was doing nothing to stop them, would we have a right to bomb one of their camps in Mexico? Kind of like we bombed that asprin factory in Sudan.

[Rohirrim]

Huh ? are you saying FARC is part of Ecuadors Military ?

What FARC was doing was giving lots of drug money to Correa and Chavez in return for refuge while they attacked Columbia. **** 'em. They deserved what they got.

[Spider]

I'm thinking you're smarter than that and get the point. If a hypothetical guerilla army let's call them The LABF (Liberal Army of Bitter Fools) was attacking the U.S. and then hiding in Mexico and the Mexican government was doing nothing to stop them, would we have a right to bomb one of their camps in Mexico? Kind of like we bombed that asprin factory in Sudan.

yeah but Lobo clearly implicated the Mexican army ...... but on to the point . if a guerllia army was in Mexico attacking the boarder towns on the American side ........Bombing would be an option but not the only option

[Spider]

What FARC was doing was giving lots of drug money to Correa and Chavez in return for refuge while they attacked Columbia. **** 'em. They deserved what they got.

I am not defending FARC , just setting their status in all of this ..... Personaly I could care less about them , or their enemies

[loborugger]

Huh ? are you saying FARC is part of Ecuadors Military ?

The 2 are unrelated.

I was responding to BB's post about any violations at any time of our borders by the armed forces of any country would be an act of war.

I simply pointed out what is known by anyone that has lived along the border, or reads the reports from Border Patrol agents, or hears the stories of startled sheriffs who come around the bend and see Mexican Humvees and Mexican Soldiers on our side of the border (undoubtedly protecting some illegal cargo of drugs or aliens) with enough fire power to take over a small TX town. Our border is regularly crossed by armed Mexican troops.

However, to answer the question. The FARC isnt part of the Ecuadorian Army. The FARC is a band of thugs making lots of money and hiding behind the venure of being communist rebels. The Country of Colombia has been pressing the FARC hard recently. To deal with this, the FARC has taken up refuge in the near by countries of Ven and Ecuador. These countries just happen to have governments that are far left and sympathetic to the thugs.

So, no, the FARC isnt the Ecuadorian Army. If you are a Colombian, its worse than that. Its a band of turds that attack you an then withdraw across a line on a map for sanctuary and as a Colombian you are supposed to sit idly on your hands and wait for the next explosion in Bogota or your neighbor to be kidnapped and then chase the goons back to the border again. At least if it was the Ecuadorian Army you could chase them all the way to Quito.

[cutthemdown]

LOL at rules for attacking? The only thing that gives a country the right to attack is POWER!!! There are no rules, international law that deals with war is a joke. FARC/ECUADOR/VENEZUELA got what they got because right now Colombia has more power then them. Fueled largly by population and support from the USA military and CIA.

[Spider]

The 2 are unrelated.

I was responding to BB's post about any violations at any time of our borders by the armed forces of any country would be an act of war.

I simply pointed out what is known by anyone that has lived along the border, or reads the reports from Border Patrol agents, or hears the stories of startled sheriffs who come around the bend and see Mexican Humvees and Mexican Soldiers on our side of the border (undoubtedly protecting some illegal cargo of drugs or aliens) with enough fire power to take over a small TX town. Our border is regularly crossed by armed Mexican troops.

However, to answer the question. The FARC isnt part of the Ecuadorian Army. The FARC is a band of thugs making lots of money and hiding behind the venure of being communist rebels. The Country of Colombia has been pressing the FARC hard recently. To deal with this, the FARC has taken up refuge in the near by countries of Ven and Ecuador. These countries just happen to have governments that are far left and sympathetic to the thugs.

So, no, the FARC isnt the Ecuadorian Army. If you are a Colombian, its worse than that. Its a band of turds that attack you an then withdraw across a line on a map for sanctuary and as a Colombian you are supposed to sit idly on your hands and wait for the next explosion in Bogota or your neighbor to be kidnapped and then chase the goons back to the border again. At least if it was the Ecuadorian Army you could chase them all the way to Quito.

My bad ..... I thought you was making a case for FARC being military .... teach me for responding without reading everything ;D

[elsid13]

My bad ..... I thought you was making a case for FARC being military .... teach me for responding without reading everything ;D

Like little thing like reading would ever stop you ;D

[loborugger]

My bad ..... I thought you was making a case for FARC being military .... teach me for responding without reading everything ;D

You mean you dont hang on my every word, waiting like a school girl for my next posting??? I am heartbroken!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

BB, if such a person and group were committing the same crimes against Americans and then hid 1 1/4 miles inside Mexico, what would you prefer the US do? Nothing?Give them an ultimatum, either round them up or we will (fair and advanced notice of our intentions). Military attacks on/in foreign countries should be the absolutely last, last resort.

We are currently attacking at least two African nations with missile attacks in the guise of killing al qaida operatives (regime change is probably the main reason).

[W*GS]

WTF do you think Colombia has been doing during Uribe's tenure, BB?

Ecuador's and Venezuela's inaction against FARC - and their outright support of FARC - put Colombia in the position it was in.

No way is it fair to criticize Colombia for doing the right thing.

[alkemical]

LOL at rules for attacking? The only thing that gives a country the right to attack is POWER!!! There are no rules, international law that deals with war is a joke. FARC/ECUADOR/VENEZUELA got what they got because right now Colombia has more power then them. Fueled largly by population and support from the USA military and CIA.


Hey JayZ thanks Bush & Clinton for giving him some good product to sell to help him to where he got know.

[W*GS]

The latest:

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/30/world/americas/30colombia.html">Files From Colombians Point to Venezuelan Bid to Arm Rebels</a>

[Spider]

Venezuela army creates the same amount of Fear as a runner being tackled by Dre Bly , might as well send in Barney with a BB gun ..........
though I can see France saying ..... Barney with a BB gun ...We surrender

[Spider]

Like little thing like reading would ever stop you ;D

;D Kiss my what ?

[Spider]

You mean you dont hang on my every word, waiting like a school girl for my next posting??? I am heartbroken!

LOL

[loborugger]

Venezuela army creates the same amount of Fear as a runner being tackled by Dre Bly , might as well send in Barney with a BB gun ..........
though I can see France saying ..... Barney with a BB gun ...We surrender

To a certain degree, I agree with you - except about France. Barney wouldnt need a BB gun. Anyways, back on point, while this guy is a nut with visions of conquest in his eyes, fortunately he didnt inherit the Prussian Army.

However, in a region devoid of significant military power, I think he is a large problem.

Rumors down here in South America is that the Shining Path is back in action, and much like the FARC, they have given up on their commy ideals & have decided to go the route of drug thugs (there was a really good LA Times article on this last week). Additionally, rumors are they are backed by Senor Chavez.

Additionally, there is a large complex being built in La Paz, and its being referred to as a "4 nation embassy" (whatever the hell that is). The four nations are Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and of course, Venezuela. Its being built with Chavez's money. However, the Peruvians claim they have evidence that its being used as a training ground for insurgents - that are being funneled into Peru amongst other places.

Basically, you have two nations in the Andes region - Colombia and Peru - that dont stand with Chavez. And in both cases, Senor Ding-dong appears to be undercutting both nations by funding rebellions in their country. And while the popular cry is that Colombia stands with the US, so you cant believe anything that comes out of there, no one can credibly argue that Peru is a puppet of the US.

So, Chavez is using his dinero and other people's blood, instead of his army in an attempt to bring the whole region under his sway. He has visions of being Simon Bolivar - and Bolivar once hoped to unite the whole Andes under his banner.

Additionally, Chavez is playing in Coke country. The three coke producing nations in the world are Colombia, Peru, and Bolivia (in order of production). He already has Bolivia in his hip pocket, and coke production here is taking off. He is making a play for Colombia (via the FARC) and I think in the coming years it will come out that he is making a play for Peru, too.

Many credible reports from a number of sources indicate that the Ven govt is turning a blind eye to Coke trafficking and the army is involved in coke trafficking and pocketing the proceeds.

What better way to take on your enemy (the US and to a lesser extent Europe) than by allowing them to fund your fight (via oil and coke) to undermine your enemies interests in the region and build a multi-nation powerbase?

So, while Mr Bombastic might not be a boogey man here and now, he has the potential to be a large pain in the arse in the coming decades if things go his way.

[Spider]

To a certain degree, I agree with you - except about France. Barney wouldnt need a BB gun. Anyways, back on point, while this guy is a nut with visions of conquest in his eyes, fortunately he didnt inherit the Prussian Army.

However, in a region devoid of significant military power, I think he is a large problem.

Rumors down here in South America is that the Shining Path is back in action, and much like the FARC, they have given up on their commy ideals & have decided to go the route of drug thugs (there was a really good LA Times article on this last week). Additionally, rumors are they are backed by Senor Chavez.

Additionally, there is a large complex being built in La Paz, and its being referred to as a "4 nation embassy" (whatever the hell that is). The four nations are Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and of course, Venezuela. Its being built with Chavez's money. However, the Peruvians claim they have evidence that its being used as a training ground for insurgents - that are being funneled into Peru amongst other places.

Basically, you have two nations in the Andes region - Colombia and Peru - that dont stand with Chavez. And in both cases, Senor Ding-dong appears to be undercutting both nations by funding rebellions in their country. And while the popular cry is that Colombia stands with the US, so you cant believe anything that comes out of there, no one can credibly argue that Peru is a puppet of the US.

So, Chavez is using his dinero and other people's blood, instead of his army in an attempt to bring the whole region under his sway. He has visions of being Simon Bolivar - and Bolivar once hoped to unite the whole Andes under his banner.

Additionally, Chavez is playing in Coke country. The three coke producing nations in the world are Colombia, Peru, and Bolivia (in order of production). He already has Bolivia in his hip pocket, and coke production here is taking off. He is making a play for Colombia (via the FARC) and I think in the coming years it will come out that he is making a play for Peru, too.

Many credible reports from a number of sources indicate that the Ven govt is turning a blind eye to Coke trafficking and the army is involved in coke trafficking and pocketing the proceeds.

What better way to take on your enemy (the US and to a lesser extent Europe) than by allowing them to fund your fight (via oil and coke) to undermine your enemies interests in the region and build a multi-nation powerbase?

So, while Mr Bombastic might not be a boogey man here and now, he has the potential to be a large pain in the arse in the coming decades if things go his way.

I see what you are saying .........Yo quirro Taco bell ;D

[yavoon]

The latest:

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/30/world/americas/30colombia.html">Files From Colombians Point to Venezuelan Bid to Arm Rebels</a>

I hear the only reason venezuela re-normalized relations with colombia is on a promise not to reveal more about what was in the computers.

[loborugger]

I hear the only reason venezuela re-normalized relations with colombia is on a promise not to reveal more about what was in the computers.

That, and under Chavez's wonderful socialist (mis)management, his country is now dependent upon Colombia for food.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

That, and under Chavez's wonderful socialist (mis)management, his country is now dependent upon Colombia for food.Pretty amazing isn't it? Sitting on all that guaranteed wealth and depending largely on one small country for your nations food supply. Chavez could play a large roll on the global leader playing field if he had an IQ just a little above the Forrest range but it's obvious he doesn't.

[loborugger]

Pretty amazing isn't it? Sitting on all that guaranteed wealth and depending largely on one small country for your nations food supply. Chavez could play a large roll on the global leader playing field if he had an IQ just a little above the Forrest range but it's obvious he doesn't.

Education and basic morales count for a lot. Dude places himself in front of his country. Instead of taking care of his citizens, he allies himself with criminals and seeks personal glory at the expense of his nation.

Its a funny thing, isnt it. Take for example US History. Who do we consider our 2 greatest Presidents? Washington and Lincoln. All they wanted to do was make their country better than it was when they started. If Chavez took that angle, he could go down not only as one of greatest leaders of Ven, but as one of the greatest leaders in all of South America. He could actually fulfill his dream of being an heir to Bolivar.

Instead, he seeks to glorify himself. This, I think, will lead history to view him as an asterik and a turd - which in my opinion he is.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Education and basic morales count for a lot. Dude places himself in front of his country. Instead of taking care of his citizens, he allies himself with criminals and seeks personal glory at the expense of his nation.

Its a funny thing, isnt it. Take for example US History. Who do we consider our 2 greatest Presidents? Washington and Lincoln. All they wanted to do was make their country better than it was when they started. If Chavez took that angle, he could go down not only as one of greatest leaders of Ven, but as one of the greatest leaders in all of South America. He could actually fulfill his dream of being an heir to Bolivar.

Instead, he seeks to glorify himself. This, I think, will lead history to view him as an asterik and a turd - which in my opinion he is.I look at the amount of oil wealth he has and look at the UAE. They are luring the largest and richest companies in the world there with huge tax breaks and other stipends. Now, many major world universities are setting up shop there also. Dubai is becoming the world headquarters for business (and becoming richer in the process). Chavez could move his country in a similar direction but apparently has no real formal education other than military training.

[yavoon]

I look at the amount of oil wealth he has and look at the UAE. They are luring the largest and richest companies in the world there with huge tax breaks and other stipends. Now, many major world universities are setting up shop there also. Dubai is becoming the world headquarters for business (and becoming richer in the process). Chavez could move his country in a similar direction but apparently has no real formal education other than military training.

lure evil corporations? hah!

[loborugger]

I look at the amount of oil wealth he has and look at the UAE. They are luring the largest and richest companies in the world there with huge tax breaks and other stipends. Now, many major world universities are setting up shop there also. Dubai is becoming the world headquarters for business (and becoming richer in the process). Chavez could move his country in a similar direction but apparently has no real formal education other than military training.


The difference?

As Calvin Coolidge said, "The business of the UAE is business." The leaders of that country get it.

Per the undereducated, chip on his shoulder, bought into the leftist, socialist doctrine, Chavez says "the business of Venezuela is whatever I say it is."

I was in Dubai during the first Desert Storm. It is simply AMAZING how much that city has grown in 20 years. I wouldnt believe possible that a city could grow that much. I think it was about 50,000 when I got there in 91. According to the UAE's official site, its almost 1.5 million. That was less than 20 years ago!